 conference will now be recorded. Oh wait, who's missing? Two, three, four. We're all here, I think. Oh and Tim, I'm sorry. Yeah, okay. So we're all here. So I would like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, November 2nd, 2020, and welcome everyone to once again an electronic meeting. First item of action really is the agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in order of agenda items? Tom? Just one other business item. I'd love to spend just a couple of minutes recognizing a question raised at the last meeting about open meeting law concern. It was covered in the other paper so I'd appreciate it if we could just raise that topic to adequately address it based on some residents that have reached out to me. Okay so we'd add that to at the end of the agenda. Okay. Any other items to add or delete or change? Okay seeing none we'll move on to are there any comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda? And I don't see anyone showing their face or raising their hands so we'll move on to see, I'm sorry, announcements and the city manager's report. So you know, Macon, do you have any announcements? I do not. Okay. Tim? Yeah we had a mentioned advisory board meeting last week I think it is and you know things that improved in the previous quarter. Of course the day that we got the report was a crash day for the market. So I don't have a good summary to give you right away. I'll save that for the next meeting and tell you what all the facts are unless Tom wants to do that but if it can wait I'll wait till next time. Okay unless Tom Hubbard do you want to share something or we can wait I mean is anyone in a hot sweat who knows what the market will do after tomorrow? I think Tim's right we'll have Patrick Blizzard with us at the next meeting he'll be given the annual update to the council anyway so probably probably be a better point than to discuss. Okay great let's see Dave Coffin Okay Tom Jitman. Nothing to report. Okay I attended the airport commission meeting and I'll tell you about that when we get to our committee assignment item six. I did also attend a press conference in Winooski that was announcing an agreement between Vermont gas systems and the city of Burlington to provide the $500,000 10% match for the noise mitigation program. It's not a done deal it's not a signed agreement because I get I think they have to go before the regulatory board to get the okay because half a million dollars is a lot of money but they were very excited. One of our residents Neil Lunderville as you know is the new CEO and he was and as you know our energy committee has been very interested in seeing if that collaboration around you know weatherization and energy savings and energy what is it called efficiency Vermont could really work with the owners of homes that are undergoing sound mitigation processes and stuff so it was an announcement of that although it isn't absolutely firmed up. Tim? Wasn't there some question the last time we discussed this about whether the FAA would accept something like that as the source of the income a source of the 10% and my understanding is they're willing to do that great so that that's very helpful and I think it helps Vermont gas systems and efficiency Vermont and all that kind of all those efforts that they support so we'll see what happens and see if the public service it's not the public service board has a new name right Public Utility Commission okay you know agrees to the use of that money so and then what else did I do I went to the report okay I think oh and I did I met with or not over the phone but over the computer with Jesse Foren the editor of the other paper and I will I sent out an email and asked who wanted to write the first counselor's corner no one took me up on that offer so I'm doing it which is fine I just wanted to give people an opportunity so that's due tomorrow so I will write that and I also Tim since you're working the polls I thought it would be fun to do to you and I collaborate on a different article that talks about our experience at the polls Tuesday and sort of our perspective as you know all the work that we've done and what it felt like and I don't know maybe Tom you want to contribute just as a candidate it was a weird season for sure but that would be a another article not the counselor corner so I will assign them in the next it's the first week I think it's due tomorrow so I think it goes in the next newspaper and she wanted to assure me that they were happy to re-institute that and I was glad we they were doing that and it seems that we'll move forward in a positive way with the other paper and I think just looking at the last the most recent edition it really was full of more like the the one before COVID that had a lot more articles and things that were of direct interest to South Burlington as well as highlighting some of our residents and Jesse did also say that she thought that every town should have a newsletter like we've developed and that that's a wonderful way to include and connect with the public about the different activities of the city in ways that newspaper doesn't necessarily do because unless it's a story they really don't want to just report on stuff that happens so I think we've met a really sweet spot with I mean I thought the last edition of the our newsletter was excellent you really filled in a lot of different articles with great connections to the all the information on the website so I think that's our our residents will be well informed going forward that's all I have yes Tim I took the opportunity to respond directly to a person that posted on Front Forge forum I don't remember which forum was who was really disgruntled about receiving the other paper wanted to stop you know the delivery of this paper so I just emailed them and very gently said you know here's some very short history about what's been going on you know there's a lot of junk mail that you get that it goes in the recycle bucket but you know take a second look at the other paper and things are going to change is you know the pandemic ebbs and flows the economy improves or whatever you know things are going to change for the better I think so just you know don't don't be so dismissive good thanks thank heavens we have recycling vins too well I mean you don't have to stop the government or wrap your fish in it or whatever okay um city managers report and just a couple of things Helen I know you all have a busy week this week but I reminded that the steering committee will meet next Monday night the ninth at 7 p.m. we're certainly wishing Donna and all the city clerk staff a good day for tomorrow they've been working really hard they've done a great job with the election with voting appreciate all the help from the members of the council to assist in her office and prepare for the counting the votes and and everything that you're doing all of the bca and all of the other folks who who've assisted in any ways taken a lot of hands this year and we appreciate the help when Kevin's back next week we'll begin meeting with department managers to talk about next year's capital improvement plan so those meetings are being set up for next week now and lastly you just want to pass along some news from the recreation and parks department holly shares that the halloween glow walk that was held over on market street last weekend brought in over 400 people a lot of them folks living right within the area and others living throughout the city but they had a great night it was held near the goose pond and there was plenty of room there for people to socially distance and keep keep apart and I'm hoping that we'll begin to see a host of new and creative community engagement programs over there in the future for all seasons so congratulations to holly and her group but a very successful event over there on market street last weekend yeah no I saw the little tent and I also walked by and peeked in the windows of the library and they're starting to sheet rock so it's really starting to look like a an identifiable building outside of course and then inside so that's pretty exciting too okay all right thank you tom the consent agenda we have five items disbursements an application for the design and construction of airport drive infiltration system to approve a grant application approve a stormwater improvement agreement with grandview and south ridge home owners association approve the stormwater systems maintenance agreement doing a lot with stormwater with south village and lastly approve and authorize the city manager to execute a quick claim easement deed on queen city park and green mountain drive right of ways for state route seven traffic signal replacement project so I would entertain a motion for approval a move to Megan a moved approval is there a second second and david seconded is there any discussion kim we can't hear you kim sorry I just want to compliment justin and his team for adjusting some traffic signal timings on where williston road hits dorset because of some feedback from a resident and that resident replied back in front porch room I think that he's very pleased with the change in the in the increase in the productivity of the flow of traffic going through that intersection where the interstate comes into next to the cbs I believe justin is that where it was I'll take the credit I have no idea what the feedback was sometimes things are just in motion so I don't know I don't know what the precipitating event is that you're referring to in terms of this feedback or resident but we recently have brought some repairs to our dorset street signals and one of one of those repaired repairs allowed us to cut a lot of dead time out of the particular phase but it was that way due to a mechanical failure that's great that you made the repair I mean he's he's very happy and we all are because it you know increases the efficiency of the intersection thank you go ahead with the vote please are there any other um any other discussion if you're ready for the vote um I'll call the roll Megan Emory hi Kim Barrett hi Tom Chittenden hi David Kaufman hi and the chair votes I so we approve the consent agenda as presented five zero next your reports from counselors on committee assignments uh Tim your committee assignment you're going to wait on that um I have a little news from the um airport commission and did anyone else have a meeting the transit or anything okay so I just thought it was um important to note that the cares act grant that this that the airport received for 8.7 million dollars is really um making the difference for them to to allow them to meet their um expenditures um they have drawn down I think of a million or two million no a million um 500 and um 53 000 um to cover July and August um and you know without that they would be in really bad shape the revenue changes for them I mean it's really down um are due to parking fees which is no surprise because very few people are flying so no one is parking there nor people um that's an 841 000 cut or reduce reduction in revenues the car rental concessions is another 576 000 um and then there's landing fees and so um thankfully they got that cares money and it can be carried over into the next fiscal year to continue to pay down um or pay their expenses I mean at the same time they're trying to write to run a very tight budget and have been cutting where appropriate and possible um year to date expenses and of course there on a the federal um schedule is approximately 125 000 lower than the prior the previous year um and they continue to go forward with different um projects and receive money from the FAA to do different things um and then of course you all know we they owe the FAA money back for the seven Kirby cod cottages properties and I don't have that number I'm sorry I thought it was on this sheet and I didn't write it down because I thought it was on this handout but um that's kind of where they are and you know they're working hard to play keep the place clean and haven't lost any um airlines which is good um and have had a ton of sorry that's my dogs Ted must be coming home um of of corporate jets flying in just a really huge number so a lot of people are flying in here but just on um private jets there's any other questions that I can get answered okay thank you so let's move on to item seven um consider and possibly approve a resolution establishing the zoning administrator fee schedule for ticketing of land development regulation violations and is Paul Connor going to talk about that oh yeah there you are I'm sorry hey Ellen um yes certainly so uh if you recall earlier this fall uh Andrew Baldick and I had come in uh to talk with you about uh some additional tools in the toolbox um you know having reflected on some of the events from this summer and the first of those tools that we were uh going to recommend was to to take advantage of state statute that allows us to um have a second option for enforcement of our zoning regulations so the the main method that we use is through the environmental court um uh which is a process that is slow but it is results in um in in actual physical changes so let's say somebody built a building that was 30 feet too tall the court has the authority under the normal procedures to um require that the um that the that the building come into compliance the ticketing authority is a whole different tool it brings it much more like a speeding ticket or a sign ordinance ticket or one of those ones where um it's used for typically more operational type things things that happen uh that's a violation in the moment um and it allows us to issue a ticket right away there are limitations on it it's um it can only be up to $800 a day it's a ticket it's not a injunctive relief on the on the activity um but we're uh we think that this would be a good additional tool to have in the toolbox from time to time for these kinds of operational things okay are there is there any questions or comments discussion tim yeah so these these um penalties didn't exist before or they weren't well codified um so state statute automatically allows for a um regulation to be ticketed but we did not there was no fee schedule adopted by the council previously and so we didn't feel that it was uh appropriate to use it without having a resolution establishing a formal fee schedule from you all so we've not used it in the past and how do these fees compare to the say burlington or uh wenuski uh the statutes for any type of ticketing set a maximum of $800 per day um what the draft here does is it reaches up to $800 by the fifth offense which is consistent with how we do all of our ordinances um it it sort of increases the severity rather than just having the first time that somebody's out there saying $800 so i'm not sure how it compares with other municipalities but it does go up to the maximum allowed under state law and it's consistent with the ramping that we do with our other various tickets but do you know if other towns or cities do have these penalties uh yes i couldn't tell you exactly who but i have spoken with others who um who have used them in the past um different municipalities have different things in the regulations so some towns have their sign regulations inside of their zoning that's the most common use of it we have it as a separate ordinance um if you'd like i'm happy to poll all of our neighbors and and find out who does it i yeah can you give us a hypothetical situation where you would want to have levied these these penalties sure so they're typically they're things as i said that are more operational in nature so let me give you a couple of examples of things that we've seen in recent years um with the advent of led lights it's a lot easier to have um a parking lots lighting or let's say a gas stations lighting be much higher than it's supposed to be basically you know you set up programming and it doubles its lighting because the led lights are just the manufacturer builds it a certain amount and then they dial it back to meet our regulations so that could be the kind of thing where you know for whatever reason lighting is too high rather than going through a lengthy process through the environmental court that could be something where we'd issue a warning and then we could issue a ticket and for each day that they keep the lights on it's a ticket um that would be a faster and more effective way of enforcing it rather than saying you've got seven days to cure the violation then we'll take you to ecourt and then five months later we'll be in front of the ecourt um to possibly have them determine that you should turn the lights down um that's one example um various noise things could be another one um that's uh that's also part of um phase two of what we want to work with you on of separating out the um nuisance ordinance and the land development regulations a little bit more clearly um a third one could be some of the operational elements in the form based code um we have certain standards that say that uh there need to be um um publicly accessible doors for example um that could theoretically be used in that manner because it's much more of you know somebody choosing to lock or unlock um those are the kinds of things that could fall in there it could also be you know conceivably um you know somebody who's not keeping a site um during construction meeting the the erosion control standards not putting up the fencing all these kinds of things that could be solved quickly at their end what does the administrative officer have to tell anybody else in the city that they're thinking about living these penalties before they do it like do they have to consult with you and or the city manager they the um administrative officer is authorized by the city council to be a code enforcement officer so just like a police officer is is uh authorized to do that that's part of your annual authorizations in march to do that as a practical matter um we work on you know uh we work collaboratively in the planning zoning department and you know we don't we're not rash in the way that we take our actions thank you any other questions i did note that it also looks like our other um fees where if if you um warn them and they say and they change it right away then it's only the the fee is or they say that they're not gonna um take it to court um the fee is is reduced and i know we have that with several others so correct that's consistent and that makes sense to me are you um so you would like us to approve this um if you're ready we would love for you to do that right are you ready or do you want to have more information to him from other uh communities i'm good okay so i would um entertain a motion to approve the resolution establishing the zoning administrator fee schedule for ticketing of land development regulation violations so moved okay that's tom and is there a second second that's megan um are you ready for the vote okay i'll call the roll uh tom chitenden hi uh david kaufman comes up you don't have your voice on okay uh tim barrett hi uh megan emory hi and the chair votes i so that passes um five zero so moving on to item eight consider and possibly approve a proclamation supporting small business saturday in south burlington 2020 this was something that i had received from the small business saturday organization i guess um and it sounded like it made sense to me it's um i mean you've all had a chance to read it it basically is really encouraging um or we're stating our encouragement and support for the uh small business saturday um as a special day to do your um holiday shopping um so that's what it is and and i added in the the part or x tom to add in the part about um the pandemic um as being a real driver for this that's the second to less um whereas so tom you and your hand up do you have a question so i'm sorry i was gonna suggest that i fully support this it's great i love that we're doing this uh just the last therefore i was wondering why we just pinned down november 28 2020 and not just establishing the saturday after thanksgiving as the in the city of south burlington as the small business saturday um well i think it's a national organization and i think they you know may have a different date um at different weeks i i don't know i was just using their template and trying to be a team player with all these communities around the country tim so uh i support this too i'm just wondering why we wouldn't want to proclaim it as south burlington small business saturday because i don't want people going to other towns and cities to shop i want them just to come to south burlington okay does that seem okay that seems perfect that was the intent um where would you put that um right where it says on the last now therefore that we do hereby proclaim that date as south burlington small business saturday then you get sbs the bold print where it says small business saturday could south burlington yeah okay is everyone like that that'd be a great logo too with sbsb sat or something like that you know i mean right okay is that amenable to everyone i tom has a thumbs up i do yeah megan did you want to make a comment no no okay all right so that's a nice amendment so tim do you want to um amend did wait did i take a no i didn't ask for a motion yet did i so why don't you move it with that additional language tim sure i'll move that we um adopt the resolution to proclaim uh november 28th as south burlington small business saturday with the small change on the now therefore that small business saturday be actually called south burlington small business saturday okay second okay is there any further discussion okay all in favor um thumbs up this is and i'm not one of those things that's too important i mean too controversial and i think it is very important okay great thank you let's move on to the next item we are plugging through this aren't we um is it's not 7 30 so we can't do the interim by laws so let's move on to item 10 that's a that's a posted hearing too um so we could go to item 11 is that okay august and september financials so tom thanks helen and if you want to to leave some time before 7 30 um jessica could give the status of the uh izy um to you all before uh the hearing at 7 30 um so if you wanted to plan accordingly that could fit in how much time does jessica need uh jessica jessica does not need a full half hour i don't think so it's 15 minutes yeah i think i was actually told 15 minutes so i think okay good all right so um 7 15 tom will um will will um cut you off and or hopefully you'll finish okay thank you i think that will be done before that um so the first quarter report um for july august september we're 25 percent of the way through the year we're currently at 17 percent with our expenditures in the general fund and about 29 percent uh with our revenues that we've collected to date we have a number of annual assessments that have been paid out most of the initial bonded debt uh partial payments are due did he freeze for you yeah he froze for me yeah here let me let me tell him he froze oh that's right because he can't hear us i'm just about froze this morning on my walk it was cold it's that time of the year but it's going to be in the 60s by Thursday right through the weekend to Monday but unfortunately all the candidates are going to be in pretty cold weather tomorrow oh bundle up thomas oh yeah yeah i'm used to it campaigning in city council weather early march march number four well at least he went off the air so he knows all right you should we move on to something else okay jessica are you all okay to move forward with your presentation while we tom tries to get a sound back um sure okay thank you um paul is that okay with you i want to make sure you're available in case i misspeak here um great um so uh the plan commission has been um working diligently onward with our tasks for um the planned unit development updates as well as the associated items of the open space and environmental protection standards updates and rewriting the subdivision and master plan language um so we had had a joint meeting with you last February and only had one meeting before everything shut down for the virus um we did take five months off um you know kind of hoping that we'd be able to come back to meet in person with people um when we resumed in august um we dove right back in where we had left off um we've had eight meetings since then dedicated to these items um so at this point we've worked through um the draft language for the natural resources and it's very similar to the general overview that we had given you back in february um we have moved forward with the forested habitat blocks um we've made some changes to them to in spots where we had some um balancing just to balance kind of competing city goals like in the case where maybe there was something on the official map that conflicted kind of things like that um we've also kind of moved forward with the other natural resources that we had talked about at um that last meeting and we're also uh considering adding some additional protections for the 500-year floodplain um which currently is not included um our regulations include the 100 year floodplain so we're considering expanding kind of our stream buffer regulations to include those areas so we don't have that draft language yet but we've kind of talked through our goals for those areas um we've been using a really great mapping tool that was put together with our staff as well as the cc rpc staff and it's been really helpful to be able to kind of look at um kind of how all these different areas layer together um and can give us the big picture of the city and um you know I think in general staff has done a really amazing job of keeping us on track and providing us with information we need um as well as um keeping us up to date with technology um we used a really or they created a really great story map tool for us to use to evaluate some of these resources which was really helpful um so I know that you seemed interested specifically in the natural resources and if you are interested we could kind of come back and give a more detailed presentation on where we've landed with all of those if it would be helpful kind of before we have the whole package of everything so you know I think that that's up to you if you wanted a more detailed kind of dive in on some of these details um as for some of the other items on the development side um we have in hand and reviewed draft language for the subdivision and master plan portions of the ldr's um and we've given feedback to staff on maybe a few adjustments on those um with the pud the planned unit development language um we've reviewed elements um and outlines on the pud items and we're expecting draft language from the consultant in the next few meetings so um we would be able to at that point really kind of compile everything together and have one kind of larger draft of everything all in one spot so that's what we're excited about um we have made a few big decisions about related to the planned unit developments um beyond where we had been the last time we met and one of those things that I thought I would just point out is that we're looking at doing some changes to how um we call it density at this point like number of units per acre might be um calculated um and kind of moving away from that number of unit approach to a building based approach so within a planned unit development kind of specifying um all the different elements that need to be there and the types of buildings and then you know the person um the landowner would be able to kind of put all of those buildings in that remaining space so it's it's really more about the context and the scale and the layout rather than number of units and this is something we've talked about quite a bit about um kind of scale like one one very large building isn't really equivalent to one small building or home um so this is an approach that kind of starts to get at that um that scale and we'll be able to get more into like exactly what that looks like and how it affects development and what it looks like um with the beauties but I wanted to at least kind of throw that out there that it is um kind of a different approach rather than number of units being kind of the the deciding factor. Is it rate related like to impervious surface square furniture or something like that so there's different things where um the types of streets and the size of blocks and and some other parameters like size and and height of buildings and types of buildings are all um kind of specified within menus of choices and then based on all of those individual elements um basically you're creating a neighborhood based on those building blocks within the ranges that were were kind of setting so you know if you wound up with smaller units in a building of the same size you know it's just not unit based it's more about like what it looks like and how it lays out hmm and we'll have some examples to be able to show you and yeah no I'm anxious or I'd be curious to see what that looks like yeah and maybe Paul can add a little more I know I might have made that confused and no I'm sorry I don't want to get into the weeds this is really a general conversation. I just thought I just highlighted because I think it's a really exciting tool um that really starts to look at some of our housing challenges that exist in the city um what's called the missing middle you know we're a classic community where for the most parts we've seen single families and two families and then we've seen 30 flexes and we have seen like many cities all around the country very little in between what what the what a building based approach does is that it assigns an area associated with each home that's sort of scalable to the size and to the type of home so row homes necessarily have you know less um less yard space than single family homes today there's a disincentive to do anything like that because you can still only put four homes per acre in a in a given neighborhood and so if you got your context right which is the key part of this then you might be able to put a duplex or a triplex or a small fourplex that looks like a single family home into a piece of land that isn't taking up the same amount of space as historically for single family homes would have so it starts to focus more on how does it fit in with what's supposed to be around it and how does it relate and sort of transition to what's been built in the past without sort of punishing um neighborhoods that think about building either smaller homes or something a little bit more compact because right now as we know the land value is often the driving factor and so if it makes no difference larger homes can have can can make up that return whereas if maybe you could get a couple of smaller ones in that same piece of land and have it be context meet the context then you might be able to get more housing in the same area um and hit some some more um some better price points so that's that's the thinking there okay um so our we've you know we've been talking about our timeline and I know that it's quite different than when we spoke last February um so we're expecting to have kind of our full draft um and the initial kind of planning commission comments through like probably the end of this year at this point I mean we're just coming into November now so by the end of the calendar year and then you know it might take us a little while to kind of answer our internal questions and synthesize um and then some time in the winter to really make sure we're getting the public input um and answering those public questions um so I mean I think we're looking at winter um to have it in front of you and I don't know exactly if that's February or you know plus or minus a month or something like that but that is our goal um and with the pieces that we have done and what we're expecting and the kind of the feedback on what we've given the consultant back on the PUD piece um I think we're feeling pretty good about that okay and does that um once you have that sort of final draft then you have your two public hearings make whatever changes if you wish and then it comes to the council for public hearing so we uh the planning commission has one public hearing just one okay and we are allowed to make changes kind of after that um and then it comes to you well you've been hearing from the public all along anyway we have and you know we've been thinking about how to really do this efficiently and transparently and I know in the past sometimes the public isn't clear like which version they should be commenting on so one of the things we've kicked around is um when we have kind of everything all together is to maybe warn that for public hearing so it's very clear that this is the whole thing this is what everyone's supposed to be commenting on you know just to kind of set in stone to all the comments that would be coming in at that point would be kind of in response to that kind of public hearing full version um so that was one thing that we had talked about we hadn't made a finding we're not there yet so we haven't made a final okay that might be a good approach so um it would be kind of getting all that that feedback on the same version there okay I was just trying to think about it in terms of a timeline yeah you know so so at the latest perhaps um sometime in February February you may have a final draft that the public could comment on yeah you know it could be sooner than that you know I think the commission felt like you know maybe January felt like maybe we didn't want to commit to that but it felt like in that time frame okay and then that takes like two or three weeks to do that right to warn it hear it discuss it respond with your final draft to then get sent to us yeah right so we might might not see it if you need till February 10th or something then we wouldn't necessarily have a be able to have a hearing until the end of February the beginning of March is that I mean I don't at this point there's no sense in like rushing it rushing it because it's a really big piece of um work yeah so I think we we want to make sure that our commissioners feel comfortable with how things are fitting together as a whole before pushing it out to the public like um so you know if that means some extra meetings and we get into February or something you know we want to make sure we're not putting out something that we haven't reviewed ourselves I suppose definitely yeah and I think the council will want time to read through it and understand it as well I would just just add that the the commission has received a lot of big picture feedback it's been very helpful from the public we I know the commissioners and myself really appreciate it there's some pretty substantial changes throughout the various chapters in here and so the the the variable item that we can't quite predict is how much on the detail side of comments we may get um from people who are users and um hopefully we've sewed things up um pretty well for that but if there's a a significant amount of hopefully really good feedback on the detail items then the commission will have to go go through that and staff will have to go through that so that's a little bit of a variable piece um depending on on how it um you know what we get as feedback but in terms of your process and then then I'll sort of Megan I'm sorry to monopolize this in terms of your process when you get down to those small issues like this is what the language is going to say and and how it works in in your planning commission meeting anyone who is um affected by that can speak then before it's more final correct I mean they are so it's not like the final they're going to rewrite it because they've never seen this language absolutely I hope it is true that we have been getting feedback all along but we have also been clear that we're not at a kind of a full compiled version so I know that there are members of the public who have been kind of paying attention but kind of holding their comments for when they see how it fits together um and that that has come up a few times because they you know I know there's there's many people waiting for the version like compiled version to provide comments Megan and you're going to hear the cycle circle of life here I'm sorry my daughter refuses to practice before these meetings um I just wanted to know when the consultant was going to be back in touch with perhaps you know proposed language or when would that come before you so that the you know all that would be public was that at the next meeting did I understand that correctly that it was sure Megan um so this last meeting the planning commission received the full subdivision and and master plan language so that's available for public review the consultant mid month of this month is to deliver the planned unit development language to staff obviously that means we need to do a little bit of back and forth but the hope would be that the commission's first meeting in December is when they're seeing it and that would obviously then also make it available to the public at that time so when will it be before the planning commission sorry uh so the the planned unit development chapter our hope would be the first meeting in December for the planning commission um because we uh staff is to receive it later this month and then obviously there's a little bit of back and forth there before we can send it out but that that's our hope um and expectation at this point and then after you receive that feedback what were the next steps I just I'm trying to do the timeline in my head too sure so there's about six or seven different pieces of this puzzle that all are coming together so there's new subdivision standards there's new natural resources standards there's master plan there's planned unit developments and then as Jessica said that then needs to tie into the updated um street dimensions the updated language um around uh open space types and then a lot of cleanup in the LDRs getting rid of old stuff which we've been doing all along but we need to cross our T's and dot our I's on um in the past planned unit development has been used in a lot of different ways and so there's places all over the regulations where it says you must be a PUD in order to do this thing because it was sort of used as a tool for a waiver before so we've been going through and picking those out one by one the commission hasn't seen all of that that's sort of the last piece for them because it's largely housekeeping but that's another piece of the puzzles that they need to see and see the whole thing together okay tom did you have your hand up oh okay Megan are you done I guess so I just I I do I do hope that it can be you know before the public for a public hearing in January I think it it would do the public you know a service also for us to be able to to move forward with these long-awaited regulations so I I mean I I know you've been added a long long time and I just I encourage you to you know at the same time that you think about the public process think also of the timeliness of it I think that's part of the calculation so here we have an interim zoning hearing tonight on you know a proposal that you know will be considering with regard to you know forthcoming regulations so it just it seems that it would serve that public well too to have those regulations in place Tom I think I heard in your comments Jessica separate from the public warning the official required thing an offer or a mention of possibly coming back to the council if it's convenient for you or Paul to go over the force blocks I personally would love to get educated on that before it gets more finalized so I certainly would be very interested in that and if it doesn't need to be the full council if there's ways that you would encourage me to get educated on that topic I'm I had interest yeah I mean I would be happy to do that individually or as a group at one of your meetings because you know it is it is one piece that we've moved kind of along ahead of the other items and it is new so it might be nice for you to see it before it's kind of within the bigger package uh-huh would you be able to do that at our next meeting in November or is that pushing it too far I don't know how far along you are with this with the force block I think so yeah well or the first meeting in December I mean if you if you really have one of those I don't have my calendar right here so but yeah one I'm happy to do that okay all right any other questions or call or do you have anything else to add Jessica oh I guess one I guess one other thing that we did talk about at our last meeting that I wanted to point out I know at some point maybe in February there was a question if maybe we could adopt part of it ahead of some of the other pieces and we did kind of as a group consider that just to you know close the conversation and and felt like we really want to have this as one package it's so intertwined you know to break off piece of it might be just so much extra work so that's okay well our first meeting in December I believe is the seven so that might be the time to talk about the force block right before we cut down our Christmas trees and I am available so okay okay thank you so let's see we have three minutes so I don't think Tom can get through too much in three minutes although you could try I could probably finish that up I apologize my my screen went out for the second time here so I'm gonna just keep my voice going in my picture off for a minute I think I left off at taxes and we're waiting the local options tax allotment from the state the end of next week the property taxes so far through the end of September have come in just under 40 percent which is excellent much of the interfund transfers have not yet been made so those are not reflected in the financials to date the city clerk continues to bring in a pretty good income in recording fees up to $75,000 already so Donna's office continues to bring in that revenue as well with the vital records that they they continue to to do as well really all in all it's what we expected it's where we thought we'd be at this point this is what we plan for we're continuing to move forward with caution with certain unknowns yet to be determined and the enterprise funds both remain in good shape we completed the data collection for the FY20 audit last week the auditors were actually here on Thursday and Friday in person we finished up with them so they'll be preparing that audit that will probably be delivered after the first of the year late January or February meeting and lastly we'll have the October financials out for the next meeting which will catch us up to date on the financial reporting so far for this year so good thank you any questions for Tom good okay thank you well then we'll move on to item nine which is the public hearing and a possible council action on the amendment and extension of the bylaws and is Amanda here I don't know if she's going to join us I don't see her she will be joining if she's not on yet I don't be on shortly Helen okay all right well I guess I need a motion to open the public hearing on the bylaw yes I moved by Megan is there a second second second by Tim so we are now in an open hearing or a public hearing to consider extending the bylaws time period oh yeah I'm sorry all those in favor signify by a thumbs up I guess okay that's five in favor so we are in and have a public hearing on interim bylaws is Amanda here Helen if you wanted you could start with the public hearing part of it you can get any feedback or if you'd like I can give you a brief background on what what your what the council's authority is but I think you got that also last month so uh huh yeah I don't notice we need that unless anyone would like him to go over it again okay so why don't we open this up to the public is there anyone in the public who would like to comment on extending the bylaws the um interim bylaw or interim zoning bylaw is there anyone you just turn either turn your picture on or turn your um mic on okay public must be supportive huh um all right can we talk about what the the dates might be do we need to set a um or do we just extend it for a year with the understanding that we would end it um as soon as we can so Amanda's recommendation would be that you uh the the statutes allowed to be in existence for one supplemental year that you do so and then you can repeal at any time that that's her recommendation okay um but as as you did with your prior one you have the authority to do shorter time periods as well all ready Tom I'm supportive of a three month extension but I I don't think I vote to support to extend for the full year I feel like what I we just heard from Jessica is that they're coming to closure and I think the three months are are meaningful to all those involved so I I'm a yes on a three month extension but I I would not vote to support a full year extension so it's three months extension would take it to December January February 13th is that right yes okay we've been extending by quarters as we go along I I've seen a reason to deviate from that that behavior I'm okay with that I mean it's there the only thing I'll say is three months with the holiday season right smack in the middle of it might be might be a challenge um maybe not we can go three months and then we can extend again if we can let's just go three months we've been David no one's going anywhere that's very true for the holiday are we ready for a motion on that Helen so just to be clear would this be to extend for up to one additional year in three month increments as you had done previously okay yeah that probably makes sense does that meet your need Tom that's okay so we would mirror the current language essentially yes so is that amenable do we have a motion to amend or I'll make that motion I'll second it and then so it's made in second is there any further discussion by the public uh so just just one procedure that you need to close the hearing first and then vote on the action okay but I wanted Amanda's here does she want to speak if there's anybody in the public who wants to speak they need to speak before we close the public hearing Amanda do you have did you hear what we just did what the amendment is to extend it for a year um in three month up to a year in three month increments so the first extension would we'd have to deal with it I guess February 2nd but it would it would end February I mean yeah February 13th if we didn't extend it further so I'm sorry I was having trouble logging so that's why the so in terms of it's my I wasn't necessarily not expecting that the council would want to to put it suddenly keep the pressure on but I'm just from a logistical standpoint the three month increments they don't end up being really three month increments just because there's a three to four week time requirement between when essentially the city council decides oh we we're going to warn a hearing for to extend the interim bylaws then that has to be published in you know a newspaper depending on when it falls but it usually ends up being at least a week and excuse me at least two and a half weeks before and so that that's the only potential thing to keep in mind just that uh it if it's possible I suppose to consider um a slightly different time pattern so instead of three months maybe four months or um even similar somewhat similar to the first time the council adopted this uh two years ago you know an initial say six month period and then uh you know maybe a three or form a provision for a three or four month extension uh beyond that so Tom and then too so Amanda you weren't on when Jessica was presenting but uh to make the case that they're feeling like they're coming to closure but I think you raised a good point that three months and even with what they said does seem like maybe a month short and so I like using the same language that we used before just to save you time with the three month increments but if four months makes sense and that's just what changing one little number uh that's not quarters but that also seems reasonable to me I'm just not amenable or supportive of extending for the whole year to make Tom what about six months does this planning commission need it because I mean I didn't hear that Paul if from Jessica or you it seems like you're coming to that end and I feel like if we give six months Parkinson's law people's work expands as much time as you allocate to it uh so I I'm inclined for the three month to four months but I can bite at six well we could if we did do it six months and they were completed and we had our public hearings and everything was adopted in four and a half months then and we could end interim zoning early correct that's correct I mean we always have that um that's always an option that's correct the only thing I'll the only thing I'll I'll say is that if we go six months it's likely to go six months not wanting to add stress to anybody's lives these days but um it seemed from listening to Jessica that uh that four months might just do the job and so I think I'd I think I'd prefer to change as Tom said that one little number let's go four months and we can always do it again but uh I agree with Tom if we go six months we're probably gonna go six months four months doesn't doesn't really put pressure on it just says we really want to get this done as soon as possible and and Jessica indicated that could be done so so I think let's let's go for the optimum and try for four months that's my take well what what do you say to that Jessica my February didn't include the council sessions as well and you know February doesn't feel like we have it in front of you ready for public hearing in February I said four four months we've been mid-march wouldn't it be mid-february that'd be three november 13th december january february march is four months yeah we can we're gonna try I don't think we're gonna expand to answer that question we're not gonna expand our work to fill your time you give us I mean we did will four months work for you do you think she's hesitating I do go back to what Amanda said I mean I I'm fine with that if you're uncomfortable with it Jessica I'm not wanting to create undue stress at these times I'm okay with with six months I suppose Megan and then we're here wants to speak Megan yeah I mean ideally I would like to have it done now it's it's not this was the primary reason why we decided to go into interim zoning and I would really like these regulations done I really would like them to be done before a whole new cycle you know begins next next year but I I don't like playing you know so close to time and when I hear Jessica hesitating I would rather say let's just get six months and and you know let's hope it's done by then can we make it a hard six months select six months this is done we're ending interim zoning and it's all going to be wrapped up by then well we can always revote if we need to right but you're asking whether we want to try to make a hard stop I understand that try to impress that upon them so as to you know motivate so that the six months is not going to be extended again but yeah six months is fine and then that's one more extension let's go with that Leo would like to speak thank you thank you as a citizen my concern is if you wait until six months there's possibly going to be another problem that's going to surface another committee that's not finished the report whatever the case may be then that'll mean probably waiting another six months fairness to the public and the landowners especially in the southeast quadrant is I think four months would probably be adequate if Jessica and her team fail to comply that time then focus on extending it but if you go six months and there's a reason to extend it again you might as well say you're going to go all full year or beyond so I just think four months would be more inadequate thank you we can't go beyond a year right I do want to you know I understand the concern about you know if the time is available then you know it takes that long but I the council can so let's just say that you know you adopt you know limited in duration to six months from the day to become effective but then you know allow for subsequent three month periods but let's say that before the six months that things go remarkably smoothly and and if there are if there are amendments that the council warns for a hearing then depending on on how that all plays out it is possible for the council to coordinate the repeal of the interim bylaws with the introduction of proposed permanent bylaws so so that doesn't take another separate hearing we could make it a whole package it would take another public hearing to repeal but much like this it there's uh there's the decision to to do that and then publish a warning but then holding the public hearing like you are now and taking comment but um then you could take action to repeal it after you close the hearing on that during that meeting but it just you know it just depends on um what happens with proposed permanent bylaws because there's also the possibility you want to be sure that the the council is on on board with all the proposed amendments before perhaps you repeal them but I'm saying that that is an option instead of waiting whenever the the time period is that you decide well I guess my feeling is I would just as soon go the six months and and I think Jessica has heard and I think the planning commission is anxious to get this monkey off their back um they I mean they had a meeting every week in the last month it seems so they are putting their foot to the metal and um I think they understand that as as soon as it's done and we have our hearing and approve whatever it is then we'll we'll end interim zoning I don't think any of us want to keep dragging it on and throw in some more stuff to work on I just think it's important to acknowledge uh Leonardo my uncle's concerns there are many landowners that really want this to be resolved so I'm I'm right now inclined to do the six months because we're in a pandemic I I didn't support going into interim zoning to begin with we're in it and we had this pandemic while we're in it so it seems like six months makes sense but please I hope we wrap it up before then if not before these landowners have rights and we need to recognize those and we need to give some clarity and get out of interim zoning I don't disagree with anything he said I hope to get it done by then as well so um what's up emotion so I'll move that we come out of the public hearing second okay all in favor thumbs up hi hi all right so I will amend my motion to six months with three month increments up to one year wait so we're doing it we're extending for six months or extending for we're extending it for six months with the option to have um two three month extensions if or a one month extension I mean we could do anything we want right in terms of the timing but that would make no sense with the notices in the paper to have one month extensions right we'd be all right no but I'm it but if you know there are we wouldn't the city council wouldn't have to extend it say for the full three month period if it you know you were right there or perhaps you extend it for the three month period but then repeal it so there okay so that's the motion did I hear a second second that's been moved and seconded is there any further discussion and let me call the roll Dave Kaufman hi Tim Barrett hi Tom Chittenden hi Megan Emery hi and the chair votes aye so we have extended interim zoning for six months with the option of two additional three month periods unanimously all right thank you very much so now we have another public hearing um and this is let me get the language so this is item um 10 and this is an interim zoning application iz 20 oh two of eastern development corporation for development on this 8.66 lot at 600 spear street so I need a motion to is this a public hearing no Helen it is but you're already in the public hearing so you're just resuming it from two weeks ago okay oh all right no action is needed to reopen it all right so we are now let's see is Mr. Von Tupacovic still yes there's Frank um we had some additional questions you were going to answer I think sure um my understanding oh go ahead Frank no Paul thank you I I um we were made our presentation on the 19th to the city council the next day on the 20th uh we also brought the concept to the development review board we had scheduled a sketch plan meeting with the board and they were also very supportive and interested in our concept but what we're hoping to hear tonight is staff's comments Paul's comments on on where he thinks we're at with this because if possible we'd very much like to move forward okay Paul do you have any comments sure so um I was uh what was related to me from the last uh hearing and meeting was the two uh the council wanted to get a little bit more of a flavor as to which of the PUD types this might fit under and what are some of the qualities of you know to the extent that it is matching up so this would be a small version of of of the PUD type of traditional neighborhood a TND traditional neighborhood development um typically what the planning commission is looking at for those would be the scale of 10 acres in order to be a full-sized one but they have also been um giving us guidance on doing what's uh sort of a a a best fit version on smaller pieces of land so this would be an example of a smaller piece of land um the characteristics in a traditional neighborhood is that it is focused principally on being residential uh there is often some component of the neighborhood that would be non-residential that doesn't necessarily mean commercial uh but it would be non-residential and in this case there's an immersion an existing commercial building that uh Mr. Von Turkovich is looking to retain um I mentioned and Jessica mentioned earlier about the new subdivision regulations they really focus on um creating a clear uh street pattern um that has walkably walkable scaled neighborhoods and so what you see here is uh two north-south streets uh an east-west street that start to form sort of a new version of a block uh and so that's pretty consistent with that the um subdivision rules and the PUD rules would um encourage strongly encourage buildings to be facing onto the streets which is what's happening here and uh the other key component is to have um a uh a sort of a focal point to a neighborhood a a open space uh what we're calling civic space that becomes an area where neighbors get to know one another better um we have them in some of our neighborhoods historically we haven't had them in in some of the more recent ones um but here uh Mr. Von Turkovich has has laid out it doesn't show entirely in this drawing but the square that's sort of right in the middle there is proposed as a civic space which really becomes the um it's accessible to all the people who live in all the units uh there's sidewalks and so um that that's meeting that objective there and then um the other remaining piece of the puzzle that the planning commission is working on is exactly um how to get um what the building forms would be uh it is very likely that something that is a triplex uh in row homes would be absolutely one of them there is in this property also an existing single family home so there's a little bit of diversity there so at the scale of the city council's review I would say that this is um Mr. Von Turkovich and his staff and his uh and his team have worked pretty closely with us to have this um get pretty close to where the where the commission is with the with the traditional neighborhood can I ask at our last meeting we did uh I can't remember I think it was Tim asked about one of those little blinking lights to cross spear street and um and you said well yes if that was um indicated or something that you would support that and I'm I'm just wondering if we could include that in part of or if you would include that in part of the plan um just because I think it really enhances the walk walk ability and addresses some of the um things you're trying to accomplish and that would be great because then it would be part of your development I mean I don't know if to have I guess the um public works okay you probably do but um they have to okay a whole lot of stuff that you're building in here right no that would be great uh we would enthusiastically support permission to to do that that would be great that would be good okay are there any other comments or questions from council members that Frank can address Tim hi um could you talk about the the energy aspect of the development again um I know there was reference to some uh solar and net zero and I was wondering if you intended to exceed the active 50 stretch code and if so how you would do that and whether you're going to heat and cool with with heat pumps or natural gas right uh no that's a great topic for us um we have the opportunity on this site to put in a substantial enough solar to probably bring the entire project to a net zero status the um you're familiar by looking at the photos the steel building that we'd like to retain that is a relatively low roof pitch and if the ridge runs north and south we think we can probably probably get solar on both sides of that roof and that would generate a substantial amount of energy right there certainly enough for whatever's going to go on inside the building once we talk to the city about what those uses might be but the homes themselves we would plan on installing enough solar to um to meet the power requirements for all the buildings and um yes indeed we would we would use air-to-air heat pumps which we have started to do on some of our smaller buildings install uh air-to-air heat pumps and they're great I think some of you folks probably have them and and don't have neighbors that do they're they're really terrific they're um super energy efficient they're quiet they're reliable they're relatively affordable today I think that is what we're going to see a lot more of in the future so we would definitely make that move and in terms of compliance with the act 250 uh stretch requirements we would meet those requirements and I think we haven't really gotten into the architectural design phase yet so that we can pinpoint specifics but we would we plan to keep this project um and would like it to operate as low cost as possible how would you um so I mean do you have an idea about how your your solar system would work with GMP would it be net metered and you know the development property management company would be this you know the owner of that solar system and then and then you would I mean I don't know what's possible today and what limits there are with with companies and residential communities like this with solar are there any limitations to what you can do uh there are limitations uh for sort of a merchant solar plant uh a lot of the um possibilities for doing that have changed over the past few years that the programs are still there but they're they're limited uh our ability to produce and use onsite solar is still practically unlimited we can do a net meter uh project to feed into our own um our own buildings basically I mean it really goes into the grid but it comes back to us uh as as a direct um production credit and um I think it would be um really remarkable to be able to do that uh I'm real excited about the idea of having it be probably totally net zero on an electric basis we have natural gas onsite I'm not sure that we'll need to bring it in because we'd like to use um small uh uh instantaneous hot water heaters that would be located near the uh the bathrooms and the kitchens that would also save on a project this size just avoiding the human mistake that we all make of just running the water till it gets hot um having a feature like that built into a new building can save thousands and thousands of gallons a year in water and in the future that's going to be a big a big deal so we're looking at ideas like that to make it energy efficient beyond just electric and gas thank you any uh are there any other questions or comments I I would just say I really liked the idea of in the large building when you and I understand nothing's firm because you really have to think through but I thought the concept of having um a workplace for someone a small office or however they whatever they call them you know it's sort of like a joint thing and um would I mean I guess it it would be driven by who you rent to but it also might be a wonderful marketing aspect but that appealed to me to use that in a kind of creative way so that people really can work um live near where they work and not have to necessarily use one of the bedrooms as an office I mean they have this option obviously for a rental piece but it still would be you know for those new and up and coming entrepreneurs I mean they won't live here forever but this would be a great place to get started and how cool to be promoting that we agree it's a it's a an opportunity that none of us saw coming six months ago but here it is and repurposing that building so that it's uh that so that really contributes to this little neighborhood we're planning on building which would be a great opportunity great thing for us to do I would agree any other questions or comments so what we need to do is we could close the hearing close the hearing and then take 45 days to make a decision okay or less yeah or fewer uh huh so are you ready to close the meeting I move that we close this hearing hearing okay second seconded by Tom so all in any further discussion okay all in favor signify by you know you can do a thumbs up I guess okay that's five zero so the um hearing is closed and I guess we have do you want to have a discussion now or think about it some more I'm ready now to vote on it okay um Tim you could give staff direction we don't have a written this right you don't have it right yeah yeah um but if you wanted to give us broad direction we'd be happy to prepare one for you to consider um for your next meeting do you want that direction now I'm happy to take it if you're if you're all right want to give it well personally I would you know I would give broad direction to you in an affirmative for this project from a city council perspective during inter-amazoning okay does everybody agree with that yeah I do I would love to have the crosswalk part is part incorporated and and Frank said he would so yeah Megan yeah I'm I'm I'm the same wavelength yeah I appreciate um the design and the thoughtfulness um you know the approach to net zero uh it does seem walkable the scale seems just about right it achieves like a village um context in that parcel of land is enough buffering for the interstate and as well as vegetation to you know keep the noise down from there and you know it's it's basically it's a rural area it really is you know with uvm's land on every side and um I think that would be a desirable place to live for some people so we need housing we need housing like that right I think it's very creative and you've identified some other goals of the city that you incorporated and I hope developers continue to think in this way I would just like to ask paul what the traditional neighborhood neighborhood development would allow with regard to the the remainder of the parcel to the east there um well uh there is a little bit more space to the east that um there could conceivably um you know a a neighborhood like this could probably form another block sort of like the first one uh fairly shortly after that and correct me if I'm wrong uh Frank but there's a class two wetland that comes in pretty quickly after that and then there's the interstate uh buffer so there is there is a little bit more space that in traditional neighborhood could have been could conceivably have been done but I believe that this is essentially maximizing the current density allowance that's correct that's great um but Megan we'll we will keep our eye on the um the regulations as they evolve and as paul said the project does have the potential to expand further if that's uh if that proves to be possible uh with with future regulations and it looks like some of the preliminary work is being done to allow that to happen it's regard to the parking the roads I would I would think underground as well that would all be connectable easily yes and then remind me looking at this picture I mean at some point you're going to bump into the solar array are you not yes uh that is to be determined as to when and how that will go in but um um it would be to the east of the project and uh along in between the project in the interstate so we'll see how that fits in okay one last question yes will there be bicycle racks outside or will it be mostly for storage for people inside between the buildings or in the foyers or right uh great question uh we had there are a few things that have evolved since we actually talked to you on the 19th one idea to answer your question about bike racks each building would have the um what we call the breezeway between the two halves of the building to get to the backyards there would be dedicated bike racks um inside that covered space and those would be for the residents of the buildings for the four apartments that are in those buildings so and that would be the buildings will be built on slabs on concrete slabs on frost walls so the bike storage area would be on these concrete blockways between the buildings and we would envision putting installing um galvanized bike rack kind of posts so you can bring your two bikes in for your apartment change you know lock them up to keep them safe and we would also have dedicated charging outlets there for e-bikes so people that were getting into that which i think is great so you could charge your e-bike there underneath your your unit and that electricity would be provided by the by the project it wouldn't be it wouldn't be connected each apartment it would just be there for the tenants to use so those are two features that would keep your bike inside out of the rain out of the snow and um and we probably wouldn't need more than just a few visitor bike racks in the few places just to let people to come in and park their own bikes that's good to hear that there would be uh you know a galvanized steel anchor in a cement pad because um you know reading front porch form for the last year it seems like um there have been at least three or four bikes stolen from car ports at certain condo complexes and i feel so bad because people you know they lock them up to something in the car porter they thought who's going to go in a car port and then somebody steals their bike so um but you brought up a good point about charging and i don't want to drag this out but um do you have plans for charging stations for automobiles in that that complex uh what we haven't shown anything on the plan yet but definitely we would provide a automobile charging stations that is just that's here already we would definitely like that to be a feature of the project so that's certainly a feature that will be in the project and one other point that i your question prompted me i want to remember to tell you this that in the steel building where we intend to build some storage areas for tenants um and a shop space that you could use for working on your bike or your ski equipment or whatever you might want to use it for uh today uh we all know about the problem with uh amazon and fedex deliveries and how big of a pain that can be when you're not home and stuff gets left out uh if you provide uh an enclosed uh safe space the the the delivery companies amazon and fedex will actually pay to install these locker systems that are accessible to the tenants and they're again they're safe they're enclosed they're easy to service and it keeps the packages off the street so a lot of uses for that steel building that we're seeing now is being possible we're gonna have to make it bigger the future city street extension to the north of the project what is that well uh the one of the um uh one of the features that we discussed with the staff was that the project should provide for another street uh connection to the north and the south so that street that you see there megan is intended to be a dedicated city street that will allow access to the uvm parcels that are north and south of us it would just take local traffic off of spear street uh for the future it would allow people to interconnect without having to go back out on the spear i mean this is the same thing they did on link link road and also on saty lane you know it kind of like planning for the future when somebody's empty meadow could turn into another development in the future you might as well have the street you know right up to the edge of the property line and ready to go when the next one comes up right my last comment about car charging stations is that i don't know how your property management would deal with this but um i've met people that live in in rental units and they have rechargeable you know they have the evs and they complain a lot because they you know they they don't have access in some of the older developments so however the new ones go in and how many ever there are um it would be really cool if there was an agreement among the people that use them and and if the technology for that charging station like with charge point or something could organize the charging so that it was you know allocated to people over a period of time and would do things like email them and tell them to move their car when it's done when there are more cars and there are charging stations things like that i mean you don't want every every spot doesn't have to have a charger but you're probably going to have at some point more evs there than you will have chargers so like for where i work uh in our multiple plant they have that organized in that way so that you have to register in order to be able to use the charging station if you do use it then it emails you when you're done and you have to go move the car right where they start yelling at you they call you and they say move your car because somebody else wants to get in there you know but that could all change as the range of these vehicles increases and people might be charging somewhere else i don't i don't know yes no i think it is the the that is no longer just a future concept tim i really think that is today and if we build this project hopefully you know in the next year or two uh it would be a major component i wouldn't do it without that being included thank you okay so um paul do you need any more um direction okay i think i'm all set i will pro will staff will prepare a draft decision for you to consider uh in the very near future okay thank you thank you very much frank hey thank you all very much i appreciate it thank you you're welcome thank you so moving on we've done item 11 we go to 12 which is a continued discussion regarding the f y 22 budget so paul um tom are you gonna read that um i'm i'm back on uh audio here again i apologize for the video i i think um what what we're looking for i guess at this point helen as as we meet with department managers to talk about putting the f y 22 general fund budget together um um is the council um of the opinion that in terms of the capital improvement plan we should be seeking items that are essential only must have items that we're looking for for f y 22 as compared to uh items that they may need to have uh they may need to have them but not necessarily next year uh so the cip is kind of laid out as a 10-year plan so that things are are spaced in a in a way so that there's not a significant increase in any one year about more of a gradual or inconsistent um kind of increase over over the the 10 years so we we've kind of given guidance at this point for them to come to us with items that they absolutely feel they have to have i i think that makes sense um since we don't really know what's going to happen it probably isn't going to be a full-blown open autonomy um in the next fiscal year i mean hopefully toward the end of it it will be but that won't allow us to go full borehead on our cip so i think you start with the absolute minimum and then um maybe you identify if things get better this would be the next you know capital expenditure i personally i think we need to do that with the budgets as well i mean really look at a very very small increase um increase well yeah i mean well if you hold everything else the same you know health benefits will increase period you know so tom if i recall the year before i joined council in 2014 um i feel like we level funded the budget i know tom you've looked for guidance from us in these uh about this time every year for the past five years and we've given you like that upward balance of three percent i like what you what you stated and uh i personally looking at the uncertainty and all the pressures on us um i would love to see if we could shoot for a level funded budget with no increase this year but i know i might be getting ahead of myself with the statement but i think that gives you charge for what i think you were looking for by asking us about our current impressions on this set yeah so required components and nothing more anything else that can be pushed off sounds reasonable to me yeah the only problem i have tom i was on the council when we did a um zero budget and um it sounded great and then the next year we had to um bump it up i think it was five or six percent because it was really too drastic it was stuff that you just had to do and we we hadn't budgeted for that so i guess i think that's like a great goal but i think it's kind of unrealistic in terms of um a city that has you know residents who were expecting a certain level of service and items provided them i mean just health care i'm not five percent you know you're you're sort of screwed what do you what do you do do you fire some people so i'm not making a case tonight that we shoot for a level funded target um what i'm saying is many people are not getting raises this year if anything they're seeing pay cut though us doing our best to to do as their minimum as possible for next year which i think is what tom hovered's statement or question of us was i fully support that so let's do the absolute required amount of capital improvement and nothing more so as to shoot for the least possible tax increases and possibly if if it's in the cards which we haven't really seen the cards yet a level funded budget would be appealing to me other comments i i have a question about the financial warrant that we were given for this meeting for tom if this is a good time or we can wait till the next agenda item i'm good tim um can you comment on the on the four marathon health expenditures that were you know you know i know it's for the new clinic right it is just so those are the most charges they'll say they'll say july is that correct it should be july august september october okay so they're they're once uh once a month charges and then we'll get paid by the partners so there's a revenue component to that as well so that whole okay hopefully we pay out and then we get the reimbursement from the other partners um so that we're still paying our share and the cost seemed to go up by month is there a reason for that well then it went down it went up and then the last month i think is a little bit lower as i recall yeah the cost that stays constant is the lease the cost that will vary a little bit is the services provided within that month so that may go up or down uh on on any given month and we just added the uh the counseling service to that as well so so do we go ahead go ahead make it did you say that other participants that they're billed directly or do we get billed directly and other participants pay us let's just we haven't yet so we pay the cost up front and then we have a third party that actually does the billing on our behalf and then we get the revenue back to offset the majority of that cost so that um we we still pay our share but it's not the full cost that you're seeing there but the only thing we tell us is the service well we'll have an accounting from time to time just like we do for the community as we talk about some of the other agenda items coming up uh we're going to have core lee come in and give you kind of an overview of the clinic and how that's working maybe even if not the next meeting the first one in just in december either way but tom are you satisfied so far with with how it's working and if it is a valuable thing i'd say very satisfied tim we've we've gotten really good comments uh from employees uh we've gotten great usage and just addling adding the uh the counseling component right now has been very well received so we are very pleased and we hope that this is going to be reflected in our in our healthcare costs that's the goal is is the counseling part in addition to what they could get from the employee assistance plan or or are those just two i mean they're two separate things but the question is could you decrease your eap costs if if they had a separate charge for a counseling segment and you could just not not buy that anymore or do you have to take the whole package with the eap we we could it might decrease it a little bit the eap package for the year with us is a total of six thousand so they they offer so many other services in addition to that that it's well worth uh the six grand for that i agree i agree okay good thank you good question any other questions for tom does that sound um reasonable to really go for absolute minimum on or absolutely essential projects for the cip and then um you know really be very very very careful with the budget and will that include um not filling well you don't know yet do you because we haven't filled vacancies now so that probably will continue not filling them but those are at least built into the budget so the money the money exists um so if if it did present an opportunity to fill those you know maybe come next april we could look at that at least if the money's there and it's not needed to be used to make up for a revenue shortfall somewhere else um that that's we just that's one of the unknowns that we just got to wait and see all right this is i'll place the tires until you can see lincoln's hair i had i had a good sense that this is where the council was at so this has been helpful i appreciate it thank you okay great you always have a good sense tom thanks yeah yeah he's very sensible dollars and cents dollars and cents okay dollars and sensible right uh item 13 other business we have one item well there's already one on it upcoming agenda items but why don't we deal with tom's first and he wanted some resolution or i'm not sure what it is you want about the comments of some yeah can i just frame it real quick so it's not a warned item so i just want to put something into the public arena um so at the last meeting during public comment a resident michael donahue raised a concern about the possible open meeting violation and then we said we would address it in later item agenda seven it was brought to my attention that we never actually did and there was an article in the other paper that week um what did happen and this is what i wanted to put into the public domain is an email from kevin doran was sent to the council the day after and kevin doran stated that the claim that we had violated open meeting law through the use of email is wrong and he stated that there is an exemption in the law for administrative actions so he's informing us uh so that's basically said under the administrative actions portions of the law so that's the advice we've been that we have been given from the council or sorry from our city manager to the council regarding the open meetings law claim so this is not a warned item but i just wanted to use other business to put that into the public dialogue okay thank you um additional upcoming items for council meetings we want to hear from jessica with an update on the forest blocks um what are some other items that you would like presented i think you may hear from alan strong on the uh on the south burlington land trusts current thinking for funding purchases of identified lands that should be conserved or preserved he was going to contact you helen and ask for i believe ask for a discussion on a council agenda coming up okay good to know any other items that people have um thought about or think we should um add to the agenda stuff you know sort of thumbs up yes tom so something we did uh we haven't done in the last two years that i recall maybe we did and i'm just getting old but um i would certainly uh depending on the outcome tomorrow regardless of the outcome tomorrow we had legislative breakfast um in sessions in november december so that we could have the council as well as the school board weigh in on the people going down to montpelier i think scheduling a zoom with all of the legislators including the state senators on matters sometime in december that's been useful in the past and i know i certainly would appreciate it having south burlington kevin doran tom hovered our leaders uh impress upon our legislators what they want to see accomplished in the coming biennium okay good enough i think that always makes sense tim uh maybe we can save this for the steering committee meeting but does city council want to have a discussion amongst ourselves and the public of course about um the police department and their school resource officers and whether we want to fund those positions for those officers to go into the schools i know the school is having a discussion now about whether they want to have sros or not but i mean it's a two-way street the school can think about whether they want them but the city council can think about whether they want to make them available at all um maybe we can wait for the the steering committee on that but i think it's a discussion worth having especially from the city side you know city councils and and they're directive to the police department because i think we're the ones that you know if we hold the purse strings we could say we're not going to fund sRO anymore you know and i think it's just something we should talk about i'm not even sure we fund it but we have a set number of employees to do right all the work so if this is a segment of their work then they you know can't do something else so that i think that's the conversation because i'm pretty short tom um hubbard correct me if i'm wrong but i think that the school pays for the sros don't they that's a completely funded by the city oh it oh it is oh yes i'm sorry i thought the school did okay well that's i mean that's certainly a good steering committee um my battery is going to um is that certainly a steering committee topic do other counselors agree with me megan you think that's a good idea to have the discussion uh yeah i i think that everything is on the table when we're talking about um um potentially you know deficits coming ahead you know we have to really prioritize and that's something that uh you know both both the school and and we have something you know to say about it so yeah i think it's worthy of discussion i have to say helen i i i i can't think of things that i'm up we've had we've had a real heavy schedule over the past few years well i'm drawing the blank too i mean there there are always things that can be done so you know that's that's for sure we do have some things already set for the agenda so for um the meeting coming up on the 16th we have the leases coming forward from common roots the recreation park committee has had a chance to review those and i think even the dog park committee has weighed in on that um we have amanda and paul coming back to talk about sewer capacity uh we have green mountain transit annual report the winnicki belly park district annual report uh paul's going to fill you in on his conversation with cc rpc uh about climate change and justin's going to come in and talk about the short and long term plans for the bridge over kimball avenue as well as an update on the dog park what about the uh traffic signals on dorset street when are we going to get to that and uh i'll have him i'll add that to the list while he's here tim sorry tom go ahead it sounds like we have plenty to talk about so i yeah it sounds we're a lot of issues so i'm thinking about a new bridge i'll be eager to know about the kimball avenue bridge because it's already breaking up right it is i think yeah it was like two weeks i wrote right my bike over it and it was just i mean one lane is just sort of like starting to just but i mean that what do you expect it's metal plates they vibrate and the asphalt just comes right off so and they're doing all sorts of construction and technology park yeah oh yeah more trucks than you've ever imagined you know it's more trucks than normal so of course it's um just wait till fedex pick you know opens that place up exactly well hopefully the new bridge will be done okay so it sounds like we probably don't need any more items dad to the agenda but if people have something you can always let me know or bring it up um under other business for our consideration david yeah i think it speaks pretty well of the work we've done that we're at a point where we're not feeling tremendous pressure right now we've gotten a lot done the city center project that took that took many many meetings and a lot a lot of discussion and hecky he's gonna open this spring i think that's awesome so i think i think we've done an awful lot um that probably being the most visible and uh we've made good stuff happen so we don't have to have a jam packed stressful schedule every every month you know no you know tonight we're just about done and it's 8 30 that's good inner time yeah one last thing for for agenda item is if we can we get a small update from uh uh snider braverman on on what's planned next for city center in terms of garden street completion and the connector over to um mitis drive and other new buildings and what their schedules are like right i wouldn't do that at all tim i can tell you that today we issued an approval for the latest building uh which is immediately adjacent to the champlain housing trust closer towards al's french fries so on the same side of garden street a 40 unit building uh largely affordable housing in there nice great but it's not cht not cht not not to my knowledge i we we're looking at the project as as um as a project so that's great yeah so if there's further update or anyone else who owns any of the land and there's wants to do something we love to hear all right is there any other business to come before us okay motion to adjourn salute and seconded and all in favor i well i mean we're not done it seems moving along i hope everyone is managing their full-time employment along with this i don't know how you do it because i can hardly do it and i don't have a job so i like to be busy obviously okay thank you