 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mr. Eric Liederman from late night with Seth Meyers Eric welcome to the podcast Thanks for having me Bart. Appreciate it. Yeah, man. This is really cool You are the man behind the rotating drummer I guess I'll call it program at Seth Meyers and it is just I Think it has done so much stuff for our community that it is just brought so many drummers up and give them a Opportunity to perform on TV. It's it's super cool. So I'm excited to hear about it today. Awesome. I'm excited to be here I love the I love the podcast and I Guiltally admit that I get most of my information of the podcast from Instagram, but everything I get I just love You're covering a wide variety of diverse topics in the drum world from history true history All the way, you know past and present and future. So congrats on that and maintaining an actually interesting drummer podcast cheers to you Thanks, man. Yeah, I kind of I hook people with Instagram and then I pull them in and then I get them with the podcast episodes But let's hop in and start with how did you get the job in 2013 working on late night? well, I I was living in LA and since About 2000 I've been a freelance comedy writer and producer. So my you know, I've always Hustled as a freelance a freelancer in that world Since college and that's that's my main, you know profession And at night for all those years like I lived in New York for like two or three years after college I did LA for about 12 before I moved to New York When late night kicked off and launched in December 2013 But all those years Freelancing hustling for TV I was also at night, you know four or five nights a week going down to my lockout in LA downtown LA and working on my own bands and I toured professionally as a drummer for a couple of years in that in that time And did my own bands as well So I was always trying to you know have my you know did my toe in two worlds and waiting for one to pop You know it was always my thing, but the reality was I knew was probably gonna being TV not just because my Skills and abilities as a drummer were pretty limited just to being a rock basher But I knew that you know as a as a television producer that that was that was gonna be not only more lucrative But also like more rewarding and quite honestly more likely to happen and that's exactly what happened But of course with this this kind of role. I Had the flexibility and the creative kind of leeway to create this program So my world's kind of converged under one roof Which I think is one of the most the best success stories for a niche television producer slash drummer Ever and only one probably yeah, but I mean it goes down in like infamy of like first off The late-night show in general is kind of like hallowed ground, but Fred Armisen is involved He's obviously the leader of the band correct correct all right, so then The reason it started and then I'll let you take it away though is from what I have read and it seems pretty obvious Cuz Fred is a pretty busy guy is He started on guitar Switched to drums and then his busy schedule made it so he couldn't be there all the time is that Kind of you are you're getting your info from a legit source This is no page six. You're coming and I'm gonna verify, you know right from the legitimacy of my My occupation tell you you are correct. All these things are okay So Fred basically in 20 or late 2013 before the show launched in early 2014 The show was originally gonna have a DJ and Then Lauren Michaels came up with the idea, you know and said hey, how about Fred Armisen, you know We get him to leave the band and he forms the band So as I was brought in to not do any of those things really I was brought in to co-run the show under The showrunner So that's a pretty you know for me to move to LA for this job You know was what I've been gunning for to work network to work at 30 rock Could you come back to New York was like really like okay? I've this is this is what I'm supposed to be doing and this is a big job And I was very grateful and I'd worked hard to get there So when I got there though, I was like oh a DJ I was like oh well we can have a band like we could have like I didn't even think about that that was gonna be my thing and My showrunner said to me is like well you should probably handle this because You know he was dealing more with the writing and set and the creative and I was there to kind of keep Every all the trains running but as like you know in the managerial road But like more is a creative producer and that means different things for different shows But for this show it meant clearly, you know managing and helping Fred put together the band So Fred brought in like couple guys that he really you know had known over the years and wanted sit Said Butler on bass such a boring guitar Eli Janney on keys and kind of the associate MD who runs things You know with tracks and organizing the band from musical standpoint And he keeps everything running, you know internally with them and I kind of oversee the whole band But long story short. We had just a couple weeks to put the band together We had Kim Thompson on drums great player and Fred. Yes, correct. It was always playing guitar and as The kind of you know the weeks and months roll by and the show evolved Kim left Fred is like well. I'm gonna play drums like you know, I'm a drummer first We all know Fred's Fred is an inspiration to people like me I don't know if anyone's ever said this to you or any listeners have heard this where it's like well you can only do this thing never wants to label you and put you as like you're at this and You can't be that you have to just stay in this lane so Fred is band leader Fred is on drums and there's correctly Fred has crazy schedule stuff So he's doing TV shows he had Portlandi at the time. That was this like full-time gig And then he was doing cameos and movies and his own stand-up sets and touring and then music stuff on the side So basically we would have like you know a local this guy Matt Schultz would come in and kind of do it and Then I sort of looked at well Fred's not here like why don't we just aim high and I'm gonna call Players I'm gonna aim high and cough like the best players. I know and then players that I met from touring You know over the years as well and people I'd even if I didn't tour them I kind of you know, I knew him from NAM or just met them randomly through being in bands in Los Angeles so that's really how it started and Fred was I think at first he was like, huh and then it's when he saw it happening He picked up pretty quickly that like this is a great thing Because you know, it's his band and I want to make sure he was comfortable And we're gonna be swapping out the drum every week with a new heartbeat as I say all the time And the band was new and then on top of the band being new and and not used to being on national television And me being in this role, you know, we were all the show is new for everyone I've been in TV forever, but I was basically like managing this band and then giving them a new drum every week And so they had to adapt there was a lot of adaptation If you know going on and figuring out how we bring the drummer and where we put them up If we fly them in if we get them a car how we get them the tracks is it in years how the cues happen What their day is like what the schedules like I mean, I could bore everyone pieces about you know Now it's easier said than done But at the time it was wild and each week I I would have the band the drummer come in and like play Like oh what band do you and I remember John Stan your was there from helmet. I'm like, oh, yeah What's your cover and then each week I'd ask the drummer. It's like pick a cover or two that you'd want to do And then I'll have the band learn it. So then I had the band like learning covers, you know And not usually with vocals. So it's like instrumental, you know tracks just for the nerds Who's like who followed the drummers on these bands be like hey were they week after week after week? Yes Hey, like I think I think they did Do we do like Tommy the cat with like Tim Alexander? I mean we might have yeah, I think I remember seeing that one I loved him. I love her. I love Primus Yeah, I was like Like Tim's gonna do this one and then I remember sipping like so I'm gonna play the the bass line that Les Claypool wrote. I'm like, yeah Yeah, you can do that. Okay. See you later Exactly. I'm like, I'll have to do it So they did the band is there's a lot of credit for figuring all that out and Fred deserves a lot of credit for trusting me to do this because it was an all a bit of a giant experiment and Seth and a showrunner Mike Shoemaker. They were like, yeah, do it You know, they trusted me to do it and they trust me to this day to do it So it was a bit of it's one of those things like when I was younger I'm like, oh, yeah, let's do this and you know, it was it was wild and then we promote their their wearers every night It was a it was a wild first couple of years. But yeah, that's that's basically totally just of how it came to be Yeah, I mean, I didn't think about this at all because sometimes with You know celebrities like Fred Armisen you you don't think of their Feelings sometimes, you know what I mean because you're just like you're a huge celebrity, but it really is a little bit of like Any drummer who has another drummer filling in you kind of think like you're a little like, oh, you know, geez That's my gig but it takes a lot of maturity for him To kind of just be cool with that which he he he is who he is which you know He's on another level of you know, he's very famous and all that stuff But it's really cool that he's okay with that and encourages it because it's take this celebrity out of it You know like take this celebrity out of it and put the drummer into it Like we all know when I what so I played with when I play professionally Scott Ian Of you know legendary metal or from anthrax and a wonderful guy and his wife Pearl Just two of them are some of the best, you know, two of the best people I know we've had a long relationship a long friendship and they gave me my break back in like oh 07 Saw me playing like with my solo band at the Rocksie and they came to see me And then they wanted me to audition for Pearls band and that's who I end up getting the gig but like God bless You know just the idea of You know being out in public and some being like oh there's my break And it's like then after I wasn't playing in the band anymore for two and a half three years later And I was like doing TV more seriously excited to sort of make a choice We had a bit of a rupture there for a minute and then I saw I forget was named from fallout boy wonderful player What's his name Andy Andy tons of tattoos Andy? Yes, the ripper. Yeah, he's awesome He played with them for a minute and my long-winded point is that like whenever someone takes your spot? Even if it's on good terms not good turn whatever it is Like there's a little bit of ego bruised there and it could be for your shitty bar band that no one knows about You know what I mean, but there is a real So forget the celebrity part and let's just get to the like the drummer part of like well You took my gig, you know, that's that's musicians, right? but Fred like explaining to him like what the need was and really like communicating with him and Working with talent for a while like he's he's a reasonable human being and he also understood what I was trying to do And he deserves really all that credit for letting me roll with this Yeah, he's like, oh, how cool that we had this person and that person like so it was just the best The alternative would be a I don't want to say a faceless drummer But you would just get someone who's a really solid session or maybe a Broadway drummer have them come in and kind of just play The gig not get much attention, but instead you turned it into something where I honestly think and in our community, which Isn't giant, but it's a draw to watch the show especially for people where it's like I just want to check out and see oh man. I love that band. Let me see their drummer It's a it's a new reason not that you need another reason to watch the show But it's a new reason to tune in. It's something always new. It's it's new interactions and I mean you are making From what I've seen a lot of the guys, you know You see on social media and they post the videos throughout the week and photos of their time there I mean like you were making dreams come true Like really it the level of what it means to people is so huge and I love to see that people's that's very That's very nice And you know usually I try to take whoever comes in for the week out for a meal if the week allows like sometimes it gets So hectic with doing the other parts of my job and this this part is kind of ballooned into something else Like sometimes I can't like make even the rehearsal for the day, but I know if the drummer is Competent after you know like Monday Tuesday I know that if something else comes up that I if I if I have to miss rehearsal I can't but it is a lovely Thing you know to see a competent player come in and also be competent doing this because you have a lot of players who come in and They're millions of dollars in the bank Grammy nominated or just known as like session cats highly respected in the community It's a completely new skill set that they're trying to crush in them in literally a moment They have a you know the morning rehearsal and then the studio rehearsal And then they have to be on national television and they really can't make any mistakes And if they do like sometimes I can clean them up and edit and sometimes I can't but when they're done You know they're there most of them are exasperated and exhilarated and kind of like Like it's a mix of those two things and they're just like thanks so much for having me and I forget that sometimes And doing this for as long as I've been doing it and the band too I think they'd agree like it's a lovely opportunity that it's really my pleasure to be able to do and I kind of can't believe that You know of all the things, you know when we were all young ones You know to be able to sit behind and watch Jimmy Chamberlain play and hang out him and Mack Cameron and Braun Dailler and you know John Theodore. I mean I can't You know, it's like I'm Terry Lynn Carrington, you know, I'd call you to I mean like yeah, and then I have to get the notes You know sometimes and like that's weird But like you know now I've also I've gotten over that hum too of like oh, yeah This is my thing and they have to do it my way because my way is the show's way and They have to fit into a system that works for the band and the show and me and Seth and all those things Some people don't get that quickly But when they do and then they get it right and they are very grateful for the guidance More times way money more times than not and I think just the whole experience for them It crystallizes and like, you know, wow, this has been an amazing week And so I think that's with anything though, right? You have to like you're doing your job. Hey, I'm so psyched to be on the podcast It's an honor. It's like yeah, but like and you're like, yeah, it's cool It's but like we are elevating drummers and musicians to a stage Where they might not have ever thought they could be and I try not to lose sight of that week after week for sure Absolutely, and there's sometimes mine is different where mine or more let's say guys or girls who are Some of the guests will be like older and they'll have these stories that are literally only in their brain And actually it just it just happened recently not to make it into a downer But a guest old guest on the show Ron Weinstein who was on who? Did he it was the adventure of tuxedo bags and he had an amazing episode with With Louis Belson was like the one who helped him start Ron recently passed away very suddenly and it made me think at 64 something which is terrible But it made me think how glad I am to have that story preserved In an audio platform where people can go back and listen to it and I think archiving absolutely archiving It's it's different though with it's similar but different But like people can you know in 20 years go back and watch their their week on the show and just take that with them forever And I think it's it's just incredible to be able to share that people are having the time of their life when they do it I mean, it's they are and you see their faith. They are I'm like, oh my god. You're having so much fun But you know not on my not I don't think anyone ever has fun on Monday Monday is the first day where everyone is collectively You know tightening their sprinklers when they're sitting on the on the throne Because they're like, oh, it's really even like, you know a lot of local players I say if I don't know them or I haven't been actively pursuing them because people I'd be up on Instagram and Admittedly, I have so many people who like I can't book or like I just I'm so from from the pandemic I'm years behind and like people I want to book and I still owe people weeks Oh, you know technically but like oh and it was happen and everyone there I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who feel I haven't seen them or I said I would like, you know, check them out But like I I also like let go a little bit and I'm like listen I'm I will get to everyone. It's also nice to have repeat customers come in I know we're gonna do great like if we have four weeks in a row of like new players That's a lot for me for My production staff And for the band, you know, and that creates a lot of agenda because it's all good in those first two rehearsals Like oh, they're great. And then they come out and then 200 people are sitting there Seth comes out and then they have to nail these cues they have to like not look like they're lost or scared and once they get through that Monday show and Relatively unscathed with most people do like, you know a hiccup here or there then Tuesday Wednesday Thursday, they really start to enjoy themselves and they don't want to leave like just the best week Especially if they're a drummer who hasn't gotten like their due or isn't like the central focus of their band Or in the drum world or they're a pit player or they're, you know, whatever it is It's about them as much as it can be about an individual on the show That's about someone else and this collective idea of Seth's late-night show They're being announced. That's right. But Seth says their name every night, which I think is the coolest I remember bringing that to him. I'm like, so every night we got to intro these guys They're a guest and like no there was never these weren't like the truth is there weren't like me negotiating or being like Hey, we should really talk about the drummer every night. He's like great idea. Yep. You will Yep, we'll do that. Yeah, and it's been simple and I am very again grateful for that because that could have been a hurdle too or it's like we don't acknowledge like these amazing players what we do and The band is there to support them every night as well So everyone it's a giant group effort in every regard to make that exhilarated drummer Stove to be there every week and every night You kind of took you know, you you you answered one of my questions before I asked is what does Seth think of the rotating drummer program? Sounds like he thinks it's awesome. You know, is he he is not Seth is not a musician He fully supports the program. I you know, they my insecurities one day He's gonna be like, oh, we shouldn't do you know, that's that's everyone's Kind of fear I think ever just like oh this ride is gonna end but he really understands the artistic aspect of this and He doesn't have to be a musician to get it and to me it's just like that signals to me that He understands what I'm doing and understands how important it is for artists and musicians to have a voice and his his specialty is You know, he's an improv, you know, you know amazing improv from back in the day And it's just an excellent writer great foil I mean all of the SNL stuff like he supported and lifted up other people his whole Career and he does that with guests the great. I mean, I think he's he I still think he's the best interviewer on late night And he's really people he listens to people and he may wants him to do great on the show There's no yeah, and he's not trying to make himself look great or get a better joke in the name He supports and elevates everyone. He's around On the show and he does and by announcing the drum every night He's continuing that you know that exercise and I think that is something that he look at the big picture of Satin what the show is it makes perfect sense and I just really appreciate that he does that It's really he comes off as a very nice guy and like supportive of people and not like Like that kind of like I bet that guy's a jerk-off camera feel You know sometimes you get with people on TV and and I thought the weekend update background was also very like Like you're queuing people up for other like you're queuing people up for success with their bits that they're gonna do or absolutely Segment you know so now I got to ask so in your experience of doing this You don't have to name any names or anything But have you had any maybe early on or now are there any like Situations where something's gonna go it goes wrong with the drummer Performing there's there's the wheels fall off kind of thing. What what are you doing? Yeah situation? Oh, I mean like I Definitely take less chances Based on my love of a player Then I did back in in the first few years. I definitely had people come in and No fault of their own. It's really more fault of mine. I take full responsibility Of someone who comes in and they either They're in a band. They've been playing with that band for years They played the song from start to finish which is basically, you know a composition Here I'm asking them to start and stop Randomly whenever we go to commercial whenever we have to stop down for something and then they need to get out of that You know phrase and signal very clearly to the band where the one is and they need to do it cleanly because you know a lot of times that fill or that That you know that part in the phrase where we have to wrap things up will be on camera and I can't really get out of it and my editor can't clean it up and It's almost not fair to ask some players to do that I think the the players who know how to do that the best doesn't matter what genre they are What kind of person they are what their background is educationally? They're just the best listeners are the ones who succeed In being the best at this job, you know on camera experience is great playing to a crowd is great But the ones who have everything are the ones I think who listen understand the gig because it's a gig It's not like a lobby. Oh, you were saying earlier. Oh, it's the greatest week. It's all about me It's really not they're there to support and I think a lot of people show up and they realize it's a gig And if I ever have to be firm with someone to be like you're ending your fills too quickly You're looking like you know deer in the headlights on camera These are all normal things to expect from someone who hasn't done this before But I definitely have to come in and There's been people in the past sure who can't end the fill Who again aren't aware that they're on camera Who aren't looking for my stage manager for the cues who aren't aware of like who can't pull out of the phrase Like I have to finish the phrase or I have to finish my fill or whatever And I've had some of the best players in the world not be quote good at the late night gig That doesn't mean that they're a bad drummer. They're just not great for me And I have players that are great and sometimes they don't come back again for whatever reason If like, you know, they didn't they just felt like it was a check on their resume or they didn't bond with the band as much like There's all sorts of reasons but like and there's some players So I know I just can't have back again because they didn't get it But those to be fair that happens less and less now The truth of the matter is and I and you didn't ask the question But I'll say it the players who haven't played with bands or people And I'm all for the youth and I'm all for the instagram players and stuff But there's a lot of players who come in and haven't had that experience of touring playing with bands and are playing for likes and and comments and brand sponsorships and and money from just turning the camera on themselves and they're great players They don't understand the gig that doesn't mean I'll ever stop booking those players because I think it's part of our Community and culture love it or hate it or just understand that it's a mixed bag I and I'm sure you agree, but it's like we got to keep investing in the youth The new technology and hopefully a player comes in who didn't get it or was like a little out of their out of their Out of their own head on an out of the league of what the gig is that they left a better drummer I don't know if that's hadn't been the case. I think a lot of people think they killed it from that world And they come in and they're like, yeah, like I did the Seth Meyers I got the gig and they don't realize like I'm like I never have them back again because they didn't get it But I hope that I make them like a better player and I hope the band inspires them to Listen better because those are the best players I think that's very well said where There's there was a debate online of uh It like went it was the viral kind of like someone posted some text that was like Can you be a professional drummer if you are not? Playing actual gigs like if you are operating just on youtube and you're just hot topic stuff Hot topic my my response to that would be if you're making money doing something I think yes like by definition you are technically doing it professionally I think that being said that there's something that's uh It's it's less it's so debated where it's like I still think you're very legitimate But like you said once you get and put in those hot seat kind of in front of an audience situations You may be kind of shocked and I feel like maybe they're gonna get some opportunities that they're not quite ready for And I'm speaking like I'm to some authority, but like maybe they're Given this opportunity like that because they have this great background and can shred But they didn't climb the ranks of the the clubs and stuff and it's it's just like whoa Jarring you know let's let's not let's let's the two of us not be self-deprecating about this because the bottom line is It is important and we are an authority on it and I don't I I'm all about adopt as I said earlier I will adopt the youth embrace with you know big embrace big open arms over here um And all about that opportunity, but it's like I'm not going to have I'm not going to like shy away from the reality of Yeah, those those things are important those analog things Touring playing with other bands coming into sessions and nailing it and and having everyone love you and doing your job first and foremost You know like I don't want to deal with your manager I mean if they're in a band I'll deal with their manager and stuff and that's fine I always have to deal directly with the drummer Phone if I don't know them phone call Or very intense texting like with benny grab I think eventually got him like a WhatsApp audio call like I know benny's one of the best in the world, but like I need to talk to him I want to make sure he was on the page but uh There's it's just like everyone has to go through the same thing and everyone Can learn from this gig and I'm never going to back down and say That like touring and gigging and session work is not essential to be a well-rounded professional correct We are if you're getting paid then you're to do something you're a professional and you have to be professional There is no debate on this topic is my point. There's no debate. No you if you want to be a musician Like okay, then you have to do it our quote our way if you wanted to be a drummer Then that's fine, but if you want to be a professional musician You have to put in the time and the work and be diverse as you can because Even the people are the most successful in this world Are they millionaires? I don't think so They are like they are there are very few spots, you know to Be filled like how many josh friezes are there in the world? You know I mean you could come in and and and play like anything rock You know like how many you know it's it's that thing are you playing jingles and playing on soundtracks? Like those are the jobs you want if you want to come in and just like Play to a camera all day like that's great But like now get out of that go on tour like get out there Use the camera and as it's a tool right use instagram as a tool to get your name out there Show people your skills and then go out on the road or be a session player like get Push into that world. It's it's just the launch pad and advertising as far as I'm concerned But let's not let's let's you and I right now end the debate To all the listeners out there about like can they be it's like sure you can be whatever you want You can say you're whatever you you are But if you'd like to be a well-rounded musician You have to go out and you have to get you know the scars of being on the road and dealing with other people That's that's a part of it big deal big and listening. So I've said a thousand and listening One thing so there's so many different drummers and you mentioned this before we started It's a great point is um And I am very aware aware of this myself and in my world. You can't just book people who you like and your friends and and uh, you know Genre players who you like like for me I can't just talk about things that I like I have to get out of my comfort zone Which has bitten me sometimes because I'm talking about orchestral stuff that I have no clue about but yeah Yeah, in your world though What was that process like of learning it because you're more of a rock metal guy But like Terry Lynn Carrington you mentioned like it's great to get out of your comfort zone The legend there's like a couple different categories. There's like Look, this is a let's let's back up the he band is a rock band So when you put a jazz drummer in you put a fusion drummer in Uh, you put a a gospel player in you put a pop player in You're you're taking a i'm always taking like a risk of another layer of risk, right? Because it's a rock band and it's like You know, uh, even like a clinician, you know type player like um Really you could come in and you can um, you could acd see this, you know And I need two and four and I need you to speak the fills You get the signal from our stage manager to wrap it up. Oh cool. I always tell drummer take a breath then Glock them Glock them Band those exactly are going everyone. Those are the one is Pat boom Debbie boom, you know, I mean all the stuff that we learned as kids Like that's oh do a fill it's like, okay. Well, what's a fill that 185 people know that the song is ending including Seth You know where it's like, oh the song is about to end like yeah, it's even Correct, even if people don't aren't musicians or aren't musical They know it and the audience knows it and when I have a drummer who can't get the fill at the end Doesn't matter what their genre of their background is if they're a jazz expert or a rock expert If they can't hit the one they're no professional. They're no expert to me because they're blowing the gig So I found Again, like where it's I knew I know whenever there was no mandate to be clear from anyone at my job like Book diverse book genre diverse But I knew to do this stuff because I've been doing producing long enough to know that like We you TV you want to get as many eyeballs as you can And the world of drums and drummers is big And when I came up, we all read modern drummer I read about also different kinds of drummers and I was some of them I was like I didn't want to try to learn this because I don't have the skill or the patience But like I respected them it's like when I I still haven't had Dennis chambers, but like Chambers come on there like would he kill it? I mean, I'd have to say yes, but I don't know Because he comes from a different world. He comes from a world of a lot of notes Um, and there's been a lot of players who come on who play a lot of notes and some of them play too many notes But eventually like I then that's when I get up. Well, yeah, like I'm like, hey Don't trick the band where the one is so you can do a sick fill Yeah, which that's why we love like Vinnie and these guys who are like mega drummers, but this really is like And I love how you said acd see it because we all know exactly what you mean Where you're just doing just just a straight two four beat But I mean you got to know how to play for the gig. I think that's The biggest humbling for guys like that. Yeah, no to play for the gig, but then also a lot of the fans Uh, when they find out like their favorite drummer is going to be on like, oh, this is going to be sick Especially the metal guys the clinician guys big chops guys who have that reputation of being, you know, quote sick drummers You know what I mean who have big chops You know, dany carries coming back on the show in a couple weeks and I'm sure it's just like, oh man Danny's gonna play some odd time crazy. It's like Yeah Now as the week goes on like maybe, you know The drummers I remember thomas slang would traded for is like on thursday With the band and they gave him space really to solo But he always came back and knew where the one was So even if like I was never like holding my breath Like the fills were sick, but he came right back and the band never had to guess And when I have drummers that come on and do that try to like trick the band like They're like, oh, they need to know where I'm going It's like no no no no you need to know where they're going and you need to speak clearly about where you are going You know in conjunction with them. Yeah, you're working as a unit. It's not about you So the players who do that They've come from all areas They're all walks of life all backgrounds all different training. There is no like One kind of drummer That gets it better than anyone else It's always a little bit of a crapshoot always with a new player and sometimes I players come back and they just weren't as good As they were the first time um, they get to in their head or they've sometimes like players have come in and they've had like surgeries or um, They like have been like oh just been like playing this more style music and like oh, I sort of forgot And I was always like a little like maybe you've done it before but you know drums are a mental Uh, you know a real mental exercise And if you're in your head and you're having a you're in your head. You're having a bad day. You're more likely gonna have a bad show um Yeah, and sometimes I get people are having bad weeks or months, and I'm like, man what happened but um There's just never been any like true disasters where I thought like I was gonna be able to air them. You know what I mean There's been a couple times where I've had to get on the kit though. We won't talk about that those are but that's We're gonna have to sit in and replace basically. No, no, no at just a rehearsal Show them Yes, and the room gets real weird. I hate that more than anything, but my job is to make sure that the band feels Comfortable with whoever is driving And if I have to quote embarrass a drummer embarrass people in the room feel embarrassed So be it. I don't have any time. We have a matter of hours on that monday You know especially like before the show starts and if someone's not getting it I'm not I can't tell them to leave I'm like you have to figure this out here's how to do it and then I might my rusty ass gets on the kit And then I pat boon debbie boon to remind. I'm like, oh But if you show them that that with the straight two four pat boon debbie boon that you can do it It's almost like here's the like I'm here's the you're drawing, you know Here's the outline you can color it in more, but you got to stay within The the lines that you're giving them it's almost probably a little bit, you know, like clear to be like here is the simple form Just stay at this and then you can embellish from there But that's probably you know helpful to see that you you think it is now sometimes I'm very clear about it And they they can't some of the players have too many chops too many tools You know our whole all our lives all these drummers like you got to like take from my tools And these are some of the things I use and then they forget how to just like Strip it all down and do its best of the song and we've been told that our whole lives through from our teachers You know and and players we look up to you know, like you want the gig play two and four You know what I mean play what's right for the gig, but you've spent Years developing, you know hitting the pad and doing everything that you're supposed to be doing um in a way I think personally that's why I I got a couple of gigs back in the day because I put on a great show I I was talking to adam willard about this who's recovering from um He had a motorcycle accident and he's like really working very Hard to get back um to 100 and I said to him I go For me I had back surgery in february and I haven't really played as as much But I'm just starting to feel like I can go in And and hit hit hard But if I if I just could play like just to play drums without the sweat And the feeling the two and four hit every molecule of my dna. That's why I do it I don't do it just to like oh, I love drums. I'm gonna sit in the corner and play quietly That's to me like that's what I want and that's what I need to feel to like be able to play drums If I can't do it that way It's like not gonna still be you know, man Maybe if I'm when I'm older like just playing but like it won't have the same satisfaction for for me you like the pressure Yeah, the pressure and but like also the physical I remember everyone ahead drumsticks came out and it's like you won't you won't get the vibration back like Dude, I want that vibration from woodsticks to go through all of my bones I want to feel exhausted. I want to have to ice after the show I want to not be able to talk to people for an hour after the show because I'm short of breath I think that's the way I used to play and I white knuckled But that's like that's what I needed and that's awesome. That's what works for me. But like, I mean I mean, it's awesome, but like stupid But I mean Adam Adam wants to get back to that stage too I can tell like he's like, you know, someone after a big accident would be Happy to be back at 90% and I know he wants me back at 100 for real where he was Yeah, and and he'll get there. Well, and yeah good, uh, you know well wishes to him I also want to mention while we're kind of on it's similar to that topic that I think you've done a very good job of doing a mix of Both male and female drummers because uh, we have a very male heavy world Um, I have found on social media doing what I do is, you know digging through youtube and posting old videos I try to post as many female drummers as I can But you know, if I'm posting something that's from the 50s 60s 70s, you know, even the 40s It's mainly men. So I am very cognizant of like when I can I'll post a really great female drummer Uh Nowadays there's a lot more obviously, uh, displayed publicly than there were then so I think You have done a great job of that Has that been something in your mind of trying to do a balance of you know Keeping it fair on both sides? Absolutely. And that's another thing I was saying earlier It's just a common sense thing to me. I think a lot of people get caught up in like Think it's political correctness or wokeness or something that they think um Oh being diverse and I think that word And that action has sort of been polluted a little bit and really misconstrued I don't I have women on just like I have um Multiple different genres on and people that aren't just like white rock guys Because there's nothing wrong with white rock guys. It just needs to be everybody There needs to be everybody because drums of all the instruments. What is more primal? What is more human than the drum? You know what I mean like what is more universal more universal instrument that anyone can do The drum, you know, I mean besides like your voice As an instrument, you know like the drum and to me it's just common sense And I think if more people use that common sense about things like well, why should it be it's just like I'm not I'm not a kumbaya person and and I don't think everyone should just oh, it's like all like You know peace peace pot man, you know like we're all one right, but like we are And you can do that without any sort of um Doesn't have to be a label and it doesn't have to be um Like an attitude or the way that I define myself or the show I booked drummers And if I booked a similar kind of drummer every week It would be boring And it won't be a challenge for the band and it's just about being human And it's like one of those things like I think a lot of people who are disgruntled or hit me up It's like oh well like you're not going to book me because I'm this or this kind of drummer and this kind of person And I think a lot of people don't say those things, but I think they're saying it and it's like Yeah, you're right. I'm not going to go like all these weeks and like not have a woman on because we're not representing properly human beings and and human beings play drums and um It's just like it's one of those things I get a little i'm confused why anyone would You know Think that it would be there's another way to do it Because there's not and that has been saying that is a giant omission over the years That men do or it's just like the idea that like men are better at sports and only men can do it's like It's it's just a hacky bit To me where it's like, oh no I bet it's just like okay If that's what you think but I'm gonna book everyone, you know I try to mix it up week to week too, you know, I have a lot of like metal guys like In general that I've um and rock guys that just have kind of been building up a little bit Just because it's weird touring and pandemic schedules and stuff and trying to coordinate all these people Um who I know the best and are the most connected to I still space them out the people I know less about because that's what's best for drums And that's what's best for the community whether the community. I don't need any Add on the back from the community. I appreciate it when people notice That's a nice feeling but this is I'm doing it for what I think is the correct way to do it Which is everyone should have a seat at the table when it comes to drums. That's not up for debate for me Yeah, because it's like it's the the ringo moment where the little kid sitting there watching tv Sees someone playing the drums and then falls in love with the drums and it's like, you know people want to see people who they you know kind of uh, they Recognize or they they feel connected to so it's it's important. Um If out of everyone you've had on the show so far, who would you say would be your Let's you can't say favorite. I know because you Who's your who's like your top three or five? You know, who's just some of your most memorable that mean the most to you so far It is difficult. I looked the one of the coolest things was the when the modern drummer Cover came out and I'm like man. I can die now. That was like pretty fucking for me With fred and I doing that. Um, yep When that came out and they had a section listed everybody That I've had up until like a time of publication I was like, you know the comedy Person in me my whole life was like I don't have much of an ego and I should probably figure that out. That's a smaller meeting of how I Fixed that and pushed my own You know, I did this but like to me. It's not about me. It's it's about again the community and about I I get I get the experience of being around these people and seeing their talent And again, like I've said a couple of times I get to put that talent out there for the community And the truth of the matter is I wish more people in the community Realized that what I was doing is um for everybody Um, if I could have one one one criticism of or I think people think like why him or Why does he decide I'm just like We're here for everyone We're here for drums. It's not about us. It's about the drummers like that's what it's about And then when you see drummers the other people playing on their instrument supporting it Playing actual instruments, which is not exactly something that is on I I wouldn't say it's on the up and up with like more. I think there's more shortcuts to learning and mastering an instrument than ever as far as like It is it is difficult for me to to give you favorites I mean, and I probably could have answered this question better a couple years ago, but now I've been spoiled with so many players and also becomes about their personalities and just a handful small amount of them are actually real friends, you know, like we are actually like Have a connection that goes beyond drums and is more interpersonal and about um relationship between two people which I'm always up for that It just doesn't happen a lot in life. I think for for most people but when these guys come and they show up and girls show and I'm just like I'm actually surprised by Some of the players that I don't like wasn't fans of like in the sense I'm like, oh, they're a great player have money, but I like I don't know their careers as well And then those people end up we end up being actual friends But you just don't know so I mean like it really is It really is tough for me to to say okay. That's totally fine. You love them all It's not even like in uh, it's it's just difficult like anyone who comes on I think in the last few years And remember we were kind of like off the air We we still did pandemic players remotely, which I was very very proud of that That we were able to keep it going and keep the band working and I missed a lot of those experience Like I remember I had mario de plantier who is a lovely person and just one of the best to do it um in in the metal world and and as a drummer and you know I didn't he's he'll eventually come to the studio, but like to to actually see that happen and for them to execute so well remotely um and understand the show Oh, it's like it's that universal thing of like well, I guess They don't have to be here to understand what the gig requires Because they could come the drummer would record first in the pandemic hearing the scratch tracks of the band And then the band has to play their real tracks over it So it gives the drummer to not have that pressure of getting notes from other players in the room because they're the guests You know technically they actually just have to play but sometimes a lot of them would like put too much in it And then the band would have to work around the drummer And then I get nervous like well if I bring them into the studio Are they Going to be get more in line or are they going to still try to like Be the center of attention whether they realize it or not because they're used to playing all those notes So it's just so hard to say it's hard to say who's Who know a lot of those people a lot of the pandemic thing though is super interesting where it's it's like uh I mean that was a weird That's its own whole weird out. We could talk about that for hours, but oh my god in general though That experience though and uh and overcoming it I mean what was the initial like Trials and tribulations with tech and just things like that and it was that what it was where people would just it was just Everyone does their own recording and sets up a camera and and works that way Yeah, but no one had set up very how many people had studio setups that were wired for audio and video before the pandemic Now though everyone does it's crazy. They did most most people who but there's a lot of people who Don't need that. I mean like John Theodore doesn't have that setup. He's one of those into man rock players I don't even think like matt cameron guys like that you could say like oh, they're older school guys But like there's guys who are older than who have that stuff set up because their business is more about Touring and their reputation is already cemented and not everyone needs it like Also becomes a thing if you're a touring player like when you get home and you're in your home studio You're not there to like just really play for everyone and have them see everything in perfect audio and video It's it's not everyone's priority But like my point is that before the pandemic no one no one had anything And so we were figuring out with it was more about me my editors And you know elie janny, you know a keyboard and associated md figuring out how to get the tracks And these guys were Didn't have a lot of most of them didn't have any help because of covet had either go out and buy like a lot of them Would go out and like buy their setups or it motivated them If you want to be on the show you need a setup and like well, I should probably do this anyway So a lot of people I think now Have these setups Because I feel I want to feel that I kick started them to be like You got to figure this out like you know your bass drum shaking the entire shot So they had to go get stabilizer. Oh my god, and it was like Friday And they did it. They would they would record it an entire I go. Hey, don't record Don't record a full day Or even like more than a couple tracks until we hear it and my editor sees it elie sees it and I see it So we know it's good for air and some people would just like I got this and they were really here's monday And they would send all the files and all of it was unusable like and then I'm like tuesday wednesday thursday And I go and they change clothes for each day They change their backgrounds and I go none of this is usable because you didn't clear with me first So there was a lot of frustration. There was a lot. It was and I was also doing my job of Trying to get the zoom set up for the show. No one knew how to use zoom No one knew how to get great video and audio for seth to record guests Seth was doing his own video and audio the director was trying to like figure it out like we were all Getting files uploaded to us to have to cut over Some some of them are janky internet connections Badly sounding rooms bad badly lit rooms, you know low res cameras. I only have an iphone, you know six to shoot this on So i'm it's like Okay, we need something else like well, I can't afford it and then I have to like unbook people Like it was i'm so glad it's over But i'm so proud of the fact that we kept the band and And some you know as many drummers I could for those weeks working During a time when no one was working And I'm very appreciative that people pulled pulled that off my team The band and you know that we were all able to pull that off together because it could have easily gone Let's just let's just you know roll old band tracks from the studio With no video over the bump in and outs and not show the band Yeah, and that would be then when the that would be then when the rotating drummer program like Doesn't come back because it's like well, we're fine now. You know what? I mean you you you kept it going and not that it sounds like anyone At late night or like I can't wait to end this drummer thing, but it's like but things just like It's an extra thing to do. Yeah Let's say like you yeah Oh, um, it's a lot of people get that FOMO, you know when they're like, oh, i'm going to take vacation And it's like oh like I have all this vacation time to use up I'm going to take it for a month and then after a month people figure out how to do your job without you And I think that is a thing too where it's just like, you know, it's easier this way Let's just do it that way. It's a but like look if you take the band out of late night It's not late night To me. I mean you don't have a live a live band there like it just becomes a different show It feels to me it feels much more budget Um, and I don't think you're supporting the host as much and or the genre And I think again kudos to sassan my boss who are just like They understand my vision fred of course like and fred was fred at one point Was in london shooting something and I think it was I don't think kaz ended up getting it to him But kaz Rodriguez was like if fred needs an electronic kit because he had his weeks I could find a way to get him one. I think fred ended up renting one But he set up an electronic kit In his hotel room and did his tracks there While in between like shooting for whatever movie or tv show he was working on And that's a real testament to him being like this is going to keep going. We're going to keep doing it What a pain Like I've been asked to do things like very very flattered Like even indie drum collective or some charity feel like hey, will you record something? And play this thing on drums everyone's playing this song or do you want to do a cover? And it's not even about like my insecurity is like I'm not a great player And he as good a player as I used to be because I'm just rusty It's like I don't want to set up my video and audio and mic everything and it's a pain. Oh, yeah I think I have a dtx 10 yamaha one That um that uh, I was sent And it's in the box Because I'm so lazy That like I don't and I don't want to um, I don't want to set it up anymore Like I did all that stuff as a kid I would experiment with mics and rims mounts and different room isolating, you know You know, oh it's stuff on the walls and now I'm just like I don't want to do this So kudos again all the drummers and uh and the band and fred who kept that going during the pandemic And allowed the band and you know, yes, I said we should keep doing this But like ultimately if people didn't want to do it a that'd be dumb, but like People realize Let's keep this thing going and it's it was really great to see everyone rallying around once again drums and music Musicianship for the show for sure. I didn't it didn't even occur to me the whole keeping drummers with gigs and I think that's super cool that that's like a Uh, very meaningful thing with through the pandemic getting people jobs. Um, yeah big big big deal to me very important to keep it going Awesome, Eric. Well, um, so you yourself though, we've talked a lot about drums and you know, and and you know What you do with managing the he band and you and kind of running the rotating drummer program But you are a comedy writer. You do a lot more on the show than just the drum stuff So I'd love as we wrap up here Um, why don't we talk about like that side of it? Like what do you do as a producer on the show? Beyond the drum stuff I was brought on when the show launched in 2014 I was brought on the end of 2013 To co-run the show as a as a producer My background Before that like I think my my job before that was running a show called impractical jokers Um, it's like the head writer and and showrunner of that show And then I also ran another show Kathy Griffin had a talk show Um, and I'd done a couple of things at that point. Um, that were showrunner level producing jobs In showrunner producer a lot of these titles mean different things at different places but I've always prided myself as like Being a writer who could produce and being a producer who could write I'm definitely more of a producer than a writer just because I'm lazy and ultimately I rather um Oversee and keep the trains running on time and guide and enhance creative with talent You know punching stuff up making it better That's kind of my area of expertise and working with talent to to do that has been my You know, what I like to say is hopefully my 20-year track record um On late night, I was hired as an in a non-writing capacity Which is not say it's not Creative it's just I don't work with the writers or create actual written comedic content for the show But I was hired because I've had the experience of being around those things and knowing With and knowing like how to be around those people and how to make them better and enhance their creative So I've been doing that. I started the daily show in like 99 after college and from there I worked for like Andy dick and I worked in like The ellen show and I worked for zack alphanakis and I worked for sasha baren cone david spade wandah sikes Collin quinn like my I always worked in comedy and I even sold like a game show that I hosted That never went anywhere, but like we had a lot of fun doing it and waste spending other people's money And I like was in commercials and I I did a lot of stuff in addition to trying to be a professional musician during the majority of that time because in this world of arts And creativity and everyone thinks it's you know, you know, it's romantic and fun It's hard work and my attitude was to throw everything out there and see what's what's stuck And I think getting hired at late night was kind of the culmination of all having experience in all those areas and veering more towards a showrunner and for this job for late night as a co-showrunner co-producer to to kind of use all those skills and When the band thing happened and the drummer thing happened as I mentioned earlier It's about recognizing how to work with talent and my access to all these drummers made perfect sense But I use all these skills Every day and I'll tell you the back of the day a lot of agents and managers wouldn't represent me Because I wasn't singularly focused enough. They thought I was too. I was too broad and That's like telling someone now like who makes her own content. Well, I don't know how to edit it I don't know how to shoot it. I don't know how to host it. Look at you You know, you're doing every aspect of production to be a one-person machine To execute your product and I I My only regret in in my production career is Not knowing enough about editing my own stuff and the technical side of it. I know basic stuff I mean, look, I got I knew how to get us going in the pandemic and the tools we needed and We were mostly successful with that with keeping the show in the air and Certainly required a lot of other people and tech to help us get there but to be an all-in-one writer, producer talent And to know how to do all areas of production and but the budget all these things locations To to have all the experience. I've had and always always firmly staying in comedy Let's me still do things on the side like I definitely need to you know I'm working on my own writing right now and Getting more back into that and I write scripts for pinball, you know games For bands like everything rush. Thanks. Well, yeah, it's it's such a nerdy fun thing to do I'm lucky enough to do it. I did made in behind me. I did rush Um, I can't say the next band I did but there was giant rock band I did has a machine coming out next year and a even more giant band That's got a second machine coming out next year that I can't say either but um I love being able to do this stuff and it keeps my comedy chops tight And my and my late night job Uh, it's just it really encompasses all creative things. I like to do even if I'm not writing on the show it burns enough Comedy gas and creative gas You know, it is niche as they get to be in my world. I'm so grateful to have it really. It's a great gig Yeah, that's it's a I mean that's like I feel like that's something where people don't realize that's a job Of writing that the stuff for the pinball machines, but someone has to do it And it takes creative people Yeah, I mean I but I say that as an outsider where people talk to me and they go How many episodes of a drum history show can you do and it's like I say 180 and then the list at whatever I'm at now But it's like people who are outside of that world don't realize the what goes into each specific hobby kind of Of everything. Yeah. Well, that that's a common misconception too about a podcast is easy Acting is easy, you know writing is easy because you're in this world. That's you're touching talent, you know You know, not, you know figuratively, you know in their orbit And I think everyone thinks that's sexy and And very cool and a lot of people like, oh my god, you met set like so-and-so was on the show Did you beat them and I'm like, no not going in and introducing myself in the green room You know to uh, you know, I think I did go introduce myself. I'm like, I need to meet clinton or I need to you know, like Or if I know someone who's on the show I go on of course, but you know, I really pride myself and Being a behind-the-scenes person who knows how to act as a behind-the-scenes person and do that work To support Other people who are more talented than myself and I I really enjoy that and I think that is a talent in itself I don't know If history will remember that and that's okay, you know, we're here History needs people to support and to push people An artist to keep to keep that stuff in in in the books and I think that's really important Absolutely, there's a lot of different roles and I never mentioned this to you, but as a tv guy I have a background and with my last job, but I I would do Work as an ad r recordist on shows. I did like arrested development Chicago med chicago pd law and order, which was I filmed it on Like monday and I think it aired on thursday, which was insane so The deuce which was I was cool to work do ad r on a show that I was actually watching and then record The dialogue for a show that the season finale aired and I was like I actually like this show and I'm watching it So it's cool to see that but that's my cool connection to tv But it's those small little roles that you never, uh, you know, you never know people are there recording But but sometimes those sessions would be 10 minutes long and like dolly partons heartstrings Like a little girl would come in and record two words and then leave and it's like well That was a 10 minute session, but you know it goes on my imdb bill them for the flower, bro Yeah, exactly. I think that's great. I I do think um to be really good at that too I mean, I have a lot of friends who started early out in in digital audio in like the late 90s I have two friends who I met when I went to college went to college in Iowa We were like at the forefront of digital recording and audio You know when we were sitting there like with oh you got a jazz disc You know like whoa, it's a gigabyte on one disc. Yeah um And they were recording like, you know not using tape, you know not using tape and And all the work that went into that and now the ease of which you can do things It's still hard, but it's come such a long way in such a short time and um to to still the master all these things and to To support your artists or yourself and to do it all yourself There's still very few people who are really good at doing all of it and I think sure the idea of You know this jack of all trades sort of sort of gets a bad rap that expression And you know master of none and and I'm just like I don't have time to master one thing and I don't have the attention span to master one thing To master one thing, but I do want to be very good at lots of things to make a whole when A whole piece of something like when need be and I think those there's more appreciation for those kinds of people nowadays and also an expectation that you have those skill sets And I try to tell that to young people all the time of like, well, I just want to do this and I'm like You have to do it all because then you're gonna you're gonna be better You're gonna be more appealing To employers or the people who want to work with you when you can pick it up And also who's mastering things You know like you can't it's almost yeah, you can't master it. There's so much to learn that if it's yeah Stop it. Just know just know lots of different things Exactly that's that's a good message. No, you can't master anything. That's what people can take away. That's it Awesome Eric. Well, this has been incredible You are just a very cool guy with a very interesting and Unique background and I think like like I've said this whole show you're doing something very cool for the community Before we wrap up. Is there anything you want to promote like tell people, you know Where they can obviously late night with Seth Meyers. It's pretty obvious NBC check your localist things You can watch it on peacock now Follow the show at late night. Seth Follow the ag band The ag band and then follow me at erx 11 and I think the question I get usually after these podcasts People a lot of drummers say things like I don't want to bother him You can hit me up on my dms. You should follow the show the band me and don't be afraid to send me your videos of your playing And if you want to be on the show hit me up There's no if you're a professional and you're out there playing drums and you're gigging and you're working hard I I think people are waiting to be asked and I think some people don't think they're ever going to be asked Or people don't think that they're good enough for it. It's just like hit me up. This is you know, this is 2023 people You can reach out to your heroes um, you know favorite bands and drummers and musicians and poets and painters everyone's got A way to be reached and if you want to be on the show hit me up There's no guarantees about anything and I have hundreds of people in the pipeline Who I've neglected just simply because of time and schedule But please don't be afraid to hit me up and I'll and I always I always pride myself on trying to read and look at most people But just send me a message and please please support local and live music and um keep buying band merch and going to see shows and supporting all your favorite artists and um and because what they do it is it's not free And uh, they need your support. That's the biggest thing I'll I'll say about that and and thanks so much to you for having me and for talking about drums and drummers And um keeping it niche. I love that because there's so much history It's yet to be uncovered and I'm glad that you're at the forefront of Of navigating that for everybody and bring it to the masses I appreciate it man. And thank you for taking the time on your vacation to You know vacation from the show to come and talk to me and um It'll be out. I think after it but happy Hanukkah to you which is currently happening right now Mom I was on a podcast and the host of the podcast Reminded me that it's Hanukkah. Let's light the candles tonight, which we will nine o'clock We're gonna do it. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for that. Absolutely Eric, thank you for being here. Thanks to everyone for listening and supporting the show and uh go hit up Eric If you think you are if you have the chops, uh, so Eric prepare for a flood of uh DMs and all that You have the ears part if you have the ears remember we don't we keep two and four baby Oh, yeah, no chops no chops. No chops need to fly. All right, Eric. Thank you my friend. Thank you, Bart