 And besides, I'm not going to be the only presenter here. So let me just share my screen. Hope you see my screen. We are basically, if you have some feedback or some questions, for me, it's the best if you use basically the chat. Because I'm not quite sure what happened basically with my audio settings. It looks that way, actually, that in Hungary it's like 40 degrees at the moment. So it might affected my laptop, unfortunately, a little bit. So perhaps in the meantime, I will try to speak a little bit with my audio settings. But nevertheless, I think it's going to be OK. I mean, at least you can hear me. So you can chat me so I can answer questions. So I hope it's going to be working. David, thanks a lot for your help. So basically, we are live streamed on YouTube. And then, again, I'm not sure if my audio perfectly works. So anything working or not working just drop me something basically on chat. So that's the best way if we can communicate somehow. Anyway, so basically, this is Hyperledger Budapest. This is a special event, actually, a little bit. We try to set up one special meetup, basically, on the topic of CBDC and DLT combination. So basically, CBDC is the central urban digital currency. And then we're going to investigate a little bit in the direction of if CBDC can be realized with the distributed digital technology. And besides, you're not just going to have technical presentations, but we will have two less technical and a little bit more economical presentations based on different CBDC properties and economical impacts. It's, again, it's just a meetup. So feel free anytime to ask me again or ask any of the presenters. I guess, again, for me, you can ask in chat because I have some difficulties, unfortunately. So I think instead of speaking much, I would like just to introduce our first presenter, Adam. Adam is a product owner at OTP Bank. And he's a CBDC researcher as well. And as far as I know, he leads basically a team of researchers and engineers as well in the direction of CBDC research and, well, hopefully, slowly implementation as well. So basically, let me just try to stop my screen share. And basically, Adam, the floor is yours. So let me just take a look if you can take over the session and then continue the presentation. All right. Thanks. All right. It seems like I have the permission to share my screen. So you should be able to see my screen now, hopefully. So hello and good afternoon, everyone. My name is Adam Redkesh. I'm an IT product owner at the OTP Bank. I work with a senior developer team and we build distributed core banking systems like the instant payment system in Hungary. For more than a year, I've started to engage in the work of researching the design and the implementation best practices of CBDCs, mostly wholesale CBDCs, specializing in cross-border interbank settlement. And I believe that's why I'm here today because today's topic is the future of cross-border interbank payments, the wholesale CBDCs. So let's dive into it if I can switch to the next slide. OK. So today's agenda goes this way. First, I'm going to give you a quick overview about CBDCs in general. Then I will show you the current ongoing wholesale CBDC projects in the world. We will see the reasons behind the sudden interest in wholesale CBDC development. And after that, I'll answer the question. If these CBDC developments really worth it. So let's take a look at CBDCs in general. At the moment, the public can hold money issued by the central bank in the form of banknotes, but only banks and certain other financial institutions can hold electronic central bank money in the form of central bank reserves, of course. Alongside these conventional means of payment, we are living in the world of ever-growing cryptocurrencies for a decade or so. And the CBDC aims to bring in the best of both worlds, the convenience and the security of digital forms like cryptocurrencies and the regulated and reserve bagged money circulation of the traditional banking system. Needless to say, but the particular central bank or the other competent monetary authority of the country will be solely reliable for its CBDC operations. Although there is no exact definition of central bank digital currencies, one can say that CBDC is a secure digital instrument, a store of value, and an official unit of account. There are two types of CBDCs distinguished by their availability, the broadly available retail CBDCs used and held by households and businesses to make payments and basically store value and wholesale CBDCs used by financial institutions. This one could be the next, the new unit of interbank and security settlement. And that's what we will be talking about in the next minutes. I believe the best way to interpret where CBDCs exactly stand in the world of different money forms is the money flower taxonomy, as you can see here. It has four categories or attributes. Is the money widely accessible is the first one. Is it digital? Is it issued by a central bank? And is the access token-based or account-based? We can find cash and bank deposits on the left, the usual assets that we use most in our lives, or just cash if you're in Germany. Cryptocurrencies are also on the table at the bottom of the figure. And now we arrive to the central bank reserves in the upper middle part of the figure. I'd like to draw your attention to this one because it is issued by a central bank. It is digital, so technically we should call it a CBDC, but we won't. Central bank reserves represent the status quo, the account-based money. These are units of domestic interbank settlement existing in siloed RTGS real-time gross settlement systems. And they are totally incapable of executing cross-border payments. So finally, as you can see, there are three CBDC categories on the figure, from left to right. Central bank digital currency, the first one, it is an account-based central bank money. How should I put it? Imagine that tomorrow you wake up and walk in a central bank local branch to open an account instead of in a commercial bank. The money that you'd have in that account is this CBDC. The People's Bank of China is likely to use this form, but Daniel will talk about it later. Central bank digital tokens, the retail ones, is the next. It is broadly accessible, but unlike the previous one, the tokenized retail CBDC's access is granted through CBDC wallets. Therefore, central banks don't have the pressure to open local branches, recruit clerks, and I don't know, expand their operations. The CBDC units stored on those wallets are like the digital representation of physical cash. The Bahamas $10 project uses this form of CBDC. And last but not least, hosted CBDC tokens. That's today's topic. It is differentiated in access from the previous one. Commercial banks and financial intermediaries are eligible to hold these CBDC tokens to execute domestic cross-border payments and security settlement on a payment versus payment delivery basis. And why is all the fuss around CBDCs? Check this map out. As you can see from the east to west, a lot of countries are actively developing wholesale CBDC proof of concepts and also initiating pilot projects. Most notably, there are four big wholesale CBDC projects taking place right now. Project Stella between the European Central Bank and the Bank of Japan. Project Jasper Ubin between the Bank of Canada and the Monetary Authority of Singapore. It is based on interlinking distinct CBDC systems using hash time-locked contracts. Project ABER between the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia is a joint CBDC system with a common synthetic currency backed to the US dollar. And last, Project internal lionrock between the Bank of Thailand and the Hong Kong Monetary Authority. A common CBDC payment corridor was established using coordinates in this one. These bilateral projects serve the same purpose, to test the limits of DOT technology and to build an exceedingly efficient cross-border payment system. So why are those projects really necessary? As you may know, currently international money transfers are handled by correspondent banks. You initiate a transaction at your local bank and wait for the money and the miracle to arrive to its destination. During that process, multiple commercial banks handle your transaction. And why is it a problem? First of all, the lack of transparency. They don't provide real-time data of the transaction. So once your money is out of your home country's jurisdiction, you don't know where exactly it is in the world. And the most annoying thing is, in my opinion, that there are no preliminary calculations of the final transaction fee. So you'll be charged with a random correspondent banking fee afterwards. Moreover, different monetary jurisdictions have their own real-time gross settlement systems, which means those systems typically have different operating hours, which means limited availability. For example, if you initiate a transaction on, let's say, on Thursday that arrives to the target country on late Friday, then you'll have to wait for the domestic transaction settlement in the target country till Monday when the local RTGS system is open again for settlement, also limited interoperability. These RTGS systems were built around 20 years ago with those times technical capabilities. They use different transaction message standards and protocols, so they are not really great in working together. The idea of connecting RTGS systems to make cross-border settlement better would leave a lot to be desired, in my opinion. Costly correspondent banking system. Like I mentioned, that transparency issues all correspondent banks charge the international transactions with their correspondence service fees to cover the cost of their presence in a foreign country and to make some profit, but that goes without saying, which is OK. But if you accumulate the multiple bank fees, when multiple intermediary banks are involved, a good deal of money is to be expected. And last but not least, usage of legacy systems. Most core banking systems are outdated. Banks need to switch to new ones. And compatibility with CVDC systems requires the usage of systems built with competitive technology and built to last, which is easier said than done. Let's be honest. These core systems change projects usually requires years to finish. But of course, the parallel maintenance of legacy and new generation systems comes with high operational expenditures. So these are the main challenges of current cross-border payment systems that needs to be resolved. Let's see how also CVDC projects perform. All pilot projects operate with lower operational expenditures than the correspondent banks. So is the CVDC the answer to these pain points? I believe that they are, because as you can see by Jasper Eben and Abur Project, they can provide real-time transaction status and preliminary fee calculation. So it is much better to know beforehand how much the transaction will cost and where is my money in the world. All pilot projects can work 24-7 with high availability unlike the current systems. All pilot projects operate with lower operational expenditures, like I said, and interoperability is a cornerstone of CVDC development. Whether it is an interlingid solution, multiple CVDC or a synthetic CVDC, the key is to make the country's CVDC systems work together and allow others to easily join to them. On the other hand, there are implementation aspects that must be taken into consideration when designing a CVDC. Not every economic area needs a CVDC, like the European Union. Target to the RTGS system of the European Central Bank serves the eurozone, I think, perfectly. You can make euro payments to another European country within four hours for the price of a simple domestic transaction. The benefits of a horse CVDC system for payments settlement would be marginal, really. And choosing proper technologies. There are three main DRT payment market infrastructure firms in the world that the central banks previously examined. All of them have their own constraints and benefits, and not even one of them is perfect for the local horse CVDC pilots. So we have a lot to work on. As far as I'm aware, building a joint horse CVDC system is as much of a political question as a payment market infrastructure efficiency question. The government's full political support is needed behind these projects to deliver the expected results. But then we'll talk about it in the next session. So just to summarize what we've been talking about. Current cross-border payment services have significant pain points that the new generation CVDC system should answer. Horse CVDCs could be certainly better with lower maintenance costs, more settlement opportunities, real-time transaction tracking, and transparent operation. And horse CVDCs could open the door to new economic areas like the One Belt, One Road Initiative. So all in all, thank you for your attention. And now I'll pass the word to Daniel if you can hear me. If not. Yeah, thank you, Adam. So do we have questions now or maybe return to the Q&A session in the end? Okay, so let's use the other one. So I share my screen and thank you very much, Adam. Yeah, just a sec. Yeah, here are some, thanks for the great presentation. So in the meantime, actually my microphone still doesn't work but I can hear you guys on YouTube. So I would just ask actually like two more minutes if there's questions for this presentation, perhaps. And then after that I would propose to continue. Can we post questions? Nothing writing too? Sorry, Daniel. Yes, I'm sorry. So could you repeat it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we post questions early too? That was my question. I would have one question with respect. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I can hear you. Okay, thank you, great. Hi all. I'm Imre Kocheish from the University of Technology and Economics. It was a very nice presentation. What broke me a bit was that we saw the choice of technologies that has an issue with WCVDCs and all we saw there were distributed ledger technologies. Does the banking world equate WCVDCs with DLTs or is there still some design room or uncertain? So to simplify, one can create a wholesale CVDC system in a centralized way too. Is that off the table or not completely? Oh, I'm sorry. And then we'll answer the question. I'm Daniel. Okay. Thank you for the question. Yes, of course, not centralized ledgers and account-based access form are not off the table. Of course, it's just the central banks in the last one or two years initiated these pilot projects to experiment with distributed ledger technology. But that should not mean that they've chosen this technology stack solely. But what we know for sure that the project documentations and the project publications are about using the technology from different aspects for different business use cases and none of them were built on centralized ledger technology. It could work, of course. It could be very scalable. It could be proven to be the best solution. But now most central banks try to build up a new payment market infrastructure on DLT technology. And that's what these projects were about. Thanks. I'm personally researching the retail side but just wanted to ask this with respect to the wholesale part. Thanks. And do you have any questions related to wholesale CBDC systems? So, awesome. If there's no more question, I mean, we're gonna have, of course, basically a longer discussion around at the end of the presentation than at the end of the free presentations. But if there's no more questions, I would like to introduce our next speaker, Daniel. He's head of distribution at Portfolio Financial and again a CBDC researcher and enthusiast. So, Daniel, basically the floor is yours for your presentation. Okay, thank you, Daniel. So, thanks for having me today. It's a pleasure being here. So, I share my screen again. And yeah, here it is. Hopefully you can see the screen. Yeah, so, Adam had great thoughts about wholesale CBDC and I will refer to many of them in my presentation. So, yeah, I started analyzing CBDCs from a global macroeconomic perspective. And it is because I come from an investment background. And yeah, we managed investment funds but I can see huge technological transformation going through the central bank digital currencies. And now this impact, this impact is the financial markets through cryptocurrencies and most notably through Bitcoin. But I can see more tectonic shifts in finance, in investment and also in geopolitics. And that is why I think central bank digital currencies of utmost importance in this field. So, my presentation is based on my most recent publication which is sent to central bank tenders. And I hope it will be public soon but I will share some, I will share the major thoughts from the paper with you. And I hope you will be free for conversation and we are very open for further discussion as well. So, let's jump into it. So, quarter in the US dollar sharing global trade. Maybe this sounds strange at first but CBDCs have the potential to transform not just global payment as Adam demonstrated to you but also trade and from trade it is able to transform monetary politics, monetary policies and other fields of finances. So, since the dollar is the most dominant currency in payment, in forex reserves and in forex trade, CBDCs through payment and trade could replace its dominance status with local currencies and that is why it is a huge topic. And secondly, about the title. So, digital renminbi gains popularity by media most recently during the springtime. So, you could read from financial times, from political and from major political and economic size that the Chinese digital renminbi is the biggest threat to the dominance of the US dollar. And many headlines were written about it. So, I went to demonstrate in my paper and in the presentation that China is just a major driver against the entrenched system of euro dollars but not the renminbi itself is the biggest challenge against the euro dollar but the Chinese CBDC system is the biggest challenge against the current status quo of reserve currencies. So, that is one, that is a second point of the presentation. And third one is that you can see the subtitle that we should be aware that there are many, many global CBDC projects underway. Both retail and wholesale as Adam showed it to you in the previous presentation. Yeah, so every country which is researching or piloting CBDCs or went live with the CBDC are very, very careful. But we shouldn't ignore the fact that these central and digital currency projects could be interoperable one time with each other. And as Adam said, it has many, many economic benefits but at the end of the day, it's much like a political decision at first. And the decision makers of each country could have political perspectives on top of improving the cross-border interbank payment system. So, that is why central and digital currency opens many, many new universities. In the field of finance and macroeconomies. So, let's start, continue with the next slide. So, I mentioned the Chinese digital currency. And we'll start from the purpose of China that it is intended to internationalize the Chinese remedy. And for this, they established an initiative which is called the bad and road initiative or one bad, one road project as Adam said previously. And maybe you've heard about this project but if you haven't, just start from the purpose and maybe you've heard about this project but if you haven't, just imagine an umbrella with the Chinese established. And under this umbrella, every economic and technology projects are thrown under and the main aim of the bad and road initiatives is to initiate the trade corporations and integrating the global trade in a more effective way. So, that is what we are about. But we arise a huge topic and it has many, many English. One angle is the remedy versus the dollar angle. So, that we can see the fight between the Chinese remedy and the US dollar. I analyzed that since the 2008 financial crisis, China tried to internationalize the remedy in many, many different ways. They established the swap lines with half of the world. They provided almost as many loans as the World Bank to the emerging markets. And the Chinese remedy was taken up to the IMF's special drawing rights basket. So, the Chinese had many attempts in case of internationalizing the remedy but as you can see in this table, they were less successful to you these days because the share of the remedy in forex trade, in official forex reserves or in global payments is just marginal to recent days. And the Chinese and China experienced that despite the size of their huge economy, the remedy is share in global finances is still very, very limited. So, they asked about themselves that cannot join a club. No, that's the answer was. So, they said, let's establish our own club. So, that is why in 2014, they started researching their central bank digital currency with their central bank, the People's Republic of China, which is abbreviated by the PBOC. So, it all started seven years ago. And the next date, which is very remarkable, it's 2019 when the Facebook's Libra project came into light and the media was very loud with this topic. And around those times, China just made public their research and initiative. And since then, it gained a lot of popularity. And then in 2020, it was public that they started retail pilot projects in Shanghai, in four major cities like Shenzhen, Chengdu and so on. And the next target date is 2022 in the winter times, which is the winter Olympic Games in Beijing. And as you may know, their intention is to get ready with the retail Chinese CBDC and not just resident people, but also tourists and business travelers from foreign countries will be able to use the Chinese CBDC in China. And yeah, the future dates will contain many exciting episodes, in my opinion. For example, in cross-border retail and in cross-border wholesale CBDC as well. So that's the story from the Chinese perspective. And China was, we can say, the first country or first major country, which was researching CBDCs. And their research project started with a political motive. And the first political motive was to control their domestic financial money supply. Because as you may see in this chart, there are about 800 million people from the 1.3 billion people in China who use mobile phone for payment in China. And this 800 million people is covered by two private companies, Alimbaba and Tencent, with their mobile applications. And the value of mobile payments is around $50 trillion. So I hardly can say any comparable things to it, but it's a huge value. And maybe it's a surprise, but this numbered dwarf is the US mobile payment market. It's more than 10,000 times the US, the USC's mobile payment industry. So it's a huge share. And China's first purpose was to control the domestic financial money supply. The second purpose was to become independent or less dependent on the US dollar, which caused a deeper recession to them during the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis. So this domestic and international purpose drove China in this past to establish a retail and the cross-border CBBC for them. And it can be used under the Batten Road Initiative for internationalizing the revenue. Okay, but how does geo-politics and central bank digital currencies connect with each other? As Adam evidenced to you, also CBBCs could make cross-border payments more effective, cheaper, quicker, more transparent, and so on. It's one thing, but we should be aware that central bank digital currencies could provide a dependent field, a dependent corridor for making payments and executing trades. So that is why we should analyze the geo-political and macro-economic effect of it. So first of all, CBBCs could be, or CBBC transactions could be executed outside the SWIFT or the US-based CHEAPS system. And it's a huge counterweapon because the US or the EU use sanctions against some countries during these SWIFT and CHEAPS financial message transporting system. So the financial sanctions through the US dollar could be marginalized if countries establish their own CBBC system. And it can be fully independent from the existing financial system as well. Another point is that taking the example of China, China could invite other bad and road initiative members to join their CBBC club. So many countries could be tempted to establish a CBBC in order to get out of the control of the US or the EU surveillance system. And okay, there are many other financial privacy questions announced, but from a political or geopolitical perspective, it can be a huge temptation. In theory, it's not evidence, but with the CBBC countries could establish partially open capital accounts as well, which could mean that the countries can decide which portfolio or private money flows should enter the country of a given country. And that's a huge asset as well. So the dollar or other reserve currency denomination or invoicing of trade could change. So countries for, let's say, commodity trades or resource trades or goods trades don't need to use dollar for invoicing their trades. Because the wholesale CBBC, the local currencies are able to execute those trades without the US dollar or the Europe. So one consequence is that the rates of local currencies can increase in global trade on the expense of the US dollar. And as I said in the introduction, if payment and trade is revolutionized, then other areas of finance are affected as well. For example, the foreign exchange reserves of central banks, the forex trade, debt finance, and the whole international monetary system could go through tectonic changes if central bandaged occurrences are applied. And finally, I had some quick back of the envelope calculations and they calculated that China accounts for one force of the global trade. And the global trade is around 20 trillion dollars. And China has a trade number of 4 trillion dollars without the US trade figures. So it's about a quarter of this global trade figure. And assuming that the Chinese trades are mostly executed in dollar, if China and all the Chinese trading partners would execute trade in local CBDCs, then the share of the US dollar could rapidly fall around 20%. That's a pessimistic scenario, but it's a real scenario. And then if we assume that then the share of every foreign trade could be executed in CBDCs and the US has around 20% share in global exports, then the US dollar sharing global trade could be quartered from this 40% that I demonstrated to you in this table. So in a nutshell, CBDCs have the potential to make the current share of reserve currencies to their fractions. And that is a huge macroeconomic topic. I won't dig deep into the numbers. We talked about it in this section, but what I want to highlight is that the South Asian market or region is the leader in the development of central band digital currencies, both in the retail side and in the wholesale side as well. So to sum up seven region countries are among the top CBDC developer countries in the world. And finally, let's say the geopolitical map of CBDCs. It was elaborated by myself and with its circular motives and straight lines. I ventured to demonstrate how the wholesale remning CBDC could flood the world and establish new payment and trade relationships. And these abbreviations are very important partnerships, global partnerships in the world economy. One short side note is you may know that China is like playing Go. Go is a similar game to chess and Go is a game of encirclement. And you can see that maybe the Chinese digital currency or central band digital currency could be the Go attack against the US dollar or the euro dollar financial system. With its circular motives. So the first category includes major deals in the world economy. The first one is the regional comprehensive economic agreement. It was signed by the 15 Southeast Asian members. And the aim of this deal is to make trade more effective by eliminating or decreasing taxes in the region. And I guess that making trade more effective could be done via CBDC. So as we saw in these charts or tables it is not an accident. So we can safely assume that in a few years time trade will be executed in the Southeast Asian region. Another important partnership is this OBOR or one bad one road initiative. By now it contains 140 countries. So one day trade among these countries in the bad and road initiative could be executed by say CBDC which is driven by China. And another assumption is the commodity exports. For example, or export to from the Arabian countries to China could also be executed in horses CBDCs and not in US dollar. And it can be a strong evidence that the United Arab Emirates just recently joined the multi-CBDC bridge initiative which is a CBDC initiative by Thailand, Hong Kong, China and United Arab Emirates under the supervisory of the Bank of International settlement. So it's not just a fairy tale that commodity exports could be executed with horses CBDCs because why would the United Arab Emirates join to a Chinese project in CBDC? The other options are the TIPS and SWIFT they are payment and settlement systems as you may know but these cover the whole world so we can assume that CBDC will be interoperable to CIPS and SWIFT and it can increase its weight in the global economy. The other important ones are Union Pay which is a payment company Union Pay is present in about 180 countries in the world so we can also assume that Chinese retail CBDCs will be usable in the countries all over the world and Union Pay is present and one fun fact is that McDonald's or Starbucks take part in the retail pilot projects of China so we also can assume that if China always use retail Chinese CBDC in China then why wouldn't it all to use Chinese retail CBDC in Europe so for Chinese tourist so these are potential channels in which the Chinese digital remedy could flood the world and the one last thing is this DSR or digital silk road it's an angle of the one that one road and it's about that China is helping poor or less developed countries to establish an infrastructure or artificial intelligence platforms in order to have their surveillance activities in these less developed countries but why wouldn't these projects denominated in digital remedy or wouldn't be executed in CBDCs so these are just theories but there are strong assumptions that they could be real reality in some years time and finally so as we mentioned and Adam also highlighted to you there are many CBDC projects around the world and Adam demonstrated the wholesale ones to you wholesale projects are highlighted with blue or with purple color so in theory if these CBDC projects will connect and will be interoperable with each other it could totally transform the global financial system and to sum up my presentation I expect a new order in global payments will emerge through CBDCs their economic effects are proved and their political considerations are just underway but politics is a very strong motive behind CBDCs and the potential new adoption and connection of CBDC projects could transform the world of finance it contains many risks so the current fund flows or money flows couldn't be monitored the financial stability should be reinterpreted and the dollar weaponization would be marginalized so that is why it is very important to understand that and creating rules as soon as possible because the Pandora's box could be opened and things could get out of control but it's a very pessimistic scenario and yes I said interoperability and CBDC connections could reshape economic and political relations and as China is the leader and South East Asia contains the most advanced project we should follow this region to understand the future of finance and macroeconomics so thank you very much for listening to me any questions now? Awesome, so thanks a lot for the great presentation I would propose then 30 minutes questions or 5 minutes questions I cannot hear anything so if there's no more question I hope there's no more question because again I'm a little bit behind like in 30 seconds behind the streaming then I would propose I would have a presentation a little bit more on the technical side and then I would have a presentation basically at the end of the session so basically sorry there's one question when will be the paper out and where can we find it I would propose let me answer this question at the end basically in the question and answer session we're not gonna forget it for sure what we're gonna have is to have a little bit more in details some of the CBDC technical considerations and I'm trying not to be very much scientific but I hope I can cover a couple of important points so this is actually an old slide it was somehow like three years ago this is like a comparison between Bitcoin and CBDC and well of course this comparison is not 100% correct because I mean you might ask so do we really need to compare Bitcoin with CBDC so do we really need like CBDC with blockchain and the answer is not necessary but I mean despite this an introduction it might be a good idea to just make some comparison between the two technologies so we can compare the stuff slide if we speak about like on blockchain or on some other topics and this is two layers usually one is the infrastructure infrastructure and the second layer is basically let's just call it as the application so if we have these two layers and again so usually we regard it as some kind of blockchain infrastructure infrastructure and the application but it might be some other payment solution as well so if we regard these two points then we can say that Bitcoin is very much decentralized basically both from an infrastructure perspective and from an application perspective as well I mean application is basically sending transaction from one people to another one basically if we regard CBDC it's much more centralized much more centralized especially on the infrastructure side so we don't have the either blockchain or payment nodes anywhere in the world but just with some very special dedicated companies very special payment providers and financial institutes in terms of applications like sending transactions from one to another one CBDC probably not as public as Bitcoin because it has some limitations especially in QIC or AML or perhaps geographical limitation but despite even a transactional level on an application level CBDC try to capture probably as many people as possible so it's pretty open there's some other points as well it's like the governance of the system if you say like what's the monetary policy behind Bitcoin we get like 21 million Bitcoin and that's the hard cap of Bitcoin actually this is not exactly true because this is of course hard coding in the code but it can be actually changed supposing that everybody agrees or every minor agrees basically in the community so it is said to be a hard cap but put it with a little bit other words it can be set with the help of a very broad community agreement on the contrary CBDC something which is usually I mean the monetary policy will be somehow somehow set by by central bank or by an agreement of different different financial institutes so I would say that such a monetary policy agreement is set by a smaller group of people or institutes basically there's something as geography geographies is a Bitcoin I mean it's basically it's scaled up to the whole world regarding CBDC it's gonna be more located on to one location to one country but I mean as we just seen practically in the last presentation I mean many countries try to extend this CBDC beyond beyond its geographical limit so it might be more broader than basically just one country there's something as storage it's pretty much questionable how the storage look like in Bitcoin there's a private key if I have the private key I have the money in CBDC there are different ways of doing this there can be like a private key based token based solution there can be a more classical way like similar to having a bank account at the moment regarding the application and transfer side basically I mean everybody can transfer Bitcoin from a technical point of view in terms of CBDC this is more it's gonna be more limited with some key ICN-AML policy probably and there's the last aspect is the operation but I think it's gonna be pretty much the same so I mean all systems got today's like 99.999% of time so this is not such a huge difference I got one more slide this is like a little bit comparing like different I wouldn't say financial instruments but like you know I'm in crypto financial instruments and CBDCs and then we got like 1, 2, 5, 6, 3 9 the first one is the central bank tissue the second one if that's financial instruments I don't say money because it has some more specific terms but let me just say if the financial instruments is a legal tender somewhere if the financial instrument is central bank bank if it is packed to a fiat currency so if it is in parity regarding of price stability 1 to 1 to a fiat currency if it is peer-to-peer and if it is programmable basically and having these six dimensions we can compare some of the financial institutes so we got cash a lot of people don't like cash but I think cash is a good technology even if it's not digital it is basically central bank tissue it is a legal tender central bank bank it is fiat banked I mean it is a fiat money of course it is peer-to-peer it's actually a couple of like good anonymity and sell anonymity properties as well unfortunately it is not digital and not programmable so hopefully like retail CBDC we're going to cover just in a second what's exactly retail CBDC retail CBDC will cover all of these aspects in the future or perhaps already initiatives as well it's important to compare some other financial assets as well so we can have something as a synthetic CBDC synthetic CBDC is not issued by the central bank and it might not be used in legal tenders but it is issued by for instance so-called e-money providers but it is backed by a central bank it is backed to the fiat money so it is imperative to want fiat money it is peer-to-peer and programmable digital money if you compare it with some other such financial instruments asset-backed stable coins that's like USDC or TETR if you're familiar with the crypto world so these are such an instrument that are basically of course not final central bank issued they can't be used at the moment as far as I know in legal tenders they are not backed by central banks they can be actually fiat-backed so like USDC is a stable currency so it is somehow backed to a fiat to dollar for instance they are realized with peer-to-peer system it's blockchain in this example and they are very much programmable at this moment last but not least we can have something as a crypto asset as a classical crypto asset it's like Bitcoin or Ether they have the properties peer-to-peer and programmable very strongly of course they do not really have the other attributes the other properties so going a little bit more into technical terms what we can take a look of course is the levels of the system and regarding CBDC and levels of the systems usually we can talk about two different kind of systems there's the one level CBDC and the two level CBDC so you can see something in this which is I see more common but I'm not a financial expert actually so what you can see here basically is a two level system we got like a central bank somewhere this is actually the digital dollar project so we got this federal reserve at the top of the picture and then there's actually one system which is called CBDC which makes transaction between different financial institutes and the central bank so this is a pure institutional CBDC system and there's another one as well, the other one makes some transactions, some services between financial institutes like commercial banks and basically end users and there can be actually a strong distinguishing between the institutional version and the end user version so it's not absolutely coincidentally that we distinguish these two systems and we say this is basically a wholesale CBDC and we say for end user and end user digital currency that's it's kind of a retail CBDC system it's because I mean the two system might have totally different system, totally different technological realization even different technologies and platforms so we might as well have something as a blockchain for retail CBDC and having an absolute classical something classical a classical money system a money transfer system for wholesale CBDC or on the contrary we might as well have wholesale CBDC practically for interbanking communication and interbanking value transfer but despite we use something as cash on an end user side so all these scenarios are possible and this is a so called two level system there's another possibility of having one level system as well in one level system practically a central bank has direct service for end customers for end users I think it's perhaps in Sweden if I'm not mistaken not a two level but a one level system is considered rather I mean on the one hand it has more technical challenges because I mean one system should cover all which might be more difficult to design on the other hand so people usually don't like the one level system because I mean central banks do direct operations with end customers then there might be some intermediaries in the middle that are no longer necessary so it might cause the whole structure of the financial market I mean going between a wide the direction which should be avoided for sure so this is the two levels we got wholesale and we got retail having different implications for the technology of course this is another distinguishing point and here is the question is what kind of a CBDC model do we have basically we get like two major ideas or two major versions one is a token based model a token based model is just like cash so basically we got like two parties or we got like two people and then they can just exchange like a piece of paper or a piece of money and they can do it without too many I wouldn't say absolutely but without too many intermediaries almost directly so if you just consider this kind of model then basically here I mean if you consider cash, cash is basically exchanged directly so there's no intermediary at all similarly if you have here like cryptocurrency then there's basically a network that settles that transaction but basically that network is pretty much out on can't be really influenced can't be really done anything with it so we can say that if this token is basically a cryptocurrency then we have almost no intermediary basically for the exchange the other model is the account based one in the account based one it's more like the banking system at the moment so basically we get two parties the two parties want to exchange basically some kind of a value and then it looks that way that hey party goes to an operator we can say operator it's usually commercial bank and say hey I want to make some value transfer so operator one makes the value transfer for the operator two and then operator two basically makes some accounting on the account of party B this is actually party B, not party A anyway so this is like an account based model it's much more based on basically trusted intermediaries than the other one so this is the classical two type of CBDCs and I would say it has some implication on the technology as well because like considering the account based model you don't necessarily need blockchain for an account based model so it can work very well without any problems with the nowadays financial institutes and actually money transfer technologies actually there's surprisingly especially in horses CBDC there's initiatives to put distributed ledger into account based CBDC models as well and especially it looks that way that basically in horses CBDCs what's happening in an account based model and users but it's basically financial institutes or banks exchanging IOU models or IOU kind of an IOU contracts and the administration of this IOU contracts can be realized pretty efficiently with a couple of distributed ledger technologies like with the help of our free corner we're gonna cover that a little bit later I would say token model basically chain based technology provides a lot of very good properties for a token model so in token model if you have something as a digital signature for the exchange if the token that you exchange is more like a poker jet on or basically more like a piece of money it can be much better handled actually than some other abstraction if you have basically a ledger where you can take a look on all of the movements of your token and verify all of your movement of your token that might help a lot as well and so on and so on so I would say considering the token model probably one of the best solutions is there some kind of a hybrid blockchain solution with a token model it's not so much necessary so this was basically an introduction let me just take a look some more design considerations so like we can have several general categories one category might be like the architecture of the whole the IT architecture we have the whole staff supposing we are speaking about the IT architecture then the important staffs are if it's an account or a token based model basically it can be a hybrid one as well so if you just consider that we want to build a two level system then we might as well say that the whole sale part will be token based so that might be a possibility as well the most important question and this is a very good and very general question is if it's centralized or decentralized I would say the question is not so easy it's never centralized or decentralized it's the question is how much it is decentralized or how much it is decentralized so it won't be something on the edges but something in the middle and then centralized or decentralized can be asked not just for one property of the system but actually for a lot of staffs so for instance how much is the infrastructure centralized or decentralized how much is the end users I mean the users of the transactions are centralized or decentralized that's the question how much is the governance of the system centralized or decentralized like setting the issue of policy of the given CBDC token who needs to be decided for that if we want to do something that how much is that decision process centralized or decentralized what about upgrading the system I mean having a new version a new IT version of the system who can decide if a new IT version should be installed or not how much that decision making process is centralized or decentralized so I would say this topic basically affects a lot of things it's just not so easy to analyze this the next one is basically security so security is a very complex question as well basically in like blockchain systems you can see there are like free sources of security and then if you use blockchain then you can analyze these free sources of security first we got cryptography so basically it looks that way we have a complex system which is basically a CBDC or even two CBDCs having the wholesale and retail stuff as well and then there are certain properties of this system and then the certain parts or properties of the systems can have different security guarantee so again one possible security guarantee is that we have cryptographic security for certain parts of the systems like for if we want to start basically a transaction we can have something as a digital signature that's a cryptographical guarantee for a certain system security we can have something as an economic security guarantee like for instance in public blockchain systems there's the so called economic security margin if I'm not mistaken that's the correct name it means that for instance in bitcoin for double spending a coin there's no cryptographic guarantee only economic so you can do double spending it costs you so much money that it's not profitable cryptographic guarantee only an economic guarantee basically and then especially in consortium blockchains or like in CBDCs as well we can have something as institutional guarantee as well so like instead of double spending in bitcoin and having an economic guarantee we might as well say that hey for double spending basically in a CBDC setup there's an institutional guarantee and double spend but majority of the financial institutes must agree on that and then you can double spend that's a classical institutional guarantee so basically analyzing security is such a complex task as analyzing centralization and decentralization the next one is interoperability it's just in one word or one sentence in a CBDC I mean a CBDC should practically collaborate with co-operate with everything in the countries so I mean basically all the current somehow value transfer systems money systems and all the stuff that are somehow attached to any kind of money moving the functionality must be interoperable with the architecture so yeah it's not such an easy task more like blockchain or non-blockchain question is performance of course CBDC must have like I would say at least like 10,000 transactions per second especially public blockchains do not perform very well in such a performance so like the bitcoin has like I don't know at most 7 transactions per second Ethereum is public Ethereum is like 15 DR of course not really suitable for a CBDC use case in this version another topic is privacy or transparency like blockchain systems weren't exactly designed for having the same privacy or transparency guarantees that are classical in like classical financial institutes so there can be a lot of issue here certainly I would just cover the rest in one category so one big aspect is basically if I say CBDC of course I mean it's especially what's the category that we regard but if I say CBDC I just don't mean that we got something as a digital money moving from from place A to B what I'm thinking of is that there's kind of a financial infrastructure that is programmable has in a kind of smart contracts and basically you can do like tokenizations on a short run kind of further use cases that are coming so if you just take a look what's happening on the public blockchain space basically people are defining DeFi decentralized finance NFT tokens and stuff like that and of course especially in a public blockchain area they are very much in an experimental phase but supposing that it is already visible that some of the DeFi protocols will succeed and can be adapted to in a CBDC framework as well or some of the NFT tokens for instance use cases really succeed and can be adapted to a CBDC context then it will be a very big advantage if we can adapt them so if we have a CBDC system which is programmable if you want to program like NFT it's possible if you want to do kind of a DeFi protocol in a more regulated context it is possible if there's such a use case which we don't even see at the moment because it will be coming like in five years in the DeFi space but could be adapted to a CBDC context then it's important that the system is capable of adapting such a use cases so this is like the architecture consideration I got some policy considerations as well I'm not so much in the policy but they I'm not so much expert in the policy sorry to put it exactly but these policy considerations might effect very strongly the technology as well so again centralized versus decentralized that's a very complex question including both architecture and policy governance is again a very very complex system covering practically a lot of a lot of the system I mean token issuance and token supply is a question is there a programmable issuance or supply of the digital token of CBDC or is it decided by some policy makers then the question is who are the policy makers supposing there's new token in the system who gets it first or supposing that we want to not increase the supply but decrease the supply it can be actually managed technically so what do we do in that situation and who decides it basically there's a lot of legal implications of that I'm not so expert in this topic so I can't speak about it it's usually like social inclusiveness so basically one critic of the classical financial systems is that they are not so much socially inclusive that might be possible with Bitcoin but I would say one such a design decision or architecting decision might be if there's a new CBDC system then it might be designed more to regard or more to bear this social inclusiveness as well it's a technological question as well I would have two exciting points here that might not be covered normally in CBDC so one is basically offline news so it might be surprising that we speak about the fully digital currency and we speak about offline usage but just consider the fact that there's something as an internet outage it's like a global hacking or there's a disaster and basically like for two weeks the internet of the country is down so it is practical if CBDC has some kind of a backup solution that works even if network is down for two weeks so a network is overloaded by distributed denial of service attacks by some hacker groups and then we do not really have practical usage of the internet for two weeks it's not very practical if in that case the whole I mean the monetary system stops so usually there should be some kind of an offline usage it can be steel cash that would be one way there might be some other brainstorming as well like using sign transactions even in a printed form or something but there are some limitations as well because if we have a sign transaction we can't really avoid that but it might work I mean there should be something designed which might work even in a limited case in case of network outage and last but not least systematic risk so usually it is said that if it has some systematic risk I can't decide it but usually people say that I mean so with the help of such a CBDC systems or even cryptocurrencies the systematic risk can be avoided I have some experience with DeFi and I would say this is not exactly true in this form so like in DeFi for instance everything is blockchain, everything is cryptocurrency and basically everything is run by smart contracts there is a lot of systematic risk of course this risk is probably different than in the financial system but I mean despite despite even cryptocurrency and smart contracts there will be some systematic risk as much as possible so some more aspects I already covered some of these topics but just going through on the list very fast so one technical requirement it's actually another list so that's the reason basically I have some items which you found previously either by central banks or by some limited dupe of institutes what's important is basically the performance and here is where actually blockchains do not perform very well so when it's something as a Brazilian time as a transfer I mean there can't be such transaction costs like nowadays on the Ethereum or Bitcoin network so it's like in such cases you pay like I don't know $10 for making a transaction it is certainly a no go in a CBDC use case it's again performance we need something as a high transaction throughput so like I would say like from 10,000 transactions per second which is not easily solved by distributed ledger systems and the large number of network participants what's perhaps surprising or not usually mentioned is user experience and user interface so usually if you have some kind of a blockchain system then the user experience is goes usually in the web-free direction web-free direction looks that way that we got like keys we store these keys in a wallet we are responsible for these keys so supposing we lose the key so we are responsible for backing up or restoring these keys or basically for the security of these keys so this is a strong web-free user experience and what I would say surprisingly many people especially like in the crypto space are adapting to this user experience so I mean there are initiatives of course giving like classical user experience in such a critical situation as well but supposing many people have just adapted to having this web-free user experience and they use it but I wouldn't say that in like a CBDC use case normal citizen or normal people we adapt very fast and can use something as a web-free user experience I mean like generating keys, storing the keys having my own wallet and being fully responsible for the security and backup and restore for my wallet this is one category we have the privacy and confidentiality of the data especially with like KYC and EMA regulation it's not easily solved or not very simply solvable in blockchain they were not primarily designed for matching KYC or EMA regulation of classical financial institutes there are initiatives and there are of course good initiatives but this is a challenging task of course this is regarded a little bit to the user experience it's like asset recovery so again what happens if I lose my key and then in crypto if I lose my key I lost my token I lost my asset, I lost my money but probably this is not something which is accepted in a CBDC use case so something for asset recovery recovery must be considered actually in a crypto space as well it's like having a second key and a third key and then if I lose my first key then I can use my second key and if I lose my second key then perhaps my third key is not stored by me but by stored by some custodian institutes and then they can actually recover my asset so there are work rounds for that but it's this pattern issue and last but not least it's the acceptable environment impact so basically at the moment like Bitcoin and Ethereum networks still working with proof of work have such an environment impact that can't be really accepted on a very long run so it's not something that can be designed for a CBDC of course so I have like three more slides and then basically the next two slides or three slides what I'm gonna cover a little bit so these are the points actually that should be considered from a technical perspective when designing basically a CBDC and so I'm more like a blockchain distributed ledger expert so what I collected is basically it's a couple of examples of archipeliers that were proposed for CBDC use cases and I know basically like three or four ones there are two on these slides so this is the first slide and this is basically an Ethereum implementation I'm not sure if it is really used but perhaps it is already experienced anyway this is a consensus proposition using the Ethereum technology for CBDC use cases and it might be surprising because Ethereum is not so much I mean it has performance problems it has scalability problems transaction fees high I'm not suggesting that Ethereum gets something possible but basically there are some good ideas how Ethereum can be used in a CBDC use case actually this is a consensus proposal you can find basically the link at the bottom of the slide so basically the idea is the following first we get like public Ethereum we can use Ethereum in a consortium setup as well consortium setup means that the nodes are not running by everyone but basically the nodes are running in special financial or regulated institutions this implies actually that the consensus can be changed from like proof of work or even proof of stake to proof of authority so it means basically that the network can be faster a little bit faster I mean it can be like 10 times or 20 times faster I don't know you can get like 100 or perhaps even 1000 transactions per second so it's not so much faster but certainly faster than at the moment for Ethereum and then basically the idea is this picture represents a two layer system for CBDC so there will be basically a consortium base settlement layer at the bottom which connects central banks and basically some highly important financial institutes as well not for sure if there are commercial banks here but something similar in the direction so the problem is that basically even if we have consortium in Ethereum this is like even 1000 transactions per second might not be enough so what we use is that's called a state channel so in a state channel what we do basically is we do something as an initiating transaction it is coalescent transaction but it isn't so important and with this initiating transaction we open a channel with a party where we can transact transactions like sending money or sending where you are talking with the party without having any collaboration with the blockchain so that's what happens if I want to transact directly with one organization I can open basically a state channel that requires something as an anchor transaction to a consortium blockchain like here I can send as many transactions as I want directly to that organization and then basically at the end I should somehow close this channel so closing the channel means again having basically a transaction on a core blockchain somehow the idea of state channels is that I have like two transactions on a blockchain on an Ethereum consortium network and basically like opening and closing the channel and in the channel I can have as many transactions as I want so practically if I can use state channels it's more like directly cooperating between two organizations but if I use state channels first I mean I can have as many transactions as my bandwidth so I can send theoretically if I have enough bandwidth I can send million transactions per second there's no such a limit on the other hand basically it's more private because everything happening on that state channel is visible only on that state channel only the initiating transaction and the closing transaction are which will be published to the core Ethereum blockchain protocol so this is a second idea and basically these two ideas are used and there's basically a third idea as well so we can build up basically Ethereum consortium Ethereum networks in a hierarchical ways so we can have something as a side blockchain or side channel as well so like having having a second consortium blockchain which has some transactions in the main blockchain but otherwise working independently and the idea is from consensus having a two layer both wholesale and retail CBDC structure in a way that basically combining consortium Ethereum networks with state channels and side channels and cyber blockchains so this is one idea the second idea is from a special from a special distributed ledger provider it's called the R3 Corda it is usually used in wholesale CBDC or proposed in wholesale CBDC use cases and the idea is actually that I mean R3 Corda is not a blockchain it's a very special distributed ledger technology that was built up sweet or fit as much as possible with the exact requirements of different financial services so the idea of R3 Corda is that we get some special properties like we don't have like global blockchain we do not have like global ledger but what we have is something which is called shared effects so if you just take a look on this picture we get like Alice, Bob Carr, Demi and Dad they can be institutes so usually they are institutes needing to collaborate with some cryptographic ledger use case and then if you just take a look like there's this one fact it's called one or this can be actually a contract this can be any kind of information that is even cryptographically secure so basically this one is shared by Alice and Bob but basically this one is not visible for the other parties similarly if you just take a look on seven it's basically visible to Alice or Alice and Bob but it is not visible for the other parties if you just take a look on like this free this free fact or this free contract is visible to Carr, to Ed and Demi but it is not visible for the rest of the network and again similarly if you just take a look on this nine nine is visible only to Carr and Ed and basically it's not visible to Demi to Bob and Alice so this makes some very strong privacy guarantee that fits very well actually in a whole SCVDC scenario so one idea effects are shared and I need to be busy there's no global ledger and there can be many so there can be many use case configured so as you see for instance if you just take a look on this fact this number three effect it's distributed on three parties but if you just take a look on this number one fact it's distributed just on two parties so there can be many different configuration having from totally decentralized to centralized and anything in the middle and it can be configured which fits very well in a whole SCVDC requirement and there's one more interesting point which fits again very well so basically it looks that way that there's this so called contract which is not exactly a smart contract here but contract means a normal written but digitized contract basically so it's an official contract of some legislation and basically the ledger itself is the evolution of such a contract so it looks that way that we get the historical contract like Bob and Alice with ten pounds then there's some change actually which is a transaction and then Alice pays back like five pounds so Alice of Bob just buy five pounds and then the end basically Alice pays back everything so the agreement is expired so the point is basically that these are like official contracts and the ledger itself is an evolution of such a contract and these contracts can be like if it's an Iowa contract to a central bank then we have something as almost as money basically going through on the ledger we have something as notary service as well as we do not have global broadcast there's a notary service that makes sure basically that there's no double spending and everything is correct on the ledger and this notary service is configurable so again you can have something as a fully decentralized semi decentralized or fully centralized service for such reasons and of course for this reason our privacy is again pretty good I mean it's simply because certain facts are not shared with certain parties so it means they are not there they can be same so basically that's the RFE call the ledger and wholesale as it was mentioned previously wholesale CBDC use cases usually like this technology so basically this was my presentation I hope I could manage to get some insight into the technological challenges of CBDC and then I would switch to a question and answer session in which I'm not quite sure how I do it but anyway so if you can post me you can post any of the present tests I will hear you in like 30 seconds delay but if you just ask a question for me in the chat as well I will surely see so this was the presentation and I would just put back basically the original picture thanks Daniel I just answered a previous question in the chat so that's my answer for it so if I correctly see it we got some questions and then let me just make let me just try to answer them and I hope I did not interrupt anybody so there's one question when will be the paper out and where can be found I think it was for one of you guys if I correctly see it we got some questions sorry that was me that was me on YouTube as well so anyway regarding the paper I think so you will find basically all these presentations just below the meetup on meetup.com I will send the link and I think I will send the link on YouTube as well and then as soon as some paper out and then we can update you guys as well so just one comment it's not programming this evening what's really necessary just a central bank bank real money asset we'll skip it a bit yeah it's a good question it's a good question so how do we exactly regard like programmability of like having a two-way pack between two blockchains and then we can make kind of a version of an atomic cross-chain swap between one blockchain and the other one and then we do not necessarily need something as programmability or smart contract that might be one way if it works so the point is like if you want to connect two blockchains it's like one way is the atomic cross-chain swap but that might work only in certain situations so like if you like just exchange token it works because there's an economic incentive of making the protocol in a correct way if you want to extend for any kind of general use case it might be difficult but anyway this is just my point of view so it might be enough instead of programmability just connecting basically a CBDC with a programmable DLT part I'm not quite sure what's interesting about the hybrid blockchain model is not so CBDC won't be realized actually with a simple blockchain technology that there won't be anything I think which is a pure blockchain and it serves CBDC we speak of hybrid models always so there must be some extensions there must be some combinations and so on and so on yeah I did mean R3 Corda so notary service in R3 Corda is basically it looks that way so you get a transaction so your ledger is basically an evolution of contracts you can have a transaction that are signed by different parties and then basically you can even program how this flow works so who should sign that we have basically a new contract from the old one so notary service does two things first it checks like there's no double spending second it checks if this signature structure is correct again it's not so simple as like in Bitcoin there's not one signature but you can somehow configure and program who should sign in one situation and checking these stuffs is done by the notary service in R3 Corda submitted thanks for your question sorry I'm just reading it too how download slides again we're going to update below YouTube as well and basically on the meetup channel as well so you will find all the slides yeah so you're right basically this is a Hyperledger meetup and unfortunately I do not really know if there's Hyperledger CBDC proposal but perhaps it's coming in the long run so for this reason we just went a little bit in another direction and did not cover very special Hyperledger technologies we're going to do it in the next session okay so then theoretically there's something which with CBDC far is with Hyperledger Iroa and more are coming yeah I didn't know it but then so we have like Hyperledger Iroa that is being experimented actually with CBDC actually we knew about one such a proof of concept which like Hyperledger fabric but as far as I know it wasn't realized basically so I hope I have all the questions so I just mute myself and I just give like two minutes if you have some more questions or some other topics perhaps for the other presenters as well just be aware that if you issue question for me I'm in 30 seconds delay getting these questions so if there's no more question then let me just share my screen again and then I would just like you thank you very much for your attention and then if there's no more questions then let me just share my screen again and then I would just like you thank you sorry that was me so this is the end of the session I hope you enjoyed the session I hope you enjoyed the session I hope you enjoyed the session I hope you enjoyed the session so again thanks for your attention and then see you next time thank you very much see you bye bye