 everyone to the this is a joint meeting between the Essex Planning Commission and the Essex Select Board. Mr. Watts, the chairman, you guys normally do a call to order so this is our call to order. I will call the select board meeting or second one for the evening for April 27th, 2023 to order. We have no changes noted in the agenda at this point. At this point, if you guys are ready, they normally open the floor to public comments, questions for any items that are any questions for items that are not on the agenda. And for folks online, if you could just raise your hand and I see nobody raising your hand so. Recording in progress. Got it. At this point, Andy. Okay, move on to the first and the first business item, which is a joint discussion between the two boards and a presentation from Taylor Newton from the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission. The intent here is education for both boards and for the public with regard to how planning takes place and also have answered questions about transitioning from a ZBA model to a PRB. So, Taylor, go ahead and introduce yourself. Thanks for having me. I'm Taylor Newton. I'm the planning program manager at CCRPC. I have a background in land use planning. I've been a land use planner practicing in Vermont for about 10 years on the municipal and the regional level. Hang on a second, please, Taylor. I need to double check our attendance. Is Tom online? There is a person with just a phone number. Is Tom Furlin on the line at this point? Okay, without that, I apologize, but that changes the meeting to a select board meeting. We do not have a quorum, so the planning commission is not officially sitting as a committee tonight as a commission. We have three members only present. We were expecting a fourth online. We do not see them at this point. If he joins further on, we can continue, but until then, I have to see the table over to you. All right. So, can we continue? Yes. It'll just be a select board meeting. I think that the content is still relevant. I see Tom. Tables have turned. Okay. Now we have quorum. Let's rewind. I'm sure. Yes. I guess that would be a good idea. So, I'll start with myself. I'm Andy Watts, I'm the chair of the Essex Town Select Board. Tracy Delphia, I'm the vice chair of the Town Select Board. Kendall Chamberlain Clerk, Town Select Board. Ethan Lawrence, Town Select Board. John Hill Fleury, Select Board. Greg Duggan, Town Manager. Dustin Brousseau, Chairman of Essex Planning Commission. John Schumacher, PC member. Georgia Levine, Planning Commission. Newby is my second meeting. Okay. Yes. Georgia Levine, this is only my second meeting, Planning Commission. I'm Furlan, Planning Commission, but last meeting. My name is Kent Johnson. I work in the Planning Department, Town Planner. And Catherine Sadek, I am the Planning Director at our community development. Okay. Thank you. So, Newton. Apologize for the interruption. Yeah. No worries. So, I have a presentation to provide. And is that presentation going to be up on this screen here? Yes. Excellent. I will. So, the presentation tonight is really just the nuts and bolts of municipal planning and land use regulation in Vermont. So, off the top, we're going to talk about generally and very briefly planning, because I know we want to talk mostly about regulation. And we're going to talk about the roles and responsibilities of each municipal board in, as a part of the planning process and as part of the regulatory process. We're going to talk about taking the actual Town Plan itself and implementing it, both through regulatory means, so rules and through non-regulatory means. And then we're going to talk through the basics of meetings, hearings, due process, open meeting law, those sorts of things. I can tell you already have that down a bit by talking through corn. So, any questions before we kick off? Okay. Let's get started. We can go to the next slide, Catherine. Sorry, just a title slide. We don't really need that there. We've been planning in Vermont for a very long time, at least since the 1920s. Vermont enabled municipalities to adopt zoning starting in the 1930s, but there really haven't been a lot of changes to statute over the course of that almost 100 years now. The last major overhaul of state statute was back in 2004. I wouldn't even consider the housing bill this year necessarily an overhaul state statute. And so, we're probably due for one next couple years. But this slide's really just to show you that the outline of what we're doing in terms of the planning commission roles and the select board roles have been around for about 100 years. Next slide. Why have a municipal plan? It's a good idea to generally have a municipal plan to guide what you want to achieve as a municipality. A lot of municipalities or a lot of municipal plans are really focused on land use, focused on transportation, focused on public facilities, but they're comprehensive and can talk about almost any topic you want. We're going to talk a little bit and a little bit about the required elements of a plan, the optional goals that are in state statute that could be included in the municipal plan, but the real takeaway is you can talk about anything you want in terms of the municipal plan. The municipal plan guides the work of the planning commission, but can also guide the work of the select board itself in the town at large. A lot of municipalities have actions identified in their plan that could apply to select boards, conservation commissions, any ad hoc committees you want to create. It's important when developing a municipal plan that you have a very broad, comprehensive public process. You know, in Essex, once upon a time you guys did Heart and Soul. That's a really good example of a very broad and comprehensive public planning process. Let's go on to the next slide, Catherine. When you have a municipal plan, you can do certain things. You can adopt zoning and subdivision regulations. You can also adopt flood hazard regulations. If you don't have a town plan, you can't adopt rules to regulate development. By having a municipal plan, development applications that are subject to Act 250 must comply with your plan. That's criteria in 10 and Act 250 that projects must comply with both the municipal and the regional plan. Having a town plan also means that Section 248 applications, so those are applications for renewable generation facilities, solar facilities, wind facilities. It's criteria in Section 248 that also says that those facilities must comply with your municipal plan as a part of their permitting process. It also sets up the municipality for not only having more competitive grant applications, but actually being eligible for most state grant applications. Municipal planning grants, you need to have a municipal plan. To levy impact fees, you need to have a municipal plan. The municipal plan is really the basis for enabling the municipality to do a lot of different things from a regulatory perspective. There's also the carrot of funding out there for you to implement your plan if you have one. Next slide. Regions themselves are the RPC. We provide regional approval to municipal plans if it's sought by the municipality. We make sure that the municipal plan meets statutory goals and policies, complies with the regional plan, but we also do something called confirmation of your planning process. We review not only the process to create your plan, but that you're allocating budget to planning purposes, that you're working with your municipality or sorry, neighboring municipalities and considering their plans as a part of your plan. As I spoke about in the last slide, by having this plan, you're eligible for certain grants, ability to levy impact fees, but the thing I left out was that you also need to have regional approval to do those things. You also need to have your planning process regionally confirmed. These bullet points outline the statute of what we need to see as a region in order to confirm your planning process. Next slide. Just a quote that you guys probably talked about something similar when you did Heart and Soul, which is when it comes to planning, if you're not doing it with people, they think you're doing it to them. That's why it's important to have a comprehensive wide and probably long public planning process that you bring people along as you develop your plan, incorporate their ideas, show them how you've incorporated their ideas. If you don't do that, you're bound to receive some pushback. So it's a healthy reminder here as a part of this presentation. Next slide. I interrupt for a second. Sure thing. The public packet on Civic Court does not include this slide show. No, it came in afterwards, but I was just trying to follow along and I'm like, I don't have this in the public packet, so that was going to be an issue for it being learned on the meeting. We haven't heard. That was all. Is it printed yet? No, it is not, but we can print it. I'm just saying we're viewing it together. All right, right. It should have been emailed, it was emailed too. Yeah, I can forward it too. It should have been provided to the public though, though. If we have presentations that come in on time, we try to include them in the packet, but other times when we don't, in which case we just present them at the meeting. Well, the meeting is being recorded. I know, so. Right. Yeah, I was just curious what you guys were reading along. I saw Kendall's on the screen. And we can post this up on the website. Okay. As you can see in state statute, there are a lot of different planning goals established by the legislature. They're really broad. They deal with everything from flood resiliency to child care, to air quality, to the efficient provision of public services. These planning goals are optional. Most municipalities choose to meet these goals because these goals are required if you want to receive regional approval of your municipal plan. On the next slide, you'll see the required elements. These are required regardless of whether or not you seek regional approval of your plan. You need to have a land use plan. You need to have a future land use map. You need to have an economic development chapter. You need to have a housing chapter or at least sections within chapters that deal with these issues. I won't go step by step, but just know that there are specific requirements you need to meet within each one of these categories in that specific statute, 4382. Next slide. Plans expire every eight years. This is a change from a few years ago. It just expired every five years. The intent behind changing it from five years to eight years was to allow you guys more time to actually implement your plan. A lot of municipalities were feeling planning fatigue. They would start a planning process. It would take two years to develop the plan. They'd have a year or two to implement the plan. They'd start planning the next plan. The intent here is to provide more runway to actually implement your plan. Things change slowly in Vermont. It also provides more time for things to change and perhaps reevaluate what's happening in the community. Adoption, as you guys probably know, takes a long time. It needs to be three public hearings here in Essex because you guys are an urban municipality. One of the planning commission, two of the select board. Then you guys go to ballot to actually adopt. That is uncommon for a municipality of your size. Most municipalities just adopt to be a select board action. Plans go into effect upon adoption, unlike regulations, which we'll talk about in a sec. Your planning staff knows this. If you're developing a municipal plan on your own, the Vermont Planning Manual is a really great resource. It would direct you there. I really like how it frames all planning topics within the framework of maintain, evolve, or transform, particularly in terms of land use planning. I think it just provides an easy lens to have a conversation with regular folks in your municipality about different geographic areas in your town and how you want to see them either stay the same, change a little bit, or totally evolve to something different. Next slide. This is what I'm really here to talk about, roles and responsibilities. So over the top of everything, and not just over planning, but everything is the legislative body itself, is the select board. The select board has a say in each one of these subtasks, the legislative task, the quasi-judicial task, and the administrative task. Not much of a say, at least over quasi-judicial and administrative. We'll talk about that in a second, but a heavy say in the legislative function. Most of the legislative function is under the jurisdiction of the Planning Commission, and so that is writing municipal plans, that is writing municipal bylaws, that is doing the real heavy planning work and policy setting. They don't have the final say. Typically those plans and policies and regulations, in almost all cases, then go to the select board for adoption. And so that's where the select board interacts with the planning process through the legislative function. I'm going to skip quasi-judicial, but to the administrative function, how, sorry, let's stay with quasi-judicial for a second. The quasi-judicial function is essentially like a court. A DRB plays that function, or will play that function here in Essex. And so the quasi-judicial function is about implementing the rules adopted by municipality. So select board adopts land use regulations, and then the larger applications go through a quasi-judicial proceeding before the DRB. The DRB takes an application, then applies the rules, and renders a written decision. You guys are used to operating under the PCZBA model. That's where the PC has kind of a split role between the legislative function and the quasi-judicial function. But under the DRB model, all that is insulated under one board. They are the board that makes all quasi-judicial decisions. The legislative body plays a role, and the quasi-judicial function really in two ways. One is through the appointment of DRB members. Then two, it also plays a role under appeal. When there is an appeal of a quasi-judicial decision, the select board is the entity that would make a decision about how to interact. With the appeal in front of e-court. Go ahead. I thought later in this presentation, it says that the appeal goes to the environmental court. It goes to the environmental court. And so what I'm saying is that when that appeal happens to the environmental court, the town then, the select board, makes a decision about how to interact with that appeal before the e-court. Because there's various different ways you could interact with that appeal. And we can talk about that when we get to that slide though. But to be really clear here, the quasi-judicial process is owned by the DRB, your planning commission in our current case. If a resident objects to a decision that's been made by the planning commission in that realm, the appeal is always to the e-court. The appeal is not to the select board. That's a little bit unlike other states. In other states, select boards or city councils are typically involved in the quasi-judicial process. There's typically like a DRB that'll make a decision. Then there'll also be a select board making a decision in sequence. That doesn't happen in Vermont. We just have all that power consulted under one DRB as an FYI. So other than possibly changing regulations, a decision is based on the regulations that are in place at the time that the decision is made. And that if there's some concern about those regulations, it has to go through the whole regulation process. The regulations would have to be changed by the planning commission. And then by the planning commission comes back to the select board through multiple public hearings. Public hearings. Correct. Eventually gets approved by the select board and then any applications that come in after the point that it's approved would have or whatever the effective date is within those new rules would apply. I just want to make sure that that's a clear. Correct. That's a question that has come up to us. Okay. Yeah. The DRB makes decisions based on the rules that are in place. Full stop. In today's world, in our model that we currently have, EC does that, performs that role in addition to the planning model. The applications that come in are reviewed with the regulations in place, unless it's a continuance or a amendment. And then the regulations that were in place at the time, the original applications, it gets a little muddy. It gets complicated in terms of timing and with vested rights, depending on how many sequences of public hearings you have in terms of prelim final too. And I am not a lawyer. But yeah, it can get complicated. And I think things particularly get complicated in Vermont too around the fact that when new regulations are worn by the select board, staff and the DRB, actually, let me take that back, staff, not the DRB, staff has to review every application submitted to them under two sets of rules under the existing rule and under the proposed rule. And so that gets complicated. And then let's say the rules are adopted by the select board, then there's an effective date 21 days after that. And so then we go back down to one set of rules, the existing rules. And how statute is set up doesn't make a lot of sense, but at least that's my interpretation of how those things work. All right, now that we're all thoroughly confused about how the rules work and the effective dates, administrative function is performed by the zoning administrator. The zoning administrator is the person who's actually implementing the rules on a day to day basis. They're the ones that are taking the larger applications, taking the DRB decisions, and then actually that same applicant will come in for a zoning permit to let's say build a commercial structure. They're the ones that are making sure that that zoning permit application complies the DRB decision and the rest of the bylaw with, you know, let's say a single family home. That's not something that's going to go to your quasi-judicial body. That's going to go right to the ZA through a zoning permit. Same, same deal. ZA is making sure that that single family home, the zoning permit application complies with their rules. They're administrating the bylaw. The legislative body plays a part in this just through an appointment of the ZA itself. You guys make that appointment. ZA can't be removed. ZA can be removed, I think for cause after a public hearing. It rarely happens in Vermont. But the ZA really is supposed to act as an independent entity administering the bylaw. Any questions on roles and responsibilities? Check online real quick. Tom, any questions? Forget. Okay. Just a note on regulation bylaw or ordinance. We use these terms interchangeably in Vermont, but they all mean something a little bit different. So I just want to note that. Regulation is a broad term. It can apply to any kind of rule. Either through an ordinance is a regulation or has regulations in it. A bylaw has regulations within it. A regulation just refers to any kind of rule. There could be state regulations, federal regulations. A bylaw is actually something specific. And in Vermont, whenever you have rules related to zoning, it has to be a bylaw. And the big difference with bylaws and the big difference between bylaws and ordinances is that bylaws have to allow for grandfathering. They have to allow for things that are non-conforming under your new rules to continue to exist into perpetuity. And with our ordinance, that's not the case. Ordinances don't allow for grandfathering. What's like use the case of a noise ordinance? Select board adopts a noise ordinance, then everything must come into compliance immediately. Select board adopts maybe a separate sign ordinance. Except for shooting ranges. I'm sure I'm going to let that sit there. Don't want to take a shot at that one? I don't want to take a shot. Thank you. That was good. I didn't expect puns tonight. You'd haven't been to a planning commission. But that's the big difference between bylaws and ordinances is that bylaws, there's grandfathering, ordinances, everything must come into compliance immediately. Next slide. Implementing the municipal plan. They implement the municipal plan really in two different ways. We implement it through regulatory implementation, creating rules that folks must follow on town and through non-regulatory implementation. That's typically through creating some sort of planning process, creating some sort of plan, figuring out how to do a bike walk master plan, doing a sidewalk plan, doing a scoping study for some piece of infrastructure you need. That's non-regulatory implementation. I'm going to focus first on regulatory implementation and quickly zoning rules. While I have local land use regulations, all these reasons, all these reasons come right from state statute. You'll see if you put this slide right next to the slide that was about state planning goals, they pretty much match. It's about having compact development surrounded by rural countryside. It's about making sure we're not fragmenting farmland in our rural areas. It's about making sure that our urban areas are safe to all modes of transportation. Excellent. Local regulation is limited by a few different things. I'm going to first going to talk about the second bullet. Vermont is a Dylan's rule state. Does everyone know what that means? So a Dylan's rule state is essentially a state where the legislature holds all power and the legislature determines exactly what powers are then delegated to municipalities. So in the circumstance of zoning, the legislature has delegated certain specific powers to municipalities in terms of how they can regulate development through zone. Yeah, I always described Dylan's rule as the state tells municipalities what they're allowed to do as opposed to a home rule state where municipalities can do whatever they want unless they're told they can't. And so we can't just arbitrarily do things. We have to have permission from our legislature to do that. Right. And with zoning and subdivision, the legislature has provided a pretty clear framework of the rules you need to operate within. You don't have carte blanche. Select words have pretty broad authority. Not with zoning or subdivision, but have pretty broad authority generally. But PCs, their authority is very specific in state statute. DRBs, it's very specific in state statute. CA, it's very specific in state statute. So you're limited by what statute enables you to do as a municipality. Dylan's regulations are also limited by the 5th and 14th amendment. Again, not a lawyer, but 5th amendment deals with due process, both in terms of procedural due process, making sure that the process outline of statute is followed, that folks go through that sketch plan, that prelim, that final. However, you've whatever you've created in terms of that process, in terms of your bylaws, and also in terms of regulatory due process, making sure that folks are actually following the rules as they are written. 14th amendment deals with equal protection of the law, and that's just making sure that folks are all treated equally by the regulations themselves. You're not making arbitrary decisions that are not based on the regulations or reading parties differently. The main way that we explain the limits of what municipalities can do in terms of local zoning is through 24VSA 4412 and 4413. So I would direct you there if you want to get specific about what statute says and what you can do as a municipality. Next slide. Is that statute what determines the reasonable use of the property in the end, or is it the town plan? So adopting a zoning regulation would be the municipalities attempt at defining what reasonable use of property is. Yes. And then the court may, you know, if there's an appeal, but, you know, generally in Vermont, if you allow a camp or a single family home, that's deemed to be a reasonable use of property. You know, there are exceptions to that. There's a lot of case law around like flood plan and municipalities barring or prohibiting development in flood plan from a public safety perspective. And that's been generally upheld, you know, even at the Supreme Court level, national Supreme Court level. So the administrator is really the clearinghouse of all development applications in town. It might be a little bit different in a larger municipality like Essex. I think Catherine might get some as Community Development Director, but really the going small town Vermont, the zoning administrator is the one that's going to receive all the applications. And the zoning administrator is going to determine whether or not the application they received is administrative, that the ZA themselves has the authority to approve those applications, or if the application needs to go through a quasi-digital hearing process. It's typically pretty clear. You know, your bylaw itself is going to talk about what land uses can be approved administratively and what needs to be subject to a site plan application, a condition lease application, a subdivision application, etc. The ZA is the person that makes that decision. Administrative applications. Let's talk about single-family homes again. In most circumstances, those are administrative. ZA is going to take that zoning permit application to make sure that the home complies with setbacks, complies with either, you know, general regulations you may have. Wetlands coverage, lot coverage, building coverage, height, those sorts of things. They deem that the application complies with your rules. They're going to issue the zoning permit. If they deem it doesn't, they will deny the zoning permit. In the case of administrative applications, parties can appeal that decision and those appeals go to the DRB or the ZBA under your current model. With quasi-digital applications. And we'll talk about examples of that in a second. For those applications, the DRB reviews those applications. You guys have staff, so you guys have staff likely do a review of that application, provide a staff report to your DRB. DRB is the one that actually weighs the application against the rules and renders a decision. That written decision has to be in writing. Then can also be appealed. Other than that, it is issued or denied. That appeal is to the state environmental court. Any questions on the process? What are some examples of the cross-legged next slide? I think we'll go right there. All right. Yeah, we're going to go right there. It's going to take me a second to get there. I should have waited. It's all right. No, no, that's all right. That's just foreshadowing. So before I talk about that, exactly, I want to talk about land development. Land development is a definition in state statute. And it's this. And if you read this, it's everything. Everything is land development. You can regulate almost everything under zone. A lot of things you shouldn't regulate under zone. I think we can go talk about examples of that. But this definition is really broad. And I'd like to talk about this definition because I think it's really important to realize the breadth of power under zoning. And next time you're revising your regulations to look specifically at your exemption section. There are a lot of small things that probably meet the definition development that happen all the time that you may not regulate. We can pick on Milton because Catherine and I used to work in Milton. And so two things in Milton that always bug me was driveways and stups, access to homes. For this definition, both those things meet the definition development, literally. So me as ZA, I'm reading the rules and feel like I need to issue a permit. I have to issue a permit. What kind of tradition in Milton? They didn't issue permits for driveways. They didn't issue permits for stups. And so I should have put up more fight about that, but I was young. And so I just follow tradition. But the reality is, you know, those are driveways we can maybe argue about. But with students, just put them under the exemption section. Playgrounds. Another good example. We're technically developing. Does anyone really want to go through the process of permitting? Is it like a playground and someone's backyard? Probably not. Just exempt them. There's an exception to that, though. Because if you're talking about a playground, that might be a municipal playground. So now you're addressing impact by noise, by intrusion onto neighborhoods and so forth. So we've had a both. Okay. So I don't think you might have to clarify what the exemption is. Small accessory structures, small sheds. A lot of municipalities have exemptions for like 100 square foot sheds or smaller because it's a de minimis impact. So just look at that exemption section. Sorry. Ranto on that over. All right. So there's various different kinds of applications or types of review that can happen. The simplest type of review is a review of our permitted use. So this is back to the single family home again. Small accessory structures. This is a use type or a type of structure that can just be, that's permitted by right, essentially. As long as you comply with your setback rules and your general regulations, the CA can approve them because they're essentially established by right. Everything else on this list is an example of a quasi-judicial application. Start with conditional use. Actually, I'm going to talk about conditional use and site plan together as they often get conflated and I think they're actually very different. Conditional use review is supposed to review the use of the land, not the structure itself, but the use of the land and whether or not the use of that land is compatible with the surrounding neighborhood. It's about assessing a proposed use and how it fits within the context of the surrounding neighborhood. It's about the impact on everyone else. That's what conditional use is about. Site plan is about is internal. Site plan is about reviewing the physical site itself and how it is designed. It's not concerned with how it impacts the neighbors really. It's not concerned about traffic impacts really. It's concerned about where is the curb cut, where is the parking, is the parking wide enough, is there pedestrian access to the building, is there landscaping, is design of the site. A lot of municipalities use these two different application types interchangeably, but the criteria are really different. I think it's important to remember that. Both those applications go to the DRB. In our case, since we have the ZBA, the ZBA looks at conditional use. ZBA looks at conditional use, and then Planning Commission looks at site plan, which is inconvenient if you're an applicant. Variances. You should probably never issue a variance. A variance is a exception to a rule, essentially. In state statute, there are five different variance criterias, and they're written so strictly that it's basically impossible to meet them. I know if some of these pouties issue, though, but when I read those rules, they're so strict that there's really no way to get through that process from my perspective. But there is an alternative way to provide relief to property owners that are in a weird circumstance, and that's through a waiver. So a waiver is a process by which the DRB can grant an applicant relief from a certain standard under a specific condition. The easiest example is to use an example of a small lawn. Let's say you're in a zoning district where the minimum lot size is an acre, but you have a pre-existing lot that's only a core acre. Let's say your setback standard is 200 feet from the front setback. That might be hard to meet on a forefaker lot. 200 feet setback might be impossible. So this is an extreme example, but in this circumstance, you may have a specific waiver process in your rules that says you have an existing small lot in this district. We can reduce your setback by 100 feet, or by 50%, or by whatever. But you're talking about a specific condition with this specific relief that's enabled. You're giving the DRB tight rules to exist with it, not getting carte blanche, but you are allowing that property owner some relief under specific circumstances. So in that waiver situation, best practice would be to have the conditions under which you can prove a waiver specified in your regulations. For example, in our case, we have 50-foot buffers between properties in one of our industrial zones. There's an authority of the planning commission to waive that 50 feet with conditions. That's a good example. If it's specifically in there, it gives the authority to do that. We have 200-foot buffers too that are not allowed to be waived. This would come into play as well with the residential. We've got a lot of old stock residential. In many cases, the foundations are 30 to 35 feet from the road, but it doesn't meet any setback. So basically, without any waiver process, nobody can do anything in the front of their home. That may be something you want. It may be something you don't want. It's up to the municipality to decide. But that could be a circumstance where we're like, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Let's create a waiver process. Here's how I'll transition from that conversation. It's about if you have a lot of conditions in which you're like, we need to create a waiver. I think that's a telltale sign that you should have probably just reassessed your zoning period. Working with the town of Georgia a few years ago. We started down that track where we had, I don't know, three, four or five different kinds of waivers we were talking about just reduce setbacks in this district by five feet and it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change the character of the area. If you end up on that track where you're talking a lot of different waivers, maybe just write your zoning to better fit. What's the market's demanding or what fits the character of the area? We've got to be aware of the unintended consequences of reducing setbacks in areas. R1 zones where we have a larger, I mean, we get all of a sudden start seeing a huge increase in development where we aren't looking for it. There's a lot of moving parts to this. I do have 10 years I'm less scared of change, but I hear you. I get it. Whenever you're changing any rule, you've got to have those conversations about what those unintended consequences are. Go in with your eyes open, I guess is the suggestion. I'll talk about PUDs now and I'll talk about PUDs and subdivisions together. Ken's already heard my PUD rant. I'm going to kind of promise myself I won't do that tonight. We'll talk about it a little bit, but subdivisions and PUDs are both processes by which typically the property owner is dividing land, subdividing land into different pieces. Subdivisions is a traditional way to do it. You've got 100 acre tract of land, the minimum lot size in the district is one acre. You get 100 lots, give or take. You get some roads in there. You might get less, but that's generally what you get. So you're following the rules very strictly in terms of minimum lot size and you can divide land. PUD is a process by which you can divide land, but you can seek waivers from the DRB that allow for more flexible design. Typically those waivers are not as structured as the waivers we've already talked about. Typically they're a more carte blanche and typically they're baked into standards where it's like the point of the DRB it is, or the point of PUD is to have some land set aside for conservation, maybe at 50% of the original tract and just to kind of have compact development over here and to minimize road length, but the structure is pretty unstructured. In your rural areas this might be a good tool still to provide the property owner, but you're really allowing the property owner to drive the bus in terms of how things are designed and some municipalities like that, some municipalities may not, but you should go into that eyes wide open. It creates a situation where the DRB has to make a lot of decisions with not a lot of structure and a lot of DRBs don't like that. DRBs like to see the rules and implement the rules. PUDs, there's not a lot, there's not as many rules and so sorry I'm devolving in my rant, I'll stop. No you don't have to stop, this is all. I think PUD, sorry I'll do one other part of my rant, I'll lay off the rural areas. Rural areas they might still make sense, I can concede that. I think there's better ways to do it that you can kind of mix subdivision and PUDs in a more structured way. But in urban areas that's where I really think PUDs make no sense. In a lot of, I don't know about netistics, but in a lot of smaller Vermont municipalities they'll have rules that say if you're going to have more than one principal structure in a lot, you have to do PUD. That's a bummer from a couple different perspectives. One, PUDs typically are a three-step process, sketch, prelim, final process can take forever. Also you look at our historic downtown villages, historically oftentimes there's more than one principal structure in a lot. It happened historically and so we're creating this really difficult process to get through when we're also saying we want to kind of recreate what we have done historically. So you're also kind of going against the original intent of PUDs and state statute which is really about conserving open space for forestry, for conservation. So in urban areas I don't think PUDs really make any sense. I just think you need to rethink your zoning. First off just allow more one principal structure in a lot or allow it through some sort of simplified waiver process in one step and under certain conditions. So yeah, stop there. Any questions on PUDs? We struggle with PUDs we have and it's been one of our hot topics for our revisions. One of the most recent times that it came up, well we often feel like it is an attempt in some areas by an applicant to circumvent the rules. So that I think is clear. But it's also looking there are times when we're trying to see if we can use it to enable something such as tiny homes because we worry about the banner of spot zoning. So we don't want to necessarily change all of our one or our two zoning across the board when it might make sense for certain areas and certain parcels to be able to support tiny homes somehow. But that's where we're looking at PUDs as being an enabler instead of something to be a way to bypass rules and regulations. So I mean it's an ongoing debate has been an ongoing debate in the planning commission for quite some time. Thank you. There may be ways to rewrite those rules in a way that allow for multiple principal structures on one lot or lots, certain sizes. That's one way you can do it if you can't do it in certain circumstances you want to prevent it. You can get more specific. But one other thing I'll add is that PUDs are nightmares for staff because typically PUDs have like eight billion missions on them and waivers from all these different lots and building envelopes and to track those things over time, really hard, really complicated, giant time solve. I can think of some PUDs in North and Denver like six years old and we were in like the 11th amendment and like it's impossible to understand what's going on. I mean Catherine and I had like giant spreadsheets trying to figure out what conditions are still applying. It can get really hard and you don't typically have that work with more conventional submissions. It's usually much more cut and run. Any other questions on types of developer? So one other small rant I'll go on but if anyone has questions it's about conditional use. I don't know about Essex. I don't know your rules very well. So you know only three years back in Shitton County after being up at Northwest Franklin County. But I think conditional use in Vermont generally gets overused. I think a lot of municipalities work hard on conditional use for things like retail like in their downtowns, which is you want to promote that are typical of a downtown and from my perspective that's a bit of over regulation. Still going to have the site plan reviewed, typically. Still going to go to the DRV. You're still going to make sure the site's designed well but that's the kind of use you want to see in your downtowns. Same with like restaurants to see that on the small town. Just don't think it's needed. There's no other questions we can put in the next slide. So when the DRV does make a decision, it must be in writing and it has to contain two things. Finding some fact and conclusions of law. Finding a fact is easiest way to talk about this is through giving an example. A fact is that the application is for development at 50 Main Street. That the parcel is located in the R1 zoning district. That is a fact. A conclusion of law talks about how the application implies with the bylaw. So the conclusion would be that the applicant specific setback that complies with the minimum setback standard of 75. Got to base your decisions on the bylaw itself. Nothing else. Not your feelings. It's about what the bylaw says. Minutes may suffice as a decision. Don't do that. Don't do that. You guys do written decisions with conditions. That's a much better structure for a larger municipality. You don't have to reveal how the the board itself voted in terms of individual members. You just have to memorialize and concurrence the majority. You guys have the seven member board PC. So four voted in favor of something for three. Big point I want to stress is that, you know, DRV, I'll just say DRV for the sake of gravity, you don't have to make the same, you don't have to make a decision on the application the same night that you hear the applicant. You do not. And I think we're going to talk about process a little bit, but you can always continue hearing to learn it in time if you need additional evidence. That's really important tool in the DRV. You need to issue a decision 45 days after the close of the hearing. And there's a 30 day field period after that. Here in Essex, I imagine staffs responsible for writing decisions and DRV is kind of reviews it, make sure it works. We generally will craft it with staff during the meeting and then staff will do the final preparation. Yeah, it's based largely on the staff report that staff is prepared. But then the point of commission will add additional findings or... So the within 45 days is triggered by the end of any hearing, whether it's continued or not? Correct, yeah. It's not from date of submission. It's from closing of final close of hearing. Final public hearing. Public hearing. So if the public hearing is open, the clock doesn't start. And it's the point we often make that if we continue, we frequently will not close the public hearing until we're ready to either do a final deliberative or make a decision. So we'll keep the public hearing open so that we can start. Okay. We'll talk more process in a bit too. Next slide. I hear a question about that. So you can leave a public hearing open when there's no meeting in progress? Essentially continue with the next meeting. Forever? Ethan, this is a question I always get. There is no limit in statute. Okay. I'll make sure I was hearing that right. Oh no, you're hearing that right. There is that statute doesn't say you can't continue past 120 days. There's no limit on that back side. And that's, you know, property owners get a little jittery about that. Has that ever been brought to court? I don't know of any case law about that. I'm sure it has. And I think a property owner would have a pretty easy... I think if a property owner brought in a junction after a year, you know, they'd have a pretty easy case and they'd probably some sort of mediated cell. Then the DRB would make a decision before it even went to court or something like that. But, but yeah, no, there is no limit outlined in the statute. All right. We've already talked about it feels a bit, but decisions of ZA, the administrative officer, that goes to the DRB. Any decisions of the DRB, that's appealed to the environmental court. Any appeals of the environmental court decision go to the state Supreme Court. Next slide. Maybe only interested persons can appeal. Not just anyone. And so the statute outlines specifically who are interested in persons. The applicant, town, the representative of the select board. Property owners in the immediate neighborhood. That's not just the butters. Immediate neighborhood, which is not defined. I was going to ask you how will they define the immediate neighborhood. Not defined. The court will make a decision whether or not someone is in the immediate neighborhood. Any petition of 10 persons. That might be coming out. That's you for what's the last version of housing bill. I saw the state DCCD. And you have to participate at the DRB level, either through written testimony or through verbal testimony in order to maintain your status as. You can't not go to the DRB or issued or provide testimony to the DRB then appeal the decision like you have to establish yourself in the DRB. Process in order to appeal to the environmental. So dear, dear bees can. As a part of their process. Who is an interested person. As a part of their public hearing. Most of most just allow anyone to talk if they want to talk. And they let the court make that decision later about whether or not someone truly is interested party and truly have a good place. There are some dear bees that that do decide. Really your press for preference and attorney. I think it's easier just to let everyone talk. Only talk to their five and limit or whatever you have. And kind of defer that decision on whether or not they're truly in party or not. So you can't just attend the meeting. You can't just be a participant in the meeting. You need to actually speak on an individual application. Good catch on your part. You can attend the meeting and sign in. And I think that is sufficient in order to establish your right. Not need to guess. Technically provide verbal. Thank you. I got a brain picker for it. If a large group in our case of the town. Got together petition and petition the slack board to appeal. They would do it on itself. They would petition the slack. Or they would. They would. What could that. A group of 10 persons or more. Well ours is like. I forget what it is 15. Yeah 15 percent registered voters. I'm just curious. And I don't know if this has ever even happened. Could you get the 15 percent to petition the slack board to appeal. You just need 10 people to appeal to the. A yearly decision. That's the main remote. To the environmental court. So two things. So the 15 percent rule that you're talking about. And I'm going to take away the percentage percent. In the statute that talks about adoption of town plan. And in the statute that talks about adoption of stoning bylaws. Both those sections talk about X percentage. Of. Counts of voters. Can petition. To. After selected option. Let's say. Bring those documents to. Voters. That's one thing. In this. And so that's that's kind of like a legislative petition. This is a quasi judicial petition. And so it's a petition not to the select work. It's a petition to the D.R.V. Essentially saying. We've got 10 or more of us were now interested party. Party as a part of this specific application. And they they can establish those rights to the D.R.V. And therefore then appeal to the court. Does that make sense. Yeah. But you said that that's going to be removed. All right. Right in a right fall. Two of inversions to house. Right. Right. It's said though. And they said there's a house bill. In the house bill that's that has been removed. And actually now it says like one person. Have to meet a grief person. Then there's a definition to an agreed person. And another piece of statute. I don't know enough to tell you more than that. But I do know that a 10 person. Number is gone. Yeah. I was just more of a question to. Any petition brought to the select board. By the by the people of Essex. Could they ask the select board to appeal. Something. A planning commission decision. They would have to go to the environmental court. Because the court has. The board does not say and whether something. Well we can. Well it says you can appeal. This the select board. The municipality can choose to appeal something. Right. Right. But then but then we would be appealing something that our our own. Planning commission decided. Right. And there is no there's no section of statute. That covers that. If select board receives a petition to that number of voters. It shall appeal. A DRP decision or a PC decision. That doesn't. And so what he was referring to before. Is if we approve a zoning regulation. Petition to have us have that. Doning regulation. Proof by. Voters rather than just the select. That's what that's what can be. Yeah. I get that. I understand that section. I was just curious to our charter that says. Any petition brought forth shall be. Our charter doesn't say anything about that petition. That's a statute. You can petition but it's typically more around. Starting an ordinance. That's ordinance. Having a vote. Okay. So it's clear in there that doesn't. Supplies the ordinance. Certain things. Right. These are not ordinances. Is this. Any. Why did you do this decision? Personally. I was just curious about how that correlated with the charter. Okay. Yeah. And you said earlier that the select board is involved in an appeal. Because likely we're paying for the lawyer on the. The. Yes. Yes. And so let's talk with that for a second. You know. Select boards typically get nervous about. Fields. I think you need to. Really. You guys just decide how much you want to interact with the court process. You know. A property or could appeal a DRB decision to the court. And you guys just feel like all right. Good luck. See you. Not spending time. You don't you don't have to interact with the process. There's some statutory requirements for staff in terms of providing information. The applicant providing information to the court. But you don't have to actively defend. A decision. Equal. It is really up to the select board. Hopefully in consultation with the DRB and with staff. But yeah. Yeah. You know. I'll use an example with active 50. You know. But RPCs are parties to all active 50s. And so you know a recent appeal in South Burlington. And you know we just didn't decide to actively defend our decision. Equal. All we did is our attorney. Can you just monitor what's happening? Just tell us down the line as different motions are filed. If we should become a more active participant. And so that can also limit your expense. And just you know monitoring proceedings. So just just want to note that because he isn't like you get an appeal. And all of a sudden you're in the in the tank for $30,000. Because someone appealed to you does not have to. Think on the next slide. It's been a while. All right. So sorry. Go ahead. I was going to talk about your notes. Okay. I was going to just make a question and comment about appeals. Try to draw on my knowledge, which is a little bit fuzzy. But if there's an appeal, a lot of times it's based on. Project being approved or not approved based on the regulations. And my understanding of memory is that if you have pretty clear regulations. And a project was denied or approved based on those regulations. The appeal, the PRB, the planning commission, the select board has pretty good shot to win in court. J.M. Gulf is the famous case I always remember hearing. And I think it was, I think it was herself. And I think that the. Still being appealed in this. Oh, is it really different actions on PUD actually. But my memory is that the city lost the appeal in that case. And it's because there were not clear standards. They had denied a project based on some kind of vague standards in the town plan. And so. The gist of that case is essentially is that the city had vague environmental protection standards. And the DRV did what they could with those standards and made a decision. But the court found essentially those standards were not specific enough to Lucy Goosey. And, and to remanded the case. I believe that. Okay. So the message and takeaways basically the clear your standards, the safer you are, the better you are, the more likely. And, you know, the good thing with appeal is that you guys are not on on the record. Right. You guys have not. Right. So all appeals from from the town of Essex would be DeNovo at E court. And so that all that means is that all the evidence gathering starts all over again. And some municipalities have adopted something called the MAPA, the municipal administrative procedures act. Shelburne is one, Shelburne is actually going to repeal it. And essentially what MAPA does is it creates a much more structured for evidence taking at that local level. It requires like transcriptive proceedings. It's much more structured and at the DRV level. Some municipalities like that because when they go to appeal, that entire record goes with the appeal. So appeals can be adjudicated faster and the E court takes directly into consideration everything that happened with the local law. I don't know if there's really pros and cons to, I don't know, you want to consider about changing your process. MAPA is hard to get a paper transcriber or it can be expensive and things may work fine as they are already. But I just want to note that one difference. Zoning, this document is only for great neighborhoods. A man of collaboration with DCCD, the Vermont Realtors Association, ERPCs. Who else? A bunch of folks involved. ARP. ARP was the big one, actually big one, you're right. And this document was developed by the Congress for new urbanism. And it looked at municipal zoning on a bunch of sizes and scales in Vermont. Looked at case studies, Fairfax was community I was working with at the time. And looked at how we're doing zoning in Vermont. Looked at national best practices and provided a pretty good menu of options of how municipalities can quite size their zone better fit. Specifically like neighborhood and village contexts. This guy's awesome. If you hire a consultant, they're probably going to send you a guide. So if your staff's writing zoning or rewriting zoning with the funding commission I advise you guys to offer a specific document source. Non-regulatory implementation. So we talked a bunch about rules and to talk a lot about rules. There's a lot of different ways to implement your plan that are rules that are more fun. One way you guys do that here is through capital budgeting. And the plan probably talks a lot about like municipal facilities. But you know, police department capacity, fire department capacity, what you need for public works equipment. Capital budget is the way that you implement your plan. You're creating rules, but you're doing budget. Skip. I'm going to come back to tax stabilization contracts. Purchase development. Purchase or acceptance of bumper rights. Some municipalities have something called the transfer development system. Or essentially you can sell development rights in a rural area and send them to a more urban area. And so developer in the urban area officially gets a bonus. Don't recommend this on a small scale. You guys are still pretty small even though you're over 10,000. These are difficult systems to implement. I think they should implement probably more on a county-wide basis or statewide basis, but you're unable to do that. A South Burlington does this, Stota does this. It might be the only two in the state. The big way you implement your plan in a non-regulatory way is through supporting plans. The scoping studies for sidewalks, master plans for sidewalks, ETC NEXT, you know, anything where you're not creating rules, but you're studying how to refine your planning down from the comprehensive scale, down plan into something more specific over a smaller geographic area or a smaller topic area. Other projects and studies, you know, that might be doing a demonstration project for how you want to redo a street section, work a local motion, get some hay bales out, get some paint out, and figure out if, you know, you wanted to redesign that street section or bump out some sidewalk and plantaste, those sorts of things. You know, you know, doing educational things with the school, those sorts of are fun ways to do non-regulatory planning. No one really talks about tax stabilization contracts, but that is actually a story of select work, guys, into contracts with property owners. You guys do that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. You know, to incentivize certain things you want to see done. Typically, I see municipalities do that for like economic development reasons. Um, helpful resource. We have a funding opportunities database on our website that is a giant list of brand opportunities specific for municipalities process, huge array of topics from land use, water sewer, the whole shebang. So if you haven't looked at that, I encourage you to go up there. Skip right past this, Catherine. Yeah. We're going to, that was from, that was from new planner training. I mean, I talk about that. Uh, in terms of implementing this plan, this resource is really dated. It's on vpick.info from our planners information center is an implementation manual. Talk about all different ways you can plan. It's from 2007, but it's a great resource. All right. So we're through the first three modules. Now we're going to talk about meeting series and due process. I think you guys probably know the deal here. So I'll move quickly. So in meeting, it's whenever you have a forum of a body. You're going to wait for four today for the planning commission. Hearings happen within meetings. There's two different kinds of hearings. There's legislative hearings and there's quasi-divisional hearings. Legislative hearings are held by the planning commission, by the select board. And they're about receiving the whole point of them is to receive public comment on some sort of public document. Town plan are zoning by a lot typically. Quasi-divisional hearings are about specific development applications. Where the DRB is essentially acting as a corp to ensure that the rules are followed. And the point of that hearing is to receive public comment, or sorry, comment from interested parties and from the applicant to ensure the application complies with any questions on meeting versus hearings. Basics of open meeting law, gotta have advanced notice. We'll talk in the next slide about timing on that. But agenda before the meeting at the municipal office, to their locations in town. Website if you have one. In a meeting you have to allow at least one opportunity for the public to participate in the meeting. Typically that's the public comment right off the top of the agenda. Make minutes available within five days and address any complaints to receive about violating. ELCT has a great resource on open meeting law if you want to brush up. Here's public notice. Regular meeting 48 hours. Supposing two places besides the town office. Legislative hearings for plans and for bylaw amendments. Actually plans I believe it's 30 days, not 15. But for regulations it's 15 with an error there. But you also need to warn that hearing in the newspaper record. I don't know if you guys do your local paper, ask your reporter if you do the free press or seven days or what you do. But you've got to be in one of those. You also need to do certified mailings to specific parties. And so specific parties with legislative hearings typically are PC chairs of adjoining municipalities, ERPC, state HCE commerce community development. Plaza judicial hearings. Warnings for Plaza judicial. The state statute they vary from seven days or 15 days depending on application time. Do you guys vary in your local rules as well? Or do you guys just do 15 days for everything? I think we vary. Very. So seven days probably for site plan and maybe sketch plan and subdivision. I think our consent agenda is seven, anything else? 50. It's there's a historical context for it. I'm interested to hear more at a later date. Some of us keep it simple and just say every D.R.B. application is going to be 15 days. New state for a record three or more places. Not two, three. Why is there a difference here? I'm not sure. It's just the state statute. You have to mail notice to applicant and then to a joint. So here's that weird difference where like you can be interested party if you live in a general neighborhood. Only the direct adjoiners get notice. Again, not sure why that's different. There also needs to be posting on site on the actual property within view of the public right of way. Doesn't matter if you live way up a driveway. You got to have the posting within view of the public right. Any questions on notes? I had to mend the flow a little bit because you guys have a little different flow here in it. Here I'm kind of replicating how the D.R.B. how a D.R.B. hearing should be a flow in it. Chair opens the hearing. Staff doesn't overdo a staff report. Board members ask staff questions. Applicant addresses questions. Board members ask questions of the applicant in terms of how the application performs or does not perform with rules. Then there's a time for comment of interest parties with the general public and allow the general public to speak. And then EC staff applicant addresses public comments. EC deliberates. It sounds like you guys deliberate in public and private. And then PC works on the written decision in deliberate session but in private. Sounds like an Essex staff finalist decision and then EC signs. A couple things around the flow. You know one you don't have to deliberate in private or sorry in public you can deliberate in private. That's fine. I don't see any you're certainly allowed by the rules to do it. I think it's actually good practice particularly with like the controversial applications. Private, juries do that all the time. So I wanted to note that. I also wanted to note that really important that that you know that to enter into deliberative session you have to close the public hearing. So that starts your clock, right? That starts your 45 day period. And so before closing that public hearing I think it's really important for the board chair to ask the question, do we have enough evidence to close this hearing? Or not? Should we continue it to another date and time and then ask for other evidence before we render our decision? It's important that they do that because juries are not really supposed to reopen the hearing. You know not best practice to do that or you can do that if like new evidence comes to light or through reconsideration again not a lawyer but generally best practice keep the hearing open until you know you have all the evidence you need in order to make a decision. It's a process simple that way. I would say we probably have used a deliberative session maybe half a dozen time in the last half a dozen years. And it's primarily it's an open forum and we often will continue if there isn't enough information either missing information is missing or we often will give the applicant an opportunity to request a continuance because they may they want to have they want to change something they can work with staff on that but it's deliberative sessions are very very infertily used. They are used but it's primarily I would say when it's a a very contentious and potentially argumentative situation. Yeah and I mean you can always you know deliberate or talk not in deliberative session before you clap so you have conversations before you close the hearing. So there was mention of consent agenda something is on consent how would members of the public be able to hear from hear about or give input on something. I have my answer but I'm the staff. Well let me let me take a swing at it at least in the within the planning commission we do a consent agenda within the public comment section we open that up for questions from even the planning commissioners about anything to do with the consent agenda items it's members of the public members of staff and the planning commission we use that public forum to have a discussion on the consent agenda so that when we get to the consent agenda item we'll know that we can either move on it or we have to take it off from consent agenda. Usually right after the public when we do the consent agenda. I'm not I mean I've sat on a planning commission and the ZBA I did attend a meeting where there was an application on the consent agenda it wasn't clear to me that that's the case so I'm curious whether members of the public also have that confusion around like the time to comment on that consent agenda item is during public to be heard. Well there's a member of the public who's attended number so I would defer to to if you want to take that comment from her or I can swing it. I'm fine I'm just I'm I'm just giving some feedback that sometimes that's not always clear. Okay I guess I had a different experience than that. Yeah and that's that's actually written into their operating procedures the your operating procedure specifically says if a consent agenda item is to be brought out we should be mentioned during public to be heard so that it can be brought into the business. And I'll remember all the budding landowners get notice that that that is on the consent agenda so just like any other application we do notify everybody that's required. It's curious is your consent agenda just like minor obligations or what yeah yes it would be a like a small boundary adjustment. Yeah it's when there might not be clarity or when there might be for example as in an earlier situation when there was work to be done on a public ballpark facility within a public field that drove the whole consent agenda item because it was not brought to the commission yet there were members of the public and even the commissioners who thought that it should have been elevated in its level of review so it was brought in that sort of was the trigger for future developments like that which are not a hundred percent clear either the zoning minister has a question or staff other staff might have a question about it as well so it's another layer we don't use it as often as we did for a while we're not seeing consent items come in which isn't is good because it is confusing it's confusing for the commissioners as well if they have questions and what do we do when it we feel it rises to the level of questions and we might need to change the staff report then we have to pull it off from consent yeah and that then if we met the requirements for a warning and if not we need to advance we need to continue to a later date yeah that's what you do you continue it to a later date because it's it's we don't want to have that level of if it's not clear it comes off consent agenda and it becomes a future review yeah interesting approach at the end I don't think it's long anyway um yeah um I'm sorry I just had to ask a question about something that I had heard but did you say that sometimes when there's comments from something about the consent agenda you move it to a business item after the agenda is approved it would be it would be moved to be removed from the consent agenda so if we have two or three is consent agenda items just remove it to future business it would be it would become an application and it would be continued so that it can meet requirements for warning and staff reports this consent agenda items don't generally have as complex as staff report as a regular application would and they're not meant to be edited right it's a decision that's been prepared for the planning commission the simplest the simple point is if it doesn't if there are questions either from the audience or members of the public or commissioners or staff that require a further modification to what we already have in front of us it comes off from it comes off from the consent agenda just it's just removed it's not brought to business that meeting it is addressed because it is on the agenda but it's continued at that point and I would have to pull out the operating procedures to see what it is but we don't you wouldn't make a decision that night no because that was the only thing I was curious about when I heard that because you know you can't obviously you know but you can't move that to business and act on business from something that's in the consent without after approving the agenda would be my comment because I would say that our agenda is is we modify the agenda during the meeting if we need to for the flow not adding and subtracting items but that consent agenda item is on the agenda all the context is there but we don't act on it if it can't be if it can be moved as a consent agenda item it's a continued item for a future date okay just wanted to add in those couple words because the way it sounded the first time was it was moved to business and there might have been confusion and again we'd have to be pulled out I don't have the procedures memorized so we'd have to look and see what what the the context is but I believe it's there's some I don't know if there's if it's called out that much or not and but if nobody has any questions though it could be approved as part of consent and then it would be correct without any discussion correct and that's and that's basically it is it during the public comment again it's during the public comment because it's a consent agenda if during the public comment there is no questions when we go to the to the consent agenda on the agenda we take a motion to either move if there's a number of them we may move them separately but we would move the consent agenda for approval okay it's an imperfect tool but no it's it's interesting yeah it's an imperfect tool by doing it right given the way that you're doing it um and as long as you're clear of those all things the LA is fine um anything else on flow so this uh number uh six here has a party slash public yeah what's the difference there if you're it's parties if your DRB is making a decision on who is interested party or not or it's just general public DRB is not going to make a decision on whether or not someone is party at DRB I'm not sure I followed that you can let everyone talk yep and not and not actually establish on a on a person by person basis whether or not someone's interested party okay that's the public part okay or a DRB could okay so if someone does speak as a member of the public the environmental court later could determine whether or not that individual was interested party and whether or not their testimony is admissible correct whether they're concerned or they have appeal right or whether they have appeal rights or whatever it is okay okay okay that's it thank you another questions on the floor here so um we're not we're not going to public public questions yet so we'll you can come back I I okay sorry yes this is it yeah it's the opening of quasi judicial here opening of quasi judicial get me to try to share my screen sure what about you have it's like 33 it was plain so yeah the opening of the hearing itself uh chair is going to review the order of events like we just reviewed on the last slide remind folks the importance of order your folks have copies of that rules of procedure and code of ethics that we've already talked about if you want you can review that definition of interested parties minister no it sounds like you guys administer the oak up top everything that's okay too um and your request for members disclose any policy interests or x part k communication that they've aged in um any questions there is one one comment on the rules of procedure and ethics policies statute gives the planning commission the authority to generate their own rules and ethics policy so a select board conflict of interest policy does not necessarily apply to planning commission because they have by statute right to establish their own Dr. John I mean I statute says they shall establish and so they should affirmatively make a decision so I'm with yandy I think because I'm staying saying this out loud because people have asked don't aren't they don't they have to follow your conflict of interest policies and no they have their own they have to adopt that's what statute they may choose to adopt the select boards also but correct they may also choose to do something else and the select board can't tell them which one to which correct shall the questions uh good board chairs are difficult to come by um and a good board chair shouldn't do a lot of talking um should state questions they should move the business along um ask for discussion typically without creating their own opinions they can if they needed um but they should definitely and most are trying to bring the board of resolution focusing motions asking questions asking if we have enough out of it asking if we need more evidence on x asking if we're ready to enter in the lower session really the organizer of the board should this is just for all the small townsings um any questions on the role of board chair everyone else listen to the testimony ask questions have your regulations there if they're ready so you can refer to them roll f I like to have my computer in front of me so I can control f for terms try to find terms in the regulations um no other way to be in planning and zoning without using control app um you're supposed to make sure that your decisions are based on evidence don't prejudge a matter um or talk about the case in public any questions on board rules talk about deliberative session a bit already it's an open meeting law you don't have to keep minutes public or private whatever you want you don't have to reveal how you voted 45 days um after you enter it 45 days to achieve the decision um if it's there isn't a written decision after 45 days deemed approved it'll be an applicant has to go to the e-court to get something deemed approved happened by magic um what else should I say technically you're in deliberative session until the written decisions remain aware of that um so I mean you can already vote but technically you are still in deliberative session until there is a signed so that that gives us there's been an opportunity it's an opportunity for discussion a little bit because we've had infusion on number one do we have to close the public hearing we did should we uh can we take minutes this is this looks like it's an optional um thing and we're in private deliberative session you do not have to take minutes you're in public I would say that you would have what's the difference between the public public is when we're not entertaining motions public and private is when you literally public is when there's public in the room and private okay private is or when the public is so so that's our that's that would be our normal once we've closed the public hearing and we deliberate that's a public deliberative set but we're not entering into a uh we're not calling it a deliberative session per se we are deliberate private deliberative session we've had one we've had a couple things number one we've been operating under the assumption that we cannot take minutes right so that that's okay that's the difference there private no minutes right okay I'm good with that then believe we'll stop there and the one thing I'd say too is when you you know ideally you know when you're making the motion it's on a deliberate session you're saying like we're going to go to the session and we're going to bring staff we're going to bring yep people with us too but I just think that's important just so there's transparency about who's actually in the room it's a lot easier not to go into a private deliberative session but frank it's oh yeah I mean don't if you don't have to but don't be scared to if you have to that's kind of the general rule that doesn't have to be on the agenda um deliberate session should be on the agenda as a separate item right so it's not on the agenda you cannot go into um I would yeah okay it has to be separate agenda just like you guys would have yeah for executive session yeah same thing yeah I was just a little confused with the wording there says no requirements for notice I just wanted to make sure that people understood that they still have to have it on the agenda if they plan to have the possibility to go into deliberative session good catch so let's talk about so not attorney but right so so um when there may be a condition and I wouldn't advise doing this like as a as a best practice but there might be a condition where um you have a DRB meeting so you have a DRB agenda you have your applications and you have deliberative session as a separate agenda item and um for whatever reason um let's say the DRB doesn't finish deliberations then the DRB needs to meet again to continue deliberation maybe the next day and so in that circumstance because they just not a public meeting um not a meeting that's taking place and it remains in private like and this is a circumstance of private deliberation in that circumstance the DRB could convene again not hold a meeting and continue deliberations in private let's say the next day or the next week without giving notice that could happen again I don't think that's a good idea I think you should do an agenda but my understanding is that they could thread that needle if they needed to that makes sense yeah I was just focusing more on for the public if they're listening to us that you know if the if there's to be a deliberative session it needs to be on the agenda before the meeting is it is open right that's an interesting twist which would mean we would need to start putting a placeholder for deliberative session on our agenda routinely as we we've used it routinely as a resultant of public deliberation mm-hmm and it's usually has been a motion by a board member to go into deliberative session you know put on your agenda just like slight work for this exact session just in case so noted all right yeah because I don't know like I've read the Robert's rule book a couple times boys going to the blackboard but I don't know exactly how it's worded but when I was just reading through this presentation I sparked my mind that you know for the select board it's absolutely 100% mandatory to get on the agenda if you even plan to go into executive session yep I didn't know if deliberative session and like I said it could be boarding difference I'm definitely not an attorney so but it just sparked in my mind when I was reading that put it on there no it hasn't been to date it hasn't been a planned event so it it would make sense to put a placeholder on there we don't go into executive session hardly hardly hardly ever and that's always on the agenda so you're right wrap up there where do you want to get back already oh I was just trying to help the camera and just let me put your screen off stage no no no I'm trying to do conflict of interest if they're hard to avoid sometimes especially in the small town Vermont but your code of ethics should talk about what conflict of interests are financial interests are pretty easy to understand personal interests in common in small towns where you know you're you're going to have cousins you know one of the DRB one submitting application to to build something and that happens and probably recuse yourself because personal interests um no bias or prejudice again really small town Vermont you know you got someone on the board and someone that went to school with they everyone knows that had they have hated each other for you know 12 years um that's no bias um you should probably recuse yourself um expert communication is is really about you know discussing the the facts of the case outside of the area itself not that legal you shouldn't do it because of the last little quote there which is you know precious is really hard to come by and in case a second destroy it and so and it takes forever to build it so try not to talk about facts of the case or a case really at all outside any questions i'll call okay moving on adopt rules sheet your code of ethics um refuse oneself liberally um use alternates definitely use alternates um with alternates too like some some DRBs are like always alternates always come allow alternates to to ask questions just like a normal number they just don't bow some DRBs only like to have the five DRB members up there if they're the only ones that can ask questions it's up to you just having your rules procedures about how you want the alternates to interact with the hearings um so something that we recently just discovered is that because the our model now with the planning commission and the zba the planning commission can have an alternate because of they're doing that yes but once we switch over to the pc drb a model the pc can correct any other questions i think this is it maybe oh there's one more slide uh few process uh just all about public notice all about allowing people to be heard about having orderly proceeding of properly managing evidence and all sorts of things um making sure you're following your own rules and uh as a part of the process process can be appealed to um that's messy because then he court just remits it back to you and you gotta do it over again that's a waste of everyone's time i'll i already said it yeah vpx vpx.info orderly stuff there um an example rules cheater or at foot of ethics um it's on vpx also blc t as a really model um and for staff planning a bylaw adoption tool up there make sure you follow the right process i think that is it okay any board member questions i guess from either board i just had one more little clarification so s6 doesn't have alternates for the planning commission we do have one and in practice when the alternate was was here um i would have them at the table regardless of whether or not they were a voting member that night it just seems like a good thing well it makes sense if they want to sit in on a call in an application later to have knowledge of what's been going on and technically they are a planning commissioner the non-voting one so their input is also valuable thank you so he thinks gotta have something he thinks gotta have something uh he can't be done yet i have a question but it's gonna wait for after i have no so i do have a question we have multiple state highways that go through our town um we don't have a lot of jurisdiction over in your your your recommending that we look at this planning for great neighborhoods in some situations those state highways make it difficult to do that just a couple things uh right now we're doing a pilot study with the town of wilson um that pilot study is looking at the cost-benefit ratio of last one time i was it's building off a white paper that was that was written by v trans like this over a few years ago and we're trying to kind of uh take a look at the numbers again in terms of what the true cost is of maintaining up off one time i went for v trans um and looking at uh how we can provide more of a carrot some municipalities um to entice them to take over the highways either in terms of control over what happens on the roads themselves or um process things related to like improvements the road by v trans before we can take some over or just in terms of like money um and talking about i'm looking at the formula used in terms of uh town highway aid for class one town highways so we've got like draft report right now php's work on it with the town of wilson we're we're managing it and for it so i can share that with the folks when that's done um but that talks about taking them over talks about taking them over you can't do things that would impede traffic flow of imagine if you don't take them over if you do take them over you got a lot more i mean if you take them over i mean you got control and design not total control in the white paper it talks there's a nice little chart in the white paper that talks about you know if you do can take control of here the things that you do and that you're responsible for um and if you don't have control of here's the things v trans does and i think you know if you take control of a class on town highway um you're in control of most things um the only thing that v trans will really do for you is like a resurface i think or sorry they're in charge of reconstruction still maybe resurfacing every couple of years you don't do the striking for you but everything else i think you're pretty much in control of um you'd have to design the road that you're doing like bump outs or like that still you'd have to i think get v trans approval um like meet some sort of basic standard that may they have buried in some manual somewhere but you could do it unlike when they're highway so so if we're we're asked to do things that would reduce the number of trucks that go on a specific road i think that might be some rejection from others that's by whom to reduce the number of trucks that go on by residents who live in the neighborhoods that are affected by i mean you can be asked by residents to reduce the volume on certain roads that you don't have control over who drives the right you can influence who wants to drive on those roads that make it difficult to ride out of drive but you don't have control of sides like your load limits but on the highway i mean they're going to be built all the way that explains the roundabouts well yeah i mean um not all of them a lot of them are safe that's why they're really small a lot of them are safe um the smaller ones are usually this but yes i mean it's i don't know v trans yeah wants to give you the road they want to figure out what the price is really um and tell you i mean just how is to have them i mean some love it and some hate it it depends on how much they value control i say all of the city loves it they've got full control right downtown but you're talking just for falls and they're like yeah they have full control but it costs us a $18 that's segment of road and and the formula doesn't give us in terms of so it depends on what you value did melton take over part of the route seven quarter or did they have it they just did the sidewalk right now that can you sidewalks and that was a big change the trees yeah i grew up melton i was a little offended earlier but yeah i'm working on a project right now i bring with you don't uh uh wait that's been there for 32 years right but that's the same issue in milton i talked to don last week and he's like we're gonna do this downtown project and he's like well we're never gonna have the downtown face bird setup because we have no control over it and cost of the west never gonna make sense we're gonna have a downtown we've got to do it on a local road we know we have control over what that road looks like we know we have control over sidewalk width um so yeah in in shitton county i think you know it's when news feeds burlington stop burlington on part of part of two um not on seven um that's ex-junction that he does yeah ex-junction does whole chest around 127 i think that's it i think everywhere else let's go away from roads for a minute if you're good yeah so we talked you you mentioned a couple things that you know the town plan is that is an enabler for language for regulations and and so forth um and not to be afraid of you know if you need to do a lot of waivers then not to be afraid of changing zoning and so forth and that starts giving me you know like goosebumps not not good goosebumps but you know it takes so long to get a town plan update done that it's always a challenge to do the enabling language so we've actually started this year better than eight years past especially since we're mostly electronic distribution of stuff is to try to do smaller bites of regulations and get them to the select board to get them implemented but at the same time changing a zoning map has all those intended consequences are a lot more scary um so when we start talking about trying to accommodate tiny how tight i could say tiny houses because it's been a hot topic of late we don't want to have somebody putting a tiny house in a quarter ache a lot as a second item in a quarter ache a lot um when it's just gonna be a mess for the neighbors immediately adjacent so i mean there's all this stuff going on and we can't i say you say we can't it's a big step that first step is a big step to start thinking about changing the overall zoning map and to start thinking about making smaller areas for zones all of a sudden the the specter of spot zoning looms and it becomes the big ugly um so it's um it's daunting to look at the the the overall but that's a way of planers for it's yeah all right so it's your staff's work i think it's daunting but you know the map's the hardest part you know i think there's plenty of things for any you can do in the language meaningful impact especially because you can read district standards well i remember how long it took us to do etc next yeah i mean that was not quite easy process i mean yeah um and i think you know the the approach you took with etc next to the answering on specific geographic areas so just like taking the whole map full hog or you know kind of doing sub-area plans um look at like what's burlington and talk about burlington anywhere else besides burlington but you know burlington's doing doing uh you know btv south end btv waterfront btv you know new north end they're they're kind of doing these neighborhood-based plans and that's really where they're getting down any gritty of how they want to change their zoning really non-regulatory things to looking at transportation looking at it's free to not the comp plan itself they're going down the neighborhood level and talking to people in those neighborhoods such as city um so i think etc next is kind of the right approach you should say if you bring that to other suzi walls an area or that sort of two other things real quick number one i like what you just said about planning takes time and i think you know your point of calling stuff out this is not a quick process you mean i've been doing this for a while and that it is not a quick cycle town plan updates are not something we're just going to knock off in a few months i mean it's just it's not that quick um and i had another thing but i could lost it so i'm gonna have to shut up now i had two honest well good board chair supposed to move the meeting on to the area so so i was just gonna ask if there's any other board questions either for taylor or for the other board either side i just want are there any communities that basically update their town plan yearly so that they don't have to wait and go through a whole process of the whole there there are uh i can't tell you i know something is like update a chapter each year yeah that they kind of crap and then adopt it all together i know some rpcs do that too um you can do that i don't love that approach just because there's so much of there's much data and maybe if you did that you know you kind of do like your data appendix last you know and kind of update the text at the end or something but um you could um i'd say do a whole lot every eight years away as long as you can and well everything changes too so i mean if you start it and you're doing it you know one chapter a year by the time you get to the end of that eight-year cycle what you did the first chapter is essentially out of date and out of compliance with state and then you got seven new members on the pc and you know it makes sense all right so let's go to public comment so i think we need to allow access to the microphone yes please so if you can come up introduce yourself for the record and um and ask your question we'll play tag team on the mic the question was just he talked about um the book on i think it was a book or i don't know what it was um planning better maybe where you get uh i can write a link to cathard get to you but it's on the e-mail website yeah i can get you that link okay um and it seems like maybe we could request our copies as well i know initially when it first came out we got a bunch but yeah i wouldn't refer they need to exist they might not yeah it's been a copy i'll send you thank you thank you any other public comment or questions like we've got one uh lorraine go ahead hi thank you chair for taking my question um and thank you for presenting this to us there's a very complex set of rules and regs and and it's just very complex so it's good to hear from a county level person um a couple questions one on like a code of ethics so for example if we had someone that was on the planning commission that was good buddies with someone who was an applicant would that be a recommended time to recuse oneself yeah i mean again it should be outlined specifically in your in your uh rules procedure code of ethics but yeah that to me would be a personal interest um also like in the zoning regs for example we have one sticky wicket of a zoning district which is our rpdi um which i'm not sure if you're familiar with that or not the resource preservation so we have an uh a light industrial district that's called the resource preservation district or dash industrial i commonly and i get frustrated with this i commonly hear people keep calling it industrial it is industrial with conditions so when i hear it referred to industrial it frustrates me as a resident here because it greatly impacts a lot of us because it's great it's surrounded by residential and we've been putting in distribution warehouses so it's increased the traffic traffic between the exit and to the circ and it's on both ends there's parallel roads there's 117 there's 15 um and that it can go down either way but it's trying to get to the circ generally or trying to get to north williston's road either one of those that's the um that was the identified truck route at the county level so um on the resource preservation district industrial the core um drive of of that district is to to preserve resources and part of that was contiguous forest lands which are upland it's on a hill it's got a lot of sand the sand runs there's tributaries from there that run directly into the winewski right next to 117 so it was its primary focus and written right into the town plan is that it's to preserve resources and so many of us as residents are very concerned about the waving the consistent waving of the 50 foot buffers because some of those 50 foot buffers in our view was also meant for contiguous forestry for the the animals for the we had a lot of deer in there we had a lot of fox there a lot of stuff like that so when you wave a lot that sounds like it's a red flag to change the rags one way or the other if from what I'm hearing you guys say tonight yes like if you keep waving something then it's time to re-examine the regulations for that district my advice would is be if you're consistently waving a rule that you could probably get rid of them right or change what can can change the uses or I mean you should also change the buffer yeah but you mean I guess not even yeah not just the buffers though I'm saying if if it doesn't work if the if the goal of that specific district is to preserve resources and yeah so what if then at that point would you you would either change the rag and wait get rid of the buffers or you might consider changing what that was zoned for for so Lorraine I'm addressing to address a little bit of that there one of the reasons that the 50 foot buffer is waived or that's waived with generally with conditions that they have to be replanted I understand that Andy and I've watched a number of these meetings and part of the issue with that is the primary focus is contiguous forests and we're taking down those buffers and that's part of what the animals were using so when you drive down Sand Hill you can see the mountains there's no place that the animals are going to go yeah so yeah so Lorraine that what's happened there yeah is is the choice was made at some point in the past not to do forest management of that 200 foot buffer so yes the the trees are tall enough so you know it's it's like a buffer in the sky because the all the foliage of those trees is significantly higher than it used to be and so they're they're my my understanding that there is some active discussion about whether to start allowing forest management in those areas to fill in the gaps that you're talking about so and some of that re-forced as well on its own Andy it's not it kind of happens the but what's happening is the 20 in between the buildings there were there were buffers tree buffers that have been waived and they were also on the road on corporate drive those were all buffered too and so we're gone Lorraine may I chime in a moment sure the 200 foot buffer which is where the forest management practice is actually there there is a forest management practice or there used to be prior to the town and the pre the landowner coming into discussions so in since the since the RPDI was originally created there was a forest remanagement plan by that landowner or the 250 foot buffer and that was the only purpose that was the only intrusion into that buffer that was allowed and that forestry management plan was up to that landowner and it could have been clear cutting it could have been no cutting but it was a it had to have a management plan for that 200 foot buffer the only intrusion into that that's allowed today is an easement for utilities and that's it there's no building in it there's no there's no uh weed up planting trees we're not it's it's not uh part of any application that work is done in that 200 foot buffer there is a 50 foot buffer along corporate drive and um let's see other one Thompson drive internal buffer that's between that is pretty much the waiver has been in place and has been maintained because it allows it has allowed us control over that space to remove scrub because it's not a it's not a force it's not a that 50 foot buffer is not a wildlife corridor it generally has been populated with scrub trees and or brushes brush so that that 50 foot buffer has been consistently utilized for stormwater management without physical structures being created the 100 foot buffer in between the properties that's a little bit of a different story there had been requests for waivers there but that 100 foot buffer still been maintained and a buffer is not necessarily a visual barrier a buffer is a space between the development in some cases there's visual and or sound barriers in some case there's just space so it's it is the industrial use of that of that area has been a prime economic tool in Essex's toolbox since it was created what has changed in the last 10 years is that it went from being an area that was 100% exclusively under the control of the planning commission there was no rules or regulations that that couldn't be waived there was no use that couldn't be allowed it was a 100% planning commission discretion to an area that now has a dedicated town portion that's owned by the town for recreation use access um and an area that is now able to be marketed as an industrial space so it is been a very interesting history in that particular parcel and has been ever since I've been here it on the planning commission and we're at the point now where we actually have probably more control as a town than we've ever had on it before so I think it's it's in this case the waiver has been used as a tool to manage the infrastructure and to maintain the consistency of presentation so whether it can be a waiver and then needs to be put into a regulation but it has allowed us to specify what that presentation looks like that's probably more words than I spoke about today today the other issue with the 50-foot buffer is that it's all the trees there are quite mature for the species that it is so the foliage is up high and when you clear past the 50-foot buffer in the lot to do the development you now have this very weak um it's very vulnerable to to wind and and the elements and so what happens is these very tall trees start falling down what makes more sense is to is to probably get rid of the trees that are not going to last much longer and are a hazard and replant it so it can be you know possibly a habitat or a wildlife corridor and be be more useful and possibly more appealing than just looking at trunks through at a new development or a new building or a new storage area or whatever it is I just want to make that point about why we we've waived that space all right can I talk yes so so the trees yes yes they do get weaker but there are a number of trees if you look at where like Essex Free Library is there is a row of old growth pines right between there and the building that's right next to it depends on how you cut buffers and how you end up developing the land that there are trees in all over Essex that are in succession that are just one line of big pines that aren't falling on people's cars um and also the trees function for birds too it's not just for ground animals and there's ways to add to trees instead of cutting them down you can do the lower growth as well um and I disagree that um that is just for the inner core too in terms of how I interpret RPDI regs and what we need as well as the fact that those are upland and that specifically the RPDI specifically talks about the upland forest and that was a big part of the upland forest um so I just I disagree and I I think personally that the parking lot should not be pushed out to the edges of the the ends and the fact that we now have a a noise ordinance there should be sound buffers automatically added into there because a lot of people are suffering from this and specifically in the ETC next plan it was um and that we finished in 2020 he put into paper for not in 2021 but 2020 um it said that the goal which includes Saxon Hill was to reduce traffic going down 15 and what we've done is increased not only just regular traffic but we've increased a tremendous amount of diesel truck traffic and so when I look at the jobs that go into here into that section and the economic developments and I see a budget and I see at the the other clothing that they're desperate for help I'm not sure that this is working right in terms of the cost to the rest of our residents here I would have much rather seen that be a resident but that's something just just want to throw out there in terms of the um how it's interpreted by a planning commission despite residents staying for years now that this is a problem so I I don't know where we can go from here because I just keep seeing more of these go in I personally think it's against the town plan um but anyway I just wanted to speak to that so I appreciate your time and Dusty thank you for for your um viewpoint I always appreciate that as well thank you thanks Lemme any other comments or questions from the public Catherine has um some evaluations um all right so if you guys can fill us out I would be much appreciated um ECCD makes us do this so sorry uh I don't know Catherine if you can scan them maybe or you know uh it definitely means tomorrow or this week or next week that's fine um but just want to reiterate before I go um you know we're here to serve look forward and then the point question in the area so you know you can be a technical resource as a member municipality you know 12 hours it should free technical assistance for a year guaranteed like immediately you know the next day but but we can provide that you know larger projects just remember that you've got to come through our EPWB process so you're going to find it in the works program you solicit applications um in November each year and so when you start going to budget season you know in September October think about what projects do you want to come to us for make sure you're out paying up money to that for match or we'll pay up speed for service or whatever um thanks for having me thank the metropolitan transportation plan is out for review and open for read for of the comment yeah patient plan is out for review right now on our website there will be a public hearing at our forward meeting on May 17th um so if you'd like to comment that'd be great uh we recently adopted our comprehensive economic development strategy uh which we did in coordination with uh Addison County uh center in Rutland County um that adoption of document allows municipalities in county to apply for funds from the economic development administration of the U.S. Department of Commerce get public works program they have any technical program that the only fun projects that um infrastructure related or live job growth so for your industrial part or wherever else please dba mine um and we're working on the ecos plan the regional plan right now you do ours have done it every five years not every eight years because the mtp and the seds are only valid for for uh five years we're doing it uh year six this time because it's some stupid changes last year i'm sorry you're late uh but you know that'll go out to public hearing uh or probably around christmas time january okay thanks thanks so much teller thanks so much yes thank you thank you so any questions that the select board has for the planning commission's lines are here in a joint meeting i have a question for desi you made this or maybe a shoe that a buffer is just space i thought a buffer when you talk about a buffer is something that keeps you know like you're away from something you're so that you you hit a really good point just what is a buffer there's no set definition of it i mean because it could be a wall it could be nothing you're right it is a separation which is space okay what you do with that buffer and what that buffer is intended for is is quite variable so is it is it uh is it intended to hide something from view so do you need a like at the hospital they have a on the backside of the hospital they've got a what 20 foot solid wall to buffer sound um from the adjacent neighborhood the downstream the downhill neighborhood are we looking to are we looking to buffer site are we looking to buffer sound are we looking to have a wildlife corridor you know separation like that it it isn't all one there isn't one single definition at this stage and i would be very scared of a single definition um we just had an application in recently that the neighboring residential community and the the applicant came to an agreement of there was a natural buffer of 30 feet 50 feet 30 feet whatever that was forested not heavily but they also put in the applicant agreed to put in a stockade fence to provide some sound and light barrier from to prevent light spillage from car headlights so what is again what is the buffer on that one the separation is the space right and what do you do with it so it it's you you you asked a good question but i don't see one that has a i don't see one has a clear answer john it's because most of the complaints we get are noisy it's because it took down the trees and now it's noisy i would but to like the point john said i mean the rpd is a good example of that because i mean that that was a plantation and the trees are all very mature and there isn't a lot of under understory is that very term story there's not a lot of understory to to provide a buffer right so do you put a fence up do you plant more trees what is what is the need so we start with the space okay um you all set because ethans chomping yeah i know he is go ahead i have something helpful i was just gonna say uh to shoot about the trees because i mean i agree with you take a group of trees that all grew together and then you move the trees around and that tree does not have the same strength as a tree that was planted individually whether it was in a row or not and had its whole life to develop in this environment but my question is or possible i don't even know if it's a suggestion or not but did you i know i know that this is part of the process but with the uh trails and uh conservation trails committee did you guys they see a lot of these things with the buffers and stuff like that did um you have any sort of recommendation from the town forester that just solidified your interpretation of those trees uh i not that i can specifically recall but that would be we do we but we did talk to them and that was one of the things that we were told was yeah we you if you're cutting trees on either side of this this buffer you are basically isolating those trees yeah they are a mature forest but they are they live they were growing in an environment that they don't have anymore do i like the whole idea of cutting those trees down i do not right but what makes the most sense is to either thin them and then plant so that they they can get sunlight and grow so you can fill it in or probably the easiest thing is to utilize that space to deal with things like storm water and that sort of thing replant it then what's there will grow up and fill in sure i mean most things don't look all that great after two or five years but give it 20 it'll look great so that i a lot of these things with planning you you can you can really be focused on what you're looking at today but what you really want to be talking about is what's happening in 25 or 100 years that's what's really important with all this stuff and and yeah there's you know it's like logging logging is ugly go back five or six years later it's totally different so and i don't believe in clear cutting or any of those things i don't want to get my personal opinion too much wrapped into this but what we've learned is that those buffers those particular 50 foot buffers along Thompson Drive and along corporate Drive they just don't they're not it's not a good plan to leave those trees there just doesn't work and that's what we were told by forest we were trying to we're trying to adjust and maybe we do anything to regulate but to to to go on to that as well we have the town forester who we've consulted who has recommended more than once to start providing consistency along along the roadways so we don't have the applications aren't coming in all at once right so we're not having we're having one applicant bring in i want to develop this plot so they have a plan for their street front another applicant they have their own plan for that street front so what they what the forester had recommended was that we start working for consistency so again that's that's where the waiver starts coming into play as we can start managing the consistency of appearance and presentation especially on corporate drive less so on Thompson Drive because that's still more more more built out but and more red cedar red pine red pine yeah so red pine and corporate drive especially um a lot of that build out has used that 50 foot buffer that's adjacent to the road to for storm water management because it's not doesn't require structural infiltration it's it's just there we don't want parking there we don't want we don't want structures of any kind in there but what is there for planting oftentimes isn't even trees it's a lot of it is just scrub brush and it's a very it detracts from the from the appearance of the overall area but it's a it's a it's an interesting balance and I will say quite frankly that buffers have been a source of of discussion anytime they've come up in the last 20 years buffers have been open to interpretation by everybody who who who looks at it so there isn't there's there isn't necessarily a clear one answer and if we put one answer in it's not going to work for every single application and everything that comes in because somebody is not going to like it even though it does what it may do exactly what we put the regulation in for and it's not going to work five years 10 years down the road also to be clear the just back to the waiver discussion there's not a waiver for anything but that 50 right right and the planning commission has never waived the 200 foot buffer the 100 foot buffer we've even gone the opposite of people you know somebody is offered to put a structure in that 200 foot buffer to provide a visual barrier and it's like no that's that 200 foot buffer is is it that no there's no entry in there that counts toward the 60 percent consent yeah unfortunately yes yeah i was just throwing that out there that it's nice to have somebody to lean on and say this is a recommendation of yeah and and it's it's it's it's yes i'll be quiet now if i want to go home i didn't even know i have just one more thing go ahead i would like to thank tom furlough and this is his last meeting thank you tom thank you i thank you kind of miss you guys too thanks for that i think i heard yes so does the planning commission have any questions for the select um i think and and everybody can we'll go around here but um the future is is changing right we have change in the in the advance and i see we have two members of our zoning board here as well um i guess i think it's two um it would be we don't really know what was broken so the the change in the the change in the model isn't the need for not need the drive for that isn't necessarily clear so without having a good foundation it's hard for for myself and i i'm not speaking for for anybody else um it's hard to know what what the real goal is i mean even even tonight tyler was was interchangeably using taylor was interchangeably using drb and pc and and so forth so it's it would be i think a really good opportunity now to start having discussions with all of the groups even now even independent of of who might be on those future commissions by boards but to get some ideas of what is the end goal what's the end design what's and i know drb and pc but what's the really what's the intent what are we missing in today's model that we're going to get with this new with the new structure because if we're not getting anything new for not getting anything improved why are we doing i mean i i'm not not pushing against it it's just we need to have an idea of of what we're trying to get to different than what we're doing today again i'm not talking as an individual but as a as a community we made the choice to make a change but what are we looking to gain um what and also what might we lose you know when we go to this model so it's just it i think it's opportunity for discussion and i would really like to see if we can find a way to have all three groups you know come together a little and and have a more active discussion so maybe we can help participate more actively in the transition and i'm not speaking for you guys either but i'm i'm really thinking you have a viewpoint that i personally haven't heard represented in this process so my request is to engage i i i'd echo what you what you're saying juby can you get closer to the microphone please yeah my name is juby norton i'm on the zoning board and i'd echo what you're saying is that processes with the zoning board in my opinion the zoning board acts more as a quasi judicial board in the planning commission okay planning commission is reviewing new stuff okay well excuse me planning commission is creating plans and when it comes to site plan sketch plan review site plans you're reviewing new stuff zoning board is tending to deal with existing stuff that needs some approvals conditional uses to require some judgment what are the rules how does it fit there are answers okay you know his comment and we've heard this from lawyers before there's no way you can grant a variance because the rules are so rigid well it was put there to allow for the opportunity for someone to make use of land that was restricted by some encumbrance that that makes sense okay so you're you we're acting in a different manner than the planning committee so now taking some of those duties that were formally a part of the planning commission that is sketch plan review site plan review and so on now and now combining that with what the zoning board is doing kind of like a little bit separate things one of my questions and i wasn't going to ask him but anyway how the how a future drp of working and each of those those elements differently because i would think that when you're deliberating about a sketch plan you're going to have a different mindset that when you're dealing with a variable or you're making a judgment if you're really acting you know causing so i agree with you is that i think there's a lot of unknown here i'm a great believer in not reinventing the wheel there's a lot of places that are using drps you know learn from their experiences you know how are they structured and how do they handle those those so yeah i agree with you i i think it's a change and yeah there needs to be more intersection as it's going to happen all right but how is it how's it going to be formulated what are they going to be the operating procedures for the drp you know to me so i agree with you saying that i think that this is a discussion yeah so it's my my sense from the discussions that we've had is that the you know it's the separation of planning from review and uh no is it you know and i and i think it's it's not too too uh only a separation of of activity not people you know it's it's it's totally acceptable to be on both boards if somebody chooses to so there's there's no and in fact there may be a you know a reason to have some cross-pollination of of folks if if they're able to stand up to do that because i've heard our you know discussions about uh you're going to lose understanding of the regulations if you have one group doing the making the regulations and the other group implementing member right or making you know passing judgments on them and so you know from that perspective at least as my view we we have it we'll have probably have more discussion about this as well that it would be fruitful to have some you know folks on participate in both both boards but i think the the intent is to allow planning to the planning commission more time to do planning um and um anything else anybody else wants to add to that why we went forward with this it was to allow planning more time because all the time i've been spending on the town plan that was and other things is taking away from we have that more time for planning and drb we have more time for review and enforcement it's interesting to me that that the color drb design review board development development review board yeah okay i'm glad you say okay because i keep getting the wrong word say the wrong word develop a review board so it's like we could have a design review board i know we can really that's a different thing but the development review board uh kind of suggests that it's more slanted towards uh sketch plan a site plan than it is towards additional variants well i i just that's the new title you know you can't get hung up about fighting the new model would separate the legislator from the from the quasi-judicial so the the drb would all you have all of the quasi-judicial right and the planning commission would be yeah understood like i say what's in the title but yeah a little bit they think it's more about development okay not about making use of what you already have in order to either get a conditional you know a conditional use or variants so i think it's a little bit quickly and i do think i mean this was a decision of the community right everybody voted on it this is the direction they wanted to take i do think that this is a worthwhile discussion and i would support having a meeting where this is an actual agenda item and the public knows we're talking about it so they can come and weigh in since ultimately they made that decision by casting their ballots yeah if you did a survey of the population what is the number what's the function of the planning commission what is the select work you know you know there is a lot of what is the zoning board yeah there's you know there's not i have questions every day about you know somebody say well what is what does this zoning board do you know why do they create those we don't create nothing okay so there's really a misunderstanding about local government so to say that the public voted and agreed to develop a review board is like they check that you know they they they rely on the people they've elected come up with a plan so on at this this is at this point i think that the discussion or the whether or not it's going to happen is is no longer an issue right now we're now we're at the point of how to do this and the devil is going to be in the details right so so to make this good make this right i'll start the offer i think that i'm off that i'm making is to is to tap into what the resources that you've already got not just you know other neighborhoods but the people that are here to find out what needs to be done what do you guys do what do we do what do you know we're wearing two hats all the time you know there's there's there's value in that is there overhead maybe but at this point it really is it's got to start get transitioning to a how not a what but a how um and and make this work and so may may eighth the select board is going to sit down we're going to have our strategic planning meeting and knowing that this is in front of us this will be one of the things that of course we asked for we'll be staff will recommend a way that we can all interact and get from where we are today to move yeah but the tiny table is July 2024 is that it's January 21 of 2025 the january 2025 okay so there's fine happy new year okay so so this this the the charter change that that that puts that in place has not been approved by the legislature yet they have been introduced this week i'm not sure if it works um i think it's a draft went to to legislative council um and so it may not get approved this year so um we'll we'll we'll we'll see if and when it gets approved it may challenge that date if it's expectation that that date but i don't i don't know you know there there there could be you know i don't know if we'll be asked to testify you know if they approve it this year then then okay we probably have enough time if it doesn't get approved until next year we suddenly have a six you know a six month window right to do again if we don't know for sure that it's going to be i can't see any reason why they wouldn't approve it but if they don't approve it this year there may be an argument to say that that date's too aggressive i don't know at the end of the day we still need to plan as though it's going to happen so that we're not behind the yes we don't want intention to put our hands behind right right we know that's the date so that's what we need to plan to yeah Ethan and i'm going to uh call to the chair that the comment made by Tracy about Pia that we were having a discussion and if there's any more comments to be entertained about different topics if not we should move on so yeah right we're gonna we'll be having more more discussion about this but i don't want to cut anybody off because we're having i mean we've warned that we're gonna have a joint meeting with the presentation with the the planning commission to talk about it just says joint discussion with the select board presentation about uh municipal planning in vermont we're still talking about i think we're still talking about municipal planning in vermont um i would like to entertain don had her hand up should we have a question no no if we do have um one comment from the public another public comment from the public sorry you you were also yes yeah and i attended the governments group that met or granted you partly participation in the positive but discussion involved planning commission versus the d rv the um anyway and what was described at that time was that planning planning commission is a body that looks at more long-range plan and that the planning commission would be involved more directly and spending more time on the updates whereas d rv would be more what i'm calling and when i looked at the presentation it didn't look like that at all in the presentation we just saw yeah oh it was very clearly i thought it was very clearly in there could there were two options that were that were well but the it just seemed as though there wasn't much interaction between what the d rv does and what the some of the other groups do and and how it's divided up and how they connect to each other and so i'm wondering if there's going to be a possibility eminent to see if that really hits what before if there is like you just mentioned that there's no reason why somebody can't be on both the the d rv and the commission it was confusing to me about what the what the division of responsibilities would be and what the interactions would be and sounded more confusing it sounded as if it would be more confusing to the general public in terms of understanding the process and including the vote to where so that's just so it would be our yes it would be our job to educate folks on on how this is all going to work as we figure out how it's going to implement it well and ultimately any anything going to the d rv would be funneled through the zoning administrator so that touch point will not change for applicants that will still be the process it'll just be funneled from the zoning administrator to a different body am i yeah okay yeah we we haven't talked through how staff is going to break out and do the review and all that but you're right first first staff determines so what responsibilities would be taken out being directed to another body besides d rv well there there would only be the planning commission and the d rv so any sort of development what he had always now he didn't he just it was it was still the same groups it was an either or he had he was depicting both our current situation and our future situation it was a was a an implied or there that you either do it this way or you do it this way oh okay so that the existing one was was there yes but they just were they got both options parallel there right and you're right there was nothing in there that showed how the d rv might feedback information to the planning commission there's nothing in there about how having your trails and conservation committee review applications as well so none of the details of how we're going to have this all work were included in his chart because he's not telling us how we're going to just just giving the bigger general categories of legislative stuff is taken care of by the planning commission and quasi judicial is is all with the d rv that zoning board goes away there is no zoning board anymore but the zoning board goes so the so the responsibilities of the zoning board does today will be done by the d rv in addition to development so that so so all of the quasi judicial stuff sort of becomes just in planning commission plus the except they don't do planning and they will set regulations it's half of the existing planning commission planning commission that wears two hats today they do they do planning and they do application review the application review would be fall to the d rv and u b was correct the zoning board today is 100% quasi judicial planning commission is 50% the d rv would be 100% quasi judicial everything that the zoning board does all the planning application review would be done by that board all the planning straight planning straight plan there's no such thing all that planning would be done by the planning commission but all the different details that we've been bouncing around like the knowledge transfer the the understanding and also you know that that all has to be understood in at least and so expectations need to be established the current setup will continue those details yes or by january 2025 yes and and there has to be right how do you deal with with applications that are currently in process at that time we'll have to understand how that's going to work yes and the idea of having conversations now yes i mean planning like maybe maybe bringing the zba in down for application thank you it will right right right didn't at the table like we would i mean we did that with the when it was the village we would do that with village commissioners they chose to come over visit we would sit at the table and engage in the discussions same way to build knowledge so anyways different different discussion for a different day i would just note i would just note seeing the happy faces in the back of the room that hopefully the zoning board would transfer to the drb when that happens well i mean i think at the end of the day that's an appointment by the select board and that would be a decision that the select board would have to make but it wouldn't automatically happen mr chairman if there's no other business to come before the select board i make the motion we adjourn thank you don thank you ethan not available motion all those in favor please say hi hi oh say nay okay so for the record the planning commission is still is still in in session we'll give it five minutes to let you guys get out of here then maybe we just have five more minutes ourselves that's a thank you so much yeah thank you we have three meetings how quick we may and then i got it right in my calendar okay i'm first you ain't already good good excellent we are back in session we have a couple things to do um we want to potentially set a date to warn for public hearing do you have a proposed time frame i do so my hope would be really to have it as soon as possible and so that would be may 25th so that would be your second meeting in may okay so would anybody like to offer motion through that effect which is to warn the uh have our first have our public hearing on the packet of zoning and subdivision regulations that we want to move forward on may 25th so moved so second seconded by tom we're taking a minute you don't have it yet moved by shoe seconded by tom all those in favor hi hi hi that says four zero thank you um minutes the next item is the minutes from 413 and they've been modified a couple times so i know that the last share and send out something recently um is everybody seeing the versions that she put up okay does anyone who want to offer any uh i need a motion on the minutes for 413 will be approved the minutes for 413 2023 seconded moved by shoe seconded by georgia anyone if everybody really is away dave's away we're not he was away josh might be available for for quick afternoon so what if you all sign and then if we can't get somebody in shortly we'll send it electronically okay to start over so business do you have anything i don't nope i do tom thank you well been an honor and thank you very much for participating well thank you for having me and i really enjoy working with all everybody i'm gonna miss it hey good luck thank you tom yes good luck thank you and with that i would take a motion to adjourn i move we adjourn second oh tom second there he's not getting away all those in favor hi hi i need one more georgia hi thank you we are adjourned