 Newsletter Kenny University Hospital is operating on half of what it needs in terms of ICU beds. Just six ICU beds are in operation at the hospital. It fold well short of the 15 beds recommended in 2021. An application was previously made for funding to open additional beds. However, that was unsuccessful. Anyone who has been confirmed blood test samples are being outsourced from Letter Kenny University Hospital. It's an interim major as efforts are being made to increase capacity in the blood science department of the hospital. A letter was issued to GPs at the end of last month informing them of delays in the testing of blood samples at Letter Kenny University Hospital's blood science department as a result of insufficient capacity. The government is being urged to urgently address what's been described as Ireland's unacceptably high electricity prices. The call from Sinn Féin comes as profits at ESB, surged by 30% to 868 million euro for 2023. And as been proposed, the Liffords-Norlam Municipal District twin with Spanish village Semancas to mark the connection with Red Hugh Donald. The council in Semancas has already passed a motion to twin with the area in recognition of Lifford being the birthplace of Red Hugh Donald and the Spanish village being the place of his death in 1602. Those are the latest headlines. We'll be back with news in full at two o'clock. In the meantime, we can now join Greg Hughes, who is live from the Aurelésia Centre with a counting of votes from the referendums on family and care is continuing. Yes, indeed. Thank you very much, Michaela. Welcome to our extended news from the Aurelésia Centre in Letter Kenny, where counting is underway and well underway, in fact, for the family and care referendums. My panel, as we sort of go through the ins and outs of all of this today, John McAteer, editor of the Chicano Tribune newspaper. John, good morning to you. It is the afternoon. Sorry, isn't it? It is the afternoon, but it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel, no, and I'm not used to this. OK, I might ask you to direct your opinions to the microphone, please. I can't see you then. It's OK. We're also joined by Siobhan Collin, chair of the Women's Centre in Letter Kenny, who advocated for ESCS. Siobhan, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks, Greg. Happy to be here. Thank you very much. It's great to have you on board. Paddy Rooney, a political analyst, regular contributor to us here at Highland Radio. Paddy, thank you. Good afternoon, Greg. How are you? Good, good, good. And last but certainly not least, Mary T. Sweeney, candidate frame to a party, candidate frame to in the local elections and a party that was advocating a no-no. Good morning to you, Mary T. Good morning, Greg. Good morning, listeners. Right. I think we, John, I'll start with you. I think we pretty much can establish now low turnout locally, low turnout nationally, and it's going to be a no-no in Donegal and no-no across the country. Anything about that surprise you? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. That surprises me. We've been through a referendum down the years. We've had them rejected and all the while they kicked back from government was that we have to do better. We have to listen to people. We have to connect with people. It's quite evident this last three months in politics that the government is not connecting with people. People are disillusioned. People just have had enough of it. You know, on top of all that, you have this swing away from the main parties right across Europe at the moment. It's probably happening here to some dimension here today because to me, whilst it's supposed to be about two referendums, it really is a vote of no confidence in the government at every level. They didn't get involved. They didn't think fit. The guillotine did right through the doll. They ignored all of the hard work that the Citizens' Assembly put into it. So what do you expect the people to do? And then, of course, we had the Attorney General's advice being released yesterday by the Ditch after the moratorium kicked in. I can understand why they did that. At the end of the day, as far as I saw it, the whole scene was set by the John O'Mara case in the Supreme Court when he sought to get the widower's pension. His spouse passed away and he was denied access to that, him and the three family. He took it to the Supreme Court and he won that hands down. But very significantly, Seamus Wolfe, the judge sitting on that, said that as far as he could understand, there was nothing in the article that precluded John O'Mara from his just entitlements. So effectively, what were we voting on here? I mean, the interpretation of the Constitution can only be done by the Attorney General and the legal people. In John O'Mara's case, it was a very, very clear cut. They rejected the interpretation of it. And I mean, we're now voting to change that. But what are we exactly voting to change? OK, well, I'll come back to you. Thankfully, we have quite a bit of time. Siobhan Cullen, Chair of the Women's Central Electric, Kenny, was it, I mean, did you have a full grasp of what the government was trying to do here? Like, were you fully comfortable with it and then sort of made or uncomfortable with it? And the best option was a yes-yes. I mean, what was your thinking in endorsing a yes-yes? Well, as a family lawyer, who's been teaching family law for many years, I had a good grasp of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean I agreed with the way that it had been framed by the government. I have to say I'm disappointed, but not surprised by the potential outcome of no-no. It has been 30 years in the making this referendum. It's been looked at multiple times on a cross-party basis, and every constitutional review committee has recommended that Article 41 be changed. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the way this was framed was the perfect way to do it. I think a number of issues were conflated, and I have to say I don't think the government engaged enough with people in terms of why they were arguing for a constitutional amendment. I would have to say, though, that the low turnout is not particularly surprising. That's happened before with various referenda. Only 34% of people voted in relation to the children's rights referendum. I would like to commend the people who did vote, and not everybody had the right to vote, and I know it's not always easy in rural areas getting out to vote, but I'd like to commend the people who had their voices heard. And I think we have to acknowledge that we're very fortunate to have a constitution that can only be amended by a referendum because some countries have constitutional amendments made by government. Yeah, but that still doesn't relieve the government of its responsibility to get it right, too. Because, I mean, obviously we can talk about the messaging and what was and wasn't said, but a lot of people didn't receive the documentation to educate them on it. Polling cards didn't arrive on quite a number of occasions because we've been contacted by quite a lot of people. I, to my house, received two or three ballot papers for, I don't know who they were for, I couldn't even get them to the people that were supposed to have them. I'll come back to you in a moment. There was a lot to this, Paddy Rooney, but for me, it came down to actually just three words, strive, durable, and mother. If I were to put it in a nutshell, for me, that's what it was. Yeah, I think that the political establishment sort of realized within the last 10 days that there was going to be two things. One, that there was going to be a low turnout, and B, that the yes-yes side of the campaign was going to be in trouble. Jennifer Bray, a political correspondent with the Irish Times, was interviewed on RTE last weekend, and she said that her sources within the government were very concerned about those two things, that they were literally pleading and beseeching that there would be a turnout in excess of 35%. Now, 35% is very, very low. I mean, if we're talking about something like, there was about three and a half million people entitled to vote yesterday, Greg, and it looks like somewhere in about two and a quarter million people stayed at home, they didn't bother with it at all. Now, they didn't, I suppose there's a variety of reasons why they didn't do that. A, because they felt that it didn't impact on their life in any kind of meaningful way, and the post referendum situation was going to make no difference to them, or they couldn't understand it, or that they had more pressing issues within their life, I suppose. Mary T, I think the argument for the no-no here was a much easier one to articulate, and even Michael McDew, for all of his analysis, he effectively came down to a message that was very hard to counteract, if in doubt, vote no. Now, obviously, his argument and your argument went deeper than that, but does this surprise you at all anything about the presumed outcome of a no-no? I would never presume until the day of the counter we see the actual realisation and paper about how people have voted, because you can never expect anything or predict anything in Irish politics, but I'm very much relieved and delighted that the people saw through the cavalier and anti-democratic behaviour of this government, and I think that the resounding no-vote, not just in Donegal, that has been followed throughout the country from what I'm getting, the feedback I'm getting, I think no means go, I think no means go to this government, you know, that people are disillusioned and there's discontent and that people have had enough and there's a change in politics needed and a change in strategy, and I think the people weren't respected and the Constitution is a fundamental principle document that is the basis of all our law, the people spoke very determinedly. Paddy, does no mean go to you? I mean... Well, not... I'm not so sure about that now, because all of the political parties right across the spectrum, with the exception of N2, actually were, yes, yes. And they're a freedom party for all of us, wasn't they? The Labour Party, the Social Democrats, the Sinn Fein were all always advocating, I mean, did they get it wrong? You know, you can't sort of single out the government on the side and say they should go and give the other ones a free pass on it. I think it's much more complex than that. Of course, this is democracy and people have been faced with the decision to be made yesterday, which they did. We will have a local election now coming up in June and the European election and there are going to be very, very different elections and people are going to be making their choices on local and European issues and those elections. There are going to be very, very different things. Who knows is the answer to that, Greg? I suppose only time will tell when the dust settles on it all. There's a bit of an analysis done out of it and then we'll see. Siobhan, you talked in your first contribution about how this has been three decades in the making. Are those who would want to see the change, those that even maybe sometimes through gritted teeth advocated for yes, yes, angry in that this is a missed opportunity? How do we go back to the drawing board on this now? You know, we had one go with it. If you want to change, you probably could be pointing some anger towards the government too. I think there's a huge disappointment on that basis, Greg. And I genuinely don't feel that there will be another referendum in the foreseeable future on this particular issue, on Article 41. Going back to 2016, the government then said they were going to hold a referendum. And again in 2018, so there have been numerous committees have looked at this, made recommendations. It was the potential here to move consciously towards more inclusivity in the Irish constitution. And I think there's huge disappointment that the way that it was framed and the way that people were engaged with did not lead to a success. And I think on the basis of looking at what past committees have recommended, yes, the term durable relationship, for example, wasn't perfect. But in the past, various committees have looked at committed relationships, they've looked at intimate relationships, and they've looked at various different options. Yeah, but it's not good, and sorry to cut across you, it is not good when those that are put in front of the media to try and articulate this can't do a very good job of it. You know, and sometimes really we're quite confrontational even by you simply asking that question. I think it's important that people know, well, what is a durable relationship? And I don't think that was explained adequately. I think the term durable relationships, and I know many advocates of the no vote talked about the fact that this was coming from the European courts, and it has been used in the European courts, but it's also been used in the Irish courts in terms of an expression. But I think the one thing that the government didn't, it didn't really put across to people was that the Constitution is the overarching values, it's the ethos, it's symbolic, it's not the ground level law, there's already legislation in place. No, but even the Attorney General, and that information was withheld from us, even the Attorney General in their advice had serious questions over durable. That would, and before I bring John back in, what is it about the durable relationship, that language that concerned you? Was it, were there floodgates you were afraid might open, or why, what was it that bothered you about that terminology, Mary-T? Well, the lack of clarity in what it was was the first thing, and how it can be applied to other aspects of Irish society in relation to the immigration and what family reunification is. No matter what we're doing, we need plans, we need a contract, we need structures in place to know what something means. So we have to have pointers to know when we vote yes, it means this. There were no pointers, there were no clarity, there were no fences to tell us. This reminds me though a little bit about a meme or that was being shared around on Twitter where people were aghast at the price of electricity, and it was a table that we were the top of, right? And the actual figure for the electricity here was about 30 cents above what we're actually paying, right? But people were sharing as if it were a fact. You're saying people were concerned about the ramifications in terms of immigration, but I'd love to ask everyone in here really, do they currently know what the laws are in terms of family reunification? And I would say majority people don't, because a lot of this is already provided for. But the same people would tell you that cohabitation couples, was that not enough to clarify what was needed? Irish society, to make it on the same power as marriage, that's what scared people. Durable relationships on the same level as marriage created huge confusion and possible consequences in inheritance laws, and taxation law, and in family structures. And I don't think I'm not charging Mary with this, John, but I think really this became, you know, woke versus unwoke, traditional versus progressive liberal, versus conservative. It's everything nowadays, every conversation we have seems to end up being really pitched in that space. Is that how? You see, no matter how progressive you want to become, you go back to the constitution, which was framed 87 years ago. And until we actually do a total rewrite of that constitution, we're not going anywhere. Because as Mary T says there, you know, there's need for change. There's a whole need that really, the constitution can't deal with that. And any attempt to change the constitution leaves people very, very confused, particularly from the Catholic Church puts their oars in. And you begin to wonder, Michael McDowell led the campaign for the North Side very eloquently and very judiciously. But you have to talk to the people at their level. You can talk about durability, that stuff and the other thing. That's just to relate to only one brand of paint 30 years ago. To introduce that now only adds confusion to the public mind. Because they just don't relate to that there. There's issues been asked there, as Mary T also said, about, you know, had we carried this, what would it have meant? Would it have included a single mother and her children within the family unit? The answer is, no. Would it have given a right to inheritance in a will if a spouse died? The answer, no, it wouldn't. There's all of these kind of things here that are, you know, it was badly written, it was badly framed, it was badly thought out. And as Siobhan said, it's been talked about for 30 years. It just shows how constrained we are within the whole terms of the Constitution because one change has a minor effect on the other. Remember, it's not that many years ago since we voted for equal marriage and for divorce. And that should feed into change because you're actually voting for change further down the road. But the Constitution is preventing that from happening. And I've been advocating for years and years that it's not the people that's wrong. They're confused by the constraints that's placed on them within the Constitution. That is the voice of John McIntyre. You're tuned to an extended one o'clock news here. We're live from the Oral Legislature Center in Lethercanny. Counting is well underway now for the family and care referendums. Just for those switching on, it would appear to be a no-no locally in Donegal and a no-no nationally. Our guests are Mary T. Sweeney, Siobhan Cullen, Paddy Rooney and as you've just heard there from John McIntyre. We'll be back with more from the aura after we take this quick break. It's hard to say thanks for a lifetime of love with just one roast dinner. But the M&S Mother's Day dining comes pretty close. It serves four with a choice of main and three sides for just 22 euro. And if my kids are listening, I would choose the roast beef with herb butter, pigs in blankets, beef dripping roast potatoes and spring greens cavaloneera and peas please and thank you. This is not just a dining. 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My thoughts are, as I've said, Greg, that it's unlikely there will be another referendum in the foreseeable future. Even with that commitment, yeah. Even with that commitment because I think obviously for political parties, you know, their main priority is voting in forthcoming elections and unless they decide to make fundamental changes to the framing of the referendum but based on the committees that have looked at this in the past and the various different recommendations that have been made, as I've already said, in terms of durable relationships, they've already considered lots of different options but the fact of the matter is that 43% of children are born outside of marriage and it needs to be looked at and I'm actually pleased to hear that Sinn Fein have said that today but I genuinely don't feel there will be another referendum unless something fundamental changes in terms of how this is framed. Mary T, the conversation seems to be and this is the argument that was made by Leo Veracar, we've heard Siobhan talk of it there about the way Ireland is now, you know what I mean? Is that part of maybe what this is all about to that people don't necessarily want to accept that, that maybe they want to see a return to more traditional values, traditional family setups? I think it's something much simpler. I think there's a control movement of a certain perhaps extreme feminists that are pushing to get rid of the concept of what displeases them in relation to women in Irish society. And now I knocked at doors in Letter Kenny and when I spoke to many single mothers, as soon as I said, listen, I am asking people for a no vote because of my concerns, the single mothers on the door said to me, I'm here with three kids and I'm voting no in this. It's also about lack of confidence in the government and it's about lack of confidence in that the last four years alone in power, what have they really done for the carers or for the single mothers? You know, what support is there out there for them? There's not a lot of support out there. And if you look at the mothers at the moment, the families at the moment with the housing crisis, people getting eviction notices because their homes have been taken off them. Young woman this week, she's two kids expecting her third, her and her family working really hard, paying their rent, because they can't get social housing, they're five years on the list. What have they done for those families living in Letter County with children, for those carers living in around Donegal? There's nothing really being done to really elevate the support for those people in communities with the respite care. They're closing their nursing homes, their childcare places are getting harder to get, support and relief and residential respite care for people with family members with disabilities. They've been neglected and left out of the debate completely. Paddy Rooney, we've talked about the durable relationships type word and the way that was phrased. Strive to, the way it was framed for the government to strive to support carers, the way the reference to carers seemed really quite narrow within the house, people effectively saying this means that the government isn't gonna care for anyone outside of it, nursing homes are gonna close, the sky's gonna come falling down. Did they get that wrong too? Well, you see, that seemed to have annoyed a lot of people, Greg, because the Citizens Assembly, when they put forward their proposal in 2018 to the government, they wanted to insert the word obliged to support into the awarding of the referendum, but the government in its wisdom then decided to change that and endeavor to support, I think, was what they put in. And it sort of means nothing then because it was very sort of wishy-washy. I suppose one of the things that struck me in the last week of the campaign is that the people who are campaigning were doing it with much more energy and much more enthusiasm than people that were doing it on behalf of the S side for whatever reason. I mean, Sarah Kerry, a columnist in the Independent last week, she said that she was going to be a no-no voter. And the way she described it was that she was not going to vote for a lie, something similar to what Mary T. Sweeney was saying here, because she said that 95% of people who are caring for an elderly relative or a family member with a disability, whether it be an adult or a child, it is a woman that's doing it. And she referred to her own time when she took time out of work to have children. And then when she went back to work, it was a woman who come into the house to look after her children. It was a woman who come into the house to tidy up and to clean up, that it's women that are doing it. So what is the point of taking the word mother and motherhood? Because they have very little credence at the way things are. And now that they were actually going to be anonymized and taken out of the Constitution, so she said that she wasn't prepared to vote for a lie. And I think for that particular reason, the S-Campaign, where they might have started off in a very firm footing at the very outside, we'd say the good part of a month ago or whatever, the longer the time went on, the less momentum they had, and the more momentum that the no-campaign had. Another question this raised for me, John, and I'll put this to you, and everyone can have an opinion, of course, but you do polling with the Draconal Tribune you have done and go to great lengths to ensure it's as representative of the reality as possible. I saw polls early February that suggested that yes would sail it, and then there was a poll towards the 26th year, tried to get it up here, which again said that though the gap was narrowing, that yes was still very likely to prevail. When they came out, I couldn't understand where this information was coming from, I didn't buy it, and now these polls have proven to be completely inaccurate. I don't imagine there's been that big a swing in that period of time, surely. The early polls forever, they came from, and I'm not quite sure, there were 70, 30, there was going to be a yes, yes vote, but at the end of the day, people held their own council, there weren't any, like I'm not aware of any pollings I've been done. No, the type of Red Sea polls and that sort of thing, I'm not aware that they actually happened, but like at the end of the day, the people went out there and just did what they thought was right. And I think the polls are really quite important, because even yesterday when a government is arguing that it's going to do something, it will often lean on a recent opinion poll that would give rise to the opinion that this is what the public want, right? They're driven by them, they're driven by them, they're absolutely driven by them, but not this time, the government literally switched off, all the main parties switched off. It was literally a non-event politically. I think the politicians realized from very early out, back last Christmas time, that this was not going to go for them. Did the likes of the women's center and other groups, I wonder, Siobhan feel like they've been sort of, were hung out to dry a little bit in that, you know, even some of the government spokespersons on the referendum, all of a sudden disappeared from media. Do you know what I mean? I think there's a kind of left, you guys, I don't know, these are all individual, but carrying the can on this a little bit. Certainly the National Women's Council of Ireland feels that way, and given the fact that this was a much debated point 87 years ago when the constitution was drafted, the gender stereotyping contained in article 41.2 was debated then. It's been debated many times over the years, and it's even been picked up by the UN as a potential breach of the convention on the elimination of discrimination against women back in 2013. So it's very disappointing that people have voted no for the potential to remove gender stereotyping from the constitution. But I do feel that... But what is the gender stereotyping there, sorry? When you say that, is it that women are primarily carers? The two references. One is to women's role within the home, and the other is to mother's duties within the home. But it recognizes that they do, and we'll always have a... You know, a lot of women I know are very proud of that. Absolutely. They don't see it as a sexist language. Do you know what I mean? And when it was being described as sexist language by the likes of Barry Cowan and others, that actually got people's backs up saying, no, no, we don't need you speaking our behalf. We have a special role, and we like that it's recognized. If you want to widen it, do, but don't chop us out of it. And I think widening it is the point. I think parents and family members have important roles within the home, but I think it's wrong to gender stereotype as argued by the National Women's Council, as argued by Mary McElise last week. I think there is an agreement that there are men within the home undertaking duties in relation to family life. I think that the mistake that the government made was, back in 2013, by the way, it was suggested that we just delete that provision from the Constitution. And then the next committee to look at it suggested that we replace it with the word parents, or with mothers and fathers. And there were lots and lots of different options looked at. And where I think the government went wrong on this one is they conflated it with carers. And obviously that got the back up of a lot of people who are carers on the basis that they thought that this was... But they could have called it, they could have said mothers, fathers, guardians, caregivers. There were lots of options. But the fact that they said in their proposed amendment that we're going to strive to support carers obviously did not go down well with a lot of people who have caring responsibilities. But just to finish that point, Greg, carers are currently not recognized in the Constitution at all. And this was an opportunity for carers to be recognized. And that, unfortunately, now will continue. Carers won't be recognized. Do you not think then there was a responsibility on the likes of some of the groups that you've referenced and that we know to actually say, we're not actually going to go, yes, yes on this, because, you know what I mean? Like I would look to those groups to sort of give me some guidance on it, you know? I would have to say, there is an argument there that, you know, don't vote yes, yes, if you don't think this is the perfect wording. But I tend to agree with the position of National Women's Council, which is, it's not perfection, it's progression. It's the one opportunity we have in 30 years, it's been discussed that we might amend the Constitution. And this is the one opportunity we have to remove the gender stereotype. Mary, Mary T, you know, I saw you nodding at the corner of my eyes, I was, you know, putting the points to Siobhan that women didn't really feel that they needed this language. They don't feel it's sexist. It's something they're proud of, actually, this kind of recognition. More nonsense in all my life, in my opinion, because I think that women are very aware of their role in the home. And I think irrelevant, whether they're mothers by birth or mothers by choice or mothers by adoption or by fostering or mothers by default as in grandparents or aunts or neighbors. I think I'm very proud to be a woman and the woman that I know in my life that how dare anybody try and write out women out of protection, not mothers, right? The only reference to mothers in our Constitution, whoever thought in government, and it's sad for me that women were out trying to get women and the people of Ireland to ignore the value of mothers and our protection in our Constitution. It saddens me terribly. Margaret McGehan on Facebook says, mothers have won the day. Happy Mother's Day to all mothers, thanks to all who sensibly voted no and no. And thank you, Mary T. Paddy, do you wanna have a quick comment on that before we go to the break, then? You see, John referenced earlier that the Constitution is 87 years old and that's a long, long time ago. But Ireland now is a very, very different place from the time in the mid-30s that Amy D. Valera was having the Constitution drafted. In fact, Ireland now in society in Ireland, there's no relationship whatsoever to what was going on at that particular time. And I suppose this was an exercise to try and bring about some kind of relevancy. But fundamentally, has life changed greatly? Like, you know, people strive to be in a family. You know, the majority of families are heterosexual. Do you know what I mean? I mean, obviously society has changed in terms of technology and everything, but the fundamentals do the wider population really accept, you know, that position and actually say, well, it is the way it is so we need to change it so everything goes. I'm not really quite sure that's what the... You see, there's a whole load of things here. First of all, back then in the 1930s, if anybody had a job, it was likely that there was only one person in the house, most likely the man or the father, whatever, the husband that was working. Nowadays, I don't know what the mix is now, but in most families now, mom and dad are working. Secondly, when Ireland joined the EU, the referendum in 1973, there was a whole raft of legislation that the country had to take on board and it was around equality legislation, anti-discrimination legislation, employment equality act. All of that stuff didn't come around because it was driven by political parties in Ireland at the time. It was something that we inherited from you as a result of joining the European Union and we had to do that. There's a whole different mix now about gender and what that is, and don't get me into that now because I won't be able to... Do you see, that's the thing is, on that issue, and I think we're not going to get into it, is the public hasn't really actually... The public was taken down a path to some extent. I think it wants to go back up the path a little bit. Yet we have things like school curriculums, which have been formulated from three or four years ago where not everyone was really clued into how they were thinking. That's going to be locked in now. Do you know what I mean? That's where I think what people feel we're trying to train laws and constitutions to accept a mindset that was there three or four years ago, but I think there's a bit of a pulling back on that now. And you can see it on social media every day, at JK Rowling in a massive spot with India Willoughby. And you can see that conversation couldn't happen three years ago because JK Rowling would have been ripped from Twitter and every other social media. And you see, the problem with all this, the relationship between the constitution, is it a law book or is it not? Because there's one article in the constitution, I think it's, it's an article 15 or whatever, which sets out that the only forum or institution in the state that can enact legislation is the houses of the Iraqis. So the constitution itself is sort of the grandparents of law and the only thing it makes is about who can enact legislation and any legislation that's enacted can't be repugnant of the constitution. Okay, so that's sort of the rules. Maybe we're in a situation that we don't need to do anything with us at all. We don't need to have a referendum that if we have issues that is the place of the houses of the Iraqis to bring about any change if change is needed, or any updating of updating is needed, that we don't need to go through all of this because John Offair, he was saying to me about that not this was a vote on the referendum, but it was also the electorate out there trying to give the government a bloody nose or whatever. So they were voting by proxy for something else if you know what I mean. Okay. And perhaps the thing is far too serious to be to be true. I take what you're saying in relation to the bloody nose thing. But the end of the day, if you add the three government parties together and Sinn Féin, and if they were loyal subjects to those parties, it's 60 or 70%. So a lot of people voted against Mary Lou MacDonald within Sinn Féin. A lot of people within Finnegale voted against Leo Fradker and onwards. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think I just fully accept that this was a referendum on the government because a lot of people have to step outside their sort of political bubble maybe to vote a certain way. I'm not saying you're saying that. I'm not contradicting you on that. John, before a break, just a quick point on this, if you don't mind. The quick point here is that the constitution is a set of articles to be interpreted by the legislature in Dublin, the Houses of the Eritus, and that is where it rests. There are certain things that are enshrined there that must only be changed by referendum, and that, more than anything else, includes the number of TDs that we have. Is there a responsibility, though, that when you are putting in legislation that is going to be determined by the courts or Houses of the Eritus, that it is, that it's not so broad that we actually don't know as to what... Everything must have reference to the constitution. Mary T was talking about mothers there and grandparents and all that and who's denied this, that, and the other thing. Article 15, or Article 41 of the constitution states, all citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law. If you interpret that, why would you need all these other articles? Siobhan, you're a lawyer. You probably have a more balanced view on that, a more experienced view than I have. But if you reference that one alone, why do we need all these others? As far as I'm concerned, the constitution is much too close to families and their decision to live. I mean, why should the constitution, or indeed the legislation of the country, have very much to do with who you live with or what status you have in so long as you're staying within a specific set of guidelines? Nowadays, they're more or less coming from the UN and from the European Court of Justice in The Hague. That's why I say from the very beginning that the constitution is not fit for purpose in 1924 because it was effectively a document created by men, for men, it was a Catholic constitution for a Catholic people and that's about it. And if you want to stretch it a bit further, it was a Catholic constitution to keep Fianna Fowler in power forever more. And that's where we've been down these 87 years. Okay, thank you. John McAteer there. This is extended lunchtime news here on Highland Radio. We're live from the Orolesia Center. It'll be business as usual from two o'clock, but we will be back with more from our guest, Siobhan Cullen, chair of the Women's Central Electric County, that association calling for a yes-yes. Mary T. Sweeney, candidate for Aintu in the local elections who advocated for a no-no. Paddy Rooney, regular contributor to Highland and political analyst. And of course, the last voice you heard there was John McAteer, editor of the Tricolon newspaper. 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On this week's deal debate I'll be joined by Senior Hurlin Joint Captain Connor Garland as Dunnegal will travel to Roscommon this Sunday for their Crunch League of Counter and Division 2B. Also on the show Top G columnist Cahero Keane of the Irish News and Dara Bonner of the Dunnegal News to look back at the All-Ireland Schools finals from the weekend and to assess where Championship rivals Dunnegal and Derey set five games in the next league. All this and more just after the CMBM News this Monday and podcastinheilemedial.com. The deal debate with Sister Sarah's Ladder Keane serving food you'll love till 9pm daily in Sarah's kitchen. OK, you're very welcome back to this special extended one o'clock news we're live from the Aura Leisure Centre in Ladder Keane counting well underway for the family and care referendums. And we come to you as the Green Party leader has admitted the case the government presented to the public didn't win in the referendums on family and care. Minister Aiman Ryan initially said there was still a long way to go but has now conceded it looks like both referendums will be defeated they are going to be defeated. Excuse me. And the early indications of course of being and to maintain that Dunnegal is going to return and no, no, right. Mary T. Sweeney we've been talking a lot today and a lot in the run up to this you know about the importance of the Constitution about the importance of democracy and what have you but one way or other it's going to be a tiny population a tiny percentage of the population really that's going to determine that we're not going near the Constitution and conversely if it was a yes, yes a very small amount of people you know when you look at the turnout and then you spit that between yes and no. Is it time that we relook at that if it's so important should we be compelling people to vote as we see in some other countries or have a core and whereby you know it has to reach a certain number before we make changes to this very important document. Well I think the first thing I would look at is the amount of money that the government decided to give to one side of the argument to the S side and that was 23 million spent on it that what would have been better that money would have been better spent on many things given to the carers and those that need respite care to start with. The next thing is in relation to that I think there's a very healthy it's something we've already discussed and into or our dash is coming up now in April and it's one of the things we feel that there should be maybe a quota to be met to make it of significance that it would warrant a specific turnout. I mean you go to a council election sorry you go to a council meeting you know and a decision about whether or not to fill a pot hole on the R246 can't be made unless there's a certain amount of councillors there to where would you set that figure 50% plus? Well that's something we've actually talked about already because we have our our dash and we need to put in the motions for the our dash coming up so it's something we're in the middle of discussing and that I would think that there is a very strong possibility that we will be putting that forward now after our our dash. What do you think of Paddy Rooney? I'm not so sure about that because in democracy I mean we have the choice whether we want to vote or whether we don't want to vote I know our forefathers they didn't have the right to vote and they had to fight for the right to vote but I mean there is choice or discretion in the middle of that we've had with the exception of these two referendum or referendum that have just taken place yesterday we've had 38 ones previous to that and you can really divide them into two groups one that have that are sort of associated with sort of social issues or conscience or whatever like the divorce the termination of pregnancy same sex marriage and all of those and then you have all the others like the various EU treaties and joining the EU and the adoption and the tax and the Senate and so on and so forth but turnout in social based referendum has always been much higher than the other ones we I think accepted various treaties like the Nice Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty and all that on quite low turnouts so this turnout it's nothing exceptional it's not the first time that we've fallen through the floor or whatever here but it is a very low score if the I mean we're talking about sort of a less than 40% turnout are we it's not going that way John have you I know you've been looking for that looking for those details we're probably looking at 36-38% at a high and probably 34% at a low that would be acceptable enough I wouldn't agree with the idea of if you don't vote that you're fine as is the case in Australia we should have a very strong democratic mandate through the parties the parties are not engaging there's no point in you saying otherwise Mary people are not going to meetings I don't think I spoke to one Finnegell, Labour or Sinn Féin representative I'm not sure any sort to come on the programme Caroline might correct me if I do I'll address that on Monday but I don't believe that there's a clamoring like at the end of the day if there's a strong dynamic within parties there would be people attending their meetings there's been AGMs of the main parties taking place there's 15 and 20 people at them across Donegal there's something fundamentally large wrong at the grassroots and I believe I know what it is they're just used as cannon fodder for organising campaigns going out canvassing on doorsteps politicians are not communicating at all what's the grassroots I'm going to ask you a question I'm going to ask you all a question in relation to that but just if you don't mind Siobhan Cullen are you happy with the way we decide things currently could you see an argument for a minimum to make sort of these kind of significant changes or is people choosing not to vote part of the democratic process I think it's unfortunate that constitutional referenda become political issues I don't think they should be politicised I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about the role of the Constitution and that's partly because the government hasn't succeeded in getting the message out there that this is a symbolic value but I think it's important it's of symbolic value legislation at ground level can be enacted and has been enacted to recognise cohabitation to recognise unmarried fathers and the case law that's already been referenced there is moving in the direction of greater inclusivity the Constitution however is of symbolic value if we look at things like the marriage bar that happened over the years where women had to leave public sector jobs when they got married there's still a gender pay gap there are still less women jobs across the sectors so I think that this is much more than a political issue and I do feel it's very unfortunate that people who clearly had issues with the current government have used this as an opportunity to vote no in relation to that Siobhan I am genuinely impartial here I don't think those who campaign for no-no are doing themselves any favour by saying that this was a referendum on the government because I think they should stand on their arguments and say this is actually really about the compelling arguments we made rather than you don't like Leo or you don't like you know I think they're doing them as a disservice I don't think it's a good strategy there I again and I can only go by from what I see in the show that I present on what I do Paddy the word from all of you on this there does seem to be a genuine detachment between politics the majority of politics and Mary will argue ain't he aren't like that but the decision makers the civil service and what have you and the general sort of population and I can give a million examples as to why I believe that to be the case is the system politics completely out of touch with your average person if that is the case and you know why I'm not going to disagree with you on that but it's an extraordinary thing if that's the case because if you take the population at the moment and most people under 40 years of age have finished or completed primary and secondary education and a very high proportion will have gone on to third level in whatever shape and form so we're in a situation now in Ireland where the population has never been as well educated as they've been and we also have a situation where they have access to information through all social media and so on and so forth and information knowledge is power Greg so people know that the political system and elections and so on and so forth that they know what's working and they know what's not working and this is the way that they input to it I mean it's in a situation if we were to go back 50 years in this country where there was very few people went to third level education many many people didn't finish second level education but I bet you as John was saying they were the people that was filling the halls they were at political meetings and so on and so forth and they thought at the time that they had some direct input to policy making or that they had access to their TD to local TDs now we seem to have a situation where they're actually empowered themselves through knowledge and through access to education that they're actually swinging the the opposite way and that they're divorcing themselves for politics and they're leaving it to themselves or they're leaving it to the civil service or the system or whatever it's an extraordinary thing actually that that's the case but every so often of course like what happened with the water charges and that people do become exercised and energized by things there was thousands and thousands of people out on the on the street around that one particular issue and such which was the strength of public imagination and involvement at the time that they got that overturned so every so often the public do become buzzed up. Well let me say I actually think in terms of migration that that is the current water water fight right but because of the language that's used and what have you is people don't want to express that or speak public about it for fear of being tarnished one way or another and a lot of I think politicians don't actually get that that's what is a key issue for an awful lot of people and then you get these polls that come out and back out what the government thinks but if you know you know that people are very very vexed on issues like that and it's not because people are coming in it's because they don't have access to a house because they don't have access to a GP they don't have access to an acute hospital service you know what I mean? Oh yeah absolutely yes like I think that's would be actually by coincidence an example of what I would put forward as the reason why I think you know the institutions and the government and everything and immediately actually are out of touch with the public. Mary T I don't know what you feel about that Well I think going back to your point about the no vote and what it means to the government I think the people saw through the government I think they felt the government were trying to hoodwink them they heard the reports got out that they were refused access to the meetings of the minutes and I don't think I think the householders at home sitting at home saying we want to see what those debates entailed and what came out there what are the financial implications and the inheritance laws and how will we be impacted by this? But that could never be answered at this point surely No but they could have seen that this causes the pros and the cons they could have met up But Siobhan I mean is it justifiable that we're actually arguing what possibly could happen I mean do you think that's is that the way it should be or do you know what I'm on about like there's no way you could ever word any of these two things really to cover every eventuality and then to make sure things that people don't want to happen won't happen and things that you know I mean that's not how the system works does it? The constitution is of symbolic value and I think that the part of the no campaign and I don't want to generalise because there's been so many different aspects to the no voices but part of it was really jumping on the bandwagon of kind of telling people that certain things are going to change in relation to inheritance and tax and also the migration bandwagon and none of all of those require legislative reform and there has been no suggestion whatsoever that there would be legislative changes I mean it was two days of debate on throuples in the doll? Yeah absolute nonsense on throuples People have thrown in polygamy and they've thrown in throuples and this is all part of No one can guarantee that Mary T I don't have a legal background but nothing can be guaranteed I presume that's the answer I think it's fairly obvious that we're living in a society where more than 40% of children are born outside of marriage that we need to move forward but we're not going to move into recognising throuples I think that's nonsense All those arguments have been had and very well articulated John if that's all right? Well I do believe that the people have voted it's an anti-government vote no matter how we look at it you have three parties from your government that has never quite worked with any degree of cohesion everybody has to be singing off the same hymnship and people have said to hell with that we've had enough of it John McIntyre thank you very much indeed it's been lovely having you on the show Siobhan Collin chair of the women's centre thank you so much for calling in and taking part it's been really really good Paddy as always it's a pleasure you know that yourself and Mary T. Sweeney thank you ok and that's where we leave this special live from the Aura Leisure Centre I want to thank Joe who looked after the technical side of things Caroline and Shannon who helped out with the production and Donna Marie as well who's down here covering it from a news perspective as well ok we're back with you on the 9th London show Monday morning at 9 we return to the regular programming here after the news at 2