 I've been doing it my whole life, and so have you. Bensioners and newborn babies are engaged in it, and yet we seem to deny it, fight it, and try to hide it. Have you guessed it yet? Yeah, I'm talking about ageing. There is always something that young people can do and you can't, and that can make you appear as less, less valuable for society. I see a lot of people my age who start doing a PhD. Geriatric pregnancy, just the word itself sounds like your baby is going to come out of the womb with a long gray mustache. From my perspective, I think we have to see that in our current society we still have the privilege to decide against children, and this privilege hasn't always been there. Please teach me how to age gracefully, now in 13 easy steps. I would rather teach you to age disgracefully. I mean, I think that's much more fun. Okay. Hello and welcome to Standard Time. It's not exactly a late night show, because it's digital, so you get to watch it on your own time, your respective Standard Time. Today we talk a universal truth that Western society prefers to sweep under a rug. Aging. I'm Reka Kingapop, your aging editor-in-chief of Eurazine, the magazine presenting this show. Eurazine is also a co-founder of the Display Europe platform, where you will find content from all corners of Europe across 15 languages and from many more angles. Display Europe covers politics, culture, community and more, and it's where you'll find this very talk show, Standard Time, produced by one of the co-founders, Eurazine. This program is co-funded by the Creative Europe Program of the European Union and the European Culture Foundation. Aging is universal. It's merely another expression of time. We all age at all times, that's just how time works. One might delay some conventional signs of it, but often at incredible cost. And the social pressure that denies our right to experience time through our lives can become very oppressive, especially if you're a woman or happen to present as one. Society weighs us by our youthfulness and offers it as a key to beauty, success and happiness. Youth is heavily commodified. We're supposed to splash sunscreen even on our screens. Tiktokers teach women to avoid facial expressions to de-age themselves. And cosmetic interventions, like Botox and Facelifts, are promoted to audiences from their early 20s. Aging in Western cultures is associated with a loss of value, power and desirability in women, whereas in men it is more often seen as maturing. It's almost as if women were held to impossible standards. And on top of all this, the goalposts are shifting. Due to modern medicine and often better living conditions, Europeans live longer than ever and our life stages are all over the place. What used to be considered mature adulthood today counts as early life. According to Scientific American, young adults are taking longer to embrace traditional adult responsibilities and honestly, in a world that seems hell-bent on burning itself down, who can even blame them? But it's not just adolescence. Adults can also get out of whack. You ever meet one of them dudes who claim they just became middle-aged at 57? Or the folks who insist they aren't passed for it because they don't feel it? And the plethora of cretins who insist you guess their age? Whenever somebody asks me to guess their age, all I say is, way too much. You deal with your own anxieties, little sibling, don't drag me into it. But buckle up because we're now diving headlong into the existential crisis of a lifetime and we've got a lot to unpack. Heck, if we aged a year for every societal norm we're challenging, we'd be probably exactly my age. And we have some exciting guests to talk ageing with. Marlene Bayance is an accomplished author who has garnered attention for her recent book that delves into the nuances of ageing and its societal impact. Fiona Ruprecht is a psychologist researching in the field of gerontology from the University of Vienna. She is known for her contributions to understanding the science of ageing. Jofia Loren is a historian of ideas who has been promoting new perspectives on age norms. As we dive into our conversation, we find ourselves at the historic Alte Schmiede in Vienna. This cultural venue used to be a blacksmith workshop located in the historic centre of the Kaiserstadt. The Alte Schmiede Kunstverein of today promotes literature, hosts intellectual gatherings and artistic events. And as you will see, this building aged really well. Fiona, you have written about how old is always someone else. It seems a moving gopose for a while and then it just starts to fall on us. I think it's around mid-20s basically where this changes. So for example before that, so before 25, younger adults, children as well, they tend to idealize an older age. They wish for autonomy, for freedom, for everything like that. And then in the mid-20s, this actually starts to change and people wish to be younger again. They wish for inner sense maybe, for youth, for not being responsible so much. So there is this change. But in general I would say that being old is seen in such negative ways that we avoid this identity of being old for a long time. So we see for example older adults pushing this border of when someone would be considered old higher and higher. So for example, I myself would probably or a person my age would probably consider someone aged 60-old. But a 60-year-old person would consider someone aged 80-old and so on because this identity seems to be so threatening to being considered old or considering oneself old. Why are women not allowed to age? Because there are many factors in this society that we're in that are very against ageing and this idea of being young forever. So the problem with ageing is I think a cultural one, a political one, and especially in neoliberal times everything is focused on economically being productive, about money, quality of life is measured in these terms and I think that's a very wrong perspective. The problem I think or the reason I would think people are delaying identifying with an age of life is because there is this association which wasn't there or wasn't quite the same even for my grandmother's generation, there's of course a class difference there and a cultural difference there. But also because with ageing we're supposed to gain authority, right, or that's what I would associate primarily with ageing. Is that just that we're not allowed to have that authority? We are aspiring to an older age because we want the authority. But then we are facing the way age is devalued in society in many ways and that there is also this very easy shift from first not having the authority and then this authority is being taken away from us by the label of old because if you're old then you don't understand things anymore, right? You don't know how to use a smartphone or the internet. This is obviously again changing rapidly because the generation over 60 nowadays of course knows how to use these gadgets but there is always something that young people can do and you can't and that can make you appear as less valuable for society. Yeah, but I think that this is also probably something that may have not always been there. Like why am I as a self-identified middle-aged woman always supposed to know what teens and 20-year-olds think is hip. It's just one part of it that I honestly don't really care all that much. What would be an ideal age that you would like to try your hand at right now? 50? 50. Fiona? I'm quite satisfied with where I am. Yeah. Madeleine? I'm pretty happy with being 65 meaning I'm fine. These are very satisfied women. This is not a real sample I think. We actually have data on this and people usually idealize a much younger age like particularly like exactly the question you just asked people would usually state much younger ages than they are at. So around 20s, 30s, maybe 40s but those are already the very old ones. To be a woman in any of our ages and to be able to say that you are happy with your age that's a privilege because that means that we have the financial, emotional and cultural independence from patriarchy and capitalism that most people don't. A lot of people think that they have like the authority or the means or the power to have like control about whatever you do and how your career develops or how your life develops and then realizing you don't have the control but it depends so much on the context that you're born in, the context that you're educated in and there's always constraints around you. There are so many things to be to take into account. The older you get there is more responsibilities and also the responsibility for yourself. I think that's why a lot of people and younger people especially are in this big identity crisis and I think I saw that too. We really didn't make that big an issue of it. We were just going through the times and trying to get a job and trying to have fun and stuff like that but it was not as much about like identity like I am this and that and I want people to take that into account. There are so many rules and I hate it. And now a word from today's sponsor. We'd like to extend a heartfelt thank you to the renowned Alte Schmiede, a vibrant cultural hub located in the heart of Vienna, Austria, who hosts our talk show and I'm personally very thankful to Walter Femmler. Now let's explore some of the exciting events taking place at the Alte Schmiede in November and December 2023. You can find program here from the Festival Wien Moderne and the Festival Literatur M. Hepst which means literature in the autumn and there is a jazz evening by the Flipside Collective on the 19th of December and so much more so for a complete list and events and further details visit the Alte Schmiede's website at Alte Schmiede or visit the Alte Schmiede itself which is much more preferable. I think it's also harder to age when this prospect of becoming the elder who has a place in life and society and in the community it's not really there so it's not really offering you anything. I would say that old age is historically quite young so other faces of life are already quite shaped so the expectations you would have for what to do in young adulthood and middle adulthood are relatively set in comparison to old age but there aren't many expectations when it comes to old age itself and how to spend it and I think what is a bit problematic is to see the development that old age is often depicted for example in the media in overly positive ways so we see a lot of best ages there that are very healthy, very integrated, very engaged and some people just cannot keep up with that idealized version of old age and I think it would be important to have a more realistic portrayal, a more nuanced portrayal of what it means to grow old. There is Aubrey de Grey, a fantastic who talks about like long age we're all going to be like 140 years old. Thinking exercise there is interesting because if we would really become 120 years old only that means our lives would look different then you're not going to study between your 18 and your 25 or your 30 and then work and then stop when you're 60 I mean no you still have like 60, 70 years to go so life would be faced in a complete different way I think and it's interesting to think about it like in more in that kind of terms it's not like from that age you're old no I see a lot of people my age who start doing a PhD not exactly calling it like that sometimes because now you have the experience you have time to reflect on it. There are no good models for women to age that it either this idealized but still desexualized figure or the old witch or women who pretend that they are not aging through this mostly medical interventions and a lot of makeup. And we are very angry with them but we also expect them to do that and I think it's also important to forgive them but at the same time they create a very misleading image. So women's aging has a very strong component of reproductive and sexual angle right that's why we are not forgiven. We are interesting primarily in a prime reproductive age now the even the medical recommendations are being adjusted to the actual reality but at the time when I was struggling with with the whole obstetric regime giving the first birth or a first pregnancy above 35 and it still is the case in many countries was considered a geriatric pregnancy. And that is one marker that is very arbitrary and it shows in the statistics how arbitrary it is but it is also a completely unnecessary judgment of course on a woman or someone with a woman's anatomy going into these spaces and always hearing about how she and her just existing for a bit longer time in and of itself is a problem. So how do we approach age and aging in this very toxic discourse and I think this is this really is very strong right now there's so much talk about women not having the appropriate number of children at the right age Fiona how would you come in here from sort of maybe a more individual point of view. We have to see that that in our current society we still have the privilege to decide against children and this privilege hasn't always been there it's still heavily stigmatized if you decide against children as women but I still think that that times have been changing in this regard so we can make a choice. So maybe this whole discourse is about women having an option and that's why that is this then the pure black backlash to that. I think that one needs a lot of support and internal strength to come over this pressure. I see that with friends and colleagues who chose not to have children that it's extremely difficult to talk about this especially actually when you are over your fertile years because people will either judge you as selfish or will show their pity and and I don't know how to overcome this I think talking about it helps I think the fact that more and more people write about it helps and otherwise I have no idea. I feel like as we as we age this is always some kind of an accounting process of what have we achieved from the checklist is this your experience too? I've never felt that pressure and I'm very happy that there is more and more voices coming up like to be able to decide to have no children not to use your fertility tools but for a lot of girls that are not as privileged as us we're not even able to talk about it like 30 years ago the Catholic influence in many countries in Western Europe was still very very strong and all these people were like pushing families or women to have to have children to have more children and in the meantime there was all this pedophilic stuff going on in the back rooms so I mean it's very complex it's very complex. I think like particularly for women it is expected to get children in order not to be lonely and alone in old age so having children is also seen as some sort of preparation for old age like what does old age mean for a woman who doesn't have kids and I don't think that there is a strong societal vision of what this means and I think we need to create one basically. We know that historically societies have needed older women without children to take over a lot of the care work and domestic unpaid domestic work for men and women with children. This is something that we didn't invent in the past 30 40 years being single or not having children or either combination of these or not being settled for a lifetime but then of course the the question of beauty and desirability comes in which is we leave it kind of last although that's what we are bombarded with at all times. I think I saw my first targeted Botox ads around 26 27 which was a very big surprise for me but right now it's even more prevalent than it was back then. We all struggle one way or the other with the ageism and sexism and lookism of western capitalist patriarchal societies and I always have this concern that I don't want to preach or I don't want women around me to feel even worse about how they feel by telling them oh you shouldn't mind or this like meta shame about feeling shame. Yes and I think it's such a dangerous it's such a danger to fall into this trap and what we can do coming from or being in this privileged position right now when we have less need to worry and we can be a little bit freer is to to show by example and the concerns that it's not that we are way above this but and that sometimes it hits you hard. I had a geriatric pregnancy where actually I have to say that it was for me quite a challenge to balance between the ageism that's inbuilt and the actual medical issues that can come up and which are realistic and then you know you kind of become a scholar of this although you never trained to do that. But let's be honest geriatric pregnancy just the word itself sounds like your baby is going to come out of the womb with a long gray mustache or I don't think it's an appropriate term. I will get old by the end. But you know this is record this is the other thing that medical language would really need some human touch up. Fiona you study the experience of age or felt age. So most people feel way younger than they actually are and I think this also has to do again with with historical change in a way so of course people who are nowadays old have their own grandparents and parents in their mind and they are aging better. Better is a very complicated word here but they are aging healthier usually in more socially integrated ways so they don't really see themselves at the same age as their parents or grandparents were but feel younger. So I think that is the main age with felt age but we also see that so we see that there is some benefit in feeling younger so individuals who feel younger actually age in more positive ways also subjectively more positive ways but we see an end of the benefit if people feel extremely young or idealize a very young age. So this is problematic from a mental health perspective because you idealize something you cannot keep up anymore. Marlene you have actual advice to offer although not necessarily in the in the click baity ways people are used to on aging gracefully which is a very loaded term in and of itself. Please teach me how to age gracefully now in 13 easy steps. I would rather teach you to age disgracefully. I mean I think that's much more fun. It would be much more fun and much more speaking out for how you feel. No I just wanted to come back very quickly to what Fiona was saying about this idea that women have children so that you're being taken care of at an older age and stuff like that but that's really that was an illusion because what we see now is like a lot of children put their parents away in some care homes and senior homes and stuff like that so well that's the joy and the privilege of having children you know. Sometimes you you meet people and then they say you look good even for your age well at that moment we should act you should respond to it and not be glad or happy. You just have to to react against that no you look your age and there is nothing wrong with that. What are the actors are the people you like in in your own context it's people who have like an authentic face and and an authenticity but if you see people with lots of makeup and all the botox and the fillers and the whole thing I mean that is like really talking to a carbon board person or something that is not really actually alive or there and it's like a mask and that's fine I mean if people want to wear a mask that's fine but I prefer to meet people without masks. And now some more words about who's bringing this program to you it is the European Commission and alongside with them the European Cultural Foundation based in Amsterdam the European Cultural Foundation has been bridging cultures and supporting arts and research since 1954. They are also the creators of the transformative Erasmus student exchange program enabling millions of Europeans to explore new horizons. This year they're launching Display Europe a content sharing platform that offers articles audio and video programs in 15 languages while safeguarding your user data. Sofia you say we should be forgiving with the people who choose the mask option right forgiving I mean it's their face so there's not much to forgive but you know at the same time it can really be disturbing as because often looking at a mask is disturbing right often masks are made to be disturbing. People in these very streets in Vienna not long ago protested against masks different types of masks but even those. What I find disturbing is that I see more and more young like significantly young women in their 20s with lip fillers running around and with the amount of makeup that I don't even wear here on camera. When you see somebody going about mundane daily tasks in a full face of half a centimeter thick makeup that's not a signal of them having fun I don't think that's a signal of probably like fear about being themselves or showing their face or fearing or fearing not being good enough or acceptable enough and that's what worries me. I think that women are getting this message on every corner that you are never enough as you are you need makeup you need the hair you need the expensive whatever accessory in order to be good enough and and this is part of the deal but there is very little that you can do about it in these everyday encounters. I was also just thinking of of older age again where there is this thing you have to appear youthful you're expected to appear youthful but not too youthful like if you dress in like the newest ways this is also considered very negative for older women again so no you can't really get it right probably like at least appearance wise. Yeah like my targeted advertisements are recently about exactly like at this age certain lengths of skirts and whatever. Also you get get the ads about longer skirts than you used to? I don't know I don't think that the internet knows what my skirts are like but the message that I see coming when you know whatever website has access to some of my data is that oh I'm 40 plus so I should slowly like disappear. Yeah under a rock under whatever. So you hide under a rock that's the plan I think for middle-aged women according to my understanding of middle-aged is that we hide under a rock and then just hand out dinner from underneath and take the dishes back. What kind of targeted ads do you get Fiona? Male ones I guess I don't get a lot of female advertisements. You may have better internet settings it may maybe it's this generation of difference that you know how to set your brows. I had a horrible time with advertisements for some weeks where I got a lot of chain saws I don't really remember what I googled to target that but yeah but that's over now. Marlene what kind of oppressive regimes do you face in terms of like beauty expectations? I was confronted with it when my own daughters were younger and then suddenly they were like shocked like you don't shave your legs uh no so maybe you should do that and and and your armpits well sometimes I do but mostly not and they they did these things when they were in their teens and then a couple years later they came back to me and then they said like you are so right in showing us that we didn't have to do that. It took them a couple of years just to realize that you don't have to go along and and the funny thing is that I seven years ago I published this book on age and trying to do away with all the cliches and all that thing and then last season there was a magazine Recto Verso which is like the Belgian Neurosine but very much smaller of course on aging and again there it took really a long time before we could get all the cliches from the table and then yeah how how do you start talking about this like with what we've been doing now for an hour it's like really trying to point out little things but if we want to have to make a synthesis or to wrap it up we haven't come that far yet in our conversation here and it's very valuable that we're doing it but it's it's very complex. When you explained that that your daughters observed that you wouldn't wouldn't shave and then came back later I had the same experience I used to think my mother was just insane for not complying with these and then at this point and I've talked with her about this for her it was not a political statement it was a very basic fact you know she just straight up told me I don't have that kind of time in my life and right now I don't have yeah I don't have that kind of time either just being a woman takes up so much time it's a there's a second shift and a third shift and almost a fourth shift because we're also supposed to deal not just with beauty on like a moment to moment basis but we also should have some kind of an arc to react to this right or to live in this there are a lot of ideas about what the shifts in women's lives but but one that came up and I think it's very much coming from 70s 80s feminism is this that the expectation of looks is almost another shift so you do a shift in your workplace then do it one domestically and then there's a third one to maintain appearances this is I think also a bit complicated more complicated than that because having time for one's health when it comes to aging you need time for your health in terms of exercise um time to prepare meals that are good for you of course for both of these you need money so there is also this S plan that that this is um heavily depend heavily depends on your socio-economic situation um and where is the boundary between fighting age or taking care of yourself and that's what everybody should have and everybody would deserve to have Fiona where is that boundary between fighting age and just maintaining yourself as a person there is a complexity in it because we are still our young selves like they stay with us so I think there you have to have this room for your younger self in it but also be accepting of of the changes and maybe even embracing of the changes that are coming because the changes that are coming aren't all negative there are a lot of positive changes as we grow older okay I look forward to those I agree with what Fiona says I mean your younger self or yourself stays with you and aging yeah we're all aging so what's the problem what what has suddenly become a problem with aging I mean it's something we all had in common it's part of life so what what why making such a fuss about it ladies thank you for the conversation but we all have to go because we have a lot of aging to do good night