 My name is Julia Penfield and I'm the Director of the Future of Land and Housing Program at New America. This webinar is a part of New America's Aftershock series, and we're so pleased to co-host it with the Norwegian Refugee Council. As we sit here today, we know a war is raging in Ukraine, and Russia's invasion has sparked a massive exodus. Nearly 5 million Ukrainians have fled the country and another 7 million at least are internally displaced and that number grows every day. Entire cities are being destroyed by Russian shelling. Right now, Ukrainians are fighting for their homeland and in many places their lives and the most immediate needs are for military support and humanitarian assistance. But there's another critical question that's emerging as it does in any conflict and that is what we're here to talk about today. What happens to the properties that millions of Ukrainians are leaving behind and the countless buildings that are being shelled? When the day comes for Ukrainians to return and rebuild, how will they reclaim the home still standing and receive compensation for the houses that have been destroyed? Today, I am honored to be joined by four experts to discuss the measures that policymakers must put in place right now to increase the chances of a successful post-war restitution effort. And what Ukrainian refugees can do to improve their odds of reclaiming what they left behind. These experts are helping to think through these issues in Ukraine in real time and I want to in particular thank my Ukrainian colleagues for taking the time to join. This is a difficult conversation because while it may sound sometimes like we're discussing laws and policies, in fact we're discussing people. We're talking about people's lives and their homes. It's a difficult and personal subject, but for the reasons we'll get into during the panel, it's one that needs to be discussed urgently without waiting for the dust to settle. So I thank everyone for coming together for this conversation. I will now introduce our four incredible panelists. We'll talk for about 40 minutes, and then we will open it up to audience Q&A. So please do drop your questions into the Slido box as we talk. First, I am pleased to introduce Vladimir Kerbalase, Housing Land and Property Coordinator for the Norwegian Refugee Council Ukraine, as well as the Housing Land and Property Technical Working Group within the UN coordination system in Ukraine. Vladimir has spent the last several years working on housing land and property issues in Ukraine, with a particular focus on the compensation and restitution issues that we'll be talking about today. As well as security of tenure, property records and ownership documentation. Next, I would like to introduce Dennis Nizalo, Senior Land Governance Advisor for the Pryndex Project and a senior lecturer at DeMount Fort University. Before taking this position, Dennis was the program director for the World Bank's program on supporting transparent land governance in Ukraine. Next, I am pleased to introduce Katerina Reznikova. She is the technical director of BlomInfo Ukraine. BlomInfo is a Ukrainian company that since 2004 has been developing GIS systems in the Ukrainian market, maintaining and filling land, cadastral information systems, spatial planning and creating community resource management systems. Experts from BlomInfo are included in most of the Ukrainian government's working groups for the development of new regulations and legislation, including property restitution. Katerina's colleague, Helen Lesenko, will be translating. And finally, I am pleased to introduce Professor John Anra, a professor of geography at McGill University in Montreal. He has over 25 years of experience in developing and implementing research, policy and practice on land and property rights in war affected states. He's worked in the Middle East, Latin America, Africa and Asia for a variety of multinational and bilateral donors and NGOs, as well as country governments. Welcome everyone. I'd like to start the discussion with a question to John. John, let's start with a broad international perspective to frame the issue. Typically, during conflict, what happens to people's homes and property? What are the major things that you and other international experts worry about in these contexts? Thank you, Julia. Well, apart from the unfortunate destruction of damage and looting that goes on to people's homes and properties, what we see is a broad collapse of livelihoods as the various systems that support livelihoods, food, education, water, security, also collapse. And the difficulty then with returning home. One of the primary problems that we worry about is that people, of course, depart their priorities are getting through the day. Frequently, they can either plan in advance, but most of the time they simply run out the back door of their house as a battle looms or opposing forces approach. What that means is that they very often don't take evidence, documentation of their attachment to their housing land and property with them. And so they don't have it. If they do take it with them, they very quickly come to realize that it could be confiscated and used against them so they can destroy them or purposefully leave them behind or erase them off their phone. Their housing land and property can also become traffic, right, as we've seen in Eastern Ukraine with the militias operating there. The reality is that there's a very narrow window between which people become aware of what other non documented forms of evidence they have be able to gather that upload it to a platform and then get it off of their persons as they continue to flee the theater of conflict, not being able to do that to grasp what attaches you to your home is a primary problem because frequently those that flee are not aware of just how easily it is to become completely and permanently disconnected, legally, physically from your housing land and property during war. Thank you. Thank you, John. Now, I'm moving to Vladimir and Katerina. I'm coming directly to the conflict in Ukraine. You're both on the ground right now, Vladimir with NRC, Katerina with Blamenfo. Can you describe what you're seeing in terms of what is happening to the homes and property of Ukrainians and how the situation is differing from city to city. What are the biggest challenges that are emerging? And maybe we'll start with Vladimir and then move to Katerina. Hello. I'm happy to be here, but my English is not at heart level. And I will ask my colleagues, Elena, to help me with the translate. Do you not mind? Elena, do you hear me? I want to tell you that we agreed to agree. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to inform you about the current situation in Ukraine regarding property rights, including land plots. Regarding the situation with land plots in cities where active combat activities are taking place, then most of the housing is ruined or damaged. It's the situation with property in the cities where active facilities to place most of the housing and social infrastructure are very destroyed. And the situation does not differ much from city to city. What needs to be done? What are the specific ways to deal with this? Currently, it is important to quickly fix these losses, evaluate the losses and begin to pay compensation or renew the housing fund. But for now, this is very important to make adaptation of existing legislation to the condition of material law. But for now, this is very important to make adaptation of existing legislation to the condition of material law. In order that all other actions of fixing destruction, evaluation of losses, payment of compensation and other procedures were to place in the legal field. But we should remember that Ukrainian citizens who suffered from the destruction of real estate, demands of building housing for them. Moving to Vladimir, go ahead, Vladimir. Thank you. Thank you, Julia. I will try to answer a question in English. Well, first of all about the situation on the ground. Well, I would like to make it as clear as possible that the situation is arise significantly depends on the different region in Ukraine. So I personally classify this area on three different types. The first one is the areas with the light destruction or single cases of heavily destruction houses. Well, it is most common. This case is mostly common in Western and Central Ukraine and some big cities like Kiev and Odessa. These areas actually have experienced some single cases of airstrikes, but it didn't happen on a daily basis. So in practice, it means that you can found a few buildings, not always residential, which was heavily destroyed or damaged and such bigger number of light damages caused by the explosive wave around. The second type would like to describe the medium one. So these cases is mostly common in settlements in the Northeast, East and South Ukraine. Well, and I identified three main factors which actually affect the level of destruction. The first one is whether the settlements was located on the occupied territories. The second one, whether the settlements was used by armed forces for the transit matters or has been used for overnight stay. And the third one is strategic importance of the settlements, for example, like Kharkiv or Mariupol. So usually it means that it's such kind of settlements you can find a lot of completely destroyed or damaged houses. And I mean including residential with a huge amount of light destruction. And well, let's be honest, I'm not an expert in damage assessment, but on my personal experience by the medium level, I mean the cities like Spucha and European you might probably have seen photos of. And the last one, the third one is a heavily affected area. So due to different reasons, this area was unlucky to take the strongest and the strongest wave of destruction. I mean Mariupol, I mean those city Borodyanka in Kiev, Oblast, and I mean those numerous small villages on the way on the strategic roadways. So these settlements actually looks like it looks exactly like an image of the city after war in our head. So, and also to to to be brief and to finish the situation the ground I would also would like to compliment what has been said by the previous speaker, the most of them these settlements has experienced really strong issue with lack of electricity to water and heating, grocery shops are mostly closed due to the logistic issues and some areas even now remains really hard to reach due to the destruction of the local infrastructure. I mean roads breach the mine contamination and the unexploded ordinance of war remains a significant issue as well. So this is like to briefly explain what is the situation on the ground up today. Thank you, Vladimir. Staying with you for just a moment. As we know, while the invasion that began in February is a major escalation. There's been a conflict going on in the dumb bus since 2014. And that conflict has resulted in significant property destruction as well. And the Ukrainian government has already been addressing this over the last several years. So can you tell us briefly, what has been happening with property in the dumb bus over the last several years. Thank you for the question. Well, in order to answer this question briefly I would like to say that for the first few years after the conflict has started in Donbas. And the Ukrainian government has been deciding what is the most effective and the proper way to resolve to address the needs of the conflict affected population. So in 2019 it was a decision actually to launch the compensation program for completely destroyed housing. So Ukrainian context has already a successful example of the protection of the housing rights of the conflict affected population. I would like to say a few words how it was the way how it has been done by the by the government. The first of all, the approach which was used is slightly different from those we've seen in another context. So the government use the study, which showed the average price for obtaining a new house in the region. And they decided to provide those people those house was completely destroyed with them with this exact amount of money, which allow them to buy a new house in the region. So it doesn't matter if your previous completely destroyed house was the price for this house was higher or lower. Everyone received the amount of money, enabling them to buy a new house and this program was piloting into 2019 then in 2020 and 21 and actually more than 500 households receive the compensation and we're unable to resolve their housing needs before this escalation of the war in 2022. Thanks. So yeah it's it's remarkable and you know it's unique that Ukraine already has a bit of a model for the, these compensation schemes because this conflict has been going on at a lower scale, of course for many years. So, Dennis moving to you. As john mentioned a major issue is often that property rights are not documented to begin with or, you know, people don't have documentation or the registry doesn't exist. It's difficult to sort out who owns what, but Ukraine is a bit different since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 91 Ukraine has undergone extensive land reform. So, can you tell us a little bit about the status of property rights and people's registration in Ukraine right before the invasion. Thank you very much. Indeed, the situation in Ukraine is quite different than you may imagine in other conflict affected areas. And, well, we should take a couple of things into account. First of all, the property right private property right did not exist in Ukraine before 1991. Effectively, and in the process of privatization, people were granted property rights for their housing and for land. And most of these transactions are documented. So people have one or another form of the documents confirming their property rights. However, there is a big difference between land rights, land related rights and rights for housing property. As you know that Ukraine went through some major land reform just before the war. And in preparation for this land reform for opening up the agricultural land market, most of the issues related to documentation related to infrastructure for supporting transaction was upgraded. That means that most of the documents and most of the rights were present in an electronic disaster, unified electronic disaster, which included close to 90% of the private property for land and a large share of state land. So the land property was documented electronically and also in preparation, not all but a large portion of it. And one factor that moved this sort of formalization process was the rental market. And as you probably know, most of agricultural land is cultivated under the rental rights. So the agricultural companies had an interest to sort of secure their rental rights and they helped land owners to document the property rights to begin with. But then also they have documented the rental rights in the state register of rights. That's sort of a big picture of what happens with property rights for land. Moreover, many infrastructural things were developed and implemented before the land market was opened. So issues of unclaimed rights were addressed in the legislation, for example, for the unclaimed inheritance or unclaimed privatization rights. So they were addressed in the legislation. Things like remote sensing of land use where it was implemented and tested for the entire territory of the country right before the war. So we have something to compare what happens after the war during the war with this effective land use before the war. The situation is different with housing. Even though many people, most people have some confirmation of their property rights. In many cases, this documentation is in a paper form. Unfortunately, before the war, we were not able to create a unified a disaster for real estate and each city approached this in a different way. We have some cities like Keith, like Lviv, which have established a very sophisticated system with all the rights and all the technical characteristics of property being documented. While in some other cities, particularly in smaller cities and villages, this information stayed in the paper form. So that leads to the reason that when the war started, many archives is under the risk of being distracted. John has rightly mentioned if people have lost any paper evidence of their property rights, restoring such rights may be a problem, particularly for the areas that were under occupation or which were directly on the front line. Thank you, Dennis. John, moving back to you, what typically happens to destroyed and abandoned properties once a war ends? And then John, if you'd like to answer and then I'll open it up to the other panelists if they would like to jump in as well. So what do we foresee happening to destroyed and abandoned properties in Ukraine once the war ends? What would typically happen? Sure. I can start off. So typically what we see is a large involvement of the international community assisting the government with what we call a large scale housing land and property restitution process. In this case, meaning also compensation for people who cannot return to properties that are destroyed or damaged or who do not wish to come back. So even if your house is standing and you do not wish to come back, you're still do compensation. Part of the issue is that we have an example like Ukraine where the government is very able, expertise is high, significant progress was made prior to the war. And still there's the issue that no country, whoever they are, is in a position to manage the millions of people that will be returning home and filing claims and trying to get compensation and trying to solve housing land and problems all at once. So, so imagine, imagine the large scale return that goes on largely uncontrolled, and people arrive at their property is damaged is destroyed someone else's in it somebody sold it. And so they have to go somewhere else to live. And so this is a enormous problem. No country can do this. And so the international community does have a package. It can come in, establish a land commission, take all of the housing land and property problems out of the normal court system because it would usually just completely overwhelm that put it separately and engage in what's called transitional justice. The transitional justice is something that is short term, it's temporary, that the justice part, it does things like categorize as claimants, and then passes a single legal decision for the whole category. One of the primary worries here is that a government will want to take on all of the many, many cases and look into them and decide them one by one. That takes decades to do people become very unhappy sometimes very angry that it's taking so long. And so that becomes a real problem. The international community the restitution process has a number of techniques that it can use to make this happen very, very quickly for large numbers of people. So what we usually have is a partnership that goes on between the international community that supports national governments in this large scale restitution compensation process. Thanks. Thank you, John. Moving to Katerina and anyone else who would like to jump in after her. Remarkably, we know that the Ukrainian government is already taking steps to think through the property restitution process after the war ends. Tell us a little bit about what the government is already doing. And in cities that have been liberated already where the Russian forces has have retreated. Is that process already beginning. First of all, I would like to say that I agree absolutely with Denis and we are very lucky that we have all these electronic registers and cadastries that allow us to renew our right of ownership already directly in electronic appearance, although they are not all 100% in electronic appearance. I fully agree with Denis and would like to confirm that we are lucky that we have electronic system and cadastres and that residents of Ukraine have got the right to renew their rights to the property. Also, the registers are not complete on 100%. However, no one of these cadastries does not work and it is impossible to conduct any transaction with property. But now none of these registers are working and there is no opportunity to make transaction regarding the basis of these registers. I would like to say that Ukraine is a peaceful country and there is no experience in our military state. I would like to underline that Ukraine is a peaceful country and Ukraine has a good experience living and existing at the process of martial law. And now it is very important to adopt our legislation to the condition of the martial law. Our government has been adopting some regulations that will assist to resolve the situation that we are in the state in Ukraine. First of all, this is the law of Ukraine, the law of regulation, the use of agricultural land in the martial law. This law regulates the use of agricultural land in the martial law and regulates some of the prestigious aspects. Regarding the composition of land management, documentation and others. The second main resolution is the resolution of the Cabinet of Ministers on approval of the procedure for detonating the damage and the law of regulation. This resolution is the resolution of the Cabinet of Ministers on approval of the procedure for detonating the damage and the law of regulation. which are divided into 15 areas. According to the regulations, the definition of damage and losses is determined in 15 areas. And they are divided from human losses to natural resources. They are concerns from human losses to losses of property and the losses of the environment. According to each of these 15 areas, the responsibility of the ministries that have to develop the method of distribution of these losses. According to each of these directions of damages and losses, the ministries have been identified and these ministers are obliged to develop calculation methods of estimation of damages and losses. The term that our state has been working on for six months is set by the Ukrainian State of the Ministries to develop the method of distribution of these losses in six months. The active process of the fixation, which is related to the active process of the fixation of damage in the cities that have already been caused. At present, it does not happen as actively as we wanted it to be. And the reason here is the only one. The reason is that the consequences of the military actions are not liquidated and there are major risks of mincing the territory. The inter-liberated areas, city settlements, does not take place now. And one of the reasons of it is that these are consequences of hostility which have not been eliminated in one of these hostilities is the mining. Katya, would you like to add something else? If I do not encourage you, if you would like to add that after the end of mining, you can proceed to the orbit. Right? Yes. Katya would like to add that the active process of fixing destruction can be started at once. The mining was done, will be done. Thank you. Latimir, Dennis, I'd like to give you an opportunity also to answer this question. What is the government already doing? Well, first of all, indeed there are several things that are already in place and implemented. For example, the government has the active instrument of identification and recording of all the explosions. Whatever happens on the ground, there is a system already in place that records such events. Also, there are several systems where people can declare the losses, including the one that is implemented via the government portal called DEA, where people can sort of file the claim for the losses. And there are several other platforms that were developed by various private developers where people can document, provide evidence of the losses and which is used for assessment of losses. Right? However, I would like to return to the point that Katya has mentioned that effectively now neither the registries, registries of any registry and the state cadastres, they are not operational. They were evacuated from Kyiv to a safer place. However, they are not providing support to the transactions as they should be in the situation of peace. So, and that leads to several issues which we have discussed with government officials that they urgently need some support for sort of restoring the services but providing the level of cybersecurity that is necessary in this situation. But second, if possible and where possible, there are needs for urgent intervention to digitize or to copy the archives that were not digitized before the war in areas where it is safe. So that's something that is urgent but then we can follow up on these points about the development of methodology for loss assessment. There are also a couple of things that needs to be done. If may I to compliment what was said by the previous speaker, I would also just want to mention that if you more, if your actions more focused on the policy development was also taken by the Ukrainian government. For example, I would like to mention that the draft law on the compensation, compensation slash restitution procedure has been already submitted to the Ukrainian parliament has been successfully passed through first hearings. And now it is on the way to the second hearing of the Ukrainian parliament and the member of parliament and other state agencies and all of their non profitable organizations has an opportunity to provide the responsible ministry with the suggestions. With the suggestions how these draft law could be amended before its final revision final final adoption. This is just short, short update also from my side. Thank you Vladimir and now I'll come to the final two questions that I will ask and I will ask all of the panelists to briefly answer and I think you know to me these are the two most important questions of the discussion so I hope that I know these, I hope that you pay attention. The first is, what can displaced Ukrainians be doing right now to ensure that they can reclaim their property once the war is over, or receive compensation for anything that's been destroyed. I agree with the previous speaker Denise and I would like to underline that the first thing which Ukrainians should do is to register the damage at the state part of the action in English. They can do it regardless of their location and to do this the citizens of Ukraine need to know information about the object that was damaged, make photos and description of damage and all contact information. Can I jump in at this point, I think there is no need to invent a will. And I think what John has mentioned to make a copy of whatever proofs you have that's the safest strategy so we don't know when and how the registers and cadastres will be operational and what is there what is not and how secure will be the copies of your documents. So if you have a chance to make copies but not only of a title but all the documents that can document the technical characteristics that can document the rights that you have that needs to be done and this electronic copy should be stored somewhere in a safe place. And prep just to follow up on on those two very, very useful contributions from the international perspective, what a land commissioner transitional justice process likes to see is corroboration. So you may have a document, but that document exists where services are destroyed the National Archives may be destroyed there's falsifications of documents, so it likes to see corroboration. So then he just mentioned any photos, not just photos of your documents but photos of your, your house your property, your family in front of your, your property. Your school bills electricity bills, anything that has your address on it, including interviewing grandmother or grandfather who has in their head the entire history of your house or your land and your property. When was there a drought. When was the price of bread high, all of these details, particularly that that testament to attachment to place that's very valuable for corroboration, because those who are going to engage in fraud will not have that. And so corroboration is seen as very, very valuable and so part of this is an awareness raising for people who are dislocated as to what what is good for this this form of corroboration but that's part of the challenge and it has to happen fairly quickly. Thanks. And also to complement what was said by by the previous speakers. I just want to mention that Norwegian Refugee Council has a huge experience on providing freely go late to Ukrainian citizens who were seeking for compensation in the previous, the period so to summarize yes I would definitely agree the first step is to inform the government on the destruction. It's very well covered by the speakers also. If your documentation were undamaged, please check if these documentation meet formal requirements to recognize you as a legal owner of the property, it's because of the complication of legal system as was previously said by Dennis. The last thing it's also extremely important that, even if your documentation with damage to destroy it, do not take much of time to, to apply for free free legal aid providers in Ukraine, who can support you with the further legal actions need done in order to enable you to receive compensation in the future, and also what is really important keep monitoring the, the situation with the legislation, in order not to miss the opportunity to apply to submit a compensation application or anything. What everything else should be done from legal perspective. Can I just add one more point please to what John has mentioned. An additional piece of evidence that people can use to restore their rights is the testimonies from people from neighbors from local authorities. That sort of saw the previous owners of exercising their rights so I think an additional piece of information that people need to have with them is the names and contact information of their neighbors and of their local government so that they can at least ask for such testimonies if needed. Thank you for providing those very concrete steps that Ukrainians can be taking right now and you know the sooner the better to document their ownership. So I'll come to my very last question. What can the international community be doing right now to help with this process. What are the biggest and the most urgent needs. Let me start and then another panelist will complement. Well, I would like to be really pragmatic and open with all of the attendees of today's our today's event. The first of all, let's be realistic. What will happen with the compensation. There is three main factors that affected the first one is of course is political will of the decision makers. The second one is a financial capacity of the state and the third one is the technical capacity of the state officials to develop and design the proper compensation restitution mechanisms. So of course I will not tackle the first one, but more focused on the second and the last one. It's about financial capacity. What could be done right now. The first one is to have a contact with the relevant governmental stakeholders who will be responsible for managing so called fund for reconstruction of Ukraine discuss with them their needs. There are fundraising opportunities and support them in calculation of the financial resources required to provide restitution compensation. The third one is a technical, the technical support for the state authorities and I would like to share the, the experience of Norwegian refugee council. Well, when a few years ago when we coordinated with the Ministry of Reintegration, we had a meeting and we said that we know that you have a political will to launch this compensation mechanism. Let us support you in design the exact mechanism, how it should be done. And they agree in that because you know, I'm, I cannot say on behalf of Ukrainian government, but it is very, very open government to work with. So, if you have something practical them to offer in terms of like how to establish proper state register of violated property rights how to collect data on scale of destruction, how to develop efficient and effective mechanism for compensation. Do not hesitate to contact them. I, I want to emphasize as much as possible that they are really open for the practical solutions practical expertise and practical recommendations from international community, especially if it, if it will be linkage between this international community and national legal expert who can translate these solutions into the language of Ukrainian frameworks and policies and loss. This is my main recommendation. If you follow up then I would also suggest that we consider, you know, the ways how the international community can support Ukraine in this situation, sort of this recommendation can be into groups. There are some urgent needs of the government and of the people of Ukraine in, in terms of protecting property rights that is related to the operation of Cadaster and registries, preserving the archives, recording the damages and so on. However, the time is the essence. So, if such aid can be provided fast enough and would respond to the actual needs that is needed. However, if this any suggestion or any technology cannot be transferred soon enough, that probably it's not a good idea to try to do something that would take, you know, years to implement, right, we may have peaceful times for, you know, something that is more time consuming. However, there is a second part of the support that would require sort of strategical changes and longer time for implementation and that is related to methodology development, putting together the infrastructure for the restitution, the means for rehabilitation of land, for demining of land and so on. So these things will have to be ready by the time when Ukraine or any parts of Ukraine are liberated and these things have to be implemented. And so now we have time to prepare for this. And I think that that is very much on demand. Thank you. Just to follow up with those very good comments. Certainly agree from the international perspective. Now is the time to begin to prepare. So, to those agencies, for example, within the United Nations that normally work on restitution processes. IOM, UN habitat, even UNHCR should right now be familiarizing themselves with the authorities and the experts in Ukraine in order to try to try to think forward. However, as any says mentioned, there are very immediate needs. Those needs would include assisting with the digitization of paper archives evacuating those paper archives. And starting to engage in perhaps raising awareness among refugees and dislocated people as to what constitutes good evidence. The risk here that we've seen in other other conflicts is that people may have a lot on their phone. But there's their world can shrink by and large to their phone. And so they begin to delete off of their phone, very valuable information as opposed to uploading it first, because they don't want to get caught, for example, with that material on their phone. As we've seen in Russia where phones are being confiscated and searched for for different things. So that's the risk, the risk of loss. So I would just I would just support that. Quick digitization, the technology can be provided and the assistance very quickly. That's great, along line with awareness raising as well. Thanks. Well, colleagues, I summed up our conclusions that we would like to receive support from the international community and this led to four main classes of support. I summarized the steps which international group can assist Ukraine in restoring citizens and property rights. There are four steps which I would like to tell you. Yes, the first step is to create an expert group to which international experts with the appropriate experience, assessment and fixation of the ruin, directly on the level of our cabinet minister. Establishment of an expert group at the level of the Cabinet of Ministers Ukraine, which expert groups should include international experts with relevant experience or for assessments. And it will be highly appreciated that the expert group and the experts themselves made the methodological approaches, which build it on the level of the Cabinet of Ministers Ukraine. Which will be based on a simple and accessible calculation of the risks. The second step is to develop the appropriate instrument that will allow you to fix the ruin and with the use of modern technology, LiDAR, photo-video fixation and so on. Based on the development calculation methods, it's necessary to create a geographic information system for fixing damages and which system should be recorded and calculate the methods of compensation for losses in each industry separately. It can be used measurement for the fixation, scanning and others. The third step is that at the present moment it is necessary to create a team of experts who can fix it. That is, there should be a mobile team with the appropriate equipment that will make this fixation, that is, this should be done professionally. And the last step is to test this methodology in one or two territories that can be chosen in Ukraine for the pilot project. So we have time for just one question. Many of the questions that have come in have been answered through the course of our conversation. So we have time for just one question. Many of the questions that have come in have been answered through the course of our conversation. So we've had a couple of questions related to properties in Crimea that have already been expropriated and what's happening to properties that had been expropriated in Crimea. If somebody would like to just jump in and provide a brief answer to that question, that would be fantastic. I'm sorry. I can try to respond so my colleagues would like to. Okay, I will try to respond and then if somebody has something to compliment, please go ahead about the Crimea, you know that until this escalation of the war, there was no compensation mechanisms for the property which was expropriated in Crimea. And also, in addition to Crimea issue the expropriation of property has started since the summer in non-governmental control area in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblast as well. So the measures which were taken by the government is actually the non-recognition of any legal actions related to the property located in Crimea or in another non-governmental control area. If these legal actions are not followed with Ukrainian legislation and are not recorded in Ukrainian legal registry. So this is the answer what is happening in Crimea property and another property, immovable property located in non-governmental control area. Thank you. Thank you Vladimir. Well, with that I would like to thank our panelists and the audience for tuning in and I'd just like to close by addressing my Ukrainian colleagues and anyone tuning in from Ukraine directly. Thank you, Vladimir. We will move forward and we will rebuild our Ukraine. Glory to Ukraine. Thank you everyone. Glory to the heroes. Glory to the heroes.