 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and a friendly welcome from the Detroit Free Press and radio station WJR to another in our opinion program. But before we get into the in our opinion program this afternoon, here are the latest dispatches from Vichy on the African situation. According to Vichy, American troops are holding Safi south of Casablanca in French Morocco and a large beachhead at Medea north of the port of Rabat. Vichy says a large number of transports appear to be landing troops at both places and the Vichy Bureau of Information claims two British and two American ships have been sunk in an attack on the harbor of Oran. The Vichy dispatches are not confirmed by other sources. American forces evidently are making progress in their campaign to occupy French colonies in North Africa and to open a second front against the Axis. That's the one clear fact that emerges from a welter of reports and rumors from many sources on the electrifying move by our forces. Washington has not yet issued detailed news on development since the first announcement that American forces were landing in French North Africa. Dispatches from Vichy make it clear this morning that American forces have landed on both sides of several key points on both the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts of French possessions in North Africa. Our landing forces presumably are driving forward in an effort to capture these key positions. Late word from Vichy this morning is that Algiers itself is under attack. Landings also have been made at Safi on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. Vichy says Safi has been captured by the Americans. The Vichy radio says a key at the port of Algiers is burning fiercely, presumably from a fire started by shells from an American destroyer. And American troops landed from a destroyer are said to have captured the Admiralty at Algiers but were themselves taken prisoner in a French counterattack. And Algiers dispatch adds that five American planes scored several bomb hits on the Admiralty but anti-aircraft guns brought down one plane. And two British and two American ships are reported to have been sunk in the harbor of Oran. Those are a few of the many and varied reports of the situation. And now for in our opinion. If you drive an automobile you'll be vitally interested in this afternoon's roundtable discussion because we're going to talk about gasoline rationing. There's a strong feeling here in Detroit and in the Detroit metropolitan area that gasoline rationing is unworkable here. That our transportation system can't absorb the load, that the war effort will be bogged down unless workers can get to and from their jobs in their automobiles. There are a lot of other arguments against gasoline rationing most of which you will hear in just a few moments. And there are a lot of answers to these arguments which you will also hear right from headquarters. The man with the answers is John R. Richard. A young man with a very big job down in Washington. The job of supervising gasoline rationing throughout the entire United States. Mr. Richard is particularly familiar with the Detroit situation. Having been head of the division of student personnel at Wayne University here for five years before going down to the nation's capital. The man with the questions is Raymond Berry, Detroit attorney and head of the Detroit board of commerce. Mr. Berry is accustomed to asking searching questions and he plans to do a lot of searching this afternoon. Also on the bombardment committee this afternoon is Royce Howes, military commentator of the Detroit free press. And George Cushing, news editor of WJR is again the moderator. This is Bud Guest telling George Cushing to take it from here. Good afternoon everyone. I'm not going to waste any time on preliminaries today. I do think before we get into the general discussion that Mr. Richard should state briefly just what his job is in Washington with respect to the gasoline rationing situation. Mr. Richard. Mr. Cushing, I am chief of the gasoline rationing branch of OPA, which is part of the mileage rationing program. As you know, we have been ordered by the war production board and by the rubber director, Mr. Jeffries, to ration gasoline for the purpose of saving rubber. We have a four point program in fact. We have a program of tire replacement, a program of tire inspection, a program of speed control, and finally the only way to control mileage, which is through gasoline rationing. And now Mr. Barry is president of the Detroit Board of Commerce. Will you give your views briefly on this rationing program? Mr. Cushing, I would like to outline the position of the Detroit Board of Commerce. I would like to make a few remarks specifically for Mr. Richard. The Detroit Board of Commerce operates through a group of committees. It is non-political. The fact I do not know the politics of any man on our board of directors. I assure you, Mr. Richards and Washington, that any activity gauged in or indulged in by the Detroit Board of Commerce is not with the purpose in mind of embarrassing anyone. We have a job to do. We are going to do it as best we can. We are concerned in this matter because we are 100 percent behind the administration's effort to win this war. United States is a democracy. No better example could be given. The enslaved peoples of the world, what democracy means than the right to favor or disagree on principles of government, whether expressed through voting or a discussion such as this this afternoon, neither of which is possible in the Axis Nations. True democracy presupposes that we will be honest. A purpose and sincere in our efforts. The American people are intelligent, honest and sincere, and can be trusted. They can and will willingly accept the hardships, occasioned by war. Give us a chance to accept some of these hardships voluntarily, in preference to a directive from Washington. Voluntary acceptance will go much farther in building a morale than will compulsory acceptance, and the voluntary acceptance of hardships will columnate, will assist in columnating the war much faster and remove many hardships that will be placed upon us unnecessarily. Give us a chance. The old adage, you can drive a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, would seem to be in point here. The Board of Commerce urges, in connection with this problem of gas rising, several things. First, we ask that you defer the effective date for 90 days to permit consideration of some alternate plans. Those alternate plans may be such as creating districts. Eliminate, possibly eliminate Sunday driving after 12 o'clock at noon. Eliminate driving after 7 o'clock in the evening. Perhaps reduce the speed limit to 30 days. The automobile means more to the average American family than most all other essential commodities. I predict that if a poll were taken, it would disclose that the people would accept rationing of meat, sugar, coffee, clothing, and other commodities more readily than his automobile, and will accept a reasonable restraint upon the use of his automobile. The automobile in this state is first and essential, and secondly, a luxury. Mr. Berry, I think you have hit something there when you referred to the rationing of other commodities in contrast with the rationing of the motor car. This country can operate without coffee. We could even operate without sugar. The British are operating without a great many things that we still consider absolutely necessary. But the automobile is woven into the very fabric of this country. It's a fundamental of the transportation system. Now, its elimination is not taking away a luxury. It's taking away a means of conducting the country's business. And just now the business is war. You can place certain limitations on its use. But frankly, I don't see how anything as drastic as the gas rationing plan that's projected can work now. Mr. Richards, before this program opened, I said that I thought that the gas rationing procedure here would last a week or two weeks, and then would have to be thrown overboard because of its failure, the fact that it would paralyze war industries and one thing another. And you said that it was working in other places. Let me ask you whether it's working in any place similar to Detroit and geographical layout and in general transportation facilities. You can say the camel works in Kiber Pass, but that has nothing to do with Detroit. Now, it may work in Buffalo, it may work in Manhattan, it may work in Brooklyn, it may work in Boston. But will it work in Los Angeles? Will it work in Detroit? Will it work in any city that's had its major growth since the automobile came in and therefore has no great transportation system? Mr. House, I think it's probably more important to, in Detroit, that we conserve our transportation mileage than in many other cities of which we know it's true that gasoline rationing is working in Buffalo. It's also true that the Buffalo Chamber of Commerce made exactly the same points about its situation in Buffalo as you and Mr. Barry are making this morning. However, I think you will find that the program of transportation rationing which we have installed in the Buffalo area actually is working and that the aircraft plants have not been hampered particularly. Before we go on any further, I think it's necessary that we recognize that transportation, as we know it, is gone. That if we drive as usual, one out of every three of our tires will be worn out by March and two out of three by the end of the year. Our program is to save these tires to recap them so that they will not be ruined and to keep 27 million cars rolling in this country. It's probably more important that transportation rationing work here than in New York, Boston, and places with rapid transit facilities. Well, that's a sound enough theory, but can you tell me this? How does the square mile area of Buffalo and its suburbs compare with the square mile area of Detroit and its suburbs and what is the relative capacity of the two public transportation systems serving those areas? Do you have any figures on that or are you just guessing that it'll work here? I didn't bring figures with me. Let's see. The Buffalo area would be smaller in everything that you mentioned probably, except transportation. I think you will find that public transportation here in Detroit is more adequate than that in the Buffalo area. Well, it's true in this area that 20 mile drive each way to work is nothing for a worker. 30 miles is not to be regarded as a tall and common. Royce, there are about 350,000 that drive their cars to and from work in Detroit and they live in about 14,000 blocks spread over 320 square miles. Take this case, Mr. Richard. A man lives out in Redford and works at continental motor work or Hudson. Drives clear across town five, six days a week. Is he going to be able to get enough gas to do that? Yes, sir. The local board will look at the facts and if a war worker needs 100 miles a day driving alone in his car, he will be given that mileage by his board. Well, now just for why do you make that statement? Is that going to be a written direction to these rationing boards to give them a so-called congressional X card to give them unlimited gas? Is there any rule now that lays that principle down? Mr. Barry, I think I could say that the boards have no rules from Washington which would bind them in such a case. The rationing power has been placed in the hands of your committees of neighbors right here in Detroit. People who know how crowded your buses are and how your street cars run, they are free to give whatever mileage is needed by a war worker to get to and from his work. Well, now would you explain one more thing to me? I'm very much confused about the whole thing. I understand that we are using gasoline to ration rubber, that there is no shortage of gasoline. Second, there's a confusion in my mind as to what constitutes a war worker. Now to me, 95 percent of the people in this area are engaged directly or indirectly in war work. I'll take the man that is delivering the boy that's delivering newspapers to my house. I'll take the radio man. I'll take the man that's running a small meat market or a grocery store or any other business man. And I'll say he is directly or indirectly engaged in war work, although he may not be making shells. Now what is the definition of a war worker? Now your opinion I think is quite right. The war worker is only one of the 15 groups of people who are eligible for preferred or unlimited mileage as needed. We recognize that the essential workers in the civilian economy are just as important, probably as the war worker as such. Well then does that mean that he will get an unlimited car the same as a man that is working behind a lathe? It is the intention of the program to provide all essential occupational mileage for people to get to and from their work and to drive in the course of their work. It's true that some of the less essential civilian pursuits are held in by a ceiling and by certain tests of car sharing and alternative transportation. That being true Mr. Riches, then it is my contention that gasoline rusting in this district in this area is not necessary. When you speak of necessary Mr. Berry, I wonder if we couldn't look at the nature of the commodity we're rationing. We're rationing rubber which is quite different from steel, zinc and high octane gasoline of which there are also shortages. You as a man familiar with industry know that we have a huge capacity in steel and zinc and high octane gasoline that we can maintain a huge and powerful army with these commodities in spite of the fact that there are shortages once in a while. However we do not have enough rubber supply to maintain even a third-rate army. Our army is dependent more upon rubber than upon any other commodity and has already cut itself very deeply in rubber use. That means that for every pound of rubber we can save in this civilian program our tanks and our airplanes and our battleships will be better. Well it will be true that they'll be better if we can build the tanks and the planes and the airships and whatnot to put the rubber in. But it seems to me you're approaching a program that in a good many centers is just going to stop the percentage on those things. We might as well use the rubber to make slingshots if we're not going to make weapons that are a little more mechanized than that. You're supposing this thing actually becomes effective here which it probably will. It'll be the usual amount of confusion. The usual attitude of the local board that its primary mission is not to keep the show running but to deprive you of something that's usually the outlook of the rationing board that we're giving away something that belongs to us personally and we don't want to do that rather than taking the broad view that we're supposed to spread this stuff so that the economic machine will work. Well now I contend that it'll break down very shortly and it'll break down in a way that will mean loss of manpower hours. Here you're taking extra tires away from a little following now. A fellow who drives a jalopy and has seven or eight old worn out carcasses anyone of which may blow at any minute. He takes his share of the ride people to the factory with him this morning on his five tires and he blows one out. So he puts that in the shop and the man says well due to a shortage of labor and one thing and another having to do with a war I can't get it vulcanized for a week from next Thursday. So he puts his spare on and Wednesday afternoon that goes bang and then there are three tires and there are no share of the rides and there's a car bogged down by the side of the road for two weeks and what does that lead to in production terms of those share of the ride folks when they get to the factory or don't get to it. I think you've really struck the point there and that is that that man's transportation has been endangered not by gasoline rationing but by Japanese jungle fighters who have taken the supply of rubber. Now to date I'd like to throw in there that it's also been endangered by some people who failed to provide for that supply of rubber about the time the Jap jungle fighters started work. Yes that's true but we can't make up past mistakes by making another. Actually we have replaced only one eighth of the rubber worn off since Pearl Harbor and tires are in pretty bad shape. In fact they're in such bad shape that we are about to ruin millions of tire carcasses by over wear. Now if you will help us we will guarantee an OPA to replace all rubber worn off cars on essential driving. We will issue different tires for every worker whose tires reach the recapping point. That is just the constructive part of our program you see unless you permit us to take those tires recap them and keep them rolling on a controlled program why our tire carcasses will be ruined and one third of our cars will be off of the road by April. Our intention in this program is to put back two million cars on the road which are already off. Well no what is essential driving this has been touched on before but we're going to have a man take his car and go out to one of our plants and he's going to spend the day making a tank and he's coming home and he's going to want pork chops but unfortunately the butcher had used up his a-card gasoline the first two days of the week so there aren't any pork chops now is the man who sells the pork chops to the world to the war worker any less vital than the worker himself isn't at all a team that has to be kept operating you've got to have girls by encounters in restaurants you've got to have boys running elevators if you're ordinance people down here in the union guardian building have to walk up 40 floors it's going to slow things up but if the elevator boys for some reason can't get there because you take their gas lean away now that's exaggerated but it it's the indication of how it it dovetails the whole thing is mashed right in together you can't take one without all i don't believe that's exaggerated in the least i i say that every business in this community is essential and i make that without exception of the straight legitimate business i like to ask mr richard this question if we are to conserve rubber and this is another point of confusion in my mind and i imagine confusing others if we are resting gasoline for the purpose of saving rubber then why are we resting gasoline to power boats all over the country when a survey shows that the power boats consume less than three tenths of one percent of the national production of petroleum last year now if we are conserving rubber why not let the man that has a power boat use all the gasoline he wants there are several small directions there in the first place we are not cutting commercial power boating in any way merely pleasure boating and we are doing it only the tires on the pleasure boat well we are doing it only in the 30 states which the office of petroleum coordinator says have oil transportation problems there he of course is the expert if he declares that there's a shortage in 30 states we obviously cannot permit unlimited supplies of gasoline for motor boating however gasoline is not rationed to motor boats in the 18 states where there is no transportation shortage well with their ration to the great lakes area and we do not have a shortage now here's one more confusing question someone in washington i don't know what department has reduced the speculation in prospecting for crude oil from one well on 20 acres of land to one well per 40 acres of land now that is cutting the prospecting in hand thereby reducing the quantity possible to obtain for making fuel oil and gasoline well we're way out of my backyard mr barry i that this whole thing is the office of petroleum coordinator of which we have no direction well mr richards let's get back to how this measure is going to put those two million cars on the road that are not on the road now that would be interesting the record i think that there's a point that is often missed and that is that the primary purpose of the new transportation plan is to release tires automatically to people on the basis of their occupational mileage now if you have laid up a car because you can't get tires and have customarily used it in your business or in your occupation you automatically get recaps as soon as your tires reach that point and if your tires cannot be recapped you get new tires and tires are given entirely on the basis of the number of miles that must be driven well here but a few minutes ago you were going to put a restriction on the number of miles that can be driven uh we can't we just say to the man who needs recaps away you're in a category that isn't entitled to drive so you don't get recaps i'm not arguing about the man going out the golf club i'm arguing about the man who sells insurance or hardware or a lot of other things that incidentally war workers need oh he'll get tires that's our purpose well then everybody gets tires it is not exactly tires for all it's it's tires for those people who have occupational mileage over a certain point we will issue tires to them regardless of their occupation but the price a person must pay for that is this rigid control over the use of those tires mr. riches let me suggest this to you as a as a matter of consideration in this matter uh you're perhaps too young to recall the last war but we had a very serious epidemic known as the flu as a result of improper health conditions rising out of perhaps lack of transportation that is possible again if we are going to crowd all the war workers are all the people of detroit in our street our present streetcars which are inadequate and our buses which are inadequate we have a health problem the automobile does afford some recreation and relief for the war worker or for the office worker now if we are going to deprive these people of all recreation uh submit them to the rigorous rigorous weather that we have in the north my point is that we will seriously retired the war effort and that is the most important now what differences that make whether you use rubber on tires or whether you use rubber otherwise so long as it contributes directly to the war effort are you suggesting that the recreational automobile driving uh contributes directly to the war effort i am i am i'm making this statement that even a war worker a man behind the lathe is entitled and should have some recreation and he shouldn't have to spend anywhere from two to four hours a day in public conveyances getting to and from his work it destroys his efficiency he can get recreation out of his automobile whether he's driving to and from work and i'll go a step farther i'll say that i think that a man isn't titled to some recreation how is he going to get to the movie are we going to close those up i would say that a moving picture any theater is indirectly engaged in war work because it contributes to the welfare and the morale of the people of this community i think we have two points there the one is overcrowded transportation and i would say that your local boards are not forced by any regulation we're imposing on detroit to put more people on your buses and street cars your boards can declare that they are inadequate for further load and can then issue gasoline to people because they have no alternative means to their well not just how would these boards here you have some 25 or 30 i believe how would they impose uh or issue a decree that would force the city of detroit to supply the suburban area with transportation i don't see how that would work you see we're rationing gasoline even in towns without a single bus or street car our purpose is to keep 27 million cars rolling you see ours is a transportation conservation plan we want them to be used mr berry there's one point that hasn't been discussed here today and that's the share of the ride program is your office mr richard to recognize that as an imperative necessity yes and one of the cheering things in my visit around the country was to meet with 1200 war transportation planners from detroit plants uh this week these men are prepared with plans to form car clubs swap ride systems in detroit plants and i would say that detroit is probably better prepared than any city i have visited to set up these car clubs do partly to your fine leadership in owt there's a uh a matter of figures that i'd like to call to your attention you uh people are estimating that through the share ride plan which is a splendid plan and all that but i'm really pointing out a basis on what you're likely to go awry you're saying that uh rather than have five people drive five cars five days a week we'll have each of those cars operate one day a week well actually it's going to work out to each of those cars operating two days a week in most cases because the added mileage in this taxi system runs that up i just throw that in as as a statistic to consider when you're estimating what you're saving and what you're spending because you're not cutting from the mileage the cars that are entirely the amount represented by the cars lying in the garages your i know a number of instances where mileage is about doubled on a given car to accommodate Mr. Richards you do you believe that there's a possibility that detroit may be given a deferment of 90 days or any period mr. Henderson and mr. Jeffers have within the last few days pointed out that we have constructed a plan that we are ready we have a trained staff in detroit and that our tanks the tanks which will save the rubber tires in this community are ready to roll i'm convinced that detroit is ready and i think there will be no deferment sir now i disagree with you on the trite being ready i don't i don't see any effort that indicates that the trite is ready ladies and gentlemen i'm sorry to have to break this up we could go on like this all afternoon i'm sure but you've been listening to the in our opinion program a public service feature of the detroit free press and radio station wjr join us again next sunday afternoon at 12 30 for another roundtable discussion of a timely subject this is bud guest speaking and this is wjr the good will station detroit