 Coaches and trainers, you want to get people fit and healthy, but you also want to build a successful business. You want both, how the hell do you do it? In this episode, you learn how to do it. We have one of the best in the industry on this show, on this episode, Jason Phillips. In fact, we've actually partnered with him for a coach mentorship program. You can learn more at mindpumpnci.com. Oh yeah, the free giveaway. I know that's why you're here. You want to see what we're giving away for free today. Today, the giveaway is MAPS Prime. Here's how you can win free access to MAPS Prime. Leave a comment in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel and turn on your notifications. If we pick your comment, you get free access to MAPS Prime. Isn't that great? One more thing, two programs on sale all month long. MAPS Performance and MAPS Suspension, both 50% off. Go find out more or just sign up at mapsfitnessproducts.com. Just use the code September 50 with no space for that discount. All right, here comes the show. You know, before we started recording, we were just in here having conversation and talking, and I don't want to go into, obviously, you know, throw anybody into the bus, but just talking about, it would be fun if we did, but. Yeah. It would be fun. It would, yeah. Just talking about the absolute garbage that in the lack of integrity that exists in the fitness industry, but specifically in the coaching fitness industry, and to be more specific in the influencers and people who sell other coaches, how to be better coaches and how you help. And it's absolutely terrible. It's actually one of the reasons why we started Mind Pump. We literally, when we first sat down and met each other, we sat down and we said there's a huge market that's available to us for being honest and helping people the right way, because so many people are doing it in terrible ways, and hurting people and preying on their insecurities, and it's run by these insecure egomaniacs. We just have to figure out how to sell it better than their bullshit messages, and we think we've kind of figured some of that out, and we meet you and we hit it off, and we, for a long time, we've been approached by so many people to work with them, work with my certification for coaches and help me, and we said no to everybody, and we didn't want to touch it because we didn't like anybody, of course, until we met you, so. What are some of your guys' theories on why that is so prevalent in our space? What I think, the first thing that comes to mind for me is how easy it is to gain attention with social media. We've never had something like this before. In the past, with mailing to your house marketing or television or radio or things like that, ads and things like that would have to build enough value or you'd have to find a way to acquire these leads by spending your own money or whatever. We're now on social media, you can do gimmicky shit and get attention by thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands and even sometimes millions of people, and when you have millions of people in front of you, you could have a pretty shitty product that you're selling and still convert at 1% and have a six, seven-figure-plus business pretty easily. It's low-hanging fruit, I think, because fitness and health can be very, at least for the mainstream, synonymous with looking a particular way, like looking lean, looking sexy, muscular, beautiful, whatever. So if you're a dysfunctional egomaniac obsessed with fitness and you happen to look good, it's not hard to sell that to other people because we see somebody that looks a particular way, especially on social media, and we think they must know what they're talking about. And so it's like, well, I look good, who knows how they got that way, but now I'm gonna promote myself as this expert in exercise and nutrition and it's just, oh, it's absolutely. Well, even just talking to all these influencers, I mean, they're getting approached by a lot of people like, hey, what are you doing? Do you have some kind of a plan? Like, I wanna eat the way you eat, I wanna train the way you train their, and even though they're not, they don't have a background in it in terms of educating other people, they've been able to apply this to themselves, and therefore, well, I'll just basically write down what I've did and sell that to everybody. And you see that a lot because it's an easy way for them to immediately monetize this huge following, they just- Yeah, now I wanna go on the other end, right? The fitness and health industry is better equipped than any other industry I can think of. For actually helping people solve these chronic health issues that we deal with in modern societies that are a big deal, okay? More Americans than not are overweight. I believe a majority now is even obese. We got lots of health problems. Even if you aren't necessarily sick, your mood is affected, your attention is affected, how you are as a person is affected because you're poor health, and the fitness and health space has the answers. And within that, we just talked about the crappy ones, the people that get all the attention, lots of really good people go into it, wanting to become coaches and trainers to help other people, and then here's what happens. They go into it and they say, okay, I wanna make this my career. So I have to earn money, but the real reason why I'm doing this, and by the way, when I gave talks, Jason, before all the lockdowns and everything happened, I was going to gyms and talking to trainers for free, and I would say, hey, raise your hand and tell me why you became a trainer or a coach. Nobody said it was to become wealthy. Every single person said, it's because they wanted to help people. So here you are, you wanna get in this career, you really wanna help people, but the reality is you also have to earn a living. So what do you end up looking to as your inspiration? These terrible moron influencers that are doing everything right, and then you think, well, that's the way to do it, and it's absolutely not, and I'm so glad that we work with someone like you because you have actually developed, trained and developed a lot of very successful coaches and trainers doing it the right way, and I would like for you to give that away a little bit. Like what, how can a coach or fitness professional go into the space, do a good job, but also make a good living doing it? Because people think it's two different things, but I think it's actually connected, and if you do it the right way, I think it'll become even more successful. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's the one offs for sure of people that quote unquote make it, but I think if we actually did a study today and we looked at all the people in the fitness space that are successful online or even brick and mortar, like none of them are ultra successful because they deliver a poor quality product, right? Now they may have had temporary success, they might have made a hundred grand, 200 grand, maybe even a million dollars on putting out their own program as you said it, which I think is extremely common in the influencer world, but I think that the prerequisite is every coach has to be able to solve a problem. When we look at business in general, any business, I mean, Amazon, PayPal, like whatever it was, there was a problem that existed in the world, they went in, they solved it, they are clearly getting compensated really well for it. It's the same thing with coaching, there's problems that exist. I mean, obesity is at an all-time high rate right now, and I think our world is more aware of it. You look at the stats of the craziness that's going on in the world, obesity is contributing to that. So our world's becoming hyper aware of it and coaches and trainers, as you said, we have the solution, right? We have the steps to get there. The problem is, how do you communicate that to the world? And that's the problem that I think most coaches see is like, is another diet the answer? Well, if you look at social media, no, right? Either everyone's saying, I have the diet that works except every human being that we communicate with, the diets don't work, right? Every brand new lead we get, every individual that we speak to, they're like, well, I've tried every diet under the sun and it doesn't work. And when we get into the marketing, I'll explain kind of why that is. But I think that the first solution, man, is you gotta have something that's really good. And I think we both have experience there. When I first started, the very first time I ever came to you guys, I had, I think it was like 2,000 followers on Instagram, which is nothing by today's standards. And I think at that time, I know I was doing over 100K a month, but I might have almost been to like 200K. And so it was never a game of being super popular or being an influencer or selling something crazy. It was the fact that I had dug in, I wanted to help people and I had a certain way of helping people. And as I've gotten to know you guys, you guys went into a space and you're like, we're just gonna put out great information and we're gonna put out the truth and we're not gonna try to be successful overnight. But the people that we connect to, they're gonna get what they actually need from us. And they're gonna get answers and it's gonna work. And when you start delivering those results, people tell their friends and they tell their friends and it's like, holy shit, things actually come together and growth happens organically instead of being forced. Yeah, and I wanna get into a little more detail about, you said having a quality product or solving solutions. Some people watching this right now may think, oh, I can get someone to lose 30 pounds. So I can solve their problem or I can get somebody to look fit in 90 days. That's not a solution to the problem. Millions of people every year lose weight. They also gain it back. The real solution is they get fit and healthy forever. It's not a temporary thing. That's the challenge now. Now it's hard because any idiot could get somebody to lose 30 pounds. Actually, I think everybody knows what they could do to lose 30 pounds right away. Stop eating, change yourself to a treadmill. It's gonna happen. But are you, is that sustainable? Is that healthy and is that really the way you wanna live? And so that's, I think, I'm glad you started there because you gotta know what you're doing and you gotta really solve it and not pretend so. Well, it's counter social media culture right now. If everybody goes and they scroll, everybody that's listening to this, if they go scroll Instagram, they scroll Facebook, they get on YouTube, they get pre-rolled, what are you getting hit with? Here's how to make blah, blah, blah money as a coach. And everyone's like, oh shit, I like this fitness thing. I can make a lot of money. And so what do they focus on first? Marketing and sales. They're like, oh, my sales skills aren't good enough. Oh, my marketing's not good enough. I don't know how to acquire customers. Well, I'm sorry, but the majority of the people out there, you also suck at creating results. And I mean, we can all say it, like we've been around and I mean, dude, we've been to local, you know, big box gyms and you laugh at some of the things that you see trainers doing. And listen, everybody starts somewhere. If I go back to the very first sessions I ever did with my clients, I'd probably be laughing at myself. And if I go back to like the very first diet programs I ever wrote when I was like 19 and young and naive, I would probably still laugh at myself too. So, but so we all have like a learning curve. But there was a point where when I went completely online and I was like, I'm going all in, I knew I could deliver results to literally anybody. Anybody that came my way, I knew I had the principles, I knew I was rooted in science and I knew that no matter who you were, I could deliver a result. And if I couldn't, I wasn't gonna take you on. And that became the foundation of what I did. You know, for us, our whole movement is impact over everything. If I can't help you, I don't want your money. I don't want you wasting your time with me. I wanna help you find a resource that can. That's not marketed anywhere. Like you can't go open up your social media today and find anybody outside of NCI, our friend Jordan and his certification. You can't find anybody saying like, here's the tools you need to create the best results. Cause that's not sexy, right? What coaches out there are like, great, I can create amazing results. They have a hard time correlating that to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. So instead, what do the marketers do? They put it in your face. They're like, here's millions of dollars. Here's your path to millions of dollars. Except everybody's forgetting the one prerequisite is you actually have to fucking be good at what you do. I think that's unique to our space too. Like we were talking off air before and I was sharing with you like my experience getting into fitness and being interested in the business side. And I felt like back when I first got into it, you know, two decades ago, so much of the focus was geared in what Sal was saying, which, you know, you've never heard a trainer say like, I'm gonna make, I wanna make millions of dollars. That's why I'm gonna become a trainer. I wanna help people. So a lot of the information that was circulating at that time was certifications and how to be a better coach and you know, how to program better and nutrition advice. That's true. And just how to be better at your job. But nobody was talking about how to make money. And so- I didn't know any wealthy trainers back then, that's true. No, and so everything was sitting around like, and then if we talked about, like if you were asking us 20 years ago, like who are some of the best, the names of the people that you talk were like the brilliant science-based guys, right? Well, dude, back then we talked about Bill Phillips, right? As like the famous one. And what did everybody say back then? Nobody said Bill Phillips is super rich, right? Like nobody, like, oh, he creates amazing results with Body for Life. And he had the first hundred million dollar supplement company. Absolutely. And he was very rich. But nobody ever, nobody ever talked about his wealth at that time, right? They talked about his growth and his presence, except here's the thing, the world, the world has picked up on different levels of insecurity. And every coach has different levels of insecurity. Actually, I have a big belief in terms of your own business development is only, it's only hindered by your ability to overcome your own insecurities. And so I think that most people that get into health and fitness as a career started with some level of insecurity. They wanted to improve their own body. They wanted to improve their own image. Like I know for me, when I started as an anorexic, I had massive insecurities. I wanted to be liked by females. I wanted to be accepted by other alpha males. And so that drove me into a needing disorder. I overcame that. I was like, okay, my next insecurity was I can't help people enough. So the industry, you know, spoke to me. I went and got my degree. I got every certification under the fucking sun. I went and I started helping people. I started creating some results. My next insecurity was, well, this can't be my career. I don't know any business. So then I went and I learned the business stuff, except my next insecurity was like, well, I'm not good enough, right? I was back to the very beginning in security. I'm not good enough to be the leader of a business or a movement. I overcame that shit. I built a big business. Now my next insecurity was, well, my knowledge won't be accepted by the industry. It took me forever to write NCI. We wrote that back to the same insecurity of I can't lead this movement. Except every time I've overcome an insecurity, it's allowed me to propel myself forward in business. The industry has just picked up on the different levels of insecurity. We're in a very body-confident movement right now. And so people are starting to overcome the whole mirror and scale and all that shit. So we can't pander to that. Instead, we have to pander to people's inability to feel worthy or to feel like they have enough and especially financially. So we do that. We speak to that insecurity. It's like, oh, you don't have enough money. You can make a lot of money. And that's what's selling right now. And I actually think this will become cyclical. I think that if we are listening to this podcast five or 10 years from now, you'll see more knowledge things being talked about because at some point we'll overcome our fear of money. Well, I think that the progression that I saw was beginning, it was all centered around certifications and fitness type knowledge. Nobody was teaching business. Then some smart business, e-commerce people saw an opportunity to go take advantage of a space that nobody was teaching that. So then you get all the charlatans who come in that are great at marketing and selling. They don't know fitness. Yeah, they don't know, right. They don't know fitness. Don't use health. They don't understand that. Don't understand what drives most people like insecurities aren't truly in the business of helping those people. They're all in the business of converting leads. And so then you have that group of people that are teaching the fitness space how you do this and you go about it. And so we're really at this time where we're finally starting to see and I felt that was kind of how our relationship started to develop of people that have that knowledge in the space as far as the science. They care about people. That's their motive. And then they've learned the marketing side and now can teach that to people how to do it the right way. Well, I know for me, the only reason I learned business was one, I needed to grow my own. But number two, when we started certifying coaches in NCI, I knew that we had like the most talented group of humans. Like I know our certs are hands down the best in the world. I know we create the best application in the world, except I saw all these people that could create amazing results. They didn't know how to get clients. They didn't know how to systemize a business. They didn't know how to scale a business. And I said, okay, it's incumbent upon me now as the leader of NCI to go out and be like, okay, here's the tools you need to actually touch more people. And we all know that income is just a function of impact. Like if you are touching enough lives, you're changing enough lives, helping enough people, you're making more and more money. And that was like where we started. I actually learned all the business stuff by necessity. I think now like we're really, really good at it. And I think obviously we're gonna share here shortly like what people can learn from this. But that was never my start game. And I think that there's so many people right now that's where they're starting. Yeah, you know, it's funny when Adam, you made me really go back to when I started as a trainer. I was an 18 year old kid, so passionate about fitness. And I had no concept of how much money, I lived with my parents and they took every, they had no bills. And I remember showing my checks to my parents and them going like, oh my God, you're making a lot of money. And it didn't register to me. Really what I wanted to do was keep training and helping more people. And so I think it's, I mean, it's obvious. It sounds funny, it's business 101, right? Be good at your craft. But we have to remind people, like before you do anything else, you gotta be a good coach. You gotta be a good trainer. You gotta know how to get people where they wanna go. You have to start there. Everything else isn't gonna work very well for you, at least not long-term, if you're not at least good at what you do. Oh yeah, and speaking to the insecurity of that, that was my experience of seeing all the trainers when I first started was just like being confident enough to know that you have this value that these clients are seeking out. And to be able to sell yourself was a very difficult process for trainers when all they wanted to do was run them through the workouts and really educate them. But selling themselves was like always the sticking point where the confidence just wasn't there. And to be able to kind of cross over that and start building that into the way you present information and to be able to ask for what you need to be able to create a viable business for yourself was like such a difficult process. At that time too, we were all lied to. Like we were told to sell the package, which is a horrible thing to sell, and then sell the process. And so you're sitting in the sales seat having just overcome insecurity of being able to deliver. And now you're expected to actually be able to, not only are you selling that our process, you're selling belief in yourself that may not even exist yet, right? And that's a sad reality. That's why a lot of people suck at sales. Is they're trying, they're trying to sell a belief that they don't currently have, which is I can't deliver this result. Selling a lie is, sociopaths can do it, but really selling a lie is hard. I have to believe, if I believe in what I'm selling, I'm gonna sell it better than anybody. If I don't believe in it, it ain't gonna happen. And that's true for 99% of the people out there. And that's where I think levels of insecurity come in. I think people always ask me, what's the fastest way to level up in business? Get better. But part of getting better is self-awareness and self-mastery. Our lowest level program that we sell in NCI is a program called Coaching Mastery. And there's three levels of mastery. So like mastery of self, mastery of connection, mastery of marketplace. There's a reason we don't start in marketplace. I mean, if you don't overcome your own shit, if you can't identify your own stories, if you can't identify what's holding you back, and obviously we teach you how to leverage those stories, but if you can't identify those things and overcome them, you're not gonna make it as business. You're gonna live in a scarcity mindset. You're never gonna find abundance. You're always going to be desiring, which in and of itself is a horrible thing. And you're just going to effectively shit on yourself over and over and over again, which I know firsthand, because I did it for like eight years. Like I was the person that got in my own way when I tried to go online. And I had some of the assets, man. Like I was the first spokesmodel with BodyMillion.com and I had people in my DMs of body space back in the day, like to talk about sliding up in the DM. I was like one of the first. We just brought that app up the other day. It still exists by the way. Yeah, oh, that's crazy. But I was like one of the first there and I had people asking for help all the time, except my insecurity around my ability to deliver to each and every person was there. And so half the time I didn't answer the questions or I didn't make a sale or I didn't make an offer. And I knew intuitively back then I probably could be making a lot of money, but I had the insecurity. And so it wasn't until several years later that I had the skill set that at that point I could confidently tell anybody if you pay me X number of dollars, I'll deliver X result. And our business was able to scale from there. And that's where the experience and education part comes in and putting the work at the self mastery like you're talking about because a lot of times I'll get somebody that will be asking about, I want to build something just like mine pump and how did you guys blow up so fast? I'm like, well, it was fast to you overnight, bro. Because you found me last week and then you see where we're at. Individual decade. I see, but I'm like on year 20, bro. And like there was a lot of mistakes and a lot of failures and a lot of learning that I had to do to get to the place to even find a partners like this to even have an idea that this business would solve a bunch of problems. Like, so you got to remember that. We all, they all want to fast forward right to the hack the Instagram algorithm and get a million followers. Like, no, you don't. It's just like I tell people too that are always like, man, don't you guys want to be on, I used to say we don't want to be on Jordan. We probably could handle it today, maybe today. But just a year ago even, everyone thinks that just getting in front of all these people is the answer to having this super- It'll crush you too. If you suck, you're going to hammer yourself just as much as you could potentially expose yourself up. Getting hyper, creating hyper-awareness and let's just say you actually sell all of the clients or the people that are looking at you. If you can't fulfill, all you've done is created the perfect storm for being known as the coach that sucks. Oh yeah. And that's flat. That's the term is flash in the pan. Yeah. All right, so you got to be good first. You got to be able to deliver first. Know your stuff. That's number one. You got that. All right, so now I'm a trainer. I've got some certifications. I've learned some stuff. I think I'm good enough to really start helping people and working with the average person. What's the next step? Yeah, and this is going to blow some minds because the next part is you have to have a really good offer. And so in the coaching space, everyone's like, well, you know, I've got my month-to-month coaching and I sell it for X number of dollars. And the very first thing I tell every coach is if you're selling coaching, stop selling coaching. And it blows a lot of minds except for the fact that, you know, NCI is certified over 6,000 coaches. So that means I've already put 6,000 of your competitors out in the marketplace. There's plenty of people that have gone through our competitors, right? I think there's 70, 80,000 coaches. There's hundreds of thousands of coaches out in the marketplace, all selling coaching. They're all selling month-to-month continuity. Some of them have picked up on defined end products, but most of them are selling month-to-month continuity somewhere between $200 and $500 a month. And it's like, well, what's unique about you? We'll all connect with you. Really, motherfucker? You don't think the person down the street is gonna say the same shit? Well, I care about you. Oh, and the other coaches don't give a fuck about you, right? Like that's a great unique selling proposition. The problem isn't coaching, there is no USP, right? There is nothing unique that you can do in the process. And so everybody's like, well, how am I different? And the truth is, as a coach, you're not that different. And so you're always gonna have a small handful of people that choose you based on proximity, based on referral. And that's cool, except you can't grow a massive coaching business purely based on proximity and referral, like it's just not gonna work that way. So what you have to start defining in your offer is you have to understand the wins that you actually create for somebody. And I used to, I made this mistake early on in when I was doing business stuff, is everyone's like, well, how do I fix my business? And I'm like, let's just have a conversation. I'll tell you everything that's broken. And I really hadn't even created self-identification that there's really four major things that I look at in the business. And when instead of having these transactionally based conversations around like fix your leads or whatever, I was like, dude, there's only four things we need to look at. What is your source of leads? What's your source of nurture? What's your offer in your sales? And what's your LTV? Everyone's like, oh, like it became really simple. And so I encourage all coaches have a system, have a very clearly defined system. By the way, as a coach, it's gonna make your life a million times easier. Because when you get on a console with somebody, if you look at an email, you should quickly know which part of your system somebody's fucking up in, right? It shouldn't be, oh, they had a cheat night on Thursday night and that's what threw everything off. Okay, well, maybe that's the consistency part of your program. But you know, if most coaches out there, they probably put everybody through a few very distinct phases. I think, you know, my good friend Mike Milner that owns POP, right? He puts people through three very specific phases, which the first is metabolic priming. And effectively that's like reverse dieting, right? Like I'm getting you back to maintenance. Every person that goes to him has probably tried eight to 10 different diets, right? And they're like, clearly they're probably some level of metabolic adaptation. They probably need to restore homeostasis. They need to get back to maintenance to have the ability to burn fat at a reasonable rate or to achieve some level of result, right? So he starts with like metabolic priming. Then I think he goes into some sort of like fat loss activation. I forget what he calls it, but it's something there where this is the actual diet. This is where we're gonna create results. And then the final component is like, hey, I'm not gonna get you results and just leave you hanging. You wanna keep those results, right? So he calls it lifestyle optimization. So the big difference is if somebody goes to him and they're like, well, you know, why are you different than someone else? He's like, listen, at the end of the day, you're gonna get a diet, right? You're gonna get a workout plan. You're gonna get communication. Has anyone ever said differently? No. Well, has that worked for you? No. Great. That's because what you've done in the past is only communication, only training, only diet. And it wasn't predicated on achieving these three things. Have you ever optimized your metabolism? I'm like, no, what the fuck does that mean? Great. That's probably why you've been failing because you've never optimized your metabolism. So let's prime your metabolism for fat loss. As soon as you say that, now they're bought in, right? Great. Do you think that if your metabolism was primed for fat loss that you would be more successful with a diet? They're like, yeah, probably. Great. That's when we're gonna move into the fat loss activation. Now, do you wanna achieve fat loss and then gain it all back? Cause I know you've done that a couple of times and you're here. I'm like, no, no, no, I wanna keep it off. Great. Have you ever learned how to do that? No. Oh, well we have that in our program too. And so over the course of six months we're gonna teach you those three things. Well, that becomes a super compelling offer, right? And really at the end of the day, offer is just a perception of value. People are not making an investment based on something that they think they're gonna get an inordinately low return on value, right? Or return on investment. If they're investing three grand into a six month program, they think they're getting five, seven, 10K in return. Now you have to start stacking that value. So you have to stack that value in wins. You have to stack that value in results. But you also need to think about things like guarantees. One of the best offers I've seen in our space is my friend Joe Harris that owns Keto lifestyle diet. He basically takes people, he starts them in Keto. Takes very overweight clients, improves insulin sensitivity, does things like that. And ultimately transitions them to a balanced lifestyle where they can have carbohydrates. Genius approach, right? And it's a year long program. He's like, if you don't achieve your goal in a year and you've done everything I've asked you to, I'll keep working with you completely for free until you hit your goal. Yeah, that's a great offer. That's an amazing offer because it removes all barrier of risk. And he's literally putting it on the other person where he's like... He's fully committed too. Yeah, and anybody that buys in, his level of attrition is so ridiculously low. And it's because anybody that buys in, they know the only way they fail is if they fuck up, not the diet. That's why he's had success. You just said that so much more eloquently than I've probably ever presented to my trainers. I used to tell my trainers whenever they would walk a deal or they couldn't scale their business or sell any personal training that. It always comes down to two things, value and price. Either your price is way too high for the amount of value you're providing or you're not giving enough value for the price that you're asking. Can I have one thing to that? Yeah, go for it. And I think value and price are a function of certainty. I think that people will only not invest in you quote unquote based on price. And I think price is completely bullshit based on their lack of certainty as to what that price will be relative to the value that they perceive it to be. And I think if you can create more certainty, a la guarantees, a la creating wins, having very defined processes they've never heard about, I think that's where you can start to bring the level of certainty up which brings their barrier of investment down. Oh yeah, and a big problem too is when you're a coach or trainer and you don't have confidence in yourself, you don't see the value and even the price that you're presenting. Like I've had trainers actually tell me, I wouldn't buy training for $3,000. It's like, well, why? You obviously don't lack confidence in yourself. The way I used to present it, Adam, because I'd had the same exact conversation about price and value and sometimes they get these looks like, well, no, because it's too much money. It's okay. Well, take the most expensive package of training that you can sell, which would probably be, I don't know, a couple thousand dollars. Could I sell you a house here in San Jose for that price? I bet you I would have a line out the door with 10,000 people willing to buy that because it's worth it, right? There's perceived value already there. Well, if it's worth it, then they will pay it so your job is to make it worth it and bring them that value. The price means nothing at that point. Well, dude, what kind of cars do you like? Like what's a car that you would like? Which one of you loves cars? Adam, what's a car that you like? I love the Range Rover Sport. Okay, Range Rover Sport, right? Like $130,000 truck, right? Is $30,000 in your world, like it's a good amount of money, right? Like it's a lot of money. Like if I asked you for $30,000 today, you're probably not just giving it to me. Okay, cool. If I said today, dude, on the street, $130,000 Range Rover Sport, are you buying it like today, like outside? For $130,000? Yeah, no. Okay, $130,000 for a Range Rover Sport outside, are you buying it today? Yeah, no brainer. Okay, you just told me $30,000 is a lot of money, right? It's a function of certainty and value. I took something that you really like, something that you're confident in the value in that is perceived to be something super high. And I just gave it to you at a number that you just told me is a shit load of money. So $30,000 for people's a lot of money except I gave you something insanely valuable and something that you're certain in will deliver on that amount of money. But people are already perceiving, oh my God, $5,000 is a lot of money. For who? Right. You don't know the fucking situation. Dude, I had somebody come in to NCI six months ago, sold his car to pay for NCI. And this goes back to the whole results thing. Five years ago, I probably wouldn't have taken the client. But I'm so confident in what we do that I was like, I know that I'm your last resort. If you're willing to sell your car to come to me, I know I can make you a lot of money. I used to share stories with my trainers about clients that would pull out home equity lines to buy personal training from me. It's like, if you build enough value, I mean, this is how we started here, right? When we got into the space, we knew there was an opportunity with selling online programs. We knew there was a ton of crap there and an opportunity to sell that. The average price when we did our research was between $27 and $57 is the average digital online program. We had a program ready to sell before the very first episode was recorded, Maps Anabolic. We did not release that for over a year. And what we did for that year was build this tremendous value in ourselves. And then guess what we got to do when we released that program? Sell it for five times the normal market value. And it sold like gangbusters. You also knew it was an amazing product. Well, yeah. Well, that's the thing. So let me ask you about this guy that sold his car. How's he doing? He made $10,000 in his third month of this. There you go. And so here's the other part of this. And I'll bring it back to fitness, right? You have a client in front of you that you're trying to sell coaching for $1,000, $2,000, whatever the price is. If they knew that for that investment, they would get fit, healthy, lose weight, and it would stay off forever and have a good relationship with food and exercise that worked, they would spend way more money than that amount. All of a sudden that $1,000 or $2,000 of coaching, they'd spend $200,000. If they knew that that would happen, the difference is they're not sure that that's gonna happen. I'm gonna hire you, but I'm not sure in you and I'm not sure in myself. And that goes back to certainty. Right. So in a sales conversation, you're creating certainty. But at the same token, I would argue 90% of coaches that are on the sales side of the conversation, they're not certain. That's right. And that's a fucking problem. Yes. Like if you're a coach, you know, listen, like I said, taking on a $5,000 payment from this guy, he sold his car to get five grand to pay me, was five years ago that would have been so scary. Except I know definitively, if you come to my program and you do exactly what I said to do, you're going to make well beyond $10,000. I mean, the number of six and seven figure earners we've churned out in the last year is absurd and I would put it against anybody in the industry. Now, when you're coaching these trainers up, is this one of the first major hurdles right here? Offer creation? Yeah. A million percent. Cause everyone's got a shit offer and everyone's got a commodity offer. I mean, here's the reality, we could talk about it in the sports supplement world. Right? Creatine, basic supplement. Assuming it's Creature, which most people want, right? Where are you going to get it? Yeah. Amazon. Why? Cause cheap, fast, easy. Cause it's cheap, right? Okay. Assuming coaching is the same, individual to individual. Where are you getting it? Yeah, the cheapest. The cheapest. It's all the same, it's the same, right? And so everybody's in a race to the bottom. Everyone's like, well, how do you sell high ticket coaching? And then you got gurus out there will just sell high ticket, you know, defined end commitments, except it's all sleaze. You're making really shitty promises. And you're getting people that are few and far between. Jason, this was the downfall of the company that brought us up 24 our fitness. When we were there, they were crushing. They were number one, blowing the doors off. And then they brought people in from outside the industry who just said, this is literally what they said. I was in meetings and they would say, we have more clubs than everybody. We have good gyms. We're just going to be cheaper and we'll crush the competition. And all of us who worked in gyms and fitness were like, no, don't do that. That's not how it works. Like, yeah, we got a nice gym, but not selling gym. What we're selling is you're getting fit and healthy and you're getting connections and all that stuff. Well, anyway, of course they were wrong. There's a couple of things there. One, they're not really making all their money there. They're also making money on PT, upsells and supplements, right? Like there was a big LTV 24 hour fitness. And so now if you're changing the front end, if you're changing the front end entry point, you're bringing in a cheaper consumer. Now your back end LTV is greatly affected because their desire to purchase. Less people get results, less people get fit. That's the unintended consequences that they didn't see. Massively unintended consequences they never thought about. The other problem is there's only one cheapest. And I can tell you 24 hour fitness was not the cheapest. They were cheap, but they weren't the cheapest. Planet fitness today is the cheapest. There's no point in being second cheapest. So if somebody's commodity shopping you, you don't go to Amazon and find the second cheapest. You find the cheapest fucking thing and you order that. And so there's no benefit in being second cheapest. This is why I am a believer in mostly high ticket, but at the end of the day, if you're a commodity, you're going to struggle in high ticket. So inside of your offer creation, if you can't define how you're different, you have a problem. And most coaches struggle there. Now that then bleeds into their marketing. Cause I'm like, well, great. How are you going to promote yourself? Well, I'm going to talk about nutrition. Oh, you and the hundred million other motherfuckers in the world talking about nutrition. Like what makes your nutritional content any different? Well, it's my face. Okay, great. It's like a thousand people that follow your face. Got it. Except how are you ever going to distinguish yourself in the eyes of the consumer? You can't. But if you knew your offer, if you had very specific wins, do you think your marketing would get easier? And again, using the examples of Mike and Joe, if Mike talks about metabolic priming, nobody else can talk about that. If Mike's talking about lifestyle optimization, nobody else can talk about that. If Joe's talking about the fact that on keto, you should eventually be able to have carbs. Nobody else can talk about that. If Joe's talking about, you're going to achieve your results no matter what, no one else can talk about that. Oh, now their offer turned into marketing. It also shows up in the sales script, but I think we'll talk about that and I'll let you know like where that part shows up. But if you don't have an offer, dude, and this is 95% of the people we are talking offline, one of our friends, he just wrote a book, right? On offers, I know him very well. There's a reason he started with offers and not client acquisition. Because your acquisition, if you don't have an offer is nearly impossible and it won't be nearly as good. This list is an order of importance for sure. This is the order I process everything. Yes, and by the way, it wasn't, 24 Hour Fitness wasn't the cheapest. In 1998, an all-club membership was $300 a join and $45 a month, which was very, which is today super expensive for a membership. Back then it was very expensive and we crushed because we did a lot of the stuff that you're talking about right now. All right, what's the net? So you got the, you know what you're doing. You could deliver results, you've got an offer, it's unique, it's unique to you. What's next? Yeah, so you guys have amazing programs, right? Maps, anabolic, like strength, like all of them, right? If I put you guys in an empty lecture hall and I said you have to sell everybody in here, how many sales are you gonna make? Everybody, bro. Everybody except the problem is that number is zero. And it's gonna make you zero dollars. And so it stands to reason that everybody needs leads. Just people in front of you. Just people, you need attention, right? And this is- So this is the one everybody gets hung up on, which it is important. Everybody gets hung up because they don't understand it's two-fold, right? And so we've talked a lot about the social media influencers. Well, social media influencers have what I call earned attention. And most, we've all heard the stories of social media influencers struggling to create big business. In fact, I was supposed to go out, I was supposed to go from here to Colorado to meet with four social media influencers, huge names, million plus followers each, all of whom are not producing maybe 15K a month in business. With a million followers. With a million followers struggling at producing 15K a month. And- Which by the way is a false signal for some people when they're first building it because they're making some money. And if you were at zero dollars and now you're making 15, you think maybe you're kind of okay at business. So I think that's another- I think a monkey could make 15 grand a month off of a million followers. Well, that's true, but you don't know that until you get it. Or some people assume that this is the formula. It's just- And most people assume them to be very wealthy. They equate follower number to wealth. And I can definitively tell you after the number of people that have reached out for my help in that realm, it's not in any way true, right? But they have what we call earned attention. And the problem is they don't control that attention. If Zox woke up, like woke up tomorrow and he was like, watch this, let's fuck with the world, right? Change the algorithm. Snap my fingers. No, no, fuck the algorithm. Let's just shut down social media. Let's just pause it for a week. Your business is gone. You're irrelevant in the world. Nobody knows who you are. They don't know where to find you. You don't have access to them. You can't communicate to them. You can't put a message in front of them. You can't market to them. You can't sell them. This is so important to know because something hits so true. Right, so this is what we call earned attention. Your Facebook, your Instagram, your TikTok, your YouTube, right? At the end of the day, Mark Zuckerberg and the algorithm define who sees the content you put out. You're in control of the content you put out, but the algorithm defines who is actually going to see it. So there's actually six sources of leads. Earned attention is actually one of them because if people happen to see your stuff, it's an offer and they take you up. They can buy from you, right? Not the end of the world, it's how the influencers make small amounts of money, but there's also owned attention, paid attention. There's referrals, there's partners and affiliates, and there's outbound. I have a firm belief that if you wanna create a massive amount of leads, a person only becomes a lead, first of all, when they move into a traffic source that you own, right? So all these people with a million followers, they can throw out offers all day long. Those people don't wanna hear your offer, right? They don't give a fuck. Like if it's a dude with abs, they probably followed you because you have abs. If it's a really hot chick, they followed you because you're a hot chick, right? They're not following you because they think that you have something to sell them. So they don't care about you. Not only that, you also, the more you do that in pursuit of trying to make more money, the more you turn off the people that are paying attention to you. So you gotta be careful. Yeah, where's the butt pics? That's all I wanna see. That's what most people want, right? So the reality is if you can move that attention though to a traffic source that you own, and I always say a traffic source you own or lease, which would be your email list or your Facebook group. I believe Facebook groups for the most undervalued piece of real estate currently in terms of generating revenue. We talked about this a little off the air. I can personally tell you I've made over $5 million this year off of a Facebook group. And so if you can move that earned attention into own detention, now you can communicate with them regularly. But the, like I guess the prerequisite here is they've raised their hand and moved themselves to that, right? It's illegal to go out and take a bunch of emails, put them on an email list, and then market to them. That's illegal, like you can go to jail for it. It's illegal, right? And people have to acknowledge it to just move people into your Facebook group, right? Like there's no way that I'm aware of. It's not illegal, but like you can't move them into your Facebook group without their approval. They have to say, yes, I'll accept this invite. So there's been some level of acknowledgement from a lead that says, yes, I'm interested in hearing more about what you have to say. I was just gonna interrupt you, so that's the difference between it being earned and it being owned. Correct. Because you said Facebook, so someone might be going, wait a second, you just said Facebook is like Instagram and Twitter that's just earned. How does it become owned? Well, it becomes owned because this person is opt into your, they say, I want more of you. And we could define that by level of intimacy, right? So the level of intimacy of touch on email list is like, if I send an email, it's going to your inbox, right? Now you can choose whether or not to open it. If I make a post in my Facebook group, the level of visibility is exponentially higher. But if I put something out on TikTok, I don't know if you're gonna see it. If I put something out on my public news feed on Facebook or Instagram, I don't know if you're gonna see it. I don't see half the people, probably 80% of the people that I follow, I don't see their stuff, right? And the algorithm controls that. So that's earned, like you somehow got their attention, you got the follow, you got the friend request, whatever, but owning it is you putting it out, guaranteeing that they are going to see the message, which effectively is marketing, right? We're putting out a very clear message to either add value to you or to make you an offer. No, here's another point to that, is the owned aspect of this. Let's say you own an email list and you can make these email lists, you can build them in many different ways. One can be a free offer and they opt in and then in that email list, you continue to provide good content and value. So now that email list continues to grow. But what's good about that is you also protect yourself a little bit. You know, I had a friend who had a business and he was generating $700,000 a year, no joke, through Facebook ads and through social media. They changed the algorithm. He went from 700,000, same everything, everything the same, from 700 to 70, all because they overnight changed how you reach people and what the deal is. And because he didn't own any of that, he was screwed. Now if he owned an email list, you know, unless they at some point decided to drop you, which is very, very unlikely. Never, it never happened, by the way. Right, this is yours. And so now if you have 500, 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 people and a good percentage are opening your content because you're providing lots of value, well that's yours, those are your leads. Yeah, I don't know if you're gonna get into this or not, but that's another important piece is once you got that, you own those leads is to nurture those and take care of them so you train them to want to open and listen to what you have to say and don't look at it as like, oh, I've got them now, now I'm just gonna sell them right away because you'll lose them just as fast as the earned leads. So I want to touch on that, but I want to go back to leads because I think a lot of people are like, well, how do I get that, right? Like I don't have a lot of friends or I don't have a lot of followers or whatever. I think everyone needs to reverse engineer that question. Why should somebody become a lead? What are you doing on your email list that is worth somebody giving you their email? What are you doing in your Facebook group that is worth people showing up to see? And people are like, well, you know, whatever, I post and I'm like, great, like you asked a question because it's an engagement question and that's not adding value to anybody. So things like free trainings, things like giveaways, things like, we call it value exchange content. So, you know, you're giving value or you're giving content in exchange for them giving their valuable email information or their valuable presents. And if you can't convince a person to give you something back for free, which is their email, you have got, and this is, I mean, we're laughing right now, but this is something that I've helped a lot of kids that are trying to build a business out like, listen, you need to rethink your offer and your business because you can't even convince people to see you for free. They don't even want to pay attention to your Instagram or come in your Facebook group where you're offering free information. There's obviously a disconnect there with what you think you have to offer. And what they really want. Right, they don't even want to. That likely goes back to your offer. That's right. Because your content's probably a function of your offer. So if you're putting out content that's leading people to an offer and nobody's connecting to the content when no wonder your offer's not converting, right? Nobody likes your free shit. Nobody gives a hell about your paid shit. Yeah, or they have no alignment, right? It's booty shots and then, oh, by the way, I could buy myself. I could, yeah, yeah. I could put an install a stereo in your car. Yeah, it's not why I'm here. Depends on how they show up. I don't know. You know what are those shorts? Because they have shorts. Maybe I'll hire you. Yeah, you'll sell a few. That's the thing about getting a large social media following, I mean, there will be a few people that will still get you to install their stereo. And then the other source of leads I talked about, I'm one of the few people that I think paid media and referrals, partners and affiliates and outbound. I'm a believer that even those four sources, they can be source of leads on their own to drive people to a sale. I think that current digital strategy says those should be sources of owned media. And I think that most people right now, especially in the coaching space, like quick tip, if you're a coach, don't run Facebook ads. Do not run Facebook ads to a coaching offer. It won't convert. I can tell you after a quarter million dollars of testing, zero dollars in return, it doesn't work. But running traffic to owned media and then nurturing that own media. Like to a free group or two. To a free group or to your email list or to a nurture framework that I'll get into here in a second. We learned that same lesson. Yeah. Like you cannot make direct art. And you can go into the red and then you can like liquidate some of your costs with backend upsells and you can understand lifetime value. And like it's just a big numbers game, but for most coaches. Unless you have a huge name, like if you're the rock and then you sell a program, like people can buy it. I think what that really highlights is it just goes to show you how much really good free content exists out there. That's how competitive it is. You think you're gonna come out with your great coaching program and think you're gonna go sell it to cold leads. When they can get free stuff. You're trippin' when there's tons of free good content out there. I can tell you on the paid side, even cost per lead on free content is still relatively high. I pay on average eight to $10 a lead for free stuff. Meaning I'm just giving you $10. Like I'm giving Facebook $10 for your attention. Like that's it, which is a year or two ago used to be able to get that for $2 or $3. I do wanna highlight though, the value in that is that you're getting a very specific lead for free. You've raised your hand and said, you like what I have to say. That free thing was in line with my offer. So I've pre-framed you, hey, I'm giving you this result. Oh, you like that result? Do you think I could get you bigger results? Great, you should come into our paid program. By the way, you look at the breakeven point. I mean, the bare minimum of entry with me is $1,500. $10 a lead, I can spend a lot of money to buy our customers. All you need is one to hit after hundreds. Could literally spend. So obviously we gotta have leads. We all agree leads are the lifeblood of a business. You could have an amazing offer, you have no leads. You could be the best salesman in the world, but if you don't have sales appointments, nothing happens. But like you said, you can't have somebody come in your community and then just like throw it down their throat, like buy my shit, buy my shit, buy my shit. Like I think Billie Jean is the only person on the internet that can get away with repeatedly saying buy my shit. And I love Billie, like him and I are good friends. But you can't do that as a coach because everybody's kind of saying that and at the end of the day, it's a value construction, right? Like we're supposed to be giving value. You're supposed to obviously be paying for that value at some point. And so this is where I think nurture is another very overlooked part of it. And everyone thinks of nurture as content. And I actually think that you need to have nurture frameworks. One of the first questions I ask a new client is if I put a gun to your head and I said you have to produce 20 to 30 sales calls in five days, can you do it? And very few people say yes. And that's a problem. Because if you need to produce cash in your business, you need to be able to produce cash in your business. And there's two ways to do it. One, you can charge your current customers more money, but if you don't have current customers, that's a problem. Two, you need to be able to get people to an offer. You need to be able to get them to a phone call, to a sales call. And if you don't know how to do that, you're definitely deficient in your ability to grow your business. And this is where I think frameworks come in. I have three, I just added a fourth that are highly effective. I can literally print leads on demand for virtually any business out there. They just work really well in the fitness space, but they're all predicated on value. They're all predicated on you receiving something super high level that will get you a win that will move you towards your goal guaranteed for a super low barrier. And sometimes that's free, sometimes that's I'm gonna work with you for a short amount of time. Right, like we've all heard of like these $97 fitness challenges. Well, $97 fitness challenges, those don't work. Like I'll just openly tell you, they don't work because you're actually attracting a super low barrier client. I'll give away some of the gold. A free fitness challenge will convert way better than a $97 challenge, right? Because a free fitness challenge just captures commitment. You're not capturing commitment to a certain price point. You're not capturing commitment. You already set the anchor right there. You already set it. So now how are we gonna take you from 97 to 3000? It's not gonna work really well. So I actually think all these people that are looking at it myopically as front end money or trying to liquidate whatever ad spend they have, I think that's very flawed. I think that you just need to be able to move them close to an offer, but by moving them to an offer you have to show value. You have to define where they are today and you have to show them what becomes possible because if we go back to it, certainty and belief, right? We said those are the two things that will ultimately convert. So how do you do that in your nurture? If you can do that effectively for all of your leads, game over. Right, so it's silly, probably not super effective example of what would be a nurture framework. Just to give an example of what a framework is, let's say I have an email list and let's say there's 500 people on there and if I send out an email, let's say 20% of them open it, which is really good, right? So 20% open and once a week I send out a newsletter. And in that newsletter, fitness tips, favorite exercise of the week, a recipe, right? And let's say once a month I put out that I coach someone for free or do a free, but you can tune in so you can come over here, but that's offered every month and then maybe something else. In essence, what you're saying is you have systems on this nurturing framework and so people can start to rely on the fact that you're building value. And here's the other thing, you build authority this way. Like if they hear you once a week, twice a week, every single week for five months and at some point they're like, Jason knows a shit. And then it's as easy as being like, by the way, I have a spot open for coaching. Boom, I want that right away. Yeah, so that way works. Now take what you said and put it on steroids and say instead of once a week and now, oh, by the way, the next five days, I'm gonna teach you a very specific outcome. So let's say we're talking about fat loss, I'm gonna teach you how to lose 10 pounds this week. The five steps that all of my clients use, right? That you're probably not using the five steps that you need. Day one, give them step one, give them an implementation standpoint, have them come back day two. The people that are still there on day five that are following the advice, they are super hot leads, you've given them five days of value, effectively given them the gold. And now you're saying, hey, great, you lost 10 pounds. It's probably not the first time in your life that you lost 10 pounds. You actually wanna keep it off and keep going. We should probably work together. But you've given them reason to believe in you. It's no longer hype, it's no longer conjecture, it's tangible, they can touch it, they can feel it. They've experienced it for five days. Well, this is, you're literally building a digital version of the normal in-person sales cycle. I used to do this spiel with my trainers, where I say, you know the difference between a good closer and a great closer is this. A good closer can push anybody into the sale. A great closer can pull somebody into a sale. And so, and what I'd tell them is like, when you're in your presentation and afterwards they'd come to me and be like, Adam, I didn't sell it, whatever, and I said, well, you know, at what point did they ask you about how much training is? Well, never, I just got the binder out at the end because it was the end and I did it. I said, well, there's your mistake right there. You did not build enough value to get them to even ask you that they want. And then you'd try and sell them. The likelihood you're gonna close that deal is very, even some of the best closers aren't gonna close that deal. So somewhere in your presentation or the value that you're providing is where the miss is at. It's not in your sales closing skills or the sales presentation. It's that you haven't done a good enough job of building so much value in yourself that these people are such hot leads. They wanna know, well, how much, Jay? You've already helped me out so much. Like, what's it gonna cost for me to be a client of yours? That's what you're searching. That's such good segue because ultimately what nurture is about is three things. Is one, you need to make sure that your clients start in the pain that they're currently in, right? Your prospects are, they need to recognize the pain they're currently in of not having the results they desire. Two, you need to showcase the possibility of what they can achieve working with you. And ultimately, if you've nurtured them right, the offer presentation and the sales conversation is about them inquiring about your path, your unique opportunity, your offer, right? It is an inquiry into that path. It's not you presenting the path. So you start them in pain, you showcase possibility. So the whole point of the nurture is you wanna lose 10 pounds. Well, you're in pain, you need to lose weight, right? The possibility is I'm gonna show you over the course of five days how to lose 10 pounds the end of five days. You've successfully lost some weight. I've shown you possibility in your life. Now I want you to ask me how do we keep this going? If you ask me that, I've now got you and this transition to the next phase of all this which is sales, right? And everybody thinks they suck at sales. I've got two very strong beliefs on sales. One, people attach entirely too much to the outcome. They think that the whole point of a sales conversation is to sell. I don't believe sales is about selling at all. And I think that if you go into a sales conversation and you're trying to sell your shit, you suck. You already lost. You're gonna lose. Selling is not telling. No, and that's such a good line. I've never heard that. It's an effective communication. Sal says it all the time on the show. That's exactly all it is. It's just being able to communicate your points. My whole goal in a sales conversation is to make sure that you feel and confirm, I think is a better word, is to confirm that you feel inadequate with your current abilities to achieve what you actually desire. And I do that through questions. If any, I have so many recorded sales calls and I could like release them. But if you ever heard me give a sales call, I talk no more than 10 to 15% of them. Okay, so one of the first rules that I teach in my sales courses is you have two ears in one mouth, use them in proportion. Listen twice as much as you talk. And that's where that selling is not telling. I think a lot of people think selling is like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to someone in front of you. No, they will tell you. That's a presentation. You need to listen and hear the information. They'll tell you everything that you need to know. And it's an effective communication is listening more than it is talking. It's so funny, because we all are, because obviously we didn't grow up together in this business, but we all have a different way of communicating the same exact thing. Like, that was my push and pull. When you said that, I was like, oh, here it is. Like, that's perfect. That's exactly what Tom was like. Sure, maybe the best of best sales guys could push you and talk you into a sale. And then you leave with what's called buyer remorse. Because they got bullied into it. And the other person has just felt like, oh my God, I'm just gonna say yes, because I'm afraid of this conversation. I just wanna get out of this conversation. And then they go home and they 24 hour cancel or they feel terrible about it. Whereas if you can ask the right questions and lead that person into the sale, they leave excited as shit. They can't wait to get started. By the way, asking questions is a very easy way to direct a conversation in any direction you wanna go. What's your favorite color? Blue. Yeah, so now we're talking about your favorite color. So asking questions also allows you to direct a conversation and kind of move it in the way you wanna go. By the way, you have to go into this with first off, really having a passion for helping that person. If you're not that person, now you're just bullshitting. And I'm gonna tell you something right now. You can get away with bullshitting a little bit, but you'll never be great. And you'll never be really successful. There's a very, very small percentage that can be very successful bullshitting people. And it's usually because they're gifted somehow or some other way or whatever. Right, and sociopaths. But for most people, it doesn't work. So because I believe and understand what I do, and this is how I used to communicate it to people is I would say, look, if there was some technology that I could literally transmit my knowing of what you could accomplish and how you could accomplish it and how it would change your life. If I could just transmit that to your brain, I wouldn't have to sell you anything. You would give me your money and say, let's do this. We don't have that technology. Instead, we have words and we have ears and we have questions and we have conversation. And it's the same exact thing. It's a little harder, but that's really what it's all about. And that's why it's a good sales person is effective communication is effort, it doesn't feel pushy. It doesn't feel stressful. It feels good. You gotta remember the person that's in there, what do they want? They wanna know that you care. They wanna know that you have a plan. They wanna know that you're confident. And you have to be able to communicate that and convey that information so they feel that you have these answers and you've really listened to them and understand them. And so for you to be able to understand them is where they feel bought in. That's one of my favorite quotes. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Well, in a sales conversation, I think two things have to happen to really to achieve the sale. They have to first, they have to understand that you understand them, right? Or you have to actually understand them, but then they have to also understand that you understand them. And so as coaches, we do understand our prospects. We know the pain they're in and we talked about it most of the time. But they don't know that. Most of them don't know that. So really good, like you said, we have words, we have communication. I think every coach or every trainer, anybody that wants to be successful in any endeavor, if you're looking for one area to level up your life, get better at communication. Being a good communicator and an effective communicator will change your world. It transfers into everything. Oh, that's, I mean, I'd say that's 80 to 90% of the success in being a good coach. Why? Because although I'm helping, even if you're in front of me and I'm training you and I'm teaching head exercise and you're with me for a year, two years, three years, it's lots and lots and lots of conversations and working through shit and how can I get better with my diet? And wow, this is really challenging for me. And man, it's hard for me to be consistent. And wow, I really crave this, those cookies. And oh man, I know, I don't like the way I look and I hate my body and ooh, I'm tired. It's constant sales. I'm constantly selling this person how we can move in the right. It's no different than being led up a mountain to the goal and it's cold as shit and dark and I can't see anything. And I got the freaking Sherpa in front of me walking and he's saying, follow me. And I don't see anything and I have no idea. I think he'd be leading me off a cliff, but I'm like, okay, it's hard, I'm tired, I trust you, let's go. And I'm gonna keep taking these steps. That's what you're doing. And that is sales skills 100% and it's daily sales skills. The more you force somebody, the more they're gonna resist, right? Like the more you just push on them, the more they're gonna resist. Like one of the best sales calls I just did recently was a $25,000 sale. And I got on the call with this guy, he's an influencer, he's got, I don't know, 60,000 plus followers and he tells me how much he makes per month and I was like, okay, like it's a little unfortunate, it could be better. He was like, yeah, I feel like I should be crushing it. And I'm like, yeah, you probably shouldn't. I'm like, tell me about your assets. And he tells me, I'm like, all right, you got all the prerequisites and I'm like, what's your offer? And I'm like, okay, that could be better, try this. I improved his offer for him. He's like, dude, that's amazing. I'm like, cool. I'm like, well, it sounds like you have some really cool stuff, man, good luck. And he was like, wait, that's it. And I was like, well, yeah. I'm like, you got a lot of followers. Take away clothes is the greatest clothes in the world. I was like, I'm like, you got a lot of followers. You got the prerequisites. I just improved your offer. I'm like, there's a lot of things I could definitely help you with if you wanted me to help you. But I'm like, good luck. And he was like, no, no, no, I want you to help me. And I was like, oh. And I was like, all right, we'll call Dustin. He's our sales guy and he'll sign you up. Like it was done, like right then, like wired us $25,000 a couple of hours later. Like I never push, but I think a lot of people are like, all right, how do I sell? How do I sell them? So is it cool if I give like a framework? Because there's a framework I have for sales that right now is operating on like a 90% plus close rate. I shared this on like a live training and people are freaking out about it. Which just to be clear, if your close rate is over 50% in sales, you're doing good. Over 25%. 100%. Yeah, over 20. If you close a quarter, in fact, our goal, and we actually were one of the highest in the company at the time, if you could close at 25% of new leads that come in, you're closing at a very high rate. The average in the company was like 16 to 17%. Well, and I mean, you guys had a lot colder traffic too. I think a lot of people that are implementing this framework, slightly warmer traffic and traffic source has to be considered. Well, I don't care where you're talking 90% high though. Yeah. So, you know, ultimately we've all heard you got to open up the gap, right? Ask a lot of questions. I like to be super direct. Like get on the sales call, do the whole rapport building thing, exchange pleasantries, and then it's like, great. So let's open up the gap. Where are you at today? Where do you want to get to? Let's figure out how I can help. Immediately open that up. Like this is where you're at, pain is where you want to get to, you know, how can I help? They tell you, this is where most people fuck up. You need to restate that. They need to, number one, know that you heard them. But number two, they need to hear it in a manner that's worse than the way they said it. So if they're like, well, you know, I'm 20 pounds overweight and, you know, I want to lose 20 pounds so I can blah, blah, blah, got it. So, you know, just to confirm today, you're 20 pounds overweight. Like you don't like feeling that way. It's hindering you. Like your wife's not looking at you as much. Like I don't know what else is going on, but there's probably a few things you didn't tell me. You just piled it on there. And so like, I'm going to dig that knife in a little bit deeper. Is that right? And you capture that commitment. That's right. Okay, dope. Can I pause real quick? Here's why that's important. It's because it's not important because you're manipulating the person to feel bad. What Jason is doing is he's revealing the person to himself. Getting the connect to their feelings. Because I'm going to tell you something right now and I guarantee someone watching this right now, a lot of people watching this understand, if you, when you first walked into a gym, that's not the first time you thought about it. You've been thinking about it for a long time and you finally walked in and it's probably months or even years of pain and challenge. So when you go in and the person says, what would you like to do? And this is your answer. I just want to get in a little better shape. No, that's not really how you feel. And so what you're doing is you're revealing the person to themselves, but also they see that you understand. I know I said I want to get in a little better shape. Boy, this trainer understands me. This shit sucks. And I really want to make a change. And to add to that, and I used to tell trainers this all the time many times clients are just going to give you a surface answer to that. And so you're reframing it or feeding. That's right. It is. And they're going to put this kind of this wall up a little bit. Yeah. And then you don't want to get vulnerable. Because I'll tell you right now, you know how many times I've had someone sitting in front of me and in the first five minutes, we're touching on their goal. And then the first five minutes, it's, oh, I want to tone my arms up a little bit. And I'd like to lose like 15 or 20 pounds. And then an hour and a half later hanging out with me and really getting connected. All of a sudden, they're crying, telling me about what their husband said to them when she came out of the shower or some shit. Nothing to fucking do with all these other goals. And there is what drove her into and making sure that you guys can all connect on what why that person is so important. So getting there, right? Making sure you're getting to the real reason and then being able to say it back to them so they can make that connection. So had to stop there. Well, I think that's huge. I think we all perceive vulnerability to be a function of trust, except it goes both ways. You don't just become vulnerable when trust is present. When you become vulnerable, you also create trust. And so I think as you're getting them, as you're capturing their commitment to vulnerability, you're now building trust in the relationship, right? I mean, if we think about it, I met you guys two years ago. I would tell you guys way more things today than the very first time I walked in and probably vice versa, right? Because it was surface level at the time. We've become better friends. And it's like, it happens in every facet of life. So, all right, so we open up the gap, right? You restated to them. You got their commitment. Now we wanna cross off all of the shit they've tried. We wanna rehash a little bit more pain. So listen, I'm assuming this isn't the first thing you've tried to help this, right? Like I'm sure you've tried other things or you've worked with other coaches. Like tell me a little bit about that. What have you done in the past? Keto, carnivore, fasting, vegan, blah, blah, blah. Got it. Again, restate to them all of the things but make it sound worse. So got it. So you did keto, you want carbs. I get it. I had cake earlier today. I love carbs too. That's cool. You tried that carnivore thing except you realized there's more to life than meat. Like vegan, don't get me started. Like I want a burger too. And fasting, like let's be honest, I get hungry in the morning and I love pancakes. Cool, right? So those didn't work, right? Right. You have to get that commitment because they have to remind you those things didn't work because they'll use those as excuses later in the call. Would you mind if I pause you again? I love this. No, I think this is perfect because like more people need to understand the phases. No, I mean this is, I trained, I taught and trained this for years and the reason why you do that is because every statement that you say to the other person can be true or false. So if I tell Jason right now, you know the best flavor of ice cream is chocolate. I don't know, true or false. He could think yes, he could think no. But if I say the best flavor of ice cream is chocolate, wouldn't you agree? If he says yes, we now both agree. So the reason why you get that commitment as you go along is because you've got to both be on the same page and you'll run it and you'll see the snags if that happens. Well, no, that's actually not how I feel. All right, let's dig a little deeper. We can't continue to move on unless we both understand where we're at and we both agree. So that's why it's important to ask, is that right? Because now it makes all those statements true. Yeah, and I mean if you're ever selling from stage or selling digitally or even on Zoom, you're also capturing micro commitments. You're getting them in the habit of, yep, yep, yep, you want to take my money? Yep, right, so you're moving them along. The next, so once we've gotten the rapport, we've gotten the gap and we've gotten out of the way of what they've tried, this is where I think the gold lives is in this one single question. At that moment, I'll literally be like dope, so what's the plan now? And they're like, I don't know. Or it gets really silent. And I'm like, surely you have something in your mind. Like what are you gonna try? And they're like, no, I don't know. Oh, well, that's a problem. So you want to lose 20 pounds, now I'm gonna reset your goal. So you want to lose 20 pounds but you have no idea how you're gonna get it. You've tried all these things. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, well, or that's one answer. The other option is, well, Keto worked initially, so I thought about going back to that. Boom, this is your chance to destroy false beliefs. Because if they're thinking that, they're gonna use it as an excuse later in the call. Let's destroy that now. So they're like, well, Keto works for me, so I was thinking about going back to that. Oh, okay. Well, I guess I should have clarified your goal. Did you say you want to lose 20 pounds and keep it off, or you want to lose 20 pounds and regain it? Because if you want to lose 20 pounds and regain it again, it sounds like Keto's a great solution, you should definitely do that. But if you want to lose 20 pounds and keep it off, that didn't work for you. So which one was it? Like, well, I want to keep it off. Oh, so do you think Keto's gonna work? No, got it. So what's your plan? And I always bring you back to what's your plan. You're like, I don't fucking know. As soon as I capture that commitment, you're rendered helpless. That's right. I don't have a plan or I don't know. You're fucked. So it's like, great. Now you don't want to go into presentation as where most coaches will go right into presentation mode. Well, this is how I'm gonna help you and you scare the shit out of them. And it's like, okay, well, I gotta ask you, there's a lot of potential solutions in the world, right? There's no shortage of diets, no shortage of coaches. Why me? Why are you on the call with me? Why are you seeing me right now? And this is where you're gonna get the next piece of gold. And they're gonna tell you what it is either that they love about your program, they heard about your program. So like something specific to you and what you do. Or they're gonna give you, oh, I saw a so-and-so result. They're gonna say that they love your social proof, right? And build you up. Got it. So you saw Jane, she lost 20 pounds. In fact, a lot of our clients are losing, you know, 20 to 30 pounds on average. It's actually really simple because of our system, right? Like Jane's amazing, don't get me wrong, but it's the system that repeatedly works. I'm sure that if you saw Jane, you saw Mary and you saw Karen and you saw that they have similar results, right? Right. That's when it's like, do you wanna know how it works? Do you wanna know how it works? Not I work, not my coaching works, not anything about me, it. You're putting all the power on your system. Okay, also the scalability part of that is massive. Thank you, because one of the hardest transitions that a trainer, and I remember experienced this as a trainer myself. When I first became a trainer, I had a lot of clients right out the gates. I loved it. And then I went to become a fitness manager. So within four months, I was managing trainers. And I had to learn how to not sell myself. I'm a manager, I can't train all these people. So how do I sell fitness without selling me? So this is why this is so important, because you sell the system, and then later on, if you wanna scale your business with other coaches that you train or reach more people, it's not just about you, it's about the system. And if you don't. Long term scale house. Yeah, if you don't figure this out now, the best and worst thing ever happens, which is you ignore it right now, you don't realize it's a problem, you do such a good job of selling yourself, then you reach a point of critical mass, and you're like, oh, fuck, I'm still not to that big financial goal I wanted to get to, but I am completely booked, completely loaded, and I don't know where to go from here, because I've been selling myself this entire time. I learned this the hard way. I got to 167 clients on my own. I was doing over 30K a month as a seller. Not sleeping. No, I worked 20 hours a day, and I had no concept. But we started this with one thing, which was, do you know your offer? This is where knowing your offer becomes critical. Because when I say, do you know how it works? You better fucking have wins. You better have an offer, because if you say how it works, and you start talking about your communication, that's no longer it. It's not your process, it's not your wins, and this is where it becomes critical. It's not your metabolic priming. It's not your metabolic priming, right? So this is what you're gonna share. Got it, well, Mrs. Jones, I'm assuming everything you've tried, like you started with a diet, right? Right, well, why didn't that work? Because I gotta tell you, if you're in a calorie deficit and your body's working normally, you're supposed to lose weight. So that's kind of a problem. So if I just give you another diet, do you think you're gonna lose weight? Well, I guess not. Well, we should fix that, right? Well, what if I told you the real problem is that all the diets you've tried have led you to something called metabolic adaptation? And that the only way out of this is fixing your metabolism first, would you believe me? Well, yeah. Great, so do you think we should start with a diet or fixing your metabolism first? We should probably fix my metabolism, great. The real reason all of my clients are successful is because we don't start with a diet, we start with the metabolism. And so in phase one of the program, we're gonna create metabolic restoration for you. Now. Now that's the offer. Right, now we're in the offer, right? So if I'm not making an offer, I'm just telling you how it works. Now, do you think with a functioning metabolism, right? If we restore it, we get you to a great place. You think you could lose fat faster? Yeah. Well, do you wanna diet for a really long time? No. Great, that's why we call it fat loss acceleration. That's phase two. Because you have a prime metabolism and we can speed this process up. Because let me be honest, I don't like the diet either. And I know you don't wanna do this for a long time, right? Right, great. So we're gonna accelerate your fat loss, get you to your goals. But I asked you earlier, you said, you don't just wanna lose weight and regain it, you wanna keep it off, right? Great, has anyone ever worked with you on that? No. Well, there's a host of habits that we actually teach our clients, phase three, that allows them to keep this weight off forever, never need us or any other program again. Does that sound good? Great, what questions do you have? Yeah, yeah, excellent. Right, and so there's no sales, there's no money, there's no duration. I'm literally giving you the wins because tangibly, you as a client are like, I'm gonna fix my metabolism, I'm gonna lose weight, I'm never gonna regain it. I got everything I wanted. It was never about a process. Sales calls, like, every coach listening to this right now is like, oh my God, in my sales presentation, I talk about how we check in every week, how we send text messages, how we get on calls. You know what you do when you talk about that after they hire you? After they fucking pay. Yeah, and you know what's funny, by the way, okay, all the way back to the first point that Jason made, he did a great presentation, he knows how to sell, he knows how to pull the person into this commitment, you gotta deliver. The end. You gotta deliver. If you don't deliver, he just sounds like a slick, you know, talker. He's just fleeting. Yeah. You may sell a few. You can do that a hundred times and listen, you'll make a hundred grand. But at the end of the day, when people like, you can't sell something that the internet says you don't produce. And the internet is, it's a spotlight today, right? I mean, I'm armed with case studies of clients selling their cars and becoming a six-figure earner, or you know, people from six figures to seven figures or seven figures to multiple seven figures, like, I've got the case studies to back it up. So I'm super confident presenting that. But at that point, you're basically saying, okay, great, like, do you have any questions? No? Great. When do you want to get started? Price isn't discussed, duration, and obviously they're going to ask you price. The investment is blah, blah, blah. It's always an investment. Yeah, but you make it, it's not the most important part of this whole process. It's just, it's almost an assumption. It's just like what you, that you went back to the range, like Range Rover, like the difference of the Range Rover being 120, 130, like that. If it's somewhere that's not the deciding factor. Get me in it. Let me drive it. Let me feel it. Tell me all the cool bells and whistles. All that stuff. And then I'll be like, okay, I want it. And then we go, oh, how much is it again? And then you can break all that shit down for me. Yeah, so I mean, you know, you're one of the first people in the space that we found that gets all of this. Because what we saw for a long time were pieces. Like, oh, this is a great course that teaches you good education. Oh, here's a sales course. Oh, here's a more, but you go from beginning to end and you turn these coaches into good, effective, successful both for themselves, but also for their clients. As coaches, and so our first, I think we interviewed for the first time, how long ago was it? Two years ago. Two years ago. It took us over a year and a half of listening to coaches who worked with you, talking to trainers, talking to people for us to finally be like, all right, all right, we're gonna work with you. And by the way, you're not the first person who's approached us who said, hey, would you like to work with me to teach coaches or to answer questions? We've had that probably asked to us, I don't know, a million times. We say no almost every single time because we wanna know, are we really, is this gonna really make a good impact and is it valuable? Is it really worth it? We've also said no to doing it ourselves for so long because of our own integrity and wanting to put something out and provide tremendous value. Right. I mean, it's the number one thing that I get questioned about in my DMs is other coaches that want the help from us to scale and build their business. And we have been so focused on building our own business that I would never wanna do a disservice to somebody else and tell you like, yeah, I know how much value I can give you, but then I also know how much I would need to commit to that in order to provide the value that I would wanna provide that when you go through this process with me, you would walk away and be like, oh my God, that was worth every penny. I'm so glad I did that. Which that is what makes this partnership so beautiful is you've put so much work into that being your business that us aligning together now can provide tremendous value for. I think we've all had a core belief over our time together that really good coaches have three things dialed in. They're educated, they know how to apply their education and they know how to monetize. If you can do all three things, you can have impact, you can have income, and ultimately that's what being a really successful coach is about. I think when we put this product together, the monetization stuff is stuff that I teach all the time except to get to me to work with me at a high level, it's expensive. It's $25,000. It's not even available to work with you guys. And so when we actually sat down and we discussed this we're like, how can we deliver a high amount of value but not be the 25K guru or the program and how can we give an access point to literally everybody? Like that was our goal. We wanted to reach the average trainer. I wanted to reach the, because I was the average trainer. All of us at one point started that way and I want to reach the average person who has a passion for helping people and it's not gonna happen if, 10,000, 15, $20,000, it's just not gonna happen. That's saying there's a value in that but our goal was to reach, especially when we know that a lot of the people listening, I mean, God, I don't know how many people that we've turned on to become a personal trainer and you're making $0. So trying to get that person to commit to a $25,000 commitment, even if I know I could provide $25,000 worth of value, it's just a huge leap. You've invested in mentorship, right? And when you first got in, you invested in mentorship and the mentorship you invest in today is probably significantly more expensive. I remember when I first started, I hired a guru that we talked about off the air and it was over $800 a month. I don't have $800 a month, right? I'm actually at the time, my mother let me put it on her credit card because I had such conviction I would make it work. My mom's like, I'll pay for it, just pay me back. Dude, we don't, I mean, I can't even imagine now like brand new coaches in a competitive space asking them for $800 and being like, that's where you have to, you know, it's $800 a month to start your business is just insanity. We wanted to make it accessible and there's, oh, just, you know, put this on a, put our $25,000 fee on a credit card. Like, first of all, I don't want you in my 25K program if you're not already producing some revenue because there's way too much buildup I have to do for you. And, you know, I think that if you're willing to go broke to invest in something, like we probably need to have a different discussion on finance. So like that's, and listen, inside of business we talk about finance, but you know, I think, you know, also at this point we're almost two months in to this mentorship, right? And I think- How many people are in there right now, Jason? There's about 120-ish, I believe. So our involvement, just for people who are wondering, so just mind pumps involvement is once a week, one of us get on there and it's a topic that we'll cover. So we're talking to all 100 plus trainers. And then the second half is you get to ask us direct questions about business and training and fitness and I got questions on podcasting, I got questions on social media, whatever. And you can ask us directly. So that's our involvement. Everything else is through you, NCI, the coaching, the building the business, the whole thing. Yeah, it's, you know, the concept when we launched was there's no access to you guys outside of social media right now and there's no direct access to always get your questions answered. And we've created that outlet, which I think is super cool. I know I put myself in the shoes of an early coach. I would want to connect to the best coaches in the space and be able to ask them questions, pick their brain. And I did that except I invested, right? Like I think in the first podcast I did with you guys, I said like I hired every coach under the sun, like Hauney, Scott Able, Lane, like you name it, I probably worked with them. Cause I just wanted to pick the brain. Like I wanted to learn. And I think that we wanted to create that level of access to you guys. And conversely, we wanted to give them the foundational business things that they need. And so we also now do a bi-weekly business assessment where come on, bring your business and I'll break it down just like you're a $25,000 client. We're going to start at your offer. We're going to talk about your lead gen, your nurture. We're going to talk about your sales. We're going to talk about the lifetime value of your customers. And I'm going to give you the exact action steps to keep growing, like go out, do this, come back in two weeks and let me know how it's going and all adjust the steps. The exact way I would coach a $25,000 client. So, you know, not to mention the fact that now we've put our branding team in there and like we're getting ready to put some done for you templates out. And there's new value that's come to the group every single week because we've had new requests. And I think that this is a new thing for everybody. And we keep listening to the community. The community is super excited. I've gotten DMs. You know, you were saying off air, you've gotten tons of DMs, which has been really fun. Like it's been great to see the reception, but it also gives us areas where we can keep adding things. And as it sits now, the value definitely exceeds what we asked for. Well, that was the idea, right? So it's like, what, at 97 bucks a month is what the monthly comes out to be to have access to us all like that. And the idea for us, because we had, you know, we have big plans for this and a vision for this down the road was, I remember both of you and I, when we first were drawing this up, I said, listen, I would rather put it so damn cheap that we fucking crush it out the park as far as value in the first year. We can figure out where it should be priced in the second year. I'd rather over deliver right now while we're building this thing and figuring out what are the best things that we can be teaching this group and what are all the things that we can add on later on. That was the thing. And when I love that, that's where we all align. It's like, that's the first priority is like, and it's no different than what we're teaching with the sales thing. It's like, that's the first step of selling everybody on this is that we have a good offer and we're gonna over deliver on the value because we know that these people will be lifetime people. They come in, they take what you guys say, they're gonna be better coaches, which means they're gonna deliver a better service. It's where this whole conversation started. If they come to the conversations with me, they're gonna have an offer, right? If they continue coming, they're gonna know how to put that offer, generate leads and ultimately sell that, they're gonna have more income. And if all of the people come in and they just implement everything that's being taught at the end of the year, their coaching business will be quantum leaps ahead of where it was, right? And I always look at like, if you can make a small investment and it takes a leap forward in your business, it was worth every single penny. And I think that we set out to do that. We set out to create a platform and it's been really fun, man. I've enjoyed every minute. It's a blast and this is true. I mean, this was, mine pump had already grown. All of us were doing this full time. Everything going great. And we were traveling to gyms and flying to gyms and driving to gyms far away just to talk to trainers and help them for free. None of this was, we didn't charge anything. We did it for free ultimately because the more good fitness professionals that are out there, the healthier people get and it's the goal. That's the goal. And I know that it'll pay us back in other ways. I know that. But I want good trainers that are out there. There's not, there are good trainers out there but there's not enough. Well, we officially have announced it to our audience and drove to the URL. Doug, what's the URL for us so people can opt in? It's minepumpnci.com. So minepumpnci.com. And it's the- You can sign up right on that page I think. You can sign up. And it's the only, I mean, we put our name on it. So, and we've never done anything like this for a reason. So if you're a coach or you wanna be a coach and you wanna be really good, we're putting our heart and soul into this with one of the people that we trust the most in the space. And dude, that's like, that's an honor and to everybody that does listen to this, I come from super humble beginnings and the first time I came out here, I mean, I was like a kid in a candy store meeting these guys. And so, two years later, hopefully I've added enough value and I guess I have because now we're doing this together to now bring more value to the world. So if you're a coach, there's a power and proximity too. And showing up and being in this environment and being around these people, if you can continue to add value to the community we've created, there's a chance that you're sitting in my shoes in my chair in the next year, two years, three years. And so if you have big aspirations, there's a massive power in the proximity you create for yourself. Contagious. So I would definitely encourage you to consider that side as well. Excellent. Look, if you like our information, you'll love our free guides at mindpumpfree.com. You can also find all of us on Instagram. So Justin's at Mind Pump, but Justin, I'm at Mind Pump Sal, Adam's at Mind Pump, Adam, Jason, where can they find you? I'm at Jason Phillips is nutrition. There you go. Thanks.