 Kind of lay out for me what autonomous vehicles are So I mean the general gist of it is Think like the skyway the skyway is automated train Autonomous vehicles basically a driverless vehicle Now how we're you know implementing it here in town we could possibly be the first public transit system to put them into revenue service in terms of mass transit And so it's a little different than you know what? Intested in San Francisco to a degree. Yeah, and I would say you know you bring up the skyway is As an autonomous vehicle and I never thought about it that way But it is autonomous like it doesn't have a conductor or anybody else running it you just get in it and it runs I Guess the difference is that like it runs on a track? Whereas like we're talking about shuttles that don't run on a track and will actually and please correct me if I'm wrong But we'll actually be in traffic with the average Jacksvillian. Yeah, I mean the skyway is automated So it's a little bit different, but yeah, so we're essentially talking about driverless vehicles that will not Will possibly operate in mixed traffic, which is a one of the big challenges And that's why you haven't really seen you know this deployed at this point in time because While the autonomous technology may be let's say safe and in of itself in a controlled environment We're introducing something into a human controlled environment and as you know, we are totally unpredictable so a lot of the testing has to try to Formulate and predict what? Humans will do so that's going to be the big challenge here and and that's probably one of the big concerns I would say that a lot of people are happening down this one is how are we going to do that and then? Can we do that at a cost that makes sense for the taxpayer? Yeah, and so can you kind of lay out what JTA's plans are how to use these because if I understand correctly The shuttles right they're not like individual like cars So there's shuttles that go to the skyway or go to other JTA hubs like how does that work? So Essentially it is a a guided system. You just won't see it like there has to be sensors And things that are put in place to make sure that these vehicles stay in their lanes But but basically the first phase of the what's being called the ultimate urban circle later is the Bay Street innovation project is the basic on Iran from Really la villa down to the stadium along Bay Street Right now. I guess the plan is to operate that in mixed traffic But eventually After that project is complete There's a second phase that looks at the conversion of the skyway into an elevated version of this particular Transit solution and then the third phase or four phase will then be On ground extensions into adjacent neighborhood downtown such as a springfield Riverside in San Marco Let me ask you I guess that the big question that comes of mind when we talk about this is I mean Autonomous vehicles are the new shiny thing But why not just have shuttles with drivers in them like why why why go to autonomous? This is about is it cheaper? Is it safer like what like what's the drive behind that? Well, I think I think and I can't speak for JTA on that I do do believe is the drive there is a lot about innovation I mean they clearly state that whenever you hear about this this project But I also would say from the community perspective that there is a segment of the community that says Hey, we just need transit like yeah Is great if something like this can work But really but really we just need to give me to be you just need to figure that out Give me a bus stop right. Give me a bus stop with some shelters or give me a you know proven transit solution that works, too Yeah, I balanced those two recently. I was I was at a rally where the UAW President This is in California was was talking about the The upcoming fight to keep Drivers behind the wheels of Semis, you know 18 wheelers and that like there's a push by big business to to turn those into autonomous vehicles and You know the crowd there was very much. It was a pro-union crowd It was very much against the idea of turning the 18 wheelers into Autonomous vehicles. I thought a little bit more after I left that rally and just started thinking about like the plus Benefits for having autonomous drivers. So we know that like when you're talking about 18 wheelers that you know These guys and and women are expected to drive Really long hours to like kind of hit their their marks and especially like in the world that we live in today Where everybody wants everything that the day they order it they wanted to show up on their doorstep so like these guys are really being really pushed to the limits of What's Possible for human being behind the wheel and so in that aspect you think like yeah autonomous seems like it's going to be Safer and quicker But then when you pull back a little bit like the two big things that come to mind for me Is that like it may be quicker, but also like what you were saying human beings on the road are unpredictable And so do you want a computer making decisions? split-second decisions When it comes to people And to like the human cost of like what it's going to do to our economy to remove People from behind vehicles basically eliminating jobs, so it's kind of a two-fold thing that I'm asking you there like one is you know when it comes to like safety concerns and the big pluses of having AI I Autonomous vehicles Versus like the human factor Do you think that's going to weigh in on in this conversation with JTA in the city? Yeah to a degree. I mean my brother's a truck driver, so you notice very well, and you know when I was down in Central Florida They ended down there. We were you know, platoon in that type of technology But when it boils down to What's proposed here in town the reality of it is we're not to a point and it won't be happening anytime soon Where there's just this hundred percent? autonomous Environment, so yes here locally We're going to have to address how we deal with the human factor and there's no amount of money you could throw at any type of technology to To change a driver who gets frustrated to something driving 15 miles an hour in front of them, right? Right, exactly. It is what it is. Yeah The other side of it is the job side, right? You know when we talk about these things like I tend to think that you know with truck drivers There's a lot of people that do truck driving and that creates a middle class It's a middle-class salary and we're watching how the middle class in America keeps getting squeezed right like it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller and So earlier you were talking about how JTA is always talking about innovation and I think innovation is great But I guess I have some questions about when innovation leaves people behind it feels like we're at the precipice right now and like do we make the decision that like our economy and Continuing to have a strong middle class or creating, you know a strong middle class is important Versus like innovation for innovation's sake. I don't know the answer to that. You know, yeah, I think Locally, we don't control that You know things are gonna change as the future goes on. I mean this technology. I mean AI I mean today what you can do compared to what what was possible, you know, 10, 15 or even five years ago It's completely different. So that is gonna change and it is a challenge, especially in the African-American community Because like I used my brother for example as a truck driver That was you know, he didn't graduate high school and spent some time in prison and This was something that gave him a solution to pay for his family, you know, yeah, you know, so Yeah, I mean and if you even go back, I mean my mom was you know here in the 60s And she was a telephone operator That's disappeared. So part of this innovation thing. I think the solution is going to be we're gonna have to Also find a ways to invest in our communities and train people because I mean, yes We can have AI we can have a Thomas the vehicles and all that but somebody's got operated. Yeah agent today Yeah, you can join the conversation at 5492937 you can tweet us at FCC on air There's first first coast connected wjct.org. You can also find us on Facebook Instagram all the places We're gonna go to the phone. We've got Tim in Neptune Beach Tim. How are you this morning? Doing well. Thanks for taking my call. I just had a question about Down to Miami often and they have an automated circulator down there called the Metro mover Which has a lot of ridership and I guess I'm trying to understand why we are Looking to use or create new technology rather than just implementing what's already tried and true and I'll listen to your response off The air Tim. Thanks so much for your call thoughts Yeah, I mean if you go back to 2014-2015 when this conversation about modernized modern a modernization of the skyway, you know popped up It's been a lot of focus on the skyway end of itself But sometimes we don't really dive into the history how we got into certain conditions I mean the skyway. Yeah, it's automated people mover. It's one of three Four I guess if you count Morgantown, West Virginia, but basically Jacksonville, Detroit Miami Have one grants to experiment with this back in the back of the 1980s That original plan the skyway was always intended to be an urban circulator specifically for downtown It's never going to the beach is never going to our gal. Yeah, it's never going to these places But with that being said another portion of that Concept that was never billed out as it was supposed to be fair riders from a regional mass transit system Whether you want to call heavy rail light rail street car, whatever BRT In Miami, they had metro metro rail, which was much a fail when I was a kid Mm-hmm and in the last 20 years or so Miami and South Florida got really aggressive around transit-oriented development around those stations So what's happening with the metro moving while you see more ridership there is you have land use that supports The transit system there, then you have regional transit Technologies that are working together to feed your riders into it. So in the skyway in particular, we don't have that yet So one of these challenges Oh kind of one of the things about the skyway conversation is you can make this AV you can make this a street car You can make this BRT if we're not feeding it with the riders from areas outside of downtown Probably still gonna struggle if we continue to incentivize businesses to leave downtown where it's probably gonna struggle so But in Jacksonville, we we generally Most people kind of see the skyway and they think Chicago L they think you know the New York subway and it's not any of those things No, no, it's literally the people mover you take from the airport Terminal to get to your airside term. That's literally what it is. It's a horizontal element Yeah, I you know as you're talking like I feel like a light went off in my head because What you're basically saying I don't know why I never thought about this I City planning is not something I spend a whole lot of time contemplating but as you're as you're laying all this out what what's really apparent to me is that City planning is the key like the way you talk about Miami and that they they feed This transit system and so like if if they are incentivizing Businesses and development in the places where people are going to get on like it feeds it It also helps, you know With traffic and all sorts of things like it's it's it's a thought process that's going on there And not not that Jacksonville does not have a thought process going on I'm just saying that like In order for the skyway to actually work There has to be more thought process about how to feed it and and in what ways to feed Yeah, how everything works when I was in the Northeast Florida Regional Transportation Commission Some of the biggest counties that push for mass transit were places like Putnam and we don't think about it here But you know for them their agent population all the medical centers are here So they're looking for ways to get you know, they're their connection by rail to Jacksonville Residents have access to our services. Yeah, and we're gonna go to the phone. We've got mark in St. Augustine mark How are you this morning? Real good, you know, I'm really skeptical about this. I've been here forever I was here when they were talking about building the skyway express I thought it was stupid idea back then and I'm really skeptical like I said now But my question is you know, you mentioned sensors. I mean, how much is this thing gonna cost? It's are you having to bury sensors in the middle of the road? Do you have to you know, rip up streets for you know a year and a half to do this or are they gonna be posted on on Towers or or or what as a secondary question is I think you just kind of answered it Why are we going the first leg is gonna down be down in Bay Street? You know, it seems like that's very limited use Yeah, it's not gonna do anything for football games not the limited amount of cars you're gonna have available I mean, why not take it to the mall or down South Side Boulevard where there's 10,000 apartments? Hey mark, thanks so much for calling in And that's what do you think? All right? So let me I'm gonna go about this little backwards. So it's never going to the mall again It's a urban circulator or more of a last mile solution So this is the thing that gets you from a if an actual transit station to your last destination So it was never going to South Side Boulevard that you you're looking at a different type of Transit solution to get you to a point like that with this bus or rail or whatever Number two, I think you mentioned something about the cost so based Historically, there was always a plan to extend the Skyway out to the stadium You have the Hyatt, which is basically our convention center even though we debate where we want to do with that We have all this Activity that or things that we want to see along the shipyards and four seasons going up Getting ready to redo the stadium some type of way. So there there was always a historical push to have that line extended Now with that being said bait JTA also won federal dollars and they secure a funding to do this initial phase, which is Bay Street Now that I guess the challenge in that is going to be I would I would suggest that even if you wanted to do a streetcar or even if you wanted to do a bus You need dedicated lanes or dedicated right away, right? That didn't that conversation really didn't take place in years ago and now I think I know JTA recently put out a Video where they talked about the need to do that But now you got a different challenge in that to do that on Bay Street specifically now You're talking about taking away the parallel the parking of the businesses that are there and it's counterproductive to the downtown business environment cost was a Few months ago. It was 44 million or so for the Bay Street segment. I know recently that jumped up to 65 million But you're not going to have you know dedicated lanes You're literally gonna have a bunch of sensors and cameras kind of station along the court And and there's also there's also more things that You know, they're playing you know planning to look at from a technology perspective Then just moving, you know autonomous vehicles down the street But it goes back to this capacity issue when you talk about the stadium if you got 12 the 15 vehicles that you know Macy, you know t in the 15 people You know, we all know if you're running the 15 to 25 miles an hour You're not moving any type of you know Demand or crush that's coming out of it. You know stadium Yeah, we got Joe on the line from Fleming Island Joe. How you doing this morning? Hey, good morning I'm so used to saying good morning to Melissa, but good morning to you guys and congratulations on your advancement Listen, I used to live right over in the Arlington area And I think that Mayor Deegan's doing a great job by bringing autonomous Transportation to Jacksonville one of my comments on the air many times Was that in order for Jacksonville to become a major city? They're going to have to have some sort of mass transportation rather than buses my idea was and if maybe one of our handlers were listening was to create a Transportation hub and that would be at the Regency Square Mall Which is just a dying ember, but it's also centrally located to the city Maybe they would consider that as well, but I think it's a great idea money well spent That's if you want to become a major player in the country Joe. Thanks so much for calling in What do you think about that like saying of a transportation hub and in Regency? Well, I mean we already have a transportation hub we just spent you know $80 million and so to build the JRTC in in the la villa. I'm just a great building is next to The old railroad station. So hopefully one day what we can bring, you know, inner-city rail back as as Commuter rail comes online those things. Yes, so we have a hub Now there's no reason that Regency can't one day be you know a regional hub You know, I think to the caller's point is that like in order for Jacksonville to really, you know Be a city of the future. We have to figure out this transportation thing But specifically what we're talking about with autonomous shuttles That's that that was that's never going to be the solution to it at least this program that we're talking Yeah, I want to circle back to that because then that that gets more into a confusion of what mass transit is This is not light rail. This is not bus rapid transit. This is not the subway. You see in New York or in DC This is the thing that gets you to that right. So we we're not having that conversation yet about What that is to get you to a big city level and technically you could argue already big city so As we go along this path of what this project becomes that's where it becomes really important to start looking at cost Because if costs keep going up and elevating at the level they are you get into a point to where you're paying the same for What could be one of those regional? mass transit projects that impact much more than downtown and the neighbors adjacent to it But you're not getting the same bang for your buck. Yeah, because you just you know You're in a much smaller consolidated area and it's still you still suffer with the fact that you need something to feed rodders into This area to make it work. So in San Francisco and and these are it's a very different Form of transportation, but in San Francisco, there are autonomous Cars that you know basically function as an uber. I've never taken them I've seen them the cars the cars look weird. I remember like I drive and buy one the first time and I was like Why would you trick a car out like that? It does not I don't know. I I just don't find it visually appealing I think the name of the company is why more? Yeah, what Waymo? Anyway, listener you can go online if you Google like Waymo you can you'll pull up what the car looks like it's kind of strange But you know in San Francisco a lot of people hate these things and so They there's a movement by safe street rebels That they go and do things like they put cones on the hoods of cars and that basically Disables the car so they can't move I'm just curious like if we do something like that, you know autonomous shuttles here is that something we should be worried about I Let me refocus that question. I think that what the rebels out there in San Francisco are worried about is safety They think that these autonomous cars are not safe I Have no idea what the numbers are on it It seems to me like they look to be pretty safe I think you're talking about a really different thing when you talk about Teslas and their you know Autonomous drive system, but these cars seem different But there's a big concern about safety when you don't have a human being Behind the the wheel. Do you think that's a factor here in Jacksonville? It's a big factor Yeah, it's a big factor and I mean we're gonna be a test case for that when this Bay Street project is Completed, I think they have to be complete but in the 2025 or something like that but yeah, you know my advice to that from a Transportation professional perspective would be you need dedicated lanes or something to where they're in a controlled environment self-controlled environment themselves When you're mixed down in traffic, you just gonna get back into yes You're gonna have people playing around you might have a cat or something run across the street I mean who knows what happens, right? And that is a the safety challenge the technology as a whole isn't there yet and We don't know when it would be there, but you know, we are in this We're introduced into a human controlled environment and we we know we are predictable as people Yeah, but that that is the big challenge. So the solution I think to that would be dedicated lanes or dedicated Rataway, but again, that's a whole another conversation and we can actually do that here in town. Yeah last question as a Long-time Jacksvillian. Do you like Jacksvillian or Jackson? Well, you know You know Jackson is the historical word personally. I don't care You know person I must say you're on my side then if you don't care I'm just gonna I'm just gonna draft you So you're with me on Jacksvillian you heard it here first on First Coast Connect and as Davis is with outlets and on Jackson-Villian anyway with with all the advances coming in the future and And basically like what you see from the city How are you feeling about the the future? So to speak of Jacksonville when it comes to like urban planning and and and all of those things that that that big puzzle that You're constantly thinking about and putting the pieces together for yeah I'm very excited about Jacksonville's future. You know, we've always talked about having potential But now, you know, there's a there's a spirit in the air. I mean, I think the economy is right You know City Hall is right There's we have a big opportunity to take advantage of all the assets and culture that we've always had so I'm really excited about the future Excellent and as Davis urban planner and co-owner of the Jackson and modern cities and just an all-around Brainiac and good dude. Thank you so much for coming in. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me