 And we're back, yet still the breakfast and plus TV Africa to a first major conversation this morning, I guess I already understand by let's quickly give you a background to this discussion. Now on December 6th as you may recollect the central bank of Nigeria directed the deposit money banks and other financial institutions to ensure that weekly over the counter cash withdrawals by individuals and corporate entities do not exceed 100,000 Naira and 500,000 Naira respective among other considerations. Now the policy which is expected to take effect nationwide from January 9th, 2023 has elicited varied reactions amongst Nigerians, the latest of which is human rights advocate Femi Falano. The lawyer has faltered as a new cash withdrawal policy introduced by the Apex Bank, reacting to the policy of Falano in a statement on Monday set the Apex Bank's new cash withdrawal limit was quote illegal and null. He also said it contravenes the provisions of Section 2 of the Money Laundering Act, 2022. The human rights advocate also said that Section 2 of the Act limits cash withdrawals by individuals and corporate entities to 5,000,000 Naira and 10,000,000 Naira respectively while arguing that since the Act has not been amended the new CBN policy is therefore quote null and void. That's quite interesting, exposed by the legal luminary. Joining us to analyze this we have Mekha Oparahiz, a lawyer and also Mukhtar Muhammad at Evolve Mental Economy, both joining us via Zoom and Lagos. Gentlemen, good morning and thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Good morning. All right, let's just start from the basics. Do you agree with Chief Femi Falano's position that this is against the law, looking at the laws that he has cited? I'll start with you and Mekha Oparah. Oh, thank you very much. With two respects to the land I just said, I have a lot of respect for him. I agree with Chief Femi. If you look at Section 2 of the Money Laundering Act, it does not place those limits as a right. The Act, that per class section, Section 1, two sub-Session 1 of the Money Laundering Act simply places a maximum limit that could be withdrawn. It does not say that those particular limits are a right if you look at the wording of the section. But we cannot reach Section 2 of the Money Laundering Act in isolation of the CBN Act of 2007 that gives the Central Bank of Nigeria the power to regulate all these things. The Monetary Policies, under Section 12, we have the Monetary Policy Committee, chaired by the CBN governor. We have other sections, we have Section 20 that permits the CBN to issue and make changes to the legal tender, for example, the coloration and all that, and some of the powers given. These powers given are definitely to be interpreted within the current context, the modern context. And if you look at the Monetary Policy or OMO, some of the current things that are being done now by central banks, this is one of them. And these are powers that are specifically given to the central bank of Nigeria. And that is, it does not mean that you cannot take payment, you may not take it in a particular form, so as to curtail inflation, so as to make sure that cash monies that are outside the former sector stack somewhere in people's backyards in some other places, on two places, they are brought into the system. These are powers given specifically to the central bank of Nigeria. And when they do this, they do not deny a person the right to use or have money but they have the power to say that you take your money in cash up to a particular limit and then you take other monies in some other form other than, for example, electronic, other than cash. That is what I would say. I do not think we should read Section 2 of the Monetary Law Act in isolation of the powers given to the CBN under the CBN Act. Okay, Mukta, you've listened to your lawyer account about what's your take. But before you come in, just to read Section 2 of the Monetary Law Act 2022 as amended, it says that this is titled is on about to prohibition of money laundering. It says, Subsection 1, no person or body corporate shall accept in the transaction through a financial institution, make or accept cash payment of a sum exceeding 5 million Naira or it's equivalent in the case of an individual or 10B, 10 million Naira equivalent in the case of a body corporate. That's that. And some other things there as well. So what are your thoughts on what Falanoa said vis-a-vis what a makeup artist saying this morning? Thank you so much. Thank you so much. You know, I'm not a lawyer. So I will bring it to my own name and looking at the act and what I think we're having issues there. Number one, it's a multi-policy decision, which is very right. I support the cashless policy and for the cashless policy. But again, if you look at what Falanoa is saying, because the CBN is not saying you cannot withdraw more than 5 million, but like he said, you can do it at a particular form, at a particular, they tell you how to go about it. In every economy in the world, there is that, that is embedded in their law, not just because we have an act that is just there. Now there's certainly, you need to look at it that what Falanoa is saying is that the CBN is imposing a fine. So what they are saying, what the fine, they are not the one, they are not the one to impose fine. The fine, if you want to impose a fine, you must be backed by law. I think that's where it's coming from. So you can be the judge in your own matter. So if you want that to become an offence that we take to court and we be able to justify it, then you have to enact a law to bind it. I think that's where he's coming from. He's saying, you know, you can't tell me that if, because the money normally adds is 5 million or 10 million, now you are saying, if I withdraw both this amount, I'm going to pay a fine. Remember that even the, the app also, I mean, the, if you go to the morning or day, I'd say that these financial institutions are to report any transaction for individuals above 1 million and above 5 million. You need to report it to the, to the security agencies. So definitely, I think the challenge there has to do with implementation. Why, I mean, define, especially define, that's what he's talking about. You don't have a right to fine a people if you don't have a law backing it. Because there's no way in the act of the CBN or in the monetary London, and that says that if I withdraw a both setting, setting amount of money, I should be fine. Remember that why I'm even skeptical about the whole thing is, remember that this is, this law is not new. It is just that they have not reduced the limits. So why have nobody challenged it up to now? That because it's going to affect a lot of people. Because remember that even before now, if you, if, if you are going to deposit as an individual, you cannot deposit more than 3 million. If you deposit in terms of 3 million, you are fine. So why have nobody challenged it? But when it came to cash withdrawal, it's becoming an issue. There's a lot of, like they said, the lawyers, I mean, Mr. Michael Pyramid correct me if I'm wrong. They say until a law is challenging court, or until a decision or a policy is challenging court before you know whether that policy is wrong or right. So maybe I'll lead that to the lawyers to go and begin to challenge themselves in court and then taking the CBN to court. We could have a decision on that. But on the cashless policy is the way to go like Mr. Michael Pyramid said is the way to go is the way it's going globally. Nigeria cannot be an exception to the law, especially when we pride ourselves. Or we are not just pride ourselves, we are the largest economy in Africa. So for me, that is the more reason why I'm in support of the cashless policy. But in the law terms, they could be for lawyers to argue. Well, so let's even take it from that angle of argument with legal practitioners. And I'm asking O'Paira this point if he agrees with his colleagues. Because a lot of them have said that the cash withdrawal limits by the CBN is a further impoverishment of the impoverished people. And this is to say that it's against the human rights. The human rights of the people, they have a right to dignity of life. Now, let's also not forget that there's also reporting statistics that 1.4 million POS operators may lose their jobs. So O'Paira, I'd like to ask you, do you agree with your colleagues who say that this is actually a further impoverishment of the impoverished people? And there's a need to actually seek a legal redress? I do not agree. I definitely do not agree with that proposition. This has nothing to do with human rights. Rather, I will say, the law has some policies. There is the educated policy of the law. And there are situations where the law is on a pedestal above the general public. And policies are made to bring the general public up to the level of the policy of the law, the reason of the law. It may be not very palatable at the beginning, but usually it will work better. And that is where this cashless policy is going. It has nothing to do with human rights. And concerning the POS operators, I think in the long run it will pay them more because it will not be very easy for Nigeria to adjust to this new cashless policy. And it will rather create jobs because what the POS operators should do now is to incorporate limited liability companies. And thereby they would be able to withdraw $1,000,000 in a week. And if you incorporate two, you withdraw $1 million, $500,000 from each of the two companies. So I mean, there is always a way to get around it along the line. Along the line, people will get to understand that it will pay us more. But I see this particular policy as one singular policy that could impact, that could have the greatest positive impact on our democracy. I know most of the people that are against these are politicians and dichronies. If this policy is allowed to work until, even if we remove the fine aspect of it, I think my colleague there, Mr. Mohamed, has raised an important point. We could agree that the fine aspect of it may not rise to the agreed legal standard. But if the policy, the cashless policy, this policy is allowed to work, so vote by will be reduced by at least 70 or 80 percent. And the demand of our democracy has been vote by. I know most of the people that have been against this policy are politicians who have stacked money. And we know of situations in the past when a voter will have to go home, when he votes, he will lift up what he voted. He will have to lift it up for the agent of a particular party to know. And when he steps out from the polling booth, he gets to pay the particular sum. And you need to have a lot of cash to be able to do this. If the CBN should properly enforce this particular limit, the issue of money in bullion vans and all that, I think we will not be able to have it in 2023 and to help our democracy a lot. For that alone, I think we should we should make the limit to hope. We should allow it to work. All right. Mr. Farah Mukhtar raised a point, very interesting point. Talking about the legality of all of this, he said that there's no low backing or empowering the central bank to impose fines. And for you to impose any fine of any sort to say to anybody in this country, pay this amount of money, you must be backed by law. Which, what do you say to that? Well, I think I would have to, I may be veering towards agreeing with him on that particular one. But then there is, if a particular law has aspect of it that is legal, an aspect of it that may not rise up to the legal threshold. The courts will know what to do. They will be able to strike down the unlawful, or if I may use the word, the aspect of it that does not rise to the legal threshold. And uphold the aspect of it that does. So I think this is what you have done. We should not throw away this particular policy that should help us, help our economy, help our democracy. We should not throw it away. The CBN could make some changes and say, look, after examining this act well, and it's the powers under the CBN act, if it finds that it does not have the power to actually impose fines, it could withdraw the fines, but make sure that it's... Sorry, sir, do you foresee... Yeah, do you foresee... Yeah, Mr. Okwari, do you foresee this case, this move by the CBN, standing the test of the court? I mean, you're saying, yes, you think that issue would be allowed to stand. But do you foresee it's standing the test? Because of course, the Honourable Justice, whoever is going to be sitting on this case, whoever has caught this will be head, will not attach sentiments to his judgment, you know, his ruling. So do you foresee, based on your experience as a lawyer, and based on the issues put on the table by Fermi Falano essay, and do you foresee this passing the legal test in the court? I very well do. The only great area of it is the fine. Like I said, the court will know what to do. The court will not throw away the baby with the bath water. Robert, let's get back to Muktek. Muktek, I'd like to ask you what the implication of this is for the Nigerian economy. I mean, as we inch closer to 2023, what are we expected to see? What exactly does this mean? Will we see less spending? Will we see people spending more? What does this limit, you know, what will this limit do to the economy? Why number one, you need to know that we are in the political seasons where the politicians, as the CBN is planning, they are also planning. So you remember that the CBN have come up with a lot of policies that are almost all of them taking place, taking step in January. Remember, we've not forgotten the reprinting of the new Naira notes. So they must have gotten this anand. They are saying, okay, cash withdrawal limit and all that. So the CBN also, as the politicians are planning, the CBN is also planning. So that's why you are seeing the uproar in the National Assembly over the withdrawal. But what will it do to our economy? Definitely, like Mr. Perez said in the first Indigenous introduction, you need to look at what are the tools that you use to reduce inflation. And one of those two is mopping up liquidities in your system. And what it does do for the system is you begin to see the number of liquidity amounts in circulation will reduce. And you know, we are not only going into an election here, we're also going to a festivity period, which is from December to January. And you know, that's the peak of spending in an electoral campaign, especially in the month of January. So definitely that could help. The CBN is trying to look at that as a means to reduce inflation. Remember also, the MPC rate also just to make sure that we don't get, we gain, because it gained a little in terms of hiding the rate for a while. So they are also looking at sustaining that momentum. And that is why they are also coming up with this cashless policy. Now cashless policy will impact the economy positively because again, number one, we are not even looking at the area of security. We also need to look at the area of security. Like Mr. Perez said, I'm not even looking at the political area. The area of security whereby most bandits ask for cash. And so definitely it might also be a key to reduce the insecurity that we have in the country because when you are telling me to go and bring 10 million, I know that I cannot get 10 million cash to bring to you. I will need to transfer it to an account. So definitely again, that would be a big challenge for those that are, for those the victim of the kidnappers. And then for the security agents to be able to get to this. So it's security wise also that is another advantage. And when we're talking about the PUS, I need to get declared that if you go to the bank now, the convict pipe that have been used to commit fraudulent activities have been for the PUS terminers. Because what we see in the PUS terminal these days is people committing fraud to defunding people through the banking, paying money into the account. And then in turn withdrawing it immediately to the PUS terminal. That is another thing that will happen again. That we draw limits. Also we reduce that. Remember that Mr. Perez was saying that maybe they pay the central ability company. Remember it's a system. They are not the owner of the PUS. The CBN is the one that have put something that you cannot withdraw like your ATM. Like when they say you can only withdraw 20,000. So when you withdraw 20,000, you cannot say, oh I want to go to another PUS to withdraw another 20,000. You know all these systems are together. So definitely on the PUS matter, the CBN may have to do what they say they will do in terms of if you are going to withdraw above that limit. That's another thing we are not saying. The CBN is also saying that you can also be permitted to withdraw above that limit. But there are certain conditions that you will meet. So maybe they will have to do that for the PUS terminal because they are the ones that have bought the PUS terminal. And the PUS terminal have been able to achieve something in financial inclusion, especially in the rural area. If you are in Lagos, when you go to the markets in Lagos, you want to use your ATM because the madam or the businesswoman is telling you that please sir, there's a PUS terminal beside it because they are thinking of how to reduce costs in their business. And because the cost that you do in the PUS terminal is going to be charged towards you. So business people look at ways to reduce costs. And PUS terminal has come to be one of those. We remember the CBN came with the E-Nirah, but that also have not had the kind of patronage that they think they have. My greatest challenge to the CBN policy still remains cyber security. If you want to go cashless, then you need to do something about your cyber security. Because when you go cashless, I mean 90 percent of your transaction is cashless. So we need to build a robust cyber security. And the banks alone will not have that financial resources to build that. So that's why I'm saying the CBN should be able to help them in putting up policy that will build a robust financial security, as far as cyber security. For me, that would be the greatest challenge. But the policy in itself is going to governize the economy. Just like you see a policy like making other people to lose job. That policy also creates jobs also. Remember, we're going to the film tech era, and we have a lot of film tech companies. And if you look at large developed economies of the world, what drives the economy is the service sector. What drives the service sector is the film tech. So definitely, we are going into an era even in Lagos now. Some POS, you don't need to put your card, you just use your fingerprint, or you use your face, your facial recognition, and you get your money. So definitely, some banks have already gone cashless. So definitely that is film tech. And so they keep on improving on this technology. So for me, it's going to help our economy, but we need to build a very robust cyber security platform or network. Thank you very much. Very interesting indeed. The question will remain, we should take the lead. Because the fellow now is saying, if the federal government doesn't withdraw that order at the central bank, he will head to Kohi Usu. And then of course, the association of mobile money and bank agents of Nigeria. These are POS operators association saying that they will engage the services of Falano's chambers, to join him to go to court. So the question is, we should take the lead. Patriotism to say, well, we know that businesses are at stake, but let's put national interest first, or law, which is this is our right. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. Emek Akbar is a lawyer and Muhtar Mohammed developmental economist. We're joining us from Lagos. We appreciate your time and hope to have you again soon. Thank you. Thank you. All right, we'll have more conversations ahead. Definitely. We'll take a break. And when we return, we'll be diving straight to the second conversation. Please stay with us.