 everybody. Again, we start this evening with our note that you see on screen. And with that, let us dive in. Obviously, and some of this may be new for folks, some of this may be new for maybe a review, but it bears repeating that churches need to be mindful of copyright law whenever your community is gathered either in person, digitally, or both. So any material that is not an original creation of the church, this is a material that has not been composed by your organized choir director or someone on your staff, music, imagery, liturgies, poems, if it's not been composed in your local church, it may be subject to copyright. And as we approach copyright this evening, we approach copyright as a justice issue, because copyright ensures that writers and composers are properly compensated for their work. So in your mind's eye, you may harken back to a more simpler time when you had a church, you had a music program, and you had everyone with a hymnal. Unfortunately, today's licensing requirements exceed the usage model that had been in place for the past 100 years, where each worshiper held a copy of a hymnal, which gave the local church rights to perform and sing a section of music contained in the hymnal. So with that in mind, we have to review on like what is a copyrighted work and how the church has got from, how the church progressed from that method, where if you had a copy of the hymnal or the copy of the book of worship, that you were okay. So again, to use a copyrighted work that will be reprinted, and that means like taking that hymnal if you didn't have enough copies, and you needed to make an extra copy. This even goes for choir directors if they had, if they were short one copy for a soprano, say, and you needed to reprint that. Or now, in this day and age, in the time we find ourselves hymn, you need to broadcast that. You must either obtain written permission from the copyright holder, or obtain a license through a licensing administrator or provider. Now these providers offer pre-packaged licensing plans or bundles, as one license would call them, for a variety of license scenarios on behalf of publishers and artists. So the idea here is that the church pays the licensing provider, and the provider pays the writers, the composers, and the artists. So let's say it's an exchange of rights, it's an exchange of responsibility, and it also makes sure in all of that that the artists get paid for what they create as creators. So we're going to switch screens here again, and we're going to look at the types of licensing types that we have when it comes to licensing providers. Now the first one that is presented is print and reprint. The print and reprint is the most common and familiar to church, pastors, musicians, organists, and choir directors. I've mentioned this before. This, this license grants permission to reprint lyrics from the hymnals and scores to be used in worship guides and bulletins. So when the church migrated from solely relying on a hymnal, and churches began to create worship guides and worship bulletins, that's when this license became important, and that's if you ask most church secretaries, church musicians, this is the one that's most common. The next one, mechanical license, is the license that allows a piece of music to be used in audio form when a choir makes a recording of a concert and offers it as a CD or, or now even as a digital download, so you're required to have a mechanical license to do that. Another type is video synchronization, and the video synchronization license allows a portion of a song, like a backtrack, a back recording, to be added to a video in your worship service. And then the performance license is a type of license that allows for, you know, as it implies, it is a performance for the public performance of a piece of music. And then we get to, we kind of catch up here, then we have the light streaming and podcasting license, and the live streaming and podcasting license is a combination of a print and reprint mechanical and performance license. So it adds, it takes the building blocks of those other licenses that we're showing on the previous pages, and it utilizes them in a way that it keeps the license model affordable for churches and allows, again, the, the transition of license authority from the, and copy and hold copyright from the artist to the church. And then we have the master license. So you wonder, so you wonder, like, how does, you know, you may have heard some of these places that I will mention, the license providers, one license, CCLI, how did they, how do they get to do what they get to do? And what they do is they hold a master license in which they can take and divide subsections off to offer services to the church. So so again, and here we come to licensing providers. We mentioned these already. One of them, the one of the largest is one license. Now one license is a is a provider that will fit sort of squarely on the offerings that are made in the pilgrim, in pilgrim press and the new century hymnal. Not all of the selections that are found in either of the, either of our hymnals are all are all covered. So you will have to go and do a search. As you can see there on the screen, there is a place to search. And make sure that the work that you are planning to, you know, perform during the course of your season or worship service is included in by that provider. Depending on what type of music that you perform in your church, you may also benefit from CCLI, which is has a broader catalog and includes music that is published by BMI. So in that case, a CCL license may be beneficial to you, as well would be CCS or Christian Copyright Solutions. So those those three, the Christian Copyright Solutions, CCLI or Christian Copyright Licensing International, or one license, those are the three main license providers. So so with that in mind, let me come back to my and switch gears. Um, so again, I can't stress enough the if you it's you need to check with the provider the list of songs that you're going to perform for a given season. If they are not listed in any of those providers in some churches that I know, at least the couple that I know in Western Massachusetts in the official tradition have all three. And if they're not in any of those three, then you have to contact the publisher or the artist directly to get copyright permission. So I can't stress that enough. Just holding the license, just to say okay, we purchased one license, we purchased the, you know, the base license. And because we're live streaming, we also purchased what they would call the live stream or stream and podcasting bundle, which is a bundle of the base license, which allows you to take the lyrics that you wouldn't find and not only just, you know, harkening back to our previous point I made several minutes ago, not just to have those, not to duplicate what you see in your for a bulletin, but when you have a I know for a fact when you have a subscription with one license, and you all your music is covered, what you what the light the with the base license allows you to do when I check this with one license. It also allows you to provide lyrics of the piece that you are singing that particular, you know, Sunday in that particular section of your liturgy on live stream. So this makes, and there's a way to do that with with certain equipment where you can push those lyrics up to your live stream, which makes it easier for people to be together, gathered in worship digitally, they don't have to have a bulletin. So know that one license gives you that gives you that opportunity. So the fee structure for one license and CC li is based on your community's average weekly attendance or your ASI. So the, and we'll get to how do you like how do you track that weekly attendance? It's, you know, in a digital in a digital world that we find ourselves and it's not easy, but there is a way to do it. Know that, you know, if you think that you're and they'll give different like, you know, for like 100, I'm just making an example, but they'll say from, you know, or the church that has from from zero to 100 people in worship, that's one, you know, that's one tier. And then from 100 to so on is another tier. If you find that you're between the tier, it's always to go is always to good practice to go up. I don't know if you can regulate that. Let's, let's say you, you know, you're not offering your worship services digitally, but or maybe you are, and suddenly you see this, you know, this really increase in attendance. Remember that it's, it's attendance taken over a broad period of time. So, so again, most of the content found in the new century and pilgrim himnals are, are covered by a one license annual license. But again, you have, you have to check. So the, the next next conversation is one that's important. And that important in that conversation is surrounds reporting both one license and CCLI require you to report on a monthly basis. Those selections that you used during your worship services for that month, it is through your reporting that one license and CCLI can then pay the artists. So again, it's not enough just to have the license and then it's not enough just to, you know, not check to see if the, that the particular piece that you're going to play is included in their database or not, but you also have to report monthly. So that make that forms the bridge that completes it without you reporting. Then there's no way for the artist to get paid. I think there was at one point if I'm not mistaken that CCLI, you didn't have to report, but I think now, now you do, you do have to report. So let me switch back again here from slide view and go to another things that are unique to worshipping in worshipping digitally. And the first is determining what attendance you record on a Sunday by Sunday basis when you offer digital worship. Now, when folks, when you're in hybrid worship, it sort of makes it a little easier because you count the amount of folks that you have in the sanctuary and then you add to those the numbers that you have online. However, like how do you track that? How do you come up with that number? And when we first went into lockdown our way back in, in March, I wonder like how, you know, I kind of kind of scoured YouTube videos after YouTube videos. And I, you know, trying to find an answer of how to do that. And the best way that our church, St. Mark's church in East Long Island found a way to do is to have our cameras positioned near us or it doesn't have to be the pastor doing this, but it could be one of the, one of the folks on the, on the, on the digital team to have the, just take note of what that number is. You'll see it there in the picture right next to the live button. In this case, it's 53. And what I do, our practice at St. Mark's is to take the peak of that and people will, as we all know, there will be times when you'll see people joining and leaving your worship at various times during the actual worship service. And in the digital, in the digital church, that is, that's typical because the, the barrier for entry and the barrier for exit is a lot lower than it is if you have to walk in and out of a church building. But we generally take that highest the number for that platform and what you're looking there on the left side of the screen is a screenshot of Facebook. We use that right at our pray dues at our prayer desks at St. Mark's because we also use that, our devices to interact like we are interacting, we will be interacting tonight through chat and through video, but we use the chat portion of Facebook to take prayer requests and to report. So, so that, so we're, we're always looking at that in fact, for me, it could be a distraction, but so that's my best way of saying, you know, what you could the best way to do that. And when you take that number, so in our case, we have an example here, we usually have about 53 with that that's, you know, we're shipping with us on on Facebook, we'll have about 10 to 12 on YouTube. That's just how our stats on on that work. We'll add those together and we'll and we'll multiply by 1.5 to allow people who are in worship as a family to count them. So there's no real way that we can we can capture that and we kind of know by who's online, given the comments that we're getting in the comment train in the comment stream of who's online. And we know that, oh, you know, Jean's on, you know, we know that, you know, she has three people watching. So we, we, we, you kind of got to know the, you know, you're the folks who are online. But as digital as we also found that as digital goes, as we progress in this journey together, you will start to find, especially as the numbers are increasing as they are, people will start worshiping with you digitally more and more. And some of the folks that you may see on your who are asking for prayers, if you're, you know, if you're interacting like that, you know, in that way on Facebook, you may not know who they are. So know that, you know, you know, at 1.5 is is kind of a general way that we're doing that. If I hear of another way of another metric, and I'm always watching metrics for on Facebook, because I like to use the live number that we're seeing again, our example is 53, because it wants the worship service, the live worship service is over. And let's say your worship service happens to be on 10am on Sunday morning. And now you are on now Wednesday. And now you're seeing 200 300 worshipers. Remember with Facebook, those could be as little as five second views, which doesn't really help when you're trying to determine how many people were on, you know, who attended your worship service. YouTube is a little better. YouTube is will provide a because I'm from New Jersey, I need to I need to talk with my hands here. So YouTube will give you an analytics graph that will allow you to know that what part of the service folks were more, you know, or who are watching. In fact, if you pause Facebook, you'll get the same thing, but YouTube will actually give you numbers associated with that. So so in any of those examples that I that I gave, when it pertaining to church attendance, if I find a better solution, I will make a video and post it for you. The right half of the screen is something that comes up a lot. And that is, and I say a lot, I mean, I'm speaking about my my context in the Episcopal diocese of Western Mass. And it came up a lot in the beginning. Because the couple of the churches that were broadcasting, we're using that same countdown, you know, our live stream will begin shortly. They were using that same countdown in the beginning of the service five minutes up. So it was, you know, 955, we those churches would start their live stream, and then after, you know, at 10 o'clock, it would transition to live worship. And during that time, they had a a audio track that they downloaded that they thought, rightfully, from the YouTube Free Music Library. And even though they were, it was, you know, it was okay to use it. What they found is that other folks were using the same track. And so what happened, the, and I'll put a I'll put a name on it, say Mark's Episcopal Church, for three Sundays in a row, we had, this is when we first started using that countdown, we had a canned audio, you know, backtrack on that on that countdown. And we got this notification, your video is partially muted because it may contain music that belongs to someone else. And we got that you won't get it in an email, you'll get it right on your phone as a notification on your shade on your notification shade, you know, your phone will, you know, will give you and it's you and you usually get this. And we usually got it about seven minutes, 10 minutes after the church services concluded. And maybe that's because that's when we were really paying attention to our phones or not, but there it was. So our person who was in Rob, who's in charge of our streaming ministry at the St. Mark's was like, no, I'm using it. And what and below that message, your video is partially muted, you have two options, you have the option to, to say, okay, keep it muted, or you have the option to contest it and report and say that no, we would like to, you know, this is our actual music, you know, this is we this is where we got it from. And for the first two weeks, we did that. And the third week, it was like, Okay, this is getting old. We know where we got it from. We're still being partially muted. And so we convinced Rob that the best way and here's here's the best practice, have the organist play a prelude on on a variation on whatever they know, and not have it resemble really anything. That's the best way. Because there was another instance where we had where we, you know, we were using music that was in public domain. It was one of our hymns. And we got the same message. And in that Sunday, we said, No, this is we're using this, we have the right to use this. In fact, it was public domain and it and it was on one license, right. And, you know, it came up and we're like, no, we know, we know what the deal is, we know, you know, that we're not wrong here. And so we said, Yes, you know, we're going to, you know, this we are using this properly, you know, and report it that back to them. So that just that's just my limited experience with three congregations. So, you know, I offered that to, you know, not just so it's, you know, it's clear for folks that, you know, even though there was free audio out there, the in our case, the audio the free audio that we were using was used by an exercise organization in India. And they were claiming it. And it was part of their whole their presentation. You know, so, you know, we would get the same, you know, your, you know, the artist, the music that you're that you're part that you're, you know, that you're using the audio that you're using maybe along to somebody else and it says the same, it would say the same thing week after week. So, so I just offer offer that to you. So at this point, oh, and there's another question that I got just today. If we purchase a one license, annual license and digital with live streaming podcasting add on, do I have to purchase an additional one time event license for funerals, weddings, and, and their example, it was a Thanksgiving service. And the answer is no, your annual license allows you to the covers all your services throughout the year for one year. And the key being one year. So technically, you have one year to hold all if you have a repository where you a page where you have all your video technically should be all those should be removed after the end of that one year. So all that in mind, we come now to our time of together where we have our question and answer. Since I did a whole lot of talking, and it would be nice to, you know, regathering community and listen to what may be on your hearts and your minds. Quick question on that last comment. This is Kristen Diamond. My understanding of the seat, we have CC li and we purchased the various licensing for on demand we added, you know, as opposed to being in the sanctuary worship to make sure we're covered. But in the past, we've also wanted to show, you know, not from an event standpoint, like you mentioned funerals, but show movies that were outside of our music licensing, and we had to purchase those were one time. Can you confirm if that's accurate? That is accurate. Yes. Yes, that is accurate. And in fact, there is a separate copyright. I think I think one license provides is either one license or CC li will provide movies. I think it's CC li has done one for us in the past. Right. Yes. Okay. All right. I just know it's a ever moving and evolving area. It is. And that's the that's the takeaway tonight. This stuff always changes. So and I know that when we first started live streaming six or five years ago, no, excuse me, three years ago in the St. Andrews and Long Meadow, the poor organist was like, you know, so, but it was preparation for the time we find ourselves in there. But thank you for that question. So there's, there's a few questions in the chat, Eric, maybe I can read them to you so you don't have to try to scroll. Sure. There was also a question about doing the reporting and you're figuring out the numbers. You account in reporting for on demand replays on like local access TV, right? Do you do a 1.5 multiplier or is there a formula? How do you know how see like in that case, how do you really know how many people are watching? So and I don't believe the the the the the the broadcaster cannot give you those numbers. So I would do yeah, I would add another 1.5 on that, just so you're, you know, it depends on your I guess it would be it would depend on your time slot. So at least again, it's not like a broken record, but at the same works in East Long Meadow, we had an eight o'clock in the morning time slot in our local access cable. I think that might get more traction than if you're of a previous parish that I was associated with was I think our time slot was like 1am. So, you know, I could just kind of use those two to adjust, you know, but I would use 1.5. So Allison was asking if you would clarify, you made the comment about you have to take down the songs after a year when the license expires. Do you have to if you're renewing the license? So that's a sticky. That is a sticky one because there are churches, you know, that keep them up. And it's their belief that if they're renewing their license year after year, doesn't that get them another year? You know, and I think, you know, so I kind of side on that. What I will do is I will check with one license on that. And I will, and when I make this recording available, so both will make the recording available to you all. And in that, in that email, I will put that answer. So I'm going to make a make a note for myself. There's also a question and the folks here actually might even be able to help with us about do we have any idea comparing Facebook to YouTube about where you get flagged more often for your audio Facebook. Okay, Facebook. They're sorry for that's okay. It's just passionate. It was like Facebook Facebook has some like insane algorithm. I it's and it's and I think that the the selection we were playing that one Sunday, it was like it was Bach. And it was like not altered. Like it was like it was Bach. You know, so yeah, they're they they will flag. And they and you know, and they're, I mean, from our perspective, it could seem to be a pain. But really what they're doing is protecting the artist. I mean, you know, it's they they're doing what they need to do. Because imagine imagine if they had a lighter algorithm. And and imagine all the, you know, the terabytes of data that they're getting per second, going through their network, and that they have to scan, I would, you know, if I were them, I would have a pretty, pretty bad, pretty, you know, sensitive algorithm as well. But yeah, Facebook is it. So there's one question about how do you do an attribution statement when you're live streaming on Facebook or YouTube? Yeah, here we go. That is what I should have done. And let me, let me bring that up. So we can continue to take questions and I'll bring that up and then I'll share my screen. Okay. And somebody else is asking about the benefits of each of the licensing companies. And I think I can answer that while you're looking. Generally, it just has to do with what you use the most different companies tend to cover different types of music. So it's better to look in the catalogs to see what kind of music it is that you're you're trying to play and find out which licensing company covers more of that. The pricing on them, I believe, is all pretty similar. Yeah. Do you add anything to that, Eric? No, that's exactly what I would have said. I know that I know I mentioned BMI. I know that that CCLI and CCS cover a lot of works that are, you know, under BMI. Right. So Jay, she said we haven't flagged but not muted on YouTube thus far. And she said we stopped Facebook when they changed their rules. And that's one of the reasons that some churches like my husband's church, for example, which I'm going to pull up here, will have, will stream to three different platforms. They'll stream Facebook, they'll stream to YouTube, and they also stream to a independent provider such as livestream.com. Livestream has been purchased by BIMEO. So it would be BIMEO and Livestream. Let me pull that up right quick. If you ever had the feeling that you forgot something before a presentation, this would be full of them. Somebody who's mentioning also that that CCS license, in addition to the company you were mentioning, did you say BMI, cover ASCAP and SCSAC? Yes. So that covers it. That seems to be more of the contemporary music. Yes. It'll, those providers, again, and you know, we can't, I'm not going to pigeonhole one church or against an over another. But if you, if you have more contemporary music than you would, you know, you would be more, would be beneficial to go to CCLI or CCS. Let me see if I can get this. I'll share my video screen. Okay. We're coming to the end of Grahams. And that's not Grahams. So in the meantime, there's a question. Carolyn Gillette is a current hymnist who uses tunes in the public domain. I paid Carolyn for use of her hymns, but do I also need to worry about the tunes? I would say yes. Well, I would, I would say this, make sure that the hymns that she is using are, and that's my understanding that they are in the public domain, correct? Right. That's what that question is. Yes. So that if they are, if you know that they're in the public domain, then I would say you don't have to worry about it. Let's see. And another question. Do any of the licensing companies cover instrumental music? So I had a, excuse me. Not just sacred, but classical. Right. Yes. So there has been, so before I go over to that. So the folks, the person that I spoke to at one license said that the publishers of instrumental music have been slow to make a connection and offer their, their works to these licensing providers. Since the pandemic has, you know, brought us to where we are now, they are now making up for a lost time with great expediency, as he put it. But you, he says you will find gaps. You will find gaps. And, and he's, and he knew that I was giving this presentation. And he said before Thanksgiving, he's like, you know, just tell them that we're working, we're working with them as fast as we can. But there, there, you will see gaps. So thank you to Kristen. She posted in the chat a link to a document on Google that compares the different licensing companies, or that compares CCI and CCS. So thank you for that. Yes. Thank you. Here are my two screens. This is, this is called, we need a, I need a hardware based switcher. So Allison says we've been flagged on YouTube multiple times. We cut the song once and have disputed it in all the other cases. Yeah. Bear with me. You want me to keep reading questions or keep going? Kristen asks, and you, you all can, can unmute and ask as well, if it's easier. Kristen asks, what do we need to be aware of when embedding YouTube videos into worship and or on web pages? My understanding is the video, if the video allows for sharing or covered. If the video allows for sharing. Meaning there's a share button in the bottom of the YouTube video. Yeah. That allows you to grab the embed code, for example. Right. So re, re, re do that question again. Resay that question again. So for example, I'm, I have an advent calendar for, for COVID, right? It's an online interactive advent calendar. And some of the days have embedded like, oh, come on, come on manual as a YouTube video on that blog post. I Googled and I researched and it was a kind of a squishy area, but by and large it said that if that sharing feature is enabled on that YouTube video, you can use that embed code on your webpage. Because essentially it's taking it back to the video. But I don't, it said it was a squishy area. So I just want to make sure and recover. I do know that. So there was a couple. So let me reframe that slightly. And this may answer your question. There are videos that third party companies, such as igniter media or the, the, there's another one. I know igniter igniter is one of the, one of the larger ones. And they produce video, what they call many movies for, for churches. And they specifically say that you, you cannot restream it. So although there has been a some latitude given for, for the pandemic. So in other words, you can't take the video. So if you use their video within the scope of your worship service and you, and you used it as part, so there's, you know, there's, there's a front end, there's a back end on, on the, on the worship service. And you used the video somewhere within that worship service. That's allowable. Because that video under the user agreement with igniter media, the video can be used within the, for that, in that use case, you cannot take, and I'll just turn that off because we're not getting to the, those credits grant. My husband's church runs a full credit at the end of his worship services and I can't find them. But I will, I will actually put the, put the blur image in the, in the reply email that I send out when we make the video or the webinar available as a recording. But anyway, the, so if you're, if igniter says you're going to take that video and you want that to, and you're just going to take it and upload it to Facebook, that's not allowed. If you're going to take the, so if you're doing something similar, if you're taking the video with the person produced and using it solely, I think that wouldn't be allowed. But the best thing is contact the person who made the video. Yeah. And I've tried some of that and it's kind of gone to dead space. So in, in the effort to cover, I'm sure I've credited and certainly linked, you know, linked back where I needed to, but and not altered or it's not downloaded video, it's still playing on YouTube, but an iframe on the website. Right. Yeah. So I know, I know as a, as a web developer that it's always been considered okay to, to take an embed code from YouTube and put it on your website. I mean, you do run the risk that that video might go away or that they might swap it out or something. Yeah. But that's allowable. I think what's trickier is if you start embedding the video, say in a live stream, and then you record the live stream, now you're recording the video. That's a good point. Thank you very much. That makes it very clear. Right. Thank you. I did find the, the the verbiage. And so it, what we do here at the congregational church of Summersville is say what we're saying here. Kim Hems used in this worship service are published in the New Century hymn of my pilgrim press and used by permission. Other music performed during this worship service are used under license of one license.net. And then you must put your license number. That's the, that's the format that I, so the important part there is other music performed during this worship service is covered under one license.net and the number. So Deborah shares, we were flagged on Facebook for spoken word. Apparently our lay reader who was reading the gospel had a voice whose timber matched that equity factor and the algorithm caused the recording to be pulled. We appealed and after reviewing Facebook released the recorder. That's difficult. Like I'm telling you, you know, thank you for sharing that. I mean, that just brings home the point that, you know, they are their algorithm is. Jane shares our church has used a good bit of music from convergence music project. The CMP licensing works without anything else. These are original works for anthems and special music and sometimes same type of music. So that would be a good resource for us. I'll save the chat. Thank you. Thanks for that. So I'm sorry. No, somebody else said we've been including our actual license number as part of our credits at the end of our worship. Is that a good thing to do and necessary? I think you just answered that. I think one license requires it. One license requires that number to be included somewhere in the service. And I think at least for the folks that are, you know, that you saw listed there on that broadcast, on that worship service. First, you know, these, the folks who are in that service are younger and so they like to see their name on screen. So it becomes like a, it kind of becomes like a thing for them. So, Sarah wrote, we include this message in the prelude slides and again at the end of the service and also site specifics on the first slide of each song permission to stream podcast music and the service obtained from one license. Yep. Since number that you can also do it that way. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thrilled at the participation and the questions. So there was a question about, do you call out each individual song him or prelude with the artist and publication date on the attribution? I wouldn't, because remember you're reporting you as part of your responsibility is to report and there you go line by song by song line by line. If it makes, so let's say this, if it makes you feel comfortable doing that, then continue to do that if that's what you've been doing. And Steve asks, and this is a big, a big question for copyright. Is there a distinction between recorded and non-recorded services? Yes. Expand on that? Yeah, like recorded or recorded or live services at the church that the church is producing? Well, well, I think I know one, you know, the question has come up some about, so if you're streaming a service out on Zoom, is that different than if you then record that stream and post it? I think the same rules apply. If the, if the, if you are, if you are mechanically, can again go back, goes back to the mechanical, if you're mechanically distributing and then sharing that and performing that, even though it's digital, if you're performing that again, yes, it would, it would, I would follow the same protocol that you would use if you were, if you were live streaming. So yes, if you're, if you're, if you're in Zoom and then you're, you know, if you're distributing afterwards or during, yes. And so even if you're, so even if you're doing, even if you're, I would even go as far as, if you're doing Zoom worship, make sure you have the podcasting and live streaming bundle. So that was Steve Griffin who asked that and I'm not sure he's, that is, oh, there you are. I didn't know if that helped Steve or if you wanted to say more. Yeah, no, that answered my question. Okay. Let's see. Sarah asks, would any of these license cover any kind of artwork or spoken word, et cetera, or something else? Yep. Yeah. So I believe one license, I know CCLI also I think has music and art. But also apart from these licensing, you, if you're using artwork, be sure that the artwork that you're using, you have copyright permission from the artist to, you know, to use. Again, I'm thinking back to the artists, you know, not on, not on Unsplash, but on something like like Igniter, where they, that's this company will, you know, provide churches with stock photography made specifically for use within a worship service. So lower thirds, scripture backgrounds, that sort of thing. You have to check, you know, again, because pandemic they're allowing that, you know, allowing their, their to work to be extended to live streaming, but their work was originally not intended for live streaming. It was intended to be used to aid in, again, they come from a different, you know, tradition than ours, but theirs was primarily to assist churches who project using a projector in a house using in the worship setting. So our church is in the process of developing a photo bank, collected of images from church members that way. We don't have to worry about that. Do we still need to cite that even though we've collected them in house and everyone's just like put it in the bank, don't worry about person to person? I would, I would say like, to protect the church, I would say, you know, images used, you know, and have the whoever took the whoever took the the image, the shot, whoever created it. Because again, you have a, you have a pool of, of, of creators. Okay. Well, that, that would help later too, if somebody stole the picture from you, that you can, you can clarify where it came from. Yeah. Like, for example, we had, there was a situation I knew that I heard of where a poet is we mentioned spoken word. And there was a poem that was read. And this particular artist, this writer has bots that scan for their work. And, you know, it's, I think it's done through a service. And so, you know, they, I'm not saying that the church needs to do that, but but yeah, it's protecting, you know, at least put it, putting an acknowledgement on it that it is belongs to the churches is not a bad thing. So we've, we've run out of questions in the chat. Does anybody else want to say something? Oh, there's a message. Handbell recordings. Yeah, I think that falls under, that would fall under like instrumental recordings. And I think if you looked at a nod, I can't see you all, but not if it's like, you know, if you, if you see this gap, you know, of things that are provided for handles and you click and you look and you're like, oh, I'm not seeing that. That's where that would, you know, they cover some stuff, but they don't cover a lot of it. So that was, I'm going back like two churches again. I'm just, that was in response to Martha's comment in the chat about getting permission for handbell recordings. She's saying the publishing department department at Jeffers Handbell supply is helpful. Oh, okay. They are, they act as agent for many publishers. And if they can't grant permission themselves, they will refer you on to the proper publisher, all the contact information. Oh, nice. I just had this done yesterday for some solo recordings. Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And Martha shared that email address, that email address is in the chat. If anybody needs that for a handbell choir, we'll grab a copy of the chat. So, and it's possible some Sarah writes some one license covers some songs. Well, and Jeffers would pass you on to one license if you were asking about something that was covered that way. Great. Thank you. Anybody else have comments or questions or, or wonderings? Jane is. Yes, I have a question. Go ahead. Clip art and backgrounds for, for videos that I produced the clip art I use as part of our churches, clip art paid clip art library is my need to cite that or. And you're speaking of the you're using clip art that the church published that you're using in your bullet in your Sunday bulletin that type of stuff that would be available for the Sunday bulletin I'm using that in when I make the lyric videos for the hand. Okay. I would reach out to the clip art folks. Okay. Right or read the read whatever the terms are that that is it a subscription or a web subscription. I'll check that out. Yeah. Thank you. So I think the the the idea is when in doubt, call them, you know, contact them. Do others have questions questions? We're coming on eight o'clock. So it might be, you know, the witching hour when people get tired. I don't know what that's about at all. There's a couple thank yous in the chat. So thank you. You're quite welcome. What I will do now is I will put up my massive that I'm just full of surprises tonight to put up my contact information. So thank you all for being here. Yeah. I'm going to mention how grateful I am that Eric is on the staff and say send your questions to Eric. This is always such a gray squishy area that it's difficult. It is. And we're all kind of learning as we go. That's right. And as you see my contact information is on screen as I see heads nodding down to right in the record. And we will post this recording and we'll keep adding copyright resources to the conference website as we find them. So feel free to check those out. And if you all don't mind, we'll be emailing you the next time we're doing a webinar like this so that you can you can come again. That's right. That'd be great. All right. Thank you. So the next webinar that I will be, I'm thinking will be in, will be in video format first. So I'll make a video available where you all could watch it. And then we'll have a Zoom session like we are having now where we just chat so that we can really, really dig in without. You don't get to hear me for 20 minutes about first. We get our discussion can actually be brought in and we could build more community that way. At least that's my idea. But thank you all. Thank you all for coming out tonight. Thank you for joining and gathering. Yes, thank you. And best of luck as you go through Advent with your own worship. Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Tiffany. Yes, no worry. Thank you, Marilyn. Good night, everybody. Good night. Thanks, everyone. Take care.