 Okay, hi everyone. Good evening. My name is Aminayi Keen. I am the chair of the Center for the Study of Pakistan and it's my pleasure to welcome you to tonight's evening in partnership with the Brunei Gallery and it's an extraordinary pleasure actually to be doing this event and to have the opportunity to introduce Faisal Hussein, whose work I've come to know since the exhibition proposal came around and since then having had a chance to not see it in person but to see it virtually, it's very exciting and it connects with my own work as well. I've written a little bit about stereotyping and representation as well and thinking about Islamophobia and those conversations in a variety of contexts from in culture and literature. So this is, and the other thing that I have been a part of is the decolonizing knowledge festival of ideas that we had in the autumn and I think Faisal's work really speaks to a lot of the themes and ideas that we were, are, remain committed to here at SOAS. So thank you very much Faisal for joining us today to talk about your work and I'm going to, Faisal's given me a very humble biography asked him to give me a biography and he's given me only about six lines and I think that's not enough we need more. He says that I create work that questions perceptions undermines lazy stereotypes and highlights missing histories and overlooked his facts, whether in music in a gallery or a sign outside a kebab shop. My cross disciplinary practice is often presented in varied environments to engage with diverse audiences using archive and personal memory as starting points the work explores the representation and understanding of South Asian culture and identity through the media, government, communities and individuals. So hugely important work that Faisal is doing and the current body of work in particular that you have an opportunity to view virtually on the Brunei Gallery website is has been developed in London and Birmingham as social commentary on the current climate of fear identity and racism and the rise of Islamophobia in the UK and Europe. In previous works Faisal has used archive and signage to create public artworks called in inverted commas F full stop light. And the work brought aspects of South Asian heritage and archive onto the British high street placing them specifically at the locations of the very same family businesses and other public spaces. So what I have loved hearing about Faisal's work is the the the kind of mundane things he slips in while talking very excitedly about the more conceptual frameworks and ideas and and he mentioned to me that some of the artwork was transported in the food delivery van and I really like that relationship to this real world that we live in and that we have to have to be socio economically viable in especially in the future post pandemic world that we will come to face that poses lots of challenges and lots of hardships for people everywhere and especially young people. So the other sort of concept the comparative work between London and Birmingham is again something that I'm very excited about and looking forward to hearing more about I think this is something that we are conscious of sitting here in London that we don't dominate the perspective from our from our eye view and that we are in conversation with other cities that are as much a part of Britain's overall kind of makeup and in what ways can we think together you know for our futures and I think Faisal's work presents an opportunity to do that. So the format for this evening will be that Faisal is going to take over the floor as it were and he's going to give you an insight into the title for his talk today and he'll he'll talk for about 15 to 20 minutes I think then we'll have a bit of a chat after that and we'll open it up to Q&A following on from that. So Faisal a very very warm welcome to you thank you so much for being with us here today and we and also can I give a shout out to John Hollingworth in the gallery and Lucy for their wonderful support and all the teams that so as have been working behind the scenes to make this possible so a huge thank you to them and a warm welcome to you Faisal. Thank you Amna thank you very much and yes just to really repeat thank you so much to John and Lucy all at SOAS and the Brunei Gallery for the opportunity. So really the title in terms of anti-racism in art, archives and decolonial I suppose decolonial practice is quite a large one I immediately regretted it after our conversation but I'll try my best to connect the dots as best as I can so I'll probably just first just go through a bit of a background of myself, my practice, suspect objects and then talk a little bit more about my engagement with art and academia and then also some of the actual what I deem as my decolonial practice. So as I've as you've mentioned I'm an artist based here in Birmingham and graduated from Falmouth Art College in Cornwall between 96 and 99. I believe I was the southernmost South Asian person on the British Isles for all of those years but it gave me a very interesting insight into I suppose awareness of difference otherness, being away from Birmingham, running away from Birmingham to really find out more about the kind of voice that I wanted to develop and the kinds of things that I wanted to say through my work. There weren't many reference points for me in terms of our history and in terms of really the contemporary landscape but Rashid Arayne who was the founder of the Black Arts movement and third text was a pivotal part of my education and also kept me grounded in some of the work that I was doing and then what would be my eventual graduate exhibition which was basically peppered with references that could bring my parents with me in a way, that works that had a resonance to my identity and had a resonance to why I was there and also has appeared the payback to say look mum and dad I have you know there are aspects of this that are applicable to us and who I am. So finishing from there moving back to Birmingham really worked within business, worked within variety of all artists do a variety of different weird wonderful jobs. I was very lucky to have a family business to work with which involved everything from, excuse me, driving you know kind of vans through to market trading through to working at the wholesale market and this gave me a kind of understanding on how to be able to talk to people and how to be able to talk to them on a level. I then went on to work at the Drum Arts Centre, which was pivotal in terms of really giving me understanding of black history, contemporary black history locally and nationally, understanding or having a certain amount of political background of what the history of that tradition is in Birmingham, things like the Indian Workers Association, the Asian youth movements, another kind of cross cultural cultural movements and organizations. And this was on basically around the time that 9-11 occurred. And 9-11 really compacted a lot of the things that I was learning to do with the history of black struggle within the UK and eventually became a very real horrific film in some ways where anti-Muslim hatred, the kind of hatred even that we see now began occurring. So really my engagement then back into practice occurred at that point, me wanting to create work that I suppose responded to what things were going on and one of the things that allowed me to do that was studying the history of music in Birmingham. I created a history of hip-hop and also a banger in Birmingham and it allowed me to be able to research things from a non-eurocentric kind of way. And that was really I suppose the first instance where I started thinking that I should return to my own practice. And in returning to my own practice, I was lucky enough to be able to visit East London and work at Richmix and access the Innova library. In fact, I think it was a gentleman called Nicholas Brown who was the librarian that allowed me to be able to access that, Innova allowed me to access those materials. And suspect objects really that this work came about actually through a project around gentrification of Brick Lane. The project was initially going and speaking to shop owners about you've got a shop next to you with seven pounds cereal being sold. And also because of the fact that I used to pick up leather jackets from Brick Lane, I had an affinity to some of the shop owners. And actually they said, well, first of all, you know, the things that are beginning to affect us is racism. We're beginning to see this increase and there is something really untoward about that. And as I collected more information and oral histories from them, I also was feeling the effect of certain parts of that myself. The Islamophobia within media, the pervasive way the government were kind of being able to or beginning to kind of victimize communities. So suspect objects really came about through that research work. And I'm just going to quickly share my screen highlights really now, I suppose some of the pieces that everyone can kind of go and see now because the exhibition is online at suspectobjects.com. So I'm going to share a couple of the works and just give a quick description of those that I think are pertinent. So I think that has been shared. Can everyone see it? This is Project Champion, which is one of the works in the Suspect Objects exhibition. In 2008, more than 200 so-called spy cameras were installed in the largely Muslim areas of Birmingham, but that covered Washwood Heath, Sparkbrook, Moseley and King's Heath. And around that time I was working within Spark Hill and where I live in King's Heath. So these were really on my doorstep. And they were basically given about £3 million of government funds, which were earmarked for tackling terrorism. And due to a campaign that was mounted by local people, including I think it was actually mounted by a gentleman called Steve Jolly, who dubbed the spy cameras as covert and that they were an invasion of people's privacy. They were eventually taken down in 2011 at a cost of I think another £0.5 million. So almost £3.5 million was spent on this surveillance network that was the beginning or partly the beginning of what was then to become the prevent program. And for those who don't know what prevent is, prevent is a multi-agency program looking to stop individuals from becoming terrorists, essentially, or radicalised, but it's been described as other things such as toxic, racist, Islamophobic and creating a kind of us and them. And I don't want to get too much into prevent but I'll kind of talk about it later. But anyway, the campaign was allowed to run and these cameras were then taken down and then sold, I believe, at the Ramada Hotel somewhere in Sutton Coldfield for literally pennies. Another work in suspect objects that looks at this kind of subject matter is Ahmed's clock. Excuse me, Ahmed's clock or Ahmed Muhammad was actually a 14-year-old child in Texas who deconstructed a clock and presented it as a project to his teacher who then basically called the police thinking that it was a bomb that had been delivered. So he was then handcuffed and taken to the police station, I believe, for a number of hours and was terrified, obviously, as a 14-year-old. And it was this piece of work was looking at the fact that even very mundane things, as you mentioned, can become almost loaded. And I wanted to visualize those kinds of suspicions by looking at the more mundane and really stupid ways that objects could be interpreted in the context of Islamophobia and racism. The third and final one, which example is Gove's horse, which I suppose a number of people will be familiar with the Trojan horse scandal based again in Birmingham in 2014. A letter appeared appearing to refer to this kind of operation Trojan horse operation by a plot by a number of Muslim groups to install governors at schools. It claimed to be ousting her teachers. And there were a number of inquiries that were launched, namely one of the most important was the Clark report headed by, I can't remember the gentleman's mob, Clark, but I can't remember his first name, but Michael Gove was a real linchpin of this process. And this horse, Gove's horse, attributed to him is, I suppose, a metaphor around why almost 2,300 people lost their education, numerous teachers lost their jobs, people were toyed with, people were manipulated. And this is a kind of, I suppose, an indication of what that is. So, in terms of this work, and in terms of the complexities of a lot of the work that I've found, I'm not an academic. But being able to access the research has been pivotal in moving the work on and through educating myself but also through making the work a little bit more complex, because of the fact that it raises certain issues. One of the ways, kind of, that I've been able to engage with academia luckily was by being approached by Lung Theatre and Professor John Homewood, who actually was an expert witness for the defence in cases that were bought by the National College of Teaching and Leadership, I think it was. And he collected, I believe, or I think the play that this is, that the Trojan Horse, this is a Trojan Horse play, my work toured with it. And it was written by Helen Mux and Matt Woodhead. It was based on, it was a verbatim theatre piece based on 200 hours of interviews with about 90 witnesses. And I saw really parallels between the work that I was doing and what these guys were doing in the way that really there was a need to be able to approach and get witness, get kind of real reactions from communities, rather than theatre museums and art galleries living in the hills like a giant. These things were part of a process that I really rated and loved. So the Trojan Horse actually played toured for a number of years, I think for two years, and one of my pieces toured with it. And this was a great way of, for me, it was an education, being able to understand different processes and what other people were doing. A second example of really where I'm trying to engage with academia. It's a project I'm currently working on with the University of Birmingham and Eastside projects. And that is based as kind of Birmingham is a case study for broader developments and issues in urban planning counterterrorism and security and how, how that plays out in the public space. So it's actually a group exhibition with four other artists and informed with four or five other academics working in specific fields from urban planning, sociology, work around urban terrorism counterterrorism. I'm really trying to engage with their research using their research and trying to inform the art pieces. But this is, I'm not going to talk too much about this because I may get into trouble, but there is this will be forthcoming in the next month. And something that I'll be looking forward to. So, yes, so really the final part of what I'd like to mention is work around decolonialization and what I see as my decolonial practice. So I'm just going to heart back a little bit to when I'm speaking about finding information from, I suppose, the local community and engaging the local community in terms of what their experiences and what their histories were. So I lost my grandfather a few years back and in approximately 2010, I think it was. Due to that loss, there was an inherent need to be able to find out stories to do with the intergenerational kinds of relationships between South Asian fathers, grandfathers and sons. I wanted to explore and find the parallels between really my life and other peoples. So I see decolonial practice as a collection of knowledge from our elders, the people that we live with now, before they are gone and creating, I suppose, work of their experiences and ours simultaneously. And there is a need for it specifically now within the current context because, and there is a lot of, because of the fact of really what we've seen in the last few years. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in quite a dynamic resourceful way. So I'm this project I'm particularly proud of because we were able to collect actually information from a number of individuals here that unfortunately some of who aren't with us anymore. And that's why this practice has now become pivotal to what I see as my decolonial practice. It's actually what some people may call cultural engagement. I don't really see it as that. I see archive as a form of resistance and grassroots. It's been called all sorts of things, grassroots, archivism, activism, etc. But it's a great way of being able to counter the narrative of racist ideologies, especially when it comes to say things like the armed forces, things like Muslim soldiers are very interesting. And that in that realm. But going back to really the projects. There are a number of different individuals that were interviewed in this project. And out of this flight came about which is what I think I'm going to you mentioned earlier on where the archive was taken out of the museum out of the project onto the street. This is a photo of Dr Memo Basmi, who was the person who released the first or the newspaper based at Saltly, Saltly News. And I wanted to champion him but also other individuals who unsung heroes in a way, but using the aesthetics of trading, you know, which is what a lot of Asian people are often known for. These are placed outside of people's businesses, but also just outside, you know, kind of on the high street. I've constantly said that really racism. Racism within kind of arts and so on and so forth racism for me as a material that can be used and manipulated in different ways that can be turned inside out. We can analyse how it shapeshifts how it works in institutions until it becomes nonsense and we can create work out of that but in the same way we can also, I suppose look at making our experiences also much more of a, I suppose revolutionary endeavor by, by really excavating the kinds of things that hopefully I'm kind of showing here. And the final project actually that I worked on the last project should I say I worked on was the history of Asian youth culture. And again, this was really looking at a much more wholesome, a whole, a whole, a myriad of variety of different things from political outlooks, political movements through to cultural associations. So I think we can create much more of an anthology of different areas from the fifties through to the present day. So, yes, I think without really to conclude I think reframing these kinds of narratives and being able to respond to the way people presented is really important for my kind of work and for the work that I want to create. I think reforming reframing should I say of arts and cultural institutions is underway I think if that doesn't happen quick enough there are other spaces. There are the roads in the houses and the businesses that we reside in and we can intervene and show who we are through those. So, for me that's really where I'm at and where hopefully, hopefully I can kind of, hopefully I can build on. So, I hope that's of use and yes, I just wanted to say thank you really and this is I am presenting a lot of this work but actually there is a team behind me, which I'm very, very grateful for. And they, you know, as well as family and friends, but in particular that I have, I'm very lucky to have a very good network of people here in Birmingham, who kind of believe in the work and I'm really grateful for that and, as I said, really grateful to be able to show this stuff. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Bessel. There's so much in there and so much that is of interest and speaks at so many levels. I just want to pick up a few things that you've been talking about and let me I've been furiously making some notes while you were speaking from the point of when you point at which you spoke about graduating from Falmouth in Cornwall. And I'd like you to take us through that a little bit. So, your home is Birmingham, and you're in Cornwall. What does that mean in terms of race, the experience of race? Do you, I mean, and I asked this out of empathy as well because I'm married to a family in Devon so it kind of feels when you go to the countryside and you experience England in the countryside, it's a very different place. And I'm not saying that people in Devon are racist or anything like that, but it's just a different world. It is not a city. It's like London or Birmingham. It's what so it would be interesting to hear your experiences and I know you're at a university that in itself is a kind of different type of microcosm. But did you feel that there was that you were still growing up in that environment that you were in or was there a huge shift in terms of who you were? There was definitely a huge shift. You have to be able to, you know, to an extent there's a certain amount of camouflage that one has to use when essentially you have yourself in the scene and really a very small community of people. So my, you know, I was, this is late 90s. This is rape culture. This is free parties. This is, you know, I was, it was a very peculiar, well, an interesting but a very peculiar, you know, a very free place to be. I was singing in pubs. I was doing cover versions in pubs with a guitarist at one point. There was, you know, I was DJing sound plashes. We'd have, you know, there was sound, you'd have to make your own entertainment. So there was a, there was a way of being able to really be quite free in a way without too many, I suppose, really legal kind of restrictions. But in terms of who I am and what it was like being the southernmost, the southernmost South Asian, it was really difficult. Mentally it was traumatic at times. And I was very, very lucky to have one or two individuals that really were able to keep me, keep me going. In hindsight, I'm glad that I had the courage to do it. But, you know, would I want to sell us or the London School of Art or something like that? Maybe. I think I know Cornwall is changing. I know that that institution found that particularly somewhere I want to revisit. But yeah, I mean, it was like moving back in time. So there were parallels between the stuff that I read to do with black history and the experience that I'd come out of, as anyone would come out of being of colour and living within the countryside. There are people that are a lot better versed than me who've lived in Devon all their lives as a black person. And I think you just have to find coping mechanisms. Art is a brilliant way of being able to do it. And luckily, I came through it just about in the end. I wish I'd worked harder, honestly. Thanks. Thanks for being very open about that, Faisal, I think. And you've communicated that very nicely in terms of how the landscape is so inspiring and where you are. And it's also about the city life and provincial life, isn't it? Those kind of changes to the pace of life, to a way of life. The food, and I know food is a big part of your journey, of your artistic journey as much as it is a part of your economic journey as well, if I've understood it correctly. So could you tell us then about, you mentioned identity, right? And when you were talking about identity, and you talked about business, and this is where I'm kind of why I thought of the food connection and your art connection. And you talked about how to talk to people on a level. And you know what it made me think of? It made me think of right now when the government says all the time levelling up, right? Or COVID, you know, levelling up, levelling down. What does that mean? What does that even mean? Do you see a kind of false consciousness around levelling up? Did you feel, I mean, do you think that has some kind of resonance in the work that you do, or do you feel that that was, when you were talking to people on a level, what does that, can you sort of elaborate a little bit? No, absolutely. So I grew up selling leather jackets with my grandfather, with my father and my grandfather. I wasn't there every week, Dad, if you're listening, I know I wasn't there every week. But there is a part of, I think a lot of South Asian lives, which means getting involved with the day-to-day survivors, whether that's in a corner shop, in a business or whatever, you need to be able to speak to people, not just sell to people but speak to people, engage with people. And I grew up watching how my grandfather and my father would engage with people. That was my introduction to, how do these guys really deal with society? Because I go to school, I understand that. But how do we deal with things on the street? How do we deal with gaining a certain amount of trust? And the thing about markets and the thing about the shopfront, I think is where really the subaltern or the migrant introduces himself to the population. And I feel that there's a certain amount of play involved in that. There's a certain amount of trust and levelling. If you want to call it levelling, it's the aspect of how do you gain a person's trust to know or to feel an affinity with you, empathy with you. These kinds of triggers or these kinds of human interactions are really what or how I was brought up. I was brought up in that way of dealing with people in this kind of open and generous way. And that's why a lot of the work references, how do you display yourself on the street? A lot of the signs in a way are statements that I'm kind of still saying while on the shop floor, it feels like. You know, see it say it racist or go back to where you hate from is a response to a racist customer in my shop. But the key thing I think is that this conversation is taking place. And even if it may not be taking place in the way that it should, art in the third place, this third place that art is, and academia actually is, is I think is a great way of. Of readjusting that level of responding or talking truth to power of being able to alleviate grievances, ridiculing racism, it's all there, you know. I know I think that's really important because what you're what I think you're talking about there is also about the structures of racism that exist in society or in terms of when when it is when leveling up is talked about and it's talked about social economic contexts and it's talked about a certain exposure of the me communities in the pandemic and then there is this sense that there is an evening out because of the pandemic well structures that are embedded in society as you're pointing out I can't show that that's that's a bit of a perhaps easy assumption to make and it's not really how things work or how things have people have experienced them as you've been narrating them and talking about them so I think that sort of comes out quite strongly in your work. Another thing I wanted to pick up about your work with regards to growing up in Birmingham and and sort of located quite a lot, a lot of your work in Birmingham, and you talk about the Asian context of pangra is Birmingham and I think there's also someone there for Smarney has put a comment in, could you talk about the hipster racism or hipster exceptionalism that people are people are experiencing in Birmingham and in the London East End. Is it the same across the UK where these artists quarters are being used to push a gentrification agenda so there's you know that kind of context as well, but I'm also thinking about, you know, how does the Asian context, the only context that is central to growing up in Birmingham, or are the other identities and colors that one come that kind of notion of blackness as well as whiteness. How do you mix with those both in your practice and both in your experiences that have been there. I mean you go looking for it in a way or that's just a part of growing up in Birmingham there are. I'm really proud of my city in that way because we have a history of steel pulse. We're coming from steel pulse through to gerand gerand through to even more contemporary kind of aspects now with the streets and other other other kind of especially the crime scenes well, which which you know as a second home here in Birmingham. So, how do you negotiate those things I mean people talk about code switching quite a lot people talk about the fact that you are multilingual in your city, if you associate and if you explore your city properly. And I think this whole aspect of what is multicultural what is multi multi multicultural really, I know the terms very loaded but being able to immerse yourselves in these sub worlds within the city is phenomenal. So no, the age in fact if anything, you know, I'm not going to break down my percentages that's for other individuals to kind of estimate I'm not really in that business but for instance one of one of my very dear friends is is a, you know, one would say a legend of the graffiti world in in in Birmingham, a gentleman called you know kind of juice one to six so he's, you know, he's someone who educates me in terms of that. But then I also have a friend who is a research psychologist who is constantly you know from from an English background from Kingsie who would who will tell me about. I suppose the different triggers to do with advertising and marketing. Then I have another friend who's actually serious you know so these these these these kinds of multicultural demarcations in in Birmingham are very apparent. I'm very grateful for them but I don't. I mean, they're different for everyone you know they're different to whoever it's just that I've been lucky enough in a way to pursue black history or the history of hip hop because I've been interested in hip hop. So that's led me to these kinds of different connections. But then I've also had a real understanding where is my position within black politics and struggle, the radical tradition, which has led me to Asian youth movements and being introduced to individuals who have been involved politically in those things. So I've been very lucky in the way that there was a very rich texture and history to Birmingham that hasn't been lauded but luckily my, I suppose, my exposure to different areas has allowed me to do that so my, my parents actually owned a shop on Soho Road in in the hands with in the hands with area in the late 90s as well. But then I've also worked in an office in Spark Hill, which is Stratford Road to the south part of Birmingham, predominantly Muslim north part predominantly Morsi. I've also worked in Newtown, which is predominantly a black, you know, kind of an African Caribbean kind of various so it's all out there if you want to engage. It's all out there if you want that to become a part of your future and so on and I think that's something that Birmingham is really, really good at. And it's not diluted down to this kind of diversity washed identity either it's still raw it's still very much, you know, historically based and I'm really grateful for that, making up part of part of who I am. So, I'm sorry, does that answer the question? I hope that answers kind of a question around identity, but it's always a bit of a, always a bit of a question. No, no, I think that's that's very, you've given us a very important mapping of the way you map the city or the way you walk the city to understand how you engage with it and I think you have to remember that we're some of us are experiencing it through the news media like Birmingham is is the place where sort of, you know, Trojan horse happens or things like that. And how you get the stabbings and you get you get the kind of negative stories don't you which is the stereotype which is gets reiterated again and again and how do we move beyond that and your work I think is very important in helping us to think through that. And I mean there's lots more that I want to ask but I'm conscious that they're people also waiting with questions and putting them in the chat box so please can I remind people to keep putting that question at the wonderful audience who's patiently listening to us having this conversation to keep putting your questions in I'm going to come to them in a minute and and there's like you know I wish we had more time and I can talk to you a little bit more about the Trojan horse. And I think it's very important that you understand the scandal and and your art practice around that the play that emerged from it, the engagement that you offered and I think some somebody put in the chat box at some point about the of the work that you then undertake when you undertake a critique of prevent did you. I mean, was that something that you felt because of the identity of who you are and what your context is does that make it complicated, or does that make it more urgent. I think it makes it laugh the latter it makes it much more urgent I think, you know, I don't think there's anything you know, it's, I have no, I don't really know how to answer that because, you know, prevent prevent strategy is proving itself to be ineffective in a number of different ways so it's doing my work for me I'm just highlighting certain instances of it so I don't fear and I don't I'm not fearful of anything or anyone for that matter, but my I suppose what I was trying to say my in my presentation and what I'm quickly learning is that there are academics that are working in this sphere and I have to respect that I have to read a lot more to do with the kind of the effectiveness and what is going on with prevent and also what is going on with how it works out in out in the public sphere with organizations so I do want to be measured in responses. A lot of these are just, you know, a lot of the works are just responses to races as a person of color that that's it, you know, they are, they are those things. But if, if really I wanted to go into detracting and dismantling what prevent if you want to talk about surveillance. I always talk about it inadequacies and so on and there are, there are forums like prevent watch, for instance, and other organizations that are actually set up to be able to question those things and I would, I would say that I would hope that maybe the works could be an in road to finding out from much more people than myself around, around such complexities but I think one has to have courage especially now. And this isn't correct this is, you know, for me, this could be seen as courageous but there are people in Pakistan right now who are who are talking about, you know, who are being a lot more courageous than I am there are individuals in in in different parts of the world who are being a lot more courageous so I think one also has to put these things in perspective as well. Mm hmm. Sure, sure. I think that's. Yeah, I mean I've, I've not sort of stuck research prevents specifically but it was a something that came up again and again in a research project that I was involved in on the question of Muslims trust and and in a sense it sort of is the elephant in the room whether you talk about it or you don't talk about it and it, it affects young people in ways that are very, very difficult in negotiating identity in negotiating a relationship to Britain as a place as a home as as a community in the community changes relationships with parents changes all those sorts of things with with regards to belonging and feeling at home. So I think critiques are very important because they do hopefully reach out and and go out to to the sort of people writing up these policies and saying that perhaps, you know, we need to rethink this this isn't. I just wanted to I just wanted to interrupt. So actually, the lucky thing is that I've actually managed to see a lot of very. Let's say, colorful writing academic writing around prevent. Yeah. And, like, my responses are really just very initial. I see myself in the text. Not just I know you mentioned young people but I also see myself in the text as I read it. And when you when you read quotes like, you know, that the official prevent training emphasizes, it might be nothing but it could be something within its training manual when it says things like, you know, when it when it mentions things like pre crime risk. These kinds of terminologies are seen as the but you know, seen as, you know, kind of normal. And I just find it astounding that that critique is not, you know, it is being provided but it's not being seen in a way. So hopefully this work can help with that. Yeah, absolutely. So I think so then just before I open it up one last question was a question that was related to the later work that you shared with us of your forthcoming collaborations as well as your work. And it's something that a lot of my students have been extremely interested in. And I think your work also I was quite struck with I'm quite struck with there's there's a lot of emphasis on masculinity and men within it and the relationship amongst men, and sons, and the youth, youth sort of history of Asian youth culture that you're referring to also had that picture of a young man. And I was interested in that point that you made about intergenerational conversations because that is the point that comes up quite a lot with my Asian students about intergenerational wanting to work intergenerational converse sort of, you know, ethnographies or that is something that they desperately really want to do. So I just thought I'd share that with you. I mean, it's not particularly a question but maybe. Well, the thing is that I think, you know, coming from a very patriarchal background for fathers and for mothers should have happened for mothers unfortunately couldn't happen but it's something that we want to do in the future. So I'm very sorry about that actually because coming from a very patriarchal based kind of system it was really an emotive reaction. It's the fact that really fathers South Asian fathers generally don't have this kind of what's the word truthful emotional conversations about the mistakes that they've made, or the all the successes that they've had because everything around us is to do with humility, humbleness, a kind of sense of pride. You know, we've come here off our own volition will work will do what we've got to do. And for me, there was so much more that had to be excavated because we lose them, and we can't be with them and we need these lessons, especially to live within within Britain, I think. And so that's really where where the. That's what the project really was an opinion by And I like that sort of play on the blue plaque that you've got with your signage that's going on with with the figures. Anyway, I'm going to what I'm going to do in our vessel is I'm going to start reading out some questions from the chat box. Okay, if that's all right, and I don't know if you want to grab a pen and paper. Would you like me to sort of read out a bunch of them and then you put out some responses. Yes, or we could do one by one. Well, whatever. There are a few few here. Okay, so I'm going to go from from the one that's come in last from Rona French who's an immigration Birmingham based immigration solicitor, thanking you for the work and wondering whether you had any projects work or future projects engaging with the impact of the Home Office intrusion on individuals lives here or Home Office surveillance for example people needing to expose themselves to a high level of scrutiny anytime they apply for status. So, that's a question. I can do want to answer that. I don't have any projects around or future projects, but I can share that. One of one of my dear friends, again, who was a great resource who works within providing free law advice for new migrants is engaged with a number of different homes. And through videos that he's shown me of when he's felt, I suppose, under threat or when people that have been working with migrants have felt under threat by contractors should we say Home Office contractors. I've often had to go through recordings of what contractors have said, and some of them are, you know, make quite interesting listening. That is something potentially I'd like to work on in the future. That's like the front line of of how the civil liberties for for migrants are being affected from from someone who's working directly with them. So hopefully that's something that I could look at soon. Okay, great. Thank you. I'm going to pick up a question from Asma Hussain, who is a student at SOAS. And she says, thanks you for your work and experiences in terms of the question is, in terms of maintaining creative integrity, have you had to navigate any demands, whether veiled or explicit of watering down the message of your work to appeal to funders and cultural institutions that have historically only included black, Asian and ethnically diverse artists, when they are considered as having cross cross audience appeal. That's a great question. So no, I haven't had to. I think the strength in the work is the fact that hopefully it doesn't do that. I am very aware that diversity washing of dynamic or what maybe not dynamic. I'm sure they said that, but all this kind of work is something that is apparent. I don't think I'm going to be sponsored by Rolex anytime soon, nor do I want to be, but I think anyone from Rolex please sponsor him. I was going to say the, yeah, I think it's a great question because I think the co-option of, we've seen this co-option happen again and again, especially within the arts, saris, samosas, steel bands, let, you know, there is this kind of thing that is rolled out constantly. And that's that seems to be a really good, you know, a really good way of getting good funding. Like it's, it is the tried and tested method of, and I think there's a space for certain work like that maybe for certain audiences, but no, not me. I've not received any, any problems so far if anything, people have been really supportive. And if anything, yeah, nothing of real just thinking. No, nothing, nothing has come about yet of any real significance that, that stops me from, you know, kind of getting on with what I need to get on with. Okay, thanks. Some appreciation from Ash for bringing back some memories of art and popular culture of 80s Birmingham. Darren says, great. Thank you. And Javeria says thanks for sharing and can relate to it. There's a question from Nadine Zubair. Fessel, do your exhibitions have a place in rural England? How do you think they would be received, which says she's enjoying the conversation? Oh, thank you. Yes, there is definitely a space for them. One of the projects that I haven't shown was in Margate last year. And Margate and Phanet in particular is special because of a special kind of Nigel Farage who came to prominence around there. UKIP came to prominence there and it also became like the frontline fight almost of taking our country back. And I actually went and put up signs to do with immigration and to do with migration and to do with these kinds of subject matters on that on a road called North Down Road, which also has a masjid, has a mask, has a variety of different kind of art spaces, really great people down there. Some amazing artists now also moving down there. And yes, it was received really, really well, but it does need to be out in the sticks. But obviously Cornwall is in my crosshairs, if you pardon the pun, at the moment. Okay. Great. Thanks. There's a Irini says very Irini Gunnu. I don't know if I'm pronouncing the name right. Very interesting presentation big thank you from Athens and Greece. Question from Monica Clark, your exhibition of the pistols. What does that mean to you as there are many. Right. So the Muslim Ray guns are a sculptural essentially reenactment of a meme that was created by an EDL March. And I think that was probably 2010 2011. Quite an inebriated marcher was kind of interviewed about why he was there. And in his slurring speech, kind of was able to utter the words Muslimic Reagan. And then the internet exploded around this, this poor, well, he's not poor guys race this guy. And the Muslim Reagan was the moniker used to essentially make him look pretty foolish. So I created sculptural versions of them. They were the first ones, the first work that was created to do with how can I ridicule racism. And how can I manifest it. So I created it as as a meme, a sculptural meme. Okay, there is a I know we're at seven o'clock so we're going if vessel you're okay, we'll continue with the questions and audience members. If you some of you want to leave because you have things to do please feel free to do so those who have time will will continue to take as many of your questions as we can. And I have vessel respond to them so thank you for for being so interactive and for sending all of this stuff in it this is great. Colin and there is Palmer sends a question very good talk wonder if you could talk more about why art like yours is so important in this climate. It's rare we see dissenting voices now so in these times, do you think art becomes a bit of a life raft for people. And also if I can add you know at a time when artists facing a massive funding crisis due to COVID. And thank you Colin. Colin is by your actual friend friend of mine and thank you for this Colin. Yes, I mean, art is not only is it a raft and not only is it a survival mechanism but it's like I mentioned before third space, where the kinds of contradictions that are being engaged with can be worked out visually can be worked out in a way that can have human resonance and a resonance that hopefully everyone can begin to understand and engage with. And that's why yes it is it is a survival and I think you see that now within lockdown. People are beginning to understand the value of the third space psychologically and the value of being able to express oneself and to and to feel alive. We've seen that with Grayson Perry and his art show now with Anthony Gormley and his window kind of show where people can really be free when they can't be free physically. And then the context of really what you said I'll know in terms of the funding crisis and in terms of what's happening I think as a nation we're beginning to understand what why the arts exist. And I hope that with everything that's occurred we will see why, you know, cavemen were painting on you know on the walls that we, we will begin to understand why arts is so relevant so important to provide a reflection of who we are what we are, and what we want to be. Yeah absolutely and I think art can help us hopefully to break down the silos that we seem to love to to kind of stay with due to the ways that the structures of education or funding work in in terms of disciplines and categories and science, you know, we've got the coronavirus pandemic right now we're going to have a mental health pandemic after this aren't we so art and science are going to have to work very closely together to to kind of bring about a renewal of people as we move forward. There's an appreciation from a message from Celeste thanking you for the event and shouting out that she's a black artist living in Brick Lane studying performance and culture she loves your work. Now the next two questions I'm going to put together if that's all right with you. There's a question from Mara Shoaib and she wants you to explain the red flag in the exhibit and I'm so glad she's asked this question. What does it signify and who the words we know what you are doing are aimed at. And I'm connecting this with a question from Hamja Assan to all saying, hasn't the meaning of Asian changed with rise of Modi Hindutva and BJP. And because the red flag is also connected to Asia, so I thought I'd, I'd stick the two together if that's all right. No, that's fine. And so yes, the work is an additional work and it's, it's a response to the genocide occurring within China, from what I understand, are vegan Muslims. We know what you were doing is has been described as lazy actually as well by individuals but I don't think it is I think it's an immediate response to one of the most surveyed countries on earth. They know what everyone is doing within their country all the time. I think it's only second to maybe the UK, or maybe the UK is after them. So it's a direct, it's a direct kind of piece of work that deals with the fact that no one is talking. They are of late recently, but no one has been talking about the the Uighurs in Xinjiang in China. So that is what that work really was relevant to and about. And I'm also interested in being able to now begin to use different mouths and I'm quite interested now in flags, due to the rise of nationalism and there are a couple of other flags that will be making an appearance in hopefully future work. It seems flags seem to be so important to people. And then secondly in terms of Hamza's question about what Asian means, and especially in the context of Mordi. I think this is probably linked a little bit to China as well that the obvious, the obvious kinds of moves being made, or the genocides that are occurring within places like India, and China and Myanmar, that we have seen where no one has responded to them, I mean that there is a, I suppose a need to reclaim the terminology of what an Asian is, of what an Asian person is, but then also understand the fact that the other terminologies or the my identification of what I am as an Asian, if I use the tradition of the Asian in comparison to what an Asian person is with relevance to specifically to South Asia may be slightly different. I think it reminds me of actually an artist in in Pakistan who who told me that, you know, work you guys you guys are always working about identity crisis and this and that and which I find quite offensive actually I find it quite a throat is we're called one name here when we're here and we call one name when we go back. But the point is is that, for me, and for my politics anyway, the term Asian, now that it's now that I am from the not derived as a black person but I am now a person of color. But I'm also Asian, but maybe I'm also Bain, but maybe I'm also a number of other things I find that these terminologies are quite elastic and can be had fun with as long as I suppose there is a differentiation so I don't know really what I'm trying to say that I don't think I've really got an answer in the context of more than I don't really understand the question fully. Is it that I'm saying that the term Asian has been taken over by more than is that what he's I'm not sure if you're still there you can put your response in the chat. I think I think there's an interesting question to ask about Islamophobia as well in movies, India, and the context of the lets and you know it becomes very sort of a much larger question, perhaps not a question that you're necessarily thinking of right now in your exhibition but something that you might wish to come back on. There's a question from Sehf Asmani or there's a comment. I don't know if you want to respond to this or not. I saw your exhibition at the rich mix that's been accused of social exclusion. I love the exhibition by the way uncomfortable context. You can respond or we can move on to the next question. I don't know I don't really think I will respond to that hopefully it wasn't socially exclusive but there are other exhibitions I guess. So the question from Help at Shani. I don't think their name is there Islamophobia is only one aspect of racism. Unfortunately racism is much greater problem than what was presented when I first came to London. I was referred to as bloody foreigner and I am not Muslim. Okay so that's a comment I guess if you want to. Okay so I think we've sort of looked at most of the questions there and there's a question from Summon. Please can you talk about your transforming narratives experience of going to meet other artists in Pakistan. We haven't talked much about your Pakistani context so this is your opportunity. Thank you for the question Summon. So I was really lucky to go to Pakistan early last year. This was just as there were the kind of intonations of the pandemic and it was a research trip with the British Council and to meet with other artists. But I had gone really in my capacity as an artist partly but more in the capacity of true form projects which is the organisation that works a bit more with heritage. But I was very very lucky to meet with and see the side of the city and cities that I'd only ever known when I was very young so I lived in Karachi for the first three to three years of my life. And I remember very fondly really a variety of different things from riding on the back of a motorbike through to eating kulfi at Hawkes Bay. So Pakistan but it was a very very different experience going to Pakistan in the context of going there with the British Council it was obviously because of certain rules and regulations. It was a very different experience but I'm very happy to say that the kind of work that is being produced now in Pakistan is amazing, especially contemporary work, especially things like the Lahore Biennale, the Karachi Biennale, especially things that are coming out of Beacon House University, vassal arts based in Karachi and numerous other kind of curators and especially artists that are now becoming a lot more visible. So I'm really excited by the possibility of working. And also just to mention Rishi Dharain actually Rishi Dharain actually studied at the, I think it was the National Engineering School in Karachi so there is another link to the British godfather of black art the black arts movement to Karachi as well. So these are these kinds of links are really beautiful to be able to now find to be able to track my journey almost in parallel the same way as forefathers did so. It was amazing I can't wait to get back to Pakistan. I can't wait my uncle's there actually at the moment is very lucky. Wonderful to to hear that vessel and we hope that you will get an opportunity to to have those kind of as part of your decolonizing journey I think it's such a rich heritage as well as a complicated route to negotiate in terms of sharing knowledge and how you connect with other artists and how ownership and all those questions come up don't they in in sort of those exchanges between, as you said, going from here as an official representative and then being from there as a kind of person through family connections and through context so lots of really important. sort of threads to to all of that and I hope that your journeys will get us and other artists like yourselves more and more bring those artists into our spaces as much as your art into their spaces it would be wonderful to I think see that kind of reverse exchanges as much as possible. There's a question from kafir Mohammed saying with your suspect objects project being inspired by the gentrification of brick Lane, what is your view of the save brick Lane movement, and are you involved in the movement, and she thanks you for your work. Thank you very much. I'm sorry to say I'm not aware of the movement. The, so just to clarify really, it was because I mentioned brick Lane because I went down to do a project on gentrification and then it changed to Islamophobia on the basis of your activities that I collected so that that's how it kind of changed the aspects of gentrification just occurred around I think it was just around the time that the serial cafe had had its windows put through if anyone remembers that on brick Lane. And that that had occurred and I shifted tack at that point because of really the fact that other people had more or just different, I suppose, precious so, but I'm interested to know a little bit more about what that movement is, especially now as London undergoes this kind of peculiar change. We're seeing it here in Birmingham to an extent as well. And yeah. Okay. So I think this is a conversation that we will be possibly going on for a very long time so I'm conscious of time and and also, there are lots of people expressing their appreciation and comments in the chat box. So what I think we could do first of all is now maybe take the last couple of questions and then call things to a halt if that's all right. There's question or comment from my hand about saying I was interested in what you were saying about racism as a material that can be used in different ways. Could you say more on racism in cities towns as sometimes I feel they are seen as safer spaces, but I've experienced lots of racism growing up in London. Well, firstly, I'm sorry to hear that. That's, that's obviously a very bad thing to hear. I think, um, you know, from my understanding racism still occurs in cities. The racism that occurs in the suburbs, or rural kind of places is, you know, is the same race. It's exactly the same race. It's just the context maybe slightly changed the environment might be slightly changed. In terms of reading what more to say on it is, I'm very sorry to say something that often can occur. You know, kind of in very strange, weird and wonderful ways now we're beginning to understand that the structures that we are a part of also racism and habits those racism is not something that jumps out at you and tries to mug your spits on you necessarily it's not just that it's something that has so many weird and wonderful forms and I think we need to understand and have a good working knowledge from all of our different backgrounds on how you deal with those things. So, for instance, the detox museums movement that is currently gathering pace about how we can engage with museums and art galleries. But then also how racism plays out within maybe the prevent duty within universities. Then also you have, you know, kind of, there are places that an active individuals and organizations that are working to combat it and I would, you know, I would say to you that there are plenty of people that you can reach out to and maybe get information from and and also online there'll be plenty of toolkits and what they are now beginning to be plenty of places for people to go to be able to respond to racism. And obviously also the authorities, but I'm really sorry to hear of racism growing up especially in London. Yeah, sadly, I can empathize with that and sort of say that things in London are not fantastic. It's perhaps it's a city where one also comes to recognize the self and other context in many ways, in difficult ways. I just want to point out that lots of people have put their contact details in the chat box. So hopefully Lucy I think will be saving this I'm pretty sure because we're recording this that the chat will be saved. So there's an opportunity for you to connect with people and for me. And so the, the, and I think one of the things I also wanted to raise is when we're talking about race and Islamophobia and it's, we're talking about, obviously places where this is happening in a context where you're not the in the majority or it's part of minority politics and minority identification. And there's also the inverse Islamophobia that is present within Muslim nations themselves and I suppose the context here is are also places like Pakistan you know what within those those situations and it'll be really interesting to see some kind of comparative perhaps work that might emerge from you at from your kind of perspective at a later point. And there was one last question about prevent from Joel Lehman from listening and viewing your work. Are we to understand that you offer an answer to prevent from your complex criticisms. Do you believe in need for community intelligence gathering, or do you resent the concept in its entirety. And I really like the focus on community there. Thank you. Thank you, John. The community intelligence is already gathering the community intelligence is actually there. There is, there are plenty of, there are plenty of, I suppose, not just academics for individuals that are looking to answer, you know, like like I said kind of ask and critique these kinds of processes in the way that if they are set out to vilify us to vilify communities that they will be challenged so prevent watch is a key example of that. And there are many other key examples of people working within law and academics working within law. John Holmwood again is another example of how those verbatim those kinds of transcripts of almost 200 individuals are now being composed so there is, there is this there is a response to these things. And I, it's not about resenting any kind of concept. But what it is, it is not is not something that I think helps any, any, any, any community or even the country itself. And I know that for a fact that is similar across the rest of Europe as well in different countries. It doesn't help to vilify and corner communities, I don't think. Okay, excellent. Thank you, Faisal. So just to wrap up, are they, and some final words from you that you might want to say I mean there's there's a prompt from some from from Carla pain that might help you. Are they any particular artists, whether they be visual musical or theatrical that you would like to collaborate with or see yourself aligning within the future. Well, no, I mean, there's some, I mean, Hamza Hassan, who I think asked the question, I mean, I'm a big fan of his work. Obviously there are people much more in the popular kind of feel but there are there are people like, you know, there are people who are making interventions within within a British life all the time so as well as people like Banksy you've got people like led by donkeys you've got I think off my head. I mean, there are the variety of people like low key people like Sohyma Sohyma Manzoor Khan who is I think phenomenal talent who is someone I'm also a big fan of. And actually it's in terms of my academic it's actually the women women are the people who are really I think I'm in oral. They're also the people on the front line against or who are being attacked within within kind of Islam. It's not the big it's not the big Turkish land in the kebab restaurant it's the it's it's women, but I am a particular fan of there are so many. I actually have to put a list together but in terms of writers and so on I will need to compile a list of inspiration. It's really nice to be able to see people like Gus Khan, Riz Ahmed, you know, us in childhood these people, you know, any form of representation of of who we are within the mainstream I congratulate Holy and I wish I wish them more power more more inspiration. So I'm sorry I can't really answer there's so many my mind's gone blank. I think that's a good point where we can pull things to an end and it remains for me to thank the audience who've been absolutely phenomenal with their questions we have loved your interaction. Thank you so much for being, you know, completely participatory and making this online and virtual experience such a rich and meaningful one. It's been really a wonderful wonderful way to connect. And thank you huge thank you to vessel for making the time available for answering everything and for all the kind of admin leading up to it. And for choosing to bring your work to so as so as is enriched by your work and we hope that we will also have opportunities to collaborate with you and to work with you and to bring you know future conversations like this to to the four as it were and thank you for taking us through your archive. And thank you very much to to john and Lucy as well, especially Lucy who's who's kind of put in masses of effort into the various admin parts of this thing and is sort of responding about the recordings and various things. And I think she will be reaching out to you with with the with the recording at some point. So, um, I just want to add just one thing if people would, people could give some feedback about the exhibition. I think Lucy circulated the feedback link at the start. I really appreciate that. Yes, that would be great everyone if you can feedback to vessel he's really looking forward to that. Thank you everyone and wishing you all a very good night a pleasant evening and rest of the week and we hope to see you at another so as a vent in the future. Bye for now.