 Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LPF. I'm here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're recording this on Sunday morning, April 22nd, 2023. I'm Larry Rhodes, or DJ Douter 5. And as usual, we have our co-host Wombat on the line with us. Hello, Wombat. Now with iContact Plus, only for $4.99 a month. Oh my goodness. Only on Zoom, or YouTube. Yeah, iContact Plus, only available in select regions. Ask your provider about iContact Plus. Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism, and the sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion, religious faiths, gods, holy books, and superstition. And if you get feeling that you're the only non-believer in your town, well, you're just not. Here in Knoxville, in the middle of the Bible Belt, there's over 1,1100 of us in the Atheist Society of Knoxville, or ASK. We'll tell you more about us after the mid-show break, so be sure to stick around. Wombat, what's your topic today? All right, so I got it phrased kind of in a tongue-in-cheek way, but I believe in it. It's called, quote, without the afterlife, dot, dot, dot, insert here, exclamation point quote. And it's going to be a fun one because I'm sure if you have been in the secular circles long enough, you've heard if you've ever had an engagement with someone who is of the religious persuasion. Well, if there's no afterlife, then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so we're going to go over some of the examples that we've heard. And I think it'll be cool to dive into it. I mean, I even have a guest drop into the show and get his thoughts as well. But before delving into it, Larry, how you been? Wanted to check in with you. Doing great. I love this nice moderate weather. Nice. Been cleaning house a lot lately. My daughter's boyfriend is coming to stay with us for a little bit from the other side of the medic, the Atlantic. Oh, from the Netherlands. Wait, there's there's landmass on the out some people and people like East America. What in the world is this East America, West America. Wow, there's Americans everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, she's having to make sure other houses just just so but she's wearing this out basically. All right, all right, all right. I know you love your family. Okay, so my thing was, had a really fun engagement yesterday. With a friend of mine from work. We went out to go play disc golf and rock climb. And the rock climbing is indoors because, you know, I'm still learning how to properly apply grips. But if you can see my hands, for those who have the web streams, I'm covered in calluses. So like I've been doing this for a while, at least, you know, about climbing for a year. And it's one of the new joys that I love sharing with other people. I find like it's a really good balance between technique and strength. And as I'm getting stronger, I'm finding myself more capable, but I also love the idea of like controlling your body and using muscles that you don't really think about that are all about stabilizing yourself and getting to where you need to go. I think everybody should know how to run, climb, swim and and I think I already said climb, but everyone should know how to run, walk, climb and swim like with proper technique. I think it's part of your. I'll add one to that. Go for it. Sit and play. Defend yourself. I did it for nine years, I guess. And fight. And the reason I say that is I don't, you don't need to go out and fight, but you need to have the confidence that you can defend yourself. Yeah. That's so you don't live your life in fear. It's a core. It's a core component of what I think is to be. I agree. And it's a great way to get fit. Absolutely. So I'm sharing this with our friends at work. I had a friend go out and we went rock climbing. We had a good time. We went out and played disc golf, not one of the five tenants, but still a fun thing to do. That was great. So you should know how to throw things, right? Accuracy. That's also one of the primitive mindsets that feel really great. But afterwards we went out and got some lunch before we called it a day and we went to a burrito place. And while we're sitting down at the burrito place, he starts showing me pictures of like his girlfriend and some activities. He's hoping to have in the future with now that it's fall where they'll be apple picking and his girlfriend lives next to an Amish commune. And so the entire time he's just gushing about like Amish culture. And he's talking about like, yeah, she lives next to these Amish people and they're like super Amish. They have no electricity. They don't use any tools. They, they're like super like, you know, down to earth and they're just cooking. Back to nature. Yeah. In the back of my head, whenever I hear Amish, you know me, like as just like my, the atheist voice in my head is like, yeah, and they're, they don't teach their kids to read in some cases. They don't give him driver's license. They have a very entrapment form of child rearing. The, the females are essentially treated like property rampant sexual abuse that goes unreported. Like there's a lot of stuff going on there. And so I dropped a little bit of that tongue and cheek. I know rude, unapproposed a person as nice as me, but it changed the nature of the conversation. Because as soon as I mentioned that it was as if like I pulled a plug on a drain and a bathtub for him. And he went straight from talking about like, man, isn't Amish culture cool too? Yeah. And that's why I hate Amish culture too. It's so terrible. Like I know of all these people are trying to get out, but they can't and Ohio's having like a really big problem with it. They keep trying to like pay for, they keep demanding the city expand roads for their horses. And that costs money, but they're not paying taxes on it. There's a sees all these crazy things in the dogma is so terrible because it traps all these people on the inside. And I'm like, oh, whoa, maybe I have found a confident that I can talk to since we're both like, you know, engineers and scientists. Like maybe we can both appreciate like. But he's religious himself, right? He's Christian. Now that's a great question. So I asked him that, right? So, and I don't say, Hey, are you Christian? Like, where are you like religiously if you have one of that? And I apologize earlier for like, you know, talking badly about Amish and the event that he had Amish in his family or he was Amish or, you know, forming stuff like that. He's like, No, I'm not religious. I'm not religious. But I do believe in a spiritual power that has control over the universe. Like when I look at the universe, I definitely do see some sense of order in the world. And in my mind, I'm like, that's a very vague. It's a very vague God claim. I imagine if I were to just talk to him about this for like about maybe a couple of minutes, I might be able to figure out what's the nature of his belief and how much faith he's putting or how much reliability is putting into it. So I asked him like, How did you come to the conclusion that there's a supernatural being that's in charge of everything? And he's like, I don't know. I just assume. I just assume I'm like, is that. So you're assuming he's literally telling me he just assumed I'm like, is that at a reliable way then to come to a true conclusion? He's like, No, I'm like, then why do you believe it? And he's like, Well, it just makes me feel comfortable. But yeah, I don't really put a lot of stock into that. But I, in my mind, I have like family. And if there was no afterlife, then my life would have no meaning. And so like that was the next step. So he's not believing in his supernatural God because it makes him. Well, to an extent it does make him comfortable, but he's not believing it because of a disregard of Big Bang theory or anything like that. He's doing it because he needs to have the comfort of the idea of an afterlife because it gives value to his life. Well, I'm sure a lot of that is that he would see the people who have passed before him again sometime in the future. And so I wanted to dwell on that and even make it like the topic of the show. If there was no afterlife, then blank because I know you've heard. Religious people say the same thing too. And like what would be good responses and how can you move forward in a conversation like this? So Larry, I know I see you typing right now, but I do want to ask you this. Have you ever wanted to ask you or have you want anyone tell you? Yeah, oh yeah. I set up booths to talk to believers, you know, and I don't call them over. I don't walk the streets, you know, handing out flyers. I set up a booth and says, ask an atheist. If they want to talk to me, they wander over and they talk to me. Yeah, totally voluntary. And I certainly don't knock on their doors. Yeah. So they come over and they talk and a lot of the times they'll say if there's no afterlife, if there's no heaven, then what's the point of living? And it just it really shocks me because it's like they they are not capable of supplying their own purpose for their life, which is where purpose really comes from. You go to college because you want to because you have a it gives you a brighter future in the future and in your life. You do things like you pick a hobby because you enjoy it and it gives you maybe you'd like to darn or make socks or something. You know, it gives you something to work for. You like climbing walls. Yeah. Make that your purpose. It doesn't matter. You set your own purpose. The value is that you can do it yourself. Right. And the beauty of it is you don't have to have just one and you can change them at any time you want to. Exactly. Yeah. And it makes for a multifaceted life and a multifaceted skill set going down through your life. Along with that is not only can you select a bunch of different ones, but you know, different people can select different versions. And you can have conversations with them. You can talk to them. And so you told me before that you had studied karate. There might be some people who study Taekwondo. I've studied Taekwondo. There might be some people who studied different disciplines. And you can get those people in the same room. And even though we have different, you know, disciplines and way of learning how to defend ourselves. We can have a deep appreciation for the amount of discipline it took for us to get, you know, competent in our select disciplines and talk about them in a really meaningful and passionate way. Right. And I really like to go off in this because it's, I studied my version of karate. It was this year karate. It not only gave me the confidence that I can defend myself if I needed to. But in everyday life, I have balance and coordination and, and, you know, the skills that it gives me a good strong heart for all the exercise, a low body mass, a weight, fat, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's not just the fighting aspect of it. You added value to your own life. That's right. Your own vocation through your own endeavor. But don't you feel terrible that you wasted all that time because there's no afterlife? No, no. You know, what makes something precious? Right. The lack of that one thing or the, the rarity of that one thing diamonds are precious. Natural diamonds because they're rare. Gold is precious because it's rare. The more life you have, if you have an afterlife that goes on eternity, and if you think that your death is just a, what is it, change, change of address, then it's not precious to you. Matter of fact, how many, how many movies have you seen where the, the religious people say, kill the heathen, et cetera. You know, because it, you know, let God sort it out. It's demeaning to the value of life itself. I had this, I had the similar point that I brought up with my friend, because when he said if. So remember, if going back in the conversation I asked him, why did he believe in a God because at first it was just something he assumed we realized that assumptions are assumptions are not a reliable way to reach a true conclusion. So I asked him then like what really is bring him to the belief that there's a supernatural being that brought order to the universe. Disregarded the argument of order, which is because he was an engineer who probably knew where that was going to go. There is in fact, so but he went to afterlife gives my life value therefore it must be true. And while that's an argument from comfort just because something makes you comfortable doesn't necessarily make it true. I didn't want to talk about a comment he made where he said, if I don't have the afterlife my life has no value or no meaning. And I thought process was how what does that mean like if it was true that there was no afterlife would you just stand in a parking lot and wait to die with is the food that you're eating no longer have taste. The video games that you planned on playing later this evening would you just not play them if the things weren't true would you break up with your girlfriend. So far you should so far you've only mentioned the hedonistic things, but there are other purposes like your family providing for your family providing a home for your family to live in. You know, providing for loved ones is can be a purpose of life to right. I was just wondering like, would you stop being friends with me to like, I, all these times I'm asking all these questions including the ones that you brought up, where he's like no no no no no. And then, of course, I brought up the other idea of like, you know, the idea that my life has values because it's limited. Right. And the way how I think about it is, because my life has a limitation of length of time duration. What gives every moment value to me. So, if anything, it's without an afterlife that gives my life value, because I, I know that this is the life that I have and I want to enjoy and and and contribute and build a legacy as much as possible. I have a weird concept about my life right now. It's not so much. I know my life will end. However, I do have an ability with my life to make a lasting impact that will last out beyond even one of my time on this earth is. And that is through my impacts on the next generation, maybe the jokes that I tell, maybe the science that I enable and publish, or the work that I do to help build technology platforms for people. The volunteer work that I can do the skills that I can develop and train other people in like I can have a lasting impression that out lives my physical body. And when I'm far more invested in is building that legacy. Then I am with my life like my life is essentially just the tool to build my legacy. And I think of when I think about it that way. It's like, okay, well then that's great because I get to decide what this tool is going to be used for. I get to decide what value it can offer to this world. And even if this tool is gone. I still have all these amazing projects that outlasted at lasted it. In my opinion, that gives me so much value and I was talking about with this guy and I said, listen, you give me value, just by the ability of us having this friendship and talking and being able to do stuff together like this is cool. Like, don't say that don't or don't give the I don't want you to end this conversation with the impression that you have no value without an afterlife because you've demonstrated that you do. In fact, I can even let you know that you had a good impact of value on me. And so overall, I just felt like that aspect of our conversation was actually pretty positive by the end of it. Though I do think a lot of people put themselves into a rut where if there is no afterlife, it could be very depressing for them because then they have to start considering. Well, then death is going to happen no matter what, you know, like my friends are going to die no matter what my family is going to die no matter what that that that offers such a sad twist for them if they've never had a chance to deal with it or frame it in a proper way. What do you think? Yes, absolutely. And there was a. Oh, who was it Julia. Can't remember her last name, but she did a routine where she said that now that she knows that she's an atheist and she knows that she's eventually going to die and her friends are going to die. She also has to in her mind go back through all the people who have died previously and say goodbye to them because she won't see them again. Oh, that's an interesting way of course. It's simple. Welcome to the show. Yes. Good. I'm going to I'm going to go get my headphones so I can hear you guys because it won't let me put you on speaker which is that was an interesting 10 minutes of technical nonsense. I'll let you guys get on with it for two and then I'll I'll be right with you. So wanted to wrap up the conversation then so after we had the discussion on the afterlife, I did we did ask him like beyond afterlife now that we realize like your wife still has value. What's still bringing to the god belief is like, not really much. I honestly I'm not even that religious to begin with none of my family's religious I was wondering like, Hey, is it your family is it your girlfriend that's also religious because I can understand someone person like in this area, you know, being invested in a community that is very religious that they would have to, you know, put it up the front. It's like no, all my family's not religious except my grandma. And we're basically just waiting for her to pass on before we can just be open about the fact that we none of us believe in God, but I'm not an atheist or anything. I love that. I'm an agnostic not an atheist. I'm not sure. Well, I'm not sure either but I'm still an atheist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So without getting to without pulling out my atheist dictionary I just asked him so what is what is a person that doesn't believe in a God called what is someone that doesn't believe in a God called any like pause and he thought about it's like I guess an atheist is like yeah, I'm I do. I've been one for like about you know, I say 12 years out openly now. And I told him a little bit of my my story in my background, coming into my, my non belief. And I said, you know, I'm framing it as a, not as a statement that God does not exist, or that the afterlife doesn't exist like I'm not saying that, and he was really receptive to that. What I'm saying is, I don't know, and by empowered, empowered by the fact that I'm ignorant on whether or not a God exists. I'm not believing in him because my default position isn't to believe things until they're or until they're proven. Just proven. Not believe something until it is proven. So at least at least that we have evidence for it. Because proof is very rare. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you for clarifying that was a little bit of a cumbersome sentence but I took I took a coin that was on the table. It was actually a bottle cup but let's just call it a coin on the back my hand I was like listen I don't know if this is heads or tails. Do you know if it's heads or tails he's like it's heads. I'm like, hey you might be right. But are you guessing and he says yeah I am guessing it's like, and because you're guessing I can't be convinced that you're, you're, you're right because you might actually be right but you're really unreliable method to get to that conclusion until you have a more reliable method like actually looking at the coin, then I can be more persuaded at looking at your answer and being like oh well you have a very justified reason for believing that. But until then, until we can like have an experience where you know God can come down neat this what eat burritos with us and improve that exists. I'm not going to be persuaded to believe in the God, because I don't know if that God exists or not. I don't know which of the guys been claimed to exist. And so I don't know which afterlife might exist or not so until then I'm not saying they don't exist I'm just saying, you got more work to do. People who say that it does for sure. Before I believe you to, and that's what it is. And we've got a guest that just joined us welcome Keith simple. Do you have a name or a podcast name that you'd like to go by on podcast. It's just my name Keith. So Keith simple came up with a simple truth that seems like an obvious name for the podcast. Where are you from. I'm from a little town called Larn in Northern Ireland. I live in Chicago land now like I mean in the burbs of Chicago but I moved here in 2006. Do you know where Forest Park is. Oh yeah I've been there many times. Yeah, I grew up there. I lived there till I was like 11. Okay I'm like Neaverville Plainfield area so just you know 40 minutes northwest ish. Well welcome to the show. Yeah. I've learned that my computer does not like zoom. It wouldn't let me use zoom anymore. I'm like, oh no. Okay that's interesting. Good timing. How about this. Let's go to a quick break and then we come back on do a full introduction and and figure out more about you sound cool. Awesome. This is the digital free thought radio hour and w o z o radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville Tennessee will be right back after this short break. Welcome back to the second half of the digital free thought radio hour. I'm doubter five and we're on w o z o radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville Tennessee. Let's take just a moment to talk about the atheist society of Knoxville ASK was founded in 2002 we're in our 21st year now and have over 1100 members. We have weekly in person meetings every Tuesday evening in Knoxville's old city at Barley's taproom in pizzeria. Look for us inside at the high top table or if it's pretty outside outside on the deck and you can find us online on Facebook meetup.com or at Knoxville atheists.org or just Google Knoxville atheists it's just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you should still go to meet up and find a. Atheist group in your town. Don't find one. Start one. That's right. One bat where you want to pick up. Hey, we got a new guest. Let's talk about we do. Keith simple. How are you, my friend. I am good guys. It's a pleasure to be going with you. Good morning. Welcome. I'm a little rough from the night before I'm a singer for a living. So this is my vocals Sundays and Mondays are my weekends, essentially, or Mondays and Tuesdays, whatever, but, but yeah, it'll maybe it'll make me sound like I know more about what I'm talking about. What's the name of your group. It's just simple my last name. Yes, so it's kind of everything's a play on words off the word simple with an I essentially we, you know, we, we played. Oh, this is kind of funny. We played, I'm sorry to say, we played Trump Tower last night. And I did not know that that was the we played for this client before, but I had no idea until we were booked like six months in that that's where they decided to have the event. So I was, I was locked in as like, you know what I this is not something where I can just say like screw you guys I'm never playing that place type of a thing I had to just go do it. Now, it was a great show. It was beautiful. It's a beautiful hotel. But, you know, the whole time I'm just like, I'm in, I'm in like, evil territory here in my head, you know, I just didn't feel right, even though it was a great show. I mean, it's at the end of the day it's a building and your, your, your, your position and vocation is to bring joy to people. Right. So that's it. Yeah, I mean nobody would have known it was a fantastic show. Right. In fact, it was a really fantastic show and our, our band is all about energy and, and, you know, and real like high energy performances and that's what we're known for and I kind of jump about like an idiot for a few hours and get everybody involved and, you know, put the microphone and people's faces and stuff and it was it was a huge success. I'm just like, you know, you're also an atheist, I believe. Is that right? Oh, very much so. Yes, I'm one of the lucky ones I call myself because I've never had a supernatural belief, ever. You raised in the Ireland? Like, is that common or like? That's very common. Yeah, I was on, there was only one eighth, one Christian in 10 of us. So that's why it's so weird. That's why I started my new podcast here. The simple truth is because I've moved here in 06 and I just was like blowing away. I felt like I'd moved back like Marty, Marty fly, you know, 1955. Like, I was like, wait a minute, what is going on here? It's meant to be the country of, you know, hopes and dreams and stuff. And I'm like, if people still believe in angels here, like, I mean, what's going on? We have extreme religious freedom here. So we, you know, there are hardly any laws that will limit the religious order, religious practice. And if they, if there are laws that limit it, they're quickly challenged. So it's like religion run rampant in this country. Yeah, and it's ironic is it's the only secular one of the only secular constitutions on the planet and it's ironic that somewhere that actually got it right in the documents. Even at all this time ago, they've, they got it right, knowing that the whole point is to try and not establish a government religion. They've basically done everything else in me and other than that, then officially say it. And I just interviewed Monica Miller, she used to be the head of the main lawyer at the ACA. Or sorry, the AHA, the American Humanist Association, so she's been at the Supreme Court and argued all these points and just hearing the fact that there was some arguments they wouldn't even take up because they knew they would lose even though they were on a, you know, in a law since they were 100% in the right, they just knew they would lose because any, any slightly conservative judge would go, you know, even just blows my mind in this country. So it's not too much of a surprise for me because like there's a lot of things the founding fathers overlooked when they're making their original documents right how to treat women, how to treat people who aren't who are darker than khaki. A lot of things fell through the crack but over time we were able to like make up a lot of ground but we're still in that progress. And the way how I think about the work that we're doing even today is, you know, when we are vocal about atheism when we're vocal about our secular pursuits and how word we don't eat babies and you know what you might have heard from your pastor about us isn't necessarily accurate. And let's have a conversation about intellectual honesty and genuine ignorance and doubt and why these things are actually useful for figuring out how to get to true truths, right, or like yes, useful models, like these are the the second enlightenment that will get us to where we need to go and we're all participating in that. Musically podcast conversations one on one engagements, and I'm happy to be a part of that because I feel like that, as we were talking about earlier in the show does bring value to my life it gives me a sense of purpose to have these kinds of engagements with folks, and to meet new people So Keith, you know, I still am desperate to learn more about your backstory and like what got you to that cool logo in the background and the awesome Pokemon tats that you're rocking right now. What do you want to tell us about yourself. Yeah, these are actually it's these are all like famous bands that I love like this is actually Pink Floyd. This is mega death right here. There's a British band called Thunder that I love and then there's a band called dream theater that I've had the privilege of becoming friends with now. They are one of my favorite bands anyway. And then there's my invisible pink unicorn, you might appreciate. Okay, I see I don't say anything. So, yeah, I mean I've been an atheist my whole life I was lucky that my dad is actually a master's in geology he's a, you know, and he has a master's in philosophy so he's a very, you know I've been lucky to have that bug about knowledge and my dad made me think about do not that I want an answer. I want the right answer, or what's going to get me closest to the right answer I know Matt Dillahunty always says you know I want to know as few false things as possible and as many things and that's my my goal since 14 so I I started reading the Bible a lot at 13 and 14, not from a any place of religiosity but from more of a curiosity. And in the problem is in the UK there is no separation of church and state right so it's you know Church of England or in our country it's mostly Presbyterian. And my headmaster principle was actually a lay preacher as well. So it was like, if somebody got sick he would go and preach and he he walked in one day and he saw me reading the Bible in lunchtime and he's like what are you doing Keith. And you know you know you don't believe any of this stuff and you give me a hard time about it and I was like well, sir how can I give you a hard time about it if I don't know all the arguments for and against it. And I was like do you want me to get into you know a few here that I'm having a problem with. Let's just say I just read Deuteronomy. I've got a few notes. That's one chapter one false asleep through there. Yeah, Tyrone I'm guessing you have a few problems with Exodus. Yeah, and that's basically what happened and that we had a rule in our school because it's obviously Northern Ireland so the weather sucks like the weather is terrible. So it's either if it's good weather you're outside in a in a break time or lunchtime. And so I was in reading a book in a room and he's like, I'll just go outside Keith and I'm like I really want to study this I'm interested in this whole theology thing. And he kind of just like relented over time because he's seen I wasn't just being facetious or silly, I was being honest. And then, by the time I got to about 18 I was actually having on stage debates at school with with like ministers and like moderators of entire religions that in the country you know our, my minister, as it would be said, was actually the moderator of the entire place in Northern Irish church. And that was with Protestants. Yeah, it's funny because Northern Ireland is mostly Protestant, and that's where the whole big divide. It's funny because the Catholics are the ones who generally don't want you to read the Bible. They say we'll tell you what it means, you know, but the Protestants broke away from that and have their own idea that reading the Bible is what you need to do. And it's kind of funny that he would come down on you for not. I mean for wanting to read it. I'm lucky in that the British version of Presbyterianism and Church of England and these type of religions is so watered down that it's one of these kind of like my mom, for example, was religious in the sense of she has a belief in supernatural things like God's and soul's and hell's and these kind of like the standard kind of religious beliefs, but it's all very wishy-washy and kind of like just be nice Keith, you know, just be good. You know, because maybe God's watching and maybe you know you want to be nice and and if you asked her she believes her her mom is in heaven somewhere right now and so on you know this type of but it but in no way that she ever like bring me up as a parent in a kind of like do this because Jesus is watching kind of a top down feel it was a very much I want you to grow up to be a well rounded. You know person and luckily, you know my dad being the way he was he's been an atheist his whole life. And he would not ever really say much till I was older till I was about 16 and he'd be like he would say how he really felt and I was like I knew it but but then I was annoyed at him for things like that why did you let me get baptized. Why did you let me go to church every week for you know till I was like 12 and he's like I just I just wanted an easy life like I just wanted you know like your mom to be happy. And so he was balancing more sort of the day to day at the moment life then but I'm glad he did he lay on the accent a little bit more just to like make him seem more more amenable to like the Irish charm is like oh I just want to make you happy that's dad. Alright, so Tyrone that's funny you say that because my band members and everybody here makes fun of me because every time I do an impression of someone that said something. Yeah, even if it was you Tyrone, you would have that same accent. So Tyrone said this you know he goes, I don't know what you know. My defaults always an Australian accent be like hey mate, there you go. I didn't have this question. I think it's ideal. And it's not so much that you're raised as an atheist that makes it ideal it's like you had parents that weren't you know, absolutely motivated to indoctrinate you that's that's my mindset is the ideal mindset that I have is, you were able to approach theology with a mindset that wasn't already indoctrinated into believing that what you were reading was true, and that you are like a fundamental a fundamental appreciation for how to understand things without any bias from, from religion. And I would say even from like a secular point of view to because you were simply, I'm a curious person. I know how to read and write I know my parents love me, I can understand physics to an extent. Now let's read the Bible. Oh my gosh, how does anyone believe this this doesn't make any sense. Exactly. That's how I would love that would be my deal for how most people would approach religion like after they've already had a semblance of understanding how reality works until like their late teens, and then show them a book and be like, here's a holy book that a bunch of people believe over there like well there's nothing true in here, or how did you establish that. I feel like you're literally reading text from my mind right now. Like, you just said a sentence that I just had the pleasure of the great pleasure. Last week of interviewing the friendly atheist haven't met a who is doing amazing things for the atheist community I don't know if you know him or whatever but he. He has the bunch of books out about being a young atheist and I said to him that I honestly believe if you didn't teach religion till 16. Like as in you weren't allowed to teach your kids or whatever you know imagine or imagine a world like that. Religion would be all religions would be on the same level as flat earthers, or below. Here would be my alternative appreciation for it like if I learned about religion at the same time that I could play Assassin's Creed. Like when I could like delve into a world of fiction and be like, oh wow Tolkien and gnomes and these are cool Star Wars, oh Jedi are awesome. They can use force power like I can appreciate it as a mythology. And then I can take some of the like the learning lessons of like hey what would Luke Skywalker do I know he's not a real person, but I was really motivated when he did xyz. And that's going to give me a little bit of strength and I'll go on with the rest of my day I'm not going to force people to be a Jedi. I'm just going to say hey I really like these movies I like these characters maybe I'll write a nice story like that one day to like I can take good things from fake things and move forward with the picture somebody wearing a bracelet and what would L asked you know what yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I want to make that someone make that but like honestly like if I could appreciate the Bible as a work of fiction, I might be able to still pull all the virtues that people are using. Don't steal be nice respect your parent, I could take those that's still these are still deepities that are valuable to an extent but I don't have to take the baggage of by the way Philistines are evil don't trust Jewish people Samaritans are of a majority terrible people there's only one good one that good Samaritan we all know that one, like all these others. This witches are real. That's our birds, like you don't have to take any of that stuff you can just take the good stuff and just be like hey okay. What's the next religion I can take good things from Tyron do you think the majority of people I honestly don't think the majority of people, like even a good friend of mine here that I was helping me say all this up here and like I'm like I'm not the most technical person at times unless it's music related. And he, he didn't know a lot of things that even as a pretty well knowledge of I would say more knowledgeable than most. When I was talking to him I was, I was saying like well, you know I would maybe give more credence to the whole Jesus story and stuff if we had any first hand accounts. If we had any first hand authors, if we knew who wrote the Gospels and he stopped me he's like what do you mean who wrote, we know we wrote the Gospels, it even says it Matthew Mark look and I'm like, oh come on. I was like, I wasn't mad at him or anything but like do you not, do you not, are you not aware of that like the idea who wrote those. Yeah, and then I said what about the other Gospels that didn't make it in their gospel of Thomas gospel of Mary, Peter. I've read all of those as much as they have all of them. And Tom, the actual gospel of Thomas is the closest thing they can date to Jesus and that's about 70 AD so you've got 40 years of your, you know, like you can imagine your grand is sitting around with their pipes top telling stories about. I remember Jesus, you know they were probably drunk and high, and they were like, oh remember that tiny walked on water. And really it was like, really he just really quickly swam out to a boat or something. So like, he didn't realize those things and I'm like I can't blame him for that but I'm like, I said pull open your any Bible or let's pull it up. And we pulled it up the very first thing that came up was the sort of like a preface at the start of all the Bible which is, although they attribute this to Matthew, Mark, look and John, we do not actually know who wrote these, and we know it's written as if they do. But it looks like Mark is a is a plagiarism of Matthew and John and look and so on. And it's like, they don't really know who wrote this. And I'm like, we're starting from a level of atheists in general when asked or any survey shows that atheists always score higher on religious and by biblical knowledge. And you know that old saying that, you know, give that give me the child till till seven and I'll give you the man that is all religion. It's so embedded by then like, I'm lucky that my my wife is not religious at all. And I mean like, not only not religious but couldn't care less about the whole concept. I love that I'm like wait a minute you're not worried about what happens you when you die or anything like that. She's like, what can I do about it and I'm like, exactly. But still, as an atheist that can be an existential dread of I'm going back to, I'm going back to another 13 million years of of not knowing I exist. It's kind of where I'm at when I think about my end of days you know, but she lets us parent we parent very neutrally. I don't actually teach them any kind of, I want you to believe this what I teach them is, what do you think. And if you give kids the what do you think they go. The perfect example was, you know that Elf on a shelf thing. What, be heard of that. No. Yeah. Okay, it's a kid's thing where an elf, you have a little toy elf, and every Christmas every morning, every night, the parents go and set him up in funny situations. Like, we would get little like harshing kisses and have them like proving over the over the toilet and stuff. Yeah. Is this. So every day I'm on this show. I learned something about people every day. This is great. I'm just so glad that I, I, I don't want to go to my next black friend and be like, do you know they got elves on like, yeah, they've been telling me stuff. They let that leak. I got it recorded. That's funny. So we, we have the, you know, the Elf on a shelf and we would do funny things like leave a trail of like toilet paper around the house and then it would lead to him sitting there over like the sink with like loads of Hershey's chocolate kisses in the sink and he there's a note you leave a note. And it's written as if it's him. Yeah, I'll say sorry I just couldn't get to the bath to the toilet in time or something. He said, don't worry. I put chocolate. Here you go. So that's that's right. But that's a thing. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. Now I was very, I was kind of like by humbug about it because I'm like, can we really do this because the kids are going to actually think this is really funny. So, but all, all I needed to say was, all I needed to say to my girls was, well, what do you, you know, they were like, well, how does he do that and I'm like, well, what do you, what do you think, and it only took them like five minutes to go. We had a minute. You guys just do this when we go to bed, right? Right. And everything else. Yeah, what's funny is you asked them, what do they think? But in the Bible, it says lean not on your own understanding. So, you know, like, they want you, they don't want you to think. It's literally, as I was about to say, that's some dark, you know, evil fader stuff that you put in a book that's supposed to be about good people. It's like, don't, don't read the fine text and just give me your children and don't ask questions. That's the, those are actual lines. Are you saying that the Bible is the original Apple? Do you agree to these terms or conditions? Yeah, yeah, I've always felt like the Bible is if, if Trump was God, it would be his autobiography. It is a book written by a crazy dictator who thinks he's awesome. And every step of the way, you're like, this isn't a good thing. But if you give it up, cycle fence to be like, yeah, have you read that book? No, you should read it. Okay, maybe we will. We just like hanging out and wearing these shirts and hats. So Tyrone, if you're okay with this, because I'm fascinated by, I want to ask you how you came because obviously I don't know you guys well yet or anything. But I want to ask you offline because I don't, I know most of your listeners have probably heard your story many times, but I want to know what, how you got to where you are in your thought process. But maybe we could do that offline just so we can actually if you let them come back on the show again, we'd be happy to go over it or yeah, like, I think it'd be a good topic because yes, our listeners, we've gone over this several times, but we've been on the air for six years. We touch on it occasionally and we have new audiences every week. So, you know, I think it's a good idea to go into it whenever you want to. Out of all my black friends, I have one friend that is an atheist. And I wouldn't even say would openly say they are. And it drives me nuts because and forgive me if this is, you know, white guy talking about this like shoot me, but I feel like the irony of some of the most devout and religious people in America are actually the black Presbyterian kind of denominations, you know, and I'm like, it just it's like, if of all the people who should hear it, it more than anyone it's the people that have been subjected by it. Let me throw something else out to religion is about beating a sense of humanity out of a person. If you look at someone who is deeply indoctrinated in the religion, they don't think they're a good person. They think they're a terrible human being they think they're substandard they think they're subservient they think they need a shepherd they need a savior. There are something wrong with them. And if you are grown in a culture where that is both what you're told by your holy power and how society treats you as a human being to the point where because of the teachings. That's not an irony. That's a reaction that is a direct input output and how you can develop an entire culture that has that mindset. And even when you legally take away the chains, the mindset still there, it's still affecting, and that should be a red flag as well as a clear indication of how terrible religion can be when you subject it entire people for such a long period of time. Thankfully, there's also some other good stories to abolitionists were largely motivated by humanity and Christian and Christianity thinking so a lot of heroes were were for for abolishment of slavery were religious and that's how a lot of people got black people get their last names. A lot of the leaders in black movements were church organizers, which allowed a lot of different communities to come together so they could focus a message in the same way how you can focus an army around. Hey, those are bad people because my God said so it's like oh yeah then we'll we'll help you kill those people. You can do the same thing for we need rights, and let's go to this church to be able to establish that because that's a good way to congregate and get people to work together. So, as terrible as it seems, it has historically had very clear ties for why we are in the state that we are in today. And what only thing I'd love to just highlight is that everything that was good out of religion wasn't good because of religion, our ability to have a community, the cultures that we are able to provide to America and the rest of the world. None of that came from religion that stuff that came from us. And as soon as we begin to realize that and look that you know bifurcate for a period of time. We'll actually have a culture that is more free, in my opinion to continue to contribute to society and and can be beneficial to everybody then tying it to like dogma, but you know, that's a hard thing to get into more detail in like five minutes but I think that was a fascinating vibe. That should be on a bumper sticker on the back of what you just said. That was so phenomenal. You need a long red light to read that one. 2020 vision test. Keith, I know it's only been for a short time, but we loved having you on the show. If you're more than walking the top of 10, it's not, it doesn't have to be next week. It could be any time in the future. We typically have just an open invite for any of the people who've come on and we do have a six or seven people that come in fairly regularly. Right. Yeah, I'll just do it as a kind of anytime I'm not dead from the weekend I would love to I mean I got home about 3am so you know it's a little little rough I mean if I don't have to sing or whatever in the next day or whatever then it works a little easier but you know and those hotel loadouts are rough you know because you finish at midnight or whatever and then from where you are to where your loadout is like 18 floors and 100, 200 or 300 yards of push you know and I'm not the biggest You don't have roadies for that. I do but but we are all a team and I'm one of these guys that like I like to see my in my my employees basically seeing me do the work. So like, I when I arrive I pulled on that trailer to work, and I'm lifting stuff out and in whether there's anybody there or not next time just pray and I'll fix itself. There's a few things I need to get fixed in that trailer maybe that maybe that's the worst you know. Larry thank you so much for doing this show thank you Keith for being on the show. Larry I think we're getting close to the end I want to hear what you would love to plug Keith before we go into the next week to give you an example. I would love for people to check out a lady named and ask you and ask you her last name a SKW like ask you. The reason why I bring her up is she is a famous martyr for Protestants, Protestants, she was a Protestant. She in the world where Protestantism was becoming a new thing and everyone was a Catholic and these people were like no let's not listen to Catholic church they're clearly evil. She was put on a rack and stretched out until her bones separated was paralyzed and then put on a stake and burned to the death because of her belief that was slightly different than the other alternative version of Christianity at the time. And I think to myself, man, that was only you know a couple hundred years ago compared to where we are now where we have a host on the show that isn't not beyond not being Protestant, but as an atheist, I can talk about his family and bring a lot of love and sing songs at Trump tower and stuff like that for like all these different interactions with people like we've come such a long way and I say like let's continue to like move forward with that but also take a couple of moments to look back and not take for granted. How far we have come. Well that's all I wanted to say about promotion wise is just that this as you can see in the background is my podcast area here the simple truth, spelled like my name is E. And I just decided that I've always planned on doing this and and and obviously as a kind of I hate the term but like public figure in this area at least and I you know I be I was a top 20 contestant on the voice and things like that so I'm well known in the music circles and I was I've never ever hid that I'm an atheist or that I'm secularist or any of these things but the majority of that never comes up in my interactions as a musician so I'm like this it's time for me now that I'm so doing so well in my music career it's like I want everybody to know and I'm going to do what I can to let people see that that guy that you've really admired on the stage that you go and see week after week and month after month and you see him. I do his thing and he's kind to all of his you know his his fans and he takes pictures with everyone and he and all these things it's like this guy has been an atheist the whole time. He's makes Bernie look far right. And he's, you know, that one of the people you've been taught to hate. Oh, we're on and out of time so all I want you guys to do is go to the simple truth or simple truth calm or find us on any of the podcasts and maybe listen to my atheist episode. And if you like it share it because I'm determined to make a difference with this and that's simple truth. I see MPLE. Yes. Yes. Thank you guys. Sure. Just a reminder, you can find this show on podcasts everywhere. Just search for digital free thought radio hour. If you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. If you're having trouble leaving religious beliefs behind, you can get help at recovering from religion.org. My content can be found at digital to free thought calm. Be sure to click on the blog button where radio show archives, atheist songs and many articles on the subject. My YouTube channel is at doubt or five and you can find my book atheism what's it all about on Amazon. Remember, everybody is going to somebody else's hell. The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it. Enjoy your life. And we see you next Wednesday night at seven o'clock. Say bye everybody. Bye everybody.