 Good morning and you're all very welcome to this special event jointly organized by the Institute for International and European Affairs and the French Embassy here in Ireland to mark and also to celebrate International Women's Day. I'm Martine Fitzgerald and I'm delighted to be sharing this discussion with three very distinguished and also very successful women from Ireland, France and Mali who have each served at a senior level in political life. So we are delighted to be joined this morning by Francis Sturled, who is a member of the European Parliament representing Dublin and a former Thaulisté, Cadet 2, Connare, the Minister for Culture, Crafts and Tourism of Mali and Najat Valot-Belkasam, the director of One France and a former French minister. Now, before we begin, I would just like to run through the format of today's event. I will shortly hand over to the French Ambassador to Ireland, Bonson, Guiron and the cultural counsellor of the French Embassy here in Dublin, Mariam Dlo, who has been instrumental in organizing today's event. I will then formally each introduce each of our guest speakers and get their perspectives on political life and decision making, also the role of education and equality in society as a whole, and also their visions for the future post the pandemic. Now, this session will be an hour long in total, and one of our speakers, Minister Connare, will be speaking in French today. We will have live French to English interpretation throughout this discussion. And to avail of this service, you can simply click on the interpretation button represented by a globe icon at the bottom right of your Zoom screen and then select English in the language options, which you will see displayed. If you don't wish to avail of the service, you can click off and the instructions will be made available also in the chat room. And there will also be ample opportunity for members of the audience to participate. You can submit your questions with your name and perhaps your affiliate organization via the Zoom rooms Q&A function at the bottom of your screen. And please, please keep sending your questions throughout this morning's event because we are leaving time to answer them. With that, I would like to welcome the French Ambassador to Ireland, Fonsang, Iran, and the cultural councillor at the French Embassy, Marie-Anne Diello. Ambassador. Thank you very much, Martina. Good morning to our distinguished panelists and to the audience. Bonjour, mesdames, bonjour à tous. Especially pleased and honoured to open this debate on the International Women's Day. This year, France and Mexico will also be co-chairing the 2021 Generation Equality Forum in French Forum Generations Egalité, a global gathering for gender equality organized by UN Women. Thank you, Mrs. Fitzgerald. Merci Madame Connaree, merci Madame Malou Belcassem for your participation to this exchange and thank you for IEA for organizing it. And I also want to share my speaking time with Marie-Anne Diello, our cultural advisor at the French Embassy, who was enthusiastically and resolutely carried out his project at the French Embassy in Ireland. Thank you, Marie-Anne. Thank you, Mr Ambassador. It is a great honor for me to be able to bring together three countries that are so dear to my heart, Ireland, Mali, and France. Even though the role of women within political institutions has increased in recent years, we know that the road ahead will still be challenging. For me to express my admiration of our distinguished panelists coming together from different backgrounds and cultures. Thank you for being here. While the COVID-19 pandemic has placed women all over the world in even more precarious positions, this International Women's Day, your journeys and your testimonies will be incredibly encouraging for the future and for a more equal recovery for women all over the world. Thank you. Thank you, Marie-Anne, and thank you, Ambassador. And now I'd like to introduce our guest speakers. We're delighted to be joined this morning by Francis Fitzgerald, an MAP representing Dublin. Francis has served in national politics for more than two decades. She's a former thornishter who has held numerous high-profile cabinet ministries, including justice and equality, business enterprise and innovation, and children and youth affairs. She has also served as a chair of the National Women's Council of Ireland, vice president of the Women's Lobby, and is currently a member of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee, the Women's Rights and Gender Equality Committee, as well as the Development Committee in the European Parliament. We're also joined this morning by Katia Tooth-Connery, who is the Minister of Culture, Crafts and Tourism of Mali. She is well known in the world of African publishing, is passionate about culture, and is also a human rights activist. She also founded a publishing house, which has made a significant contribution to African heritage. And under the direction of the Malian journalist, Ramata Diaouro, she brought together key figures to write the collective work about the Women's March, a chronicle of the Malian Revolution. Now, finally, we would also like to welcome Najat Fallot Belkasam, who is the France Director of Warn, an NGO campaigning to end extreme poverty and preventable diseases. She also has a distinguished political career serving as Minister for Women's Rights, and was a government spokesperson under President Roland. And she also holds the title and the distinction of being the first woman in France to be appointed Minister for National Education, Higher Education and Research. You're all very welcome, and we truly do have a very distinguished panel this morning. And finally, if you do want to get involved in this morning's webinar on social media, you can use the handle on Twitter at IIEA and at France and Ireland, as well as using the hashtags, hashtag IWD2021 and hashtag choose to challenge, which of course is the theme of International Women's Day. So this event is public and it has also been live streamed on YouTube. So without further ado, let's begin our discussion. I would first like to turn to our guest speakers and to Frances Fitzgerald. Frances, can you tell us about your own political experiences in terms of seeking and entering office and decision making in political life at a senior level? Good morning, everyone. Obviously, Martina, thank you for that question and I'd like to also thank the Institute and the French Embassy for having such an international panel and focusing on International Women's Day. And I suppose what I would say at the moment in regard to International Women's Day is that it is a time for celebration, but also for taking an audit with COVID and the implications of COVID and the differential effect it's having. My own political career. I never started out really to be a politician. I was a social worker. I did a basic social science degree and then I did a masters in social work and it was really my experiences of both my social work in London and Dublin and seeing social problems as they emerged that was really a passion, I think, for equality, inclusion and diversity. And that really I've carried right through my political career and I've been very fortunate and honoured to have the opportunity to be a minister, as you said, and to work on those issues at a ministerial level and to bring forward legislation in relation to those areas. And I suppose when I was working early on as a social worker in Ballymon in Dublin with community and with families, I focused on work with families and children in the early years. It was ironic then later on I became not really ironic but I mean I suppose I never expected it that I became the first minister for children. And it was really my work on equality on women's issues on reading books like Betty Friedan and the second stage following American feminism, organizing conferences here and bringing people from abroad to speak at them. And I'm gaining understanding about the structural inequalities in our society that led me into politics after having been chair of the Women's Council for four years. And, you know, I've had the ups and downs of any political career, and you certainly have to be resilient I would say. One of the things that the teams I had focused on at present is that we, we still have unfinished democracies as I would call them. We still lack the critical mass of women and men working together. We tend to have too low percentages in decision making of women, both in politics, particularly but in many other areas of business as well. So we're changing, you know, we are on a journey. And, you know, again, well done to France and Mexico for doing generation equality this year. Young women I think are becoming more and more activist. We're seeing the me to movement. I think there is room for optimism, but equally, we have to be very aware of the challenges still out there when you think in America for example, the percentage of those who go for food stamps are women. You think of poverty around the world in Europe you think of the gender pay gap, still 14% the pension gap is 139%. So there are many ongoing areas that we have to work on. And I started off by saying we have to recover from covert and make sure that equality doesn't regress, because that's the big danger at present, given the differential impact of COVID. So I would say it's a privilege and all of us here, where ministers or our ministers, and it's fantastic because you could influence and you can bring about important change, and that's the privilege of being in politics I believe and that's why it is very worthwhile. And that's why we have to ensure more women come into politics but I've, you know, being a mother of three sons has influenced me because you understand childcare issues in a very direct way, when you're facing them yourself. And there is evidence that women deal more with social issues and bring up social issues. By the way, Martine, I just discovered last night there is one study showing that women are more active in politics and bring forward more legislation. I was delighted when I had found that. I didn't know that was true, but I came across one study in a book I was reading last night about that. I think I contribute a lot would be my point when we're there, and certainly being in cabinet and I conclude on this. I have seen the difference between having two women in cabinet, three, four, five, and out of 15. So again getting that critical mass I think is really important. The record of four Irish women in cabinet was actually recorded in 2014 when you were a minister at that stage, and you have spoken about how that changed the dynamic within cabinet. I'm next going to ask a minister, a corner a also about her political experiences but first I want to ask her about her outfit because it is a very special outfit for today for International Women's Day, and also has a link to some women who are working in your country. Minister. Thank you very much. Hello and good morning from March to everyone. I would like to clarify an element that seems to me important, fundamental. Something, an element that seems fundamental to me. I'm a pure product of civil society as it is administered by the organizations, nor a pure product of politics but the meaning of my social and intellectual commitment. I think comes really from political activism, the strengths of political activism and also involvement in the creativity of civil society. So when I came, I was appointed Minister for Culture Arts and Tours in my country, and I came with a background of commitment as a fighter social and intellectuals fighter. More and more, I realize that being in politics means to try and translate a concrete in a concrete act are social and political commitment to make that put that into practice. I'd like to come back to come back to this notion of intellectual and social commitment, social involvement and commitment, at least as far as I'm concerned, comes from the heart of childhood. When you're a girl, very young age, you learn to take care of others to look after the family to look after your brothers and sisters. I was the oldest in my family, so I was very young when I learned that I had the responsibility of looking after the younger ones, very often in a big family. The mother, the aunt, girl cousins and even grandmothers, they all teach you to help one another to cook, to look after the house, to make the house a nicer place to live in. And when I think about this time of my childhood, I think that the principles were inculcated into me then. Very often I think about the responsibility I was given then. Early in the morning, before going to school, I was the one who had to prepare food for my grandmother. I don't remember having missed doing that a single time. And you see, that gives you a sense of responsibility. It teaches you very young to look after the community. And then when you grow to be an adult, in my own particular case. But I think it's the general case in Mali because we have a community education which is based on tradition and our cultural values. So, for myself, my life as a woman, when I became a mother and the head of, well the mistress of a household, I learned, I saw what I had learned from generations in my country. Which was that well-being in the country, the responsibility for that really rests on the shoulders of the woman in the house. So, on the woman. You have to look after children, not just your own, but others as well. Cousins for coming to their house, nieces and nephews, sisters in law, mothers in law. You have responsibilities on all sides and it is the woman in the household who has to handle all that. She has to see that it all works well. And I think she is never forgiven if she falls down in those responsibilities to look after the family and others. Very often, we're the first to get up in the morning and the last to go to bed because it's up to us to look after everybody else. Women in Mali, there too I think as the woman in the household, I think I can say this. You have a thousand tasks that you must take on. And sometimes you are absolutely exhausted, so let me tell you this. Sometimes I think that women in Mali are heads of state. When you look at everything they can organize and keep running and they take leadership naturally. Which I think is a fruit of their education, which as I say is passed down from one generation to another. But it's also a product of the way that the family unit is organized, where everything yet again is the woman's responsibility. But women do that very discreetly. There's a saying in our country, which says that from in the farm yard, the hen knows that the sun has risen, but she lets the cock sing. So the cock crows. So that's to say about the discretion with which women take on all these responsibilities. So to conclude, I would say that that prepares us to assume leadership, whether political or social. We are naturally disposed in a good position to take on leadership. And the condition of women situation of women in Mali is the fruit of education and of a voyage which I would say is the journey of women in Mali. Thank you. Thank you minister and also for I suppose really dealing with one of the main obstacles for political participation by women, child minding. Just to remind everyone that in relation to the interpretation. When the speaker, when speaker, the minister is speaking if you press French to hear the interpreter. And now we're going to move on to our next guest speaker. The director of one France to talk about her experiences in political life. Hi, from Paris. I'm so delighted to be part of this wonderful and powerful panel. Thank you very much for your invitation. Well, to try to answer your question. I was absolutely not predisposed to enter in politics to give you a little bit of background. I was born in Morocco, I arrived in France, only when I was four years old. I did not speak French. So my childhood was not filled with politics. And especially since my parents didn't vote that didn't mean I didn't have any commitments but I have been fighting poverty and inequalities in NGOs from a very young age. And I certainly was not imagining myself as a politician when I was a kid. So I truly started to take interest in politics after high school when I studied law and then joined the science pool, which is a high school, which made it possible for me to do internships in this area, for instance in the French National Assembly. And this made me better understand how legislative action works and how as a politician you could change things for the better. And what made me finally go into politics was the 2002 presidential election in France, when the extemporary candidate arrived in the final round of the election. And that was a pure shock for me. And for many people who absolutely did not expect that to be possible. This event made me realize that I had to do something for my country and for the values I believed in, because I had a voice and willingness to make friends a better place. Having a family coming from abroad was a true opportunity for me because it made me see the world differently. It gave me the ability to adapt myself to different situations and to understand very diverse points of view. It wasn't as obvious when it comes to being a girl. As a teenager, being a girl meant that I had a bit less opportunities than my male relatives for going out, for example, so that made me quite mad. Most importantly, I witnessed that for my mom, for instance, being a girl meant that she had less autonomy and had had way less opportunities to study and live the life she wanted. So that certainly made me a feminist very early and a huge believer in gender equality. Being a woman in politics hasn't always been a hassle, but it certainly makes you feel because that's true as an outsider. You obviously have to fight against stereotypes, not just gender stereotypes, but in reality all kinds of stereotypes. And I've learned with time that the best way to answer them and to answer the criticism was humor and turning them into the region. I also think it's important to understand that during the debate, for instance, if you are being interrupted by a man, it's not because you were not from in-outh or authoritarian in-outh. It's only because for years and years we have been taught that some voices matter more than others. That's what we call patriarchy. So instead of questioning ourselves, we should look up to people like Kamala Harris, for instance, who did it very well during the presidential debate in the US by asking to finish what she had to say. And we women have as much to say as men. We should believe in our expertise and our knowledge, but that's not something that is easy to do. There should be a lot of training and education around that at all ages, but also at school. And political norms, you have to remember that they have been built for men. So it's taking a long time to change mentalities. And it also requires a lot of adaptive ability for women to fit into this political system. I think that is really the few lessons that I have learned of this experience. There and I'm going to return to that theme now with all of our guest speakers starting with Francis because I want to get your assessment of gender equality in society and particularly education. Education has been highlighted by the United Nations as the fourth sustainable development goal, gender equality, the fifth. So what progress has been made in relation to these and what obstacles remain, Francis? Well, I think it's very clear that in Ireland, huge progress has been made. If you think that there's a marriage bar only back, you know, until 1972, and there weren't as many women going to third level and getting further training and so on. And when I'm in the European Parliament and I see the progress that has been made in Ireland, despite outstanding issues, which I will address. You see some of the attempt to row back on women's rights in some of our members of the of the union. It's quite disturbing. You see people and politicians from certain member states who do not want to use the word gender equality now. You see people going back on on rights. You see LGBTQI rights being, you know, people saying we can't have this we want, you know, LGBTQI zones and so on, really disturbing human rights issues, continuing within Europe. But I would say that from an education point of view tremendous progress has been made and in breaking down stereotypes, I suppose. I mean, very early on when I was in my political career, we were looking at textbooks that had very stereotyped and school books, really stereotyped stories about young boys, young girls. I think we're changing all of that. We're opening up the world far more to young girls and of course young men. And I think that's really good. We see much higher numbers in universities in many courses we see, you know, more than 50% of females doing whether it's law or medicine so on. The issue is more as people progress in their careers and come up against the very issue that both of our other speakers on the panel have spoken about and that is combining work and family life, having the childcare supports the caring demands, the unequal division of care in our society, and the lack of value on it really. But from an opportunities point of view, there's still a class element of course there's still a socio economic bar because of costs and that is something we have to continue to work on. And there is another area where you're seeing inequality. And interestingly enough, Martina, it's in the AI digital technology area. And connectivity is going to be so important for opportunities as we progress opportunities to get good health care to get more education, smart agriculture and so on. And that is an area where, for some reason, right across Europe, there is a digital gap, there's gender digital gap. And that's something we really have to work harder on and that is about women taking, you know, the subjects of science and maths and so on. And young girls seeing that that is a potential career because that's where the money is going to be. We can help deal with the gender pay gap and the pension pay gap. So I think in other parts of the world, we have serious issues like during COVID we've seen an increase, for example, in female genital mutilation. We've seen an increase in early marriages. Now if you have early marriages around the world, less chance of education. There's still danger of both young men and young boys and girls dropping out of education with the consequences of COVID because education has been curtailed in in many areas. So I think, you know, there are ongoing issues and I am reading about the, the need to make up for the last time during COVID as well with our young people. Many people are saying that we may not catch up on some of the educational experience that has been lost around the world, that it's a real challenge. So I think education is clearly the key for so much progress for opening doors. It's a good news story in many parts of the world. There are, there are still issues and particularly then, as people progress in their careers, you end up having that gender pay gap. You end up maybe not having women at senior levels. You end up with women being more likely to be doing the care responsibilities, and more likely to suffer setbacks in careers. So those are, that's kind of a broad answer to that question, Martina. In fairness, it was a broad question because there's so much you could talk about in relation to that issue. By the way, on the tech issue that you raised, there's some positive news today. Irish female founders have raised more than 100 million for the first time, but just 16% of female founders here are female. So there are barriers across the board and you mentioned that in your speech. I now am going to move to the Minister, to Minister Konari, and I know you wanted to raise some other points, but Minister also in relation to dealing with a gender equality in society and in education in particular, which will be important to you. Thank you very much. Before replying to this question, I'd like to come back to the idea of commitment, which will be a kind of an introduction for me to in discussing the second question. I spoke about intellectual commitment. It's the basis of my everyday work. Very young. I had the opportunity to find to discover the world of books. It was an opening onto the world for me, a way of going beyond borders, and perhaps through books to get to capture ideas of peace and tolerance and that kind of culture. So when I was studying, which I did completely different studies that were scientific. At that point I decided to become a publisher because I remembered how important books had been to me. They were, they accompanied me in my young years, and when I went to France to study. For my, my companion, I read hugely, and it really helped me to understand about the world and about the environment around me in France. So when it came to choosing a career, I was automatically drawn to publishing. I was trained and I became a publisher. So have I was my environment was that of a political activist. I was, I had so politics was a was a deep part of me. And it seemed to me that a book was a perfect tool for doing politics and for promoting the emancipation in particular women on different levels but first of all, I wanted to facilitate for girls to to have access to books. And then I wanted women to be able to express their thoughts. Not necessarily by writing. And also who wanted to have a look at our non tangible heritage, which is supported mostly by women. And actually, and then through documentary books to document the commitment of women's struggles and particularly in politics. So in the introduction my introduction when I was introducing myself. In fact, five years ago, I published a book, you mentioned, which was a collaboration. And in this book. The thing was that five years ago we were at a turning point historically in Mali. In March 1991. There was a big event which launched the democratic revolution in Mali and ended up with the democratic opening. And at that time, that was when politic politics became different and women became really important for democratization at this time. Because this event included suffering and violence, and women were the first ones to be confronted with this violence. The young people went down into the streets confronted by soldiers and bullets. It was the women who opposed this. First of all, it was women who put themselves in between the young people and the bullets. They were cannon fodder. And in this book I wanted to pay homage to them to pay tribute to them and to remember how much women had contributed to this march towards democracy in our country. So if women women hadn't played this role 30 years ago with Mali today would not be as democratic democratic as it is women pay to their blood. They gave of themselves. And so they were they were struck by bullets and children to I interviewed women who had lost some of them had lost all their children in bringing democracy to this country, which had happened because women were part of paid up their role in that combat. Women power came to when in the political power women were not given positions in decision making bodies at the start. And even today, their questions which we have to discuss because in 2014, there are figures in Mali. We only had nine women in out of 700 mayors mayors, there are only seven women. And yet in Mali adopt in 2015 adopted a law law 052, which stipulates a quota of 30% for elected positions and appointed positions. So despite all the commitment and by the sacrifices. And as I said this natural inclination to to to be political and to have a place in political culture. Women had a very were very poorly represented. And I'd also like to mention culture because for me. The struggle for education is also struggle for culture for three or four decades now national national level we've had a unit for schooling for girls. This looks at the conditions at school and tries to promote education for girls at school but in these 30 years. This NGO in its last one of its most recent reports it underlines the fact that Mali is one of the 10 countries where the level of education of girls at school is I think is is is lowest in the world. So there's a, okay, so there's a battle for figures to go from up from 30% to go higher. So the problem is access to education quite simply how do we get girls into schools, how do we get them to learn numeracy and literate so that they can be economically independent. Access to direct education can only happen informally. We need, and it needs to use the mother tongue. We have 13 languages, which are actually used. So these are the languages we can with which we can read, and we can teach girls to read and to write and to learn to be autonomous and independent. But even among girls who do go to school. We still have to put more stress on a very big problem which is falling out of school. It's one thing to get girls into school, but it's another thing to keep them there so that they, they go on and get a diploma, which will that will give them guarantee them a job. And that is a big achievement. So the problem is also a problem of battles. I like this word battle because it really expresses the struggle in these areas in which women have not yet won the battle. So culturally speaking, when we look at our historical legacy. We see the critical role that women have played, whether it was back in the times of our big empires, or during the revolution for democracy, women were at the forefront. We have to reintegrate them, give them back into this this role which they're so capable of playing. So in our, our heritage of skills and competence, if, if women are not there to pass on this all this knowledge. These, this knowledge is going to disappear, or in our in immaterial heritage will disappear and when that happens. It disappears a whole people will disappear at the same time so it is so important in the battle for equality that women take their role as guardians of time of traditions, and that that they should be given back their position in history that it should be recognized. So for the consolidation and the majesty of our of our state and of our people and minister clearly thank you this is a very passionate you feel very passionately about this issue given the role of women towards the towards democracy in your own country, and also in terms of those stark statistics that you have given us in relation to education participation and girls. So this is clearly a very issue that you feel very strongly about and also gives us all something to think about in terms of the role of women past and also the potential of those young girls in the education system. Najat, you work for an organization and education I'm sure is very key in tackling poverty and extreme poverty, and you also have obviously a record as distinguished record as being Francis first, you know woman to hold the Ministry of Education effectively. Yeah. What is very frustrating about politics is that sometimes good measures, obvious measures clearly approved by the population are sacrificed for political maneuvers. That's often the case with gender related measures. As a Minister of Women's Rights and Education, I have been the target of many fake news surrounding a mechanism I wanted to introduce in schools, which would have included some education and gender equality and stereotypes for young kids. A huge backlash followed the introduction of this measure, even though it wasn't radical or extremist in any way. So, well, that's the first thing. Also, a difficulty in assessing gender equality in our own countries and in others is the blatant lack of gender data. This is a serious issue because the lack of data also implies that gender discriminations are always underestimated. It also makes it more difficult to draft efficient public policies and to target the right audience. No data unfortunately often is a way to make the issue disappear because if we cannot quantify the issue then it means that the issue doesn't exist. And third, I would say that another major issue is now COVID-19, we have to talk about it. Recently it has been estimated that we had lost 25 years of gender equality progress in only one year of pandemic. This is absolutely catastrophic. And for now, this is not addressed by governments through gender specific measures. You know, after the first lockdown in France, I have published a book with a French philosopher, a book called Society of Vulnerable People, Feminist Lessons of a Crisis. In this book, we assess the impact of COVID-19 on gender equality in France and in the world. Women have lost a lot, a lot in many areas during the pandemic. That's true in France, but the crisis has also exacerbated vulnerabilities in countries with significant fragilities in terms of food security economy. There, women have also been the first casualty of cultural and individual violence, child marriage, unwanted pregnancies, school dropouts, genital mutilation. All these phenomenas are rising and Kadiya Toukoin probably tell us more about that. But more generally, the crisis has wiped out decades of progress in gender equality by reaffirming women as heads of households handling most of domestic and educated course while also sacrificing their jobs when family needed to come first. The crisis has made domestic violence cases rise uncontrollably. Again, policy responses to those issues were crafted without the contribution of women, overtaken by the valued expertise of men in power. Women's reality was once more subordinated to the priorities selected by the political discourses, which are men's discourses. So in the book, we explained, for instance, that care workers, cashiers, health workers, maids, have showed during this crisis how essential they were to avoid a complete breakdown of our societies. Yet, those care workers are very poorly appreciated and recognized in France and I think it's the same in other countries. And these jobs are mainly occupied by women. The COVID-19 crisis has brought to light the paradoxical nature of our current social hierarchies in which the most useful citizens are also given the least recognition. And the crisis has impacted the vulnerable ones first and has highlighted inequalities. And it has also shown that all that, sorry, that at the roots of our social organizations disparities at the roots is this idea that a woman is always a little less legitimate, a little less competent, a little less important than a man. That's why I say that in many ways this crisis has made women, the big majority of care workers, more vulnerable. So for me, that's a real topic that we have to face. I don't want to be too negative, so I will try to end on a positive note. We have, we also have to highlight positive changes. For instance, in France, the extension of the mandatory paternal leave in France, which is interesting because as Kadyatou said it, now we have to fight on the cultural level to fight on the cultural level to end patriarchy means to make men as committed as women in the domestic life, in the parental life. So I think the progress have to be found in this area especially. There are some important issues there in, you've raised some important issues there in in relation to COVID-19 and its impact on women. And I'm going to ask the other panelists to very briefly, if they can, because we do want to get to some of our questions from our audience, and we're concluding at half past. Cheryl, if you were to look at what you want to come out of COVID and your vision for the future very briefly, and what would you say, what would you identify as those key issues? Thanks, Martina. I agree with what Nasha has to say. I mean, COVID is the issue at the moment in terms of gender equality and the recovery from it. And what I want to see is the huge funds that have never before been available that the amount from Europe going to each member state, I want to make sure that the recovery is inclusive of these issues around gender. So that for example, we are taking account of the precarious position of women's employment, women have lost more jobs in order for women to get back into the economy and to, you know, have opportunities. So the recovery is going to have to take that into account. It's going to have to have, you know, you can't just think, for example, of construction. Construction is extremely important. But you can create millions of jobs around Europe by building a care economy. So that is something we really have to deal with the childcare issue, the care of the elderly, we've seen what's happened in long term care. So we have to be conscious that there is a differential impact from COVID and every recovery plan and every government policy going forward for the next number of years has to be aware of that has to deal with it in its policies and its program for governments in its actions. And also, of course, have to be very, and we haven't mentioned it to any degree so far, there has been a 30% increase across Europe of domestic violence. I can't believe we're still talking about domestic violence, but we are, sadly, so you need really strong support to the organizations working with women. We need to address this issue in our laws. Well, we've done quite a lot in Ireland. I'm going to talk about myself and bringing in the concept of coercive control and the definition of consent. These issues are very important. So, across Europe, we have to make sure that we look at the care issues that have arisen. We look at the access to health care, cancer screening, you know, whether it's breast cancer screening, access to sexual reproductive rights, this has all been interrupted as we have moved forward. And in my report, which was agreed by the European Parliament just two weeks ago, I look at the impact of COVID-19 in about seven different areas, the economy, domestic violence, health care, and so on, and make recommendations. And Asha made a point as well. And I'm sure Cadia to you to would agree as well that you need gender disaggregated data. If you don't do research that's inclusive of women, for example, in medicine, we're not going to give women the right treatment, and that has been a problem over the years and continues to be an issue. So gender disaggregated data in all areas is completely critical moving forward, and government can lead on this and really point to the areas where we need to be addressing the inequalities. And of course, Martina I'd finished by saying, you know, everyday sexism is something we have to watch as well, whether it's in the media, or in the day to day experiences we all have, and particularly young women. There are impacts of pornography and expectations of, you know, having to look a certain way. This can be very debilitating and actually stop women and young girls from even contributing in classrooms. So that's a broader issue we have to continue to address. And that's an issue that you have spoken about previously and expanded on the pressures and also the fact that it discourages women from entering politics and other professions in public life. And Francis Minister, in relation to a post COVID environment briefly if you could see that your visions for the future and what needs to be addressed because we really do want to get to our audience questions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I think it's very important and very difficult to talk about the future today. I think about the future after this kind of COVID-19 pandemic. My priorities and my vision would be centered really on the different sectors that depend on this department, culture, crafts and tourism in my department. For both crafts and tourism. There's the world was one way before COVID and different afterwards so for some months we have known that when the borders were closed. Mali still continue to have tourists despite the security situation. And it needs international tourists. We need a flow of visitors. Our tourism industry depends on it. And when tourists used to arrive, what do they, what do they like best? What sector do they go to most it will and that was crafts. They went to see the creativity of Mali's artists. So no artists, no development of crafts. So we have had to have a discussion about giving ourselves the resources to develop local tourism, national tourism to allow tourism to survive. This is necessary because, as I said, there is the world before and the world after COVID. So the tools available to the tourist sector to promote local, local tourism is really important. So where I'm concerned in my department, we depend on local resources in terms of women, because it, it is women who do most of the crafts, whether it's pottery or basket weaving or weaving as we spoke about. Are dying. These are very much women's trades. So we need to enable women to have economic benefits from this. So we need development of local tourism and women as resources. I have always said that women are the ones who are able to welcome people into the home and to look after the home. So when we think about hospitality, this is the art of welcoming people. I say to myself that this art of welcome needs to be transposed from the family unit to the national unit to citizens. Women as women household could be the guardians of the city, so to speak, as they have this art of hospitality, which is absolutely essential in developing the tourist industry. When we think about culture, there are huge challenges, but we do have a vision. So when we came to this ministry, we very quickly began to organize consultations involving the different branches of the cultural sector. So what does that mean? So we would sit around a table, everybody from cinema, the technicians, the actors, the operators, camera operators, everybody to talk about the future of their, their sector. And we listen to everybody and we did that for all of the different arts, music, dance, visual arts and everything. And out of this came a number of recommendations, the product of these consultations and we are going to put these recommendations into practice. But I like to stress the fact that those, we are in a very particular period in Mali. We have a transitional government. It is the government with a mission. It is a government that is going towards elections and that is preparing for the time after the election. So we have a responsibility. And allow me to allow me to say this to clean up the house. We want things to be clean so that those who come afterwards will be able to take advantage of the work that we have done. And to clear things up and to clean things up. Thank you, Minister. I'm just going to come in now because I know Najat has a half 12 and whether you may have a few more minutes with Francis. Najat, can I ask you, because some questions have come in from the audience, and I was just wondering one is commending France and Mexico in relation to transforming the agricultural systems, but also asking how can women have a greater influence in agriculture and food systems because that's also important in tackling a poverty and extreme poverty. So I'm going to ask it's very specific question, but I think it's an important one. Hi, Rose. That's absolutely essential. And we absolutely share the idea that the first problem in the developing countries, especially is the fact that so many women are working on agriculture but do not master their work, do not own the fields and so on and so on. And so that is absolutely right. And we are going to put this topic on the gender equality forum that is going to be organized in France in a few months. But if you love me, let me maybe try to answer another question that I have seen on the Q&A from Claire Laude, who is asking us, while in Ireland the number of women studying engineering and science has increased, the number of men studying nursing or social work is not increasing in the same way. What would you suggest could be done to redress that imbalance as I believe that full equality won't happen as long as some jobs are deemed feminine. She is so right. She's so right. And to come back to your question, you know, I hope the post COVID world will recognize our vulnerabilities and the value of care, which should not be women's concern, but a concern for society as a whole. The lack of consideration for jobs, which are mostly occupied by women today, the jobs in the care area, this lack of consideration is frightening. And for me, it is linked to the fact that in our general unconscious, the functions occupied by these cashiers, housekeepers, other caretakers are merely the extension of the domestic field. A field which is discredited and is supposed to rest on women's shoulders in a kind of natural altruism or generosity. And we see it wrongly as a natural extension of the domestic field. That's why these jobs don't have any right recognition of the hardness of these jobs. That's why they are paid very badly and are known to decrease life expectancy and so on and so on. So to answer the question of Claire, I will say that you're right, we must promote all these professions to make them attractive, including for men, attractive financially speaking, but also attractive culturally speaking. And for that, television has a huge role to play in my mind. I don't know if it is the same in other countries, but when I look at my country, look at the cooking shows at TV, which have a lot of success and increasingly bring men into the kitchen. So I think we should have the same kind of promotion and, you know, making the jobs more attractive, including other dimension of the domestic area dealing with children, you know, housekeeping and so on and so on. Same kind of TV shows that should make all these functions more attractive. And I think that's something that we should really deal with. Yeah, that would be my conclusion. And I'm glad that you jumped in there as part of that question. It was my next one. But Francis, you will also be very familiar with that issue as someone who started off in social work, but I actually have a specific question that's been coming for you. And I'd ask if all of our speakers are very brief because we literally have about three minutes left. But Francis, not even three minutes to ask this question, but Ian Hughes is asked what is the difference in having one, two, three or four women in cabinet in terms of policy. That's a fair question. Yes, it is a very fair question and hard to summarize, but I would say it's obviously about hearing the voices of women and men. It's about critical mass. When you have critical mass you get a more, you get a fairer distribution of discussion. I know, and I've finished on this when President Obama had his cabinet and the women found that they weren't being listened to and they decided they'd go for what they called amplification, which means that if one woman said something another woman would support her, as opposed to one woman saying something another man saying the same and then whoever was leading the discussion saying oh that's a great idea John and forgetting that the woman had said which I had that experience again and again in all sorts of settings. So I think it's about voice, my own experience as well is that women behave less hierarchically in cabinet, which kind of surprised me actually, I found that women were more. And it's hard to generalize because obviously there are always, you know, differences and exceptions between men and women and not for a moment suggesting man might do this but I often found that women were willing to call the elephant in the room. They were willing to sort of say but what about, you know, the fact that people are saying X or Y or that we're really concerned about this aspect of some legislation you're bringing in, or some current issue. So I found a sort of a straightforwardness actually in women and less inclined to kind of go with a hierarchical you don't say anything which surprised me in men but politics is very hierarchical and you're often dependent on leaders from positions. That explains it but look at the main point I think is that you absolutely need the best thinking of women and men working together for our country. And as you move from, you know, one to five women in cabinet, you're getting different experiences reflected as well. And, you know, very often I found women were very practical about issues as well in cabinet because, you know, we bring as our contributors saying you just bring that experience of combining work and family life and you know housework and caring and so you bring it all together and you bring it to your politics as well. And thanks Martina. Not all the Josh was smiling throughout that so I know that she agrees in terms of political participation and having more women. Very briefly minister. And what about you do you believe it makes a difference having more women around the cabinet table you are serving in senior office at the moment. So minister, do you believe it is important to have more women in senior roles in politics. Of course, obviously, and I sincerely believe so what was I was saying in my remarks that here in Mali women in Mali and in other African countries as well. Women are naturally made to take responsibility. And when they, when they find themselves on the public in the public arena, it is essential that they take responsibilities once we get there. We have all these issues about for example climate change issues about education empowerment of other women, women come to politics, come into politics and give the best of themselves and I think yes we really have to lobby for women to have access to share political responsibilities. Thank you minister, and also, thank you to all of our guest speakers today Francis Fitzgerald, Cadet to Connery. Thank you very much for joining us from Mali, and also Nejat below Bacassan who had to go just at just there. I'd also like to thank the IEA and the French Embassy in particular the French Ambassador to Ireland, Vonson, Giron, and the cultural counselor of the French Embassy in Dublin, Marie-Anne Dlo and all the IEA team, Loda, Hannah, Lorcan, and also the interpreter Veronica who's done a huge amount of work this morning. I think it was an important conversation. It was a frank conversation. It was only getting going. And it is hard to believe that this is the first International Women's Day event held by the IEA, and I'm sure given what's happened this morning, there will be many more. Happy St. Patrick, I was going to say happy St. Patrick's Day. Thanks Martina, thanks to everyone. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.