 And if you notice the person involved Larry is a Larry Lasker Larry Lasker is involved with the Larry Lasker is the Okay, everybody shut up now Larry Lasker he wrote or produced he wrote he wrote and he was also involved in sneakers Yeah, Larry Lasker. I'll be referring to Larry Lasker and to Walter Parks Probably through a lot of this and and they both are the screenwriters for Wargames and for sneakers And for a while I heard Larry was trying to do a third movie to sort of finish off like a tryout of movies That kind of dealt with issues of hacking. I don't know if he's ever written a screenplay But I heard that several years ago He came to DEF CON maybe four or five years ago and nothing really came of it But he was wandering around here checking us out But it's strange at the same guys involved with two of the best movies that depict hacking and I think that's probably because he Focused also on the human element of it more than the super flashy, you know fly through the air and shoot bullets upside down So how did he come across you or how did you two even meet or tell us a little bit about why you're even qualified to be sitting here Okay, that's fine. Well first of all I'm David Scott Lewis and I came here just for DEF CON all the way from China So there's probably be some interesting questions about that as well China certainly plays a interesting role in this community for various reasons Let's see. So what happened in my time 50 years old now? I turned 50 this year And we actually started working on the screenplay for Wargames in the first quarter of 79 So next year would make 30 years where we started actually on the screenplay and the original idea that Larry and Walter were kicking around was in 78 and it was a little bit of a different model. They were looking for somebody who was a Stefan Hawking with a protege So that was the original concept that was something that Larry was really pushing it had nothing Nothing to do with hacking and the original the original thought that they were gonna have They wanted to have this Stefan Hawking guy who kind of had the unified field theory, but couldn't really communicate it So would have a protege young kid and that would that's how they were going to take it so my background prior to that is Probably like a lot of people in my age those of you that are in the 50s or so You took shop class in your seventh grade. My best shop class was Electronics took advanced electronics in the ninth grade like a lot of you hear that again in my age group You have ham radio licenses. You had ham radio licenses So I was a novice. I was an advanced had a rig two meters mostly doing two meter stuff built a Newtonian six inch telescope when I was in the sixth grade and then of course the January 75 issue of popular Electronics the one we all know about now back then I never received popular mechanics, but I did receive popular science I used to kind of think that was going to be the future now I kind of realized popular science is really science fiction. That's just sold as science fact But it was fun. It was inspirational, you know a lot of these things that turned out to be totally bogus Really turned out to be very inspirational for me. So So anyway, so I had my ham radio going on This is also during the Apollo program and such so I got into astronomy at that point And I can remember exactly what I was doing when Neil Armstrong touched on the moon Exactly what I was doing when that happened exactly when it was in the whole bit So that's a vivid memory for me and that had a profound influence on me 2001 had a bit of an influence on me as well as you might think but you know It was interesting about 2001 when you look back at it and Arthur C. Clark being one of the best hard SF writers But it's basically all wrong No orbiting weapons platforms no moon bases no man trips or human trips to Jupiter Hal is probably no closer today than it was back then and all the astronauts and cosmonauts were white So think of somebody that was probably one of the best science fiction writers and how wrong he was Now so the movie that really I find found inspiring though Even back then was the Andromeda strain even though I hadn't really no interest in molecular biology or biochemistry I'd just like to point out that while I lived in Seattle and you guys decided to nuke Las Vegas I lived in Piedmont, which is the first town to die in Andromeda strain Do remember that Piedmont, New Mexico population 68 or something So the Andromeda strain was there was more influential on me I used to read analog magazine back then the Isaac Asimov didn't have his magazine So analog magazine was my favorite and that was more of the hard SF magazine Red Sky and telescope of course Future Shock was probably the most important piece of fiction to me and again look back at Future Shock Toffler was probably 95% wrong in what he said All right as a futurist. He just totally blew it, but it was inspirational So notice that popular science wrong inspirational Future Shock inspirational even though they really kind of just missed the mark on what really happened later on so Larry and Walter We're kind of looking for somebody we had mutual friends of the William Morris agency I was living I was raised in Los Angeles, so we have mutual friends of the William or a Morris agency and somebody who's handling one of them Actually Jimmy cons the actor Jimmy cons brother Marty con his Admin it was a friend of mine, so they were kind of saying well we need somebody that's kind of like into astrophysics So I happen to be kind of at that time into astrophysics So I kind because they wanted this Stefan Hawking kind of thing so we met and I remember the first dinner We had and so on with my Jennifer by the way My Jennifer was actually oh by the way. I wasn't the inspiration and you said John I was actually the model for David Lightman what and that's that's probably an important distinction The inspiration was really this this character that never happened because it was that Stefan Hawking protege that really didn't materialize in the movie So there really was no inspiration if you know what I mean because it didn't really materialize that way So I was the model for David Lightman and then together with them help them with the screenplay So we the kind of worked out the stories So anyway, so my Jennifer was with me and I was with that that particular woman for 11 years We were high school sweethearts and we were together actually for 11 years So anyway, so we meant and then I kind of told them about hey, well, let's look at what we can do breaking into stuff so I said well, let's do that and Finding information and so on so back then they thought it was a big deal But I was using dialogue and orbit which were kind of you know, not too many people were using them back then I even remember my my idea count on dialogue was like a 10,000. So it was pretty low So I was using dialogue and orbit and BRS and getting all the information. They were pretty amazed that people could even do that So and I didn't think it was much of a big deal at all. So and then Just showing them hacking now one difference between myself and David Lightman I would say a significant difference is that I wasn't probably as much in the gaming Gaming was important to me, but it wasn't as important as it was in a driving force I was actually in high school. I was a member of the United States strategic Institute and then the armed forces communications electronic association apsia and Also the Association of old pros, which is the electronic warfare society There's a long story behind that and what happened and so on but nevertheless I was more into defense and what was going on apsia had a fairly active chapter at Sam so's headquarters Which was in El Segundo in Los Angeles and guess who the blue cube who they break into in the movie? Reports through to Sam so back then Okay, so this is all tied in together Also, the old crows was at the old Hughes aircraft facility in Culver City So that was also in Los Angeles. So I was active and all that stuff So I kind of knew that so I was kind of like a you know because I did a ham radio stuff I had the electronics background. I was getting out the soldering gun and all that kind of stuff and Handle it more so I so I knew more of the target And that's one of the things I would emphasize that David Lightman didn't really know his target that well I kind of knew the targets and I was more focused on the targets So I would say no thy target, you know if you're gonna hack obviously like spearfishing would be one example today But I mean in a general sense really try and understand that target. So that's kind of where Where I came from and that's how I got involved with them in the movie and then you would you would have these Conversations and would they say Would they ask for technical input or would they just give you big generalities like do you think it would be possible to? Break into a defense system or would they give you kind of help us draw connected dots to an idea We already have using your technical experience to backfill some place They were going to get to no matter what or did you help them get to where? No, I helped them get to it There was a place on Sunset Boulevard green tree productions is where Wargames was originally written It was originally called the genius But that really means nothing because that would apply to everybody here. That's an IQ of 120 or above So, you know, that's everybody in this audience. So but that was they weren't too good on titles None of us were too good on titles. So that was the original screenplay and was sold to Universal Universal bought it and it was a problematic It wasn't easy selling it and then it was sold to Disney Disney had no clue what to do with it and then Disney sold its MGM which ultimately made it into the movie the Universal first bought the screenplay called the Genius and the very even I would say before and the original screenplay you guys would love the original screenplay I am actually going to ask to see if we can have that just put online Because it's much more accurate in the hacking John badm who was the director that year also did blue thunder and John badm likes to Sensationalize things so and if we know it's a movie too, right? So it has to be a little more sensational than it might be in a book or in a screenplay So you guys are like the screenplay screenplay is dead on on the hacking Okay, there's no question about that and even where AI and hacking kind of come together And that's what I'm still involved with matter of fact before I forget Let me just just I mentioned this to Jeff that I'm launching a blog in kind of memory of all this and it's zero day Defense net and I'm really going to be looking at AI meets And AI in a very generic sense including genetic algorithms fuzzy systems neural nets meets Info sac so it's really a combination of those so so yeah, we actually worked and plotted out the original plot I thought the original plot that you saw on them that you ultimately wound up in the movie was too simple So we pushed this idea of having space-based weapon systems now I realize retrospectively that seems kind of stupid But if you look back at if you think of things in the context of 79 space-based weapon systems were a really hot topic So it was it was an area that was very serious even before Reagan came in with SDI It was a very hot topic then and it was an area that the US was really afraid that we were going to lose to the Soviet Union So there was a big push for this but then ultimately the screenplay and that form was just too complicated It was just you know like it like how do you get David up as an astronaut? It's just like oh, this is stupid so so so it just became too ridiculous and then it got Pretty much where you saw it here except again on the screenplay It's a lot more accurate and then bad. I'm dazzled it up. Would you say the movie classes the foreband project influenced anything? The foreband project. I think influenced probably them But that's a really good question and this has to do with the AI aspect versus the hacking aspect I think Larry and Walter had more of an AI aspect to it and I didn't I had more of a hacker aspect to it I was more interested in that than I was in the AI part They were more interested in the AI part and I've been very skeptical and I went to my first Hitchcock conference I say before California became a state so you know and I've been very disappointed with AI over the years And I do see agent-based systems having some validity and certainly neural controllers and control systems and such But overall AI has been overhyped. I mean way way way overhyped And then I see things like transhumanism now and the Singularity Institute and everything the Kurzweil writes And you know and I pretty much say okay. Well, maybe it's inspirational even if it's totally bogus You know it might be inspirational just like popular science and future shock were inspirational to me They don't have to necessarily be accurate. They can be inspirational So so I didn't really you know so the AI part kind of was more their angle I was more interested in the hacking side No, I there's a reason I asked about the classes because it's one of my favorite series of books and favorite movies And there seemed to be only few seminal points that everybody drew inspiration from and And I thought that was kind of slow for its time now now and it's time It would be incredibly slow, but it dealt with a lot of the same issues. It was the first I think it was the first movie where computer becomes intelligent and decides it knows what's best. It's going to take over Control the nuclear systems to basically blackmail the world into peace. This is sort of the opposite But the same idea with an intelligent computer that knows what's best So I can't think of where that thread has taken us But it was definitely at its time that seemed to be a very hot concept. Yeah, the Foreman project was certainly I mean I had seen it, but again, it wasn't as influential on me I think it was very influential on Larry in particular not so much Walter I would say Larry though was very influential, but from there. I don't think we've seen very many a super intelligent computer movies I think that idea much like the space base has kind of faded Anyway, so that was kind of where we came from the movie was created Did you ever think it would be on the screen? Did you think it would ever see the day of light? You know the first year today. Yeah after we wrote it It was just like nobody's buying into this thing and it took a long time by Hollywood standards to get this thing made So that's why I mentioned when you asked me how I've been involved with anything else They've done and that's when they started writing sneakers So about a year after war games began The writing of war games right about early 1980. They they really were just trying to pitch war games So they started writing sneakers and then they started writing sneakers over at 20th century Fox They were the studios there writing that so I actually don't remember who made sneakers whether 20th century Fox made it or not But that's where they wrote the screenplay for that and so I was just a little bit involved with that That was more of a they wanted that to really be more of a physical security Movie than it really turned out to be but it but it was really more about physical security Originally in the concept for sneakers. So then so then the movie comes out. What do you do throw a party? well, you know my life kind of Went in a different direction. I wound up getting involved with robotics for the biotech industry So I kind of put a lot of this stuff behind me and although always had interest I think old hackers never die they either become marketing or sales guys or technical project leads or managers, you know But but there's no way I really do think as I've noticed it would be tough to compete the 20 somethings You know, they can just do things tactically that somebody at 50 is not really be able to do in general I think but but then there's different skills. You have it at a different age So so I kind of put that behind me in the biotech side was robotics is pretty interesting Then I sold my soul to the devil and wound up in Samsung as Director of strategic planning for AST for those of you who are old enough to remember AST Yeah, I was the head of that was director strategic planning for AST, which basically meant downsizing So the Koreans told me basically to kill the company with the CEO and that's what happened And then I wound up in Microsoft and then I went from Microsoft wait, isn't that the place you sold your soul to well, you know You know Yeah, that's a good question because from Microsoft I went to Oracle I tell people going from Microsoft to Oracle was like going from Christianity to Islam But I was a nuclear arms jihadist at Oracle and because Oracle I was in a great position at Oracle and the money was unbelievably good Yeah, and actually I was at Microsoft and Oracle both companies when they reach their all-time stock highs So the environments were very good Oracle has reputation for being very Darwinian But we had a 5,000 headcount increase while I was at Oracle. So then after Oracle I was in Microsoft of his channels and Oracle I was director of e-business at Oracle the first director of e-business at Oracle And then I was VP of e-business strategies of the Meta group I remember some guy here who was earlier on a panel was with Gartner But I don't know what level he was at I was a VP of e-business at Meta And then of course e-business was a four-letter word and I was at ground zero during the nuclear winter of Silicon Valley So that pretty much really pretty much destroyed my life in 2002 I mean, it's like Murphy's law was too optimistic Things went wrong that I couldn't even have imagined went wrong with my life in 2002 So it's so it was kind of a tough recovery period. So then China then China So then so everybody wants to know what brought you to China? That's the question I usually get asked and here's a great answer because it's true. It's absolutely true online dating Somebody was doing something about adult friend finder, but adult friend finder has several other sites one of them is Asia friend finder and I use that and I was you know the Asians The Chinese well Asian friend finders like 99% Chinese because there's a Filipino friend finder and a Korean friend finders So they have their own friend finders. So it's really 99% Chinese and my my ex is Chinese So I have just I guess kind of an attraction to Chinese women. So This turned out pretty good. I picked the top five women. I wanted to meet I had all these frequent flyer miles accumulated from all my travels at Oracle and Microsoft so I Basically called up United Airlines at one time I was living in Silicon Valley then and I called up United Airlines said and the next Saturday I want to go I went to the San Francisco Council it for the Chinese Embassy the Chinese Council it got my visa Off I went and pretty much I've been there since I Mean I literally within like a week went to China I had to come back because it was a 30-day visa. So I came back did laundry went back I mean, that's what you have to do. Yeah, it takes a little time for Chinese visas You have to go like go so many times before they they extend your visa And then I got sponsored by I then I had to figure out. What am I going to do in China? You know, what am I going to do in China? So then because of my background at Oracle and such I wound up being VP of BizDev for the two largest Chinese Outsourcing companies that are focused on the US one of them went public. They want to be the emphasis of China They didn't quite happen. They have a hundred million market cap hardly what emphasis is that but nevertheless I did that out of 20 out of 2,000 people there were 20 VP's and I was the only person not born in China So it wasn't even they didn't even have any ethnic Chinese or Taiwanese or Hong Kong ease Everybody was born in China except for me. So that was quite an experience How long did it take to learn the language? You know, I learned about two words a year So I know I know what I call survival Chinese I can tell cab drivers how to drive and I can order in restaurants and I always have somebody on 24 seven on cell phones to To help communicate and I've been all over the country 25 software parks in China the 25 largest software parks And I actually if you do a search on my name David Scott Lewis, you'll see all sorts of stuff all mostly on IT Outsourcing in China. I don't really want to be known for that, but it seems that's kind of where I kind of got pigeon-holed So so so then one day what you get a call from wired and they say hey, it's the 25th year retrospective What do you have to say for yourself or is it more like? It came from a different direction Well, they actually contacted Larry Walt Larry Walter John Badham the director Peter Schwartz Peter Schwartz was very influential to Larry and Walter. Does everybody know who Peter Schwartz is? Peter Schwartz is with a global business network. He was at SRI back then GBM now is owned by monitor, which is Michael Porter's operation from the Harvard Business School There they got he got kind of tied in you can even matter of fact This is actually a good point on how Larry and Walter were thinking about the movie When they went to SRI Now for those of you over 50, this is a quiz Who over who would be the one person you would think of in that time frame from SRI and Computer security. I mean to everybody that was in infosec back then He was he was on your mind. There were two people in the whole world that you'd know and he's one of the two Okay, Don Parker Don Parker and then the other one was Willis where at the Rand Corporation Well, you know Willis was close by because Larry lived in Santa Monica and so did Walter lived in Westwood back then Yeah, he lived in Westwood back then so they were pretty close so they did a lot with Willis where at the Rand Corporation and I think Willis was probably their key kind of Kind of setting a framework for for what could be done Whereas I'm the guy that kind of said, you know, this is how the kids should react and what he should do And how he would hack so and then one Duncan Wilmore the guy that that you see in the movie He's he's the guy that doesn't lock out. He locks out the missiles. He was their key consultant from the military He was the Air Force liaison at the federal building on Wilshire Boulevard in LA So he got actually a part in the movie and and he was he was pretty instrumental from that part of the movie So then but why are the how did the article? Oh, so why are so the guy who wrote at Scott Brown contacted Contacted them in May and then and Larry I haven't seen Larry since October 2004 when I was back from a trip from China and We don't he changed his email address and so I couldn't find him and just tried different things It didn't bounced and so on so I still know his phone number by memory I mean I even gave you that his phone number But but they they somehow he found me the guy was I'm pretty easy to find on the internet if you use my full name So he just tracked me down and he tracked me down in early June and Wanted me in the article Yeah, there's only a few people in the article as I said the directors myself Larry and Walter Peter Schwartz because he was kind of giving that philosophical perspective to things Kevin Mitnick is quoted. I Don't know why Captain crunches quoted I don't know why and then the other person that's quoted is the head of the Air Force cyber Security space command or something the new one. Yeah, and he was also quoted in the wired article as well Matter of fact, what's funny is just a little aside is that norad is actually back then was very tiny I mean it was very it was like a little cave and after seeing war games. They said that's what we want So so they made it now it looks like war games or so I'm told I haven't been there since Yeah, maybe maybe I don't know if you can pay the hazmat bill Okay, so that's kind of the background. That's how we got here I'd like to open it up for any questions and priest is the first one with his hand up. Oh The question is did you ever read the adolescence of P1? Oh? Oh Okay, okay. This is like I must have paid you to ask this is I forgot this Remember it was thinking who to pay to ask I was yeah, I was in the notes. I sent to you The adolescence of P1 had to be the most influential piece of fiction that I ever read And if you haven't read it by it, I don't know how you can get it I still have a copy priest has it pirated on priest wears We can do it in China Priest is talking him Scary, okay as far as the movie I never I didn't even know there was a movie No, I never even saw the movie so I have only I've only read the book I thought the premises were okay for back then because back then we remember we're living in a an age of hell So we're having adolescence of P1 kind of peening against the the howl 9,000 so in that sense it seemed more realistic then Yeah, I thought it was Yeah, I thought it was Well think about just software agents Okay, so in essence The adolescence of P1 and the software agents get smarter and smarter so Yeah, and the well and learning you don't think that say the Demon Seed movie wasn't a better biological imperative of the computer Yeah, so if you haven't really yeah, so I would oh that was just an absolutely wonderful book Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up. I totally forgot about that adolescence P1. Absolutely wonderful Yeah, please so the Yeah, so the question was can you explain a bit of his hacking skills and what inspired the movie? Yes, most of the stuff was what one thing is is that back then I remember there was a session today where he talked About the the top words and such and it was really easy back then so I mean people really were done And the way they use the passwords like pencil and they showed pencil here It was that easy to get into things so if you were doing war dialing of course We didn't call it war dialing then war dialing came from the movie war games. Okay, the etymology of the word, but Maybe Def Con came from war games. So So it was very easy So the beginning of the passwords as long as you could get in and make the modem connection was not very difficult at all Then some of my stuff was related to DoD, but let's say in cooperation with rather than against So as in cooperation with now also there's certain things I can't talk about because of where I live Okay, so that's just it's not benefit plus also Honestly, that stuff is a long time ago So from a perspective of using the internet today for what we're doing and penetrations and such It's a whole different but I mean would you say so by the way one thing I got to say because I got to say this as a captain crunches here He'll get pissed off and some people that are there really heavy in freakers will will get pissed off of this But I got to say I always felt that was a just a just a tool It was more of a trick. Well more even of a trick, you know doing freaking was a trick doing war dialing was a trick It wasn't to me. It was just the point of the end game. That was it the end game was the hacky It was just a matter of getting you to the point and I was really surprised that captain crunch I mean, he's a good self-promoter. I mean he's good at that John's good at that and I think and just took in 2600 magazine and all that it's just I don't know That did surprise me that that became such a big deal and now you look today. Does that does anybody care? I mean certainly the magazine exists. I don't know you've got VoIP connections for free So what so I mean what it would you know a whole different world? No, there was a lot more hacking in the screen play. Oh, let me repeat the question So I guess it's a paraphrase Was there's the hacking was shown? The movie kind of goes off in a different direction didn't seem to be totally consistent in what what's being shown? I would say that the screenplay is consistent the screenplay is very consistent matter of fact There's no stupid whopper in the in this in the screenplay. It's Cyah It's the strategic integrated operating plan Which is still the war plan for the United States in the event of a global Thermonuclear conflict, okay, and that's what we called it Okay, and we just had that kind of computer. Yeah, there was it was put into a computer Which is based on a model on a cray. We remember we're looking in the time frame of 19 early 80s So is or or a CDC or whatever, you know You're big one of those Minneapolis companies that was in the super computing business that which of course don't exist for the most part so Anyways, the screenplay was really much more accurate and what it was showing and how to get there and Sneakers I thought in some ways did a better job of showing some of that Although sneakers had I think a lot of other issues with it People actually got shot in that movie It's sneakers that was just kind of off on a whole another tangent Yeah, you know Larry and Walter will tell you this and because they told me this they loved doing war games War games was a one thing I would say I've noticed here because and they talked about this All of us I think share a deep passion for what we're doing and for all of this and And they had a passion for war games to sneakers was a job Larry and Walter if you asked him that they'll just say to you sneakers was a job Some of the actors that were in there. We won't mention names were kind of a pain in the ass to work with For sneakers and that wasn't the case with war games war games There were issues because they got kicked off the movie with a director and then they replaced the director with bad I'm there so there's an it there was a time frame there where they were actually off war games But that didn't last long but war games was a passion for them for all of us and sneakers was really just a job The question over here with the lady. Oh, absolutely. No, it's funny because I can't find one in Vegas Seems like nobody has a nobody reads and we've got a couple other seed We have some other DVDs as well that we're gonna have him sign at the end Yeah Re-envisioning war games today boy One of the things I want to say when we're all done with the questions I want to float a movie idea to you that I've discussed with Larry We haven't discussed this with Walter yet But Walter is now kind of independent and would have time to act and have certainly has the clout with his Credentials to put something together So I'll kind of address your question when I give you the movie pitch because I think that answers your question Gentlemen over here. Yeah, the question is why do the UIs suck in almost every movie and they've re-envisioned them to be Yeah, is it they have to simplify to such a basic point so the viewer can only read one line. That's all they get Yeah, that probably That's probably one of my pet peeves, too. You see 3d visualization Immersive VR that's such and we know what it's like We're on command lines and they're doing immersive VR. What a what a disconnect from reality of hacking, right? I mean dial up in there at lawnmower man. Yeah, just stupid. Yeah, lawnmower lawnmower man. Yeah, exactly So yeah, just goofy stuff. Yeah, I think it's just bogus But if I look at what would happen with war games like you notice that they had the speech synthesis Now who has to be synthesis here? Okay to do when they were doing your hack nobody does that but of course it's a cute movie ploy And you know and that I don't think was so bad right because it's just That's like you had a Heath Kitt knew he's showing off his latest build Yeah, you know, I didn't think that was so bad as when you get into the immersive VR and your moving things Oh, that's just so stupid. Yeah, so I don't like that stuff either now after the movie hackers got hacked I did end up talking to the the producer No, the writer and he was actually happy that it got hacked and he was saying that the reason they had all that crazy flyby visuals Is that they spent so much time? Trying to watch real hackers and they couldn't find a way to portray like 22 hours of people with no sleep in Mountain Dew And they're like well We were gonna fast-forward through all this stuff and show clock spinning and like no that's not gonna work And they tried a million different ideas and they figured it's a new movie We'll just go in a completely direction different direction We'll just do this weird psycho visual flyby and that was their way of trying to show time space difficulty and Commitment didn't really work people derived that but they at least tried to show a different direction of how do you portray? intellectual activity without putting people to sleep and Again, that's a movie ploy so I understand why it's done I don't particularly like it and it certainly gives an inaccurate view of how we actually do things But I do understand that from that perspective There's another gentleman back here. I believe had a question No Anybody over here? Okay, oh the China I got tell you the China angle though before I tell the pitch okay China angle first and pitch Yeah, then the pitch so the China angle always comes up. What's going on and I'm gonna kind of summarize this Now the caveat is I have been affiliated with Tsinghua University It's still I am actually if you go on companies start tech global comm They're actually the outsourcing operation for Tsinghua. Tsinghua is the MIT of China Most of the major leadership in China at this time went to Tsinghua including President Hu Jintao That's not true in 2012 which is where the movie comes in they're gonna have a completely different leadership in 2012 So China is gonna be a very interesting company to watch a country to watch in 20 especially in 2012 not this Olympics Forget the Olympics 2012 is gonna be the time so with China in the hacking situation There's a there's the dark visitors the dark visitor here the guy who writes the dark visitor blog There is a blog that covers it a little bit I was with some DOE guys because in my day job these days is in the solar industry and We have a Spanish company We're raising about five to ten million euros in Hong Kong and I spent about fourth of my time in Hong Kong about seven The ten days a month in Hong Kong and I live in a city called Qingdao Which is in between Beijing and Shanghai and we actually will have the the salient events and the Windsurfing for the Olympics actually the Olympics this year is in several cities in China not just in Beijing They did it kind of differently. So You know things Will be done by China But it's not clear when I talk to my DOE contacts that whether they're being set up Whether we're seeing how much they can actually get Obviously, do we do it to them the Chinese press would never report that okay, so It's probably like a cat and mouse game that's played both ways So to what extent it's done who knows the but the key area is on a asymmetric warfare The Chinese realize that if they do come to battle with us and hopefully that will never happen But if that happens over the Al Qaeda asymmetric warfare is critical because it's hard to beat the US One-on-one militarily. We're basically impossible to beat So you have to use a symmetric warfare information warfare is a key component of that So if you can and of course Al Qaeda we all know Al Qaeda is very good at hacking Okay, and very good at using exploits and such so and recruiting so so all of this is occurring and China's I think following along really in no no different way than most other Countries including the United States are following relative to who they may view as potential adversaries So I'm not I write for the letter of China column for the sandhill group and for always on network And I can be pretty pretty critical of China But I can also be I think I'm pretty objective too and the current leadership is pretty good You have to understand they're going through a lot of there's a lot of chaos in the country It's I tell people when I go when I fly from the United States to China It's like going through a wormhole, and I don't go to a different country I go to a different planet because the way we reason just it's different there I tell people that's a great way. You're married. Okay. I'm married Anybody that's married don't Don't don't try to understand your wife just learn to accept your wife And that's what it really is like in China just learn to accept what happens You know you kind of predict the guy's gonna drive the cab drivers gonna use the sidewalk to save time So you better move out of the way just all sorts of goofy things Oh, I gotta tell you to the two quick China stories that are just this great because they're good to laugh at In the winter this one those best winter story this last winter. How do you know your car has trouble starting right? How do you get your engine block warmed up easy get a pile of bushes get brushed together light it on fire and stick it underneath your engine block Okay, and I wanted when it happened when I was with an American visitor this year I didn't even pay attention to it. So it shows that maybe I've been in China too long Because it didn't even faze me and then the other one this year the funny one this year that we're seeing more of is that There's more and more Western toilets coming in and they actually have instructions on what to do and the instructions are don't Stand on the rim and the other one is don't face the plunger Because if you think about it and kind of make sense face the plunger, you know if you're going one way just do that So, you know, it's different. It's really but one thing I can say is there's dynamism in China It feels like 1999 in Silicon Valley There's a dynamism and there's a lot of nationalism. That's the downside, but you'll also see I'm not too worried about it The Chinese are you know, you'll see the the mother who is dressed in her Mao outfit With her daughter who's dropped dead gorgeous wearing short shorts on the latest fashions and makeup And it's absolutely hilarious and this has only happened now in the last couple years in China Where you're seeing you see the mouth of the mom still dressed like in the Cultural Revolution and the daughter is just So So how is the great firewall of China treating you? You know the great firewall of China first of all, I tell everybody you get it at VPN, right? So you have to get a VPN to get around otherwise you're just stuck you're really hoes especially with blogs So you really don't have any choice. I use you know, I think most of us use white opium So because that's probably the best cost-benefit some people use tour, but tour from China Yeah, it's as slow as mud so using so using using tour from China is pretty bad now anchor free Some people use an anchor free now. They're trying to use that so that gets them around they get their stupid little advertisements But that's okay. They don't use it often It's more in Starbucks the Starbucks are they're all free Wi-Fi So they do that there's Starbucks by the way and Pizza Hut in China are much much better than here Just no comparison. No comparison. They're nice. They're really nice I'm sorry. I can't hear a word. You're saying could you could you maybe come up? Said the media coverage during the earthquake was very open Yes, it was open primarily because of what just happened prior to the problems in one of their neighbors So so that was one of the reasons also when Jiao Bao really took charge of this operation And he's he's really good when Jiao Bao is is quite good I Hoochin Tao is okay is pretty good, but when Jiao Bao they're they're lucky They have the two top guys are technocrats and China needs technocrats the guys coming in at 2012 or attorneys. Oh God the downfall of China so who knows but they speak English and they spent time in the States So we'll have to see what happens. I'm sorry say what are there any big disadvantages to living in China? You know I tell people that if if there is a purgatory, I hope I'm getting credit for time lived in China So that would say there's lots of disadvantages to living in China I mean food for one thing. I mean just the food just you can't You know I crave an in and out burger when I come back, you know Just certain things like that and and the culturally it's just the nightclubs are good I mean the nightclubs are pretty good. There's techno ambient trance and the nightclubs and so on and it's that that's kind of good They actually have floors that move because they joke that that's the only way you can get Chinese people to dance So you actually have floors that yeah It's pretty funny So it's and they do dance because you but you know you can't you're all kind of squeezed together So yeah, there's lots of disadvantages. That's a whole story I need your opinion on this one I was reading a pre-olympic story and they're talking about these chefs that go over to China and they check out the local markets Because they want to cook fresh for their teams from their country and they analyze a chicken wing that could feed a family of 10 So I don't know a chicken wing that can be that big and if you eat it you'll test positive for steroids Does that? Kind of do you've you seen the super chicken? Yeah, well Yeah, okay the super chicken, you know food stuff and pharmaceuticals are a key problem I might I don't want to turn this into a china talk because that would be easy to do and it probably might be more Interesting too, but it food stuffs and pharmaceuticals are a huge problem for Chinese and because we know and that's a huge concern for the foreigners Living there because we know we get junk we don't matter of fact the Sichuan earthquake The reason there were a lot of deaths and all likelihood was because the materials used were substandard They weren't what was contracted now one could argue if you look at transparency international India and China are among the two most corrupt countries in the world But the one difference is if you if your brother-in-law in China You give him money to build a road you'll have a road if your brother-in-law in India You give him money you probably won't have a road so you know the corruption is more efficient in China But still they're substandard things, you know people in cash flow businesses run in China on cash flow They run on razor thin margins, so any little thing they can cut they will and even when we do business in China We're a Spanish company, so I can say this I'm not I'm not obligated to the foreign corrupt practices act in the United States We have to pay our salespeople to give them bribe money to the purchasing people who we know are they going to give a Kickback to our sales guy That's just that's doing business in China, you know, and it's why should our way be right? You know we're in a different country. We're in a different culture My wife thinks it's going to take two to three generations before it's going to change and it isn't just about IP You know Huawei is generally regarded Generally regarded. Okay, I'll legally make that claim generally regarded as it basically having ripped off Cisco technology to create their company Now Huawei sues their former Chinese, you know, they're Chinese employees who have left that rip off their technology And so it isn't just against Western firms. It's against each other. If you've got an idea an IP It's mine too We're a collective nation So so so that's just a cultural thing that's going to take time to change. There was a question I think over here. Okay, and then we'll go to your movie picture. Yeah, okay, okay, sir No, I have not and I really don't have a lot of interest seeing it I Had zero involvement I saw the trailer for it and just like the drama to strain I think this year in the states had a oh Man, I would I when I saw what it was like I said, I don't even want to see this I just want to have sort of in name only movies. Oh god, so no no I haven't seen it and and if you give me a free DVD I may consider Well, you know, it is funny. Yeah, the DVDs we pay a seven quiet. So that's about a dollar for a DVD We want to know something though. And this is in the defense of China. We would know where to buy a legal DVD So like people say, you know, what are you gonna do? And it's like you can't buy legal DVDs You have to pay a buck to get your illegal DVD. Damn it. You damn it. Yeah, really. What are you gonna do? It's we'll get bored. We only have one English channel So that's channel nine and that's CCTV and it's mostly kind of like CNN The Chinese version of CNN soon, you know that gets a little white devil is having heavy rain in northern, California And the channel fives this the sports channel, which is basically soccer and basketball, which I don't particularly care for either so Okay, movie idea movie idea. Okay, so let's toss this out and I wanted to put this on my laptops Just so I don't forget anything. So let me do this kind of this Read it to you just if you like it. Hey, we might actually have this as a movie and if you don't like it Well, then I guess we'll let it die Basic plot It's trying to bring in some different types of elements into the plot. So it's a covert Interpol operation in China To thwart Russian organized crime elements working with al-Qaeda in China al-Qaeda does exist in China Okay, matter of fact the main reason that the Tibetans will not get more Independence is because of al-Qaeda and you never hear that from the Western media, do you? Because if they give it to the Tibetans, they've got to give it to the Ouija's if they give it to the Ouija's who are all Muslim Not gonna happen. Okay. I actually support Beijing's position on Tibet. I think they're a little heavy-handed But overall I understand why they cannot give Tibet the kind because the Buddhists the Tibetan Buddhists want democracy That's not viable in China now Okay, you have to live there and see they would vote for a Hitler too in China If you had the villagers and the citizens the way they operate and such you could convince the poor people With the big income disparities that there are in China to vote for a Hitler. That's not on our best interest And it's not in their best interest Okay, you know you you have to really understand and see what on ground level what's happening in China But anyway, let's go back to this. So Russian organized crime hacker types, right? And now they want to figure out Hey, I need to do something with the money. Hey, this Xinjiang province Xinjiang autonomous region, which is Ouija's Muslims about run There's al-Qaeda elements there You may have heard about this last week actually the PLA went in and wiped out one group and they did that about six months ago The PLA doesn't screw around when they go in there. They just blow them away. Okay, there's no like civil rights We're gonna read you or put you in Gitmo. We're just gonna kill you all okay so the PLA is pretty pretty strong with them and Same with other Muslim extremists in the region So this takes place in 2012 when there's new leadership in China The new leadership has found evidence of corruption Which is a huge problem and they can't really trust who they can really go to to really will solve this problem Because there's this independence movement in the Xinjiang autonomous region the Ouija's just like in Tibet now So they request a covert operation by Interpol So the bad guys are the Russian organized crime in al-Qaeda in China the good guys Guess what? It's David Leitman at 50 years old, but but okay Okay, but but we'll take this further and there's gonna be three different other types to there would be a white Silicon Valley hacker a Chinese hacker from Beijing and a beautiful Indian hacker from Bangalore female Hacker from Bangalore Yeah, maybe maybe I have we haven't thought that through yet So the Silicon Valley Chinese and Indian hackers in their middle 820s and Leitman's been living in China for five years out of Interpol for the past ten He's being recruited for the special assignment kind of just to lead this team of younger hackers Most of the action takes place in Shanghai I thought mi3 did a horrible job in showing Shanghai mission impossible three just did a awful job in showing Shanghai So I was very disappointed with that show more scenes in Shanghai with additional locations Kind of in that James Bond kind of thing with Moscow, but I'm G which is where the Ouija's would be primarily Mountain View Silicon Valley Beijing Bangalore Dubai and Hong Kong primarily Dubai and Hong Kong for money laundering stuff So the bad guys are using the Internet for various nefarious acts and an attacks plan on Shanghai During a sco meeting that's the Shanghai cooperation organization, which is Russia China a few other countries But then but most of the action really takes place on the Internet And then there's a bombing plan for the sco meeting to try to get independence for the Xingjian autonomous region APEC holds a meeting we'll try to work that and explain it in easy ways And what's in it for the Russians as I said they want the mineral assets and Xingjian autonomous region if it becomes independent They want it for themselves. So it's really in simple terms then it would be Chloe is the good guy Not Jack Bauer Helps Chloe rather than Chloe helping Jack Bauer So the heroes the Chloe character and there has to be a Jack Bauer character at the end because there is a bombing Plan for Shanghai, but really it's the hackers really the the heroes in this We've also talked about it from a sense of how much hacking that there would be more hacking We would guarantee more hacking than in any hacking movie to date and it would be realistic matter of fact We would be fat free we even get Jeff it's like it has to in priests get like a certain criteria No, let's go through a committee to get approved as to the hacking level. We want it to be very accurate As far as the hacking elements now, but now you're gonna run into the same problems every movie's had is how do you? visualize that Hacking more than just a you know an n-map screen map and ooh, I'm in Well, probably more like 24 except that obviously it won't be that you take 250 encryption and Figure it out in three seconds. So so so probably not that kind of element that you see in 24 But more kind of the 24ish element. I think that the way they show Chloe and her team on 24 does an okay job They do it things too quickly as we would all agree. It's you know too quick Hey, they only got 24 hours But but that kind of a kind of a situation because again, it's an interpol secret operation So does this so so we're trying to bring an interpol more information interpol now al-Qaeda the whole bit So in war games the stakes are pretty high. It was the whole world It was a whole planet and this movie. What's the stakes? What happens if they lose a bomb goes off in front of a building? the bomb actually would kill several heads of state because these Shanghai Cooperation Organization and APEC would have world leaders from the US England, you know, the basically the g8 many other countries Would be there would be but so so you're going to take out some leaders from other countries main main leaders And then will that have trigger some other secondary? Russia will get what they want then or Russia loses out in this and other parts of the plot TBD So It could be you know the dirty bomb would be with kind of the plot from what was the the Tom Clancy movie in the book Some of all fears some of all fears. Yeah, I like the book better than the movie But you know that that's probably a good question You know if you look at a lot of movies if a lot of movies do have the premise that Some form a major leader is going to die and be assassinated in this case you'd have a you'd have Russia China the United States You'd have major country India you'd have all these major countries being killed at once and the chaos that could possibly cause. Oh I'm sorry. It was like why do we care of a foreign leader gets killed or a foreign dignity? Who needs him? Yeah, I don't know That's good because you know we need what will need a lot of it a rate trust me in war games There were so many iterations that we had to go through and things to think through and people that we talked with and said No, you can't do this or that or whatever as far as plots or to to extravagant from a movie production point of view, so I'm sorry, so you were you were asking They don't know that where the bomb is and that's what I got to find out So that has the 24 kind of element to it where they're trying to find where the device is You create the time pressure And the Dave alignment doesn't really necessarily have to be that way But Dave alignments become more of the you know with inner pole and doing more management rather than actual That's why the 20 somethings are the real hackers that he's managing that team Yeah, kind of and really to go and really to guide the team It's really to guide the team as to where thing they should be thinking about things just like the blog I'm doing is you know, I can't write a blog. I don't want nobody needs a new We don't need a new news blog right in this field We don't need another one and I'm not going to write tactical exploits But I'm looking at my blog is really focusing on what to like as a as an analyst in the meta group Where do we see things happening over the next three to five years? Where are the areas that products ISVs? Independent software vendors can develop product. Where are some market needs there? So it's looking more future a little more in the future more from a product planning point of view No, do you think it's realistic though that inner pole China even would call inner pole? Yes, we think that's very realistic Yeah, yeah, yeah, because China does have some problems with their own internal security And there's a lack of trust within certain elements in China and the PLA So to what extent but that's why we're doing this in 2012 because it's a new leadership And the new leadership doesn't have the ten years of establishment and China leadership for ten years It's five years pretty much automatically renewed. So and they leave in 2012 last week, correct Yeah, that's exactly in essence what it builds on and that's why we do it in 2012 in the future Because right now there technically isn't an al-Qaeda in China. There's this there's this group that's Like this with al-Qaeda, but they don't use the al-Qaeda name We're assuming that in a few years there they would be actually like an official part of al-Qaeda Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. We'll keep that in mind. Yeah, that's good idea There's always a twist though No, sco is the Shanghai Okay Yeah, that's I never really made that connection there. Well, you know Santa Cruz No, we won't put Santa Cruz or the city or anything in the movie. No, that's a funny point though There was another question. I'm sorry say it's more of the realistic vision of Shanghai You know if you go to China Shanghai is not like the rest of China. Neither is Beijing Beijing is a little bit nationalistic Shanghai or get this for a fact 38% of the high school students in Shanghai Want to go to the you want to move to the United States? Now that's not even including all Western countries. That's specifically the United States 38% want to move to the United States It's that high Shanghai is very different than the rest of China Yeah, and and it's and we could show like we have the beautiful Indian woman as one of the hackers But we could show a lot of beautiful women in Shanghai, too Any other comments and you know, and you know, feel free to contact me or whatever I love to get your ideas as we can try to develop this. It'd be fun to do this The GA could be it could be a G8 sco meeting It has to be a sco meeting because it's cascos China and Russia the two key components of sco so rather than a peck It could be G it could be a g8 meeting with sco. Yeah, that's perfectly viable Yeah, yeah, well sco is the Shanghai cooperation organization. I mean we can't rename the acronym, but but we'll figure out some Any other questions? By the way, I love three days of the condor the next movie that's up That was actually influential to me as well. That that was one of my favorite movies at that time The reason why I'm sitting here and Jeff is not is because he's running up to his room to pick up three days of the condor And come back down. We will be starting that shortly. I think the next thing is you're gonna autograph these I'm not sure where they're gonna go from there. I think Jeff was also checking to see I don't know if you guys knew this But Jeff is actually expecting So there may be a little Jeff on the way soon So we'll be doing the three days of condor shortly So I guess I'm like says are any other questions out there or Yes, sir louder sir, please Yeah, Matthew Broderick to do it. No Matthew Broderick hasn't aged at all. He couldn't he couldn't pass for 50 I mean, I don't think I really look 50 but but Broderick still looks like he's 30 or something He's about 50 now, maybe 48. All right. Thank you Zero day defense net random applause for it for gentlemen, please