 Duffster Good Is my screen sharing working you should Perfect perfect Yeah Those kids are running themselves now they just They just do stuff without me. It's like fantastic and And one of them just got an internship with chain garden is like so happy right now Yeah, yeah, so I'm testing that No, just a random random guys like man, I need a job and Kirkland and chain guards like I need interns and I was like Yeah, I got a bunch of them are applying for Zero to merge that's like Taylor's onboarding program and then You know if I see success there, I know it's not a theory any longer and then pretty good plain soccer. How's yours? Are you at a conference? Okay, oh that's amazing I hear that So you're attending here, so I'm gonna mark you bold Amy's Amy's having some plumbing issues in her house. So Yeah, let's see if this works. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right, that works. Hello, Kevin There's a very weird static noise Is that me? Hold on. Can you can you mute for a second Duffy and we'll figure it out. Oh Yeah I'm trying to find like a headset to travel with that has like a dedicated mic that isn't this huge bulky thing that I Can just keep in my bag But that that doesn't mod Mike. I'm just gonna test the sharing real quick. That's still looking good for everyone Yep. All right early. We got a while Phil Yeah I'm taking attendance. Oh, okay. Good. Okay I was gonna say it's it's nice to see all the like emails with updates going around. I love that and Then the discussion updates on the TOC This morning. I mean, you don't have to I can pretend I'm not here. Have a new TOC members too on the call. This is exciting Hey, Kevin. We got more time. All right, everyone. We're gonna give it some more time we like to see about 12 to 15 participants before we get started So we'll wait a few more minutes Looks like we're starting to get more folks I see Ricardo. I see Duffy. I see Lynn. I see Kevin Gonna wait one more minute before we get started. I want to make sure we can get as many to see members in as we can Hey, good morning, everybody. I just send a chat message. There is a bot read.ai is Monitoring us. Should we stop it? Yeah, that needs to be disabled George. Is that something you can do? I Don't know but I'll try to figure it out. Okay Looks like it's a friendly zoom helper potentially All right, um, so let's go ahead and get started. Hello everyone today is February 6th And this is the first TOC meeting of the month. We have our tag leads and leadership team here Next slide, please and if you've made it You are going to comply with the Linux foundations anti-trust policy notice. I'm not going to read it verbatim But if you do have any questions, it's also available on the Linux foundation or website forward slash anti-trust policy next slide You're here. So you understand the meeting logistics if you have any questions meeting minutes were sent out prior to the meeting Zoom information is there next slide members present today next We won't be making any decisions. So we won't necessarily need quorum so current TOC work TOC members that are currently sponsoring projects Do you have any updates on them? Ricardo? I have four I'm a bit late on the Open cost, but I'm picking it up again this week. I hope to make progress Okay, and I've been reached out by the open yard as well. So I'll try to also pick that one up Okay, it's for the delays there. It's all right. So you've got open year and open cost Cube OVM will need to get a new sponsor I know artifact hub is still in due diligence. I don't see Dave on the call I'm so Falco is still going through Licensing exceptions pixies Due diligence has been kicked off any other TOC members of the status update Katie. I see that you're looking to get to a cert manager Yes, I had the main thing was reaching out to me a few a few times now that my TOC role has been extended. I'm able to pick that up. So that's some on my agenda. I'm going to assign the due diligence to myself This week because I'm at the airport now. So I should do it once I have my laptop Alright Okay Um, I think that is all the moving levels updates. We do have several PRs that are open on the repo. Um That just need to reviewers Um, so TOC members if you get a chance if you could take a look at those open PRs I know several of them. Um, we have folks assigned but Hopefully we can get some of those merged soon. All right George if you could open the discussion for the 1205 so One of the intents, um So one of the things that we talked about last year at the TOC and tag meeting during kubecon is kind of like What is the intent of the tags? We have we've talked to you all we've been collecting a lot of feedback on like your health and what your workload is and one of the questions that we had was Are the is the work that the tags are being asked to do the work that's within the charter Do we need to make changes to What are the goals and objectives of the tag how they engage with projects how they engage with adopters But we wanted to understand kind of a little bit of the current state Several tags have a lot of working groups within them. Um, they have a lot of work that needs to happen But they may not necessarily have all the contributors for it And some other tags are a little bit more narrowly scoped They're focusing more specifically on project engagements providing recommendations within the domain Some of our tags are also um developing papers to help advance some of these technical domain concepts with an industry Um, so what we put together is the discussion on the TOC repo to try to understand a little bit more around this now Rion has gone through all of the tag charters and kind of done an evaluation and a comparison between Um, the deltas between the charters where there's commonality between them But that doesn't necessarily cover the technical content of what it is the tags do So we've had a lot of discussion on here and I want to thank everybody for participating in that because it's been incredible We we've gotten a lot of feedback. So I wanted to kind of open the floor to folks um, and understand probably from each tag if I could have each Tag chair or technically to kind of talk through a little bit more of their perspective on this because the TOC is going to um Be meeting off-site to talk through tags and we want to collect as much of your feedback in your insights as we can So that we can make informed decisions moving forward that consider the impact to the tags and the impact to the projects So is there any tag lead or chair that would like to start? Uh, I'm happy to go if that's okay. Yeah, go ahead Alex um, so I I wrote this up in the issue only just an hour ago or so. Um, so I don't expect anybody to have had the time to read it yet but I tried to um put in I went through the different tags and kind of saw the commonality because at the end of the day we all started with one operating model in one charter which we then kind of adapted and added more details to um, so especially if we're going to rationalize the charters it kind of makes sense to just to define what's common between them and then kind of define what's specific to particular tags So I kind of said look What are the things that a tag should actually do? um, uh in in in all cases um, and in all cases a tag is put in place to help scale out the TOC by adding particular expertise or particular function rights that the that the TOC needs to to to deal with the influx of projects and the size of the community as it grows continues to grow um, there's obviously an educational element to this where Nearly all of the tags are producing white papers either directly or in working groups to to help with the adoption of clown native in the community and I think that's important Uh, and it also is I think one of the primary ways that sort of new people in the tank Help to contribute and get started um In line with the scaling issue Hopefully the tags are there to help with the project lifecycle and helping provide inputs on Uh, you know the reviews graduation processes and the animal reviews of project health and things like that um in many cases In fact, I think all of the tags in one way or another collaborate with with other groups and you know either with Kubernetes 6 or other working groups or other foundations where there are commonalities or or overlapping um Work in there and I think I think acting as a focal point to to connect uh boats People and projects is really really useful um I think the other tag responsibilities that that we're That need to be that that we kind of focus on are the ones which are specific to the tags So certain tags have very specific functions like tag security does security assessments, for example or you know tag contributor strategy Has very specific functions within within the community, which are not generic and don't apply to to all of the tags um, but I think also And and here we may have an opportunity to kind of rationalize Um a lot of those special functions are sometimes done by working groups And some of those working groups are extremely long-running and are there just to define a particular function So, you know, we may there may be an opportunity here to kind of say this is actually um This is actually a responsibility of the tag and we may want to um And where the tag and the co-chair is, you know, maintain a level of of governance over that function that way Um, I also think it's important to say what we're not, right? So we're in no way Project governance. We may help contribute guide help it's what et cetera, but we don't do governance for projects Um, we don't make decisions the toc makes decisions. We make recommendations the toc Um, and we don't have to king make like it's very very tempting for tanks to recommend one thing over another And we must never ever ever do that Um I did list a couple of gray areas, which I think are are fuzzy and not well defined across each of the tags So some of the tags are loosely involved in helping to influence or define standards Um, I'm not sure if this is if this is something we should do Uh, sometimes I guess it's a help like, you know, the work that was done With open telemetry and things like that. Sometimes it's a very very fine line, you know, and we can easily become king making Um, I think that merits some discussion Um, also I also think that, you know, we some of the tags act as a focus for some of the Incubated or graduate the projects where, you know, they're more proactive in in Maintaining sight of the project whereas other tags are more reactionary in this space And maybe this needs to be defined a little better um I listed I listed some of the roles. I think coaches and tech leads are very well understood, but the more generic roles um like, you know, the the There are there are a ton of tag specific roles, which are less well understood and maybe we should do more about Uh, making those common and better understood across the tags um, and I think We need to fortify the TOC liaison role And make it a bit more official and a bit more formal Um, such that, you know, if we want to in the future Provide tags, uh, you know, delegate more responsibility to tags in any way Then then the oversight role of the of the TOC liaison is is even more important. Um, and I think that's kind of Um That's that's a little bit in one of those gray areas today You know, the the TOC liaison is actually not particularly well defined in any of the charters. It's sort of something that happened afterwards um So I also listed a couple of things where we could consider a bunch of changes here Um, you know, so where we have, for example, very long running working groups Um, we may want to define those as a role of the tag rather than a role of the working group So that the chairs actually maintain some level of governance on that um We probably need to formalize the flexibility on the term and sort of tag members because Many tags have this challenge and it's not going to go away So, you know, kind of make some mockery of the charter if we're not following it um We we would you know, like I mentioned, we may want to Um think about how we delegate how the TOC delegates more responsibility Assuming there's the right oversight to the tags so if the if the If the tags are going to be there to help the TOC scale Um, you know, maybe we should be more bold and more fortrighton how we do that um and You know, in relation to that delegation, you know, do we do we empower the tags to have a more formal role In the project qualification and review. So for example, you know, if there's information around collecting Data points on Ike policy road map governance, etc Like that that seems to be like a huge bottleneck in the TOC today, uh when it comes to, you know, all of the various reviews and animal reviews and health reviews and whatever else and If those data points are Delegated, you know, those are the sorts of things we can we can maybe Help scale the TOC and get them to do other things So that was a bit of a brain dump. Sorry. There was a lot there. No, it was well articulated and broken out and I definitely appreciate kind of Defining those gray areas. I think is where a lot of um the TOC and some of the tags struggle is like Some of them we're doing it. Some of them aren't it's not really explicit Should we be doing it? Should we not be doing it? But I like the way that this is constructed in presenting that space. Kathy Yeah, I think I like, you know, thanks. Thank you very much Alex. I like, you know, what you, you know, put in here It's really a very comprehensive list. I'm very good. Um, so I think I would like to add one more on the, you know, the tags responsibility So, in addition to identify the um overlaps you work with other community like other tags to identify them to Make sure there's no no not much overlap Also, if you can work, you know, tag can work with, you know, related tags or community to identify the functionality gaps or performance gaps, you know, you need to support, you know, some new Some new trends or some new technology trend. That would be great Yeah, I did actually list that latter points. Um, in the primary responsibilities to kind of say, you know, we should be proactively looking for You know, new technologies and new projects in the in the ecosystem to present and and and help with their Initial qualification or just, you know, give them the information of what it takes to say, you know, join as a sandbox or whatever um, one thing I just realized I missed out was um That that I think we need to add to the primary responsibilities is um, it should be crystal clear That every incubating and graduated project should have a primary tag allocated Um, there may be a bunch of secondaries and that's fine, you know, because there are going to be a bunch of stakeholders But but we really need to define a one-to-one mapping of each project to attack. Um, if we are going to Maintain any sort of delegation around the project lifecycle and reviews and whatever else Yep tag interpreter strategy your hand is up Yeah, I was going to agree with alex there and it would be very useful to have that information recorded somewhere Um, uh, you know have a greater whatever it is for one thing I think we would find that some tags have a much higher project load than others Um, which which would eventually when we have enough volunteers probably lead to maybe splitting a tag um the And you know on top of which When other folks Um need to come in and say, okay, which tag do I talk to about this project? It would be Really nice for them to actually know the answer to that without having to ask five people. So I'm very plus one on on just and for some projects, it's going to be arbitrary, right? They're definitely projects that are like 50 50 between two tags But we can make a decision and just you know, assign them to one tag or the other possibly partly based on workload I I think um, I mean we we can choose where we want to record it But the new landscape has a way of allocating a label as to which tag it belongs to And I think we need to go in and just do a bunch of PRs and populate those Um, I I think it's awesome. It's more than just the PRs the fact that There are a lot of folks in chat that are unfamiliar with the fact that that filter exists tells me that there is Some education or awareness that needs to happen with the landscape. Um, and I know Breon is working on this. Yeah, thanks nick um So we just generally don't have a lot of visibility Um around what it's what it's happening Um there So something that definitely needs to occur, but I think that's a separate conversation um So what I'm hearing is we have some general understanding of like the basics of the tag like core functionality It's the gray areas that I think are really interesting here So what what I want to do is like I kind of want to run through with with you all here What I've heard and and make sure that we're all in agreement on a couple of these things that are just like bread and butter for each tag The tags are SMEs And create a group to develop subject matter expertise within cloud native for that particular domain Sounds about right Yep They extend the expertise of the toc um They provide education to the community to adopters to projects to support adoption of cloud native and cloud computing concepts Yeah Um Some of those education opportunities are footholds for new contributors to enter the ecosystem to get a foundational understanding of this Um, but it's not just education and white papers that do that There are other opportunities that tags can serve is that front door to cloud native Would that be a fair assessment? I see some head nods Okay um And then supporting a project's life cycle I know alex you had said supporting the project's life cycle, but I want to append that to say within the cnc f um And and here's my question to you all on that one is Should the tags be more engaged with projects With their life cycle or should we kind of limit it? I know that we don't have a ton of contributors or members within these tags to be able to do that Um, but should it just be restricted to the maturity levels and the moving levels process and providing support to them Or should it be somewhere in between those two? Engagement directly with projects in their life cycle where the work is being performed in addition to providing that additional level support on moving levels Reaching incubation status and reaching graduation status and then beyond Is it worth distinguishing that? Katie you came off mute Yes, um, I think it should be somewhere in between because Some of the tags they are proactive in outreach as well. So I think there is like two separate Kind of supports they can offer one of them is for existing projects and perhaps guide them and I emphasize the guiding Um We're pure and then the other type of outreach is for projects that would be a good fit for cnc f and they would Invite them or Perhaps like again guiding them towards towards cnc f So I think there's like two so like what I can see it's somewhere in between Okay, unless we want to define the proactiveness in a completely different point uh tag contributor strategy and then karina Um, yeah, actually speaking of our tag contributor strategy here, particularly the projects moving levels working group Um, as we move towards adopting the new thing the new checklists It would be really helpful to have tags involved with some Certainly with some aspects if not with more aspects, right? Because Presumably the tags contain folks who are Have a lot of domain knowledge So things like they're a lot more prepared to evaluate things like the level of actual adoption Of a project within that domain Then people who don't have that domain knowledge um So I think tags should be involved with the matriculation process um at at each stage, um I I don't know if they should be driving it. Um, but I think that they should definitely be involved with the evaluation Okay Karina, thank you um So as we're talking about this um a couple of thoughts one yes that the tags should be involved somehow but Keeping in mind. How are we making sure that tag? Um chairs and tech leads are also avoiding burnout and then also cross tag um collaboration um, so adding to alex's list um How are each how are the tags? Yeah, again just collaborating and um For example, if we have a project come through tag app delivery as we have like You know and invite tag network to come, you know to the same meeting or Like what are different ways that we can brainstorm? um more efficiency and awareness um across the tags While also, you know scaling the toc um And then on top of that, how are we scaling the tags themselves? with You know the ambassadors of the other ideas that have come out recently um, but Back to the project oversight um, it would be helpful to at least for tech leads to Keep an eye on the road maps for the different projects um, that would be one area that would be helpful and then um I lost my other thought when I saw your hand go up. So go ahead alex or sorry All right, so so I was just going to say um to me it's it's Maybe a little bit more simplistic and I don't do like um underestimate like the cost of burnout and all the rest of it, but Ultimately, there are a bunch of things that that That have to be done per project and the toc is 11 members and that hasn't changed despite the fact that the number of projects is skyrocketed and the number of sound box projects, etc has skyrocketed so I think I think at a very start We should be able to attempt to formalize some sort of process where If tags have the capacity um, then allow to use lia toc liaisons to delegate certain parts of the work, you know, like if there's Some due diligence work that needs to be done or there is, you know some some some part of the project lifecycle that that that and otherwise busy to see member would have to do like there's no harm in Delegating it if there is a capacity to do that and if there isn't a capacity to do that then that in itself should be Kind of like a flag that helps prioritize where we're trying to get resources going forward, right? because because this kind of like builds the pipeline of of, you know tech leads and co-chairs if they can be involved in those sort of things because I think, you know, lots of tag members join because they're interested in a particular Initiative where they want to be seen to be, you know, helping the community in some way and they need to have an opportunity to do that White papers and some of the working groups and things like that are definitely one way of doing that But if they had an active role That the toc was delegating to them. I think we might see more uptake And if we don't then well, it's still but to see responsibility and they're lumped with it Lynn and then Karina Yeah, this might be a crazy idea. I was just After I hear you guys were talking about the issues and the improvements to the tag I was thinking, you know for the project we have Health check for the projects. I think it would be actually pretty cool to have Some metrics to measure the health of tag Because coming from the background of tag network Which we which I know, you know, it would be good to kind of We've been trying to work hard to revive tag network, you know, I have more energy I think it would be good to have like a health Check dashboard kind of some metrics to measure the health of the tag You know, do we need more tech need? You know, is The current co-chair should we rotate some of the co-chair out, you know, this would help us making The right assessment to to Alex your point to be able to fulfill some of the responsibilities You are proposing here, which I think many of them does make sense and resonate with me Hey Karina So my my other thought came back. Um, it was the Alex when you were talking about and in the the chat Kind of the The working groups and the white papers that come out um, it would be good to define as As the chat is saying, you know, when they're spun up when they are spun down And so the CNCF doesn't start looking stale Including the white papers at least in tag app delivery. We've talked about, you know, doing um A quarterly updated, you know A certain amount of time check on even the white papers or other deliverables that come out so that they are not stale and outdated as well And when should they be archived also? So just some more thoughts I want to point out real quick in chat. Um, josh had recommended a new discussion on health check for tag um And I want to make sure that we're we're clear that if we're going to go down that route We have a very clear discussion on what are those metrics that we're going to measure against what it How explicit are they? Um, and how we can capture them So lots of thoughts there. Yeah Yeah, just to be fair This is an idea from a couple of other folks including Katie I'm just I was just thinking about how would we construct that? And there there are some technical problems there, so I'm going to start a discussion through it So people can have ideas about how to work around this Thanks And then Katie you had mentioned as well Having a page where people can find open tag roles. It's it's difficult To find What those are what's available unless you're already in the ecosystem But I want to tease that apart a little bit more Because I this has come up in repeated conversations both with past to OC members as well as New attendees at kubecon other folks that just reach out to me randomly on slack And they're trying to make sense of this complex ecosystem is Is difficult to understand how you can get started in CNC Like there isn't a clear front door And I I constantly recommend to folks What's your background? What's your experience? Let's get you aligned in a tag and you can First show up and understand what it is that they're doing, but I feel like that's still a lot of heavy lift there isn't a lot of Focus and the tags for what it is that they're all accomplishing So that somebody can self-service and go there and see I see all the tags I see what they're working on. I can I can see myself having an impact. Chris. You said you have clotributer.dev that is a Very difficult thing to pronounce clotributer.dev Which is alpha and can probably use that as a tag list for areas for folks to get involved. I love that idea This is excellent Um, but it looks like it's a little bit more focused on the projects and code specific potential contributors Not necessarily Ah, thank you so Looking to make changes to that to allow for more non coding contributors To have an impact and to understand how they can contribute to cncf. So this is great. I'm happy to see this Thanks, ryan. All right, so I've got a lot of really good notes um We talk about Collaboration with other groups in and out of the cncf both to ensure consistency on on some of those. Thanks josh for posting that discussion We also talked about cross-tag collaboration and ways we can brainstorm efficiency and awareness across the tags I think part of that is what these monthly meetings with all of the tag leadership and technical leads is to identify areas for efficiency And awareness so if you're working on something Talk about it. We have um the mailing list That we just started this go around around what are the tags working on? Where do you need help? What requests for support do you have? um I think that's helpful in driving that that efficiency or awareness and scaling the toc because I can see everything that you all are working on and it's fantastic um We Alex you should also mention that sometimes have specific functions, but not all of them I'll get to you actually Kathy go ahead before I continue Okay, so Yeah, um, I'm thinking you know because uh each tag It has a specific technology domain, right? I think it'll be great if we can connect the tags with And it was a tag. We have a tag, right? Um, so if we can connect them, you know, I don't know whether there's any Collaboration or communication between tags and and they can use a tag It would be great if those if they can be connected so that you know the tag can know, you know, what are the What are the gaps or the pinpoints and users or challenges the end users are facing and then the tags come Work on that or can solicit, you know, new contributors or new projects Or or you may shift new parts to work on that So I want to make sure that I understand it. Um You're talking about uh collecting feedback from potential adopters so that the tags can Identify areas of improvement or deltas and work to bring closure to those gaps. Is that correct? Yes, yes Okay, I think that's something that the end user technical advisory council or committee Would be beneficial to provide and I know that's not something that we've discussed yet because that group is still being stood up But I think it's definitely a good note to have for when we engage with that end user tag End user technical advisory board. That's what it's Engaged with the tab so that this is on their radar and we can ensure that we're considering that For our discussion with the tags moving forward. So I've got that one recorded Go ahead Alex on on that point It has been historically like ridiculously hard for tags to engage with anybody from the end user community Like in the past I think we did we attempted to do You know survey or try to get their feedback in some way to kind of more to sort of Specify look what areas do you want us to prioritize? You know if we are working on uh a white paper, what are your pain points that you want us to look at next and It's sort of you know, low single digit percentage response, right? It's it's very hard to to get that and the and the secondary part of the problem is But if you open up end users the tags and the tags get flooded But by vendor is wanting to approach the end users because like this is you know product market fit heaven for them. So There there there is that danger that you kind of alienate all the end users So if if we had like some specific things that the toc said, hey End user board, you know, what are the Top 10 things you want the tags to look at and ask them officially informally and let them come up with a reply That might be really useful You know in order to say these are the things we're going to look at next and these are the projects We're going to target next for sandbox or whatever I think that's a good call out for the toc as a part of that relationship with the end user tab is facilitating that relationship For the tags to advance that area um for the end user ecosystem I think that's a good call out and I think that is something that we can Very easily start defining within the toc once we have that relationship established within the end user tab Um, so I really like that one Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I'll add that too. I think you know, um, the toc can help with that To the point around tags having specific functions we talk about tag security who does the security reviews Um, we talk about tag contributor strategy who performs governance reviews um The governance reviews and josh you'll have to remind me it's been a while since hey entered it into the pr Our governance reviews are posed in the new Matt matriculation process as a requirement because because a new matriculation process we've I put everything into a master checklist Of which governance is a segment um The um so is so is for that matter contributor activity The um And and that's actually why I was saying earlier looking to that why it would be very helpful to have The appropriate technical tag be involved in that process as well Because there are some things that are gonna be easier for that tag to evaluate than really anyone else Yep I agree So we have those ones and I know that tag environmental sustainability has their grain reviews group Who performs another reviewing function? What do other tags have a similar capability or a similar kind of Consistency evaluation process for projects Um, for example api maturity If you are an incubating or a graduated level project, we expect your apis to have this level of performance or this minimum set of capabilities Um, do we have things like that within the other tags? um Speaking for storage, I I don't know that we have any of those documented for example But that would be a good thing to have I think it's kind of done intuitively based on the sms, but It's it's not written down arena uh, we have been talking about that and um tag up delivery, so PSA for everybody on march 6. We're talking about apis and what they mean Uh within the tags or within cncf And tag up delivery um so That is one area that we are looking at and whether you know It makes sense to have a working group on apis and whether they can assess api maturity because I I can see these reviews is assisting projects in cncf and um meeting Expectations or consistency of other projects so that if there's an adopter that comes to cncf They know All of our apis are going to hit this minimum bar all of the security Expectations of all of our projects have are at this level So that they're very clear on what they're going to get when they're adopting and integrating cloud native projects in their development integration environments and eventually deploying out to production Josh you came off mute Yeah, it's just a tangent issue. So I'm not gonna go okay, um So sounds like we have a few of them, but not all of them And that's fine, but identifying where those reviews can happen or where we can introduce consistency For cloud native projects as their moving levels. I think is important um There was discussion in the chat and here as well as around Working groups and the different kinds of working groups that exist. I know josh and I have had many conversations on working groups um And their their length of duration are lack thereof So it sounds like we have a need there to define both of those um We also had Specific areas that fold into the tags as well. Working groups can be used as a funnel for extending a tags function um The toc has been leveraging the existing tags to provide Governance structure for working groups and new technical areas like the AI working group that exists For instance so that we can determine whether or not it's Viable whether or not there's interest if there's projects And determine whether or not over time that there's enough interest in promoting from a working group into a tag So leveraging that existing governance structure to help that this is also one area um We talked about identifying and overlapping Identifying overlaps and gaps within cloud native the tags are really well suited to do this within their specific domain um We also talked about alignment of existing cloud native projects and proposed cloud native projects to the specific tags So sandbox um for instance What are they not There were only three bullets alex that you you had listed there not project governance But can support it and can provide guidance don't make decisions to make recommendations and there's no king making What else are tags not? I mean if that's it y'all y'all do a lot of things there's only three things that you don't do well So the reason why I listed those bullets is is more Is less about the bullets and and more about sort of Clarifying, you know any potential misinterpretation right the scope defines what we do um, but I didn't want At any point to be there any ambiguity. So for example, we're helping work on a standard That doesn't mean we're picking one project over another project. That should never happen You know if we're working on The due diligence for our project We don't get to make a decision on whether our project goes to incubation We make a recommendation and ultimately it's to see that has to make that decision You know, so so those are kind of like a couple of clear things to sort of say look We could do some of those things based on the scope But we don't go out of the lines kind of thing yeah um two other items that popped up in Slat or in the chat here is tags do not supply direct technical assistance to projects either Um, but more importantly they don't contribute to project code I want to put an asterisk on that direct technical assistance because I do think that there are occasions where The subject matter expertise that Exists within a given tag is necessary to support some of our projects and like Understanding multi-tenancy whether or not a proposal that they have Against the project to introduce some of these security control mechanisms or changes It actually will accomplish what they're intending to provide and sometimes that subject matter expertise in performing that review Is super beneficial and and ensuring that they're on the right track um, so That'll need to be a little bit more, uh clarified, but definitely agree with not contributing code to projects um, this is super helpful and we've got 15 minutes left um, so onto the gray areas defi you came off mute I did why why would why would we limit so the I think it's worthwhile to Call out that the tag itself doesn't necessarily do that But the individual members might contribute code to the projects and I think I think part of that is to ensure that we're not positioning tags to create kings within the ecosystem um josh Also to avoid having the projects have expectations That you know if they get stuck because they can't do something that they can come to the tag for anything beyond advice I mean first of all again individual members can do things and in second there's Advice there's help with running the project itself versus making contributions directly to the project if you follow me and and um And it's more of a you know, hey, I'm in tag storage Like i'm volunteering for tag storage am I expected to Write code for storage projects on demand And the answer Come from the tag as a whole because that's absolutely not on target, but you know I was I was alarmed as firm as they were saying that we shouldn't contribute code and like I don't know Honestly, when you look at some other work that security tag does and those were two things i'm like Alex Hi, I was going to say like there is one obvious exception to that particular rule Which is when the tags or one of our working groups Actually own or drive the project in the first place, which does sometimes happen, right? Yeah, and we have a repo in our process set up for that because those aren't They're not necessarily cloud native projects that are going to apply to sandbox sometimes They're proof of concept. Sometimes they're showcasing that you can That you can interoperate or integrate different projects together to accomplish a solution that an adopter is actually Looking for like these five projects string them all together and then you get this I can see that As an example to showcase the power of cloud native Yeah, i'm i'm kind of thinking about you know, we're tag network I put together like you know A bunch of them in a working group have put together like I said the benchmarks for example You know that's that's codes Yeah, so this one I think needs to have Very specific language associated with it if we're going to include it And it's probably worth a discussion I think I think we we can kind of sort out the legalese by simply saying tags don't Don't contribute code to contribute its projects if they actually own the project then it's fine Still some more wordsmithing, but I think that's a good start Um and tags don't vote. Thank you rickardo for adding that one there Yeah, so it could you post your link the link to the chat, you know, what you Sure Oh, yes Okay, thank you Yeah, I would like to um Comment on what I just mentioned about you know if the if the A working group is working on a project or is initiating a project And that you know will fill some gaps Of current or solve a challenge in current cloud native on Field, I think you know, then, you know, they can contribute to the code, right because they are initiating that project They own that project right artist. Is that what you mean? Yeah, as I'm typing it This is a minefield, right? So so it just occurred to me that yes tags should not provide codes to contributed projects But codes for projects where the tag is the actual owner That's fine But then we also have a bunch of maintainers For various projects that actually sit in the tags and you know, like we don't want to kind of create Like a silly rule where Maintain our constant on the tag because that means they can't donate to a project then, you know So so I think we need to be a bit more practical here. I think This is one of those things where the guideline more than a rule Yeah, uh, definitely had this suggestion is there is no expectation that tags will provide code I think that's a good way of framing it um, all right So gray areas, I know we have nine minutes left, but I want to kind of touch on one of them Defining and influencing standards and converging around common goals I think that this is Important and it's something that shakes out as a result of providing that education and that subject matter expertise Is naturally tags are going to be positioned to provide influence over standards or specifications Or set in the framework for them to exist within cloud native So that projects can Develop against them so that our adopters have consistency in what they expect from cloud native projects. This is um, in my mind a little bit around like How we accept Specifications as projects within cloud native but require a reference implementation of them Those are all Examples of us starting to go down that path now it's cncf is not a standards making body That is not what we do, but we certainly have sway and influence over standards that may develop within industry as a result of cloud native projects And I think it's important that we Capture this as part of like like education awareness and advancing the technical domain But also need to be clear in that we are not king making in this space What do others feel about that? I see some head nods marina Yeah, I think that the the word standard here. I think is very tricky I think that has a very specific technical meaning of like there's a group that like You know says that the standard is correct But I do think that this idea of creating best practices that are then used by other groups to make standards I think is definitely A role that at least we in tax security have had I think some people who have contributed to the tax security White papers have then been asked by other actual standards bodies to then use that expertise Across there So I think this is definitely like a role that tags can play but I think not actually in writing standards But more in like making those best practices making those ideas that then become the actual standards Yep, completely agree excellent um Kevin why don't you come off mute kevin? I'll let you read your comments I don't know that your mic is working Hello, there we go Yeah, I'm just thinking about maybe we can make you more use of the project due diligence document because we We used to put a lot of effort on that right including the Tag tag members as well as the TOC members and I feel that the the DD document contain a lot of kind of expectation understanding about the project maturity and To my understanding previously we are kind of Making it use kind of more Among the you know the tag members and the TOC members. Maybe we can kind of Let more people know about it. If someone is kind of evaluating the project read through the DD document and they can get a kind of Overview from a lot of different aspects about the project maturity. Yeah Yeah, we it seems like we create due diligence documents for the for the TOC to get an understanding and to express that publicly But I don't know that we actively use them once they're once they're done and the vote has been made So I'm wondering if there's a potential for reuse of that content so that it's not wasted effort Karina Um, so when the new TOC Um approves the project moving levels the the new templates. I wonder if with the The one template like if it can be linked into the card for each project Within the landscape that way. There's just a common way for people to come in and then can automatically go and look at You know the history of the projects as they're moving levels and the due diligence docs Because that was a great point you brought up Kevin That's it. That's uh Interesting coincidence from a suggestion this that was actually something that we had talked about with I think it was the LFX team. They were working on a project health Dashboard that provides better visibility into like project health and maturity as it changes over time And one of the requests that we had with them is linking the DD into that Um, but it also sounds like providing that link out From the landscape into that kind of like project health page to show the projects improvements and and progress over time. I think would be beneficial to Ricardo you had a question around are we starting a working job? Are we going to collaborate on this to finalize the additions and the changes? I'm going to say no now And the reason why is I wanted to collect all of the information from the text because we have been talking about this for several cube guns, I feel like I know we have two a year, but we've had these conversations ongoing for a while and I want to Draw a line so that the TOC can make a decision with input from the tags and provide that recommendation back out for a public comment on the tags Um, I think we have a lot of good information Um within both the TOC and just from this meeting alone Um, we're going to take this to the TOC off site. We do have an agenda item specifically to talk about this My goal as part of that is to provide a concrete List of actions or changes that we're going to propose back out to the tags for a public comment period Um, and then from there we should be able to finalize and move forward How does that sound? That's good to me Very good excited It's it's it's it's kind of like we have Your typical new manager syndrome where somebody's being promoted to leave the team And they need to figure out how to delegate to their team members in order to actually be efficient. Um, we haven't done that bit yet Nope, not yet working on it though All right, um, we have three minutes left I am going to open it up to any questions that anybody may have before we end the call and just some quick notes Lynn Sun and Kevin Wang are now on the TOC welcome welcome and uh The election Where are we at qualification period is open for TOC nominated seats? So TOC members, if you haven't done it yet, please go through and complete the qualification once that's done We can get the ballots sent out because right now we are currently short one TOC member So we're technically down to 10 No pressure Question great, uh TOC members. We have a lot of work before us and we're going to have a very very busy off site Thanks everyone for joining the call today And I wish you all a happy Tuesday. Thank you Thank you George for running the slides Bye. Thanks. Bye