 Here we go. We are being recorded. Big brother is watching us. Yes. Well, hello, Mr. Rechner. Just a split second, I will make a backup audio recording for you. Yes. Hello. Good to be with you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for this opportunity to be one of the first guests on my new show. I'm doing a podcast. The name of the podcast is Kanda podcast. Congratulations and success. Thank you. I hope that we are both color coordinated. We are both wearing black, which is I hope doesn't say anything about the future. I hope that with our conversation that will raise the consciousness about the important things will provide some meaningful information to the audience, and we will promote your work and my work also. So researching your work. I haven't read your, your best selling book still haven't read it, but I have read plenty of articles from your website. Watch the movies, which I really liked. And since my childhood, I remember those writings with you with one of our politicians from the past. So, if you don't mind, I would like to start with your doctoral thesis, because time is something that interests me a lot. And I'm researching our cultural heritage, and gained an understanding that the time is actually not a linear thing. It's more like cycle or spiral things. So what can you tell us about your doctoral thesis and how do you understand the time how you comprehend it. Well, we are forced, we are forced to use language, because we have no other tool to communicate but language often falls short. Language is often problematic as any Zen Buddhist would tell you. And I came across the same problem. When I in the early 80s in 1982 1984 was writing my doctoral thesis. And at that time I obtained a dual double doctorate in philosophy and in physics. So I came across a similar problem. You see all the previous physicists, we are talking Einstein, others. They were great innovators, but they were not did not change the language. The language of Einstein is exactly the language of Newton, exactly the language of Leibniz, exactly the language of Poincaré. I see was not a revolutionary. He was an innovator. There is a major distinction between these two things. To be a revolutionary, you need to change language. And Marx was among the first to observe that language changes consciousness and consciousness changes language they are intricately connected. If you don't change the language. You can say many new things, but you're not going to affect consciousness. You need to change the language in 1982 when I started writing my thesis. My first question was, can we rewrite physics from the ground floor using a minimal language. Because you see the problem in in physics for the last 400 years since Newton is that physics uses too many entities. It has too many entities. It has too many forces. It has too many. It's a multiplication of assumptions. It's too complicated to be true. It's probably not true. Reality is simplicity. Simplicity is beauty. Reality is beauty. It cannot be that reality relies on hundreds of elementary particles, hundreds of assumptions or thousands of assumptions. Half a dozen forces cannot be strong something's wrong. So I said let me rewrite physics and through physics, of course, our interface with reality. I'm using a minimal language. Now I'm not the first to think about it. There is a principle called parsimony parsimony in science means you should write theories that contain minimal assumptions and minimal entities. It's also known as Occam's razor. I started to eliminate, started to eliminate first I eliminated mass, then I eliminated motion, then I eliminated space. I eliminated every time I eliminated, I rewrote all of physics without the word that I had eliminated. So I rewrote all of physics without masses. Then I rewrote all of physics without masses and space. Then I rewrote all of physics without masses and space and motion, etc, etc, etc momentum, etc. Finally, I was left with one word. One single word without which it would, it was impossible to describe the world. In other words, without which it was impossible to do physics. That word was time. I was left only with time. I constructed a theory of physics, which describes the universe as a field of potentialities. Time is the ultimate realization of all these potentialities. Once all these potentialities are realized, we will have ended time. That will be the end time. But until such time, there is time. And because the number of potentialities is essentially infinite, you're not likely to run out of time anytime soon. I use in my theory of physics, a single word time. When I look at time from the left, it becomes mass. When I look at it from the right, it becomes motion. When you look at it from under, it becomes space. If you take time and you look at it a different ways mathematically, you derive, you get the old concepts of space, of motion, of momentum, of masses, all of them are manifestations of time. Because all of them are potentialities of the field. Because we are very limited creatures, even you and me are limited creatures, believe it or not. Because we are very limited creatures, we tend to see multiplicity where there is actually uniformity. And we tend to give names to different manifestations of the same thing. Now it took the physics community well over 30 years to understand what I was saying. But fortunately, in the last six or seven years, there is a group of several dozen scientists from all over the world, some of them very prominent in gravitation and relativity theory and so on, particle physics. There's a group of 40, 50 scientists from all over the world, and they are working on my original theory. They took it away, they would took it way far beyond my original theory. I mean, their contributions are massive and far in my opinion outweigh my contributions. But it's my work, basically, they are developing my work. They even succeeded to register a patent, technological patent, based on my work. Because if I'm right, if I'm right, and if actually everything is a manifestation of a single thing, which I call time because I don't have language, I can't call it anything else. But if I'm right, then you can convert anything to anything because it's all manifestations of the same thing. And they succeeded to register a patent in the United States, converting electricity to gravity and back, which is the first, the first proof that my theory may be right. Of course, it's still a long way to go. This isn't a natural, what I did. Thank you very much. How can we apply this, this manifestation of wanting of time? How can we apply this to present Republic of Macedonia? Is our collective consciousness manifesting some memories from the past? And what would you say us about the connection with the ancient Macedonia time and present Republic of Macedonia? People like scholars like Jung, they came up with the concept of collective unconscious. More recently, we have the new branch in biology known as epigenetics, which is essentially a kind of Lamarchism. There was a debate in the 19th century between Lamarck and Darwin. Lamarck said that properties and behaviors that are acquired during the life of the organism are transferred to the offspring of the organism. So if a giraffe or a chimpanzee learns something new, they will transfer it genetically to the offspring. And Darwin said this is nonsense. Each generation starts essentially from zero through a process of natural selection responsive to the environment. For a very long time until recently, we were all Darwinists and we discarded Lamarckism. We said Lamarckism is nonsense. But there's a new branch of biology, legitimate branch, not pseudoscience. It's called epigenetics. And we are discovering that the environment has an impact on genetic material. And it's transferred, environmental changes are transferred via genetic material to next generations. In the field of psychology, Jung came up with a concept of collective unconscious. He said that we all carry information from previous generations and this information is embedded in our brain. He said that this information is codified via a series of symbols or symbolic representations which he called archetypes. And the archetypes codified this information and carry it forward from one generation to the next is the way we relate to the world based on previous generations experience and knowledge and so on and so forth. Of course, we don't need all this mess. We don't need epigenetics. We don't need collective conscious. We have books, books, movies, art is our cultural DNA. It is a message from previous generations. Michelangelo talks to me directly because he had written letters and I can read his letters, you know. So did Van Gogh? So they all talk to me directly and Van Gogh had been much more influential in my life than most of my neighbors. So we codify previous generations. We embed them in works of culture and art and we transfer them forward and they have an immense impact on our mind. You have read my articles. It had some impact on you. We use language to affect each other across time and across generations. The concept of nation state is a very new concept. It's 19th century concept. You didn't exist before. The concept of ethnicity is a lot older. The concept of race is nonsensical. There's no such thing as race. It's total nonsense, biologically. And of course invented by racists. Macedonians are like every other ethnicity on earth. An admixture and concoction of multiple biological entities, which migrated across great distances, intermarried, intermingled. Neanderthals and Chromanians mated and had common descendants. And they were very different to each other. They were almost, you know, different families. Neanderthals were not fully human. They were humanoid. But still there was mating. There was so. Of course, you cannot pinpoint and say, this is a Macedonian. This is a Jew. This is a, it's no longer valid. We are intermixed. We are, we are the outcome of a huge cocktail of migrations into marriages, births, deaths, inheritances, invasions, collaborations. I mean, so occupations. So, but to be a Macedonian, I think, is not about biology. It's a mistake to reduce Macedonianism to biology. To be a Macedonian is a state of mind. And a state of mind that carries through the generations carries through outside the borders of Macedonia, because a huge number of Macedonians are living outside Macedonia. Of course, is embedded in Macedonia, the Macedonian state and Macedonian institutions, both formal institutions and informal institutions, like the family of the community of the village. All these institutions reflect, of course, this cultural social heritage, not biological heritage, that's nonsensical, but cultural social heritage Macedonians are distinct, absolutely distinct. I can spot a Macedonian from a mile away. They are distinct because they share this cultural social heritage. And you would do well to define yourselves by this dimension, not by any invented chauvinistic nationalistic dimension which has no validity in science or in history. What was your first contact in Macedonia and how did it happen for you to move to Macedonia at the end of 20th century. I was advisor to many Serbian many entities in Serbian banks, municipalities MKS, which was at the time a huge metal manufacturing facility. I was advisor to several ministers in the government of Milosevic at the time. They were in charge of breaking the embargo, because the embargo wasn't forced inhumanly and people were dying in hospitals, and there was starting to be hunger. There was enormous inflation. I worked with a central bank of Ramovich, who was the governor of the central bank in Serbia, who was a Jew. I was a Jew. So he called for help. I worked with him and we eliminated inflation, he eliminated inflation based on some of my advice. So we took care of inflation and then I built very complex corporate structures and financial structures to defeat the embargo. And I'm glad to say that I succeeded. So the embargo was totally ineffective within Serbia, based on my work and the work of several ministers, young ministers. And so through this, I came in touch with Macedonian businessmen and Macedonian companies. One of the main lifelines of Serbia during the wars was Macedonia. Goods and services were coming through Macedonia, through Macedonian companies and financial institutions and so on. Coming into Serbia, we're taking advantage of this. I constructed Shell companies in Lebanon and many other places who worked with Macedonian companies. Never mind the details. Macedonia was very helpful. Macedonia in some ways saved Serbia during that period. I would say that about 40% of all illicit goods that came into Serbia came through Macedonia and with active Macedonian collaboration. It would not have been possible otherwise, including the state, banks, everyone was working together to help Serbia. And so when this finished in 1995, I had a partner in Serbia. He used to be the head of the Mossad in the region and he retired. He became a businessman and he moved from Serbia to Macedonia. And he said to me, Sam, this is a young country, they're very confused, they're disoriented, they're in panic. The foreigners are taking over, they're telling them what to do and they obey blindly. I mean, this is a bad situation, the country is hostage completely. To the IMF, to many other, you know, can you come here and help them the way you help Serbia? And I did. I came here in 1996. I did my best to try to help. I worked, by the way, with all governments, I worked initially with the same government. I worked with the Ministry of Finance. At the time, I worked with agency privatization. I worked with the stock exchange. I helped to construct the stock exchange. So I was involved essentially with the same structure. But when I witnessed the corruption and problems, I decided to switch sides. And I started to work with Vemero at the time. Vemero was Gogaevski, Gogaevski was nobody. He was nothing. He was Gogaevski and Trikovski. So I worked with Gogaevski and Trikovski for a while until they became the government. And when they, and I was not in Macedonia anymore. I came to Macedonia for two years just to help. I helped set up. Stock exchange, I helped a little with privatization. I helped a lot with all kinds of issues with IMF and World Bank. And then I left. I left to Russia. I moved to Russia and to Czech Republic. So I was outside of Macedonia. And Gogaevski was appointed minister without portfolio. And he called me to come back. He asked me to come back and be economic advisor to the government, together with former prime minister of Yugoslavia. So we were two, two economic advisors. And I returned and I became economic advisor to the government, not actually to Gogaevski. As economic advisor to the government and within my remit, I also worked with Gogaevski in the ministry of finance. When he was appointed minister of finance, it's my recommendation and other, other people's recommendation. So Stoemenov was minister of finance. He was replaced by Gogaevski. And then for the rest of the time I worked with Gogaevski. And I continued to work with Gogaevski after Stoemenov lost power. They lost power justifiably because they were even more corrupt than as they assumed if it's possible. And so I continued to work with him for a while, several years. And that was it. I got married to a Macedonian woman, Lydia. And I made Macedonia my base. My base in the sense that I always had assignments. For example, now I spend four years in Russia, in Hungary and in the United Kingdom. So, but Macedonia is my base. I work in other countries. I teach. I'm a professor of psychology and a professor of finance. I teach in several universities around the world, but I always come back to Macedonia. Of course, when the pandemic started, there was no way I would leave my wife alone in Macedonia. So I returned. In most part of Macedonian public, you are perceived as the great eminence behind the rise of Nikola Grueski. And in some of your interviews, I've catched a statement that you said, correct me if I'm wrong, that the team that Grueski collected wouldn't be average managers in some foreign company. So what is your memory from that time? And how was our ex-prime minister who is now fugitive over there in Hungary? How was he when he was young? Did he have a potential for management and organizing? Or did he learn that through counseling, through time? Well, it's a fact that I picked him up. I mean, I was teaching seminars and courses to thousands of Macedonian managers. Thousands, literally. Agency of privatization organized seminars that lasted several months. Each seminar was 300 managers. So thousands. I was teacher to thousands of managers here. And I was exposed to all managers and brokers and through the stock exchange and so on. And of all these thousands of people, I picked him and only him. I offered to him to write a series of dialogues. And these dialogues were published in Nevnik and later another newspaper. And were collected in a book. And the book was published. That was the first book of Grueski. Yes, it was the first book of Grueski. I was no longer here. I was living in Czech Republic, but he published a book on his own. And this was his visit card. This book was his visit card. Now, why did I pick him up? Because in many of my seminars, I was organizing simulations. And in these simulations, people were given tasks. They were given roles. So in many of these simulations, I gave the role of a manager or the role of a prime minister or the role of a minister of finance. I was observing how people behave in the simulations. This is by the way a common practice in the West. It's known as Delphi. So I brought this practice into Macedonia. I was the first to organize simulation games. And I noticed that of all the people who participated in the simulation games, the only person with initiative, leadership, innovative ideas, extremely good follow up and performative or executive capacity. In other words, the capacity to accomplish goals, not only to fantasize. The only person literally was Nikola Gueski. That's how we stood out. We stood out in the simulation games. While everybody else was treating it as a game and were fantasizing meandering, thinking to the right, thinking to the left, arguing Macedonia's love to argue, and so on and so forth, Nikola came into the scene sometimes late. And within minutes, everyone would be working together in a coherent manner to accomplish goals. I was very impressed. He was a kid. He was a child. He was working as a low level broker in a tiny bank, Balkanskabakar, I think. And he didn't have his own desk. The first time I met him, he was sharing a desk with two other people. And the manager called him and told him make coffee for Vakni. And he ran to the kitchen and he made coffee for Vakni. So this was his status in the bank. He was very low level. But I realized that he has a normal potential. And I remember once we were traveling in his rickety old car that he finally succeeded to save money and buy. I think it cost $500 if I remember. And we were traveling in his car and he said, Sam, what do you think about me? I said, I think in a few years you would be Prime Minister of Macedonia. And I remember how he laughed. He thought I was kidding him. I said, I'm not kidding you. In a few years you're going to be Prime Minister of Macedonia. And I was not wrong. Nikola is not a great innovator. It's not. But he is wonderful at accepting innovation. He is extremely open minded. He is daring. He's a daring person. He is courageous. He embarks on long-term huge projects. He is the best organizer and manager I ever came across in Macedonia. And I came across everyone, trust me. From Svetozav Yanovski down. I know them all. I've worked with them all. He is by far the best. It's intuitive. It's, if you wish, collective unconscious. It's something in his genes. He didn't learn it anything. He didn't study management anyway. And he struck me as the person who can take Macedonia forward. Regrettably, I'm not sure that his level of emotional maturity matched his level of managerial capacity. And this allowed people around him to take advantage of his vulnerabilities. Number one, his need to be liked and loved. He needs to be accepted and liked and loved. He has very thin skin. He gets hurt very, very easily. You can hurt this man very easily. He's constantly in pain when he's rejected. People knew that. So they took advantage of his need to be loved and liked and accepted. They gave him a fake sense of family, fake sense of belonging. And then essentially they could do almost anything they wanted with it. And regrettably, he allowed himself to some extent to be manipulated, although he's a very strong man. He has boundaries, but not with his closest dearest and dearest. And he let them do this to him. Nikolaj Głewski is a good man, a truly good man, extremely talented man, the best manager, organizer and leader that Macedonia ever had and ever likely to have. But these vulnerabilities that I've mentioned, led him to raise today regrettably. It's a huge loss for Macedonia. I was a witness because I was part in 2012 for working for some close people to Nikolaj Głewski for a year. After that I saw with what I mean and I quit it. So you're mentioning something that some of Macedonians know about his emotional vulnerability. We know that he didn't apply the Machiavellian principle better to be feared than to be loved. He didn't apply that. And we all witnessed that some of the close people around him weren't presenting the reality truly to him, but they were lying to him. And now my question is, did that emotional vulnerability of the ex-prime minister project it on whole Macedonian nation? My question is, did he emotional vulnerability influenced the happenings in Macedonia and all of the people who lived here? All leaders, all leaders in history who have mental health issues, minor or major, don't have to be major. Minor, like emotional vulnerability. It's a mental health issue. All leaders with mental health issues create contagion. They infect. They infect in concentric circles. They infect their closest. Their closest infect the others. The others infect further. And finally the whole nation is infected. Because of their insecurities, this kind of people tend to gravitate towards a personality cult. So people with mental health issues, like Donald Trump, like Joseph Stalin, like these people, like Mao, like Hitler, like in big ways and small ways, they create personality cults because they feel secure only within personality cults. And personality cult is an echo chamber where you don't come across criticism, disagreement, information that challenges your self-image and self-perception. You don't come across adversity and conflict. You don't develop dissonance. These leaders are actually very fragile people. They're easily breakable when they are confronted with countervailing data. They need to isolate themselves in order to function. Now, many of them have been very efficacious leaders. I mentioned all these names. They are all very efficient leaders. We're very efficient leaders. But their downfall is because they can't stand reality. They try to convert reality into fantastic space where they can remain safe and secure and never suffer pain or dissonance. So when you try to force reality to become a fantasy, you lose both reality and your fantasy. And this is what had happened to all these people. Reality is stronger than anyone. And reality is unpleasant. 90% of reality is unpleasant. This is what children learn when they grow up. Growing up is a process of loss. And number one loss is the view of reality is a good place to be in. Reality is not a good place to be. It's dystopian. Reality is abrasive. Reality is hurtful and painful. Reality is challenging. Reality leads you to mourning and grieving. Reality is a horrible place to be in. It's a horrible movie. But if you try to supplant reality with fantasy, if your solution is fantasy defense mechanism, fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism. If you supplant reality with fantasy, you can no longer evolve and grow. Natural selection stops. Evolution, growth, maturation critically depend on unbridled, unlimited, unmitigated access to reality. The mother who isolates her child from reality is not doing the child a favor. This child will never grow up to be an adult. You need to expose your children to reality. I keep saying that the main role of a parent is to push the children away. Not to hug them, to push them away. That's the main role of a good parent. The main role of a good leader is to share the bad news. Leadership is not like the Evangelion. It's not the good news. Leadership is the bad news. The real test of a leader is when the news are bad, and that's what Donald Trump had failed. For example, when the news became bad, he became delusional because he preferred fantasy to reality. And the same with Nikolaj Głewski. That's how he felt, too. Because when the news became bad, and the news did become bad in the last years of his reign, of his leadership, he refused to see it. He continued to occupy his fantastic space. Thereby, he could not adapt. Only exposure to reality causes you to successfully adapt, become self-efficacious, and extract favorable outcomes only. Of course, it's a painful process. Adaptation and change are always painful. But if you have that pain averse, don't be a leader. Don't have children. There is a saying, if you hate the smells of cooking, don't enter the kitchen. So, looking 20 years and more years back, and all those, since we were very young, we remember those articles in the daily newspapers that you published in a book that you mentioned. And how do you see Macedonian economy now? Were those hopes from the beginning of 21st century, were those hopes, and all that working, and changing, putting taxes, fiscal economy, all of that stuff, do you see it as a successful project in the past 20 or something years, or do you see Macedonia as something, a representation of something else? Well, as I told you, I've been out of Macedonia way for four years. I can't say that I'm updated. But from what I see, what I see, you realize, of course, that Macedonia started with enormous, unconquerable disadvantages. Yes. Few countries, to my recollection, few countries in human history, started with such disadvantages as Macedonia did. Anywhere from insurgencies to embargoes to crazy neighbors to, I mean, you name it. And yet, despite all this, which is indeed the Macedonian character going back to the beginning of our conversation, you're survivors. You're survivors. You're very patient, even topic. You are too patient. You're survivors. And so you had survived. When you look at the Macedonian from what I see, this is the caveat. It's only what I see. From your look at the Macedonian economy, it's in much better condition than it was when I came here, of course. The financial sector is in much better condition. Manufacturing sector is streamlined. Even agriculture is improving. Exports, imports are on a good line in my view. The dependence on outside flows of income from international, multinational, international institutions such as IMF World Bank. This dependence is gone. It's no longer true. Remittances are still important, but otherwise Macedonia is much more self-sufficient than it was in the 90s and so on, and thereby much more independent politically and otherwise. You're integrated in NATO. Probably you will be in the European Union at some point, although I'm not quite sure what's the big deal about this. So I think you're moving in the right direction and I think you have gained a lot. You've made big gains in terms of your economy even unemployment is down and so on. The only black cloud is the brain drain, brain drain of Macedonians. Your best minds have left. No offense. Your best minds, your youngest minds have left. That doesn't bode well for your future. If I were to make two recommendations, it would be to diversify the economy by introducing much more IT, much more back office services to emulate India, not as far as COVID, as far as the economy, emulate India to become a service nation, essentially. The shift emphasis from agriculture and manufacturing to services, especially IT services. Is there a location for outsourcing and have potential for people? Yes, so I would do this. This is first recommendation, immediate diversification of the economy, immediate. And the second thing I would do, I would place, I would subject all the resources of the state with no exception and without one Macedonian dinner left, all of it to attracting back young educated people. Israel is doing this. Israel is doing this. Israel after five years. You don't pay taxes for 10 years. You get apartment and all the appliances within the apartment for half price. So Israel is attracting back young educated people, 190,000 this year alone. Macedonian needs to attract these people back because it's not only their brains they're bringing back. They're bringing back networks of contacts. They are bringing back exposure to the practices of the world. They are bringing back intimate knowledge with new technologies. So technological spreading to the genes because they learned it up there. So they're bringing back a lot. And this is your treasure. This is your treasure. And yet you are doing nothing to attract them back. Which is a great thing. One of the reasons I think is that your politicians are very, very important. We are not just here. We have vast land for agriculture. We have. I've worked in several countries. Visited plenty of business parts in the states. We have 90 of space to build new business parts to get all of our ITs, engineers, economists that are. Abroad to come here. But unfortunately no one does that. I will give my own example. I studied abroad. decided not to move again, because as we say, the rock awaits on its own place. And I still hope that there is a, because that hope is something that's natural, even though sometimes it's very dangerous. I still still hope that in my 36 that people that are around my generation and the younger ones have the already the consciousness for the new new century. And with now I need to ask this question as a normal citizens, business owners, researchers, we witness that all those leaders from previous century and the 20th century and now all those Macedonian leaders, all of them have something that they need to be glorified. As you said, no one of them wasn't so honest to confront the problems because the reality is really cruel. And all that fake propaganda with positive, positive, fake positive information just destructs our hope and then motivates us. So emotional disbalance as I read in some of your texts is one of the baselines for a future narcissism. And that's so I will ask you right away. Are Macedonian rulers narcissists? And are they psychopaths? I don't know about psychopaths. I think, let me let me retrace a bit. And you know, as you have a saying, hair doesn't grow on my tongue. So I, I say what I think bluntly. Many people dislike it, your viewers may dislike it, your listeners may dislike it. But still, people who had been suppressed and oppressed, people I mean, collectives, groups of people, nations, ethnicities, who have been suppressed and oppressed, throughout the majority of their common history, tend to compensate for their weakness, for their shortcomings, vulnerabilities, by becoming narcissistic and grandiose. So if you have a collective, which had been subjected to humiliation, repeated humiliations, tortures, confiscations of property, disrespect, extreme disrespect. This kind of collective naturally will develop defenses. It's impossible to live with daily humiliation, daily disrespect, daily. It's impossible to look at your child's eyes. When you as a father, you're humiliated by an Ottoman officer, you know, it's, it's very so it's natural to develop narcissistic defenses, grandiose defenses. It's a natural in individuals as well. It's a natural defense to trauma and abuse in early childhood. I think like the Jews, for example, Macedonians have this embedded grandiose element or grandiose trick. We are special. We're unique. We know the chosen ones. We're the chosen. We know best. Macedonians have very strong resistance to learning. We know best. Who are you to tell me? Et cetera. So these are all grandiose defenses. Now, of course, the leader, the leader is the amplification and ratification and concentration of the collective that he is leading is the blank screen upon which everyone project their own defenses, wishes, hopes, fantasies and so on. But only leaders, good leaders, successful leaders, a blank screens, essentially. And so naturally you see the Macedonian grandiose defenses amplified, magnified and concentrated in in the personalities of your leaders. And your leaders are highly narcissistic. I won't say psychopathic. Highly narcissistic. They're highly grandiose. They're divorced from reality. They've impaired reality testing in many cases. They they resort to fantasy. Narcissism is a fantasy defense. Narcissism is not fantasies of grandeur, fantasies of fantasy defense. So they resort to fantasies a lot. They reject reality very often. Reality really has been had been unbearable and intolerable in Macedonia. So you have this, of course, you have this because you are like that. Yeah. Now, Macedonians have a complication. You're weak and small. You've always been weak and small. You've always been mistreated and abused by others. You have developed a defense of grandiosity, but you cannot express this grandiosity because if you express this grandiosity openly, you will be punished. So you develop something which we call in psychology passive aggression. You became passive aggressive. You are never openly aggressive, but you sabotage. You sabotage. You never torture anyone, but you make you make the other person's life hell. You will never slap or beat up someone like in Serbia, but you will make their life hell. You will make it very difficult for them to to smile. You know, you will, if you're unofficial in the government or something, you will insist on the tiniest letter of the law so as to not give the service or harass the citizen. Your passive aggression manifests in in many ways because your grandiosity is suppressed, not allowed to be expressed. And because you're constantly abused and mistreated to this very day, maltreated. I mean, you're constantly maltreated and abused. You didn't have a break. You didn't have a time where to recover. And I really pity you as a collective. It's it's very similar to the Jews, but the Jews at least succeeded to establish a state where they are the strongest power in the in the neighborhood. And anyone who dares to say anything is punished immediately in the most severe way. So the Jews somehow transcended their collective weakness because the Holocaust was such a trauma that the Jews said nevermore. That's it. There was a Holocaust. In some ways, luckily for the Jewish people, there was a Holocaust. Luckily, in some ways, because it walked them up. They woke up. The Jews also had fantasies. The Jews had fantasies of becoming German, of becoming French, citizens of the world. They thought they're going to become citizens of the world. They said anti-Semitism is dead. Now we are all citizens of the world. They have fantasies. They refuse to confront reality. Even when the Nazis came to power, the Jews were denying that anything horrible is going to happen. So and they woke up. The Holocaust woke them up and they said, okay, if that's the case, now we understand and we are going to be the abusers from now. We had been abused for 2000 years. Now we are going to be the abusers. No one is going to abuse us anymore. We're going to abuse everyone. Of course, it's a sick, sick decision. It's a pathological decision. It's a post-traumatic pathological decision. The decision to be grandiose, the decision to be an abuser, the decision to depend to blackmail, emotionally blackmail, all these decisions are essentially sick pathological reactions to abuse and trauma, passive aggression. We react to abuse and trauma in a variety of ways. The Macedonian way is grandiose passive aggression. The Israeli way is psychopathy in essence. Israel is a psychopathic state completely. So each one of us reacts differently. The Serbian way is to be victim. The Serbians are great on being victims. They emotionally blackmail the world. They're always victims. Never mind what they do. They're victims. Each nation, each collective reacts differently. Can that my next question is can that passive aggression express in big, vast protests or destruction and in your opinion what should have what more should happen to wake Macedonian sub because everything that you mentioned from the past I don't want to repeat our history but if we go from Second World War to present day like there was a genocide in Aegean Macedonia in the former Yugoslavia plenty of people were tortured not physically only but psychologically. Since 91st we are all bombarded with especially my generation. I was in first grade in 1991. So when we started in school the Macedonia became independent. So we are witnessing on all of that torture that we have and we go if we do a little analysis of the 21st century in Macedonia for me the my opinion as an economist that the ex- ex-ruler shape of Gruyavsky and his team unfortunately escaped very much from reality and did a great diversification in the people now we have plenty of poor people and small amount of extremely rich people the we witnessed that all that free economy thing is not applicable to Macedonia because no one here measured actually how much food do we need how much do we produce what can we produce what should we import what should be export and I it's honest thing to have a suspicion that there is a conspiracy behind but as you've said the leaders are projection from the people and from the collective consciousness and if we go back now this that contract that bad contract with Greece with Bulgaria what Albania is doing to us what Serbia is doing with the church so we're pressed from all of our neighbors and my question is what more should should happen to for Macedonians to wake up because we reached the point of the abyss the spiral went into his uh the spiral rolled into into the point and now needs to unwrap again and we all hope that something will happen but psychologically we see all this I'll I have the opportunity and free will to express myself publicly in the medias and the social networks through my blogs through my books and I'm very glad that we are similar in that thing today don't having a hair on our tongue and saying everything that we mean so I hope that we will not need a war to wake us up even though the war is actually for our souls now and as you said in the previous government they did all these projects all those monuments but neither one of the monuments have the original flag with 16 symbols they are all with 1415 so uh learning symbol is symbolism and as a esoteric sciences hermeticism and I'm interested very deep in occultism there's no play with the symbology symbols are very strong they are esoteric and exoteric and my opinion is that all those monuments that were meant to be copied instead of making good thing they created bad thing because as a symbol they weren't completed neither one of the sun's head of the opinion of the sun didn't had 16 rays when they put Alexander statue they didn't put Alexander the race name they put some horse warrior so there is no playing with symbols if like in those runes like if the rune is upward it's good omen if it's backwards it's bad omen like in tarot cards so I think that that symbology destructed more brought more destruction and with this government that is now in the past years with all those country contracts with the neighbors everything that's happening inside the state things are going really bad in bad way so my question is according to your opinion as a doctor of psychology finance what should happen for more should happen for Macedonia's to wake up wasn't this enough till now or do we need to suffer more I'll try to be a bit more practical I'm not very strong on esoteric science I'm a scientist by training so first of all Macedonia is a much more assertive now even I would say aggressive then they were 25 years ago that's for sure 25 years ago I could do anything I wanted to Macedonian and he will never ever protest today I'm likely to be slapped for doing the same things and I'm happy that this is the way maybe that this is the way things are I'm happy that young Macedonians are much more assertive much more stand up for themselves have more boundaries and self-respect and will not let anyone be treated the way many foreigners and others mistreated Macedonians 25 years ago with impunity so there's a lot a lot more assertiveness even aggression in some cases I think you're one of the major problems of Macedonia is that you don't have cohesion or coherence of an of a national sense the Jews constructed the state of Israel because they were able to rely 100 blindly on the diaspora the diaspora provided the nascent Jewish state in 1948 with weapons with money with access with contacts with influence all the Jews stood unified behind Israel there was no dissenter and no heretic and they continued to stand unified behind Israel until very recently recently there are very worrying fissures among Jews outside Israel because the Jewish state had become psychopathic and Jews with good conscience cannot support this so there's a big problem though but until recently you don't have this you don't have you don't have national cohesion which stretches across continents and across across oceans you don't have unified support you are very fractured and fragmented even internally within Macedonia you still have village or tribal mentality rather than national mentality you still put local patriotism above patriotism you still have distinctions and differences which set you apart rather than put you together and you enhance and encourage and cherish these differences you celebrate your differences not your commonalities consequently you're unable never mind how hard you try you're unable to come up with a vision which would be acceptable to everyone because local interests local affiliations and allegiances local patronage networks are far stronger than the state and far stronger than any political party and far stronger than any think tank or group of intellectuals or which leads me to the next point you have no intellectuals there is no there is no future without intelligentsia the greatest revolutions in human history the October revolution in Russia even bad revolutions like the nazi revolution Zionism of course they started with intellectuals not with politicians intellectuals yeah not politicians not with peasants not with villagers not with factory workers not with the army that's all nonsense it started with intellectuals and the intellectuals preceded the revolution by decades so a process of intellectual fermentation precedes any transformation the problem of Macedonia it has many professors but no intellectuals an intellectual is someone with or without an academic degree who has a clear-eyed vision of reality and communicates it fearlessly and selflessly do you know one person in Macedonia who fits this bill because i don't i'm not talking about you i'm talking about let's say those who are considered national level intellectual i don't know one of them who fits the bill of a public intellectual they're academics and they're respected for their academic accomplishments but they're not public intellectuals they're definitely not what we call thought leaders so you're like a herd without a shepherd they're not shepherds because what were the prophets who is Moses who is Muhammad who is Jesus they're in public intellectuals yes and so in the absence of prophets you cannot have a religion the religion of your future and so this is a third problem that i see the fourth problem that i see is globalization of course your young and educated have options outside Macedonia which are far more attractive than the options that Macedonia had created for them internally and in today's day and age borders are meaningless and people just move away that's it you have one life and so people just move away there is no economic incentive to stay but there is also no spiritual incentive to stay some people sometimes people stay some people sometimes people make economic sacrifices because they have a vision a spiritual calling because they work for something bigger than themselves you know but you don't have even this you don't have poetry in public life your public life is very dull prose there's no poetry no no soul no spirit it's all about day-to-day grocery lists you know yep and if you're a bit gifted in any field in formation technology languages never mind if you're a bit gifted you need a bit more than the daily the pedestrian the mundane the grocery list you need some poetry and so not one of your leaders has this mind this poetic mind the the only said exception was Gogevsky but Gogevsky you know fell into corruption and so but he was a poet at least and he had this vision poetic vision had he been less corrupt he could have been a great leader you know but so when you wake up in the morning in Macedonia you wake up to a reality that is all as Adam Smith said brutish nasty and short and it's not balanced by any color by any hope by any poetry by any vision so but vision is not fantasy vision is based on reality it's not balanced by any vision brought born strategy yes of course everything first happens in the mind and then becomes reality so people leave people go away your most important people go away brain drain is enormous here one of the worst in the world worse than most countries of Africa put these four problems together and you understand i think why Macedonia is stuck spinning its wheels in place it's like Alice in Wonderland where the queen says you have to run very fast to stay in place so there's a lot of running in Macedonia a lot of energy a lot of announcements a lot of press releases a lot of interviews a lot of there's a lot of running but essentially one of them had the spiritual meaning connected with the practice practice real practice practice in reality you don't have public intellectuals and you don't have spiritual leaders in the absence of these two you can never become more than what you are it's simple aren't those lobby groups of rulers of Macedonia from the politicians party and their way of ruling my first my opinion is that it's not my opinion it's my how i perceive the things and understand them as a young person who is working in economic research cultural heritage research research of our potential i witness that those public authorities are actually not allowing for the young intellectuals to pop out in public for example i'll mention one thing uh seven years seven years ago i brought this big international scientific team to do a measurements on the geoglyph here and those pr from the previous government didn't allow the journalists to interview me they only interviewed the foreigners so that was again proof one of the many that the people who are deciding about big national things are actually not allowing for young people open-minded people that are capable that are doing that have not only academic knowledge but knowledge from the field actually those rulers are not allowing this thing this or real Macedonian intellectuals to come on they're afraid of competition simply it's the same reason yeah the same reason they are not allowing foreigners meaningful Macedonian foreigners to actually come here and do something good i have many friends Macedonians in Canada in Australia and so they tried many times they're sabotaged actively as a matter of policy they're sabotaged you don't have any any laws like Israel does for returning citizens or diaspora people you don't have Israel is multiple numerous laws in support of people who come back to the country in support of people Jews in the diaspora you don't have all this because your politicians are small-minded and not very qualified to use an understatement and they're terrified of qualified skilled open-minded cosmopolitan competition because this competition will eat them alive within one year unless yes and they don't want this they want this country to remain isolated small backward frightened frightened mistreated and so on because it's good for business and politics in Macedonia that's another comment I should make there's no politics in Macedonia of course there are no political parties thank you there's no politics of political parties there is there are rackets there are rackets many of these rackets border on criminal there are rackets of appropriating state resources and reallocating them and redistributing them to loyalists and cronies and so on family members of course so political parties in Macedonia are combination travel agencies personal ATMs and so on this this nothing resembling political parties in the west nothing you know what political parties in Macedonia don't even resemble political parties in Russia or in China the political parties are much worse they resemble closest I can say is mafia but mafia was matzini autoritari it was a great organization that these people can't even we can't even compare it with them can we do a one minute break yes of course one minute break sorry about that and thank you okay don't worry in small countries where informal networks are more important than formal networks in such small countries is very common for political parties to be actually the way I described not political parties but networks of patronage clientele but these are called clientele network be until yeah it's clientele network so this is very common in small countries that are that are where informal dealings are much more important than formal dealings in other ways who you know matters much more than what you know yes so I'm not surprised that Macedonia developed this because Israel until the 1970s was exactly like this was exactly like this so hopefully you will grow up and mature and become adults political adults because right now you're not and once this happens maybe it will give rise to voices which are which also have an extra dimension or vision hope some ideas and so on right now you don't have leaders you have managers and you don't even have managers not leaders and you don't even have you don't even have very good managers at least okay if you have good managers you have six-rate or fourth-rate managers pretending to be leaders that's the situation everything that we learned I studied in Varna University of Economics Varna that's one of the oldest economic universities on this part of Europe and everything that we learned in school it's not applicable to the real situation because if we go by the book if we take Adam Smith for example if we go by the book and if we control our agriculture production and all of that if we control it in the right way the results are inevitable they should come sooner or later but like this with all that fake politic politic serialism neither the leftist or left neither the right wing is right both of them are meeting something in the center and I would ask you what will you tell to me and my friends and to many Macedonian young people who want to stay and to have and that have hopes that Macedonia will be will have a brighter future so you need you need to create you need to create a parallel state you need to opt out of the institutions and to opt out of current politics and to give up you need to give up on everything that exists because you will not find solace or the ability to express yourself or to realize your dreams within existing power structures you need to establish your own power structures you need to establish literally a parallel state and you need to challenge the existing state as a parallel state a challenge I'm not saying god forbid violence or challenge institutionally yeah as a parallel state when I say parallel state what's the difference between parallel state and political party for example when I say parallel state I mean that you need to replicate the totality of the state separately from the state so you need to provide solutions that are economic you need to provide a vision you need to provide to provide goals and planning programmatic you need to be programmatic you need to be realistic of course because initially your goals should be very minimal and you should aspire to realism but once you realize these goals you would have acquired self-esteem and self-confidence and self-sufficiency you could go on to bigger goals so it must be incremental graduated gradual but people like you people who had been exposed to the world intellectuals you have no place now you need to create your own ecosystem and maybe even ego ecosystem you need to team up you need to commune you need to interact you need to begin to form networks with structure even hierarchy you need to leverage social media to do all this and you need to have clear-eyed goals starting with small minimal ones going further and you need to begin to act even the smallest actions just meeting just talking just daydreaming daydreaming is an important function then settling settling on one or two goals realizing these goals you need to begin to collaborate with people in the diaspora very closely to uproot the existing order your only hope is to team up with the diaspora they have a vested interest to do the same because they had been excluded so all the outcasts and the misfeeds and the miscreants and the nerds and the intellectuals all these people need to work together with the resources of the diaspora which are not small and you need to offer an alternative just provide an alternative that people can then choose to select or not you need to avoid politics because if you were to be politicized people will consider you as another political party you need to avoid politics you need to offer spirit and soul and vision and poetry and action coupled with action you need to prove to people because people are not convinced they are disillusioned and cynical you need to prove to people that there is a direct line from poetry to action to goals to results what people don't know and don't understand that politics rarely leads to results poetry always leads to results that's what people don't understand and you need to get them reacquainted with this indubitable fact of history everything important in history started with poetry the bible is poetry the new testament is poetry the communist manifesto is poetry everything started with poetry politics led nowhere who remembers politicians do you remember politicians from 10 years ago who remembers politicians but who can forget Lenin who can forget I don't know I mean Alexander Alexander of Macedonia yes who can forget Jesus who can forget these were poets these were not commercialists they were not traders they were not managers they were not even leaders Jesus was not a leader he succeeded to collect 12 people very poor leadership but look at his impact Muhammad look at the impact of these people you need to reacquaint the public with a basic foundational fact if you don't dream you never have reality if you have only reality you end up in a nightmare these are the foundational facts and dreaming is about poetry poetry of the soul it's about allowing yourself to imagine better worlds and then converting this into a program with goals and then acting on this program it's very simple actually but Macedonians have lost the capacity to dream and they've lost the capacity to dream because they're cynical and they're cynical because they had been maltreated internally and externally I would say because of the because of the existential fear it looks like someone else is controlling the dream of Macedonian and doesn't allow us to dream like we are controlled in some 4d, 5d that is that is external but you're also maltreated internally by your own politicians and so on so as individuals you're mistreated at home and you're mistreated abroad and you're mistreated everywhere you look so this invades your interpersonal relationships as well I think you froze for some reason the connection is bad probably I hope we're still recording though you're frozen on the screen and I think the connection is gone it frees now it's good now it's good I just hope the recording is not disrupted so that's more or less it if you have any other questions I'm available and if not my my friends and the people that are following me would like to I know that would like me to ask this thing how would you compare present government and the previous government and are they acting the same sir I've been outside Macedonia for 4 years I'm not in position to answer not because I'm afraid or anything but I'm simply I don't know I don't have enough information okay I returned to Macedonia recently to be with my wife in the pandemic and I haven't been following honestly I haven't been following Macedonia I was involved in Russian affairs and then I moved on to Hungary and to the United Kingdom I was divorced from Macedonian affairs I don't know much I don't know close to anything actually I heard that Macedonia is I mean I've heard about the agreement with a name of course I heard that Macedonia is in NATO I don't know where all this is going or there's COVID and so on but I'm not qualified to answer this question I also don't even feel really on strong ground fair enough I appreciate that and respect that inspired from this talk I would be glad to send you an email my poetry book in England that was pleasure yes that I collected 10 years ago when I was younger I have two poetry books in Macedonian that are not published yet and I just would like to mention for the audience to know that when we mentioned revolution and all that stuff even our revolutionaries from the end of 19th century at the beginning of 20th century were actually researching the language even Vomaro started with the Lozars with the circuit Macedonian young organization that was trying to change the language in that official Bulgaria in the time and most of our revolutionaries were actually scientists they collected legends fairy tales they were doing technology, anthropology, geography they were scientists and I hope that in near time Macedonians will help themselves that will help ourselves and that we have enough friends in the world that when they'll see that we try and we not only try but work and put action that we have enough friends that will help us actually to build new Macedonia to build Macedonia from anew because this part of land doesn't matter how small it looks it has a great potential that you might surpass many of the big countries I agree the first interview I ever gave first ever was to Nova Macedonia and I said and it became the title of the interview I said Macedonia has potential that is equal to Switzerland I say I mean Switzerland has nothing I don't know if you look at Switzerland's data it's nothing not agricultural land not it's a it's a very poor country as far as geographical endowments it has nothing and look what you did Switzerland the richest country in the world if we take our natural resources our cultural heritage and the strength of the people and hard work hard working people that we have here if all of that is ruled and managed by people who have vision actually and who think 100 years from now on long-term strategy I hope the things will be better I can tell you one thing I have never come across a group of people more creative than Macedonians you're amazing every every person every second person is a musician every third person is a writer every I mean there is a lot of explosive creativity here people are very creative and intelligent people are intelligent level of literacy used to be very low but literacy is not intelligence it's not the same you're intelligent people and you are extremely creative people but you're extremely chaotic you're not channeled no one is channeling you all these energies are like a light bulb not like a laser you need to take all this light and make it a laser and then you will succeed no one will defeat you because you are endowed you're very gifted people really honestly this is not you know I said some very difficult things in this interview when I think you're negative I say you're negative you're passive-aggressive you're radioed and when I think you're positive I say positive things as well you're amazing I have never come across I lived in 13 countries and I worked in 52 I have never come across a group of people more talented, creative than this group of people than Macedonians not even Jews by the way Jews are more intelligent Jews are very intelligent I mean there's no no group of people more intelligent than the Jews but not as creative as Macedonians not as creative as Macedonians take this alone do you know creative industries? they're the biggest industries in the world the creative industries IT add to this IT I mean you're so well positioned I mean dampen all the nonsense just focus on these service industries IT outsourcing these then and you will have a brilliant future you'll become rich people absolutely rich people you can also serve as offshore territory for banking for I mean there's so many things you can do and yet for decades everyone is talking about this not only somebody many yes nothing is done nothing is done because you don't dare to dream and because you think that dreamers are not doers I don't know who poisoned your brains only dreamers are doers only dreamers are doers something the population needs to assimilate it's been a pleasure to talk to you thank you for having me thank you very much I hope that this conversation will inspire people thank you that will influence more thinking and we will influence not only Macedonians but friends of Macedonia for a better and brighter future thank you thank you for having me it was a pleasure really it was a pleasure thank you sir thank you