 So do we have any additions or modifications to the agenda? Then would somebody move to approve? To approve. Right. Seconded. By questioner, so we know, significant questioner. Lush, all those, any discussion? All those in favor, please say aye. Any opposed? That passes unanimously. And the minutes from August 12th. Somebody puts ahead a chance to review those. Move to approve. Move to approve by commissioner Seguino. Seconded. Professor, commissioner Kovash, any discussion? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Great. And then I think we're ready to move on to public forum, but also want to say, I think this is maybe, and I can be wrong because I missed the August 12th meeting. I'm not mistaken, but I think that this is the first one where we've got Kevin on. Is that true? So I know you've been on the police mission for a while, but welcome to the joint commission, right? So I'm not sure if it's presumably maybe ending, but it's here. And with that, we move to public forum. And the way that we do this, because it's committee, as opposed to city council meeting, folks can speak either now or if they have any particular questions or comments on any of the specific items they can also speak on those items. So happy to do public forum now if any of the attendees are wishing to speak. I do see one hand raised. Jeff, I'll go ahead and allow you to talk. Great. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, I can. OK, yes. Thanks for putting this meeting on. I'm the chair of the Church Street Marketplace Commission, and I'm not sure if I should speak now or later, but I'll speak now. You know, I think you all know that we continue to deal with many issues on the marketplace. They get worse and worse. The shoplifting is absolutely out of control down here. Merchants reporting daily thefts. It's really disconcerting. The open alcohol containers continue to march up and down the street, even in the cold weather. For some reason, we can't get our arms around how to eliminate that. We clearly need a greater police presence on the marketplace. I mean, when this whole effort started, where everybody was a little timid to say we need the police on the street, I'm not timid at all. We need law enforcement to down here. 10 years ago, we had an officer assigned to downtown and it was great. And everybody knew the officer and everybody wonders, well, why didn't we continue that? It makes life feel much safer. And this is not just Church Street, it's all downtown. I mean, I think we could all admit that City Hall Park, if you looked around, you would find people drinking constantly all summer long. And it's just the word around town, or the word around Chittenden County is don't go downtown. It's more and more and more you hear that. So I think I'd really like to see the marketplace involved with your committee. I'm not sure if that's doable the way you're set up, but clearly our voice needs to be heard as you figure out how to police in the future. So with that, I'll sit back and listen. Thank you. Thank you, Jack. I don't see any other films. We will turn to Item 4, which is the future of the joint committee discussion. And I think that this also specifically involves how to move forward with the report that was commissioned by the joint committee, which was completed a couple of months ago, which is the CNA report. And at our last public safety meeting, Jane, Karen, and I had a discussion on how we would like to move that work forward. And I don't know knowing that we need to do it in line with the police commission because a lot of the work is revolving around too well, but also not necessarily wanting to use just this forum, especially because if you wouldn't invite any other kind of person that's to be part of that conversation, we thought it would get a little bit unfeelty if we could have it in the room. So I don't know how many of you know, but the proposal that we came up with was to have this discussion in public safety, but to have two representatives from the police commission join. And then in addition to that, to have one representative of the Market Place Commission, I think we said, and then two representatives of local activist groups, which we thought we'd have one more focused on racial justice, the Montvichel Justice Alliance, and then one on focused on mutual aid. So food, not violence, or one of those organizations. And then potentially, and I'm actually remember, an apology isn't looking a bit Karen and Jane. We said maybe also one representative from the fire board. Yeah, that was great. So that's our proposal for how to move this forward. And we'd be happy to hear thoughts and feedback. The second thing that we already delivered and also that's the composition. The second thing we deliberated on was meeting weekly kind of on a semi-weekly basis starting in January. And again, looking at Karen, I didn't take notes. Karen, can you tell us when? Thank you. Sure, sure. Well, you've done a great job of laying it out. We decided that we wanted, of course, I wanted to bring this to the Joint Committee to all of you police commissioners and see how you felt about it. What we had agreed to, the three of us was to have the meetings to, there are nine sections in the CNA report and to try, although we know it is a laudable and fairly maybe a little bit of an overwhelming goal, but we had thought of trying to be able to accomplish one section at each meeting, trying to keep within the resolution of being able to have an interim report to the council by the end of January and the last meeting of the council in January is on January 31. So nothing like the last possible day, which is great. And to have go in a linear fashion of sections 1, 2, 3, and 4, and do those on January 4, the 11th, the 18th, and the 25th. There are Tuesdays in January. Our staff person, who's Jared Pellerin, has secured a space for us on those days. And as Zariah said, we're hoping to get to police commissioners and certainly have heard from Jeff Nick about the desire for the marketplace to be involved and wanted to have a marketplace commissioner at those meetings, as well as the others that Zariah had mentioned as well. And regarding the administration, because the resolution says that we're working in collaboration as well with the administration, is to have, depending on which week we're talking about and which area of the report that we're talking about would be to have an expert from the administration, whether they're from BPD, or HR, or some other area of the city, to talk with us and gain input on their perspective on the recommendations and the report. Thank you. And if Jane or Zariah, please fill in the blanks of whatever I've left out. Now, I think we've talked enough and hopefully talked also long enough that folks have had a chance to reflect and happy to take any feedback from any of the commissioners. That sounds really interesting. Really sounds very useful. The one thing I would mention is that the police commission meetings were on Tuesday nights and it's the fourth Tuesday of the month. And so perhaps for that week, you could have the meeting on a different day. It's funny. We were hoping to avoid having to do that. And I clearly did not know that you're, so in other words, what you're saying is that your last meeting or that your meeting in January is on the 25th? Yes. That's funny because I think we even looked up when your meetings weren't so close to slip bias. So I think either skipping that week or then continuing on in February or finding another date. I mean, as I might just say, I'm going to ask the chair of the commission, but what do you think would be a huge hassle to change the fourth week for the Public Safety Committee that we would change the police commission meeting to Wednesday night that would be something like that? I was wrong about that. I know I was on the meetings. My schedule is about three years. I've been booked out two years. I thought that we had as what time per year? 6 to 8. Well, I guess we were thinking, I don't know if we were thinking of starting at 5. Karen, is that true? I think we had compromised, Ryan. And although we certainly could make it 5, I think we compromised and planned on 5.15. 5.15, yeah. Yeah, to like 7.15. I'm glad I wrote down all of these decision points so that I can report back on that. We are very big. The three of us are very big on finding common ground and compromising. And that was a good example. Are we settling on that Wednesday then? So 29? Two of them. You could move in our potential to make data at 6.30 and then just close our meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Any other thoughts other than that come on Tuesday? So what did you decide? Which one do you think we should change? Oh, sorry. Djibout said that he thinks that they can potentially change the meeting or just make it a little later that night. So they will get back to us, but it should work out that we have it up to every two months we stay. OK, great. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. Can I ask what would be done with these meetings? We would discuss the report and then talk about a timeline for implementation of recommendations. What would be exactly the focus of the meetings? Yeah, and I can look at your answer as well. But I think we assume that because we're doing one a week that we would both get to anything that we thought was missed or have any context for the meeting, which is also part of the purpose of the administration. But then I think getting to like, what is the timeline for one of the recommendations which are responsible for reporting back and so forth? Karen, I don't know if you have a different vision. No, I think that's true. I mean, and quite honestly, there may be some recommendations in the report that for whatever reason we either feel or not really right size for Burlington or something that just may not be a priority for us at the time. And I think that's what the council is looking for us to discuss and bet these and figure out whether or not there's something that we really do want to move forward with. I mean, the other thing just to mention and not to scare anyone off, because we hope that there will be two commissioners that certainly will want to do this, is that it is going to require a certain amount of homework, reading, really, really reading the information in advance so that we can come forward with real substantive work in the two hours that we have, because some of these sections are pretty lengthy. Are you looking for volunteers now? I, up to you, I feel like I'm looking at Chabu and Sherin on how they want to do it. If you want to do this via email or if you want to do this now, as long as we don't need to know now, I think as long as folks have decided by the next two or three weeks, that works for us. I'm happy to volunteer. We have one volunteer right there. I thought you said. I think she said, I'm happy to volunteer. I was going to give a question about what's going on within the January meeting, so I can tie this all together and get back to you in the next couple of days. Great. Happy great. We don't need to decide anything this evening. We'll leave that to you. So could I ask a detailed question? Apologies if I understand it. So I see 10 sections. It's skipped nine. I think number one through 10, but there's one nine. I'm not mistaken. So I don't know. I'm looking at it in actually nine is community engagement. 10 is the implementation part of that. So I see 10 of page six of the report. Oh, it says there are nine sections, but we're actually 10. So just curious, are you going to do two sections a week, something like that? We were planning on doing one section a week. I was under the impression that there were nine. It sounds like we need to speak for an extra week. Another week. And also, if we end up not finishing a section in one week, we might have to have another meeting. So yeah, we had this debate for a little bit, but it seems to still have got to be a conclusive answer. There are two questions and also just want to be ended on scheduling, but also on composition of books. I don't mean to be back happy to give up. We can do it right along. So, Raya, I was just going to say, I wasn't on the committee, but it seems like a similar format to the committee that I know Commissioner Grant was on. And I suspect others and apologize. I don't know exactly. And Chair Gommage. And that seemed to work well. But they can correct me if I'm wrong. So it sounds like a good plan for getting through it. Oh, you mean the committee to review policing policies? Right. That's sort of how you attacked it, right? Was going topic by topic, meeting by meeting. Yes, but I would not use that as a guide. I personally felt that long story, anyone who wants to know can shout out to me. But I felt there were things that could have worked better and provided more meaningful work. Thank you. Yeah, I second what Commissioner Grant said. Yeah, I actually came up with a little bit following the model that I realized did not include a place in which I retrospect, but the school resource officer task force, which meant we played for quite a few months. I thought was very effective. There was more homework associated with it than I typically see on committees. But I think that model worked very well. I think Karen's a great person to chair that. I think he was living along and assigned us to do things. So yeah, I'm hoping this will be a productive piece of everyone's time. And the last thing that I want to say about this kind of speaking to the wider future of the joint committee is that I'm hoping I feel like one of the things that came out of this that was good was that the city council and the police commission started having more conversations, which I think had been lacking because I feel like. And I mean, I think some of this has been self determined now that the police commission with you before was unclear what your role was. And I just move forward on forging defy redefining your role without us. But I think continue to keep that conversation open will be good. So I'm hoping to some extent that the two, whatever we call those liaisons, volunteers that that will be more permanent and that even afterwards through this report, they can continue to have that quarterly, whatever it is, meetings with the police commission along with somebody from the choir board to have a continued dialogue about collaboration as opposed to just on this report. Then unless any other questions, I'm going to assume that this will be the last meeting of the joint committee unless I hear dissent. Great. Then the only thing that we didn't address that the city council assigned to us was the equitable sharing program, which I know we just had a very difficult time. But just to summarize where I think we left things off is we got kind of a little bit more of an understanding of equitable sharing and what it is, where is it and how that fits to the Vermont context from my staff member at the time, Audrey. And we also got some data that Sherin found for us in collaboration with the acting police chief and someone else whose name I don't remember, what agency they work from. It's with the US Attorney's Office, the federal government. Great. And it seems like since then this, I think the city council also got an update of this year's equitable sharing program that did have a little bit more information in it. And so I guess if this is the last meeting, do we want to have any other discussion on this today? And if it's not, do we want to have another discussion at another time? And if it is, I guess what do we want to report back to the city council? Do we have a recommendation? We just want to say this is a bigger thing that we're not going to make a decision on our folks' thoughts. But, Sherin. My sense is, but I can't say I spent a lot of time with it, but my sense is that the report that the chief submitted this year filled in some of the gaps in our information, right? Of knowledge that we had, questions about what the case is where I could be mistaken as a city councilor, you'd be in a better position to judge that. But my sense was to having more information about the individual cases would help individuals. And so maybe the thought is that if there is an issue with the data that he's providing the cases where it's being applied, then it can be back on the table. I agree with that because I know that I had a lot of questions and it just wasn't clear. Like there were some specific cases that were brought up as examples. And they were, I guess, valid examples for lack of a better word to say, well, this is things that we've actually did or we've shared as a result of these cases, but they couldn't eliminate the possibility of certain types of other cases being eliminated where people were either found not guilty or in some cases not even charged with the crime, which we know at a national level is an ongoing issue where people have to fight to get money back because it was improperly taken. I think we are in this moment of reform of policing. And so I think it's important to consider this more in more depth. And if I might, I'd just like to share with you an experience that I was involved in with this equitable sharing. And that was a case in St. Albans in which the defense attorney called me because her client had been involved in a drug case and the St. Albans police had seized $8,000. And so in the plea agreement, she proposed, the attorney proposed that that $8,000 be used for training on racial bias. And she called me to ask me how that might be used. And I called Brandon Del Pozzo. And in fact, at that time, Chief Del Pozzo put together an implicit bias training that included Chittenden County police. So I think it's an interesting way to think about equitable sharing about actually having some say about how those funds are actually applied, for example. I am new to this topic. So if I'm incorrect at understanding it, feel free to correct me, but assuming that I am clear about what it is, I would just say, I think it's important for us to think about and that there are some innovative things we might do with interventions of the program like that. Those are all excellent points. I think one of the things that we struggled with while we were discussing equitable sharing is that none of us really had one the information that we needed, which to Sherry's point, I think we got a little bit more with the Chief's last report. And then two, the expertise to propose the alternative because it also seemed, you know, folks didn't like the idea of just stepping out of it and this program continuing, and that's just not getting kind of Burlington share, but then also didn't like the potential misaligned incentives, things like that. So I think I don't know how we feel about maybe just adding, seeing that it's a deeper conversation, adding this to something the police commissioner looks on later on or that, you know, with this joint body, if we want to add that to week 11, where we maybe got time to align with somebody who knows more about it than any of us do. But so I'll basically say, if you don't have any findings on this and either public safety or joint or sorry, where the police commission should take this up in the future, if someone with the resources needed to make kind of the forum decision on it. Hi, this is Milo. I think I'd like it to stay with the new committee formation. We're dealing with a lot on the police commission right now. So I don't, I'm curious to hear what the other commissioners think. Thank you. I agree with that. Oh, sorry. I agree with that. I was Milo. I know right now we're kind of undertaking a review of a lot of our directives right now as it is. And that's where we're being pushed back a little bit too. So that's on our plate. I think that'd be like a bit more than true. See how we won't be once in a month right now. Great. Karen, I assume this is chair of the Public Safety Committee for that question. My apologies. We have a racial equity training that's starting in about one minute. And I'm trying to get on to that. I apologize. What did you say? That I think police commission of the police commission has noted a preference for the Public Safety Committee being the ones to look into this. OK, well, do the other two members are the other two members OK with that? Yeah, I think either doing it potentially was later on after the CNI reporters a week after that. I'm fine with that. OK, all right. Great. Sure. Of course. There's no deadlines on it. OK, all right. I don't have anything else. So unless you mentioned any members of the public that wanted to speak on any of those topics or if anybody has anything else. So can I just ask, is this the last official like drum roll? Is this the last official meeting of the Joint Committee? Is that a yes? Yes, it is. OK. So given the fact that that is the case and I'm assuming that no one is going to object. Just want to all that. I'm one of the Jane and I are the two newer members of the Joint Committee because we came on because of public safety. You know, there are there are lots of things that are asked of city councillors. Usually one of them is not to chair a committee. They're first a committee of this nature. They're first year on the council, but just wanted to acknowledge the amazing work that Soraya and that many of the police commissioners who have been and gone the distance on this have committed to this effort. And you all did a great job. Thank you all so much. And thank you very, very much for your time. Thank you, Karen. And really, yeah, it's been great to work with these commissions. I really do hope I hope that becomes a regular conversation. Thank you all so much for bearing with me through my learning curve. Thanks, everyone. So unless there is any dissent ever would have said that I would turn the meeting at six thirty four. Thank you. Have a good evening, everyone. Hi, everybody. Take care, everybody.