 Oh, yeah That is hot, baby. Yeah, I have nothing to say Do a rap battle Boyfriend He writes himself Yeah, that's what and then you know famous artists record Yeah, but you don't get a role Yeah, you sell you sell your beat and then you know Drake or whoever makes a gazillion dollars on your hit and all you got was what you got paid for But that's what he does for living Because you I mean that's you know, he's not to that level yet I mean if you I suppose if you like wrote the lyrics and wrote the sock I mean, you know, there's a home. He just kind of does the beats and the basic Whatever Municipalities and really honestly ever since It's always good to figure it somebody else Everybody Everybody and their brother And been here and so I missed that one meeting and then you all get went and scheduled one on Thursday No, I've got it. Just they just went up in time to go with it. They're actually posted They're all of about one Two Not a very exciting looking election we've got coming up that is exactly the way that is how it works here It's in cycles. I thought you already did It's the controversy that keeps on giving I don't know And We are gonna get started real just a couple minutes past 6 30 so So I'm gonna call the meeting to order first thing is to review and approve the agenda my understanding is that from the Advertised agenda there. We are removing the zoning fixes, which was item 7 And our I'd like to propose that we add two items to the end one Discussion likely an executive session regarding pending litigation just And a second one dealing with the personnel Any further changes the agenda We'll consider the agenda approved without objection So general business and appearances, this is a time for Anyone from the public to address the council on a matter. There's otherwise not on our agenda And I'm gonna take this opportunity to just say I think the outside doors should be or the one in the back Anyway, now it should be open. So that's that's good Any comments from the public, okay? Hello All right, so we're gonna move on to the consent agenda. Is there a motion regarding the consent agenda? We got battling seconds Okay further discussion about the consent agenda Right all in favor, please say aye opposed Motion carries all right city infrastructure, so this is a Actually an item that was requested by councilor Hill as we are had some Recent water main issues and so love to just chat about where we're at Still on your feet. I said water everywhere. He said it before but please do pass on our Steve gratitude to your department It certainly goes to all the people of the department including the gentleman in front of us Tom was Almost 18 hours one of these nights personally Was there Yeah, there's certainly all hands on The Hopefully that's over I Just quickly to run through the year On average, you know, we're in the mid-30s from 2013 2015 We jump back Like Tom said this isn't necessarily an unusual year and the number of weeks but this year happened to be I think the public So briefly just the just some of the causes of the water leaks that we have experience One is cross-action. So this this graph The red line is the You can see Another issue we experience is Stop or start Quite high for And get these pressure waves for our system Starting at a high pressure And the third that we've really seen in the last five years Play soiled out around the leak out for testing The ductile iron that was installed Turns out that that's very susceptible to corrosion Is that because of the material itself or for the But I'm not sure Yeah, but they are performing better So we're now switching to And the downside is it is more expensive But we have done one project last year Do those have warranties on them There are some And sorry about the it's HDPE pipes that you're using now is that right They're flexible. Do you do you know how long they stay flexible? I have the idea that plastic gets More brittle over time You know one thing they look at when they're testing pipe I Think a key takeaway from all of this talk about the different Dr. Liar and all that is that it's not necessarily the oldest pipes that are failing I think that's one of the things we heard about these old pipes that we haven't replaced But it was it's a particular type of oriented pipe. That was actually some of which we put in 30 years ago thinking at the time that was the best thing to use that was what standard Nelson So one of the things that one of the comments that I have gotten from people after that You know the series breaks Was you know, what is the city doing to be proactive about it? And I know you know, we have been Like with Northfield streets and I think Harrison a couple late last year or the year before or so You know, we've been sort of preemptively going in there and you know Doing some of the lines. Where can people expect us to be proactive this coming? I know I know the answer to this question, but just so that we can talk about it So people know that we are planning on Fixing some of these lines before they before they have broken Where we're looking at for the coming season I So There is the water system master plan Some other projects, but for example, he stayed street several of the leaks on these graphs are he stayed school In fact, we still have a minor leak on the state. We haven't found the actual location of it And that's tougher in the winter Is the frost and doesn't always surface? so So he stayed street is part of our reconstruction plan Presently proposed in 2022 There's a lot of sewer separation work That one street That was our really a first major leak of the season in November and Was the last week of this series of leaks? That was another early morning project, so that's That's one that we're really hoping to get If we can but it takes a couple years to put these projects together There is state funding assistance in the food control grant that we're applying for So there's quite a bit of preparation work to put a project together like that Ashley and then I hope to move on soon So that was actually one of my questions it seems like so And then we had one on East State over the summer we had one at the upper end almost in the same place Was that maybe December I'm assuming it's on this and then we had to on lower East State is that right this this winter? So I'm just I'm curious to see I know I know that that's been in the works for a while And I know it slated for 2022, but I'm just curious if there's any sort of Flexibility and redetermining and and what kind of support you would need for the council to allocate or or if there's a way to sort Of address that because that seems like a constant Problem area it sounds like there's still something that we just can't find where because of the weather but I'm just curious if that if there is a plan to re-evaluate the timing on on some of those more critical areas Well, we're starting to talk about some ideas How we can Again Takes correct me if I'm wrong a couple of years to put that project together There's planning. There's design the survey this permits Two-year project And I know you already said this but just to remind everyone with that because this isn't just a fixing a water means water sewer CSO and a complete repeal of the road So it's a major it's a smaller version of the Northfield Street project that we did and reminder that we're going to be Upgrading our sewer plant or wastewater plant, which is a very major project is going to take a huge amount of curts time Just on that coming up. So but we are talking about some funding Systems to maybe speed this up We're looking at the clean the state revolving loan fund which has a series of engineering steps You have to follow to get eligibility. So just to get through that process So, yeah, we will bump it up if we can Couple of thoughts and questions one is I was a little bit concerned about The loss of water for some of our larger customers who were located up high specifically you 32 and national life And I wanted to know if we kind of thought about Doing the outreach to them about the work We are taking to make the steps we are making to make sure that doesn't continue to happen because I know the 32 had to close for a couple days because of the well water notice and the loss of pressure and I have no Knowledge that they're they're considering this are thinking about this But if I was in that position of a large customer Up high who might feel like my service from Montpelier had become less reliable I might start thinking about what my alternatives are and so we certainly don't want to lose those customers And so I think it would be good for us to kind of do some proactive outreach and say hey We realize this was an inconvenience. This is what we're doing to make sure it doesn't happen again Well, we had a similar situation on North Hill Street with Westview Meadows Conversations with them Yeah Spoken actually throughout the the Elm Street Short-term shut down we had trouble because it's such a large water main Shutting that down completely. They actually had water back or restored by So we have been communicating And I I notice that the there's text in here about how the boil water notices have changed But and I'm not really sure how that impacts some of those large customers if there is a boil water notice They can't you know, can they have for example head of school open that sort of thing So maybe that's part of what's happening here is that because we we are now issuing more of the boil water notices I think that's a choice of the schools in a Montpelier school stayed open I don't know. I know you 30 to was close to David break I had heard that it was just because they couldn't flush toilets the first day. Yeah, but then I don't know about the second day So we also just didn't have a lot of communication during the water breaks with our water plan Well, we also have to be no talk to them about sampling Just one note on what we're doing to Sort of hone in on boil water notices. So they're required when pressure drops the system below 20 PSI we don't have a Pressure monitor on gala some help. We don't have a gauge that tells us what the pressure is that we can read remotely and trend So we're gonna you guys will be seeing a proposal soon to add that there's a an old booster station That's heated and enclosed Halfway up the Allison hill Pretty economically install pressure And we'll know Hopefully that will help to reduce the number Because we can't now verify So that would be a perfect sort of thing to communicate with them and say we realize that this was an issue First thing we had to do This plan together We've got a debriefed after all of this And so I hear what you're saying, but we need to first come up with a plan and then understand they actually work We have spoken with Another consultant as well to consultants one of a systems engineer for our plan for some of these remote readers Some of the options we're looking at which is described in this report, but We have a Kind of a shock absorber idea Pressure relief system so when these hammers there could be a fire that causes a tremendous search a surge of water And then it shut down abruptly cause that pressure wave Nelson Street because it was such a catastrophic loss of water Shut it down quickly and they felt a 10 psi Pressure wave up at the plant. So one of the things that I'm looking at is the two Boosters pump stations Dialing those down from a 20 psi down to a five or it would relieve that pressure so learned a lot from this And I think we have some good things we can do Um Two other things I wanted to know One is you know you talked a little bit about funding and I just want to remind this council because you may not have The new folks might not have thought about this much that how important it is to make sure that we charge all of this Water work to the water fund to ensure that the water rate payers Including folks like the state and some other folks who don't pay taxes Although they do pay Pilot instead That they are fairly and fully charged for those costs because this is our mechanism of making sure that our water customers Do pay for the cost and some of those water customers are the very large customers So just to flag that for fellow counselors and then the other thing I wanted to think about a little bit was my understanding is that some of these kind of extreme temperature fluctuations going back and forth that those cause breaks more frequently and So I've been thinking a little bit about you know with climate change is this something you know we have our plan and you know our how we're gonna Be addressing all these issues, but do we need to be thinking about Putting a little bit more money towards infrastructure in order to address these issues And maybe this is a real cost of climate change and we need to take that into our city-state planning So not something to decide tonight, but just something to flag Great for the comments All right. Thank you so much and look forward to seeing how it all you know works out with the funding and You know looking forward to the work getting done. So, thank you Okay So the north branch east Yes, I Think the As you recall we had a discussion about It's what we've ended up calling the former Vermont Association for the blind former Moat and former TKS properties the three properties of the city Owns we had some discussions in the fall about should we continue with the development plan For those should they become open space or what should we do? Directed me to look at options and come back with a recommendation. I pulled together a working group of some stakeholders I think you've been kept in the loop of those meetings and the notes from those meetings so I just tried to pull together all of those as one big summary for you with basically the final Conclusion which is basically that we said Let's do some master planning before, you know, we're spending a lot of time over a very small period Excuse me a very small piece of land We're getting kind of worked up without thinking of this in the context of the whole So let's take a look at a downtown master planning effort That would oh and I see some folks snuck in from the group. So please jump in if there's anything you have to add And that What we should do is think of an interim solution that doesn't preclude either the development plan or the creation of Green space and which perhaps in the short time does open up some more Open space that that wouldn't have otherwise existed. So one of the I Think what we came up with for guiding principles was keep the lot the development lot open Put whatever pavement road pavement that was going to be would have to go through where the parking lot was going to go So if we if we went back to plan a we wouldn't be you know We'd only be paving where there's already going to be pavement and that we had to have a functioning road Of course going back in so I think people got on board with that. We've got a draft of that plan Make some final tweaks We took a look at rough costs. This is not in your memo. I just actually got these numbers recently Currently we're estimating about six hundred thousand dollars to construct the original plan We think it'll be about five hundred thirty five thousand dollars to construct the interim plan Now so that the savings of sixty five thousand dollars to be note that we only pay ten percent of that So it's really only see to the city of sixty five hundred dollars If we were to then go back and put everything back the way we were going to do it in the first place I'll probably be another hundred fifty thousand dollars all coming from the city to go back and do the original plan So while it'll cost a little less to do the interim plan We will then bear the cost of putting it back as we're redoing some work that obviously could be perhaps the cost of a Developer if they were going to go do that and obviously if they were to be a park or something else Put in then then those costs including the repayment to the state Would be involved this has not yet Depending on waiting to see whether this was an area that you all wanted to pursue if it is then our next stop State feds to make sure they're they're on board with us, but that's That's really all I have to offer that I think it's all otherwise. It's all in writing. I said I see Elizabeth I see See here Laura's here Cory of course was our key staff person on this and Tom Any of them want to weigh in All these different stakeholders came together lots of different opinions and right away Given some comments particularly from Greg people fell in line that rather than to fight over these bits of little property To really work at a similar aim and that was really I really liked the process. You all did good work And bill you let it Good people in the group Can I just clarify bill so you said a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to go back and do the original I'm a little confused because I Looking at the current the suggested plan it looks like it would still allow us to go and put it You know break off a lot and have a building there. Well, but Cory you're gonna have to save me save me here, buddy But once we've created it then we still have to go back in and put in payment I think there's some drainage things that have to be done. You've got you know other connections to do so If we do it all right now while we've got the contractor there, it's one cost Then build something else even though we're doing it the I think the most efficient way we can you're still gonna be cost to come come back mobilize a contractor back to do the work and Undo some of what we've done. I mean, I think it's the least Disruptive thing we could come up with but it's not free to then put it back But we would still be it would still be somewhat changed from the prior plan because the road is In a slightly different location. It is but the road goes through where all the payment was going to go so the road's gonna be pavement so it would It could still be expanded we might have to redo the base to deal with the sloping and that kind of thing But the road could be moved once I Guess I'm not really explain so but the The advantage I see of this plan is that it actually would allow us to potentially still have a lot on the front Part of the space a building lot While still having more park space on the back so there's right and that more park space is not it's a one option So When we say that if we were to go back to the original plan We wouldn't be talking about taking that additional park space on the back of the lot and paving that over we would Just be talking about Separating off the front of the lot So so those are actually two different plans So yes the cost to go back to the original plan is to do exactly what we were going to do which was paid further back Yeah, so that's that that's correct. We could potentially just leave it the way it is Put the building in the building lot and have expanded Green space in the back one of the things we don't know about that is how if that number of parking spaces makes a building viable That's one of the things that needs to be looked at in the future That the cost for the 150 is just to be clear about that is to actually go back to the exact plan We were going to build in the first place. So you're right. That would be an expansion of pay space So in the scenario that it did a building was still viable with fewer parking spaces And it wouldn't want to sell the lot. It would just be correct. I think that's right Yeah That helps Connor and then Elizabeth. Did you want to say something? Okay, we'll go Elizabeth and Connor Oh They can be we Our group got really more into the design of the space. I think that's a That would be a policy decision for us I think the impotent Rosie had asked me also about why we came up with 18 and there's no magic to that number other than We have 18 new housing units going into North Branch, which are which are using up to 18 spaces in that parking lot So we thought at the very least if we can replace those There was also some notion that if we took out parking on Berry Street to put in a bike lane That's 17 or 18 spaces So we kind of hovered around that as a number that was important to maintain in light of other activity I'm I personally would assume that they would be metered or permit spaces like they would become be an extension of the parking lot Outback, but to be determined I bet we could find that out. I don't We do I do we do have a revenue projection of how much each meter brings in so yes, there would be some revenue Rosie go ahead So I just want to make sure that I'm following clearly. I'm hearing master plan And we just went through a process of talking about when we were going to do the master plan Are these the same master plan or is this a? Different master downtown master planning process versus a You would yes And that There was $25,000 that we received to do this when these discussions started started evolving In I believe Mike was at that at that meeting as well The idea was we might be able to expand the scope of that planning grant To include not just the streetscape, but to start to look at municipal properties that were controlled or least adjacent to that area I Spoke to the state and they said yeah, they can do it. They didn't promise more money, but we're working on that So the idea is that we've already engaged with a Consultant which is going to be a landscape designer urban planner design firm That's kind of an ideal time because you're engaging with the public to look at kind of the right-of-way and To just look at the adjacent areas will kind of give us that economies of scale when we've already engaged them So I've actually got the RFQ ready to go And we're hoping to get that engaged, but it is separate from our town master plan This is a downtown master although we've talked about just to be clear about this So yes, so the idea was do a state made and then just a little off track But just remind one of the reasons we're doing a state street master plan is because at some point We're going to replace the bridge It's the realtor bridge and so when we do that we want to have a plan for what while the streets closed What was it going back as so we're trying to look ahead to that? But the idea being is that you know, we have the the transportation the Mobility or emotion plan which talks about different bike lanes We have you know all these different plans So is as we do the master plan through the planning commission is they will look at these sub plans and Take them all and develop those into a master plan because some of them of course have conflicting Ideas some are complementary ideas. And so how do you you know and many of those groups were represented in in this conversation? So I think that the idea is to lay out these segments and then have the planning commission look at them to create a whole So So my understanding is that we could use a motion something to the effect of Oh, I have lost it I used to have it. I know it's like right here So to some kind of emotion to pursue the plan the interim plan as presented and I'll make a motion. Oh I was gonna read them. Yeah Anything I say I Move that we direct the city manager to pursue an interim solution which will retain long-term options for either building or parking open space or some combination of both and Additionally direct the city manager to Conduct a planning process which considers various needs and land uses throughout the downtown using the suggestions that the What was this group called? City managers working group came up with as a basis for this work So just just to reiterate so this is the plan that we want for the interim And we're gonna conduct Further planning process about what should be their long-term Any further discussion? Hey, all in favor, please say aye. I opposed great. Thank you Okay, so now we are skipping the zoning fixes it's Mike Miller is not able to join us We're talking about revolving loan funds, okay So the issue tonight is the loan fund reorganization since the 1980s the city has managed to maintain a number of revolving loan funds Most of these are results of community development block grant funds which Were lent to certain projects and then went back and retain it The challenge has been with these revolving loan funds is that many of them You know were solutions to problems in the 80s Or 90s and as a result when we try to apply these to existing Issues, we don't really have the flexibility. So as a result many of these loan funds are dormant and they approve a lot of modest amount of interest a year, but but not a significant amount and The plan has been just to say let's realign these with our existing goals. So a couple years ago we did the economic development strategic plan and We know one of the suggestions in there was let's start looking to find a way to To create, you know loan programs or and policies Which are flexible But also are valuable What does a small business need in order to be successful what? You know, how can we work with the banks to best leverage these funds? And so actually just recently we had Laura and Mike and And I met with one of the local commercial bankers To have a discussion on what is what is one of the best ways that we can do this So he offered some great suggestions and one of the things that we're hoping to do is to kind of continue those discussions to have a kind of a round table of Lenders and local business people Small businesses entrepreneurs and say what is it you need? Because our existing business loan fund for example Has restrictions that say things like you can't have any access to existing credit Which could include credit cards. So back in the 1980s when nobody had credit cards or not as many people You know, I Yeah, so basically we would be lending to people who Are in such dire straits that no one would have would give them money Your business is probably gonna fail. So Again, we haven't written many of these loans recently mainly since the 90s so The goal is to actually take this To redirect some of these funds into one economic development fund What I'm we're asking for tonight specifically with each of these housing economic development and and the ADA fund is to Direct the city manager and direct staff To start having those substantive discussions to come back with a series of policies and guidelines Which are developed with the? With the business community for example for the economic development fund We're shifting some of the other money into the into a separate housing revolving loan fund And this is a result of we have Programs which I think need to be looked at by the housing task force To say, you know, how effective are they? How can we best use these monies that are sitting in these accounts that are repayments from from loans? from specifically housing preservation grant loans Some of the funds come from CDBG funds for housing projects So the the one of the things that we're looking at is to say Let's let's relook at our program so that they align with our housing goals. How do we create new units? You know, do we have a rehab program? Is that is that duplicate? Is it duplicated because there are other agencies which do it? How do we best use our time resources? so we've actually I brought a version of this memo to the housing task force to get their input on it and And just recently Polly has offered to you know If approved to kind of go in this reorganization direction She's one person already volunteered to help work on these guidelines so that we can come up with programs and and it's kind of a really good timing Coming up actually. I think at the next council meeting we have a proposal for a Program which a pilot program to do accessory dwelling units and it's a very exciting program Really exciting if you own a home like this is it's good stuff. So we But one of the challenges that we look into is that in this is that we need to come up with the matches So, you know, we're working with other partners At the state's the admin authority and and from my community development program to start to see like where we can We can leverage some of these local funds and this would be one of those examples And that fits that's another example of saying, okay, let's make these funds more flexible Still gonna have council approval, but make these more flexible and then you know when these opportunities arise We have the opportunity to go after the projects and programs Flexibly and quickly because I think that's gonna be the key. So I think this is great. I think this is it's somehow shocking to me that we have these balances that are really not being used and So if we can make that more effective and working for the city, that is wonderful one of the questions I have about this is So in the chart that you gave us it's it says, you know, there's the right most calm intended purpose restrictions So I'm sure this that you've thought through this, but I just need to check in about it the Some of these some of this money It sounds like we're you know came through grants or whatever and they would have their own set of restrictions on them And I assume that the the restrictions that are here may be a combination of restrictions at the council placed on those Or the restrictions that were that came with the grant itself correct So some of these funds are our self-imposed restrictions like I can go through this really quickly Actually before you do that my really my question is I just want to make sure that we have the authority to revamp the guidelines we do we in order to do this we just have to go to the state That we annually report on on the existing funds Although we're pretty low. We're down to only really one or two that that we actually report on And we just get a release and generally speaking what they're looking for is With the reorganization of revolving loans funds is okay, you know What's your plan to do with these balances in in some of these cases? You know We've been in so many generations of repayment that even under the original grant agreement We're not really under the restrictions. They're Essentially our own restrictions at this point. So there's going to be there's going to be a conversation with the state and that's one of the pieces in this request on the last page is You know just to authorize us to go through that process and and close out those remainders with the state Like to make a motion to direct city manager staff and committees to prepare an updated guidelines For each of the proposed loan funds and to present updated guidelines and procedures for the council approval Over the next three to six months. Yeah Second I love how efficient you are team. We're doing great. Okay Okay for the discussion All in favor, please say aye. I opposed great. Thank you so much. Thank you. It seems wonderful Okay, so on to the social and economic justice advisory committee charge, I know we have a couple folks co-chairs From the committee here Welcome I'm Julia I'm a co-chair of the social and economic justice advisory committee Peter Kalman co-chair Do you do you want to introduce the topic or do you want me to do that either way? Okay So we were charged or we were asked to help the committee clarify what their charge was and so we have A document that I think you all sort of came either came up with or have had some input on right As a as a you know draft for the charge for this committee and There I think there's lots of great stuff in here. So Do you want to talk at all about the thinking that your committee is done around around your charge? You know how you came to this point or yeah, so that Well, I will say that That charge is modeled on charges from from other city committees just to looking at looking at the structure And and substituting in where we felt we could be successful and needed to address as a committee It's in the work and since we formed as a committee it's become clear that Having a clear charge is going to be really critical to pulling in the same direction and having Having making change and making making headway on these issues And so that the charge that I present or that I sent to you they have now Was not created by the full committee. It was it was sort of Drafted based on the energy committee's charge and then I had individual meetings with with folks and we kind of like worked on it individually. So the whole committee has not like But it but I think but everyone has looked at it and everybody has weighed in on it And I think will set us up. Well, the other thing I want to say about it is that there is the kind of like Official charge part and then the second piece of the document where there's some bullet points on the second half There's more focused on it's more about specific activities that we that we would take on And maybe not all at once. Maybe not all in our first year of existence But the things that we can imagine Yeah, that's great, and so you had written me an email to go just like some vision. Yes The other thing that Became really clear in our last meeting. We had really broad consensus for everybody at the meeting that We were lacking a shared vision and it seems like the city in general is lacking a shared vision and understanding of What is the current status of social and economic justice in our community and possibly even what are the definitions of those terms? and What what it wears it now and where are we heading and that that even that amassing such a vision a vision I'm sure other people are having these conversations in various ways other Organizations are having them at various scales and sizes at the state level at the community level at the central Vermont level But that having it specifically about Montpelier Needs to happen and needs to be an important first that we can't start making policy recommendations until we have a shared vision of Where are we now and where do we all want to be? and that it really does need to be a broad community conversation that is as inclusive of as possible both of experts in the fields that touch on That are that are working on these issues as well as individuals and groups that are affected. So That is what we are kind of starting to look at Sort of proposing that our for our first 12 to 18 months of work from I guess not our first but our next 12 to 18 months of work be focused around really not making specific broad policy recommendations, but really on amassing this vision and with the hope that eventually we will be able to make confident recommendations as a result Comments questions. Okay, I guess don't I got invited to a local neighborhood group of a dozen people and we've committed ourselves to become more self-aware of One black lives matter as an organization saw a wonderful but short video of the three women who founded it and their interview and discussion very expansive and Having been in women conscious raising groups in the 70s. Yes Anyway, I'm really would be really interested if we could actually start generating a lot more of those But one of the things I brought was to share with you and ask them to build a share There are some things of the the six core things with black life matters and some resources in Burlington in Vermont But I get to bill and you can share electronically But we're going to actually start reading some books and some articles and see some Documentatives and I'm going to share as I go along hoping that everybody can go on their personal journey as we then look to Apply this knowledge to our policies So I'll feed whatever I have into you if you can use it Yeah, but I do think we have to do our own personal homework as well as in the community sharing that What we don't know and what we need to know. So thank you Quick question Recruiting some new committee members with different backgrounds. Yeah, I think I think I think we could use more diversity among the committee I think we We've actually the two newest members have added like diversity in terms of perspective and agency connections Which I think is really great And yes, we need to grow. I also would say that In my personal, I mean we've started to talk about this, but in my personal vision of this committee that we also Will need to rely on work We'll need to like this is going to need to be a community lift And so we will need to rely on work that's a already being done by folks in the community But also, you know volunteers that come on for a project at a time There aren't folks who are going to take on joining the committee and staying on for the long haul But ad hoc and and as needed and so I also hope that that's another place we can get into diversity So I think we need a motion on the charge Can agree we have a second go ahead here I just I want to make sure that We have the flexibility over time to change Well Yeah, yeah, I mean if you wanted to change the charge you probably have to come back to the council But that is an option. Yeah, because I think as We reach out into the community and hear from a broader range of voices in the community we're going to have some disagreement about even a word and That disagreement will be actually important to helping us understand Social and economic justice better. So I think a year from now We probably could rewrite the charge in a way that would be the result of what we've learned And I just want to make sure that this isn't written in stone. No for sure That's fine. I also hope that whatever is You know here or whatever you find you might need to change it to is Empowering enough to your group to do the work that you want to do and in all honesty I hope that is the focus more so than changing these words Say that because in our I can't remember was our first meeting or our second meeting or both of them We got so hung up on the words Go ahead and get to the work It's great. It's important work needs to happen. Thank you There's a motion in a second For the discussion all in favor, please say aye. I opposed. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah And thank you to your committee as well, please pass that on Okay, the recreation feasibility study they're not here interesting Six and so they're coming from that to here so we should just So yeah, I'm anticipating, you know, we I want to be done by 930, okay, well, that should be easy. Well with the because we have some executive sessions Done with the public session in 930 We're gonna be done sooner than that. Yeah Well Rosie just went to the bathroom, I think so she's not here for the public message board So we're gonna jump to the community indicators that sound reasonable That's mine. We can talk about that Okay, so it's been a little while since we talked about the community indicators The color coding in case it's confusing here The red Items were things that we added as a result of the conversation that we had The last time some of the suggestions it turned out were not terribly feasible or they were the kinds of data that we We didn't think anybody was collecting we didn't know of anybody was collecting but there were a lot of great suggestions and So, you know, a lot of those got ended up being added in to To this list now if there are other things that you see is there still absent That is perfectly fine and would love to You know continue to have those conversations in a certain sense. This is even still Basically a first draft. This is the first a first run at community indicators They may yet change as we go to actually reporting on them But hopefully they're the kind of thing that would Be useful and some good data for other folks. So just so you know Rosie, we skip down to community indicators. Okay so Yeah, any comms or questions about the list as it stands. I Had a couple. Yeah, I remember Under environmental stewardship a bunch of these I would suggest would be more useful if they were percentages rather than numbers because a lot of these things like vehicle miles traveled and Number of single occupancy trips per week if our population rose which we are hoping that it will those will go up And then we would have an indicator that showed that we were failing when actually We might be doing better. That's great. So to reframe those in terms of percentages. That's excellent. Thank you Don and then Connor Do you actually have a color code indicator with this chart somewhere? Yeah, so this Yeah, so I have this in a Google spreadsheet that is color-coded this is You're sort of seeing the like behind the curtain a little bit as to how I think and you know thinking in terms of color coding things So but yes, that does live there. Sorry, so it's yeah It's on the website That seems fair Okay, so are you suggesting like the S back scores or SAT is that I'm happy to remove that thoughts on that team One note on that is that there is going to be this school report card From the AOE that may Yeah, well it might include but that might be sort of serving the same purpose without Sort of bias that's inherent there so Yeah, I'm not sure that I agree with getting rid of that. I agree that it's it's a It's a partial and imperfect measure, but it is Something that people can look at compare Other places But I Guess I wouldn't sign up to just I'll tell you I don't have strong feelings about it It's on there because I know the school keeps track and and they publish that data So it'd be very easy to access but so you know One either way what what's your pleasure team? I'm with Connor on that. I if it's available elsewhere. That's Then then that's fine. We can provide a link to it, but I just feel like Those numbers, uh, they don't mean what everyone ascribes to them other thoughts on that Go ahead Donna, well just if you take that one I'm you taking all the ones that have a score or a grade associated with it because a lot of them do have some sort of a grade rating Is it just one line you want to take out? Or is it all the lines that refer to any kind of a score or school rating? Just just the SATs when you're removed and as back and as back What do you think? I'm not sure I have a strong opinion. Okay, I Think I'm leaning with Jack if people are measuring it. We might as well include it I Don't feel strongly. I guess it depends on how we're presenting this are we I mean This is a data point that somebody can look at and ascribe whatever meaning they want to it. I guess If we are measuring our success based on that then I guess it would be You know what we could do potentially team is we could actually just take them Oh, well, so the school is going to publish its own data We could just have a link to the school and that's their responsibility What do you think about that? So we just is that okay? All right, so well, let's just We'll just have a link To the to the school's publishing of of their whatever data they think is most relevant So are you saying that for all the well? I think actually to be fair that would apply to anything that says Nancy Fitzgerald Those are all pieces of data that the school points to and honestly That's less that we need to maintain on an individual basis So it would actually just be easier if we could say interesting school data go here Great. Yeah So good plan that does that sound okay? Okay All right, great. Any further comments? Oh, yeah Goal areas That allows you to A So one thought is that So this is this is sort of draft one and I think the plan would be to take these and see how we would be how we would be plugging them into the in the Invisio software and I think the the goal certainly is to Tell a story, you know, hopefully have this in form You know the community about who we are and you know, I'm certainly interested in that and so I I See that as like a next phase, right? So Supposing we approve these indicators then Really the next phase is to say okay, so how do they either interface with? Access Montpelier or Invisio or both and I actually I'm gonna guess that we may have yet another round of Tweaking them, but this is just You know, are we ready to sorry go ahead? No, I was gonna Explain my understanding and you know, this is your initiative, so I don't want to I don't want to be explained But I think the idea is as we lay out some specific criteria for These aren't necessarily things that the city does or doesn't do maybe the meals We can see statically year after year How's our student help, you know health risk assessments going how are our Home sales going those kinds of things those are it's not it's just stuff We would have and once a year maybe update and say, you know, and then so over a period of time We could I think there's you know, like you're saying there's a huge opportunity to bring other things in or integrate the same I saw this In some ways intended to just be informative for us and then as the city council might look at it you're in your outer after five years It's a whoa. We're really slacking here. Maybe we should then Enact a program or bring up, you know, do something about it as opposed to oh, this is just happening I Know that's great One of the Potential modification to the recommended action could be I mean because the the recommended action right now was just adopt community indicators It could be adopt community indicators and directs these staff to you know, explore You know, yeah, the best way to present them or compare them Yes Oh, sorry, hang on one second Okay Speaking for myself and for in a way for the social economic justice committee I think it is important and Where I'm kind of at a handicap because I haven't seen the indicators, but it is important I think to look carefully at the indicators to be sure that there aren't any biases or Biased uses that could be made of some of the indicators So I think a point about that you can tell us a story You can tell a bunch of different stories and a bunch of different people can tell a bunch of different stories I think Bill's idea that this is actually a document to help You'd Track and decide and discuss that's great, you know the dirty laundry You know, I mean the potentially dirty laundry is in here But when you start to put out stuff that could let leap other people to say aha you see and Tell the story that they want so you got it. I just think we need to be a little mindful of How this could be used that's fair and Certainly open to suggestions there. So so is this available for others to see? Yeah, it's online Jive or comments Yeah, I don't see anything on there. I'm Julie. I don't see anything on there tracking Anything having to do with racial or ethnic makeup of the city I'm just thinking that yeah, and you know, I don't know. I don't know I don't I don't know where the like where you're what your sources of data are for for this or if that's been considered But the other thing that I've been hearing a little bit more about recently is both folks leaving the city because they people color in particular leaving the city because they don't feel comfortable or Folks visiting and not feeling Comfortable even relative to other Vermont towns. So I think that's something for the city to have an eye on I'm gonna I think that's worth checking on like I feel like we had that conversation I'm not sure what's not on this list, but it there's population by age group race gender and disability Okay, I think we could there are more data points that we could put in there to capture what you're talking about Yeah, thank you Jack When you mentioned Well all the lines that include that are saying talk to Nancy Fitzpatrick Now one of those is down below and it's the percentage of Children on free and reduced meals, which I think it's very important not to take that out of there I'm remembering a couple of years ago hearing Nancy or we're hearing Rebecca Holcomb speak and And she said your prosperity is tied to the most vulnerable child in your community So maybe we want to call that one out particularly, okay, we'll keep that one Okay, great note noted Glenn Just one question about It looks to me like under public health and safety the newly added ones are Sourced but the older ones are not so am I misreading that I'm not sure why that is I've I'd have to get back to you on okay, so why that's a good question Yeah, I Don't see anything under public health and safety about fires Just a number of fires I'm just missing it. We do report that I think I'm missing it on there. Well, let's put it on there, okay And again, this is that we can absolutely tweak it later on that's perfectly fine if there's any I know people are people are reading Reading through them Oh, sorry about that Is there any further? Yes, please do It's good Is that something the fire or I'm sorry the police department keep track of Great. Thank you. I'm also wondering about Children in state custody if that's data, I'm pretty sure that that is available through DCF But that can be an indicator of community health as well Okay And then the other thing I don't know that I saw anything about Substance abuse I'll be a public health and safety. There's a couple a measurement of drug use. I'm not feeling her But we don't include alcohol in that and I I think true. Should we do that? I think that's important I'm trying to find the line here. It's it's like halfway down. It's underneath hate crime Oh measurement of drug use drug and drug and alcohol again. We'll just have to see It may you know evolve as to like Exactly how we're reporting that but but service providers in the area may have to report on that anyway Population served on Okay I Include myself in this of having been bad at not really putting time into thinking about this You know the nature of this kind of discussion is that once you get into it You can immediately think of five other things that are listed that That should be and so it might be useful to like set herself a date to review it again and suggest and come up with With more suggestions, maybe with the tickler going out to the council In advance of that. Well, so since this is our second time reading through it I mean, I guess what I would suggest is that we implement something and that we continue to to think about it and adjust it because you're right we could We could just talk about indicators for buying this forever. Yeah forever, right? It could go on indefinitely And you know and over time the things that we care about and things that we want to track might change or they probably should change So my hope is that you know while this list is probably imperfect I would like to start I would rather start collecting or not necessarily collected you know, but Start saying all right. This is what we're going to try to to do and then adjust it But we should have a I what I'm hearing From your comment is that maybe we should plan to review the indicators once a year And it might actually make some sense to do that, you know early with the new council To say these are the things that we have been tracking. Do you want to make adjustments? Rosie, I think it would also be useful to Send this out to the committees who deal with these areas and say, you know, take a look Do you have any suggestions for better indicators or other things that we're not covering? Because we do have a bunch of committees that are really focused on all of these different issues. Yeah, I Agree and I think it would make sense maybe even to because we're going to be inviting other committees in our Strategic plan are yearly strategic planning session. That would be a great time to do that potentially Just thinking out loud But in the meanwhile, I would love to if there's a motion to adopt these and Manager to adjust as needed For the discussion all in favor, please say hi. Hi Great, thank you all Looking forward to this data and speaking of data Sorry Yes, exactly speaking of data. We're gonna go back to the recreation feasibility study which had a lot of data That was great. How are you all doing team? Do we need a break? Are you feeling good? Yes, we Break would be fantastic. So we're gonna take a five minute break and You know, I can set up Yes, welcome and so far as we're coming back from our break, please do please introduce your Ken Ballard Ballard Just I'm going to turn this over to Ken and let him walk you through the various proposals and the survey I just want to remind you all that where this started was Concern over the existing rec center, which is not 88 compliant Needs work there for violations. So we're sort of starting from the assumption that doing nothing is not an option That's kind of where we are placeholder and it also adds a certain urgency To doing this work because we can't let that center just hang out there forever. So with that as the background I've also asked him to be short, but he has tons of data to show you so ask any question and it's in here He can answer it So can okay, well good evening mayor and members of council as Sue indicated I'm going to kind of cut to the chase on this pretty quickly and show you kind of back into this and again if there's other information that you Want to see or work with we can bring that up, but we're going to kind of make this short and sweet Just a little bit about Ballard King and Associates. We're been around for almost 27 years. We're a recreation planning firm We specialize in recreation center work We've done over 700 projects across 49 states have about 200 facilities mostly public facilities open around the country done over 25 projects in New England Kind of a list of some of the more recent ones that we've done. So This is what we do and I've been having a lot of fun working on your project up to this point Real quickly the the parameters of our study. This is an indoor community center rec slash recreation center study That's what we've been focusing on our tasks our Market analysis, which is understanding the demographics not only of Montpelier, but also of a larger market area Understanding who is currently providing services whether they're public non-profit or for-profit Doing community input series of focus groups We've had a seven or excuse me 11 different focus groups over two different occasions going back to October Community meetings we just finished the second one here right before this meeting and then a statistically valid survey that was done in November and December So where we sit is the next one, which is the project options We're going to talk about here tonight So the first two the market and the community input really kind of inform us on Where we think the project could go and we're going to share some options with you once we get some direction we'll be doing some operational impacts on the Direction that the project may go also explore a little bit more on the partnership side So what do we see coming out of this is kind of the issues for the project? Well, if the question is what to build is it a new center? Is it rehabbing the existing Berry Street recreation center kind of is soon to get a doing nothing really isn't an option for it If you do build a new facility, where do you build it? Is it downtown? Is it on the edge of town or is it some other location that may be out of town? Who are the potential partners and we've started to work on identifying potential partners for the project and where we are Clearly one of the biggest questions for any project after this nature is how do you fund this from a capital perspective? And how do you operate it? What are the financial implications of both of those and ultimately? What amenities do we need to include in the facility and this is even going back to the rehabbing option? It says what do we get out of that and what would be potentially in a new facility and ultimately? How do we move forward and which way do we move forward? So these are some of the questions that we're going to focus on and we're looking for your input on as well Clearly as we present these kind of three options to you tonight we want to understand What the right option is to meet the needs of this community? But also fitting within the financial realities that are always present in the project of this nature And really what does the center need to contain and what does need to have to meet community needs? And this is community needs not only today, but looking out in the future so Let's talk about The three options that we've kind of put together for this project and there's kind of two sub options under the first one These are not at any particular priority order or recommendation. This is just kind of laying it out there The first one Is just saying we're going to rehab the existing Barry street recreation center One of the options to sit there and say We're going to do the minimal amount of improvements The code improvements the a to a access issues But that's really it. So you basically have an improved building, but it's what you have now You're not getting any space out of it. It'll be You know meet the requirements, but you're not really getting anything more than what you currently Have now the second option is to take it further do all of the things that are in the first piece there But now also allow use of the basement area, which is not currently in use because Of access issues and other other things as well as the second floor which both have usable space potentially If they're remodeled Obviously that one we actually gain space and how that's utilized how it's used for recreation purposes Can be determined, but you're getting something more than what you have now It's within the footprint of the building We we really don't have the ability with the site limitations to go outside of the existing structure of the building But it's what we'd be doing inside of that The second one Is deciding well what we really need to do and we can't fit it or you really use The existing recreation center, but we're going to build a new recreation center With the components and pieces that to people have identified as being important For the facility what we heard during the community input process And then the last one is a combination of the first two build a new center and keep the berry street center Obviously you'd have to do improvements to berry street And you'd also be committed to build a new facility So those are the three options i'm going to kind of take you through these In a little bit more detail in terms of what we kind of basically see is basic pros and cons and some Really preliminary cost information so Rehabbing the existing berry street recreation center. What are the pros? Well, it's a lower cost you have a An existing building that's there Yes, we have to do a lot to renovate that and bring it up to code and and make You know improvements, but there is an existing building. It's in town. It's it's it's walkable People told us in the community meetings and it came out real high on the survey that walkability was important It certainly supports that Because it's lower cost. It's a little easier to fund. We really see this as being A city of mont pealier project In this regard that you would take on really the responsibility much like you do now for that facility The cons Really are not going to be able to add a lot of new amenities Again, we're kind of dictated by the site limitations and the building limitations things like a swimming pool really aren't possible At that site and the reason I put that in here is the pool came out as the number one priority Coming out of the survey in terms of what people wanted to see not unusual That's always a pool indoor pools almost always in the top three Oftentimes the top number one or number two, but we're limited in really being able to do that with using the Barry street center Other partnerships are also limited. There's a number of things you can do there. It's pretty limited So it's hard to bring in any real what we call equity partners that are going to put potentially dollars into the project itself And certainly the issue of lack of parking You know if we do the full Kind of renovation expansion of the center where we're getting that basement and that upper level to work In providing new space we'd expect the utilization rate for that facility to increase pretty dramatically Well, when we do that we're going to have more people coming Do we have the ability to park them to get them into the facility? Certainly the fact that we're in town and have the walkability issue helps with that But you know you're going to get a lot more use out of that. So that that's another potential issue cost To do this the minimal one which is just code implications and everything else could could be Two to maybe three million dollars and these are pretty You know just Very general cost estimates. We are not An architectural firm. We're not a capital cost estimating. This is a little bit out of our bailiwick When we move further with along with this we will try to nail this down a little more Through utilizing some of the services of people that can do that But anyway, there's going to be a certain level of cost associated with that The improved side of that could push that up to five million dollars by getting Again those other two levels. So they're they're not cheap And again anytime we're talking about a renovation of a building of that age There's so many unknowns that it's always a little bit of a Concern and you carry a huge contingency just because you don't know what you're dealing with You really get into doing it So it you know that's kind of what it might be operational subsidy when we see operation subsidy That's the difference between Costs of operation and revenue potential. It's the what the net is if you will what you're dealing with Your subsidy level could go up by nothing if we're just doing the simple improvements to the To the building without adding space up It's upstairs and downstairs may not have much of any maybe pick it up a little bit Potentially up to about $50,000 net increase in cost to the city Due to the full building improvement now, we've got two extra floors We're going to have two uh spaces that'll be utilized for a number of functions We would expect to be bringing in revenue in some program areas for that But you'll still have a net cost increase to that and that could be a pretty wide range right now I think it'll be more on the lower end of that scale, but that remains to be seen Driver Well, we're gonna you we're gonna have to Heat and cool on a better basis those spaces than what you're doing now. We're gonna have to clean them We're also gonna have programs and activities that we have to pay instructors for those programs have staff there To do that so it's a kind of combination of all that So new center What are the pros on this? Well, it can be a full facility We can you know, we're not limited by site in fact, we would say that whatever you do on a new center That we have to be looking for a site that would allow this to be supported So that potentially could have aquatics whether it's done in the first phase or late later phase And you would find a site where ultimately you could do a full build out even if it was in phases So you can sit there and say the future of indoor recreation for the large part could be at this location You potentially have more partners. You have more amenities We also as we all talk about later Probably won't be downtown So you may be able to bring more partners and we say partners We're really talking potentially equity partners instead of bring dollars to the table Because of the size and magnitude in the facility and adding aquatics, you're you're really taking on kind of a regional focus now Before the berry street facility is primarily what it is now It's going to be really inward focused on your residents. This becomes now A much more regional facility by certainly the amenities it has and potentially by where it's located You would need to have improved access and parking. We'd have to find sites that would support that Hopefully we'd still be able to get other forms of Access in terms of everything from walking to trail access to biking all of that Cons obvious thing. We're talking about a much larger building High cost to build and you don't have an existing structure. You're probably starting from ground zero So you're gonna have to take on the full cost of of building that building It's likely not downtown and by downtown I mean in the city core and it's because of the size of the building parking and other requirements You know finding that kind of property or purchasing property to do that Probably not likely wouldn't say it's impossible But not likely and the reality is we get to cost here in a minute You're going to need an equity partner somebody else putting money into this project Capital cost depends upon what you're doing the size of magnitude and a lot of it's driven by aquatics And whether you have that in the first phase and how big it is And that could be anywhere from 12 to 20 plus million dollars So it's a big price tag to do that. These are not cheap buildings to build Um operational subsidy again difference between expenses and revenues The net cost if you will to wherever the operator is anywhere from about $150,000 a year to maybe as high as $350,000 a year So there is a subsidy involved with that obviously And then the third option Which now involves again keeping the berry street facility would have to have some level of improvement to it And building a new one as well you get two facilities Obviously you would have those in different areas Serving different Users you would have potentially both a local focus and a regional draw You'd be have multiple types of uses maybe by different locations More opportunities in multiple locations You just have more variety This is the highest cost option on the con side. I mean you're having to make improvements to your existing Uh facility and you're building a new one also has the highest operating cost because we're subdividing the market So we're having some folks that are going to one location for certain things one do another Some people will say well, I don't need to go to that location because I can do that here So it kind of divides up your market that contributes to higher operating costs by two facilities And minimizes a little bit some of the revenue potential that's there cost implications This one's a little harder because you're dealing with two of these things But it's basically anywhere from 14 to 25 plus million dollars And the subsidy now is about that 300,000 to 500,000 dollar range So that's kind of real quickly if you will the options We're certainly interested in your input your questions on which of these you would like to see us pursue It may be some version that we don't have up there But that's kind of where we sit we kind of want some idea of how important you think Different elements may be to occur to have in this facility And again, you know, we can talk about some of the project partnering aspects and those types of things as well So That's kind of the long and short Can I prepare to talk about survey results if you need to and other things as well? I have slides on those if you yeah, we sent the survey out on Friday, so maybe you've looked at it and don't need that but Ken is prepared to talk about the survey results If anybody would like more interest He's also been talking to sort of equity partners in the region to get to gauge some interest of Sort of the business community partnering with us on something like this Can you elaborate on what you mean by equity partners? Are these investors or are these um Businesses that would be Providing services or somehow like doing something more than just Paying for it. It could be all of the above. It's but equity says They're actually putting dollars into the project either capital and or operational dollars into that They're involved level involvement would depend on the partner some of them may want to simply say For the public good. We're interested in doing that And in doing others may say we actually want to have some type of the presence in the building Can you give me are you talking like large employers or are you talking like a an exercise Company that wants to use the space I'm just having a hard time It's it's a major businesses that may be willing to help fund the capital construction of the building some of the partners we've talked about They're a little more aligned with some of the Purpose of the facility might actually want to go beyond just Giving potentially dollars for the ceiling but actually have a presence and they would be a medical provider Yes, the barry street Existing facility is in the designated tiff district, right? Yes, yes it is. Okay. Yes it is and Okay So in theory That could be a public private partnership I know the city owns the building right now, right, but If for example, we were to find an equity partner who was willing to put up significant amount of money the city would Could in some way partner with them Is that permitted with a tiff district or Or if the city sold the building to someone with an agreement that this is going to be used for this purpose I think it would be more that there was a This would have to be an improvement that was related to a private Investment so let's say Theoretically someone next door was putting in a health Facility and this was going to be a public improvement next door We might be able to use the tiff funds from that to help pay for this, but I'm not sure we'd have to look at that I don't know how on point that would be for tiff. We'd have to see but so if like a nonprofit bought the space and then Well, we'd have to yeah, I'd have to see what the link would be what what what this was doing that was Allowing the business to Use tip funding in other states for public Centers, I don't know that that there may be limitations where you can do in vermont But it's pretty strict in vermont what we think I think that that might be something that's worth We'll look into that for you actually I think the other issue is I be honest with you We've kind of noted it. I think you're gonna have big problems getting a equity partner Actively involved in Berry Street because I just don't know that there's enough there For a real partner to get much out of that unless they were going to take it and use it for some other Different purpose, but actually on the same level of saying we're going to partner to develop a Or improve for a community purpose Not sure you're going to get there's going to be much traction with that Um, and then the other thing is do we have are there any like sites specifically that were looked at? I knew we had talked last Time about the the possibility of holding open an option for the redstone But I don't think that made it anywhere with the legislature We floated site ideas redstone is now Assuming the papers have been signed privately owned that property is privately owned and that would be a great location for it If that private owner would be willing to talk to us about it We've looked at I mean, I'm sort of dreaming here. So when people see it on tv, they don't need to panic But national life has some some land you come right off the interstate and head up to national life That might have some regional interest or up by the hospital or In town maybe down even by the elm street rec Field with the pool that you know the outdoor pool there. So we're sort of keeping everything on the table You know even talking about satan's pasture or some land owned by the vermont college of the fine arts probably looking for a site realistically that's On the grander vision at least where we sit right now may need to be as large as five acres That's that's and that would be different support not only the building But also required parking in that type of thing. So it's not a small site now There are ways to stack these things and others but It's going to be hard to do it you might Big might be able to do it on three acres. I've never really seen it done on less than that One of the survey results. It's probably worth mentioning is While people do want a pool and might want a new facility We asked them if they're willing to pay for that went through their taxes And there was a little bit less enthusiasm. We asked that question More than half seem to be either very willing or somewhat willing to renovate the Existing facility I was I was going to ask a tax increase what his take, you know, we all have our own local biases and preferences here But you're you're at the out-of-tounter What what was your read of the survey results if there's a Quick I I actually Was concerned that would be Far more negative than what it was It was actually somewhat feeling a little bit better about this. I think there's reasonable, you know Here's the question on basically improving Berry Street and actually That's reasonably strong You have a in both of these you have huge numbers of maybe and not sure and that's Not unusual in a survey of this nature because people go, I don't know There's a whole lot of other questions, you know that they need to answer But that shows a willingness to at least look at that you have a yes of 41 You know you even take half of those next to in the maybes and the not sure's You're there and the nose are about almost A little more than half of the of the yeses. So I'm encouraged by that one. That's you know, that has a possibility of Moving forward And again, the key thing is getting those people that are in that unsure. Maybe Information that ultimately need to make a decision And and so that in compared to other projects. That's not too bad This one and you know part of it's the magnitude Is I would say it's not a non starter, but it's certainly a much higher mountain decline You know, yes, here is is only 25 percent And you know the maybes and not sure and now because we're talking bigger dollar amounts are huge numbers I mean, we have over 40 percent in that category of I don't know and now the no numbers gone up. So um I wouldn't say well just forget it But it's definitely going to take some work Tell me what I'm getting. Tell me who else is participating in this What we go, I think the other key thing that's in here Then the 200 to 350 number does not get you to the full dollar amount to Pay for the full center. You that's that's not funding all of it. That's funding maybe 50 percent So that's what we talk about the equity partner, you know, this is going to be hard enough This is going to get you maybe half a little more than half of what you would need Potentially that's with the pool you take the pool out of the question you're you're higher But even then I don't think you're going to fund it all from Tax number so you're going to need their sources and that's what we talk about the equity partner piece being pretty critical If you're going to move forward with this concept on the bigger standalone facility One of the things that I've been wondering about for as long as this conversation is going on is that It's privately owned, but we have a facility Just a few miles up the road where there's a pool. There's indoor tennis. There's a lot of recreational Opportunities and I wonder Why is that what How do we keep compete with that or how does it how will it make sense to To do this when When first and fitness is already up there Well part of our market analysis was to understand who's there in the marketplace A facility of this nature is very different from a private facility in terms of You know, what you do there the types of programming the way you gain access and everything else Um, it also doesn't perform financially like a private facility And that's where we're showing an operational loss in those options And part of it is is is trying to get access so that People don't have to be members of a facility to utilize this Um, you know, I'm from out of town, but if that facility was there tonight I could go pluck down my dollars for a pass for tonight go in there utilize it I'm done Certainly passes and and our memberships would be available, but there's a lot of different ways to access the facility So it's it's a different thing. You know a lot of people saying well, I already belong to this facility And what we say is that's awesome And what is is you know, there'd be other things you may want to do at our facility come on down Take that class take that program Do something in our facility that that is not available or maybe somebody else in your household Wants to be doing as well and that's the beauty you can kind of come and go as you want But they're also because of that Limits our ability to cash flow the operation of the facility So there it's a different animal than the the public's excuse me in the private sector in terms of what What typically is available and how it's utilized by the general public I was really curious about this chart the other one here It's like you get them two chances to say maybe and not sure Yeah, I mean that's like Another opportunity to say to say no. So why did you have those two that are so similar in my mind? um Well the survey company when you put this together they don't ever Like to have just a yes-no And a not sure you want kind of it's more on how it scales it between that yes and no So how do they define those two? um Well, maybe basically says, you know, that's closer to yes that says, okay. Yeah, I like that a little bit better Unsure is closer to no going I really don't know So the way you see it set up there You know coming down from in terms of level of support. Yes Maybe unsure no On this other one you have high priority Very high priority. Yeah, and to me I can find those two and say, okay There's 36 percent who's more than medium priority. Yeah, that really is I mean part of the thing that was interesting out of this is that You know well way over 50 percent thought this was a least a medium priority Yeah, you know again and very Pretty low percentage at 28 thought it was a low priority So it is on people's minds in terms of yeah, you know, we have an interest in this how That translates and then when we do some projects where that comes back as a I don't really think that's something you need to worry about so don't go look that's not really seen as a priority I would say this is Worth consideration by the city and by council to in terms of what you may want to do It's on people's minds enough with that to to do that But again, I think part of that medium and even high number is once again the uncertainty of what are we talking about here? It says, you know, it keeps people from making that either high or very low There's you know, you give more information that will flesh out some of that middle ground a little bit more one of the I mean Property taxes would go up to fund this for sure, but one of the things That strikes me is there's a huge number of large employers. Well, not a huge number, but there are a number of large employers Um Who partner sometimes I know with I think first and fitness as a state employee I I have a I get a member discount sometimes health insurance will pay for that Um, did anything sort of look at that in this part of the study or is that the next phase? We have had discussions with some of the larger employers in the area to gauge levels of interest in this Um You know, certainly at this point we're not any commitments, but we have Several that have indicated This is a project. They're willing to look at there are ones that they're a project They're willing potentially to even help with some level of funding yet to be defined So You know, I we don't have anybody that's ready to sign the dotted line We certainly haven't done an exhaustive study on that but one of the things we were hoping is that if This was an option that the council wanted to pursue There is a level of interest out there and that You know, you'd be able to leverage out some of the bigger employers that you're able to sit there and say love We're not going to make up the difference, but we're involved that you can leverage that to get other Other levels of funding from other sources as well And there's at least some indication that that's worth pursuing and in terms of I'm just thinking about how kelloch Hubbard goes to Other area communities for funding as well. Would we be interested or with the city? Is there any appetite or was that explored at all in this is is going to other municipalities? And for you know for We did think if we were going to build a new facility was going to have a regional focus We should go to our other community partners and ask for some money That's not big money. That turns out not to be big money, but we would ask them for And I think to play continue to do that And yeah, and there's implications You know if other communities don't want to partner the price points of what they may have to do to gain access Versus a resident of the community they pay an upcharge potentially on that. So there are some opportunities We we have had some initial discussions haven't exactly been See them as his viable equity partners at this point, but I don't know that that's Absolutely definitive and as this gets more Defined that that needs to come back around again So something that I thought was really interesting on the survey was the number of people who currently use the rec Center facilities generally in classes and I think that was around 20 22 percent And I found that surprisingly low for the amount of emphasis that we put on it And that kind of made me take a step back and think okay, so this is this big community service that we're providing but A lot a large share of our community is not utilizing it and So what does that mean for how we prioritize this in the budget? And so, you know one takeaway might be that we need to do stuff to expand how desirable these services are One takeaway might be that this isn't something that our population is really interested in using and so maybe we should scale back our our Efforts in this area. Um, so I I'm curious what How that participation rate compared to other communities that you've surveyed and what you might take away from that Here's my take on this your rate of participation Is low It's actually a higher number than I maybe would have thought to be honest with you Very street recreation center There's not much there. Well, and I kind of when I read that question and Had I answered that question? I would have assumed that that you were asking about all of the rec department programming Not just and and that's I I would imagine that a bunch of people answered it that way And there is a lot of rec department programming outside of the current rec center Oh, yeah, the intent was to gain who had actually used the barry street recreation center, not just recreation in general But I you know, I would contend that you're limited in what you can offer in terms of General recreation programs on an indoor variety simply because of the limits of that I think the interest in the survey Says there's interest there It's you can't be met. Even there was the other questions about does this service your needs and the response on those were very low And that was just not this facility that was very low compared to a lot of other locations So I think there's a lot of lack of better term pent up demand It just that facility is not doing it. So I I would say exactly the opposite I don't think it's a question of whether you should Invest more in that because not so many people are using it I think the fact that you can only reach a pretty small percentage by because of the Shortcomings of your facility is the issue Some people don't use it because it doesn't have a pool. It doesn't have exercise machines, etc But a lot of people are trying to use it even for what it does have I'm a regular user the last time I went to play basketball We had 20 people show up at lunchtime We had to cycle through you can only play half the time There's tremendous competition for hours. So this time of year that building is just Used almost every hour of the week And so the pickle ballers are frustrated that they can only get the hours that they can get There are a whole bunch of Middle school age kids doing having basketball practices So it's kind of maxed out is another factor And to rosie's point I wonder though if that's I mean that's obviously reflective of the people that are here now And part of what Montpelier is trying to do is to grow and to attract New residents and so I'm sure that there's probably research out there about this already But in terms of like, you know, we're looking to grow the grand list So we're you know, we're investing in housing and all of those other things would would One of these particular models be more desirable or less desirable to Populations that we're trying to bring in Interesting you should say that You know right before this we had a community meeting and it wasn't particularly well attended But we had some pretty frank discussions and some of them were with Where I would say you or younger People in their 20s early 30s and They made it pretty clear that They thought you know something was more would you know, they're saying look if The Montpelier wants to try to to attract people here and and get a younger dynamic in place You need these kind of facility and beyond just Berry Street. They said that that is not enough So their whole premise was and even to keep them here it says, you know We need more if you're trying to attract this younger population. So it kind of anecdotally got got to your question Just to to follow that up though. They also expressed some concern about raising the property taxes that You know, they would like to buy houses in Montpelier. So At the same time, they were very anxious for us to pursue partners to try to hold the cost of the facility down And some of the businesses actually said that this would help them attract Employees to the area. They felt like that would be a draw I think ultimately what we're looking from from council is a little bit of direction on how you want us to proceed We're kind of at this little more than 50 maybe in the two-thirds range. So how do we Deliver back to you something that meets your needs and expectations I don't have we don't have to have an answer to that tonight But at some point you want to have at least a blessing that we're heading in the right direction What do you want us to see us do? You're saying don't look at this option. You don't want to go there. That's fine We just kind of want to have a little bit of insight Conor you had a hand raised to you. Yeah What does fitness mean to you? Fitness is anything from group exercise classes to You know functional fitness to machine weights to cardio It's a broad term that covers a lot of that without having to break it out into all the particulars But it's it's it's it's a you know active fitness-based program Do you see like Possibly a slice this up even more like they got the flint planet fitness there, right? It's like 80 machines there right you pay what 10 bucks a month seems like a pretty good business model, right? Yep I don't know if like the fitness equipment necessarily needs to be in this place I look at Vermont College of Fine Art They got a ton of space back there. Could you do a fitness center up there and pull somewhere else? Maybe could be phased in You can one of the things is we talked about just to keep in mind we talked about doing Well, if you do Berry Street, you do a new record the more we spread these pieces out The less cost effective it is for whoever's operating it So if if the city's wanting to do that your cost to be able to do that Both from a capital and an operational will go up pretty dramatically your revenue potential Is generally less because now people are having to go multiple locations The model of trying to get as much into one area is Is kind of the most cost effective way in a lot of larger cities. We've been trying to consolidate Facilities because they're not sustainable operationally or even capital wise So I just caution you that that that's a difficult model to to sustain over time Just one more point I think we should all be thinking about like it was 18 years old plus who was surveyed on this Yeah, and we have we have it broken down by the age of the respondents We also have the ability to look at data In terms of so what did this age group Where their response is different than some, you know, so you don't look at well What do younger people say what do older people say if you look at the full survey document There's like 200 pages back behind this stuff and it's just the raw data So you can look in there by age by income levels all sorts of different criteria And you can kind of cut the data or see if there's anything that's different about that Right, I think the one point I just want to make is you know, even though a lot of people are okay with getting there My car, you know, there's probably a lot of kids who walk ability is a huge factor Yep, and they might not be taking it to consideration here your walk ability answer I mean we kept hearing that with the response level even out of the survey was That was high, way high So, um, Rosie you have a comment and then I would love to just go around and if if anybody has strong feelings about what you Are interested in what you want to support you don't want to support Moving forward, you know, we're not is not binding obviously at this point. So, you know, general impressions are good, but Yeah, and then we can be moving on. Yeah, so the one comment I wanted to make is that um, I Thinking about our current rec department programming and how we might pay for this in the future If we use public money to create this thing then I feel pretty strongly that the Bar to to entry and participation needs to be really low And one of my concerns right now is that We have a lot of city money that goes to subsidizing, you know, our rec classes and stuff And then there's still a fee to use the classes And I think that that means that the lowest income members of our community can't actually Enjoy the amenities that we as a community are paying for including the lowest income members of the community And so it's very counterintuitive because I kind of I also feel like well user fees, you know If you're going to use the amenity then you should pay for it But I want to be really careful that we don't try and split it down the middle too much and Really support this with a lot of taxpayer money and then make the bar to entry High so high that you know through an annual fee or you know a monthly fee that Half our community can't use it because it's too expensive. So that's just a I don't have an answer to that It's just a challenge that I think we have with these sorts of programs Um and with this type of project and I just want the council to be aware of it and thinking about Maybe we take an all or nothing approach where either it's you know Entirely city funded and we have no entry fees for residents or maybe it's Not really funded by the city and we figure out some kind of Method for us to facilitate this but that the city is really not putting any money in and it's fully user funded Such as a thought about that I've done arnie. I thought there was a sliding scale on the Course fees no We do Situated as far as classes going not sure people have been turned away For classes or have they come because my concern is that we don't I know that you help out when people ask But it's not one of those things where we apply it across the board and make it really obvious that You know for people below this income level This is how we handle it or anything like that And it's another one of those things where you know we have this if you're in the know You can access it if you're not if you're from the outside You don't know to ask And so I would like us to be a little bit more transparent about that That's that's a good point. I also feel um, this is like my own little pet thing I suppose but like I feel very strongly that Learning how to swim ought to be free Because everyone ought to know how to swim Um, anyway, but that but if you're going to take an ultimate camp, you know, for example, they should charge a lot for that You know, like do you know what I mean? Like everyone doesn't need to know how to play ultimate But instructor fees are so Sorry to We look at now as it's not unusual to kind of tier programs and services So it gets at what you talk about that says swimming lessons are a basic service So those are going to be priced at a different differential than you're like even private swimming lessons Okay, that's a different level or some of these other Born things so you have pricing scales a little adjust down there And the more you can get program spread between those things the better your cost recovery is I mean just to put it in perspective A facility that we're talking about on a new center With a pool just for the sake of conversation and you know, your operating costs will be north of a million and a half dollars a year So if you're not bringing in a pretty hefty amount of income to offset that it becomes a non workable issue So the issue is how do we make or have the people have the ability to pay to pay? And how do we handle those that are under that bar that cannot and a lot of facilities in some really socially And economically depressed areas have been able to work out systems that allow that to occur Salvation Army and their croc centers do that a lot and so they're in the communities that are very difficult When boston everything else that says okay We're trying to make sure those that have the ability to do those that don't are taken care And we have those all those people in the same facility with not any really knowing that says You didn't pay anything and I paid this much So that there's workable systems out there that still Get the numbers that you need for revenue There's a lot of different options for how people utilize the facility that will really just push up the amount of people that are coming through there And you can make decisions you may say we're going to have swimming lessons for all second graders in the city that are free Those types of things are done and and those are fine. And you know Aren't you considered to tell you what the implications are doing, sir? I just need to be told that revenue is not a factor No, we make the school pay for it So impressions from council team for the direction for for this crew Go ahead. So I was really charmed by the berry street building when we took the tour this year I think having seen it back to back with the senior center and the amazing renovation in the senior center I can really see the potential for that building being a beautiful space And to me, I think that that's you know, we have an opportunity with this historic building That's in a great location for a cost that isn't Is big a hit to the city budget to make that space more usable and so i'm That that's intriguing to me. I still have budget concerns and I want to you know, make sure that we're not continuously Having an unsustainable tax rate, but I could see some real big advantages to the city in that With renovating the existing space I'm really really wary of taking on the commitment of a city run aquatic center You know knowing the capacity of our city staff and Knowing the capacity of our city for for a tax base. So and I also I'm I can't think of a It's really important to me that it be a walkable location Even if it is an aquatic center And I can't think of a good location within the city to have that happen And I feel like if we have another car-based pool outside of the city How is that better than first and fitness from a you know an an accessible point of view for for elderly folks in the city who are trying to be able to stay fit and not wanting to drive and from a You know, it just from an environmental perspective There just seemed like so many disadvantages to putting some kind of destination outside of the walkable core. So Those are kind of where I'm at right now Donna, well from the other end I did not fall in love with the tour I hadn't been in the building for a long time and I just felt sad for it that it just really needs help But I am sold by the numbers That people are really looking for exercise and there's a lot of small rooms there As well as the basement with true renovation. It can create a lot of niches for different things So I'm much more into not just to rehab, but the improvements That's much more sellable Financially and use-wise and it is in the core of walkability other thoughts I know a big driver of this discussion Our group of people who really really want a pool and They are Very committed to wanting that But I think that it's it's hard to As rosie said See we agree on stuff As rosie said it's it's hard to see the The capacity and the willingness of voters of montpellier to To do something that big It would take a lot to to convince me of that I see rosie and donna talking about the Saying kind of the same thing about the recs current rec center in different ways, which is that there's There's real potential there and And I would like to continue to look at look at expanding that To see what we could generate any further If not, that's fine. Yeah, um, I guess I'm I'm And maybe it's because I'm naive although I don't know that I've been called that in probably 33 years um, I'm curious about this the the TIFF options and and what may exist there um, and Additionally, I'm wondering, you know assuming the responsibility of an aquatic center Is is something just based on finances alone that I don't think I could in good conscience vote for However, I'm wondering if there may be ways that we can Make something like that happen whether it's a partnership with, you know, first in fitness that Is an actual partnership which would you know really translate meaningfully to residents in Montpelier having access to a facility that already exists Or finding ways to you know, really actually partner with surrounding communities to sort of go in all together in some way for a regional Facility that everyone could could use I I know Um How many people approached me about the pool idea and I love it. I think it's great I would swim all the time But that that sort of taxpayer burden that would translate into a significant increase in rent Uh in Montpelier It is just not sustainable to me. So Okay, and if you don't need to Okay Fair Uh, does that provide a sufficient amount of direction from time being and I know you all are going to go Do further work on this and are coming back at some point to Um, take up this conversation again. Can you fit a new facility on top of a parking garage? You laugh, but we're getting ready to do one in south florida. It'll be on the top of the parking garage. There you go Yeah, can can we have your slide presentation tonight given to us? I think you do I didn't I didn't get it So but we can The sound right is bring you bring you all a sort of flushed out renovation proposal Perhaps for the berry facility and maybe sort of keep a little conversation going on the side with partners for uh You know larger aquatic facility it that should come through great At least for me that was renovation and improvement. He actually he actually gave two little options. The service show of what people were looking for And a lot of that can be done in the berry That's great. Yeah, I think uh, yeah, I agree. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you very much Thank you very much all right, so um onto the Discussion of a public message board. No, this is an item that Um, councilor krueger had brought up uh at some point. Do you want to frame this? Sure um So I've thought generally about how we as a council are limited in our communications by public meeting law And also how all our committees are limited in communication By public meeting law In that you can't have those sort of back and forth email discussions, you know, hey, here's this article I saw what do you think about that? You know and and oh this reminds me of something else all of those discussions If they're kind of relating to substance really can't happen Outside of a physical public meeting And that's state law And I've seen You know being on some of the uh the various committee Email lists and stuff. I've seen people struggle with that and have to be reminded that hey, you can't just reply all and Give your opinion on this because it's not a public meeting Um, so I I think that if there were some kind of electronic forum Where people could have those discussions and it would be readily viewable by the public And you know and that would still meet the intent of the public meeting law Although it currently doesn't meet the letter of the law I think that that could really help move discussions along and you know make Involvement in public discourse more accessible to people who can't necessarily afford to Attend a four-hour meeting in person And can't necessarily Afford to sit and watch our four-hour meeting, you know, even though it's recorded and available online That's still a major time commitment to to see what we're talking about So I think that this is a tool It certainly wouldn't replace our current meetings and replace our current committee meetings But it's a tool to make those more productive And so I would like us to ask our legislators to consider making some sort of amendment to vermont public meeting law to allow for Communities to have electronic message boards that are used by members of their governing bodies and their committees To have some of these discussions outside of a public forum So i've done a little bit of Not a lot but a little bit of thinking around this and I So the the question for me comes down to The logistics right and making it accessible because I think we all want to be you know accessible even to people who don't have electronic capacities and so Just as a first step towards that one of the things I could picture potentially is like let's say it's just a Threaded discussion within a committee You know they want to have a discussion around You know some topic that seems relevant if it were Some kind of what if we could call it like a supplemental conversation And that it could be approved along with the minutes of the meeting So that it's you know accessible as accessible as the minutes of any prior meeting then That that would be One first step towards that And I think having you know Some thinking through like okay, so how how do people you know not You know connected to electronics or not preferring to interact that way Is it still is it still equitable and is it still accessible? And that that's one possibility Putting it out there Other thoughts I just had a simple logistic question in terms of if we're gonna do this. Do you envision this or does the council envision this as being For the bodies only or would there also be public Comment and I'm sure I'll be asked that so would it be you know See in between meetings the council is working over something and julia wants to weigh in on it Can she do that or is that only no this is a chance to read this but we still have the public comment here So I guess I was envisioning some sort of It's a back and forth between the members of the body, but there is some kind of public comment section Where members of the public could generally address the committee through an electronic forum And have that be public if they wished So what you're envisioning is like a whole new platform Right that you would have to go to So I'm envisioning that we ask the legislature to allow us to if we can show that Whatever electronic forum we're able to produce and it might be different from Montpelier than it is for another community But if we can show that this is You know the public can participate and see and you know be involved That they would allow that And then what we actually do with that authority after we get it You know we can figure out you know what platform do we use and how does it work and all the logistics around that and maybe I know donna's very concerned about this. Maybe you have a group like us that decides You know donna doesn't really like participating in this sort of written back and forth And she would rather discuss in person and so maybe as a group we decide well, we're not really going to use that um But maybe if we're a small subcommittee working group and I ran into this You know when we have subcommittees of three people You can't have any discussions outside of your meetings at all. You can't even explain to somebody You know what's What's going on or what your thinking is or what your next steps are outside because two of the three of you Make a majority and so, you know, it just it's very impractical um, so maybe we end up you know using it for those situations and not for whole whole um public disc or uh Council discussions. I just want the authority from the legislature to do this So maybe it could be even the kind of thing where uh, if the whole group doesn't Agree, then you just don't do it. Maybe yeah. Yeah Conor I'm just wondering would it be worth uh Secretary condos come in and just have kind of a round table with us. He's uh, he's very engaged constituencies But uh, I bet he'd be happy to come down and just kind of throw some ideas out Because the other thing is that we rate the legislature and the s os uh, opposes it I don't like our odds anyways, so I'd almost rather start working kind of collaboratively with them to come up with something Good. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I saw Rosie and then Donna The other thing I'm wondering about is just getting an advisory opinion from the secretary of state about the feasibility just in terms of like is that something that could be permitted with some reading of public meeting law And then and then that might I'll give us some insight in terms of how we could shape or structure a conversation going forward I thought bill sent us an email About this. Maybe I read it somewhere else I'm just like a picture. I don't know how you can have a conversation over here that involves a few people from this body And a few of the public and then meanwhile you have this meeting that's official And you had this discussion over here So do we sit and have to read all of this to know what's going to happen here? And how does it not become a front porch forum where a small group just takes on this topic and gets it way out left fields So those are my concerns Jack, I think it's an intriguing idea Because We all know that there's for most issues of that we discuss here We don't get a lot of public input at our our meetings, but I also kind of worry if If there's as full a discussion as one could imagine on this message board Well, people show up at the meeting and their reaction was going to be Well, I wanted to tell them what I thought but The decision was already made because they've been talking about this for three weeks on On their computers And so those are fair criticisms. I you know, I think that those are all things that we need to figure out So I say implementation, but so I'm saying explore it. I'm not saying no, but There are some concerns What do we I'm trying to think of like next steps to your team So we want to go with this I would be happy to make a motion that we direct city staff to Reach out for an advisory opinion to the secretary of state's office about The current state of the law and and what Nuance may exist there to allow for something like this Hi second fan That's so that's okay. All right. All right further discussion Okay, all in favor, please say I I opposed Thank you All right So before we go off that topic I don't I don't know if that Has to be the end of it because I suspect that Either they'll take longer than we want them to to Give us an advisory opinion or more likely they'll quite very quickly say Yeah, this isn't allowed under current law. So So I I think cotton suggestion of inviting Jim condos to come in and just Be part of the discussion While that's going on might be a good idea And I'm not making a motion. I'm just thinking if someone wants to do it I I think that would be fine if we can express, you know, our Our realities to him and say, you know, what, you know, where can we go with this? Yeah, I'd be I'd be interested in that In my mind, it's already mid-march and So I don't think we could do anything before that which means, you know, I wouldn't be here but I just wanted to plant the seed and you know, I think that it's it's something that might be useful to some future councils and some future committees and so If you guys, you know, go through this process and find that it doesn't seem workable And you can't figure out a way to address some of these challenges and that's fine. We've talked about it and I won't be offended Well, let's look into that When when we can so Great Okay, so thank you all. All right. I think that wraps up our regular Business, so we're going to use some council reports. Then we have Other reports and then we're going to have a couple of three. Yes Three executive session topics and I don't think we're going to be no no action Have no action coming out of that so in case who would like to start with council reports I'm going to just pick on someone with no volunteers like glenn Come tomorrow morning to baguillos Um, I think that's all I have this week. Thanks Good con scooter survey in the field. I also should have some stance for you in the coming weeks Um, also, uh, I dropped the ball in this while ago, but resurrected that sister city committee there Uh, so Philip tom apple, there'll be uh at the helm of that working with harris webster Hopefully generates my ideas and maybe not too soon, but just have a discussion council nice Donna We have definitely some people on the transportation committee who'd like to be on the scooters So people have been asking just so you know the interest is there Sure To evaluate and okay Today there was a good meeting despite the weather on the microchance it and there is a lot of research being done with land use as well as Marketing and looking at it much more holistically as a demand response Very interesting group. And I think I'm pleased that it's made a lot of progress out of just a narrow focus To be much more expansive of all transit users and all transit systems. So It's good. Cool. Great Uh, can we So you know to rosie? um, I just wanted to use the opportunity to Try and pass on some issues that I've been thinking about that. I never really got a chance to um to finish up We approved the uh certificate of highway mileage today, which made me remember that ledgwood terrace is still in a limbo state This is a street that we have not officially accepted as a city street because of some weird stuff with the developer tom mccartle is very knowledgeable about this and it is on his list But I just want to remind the council of this I don't want, you know 50 years from now to have some of those issues that we had earlier this year with a different street I don't want that to crop up And so it would behoove the council to make sure that this is addressed in the Somewhat near future. It's not an urgent issue, but it's one of those things to remember And to eventually have it in a place where the city can accept it as an official street I'm sure the the residents of ledger terrace would love to Have that solidified Along those same Not not really the same lines. Um, but in the same discussion that I had with with um bill and tom Um, the city owns a parcel on berlin street That was a contaminated site that the city ended up Taking under its control and doing some remediation work I believe as you're going up berlin street, it is kind of that grassy piece of land on the left And it's just a city-owned piece of land that we've done remediation on And you know kind of on tom's non-urgent list So, you know, he's got lots of urgent things So I'm not sure that it's a high priority Was to kind of look into it and see if there was anything that we could do with it at this point in terms of, you know Has it been Remediated enough to be able to do something with it I think it's an intriguing little piece of land because maybe it could be at some point a city park A playground or something like that Right now we're just mowing it So just passing that on keeping your brains It would you know, I'd like to fully utilize all our city resources And so that's one underutilized potentially city resource. Can you just say where it is again? It's on berlin street. I think we have it currently as number zero berlin street because it doesn't have an address It's like a cross from 165 167 in that neighborhood it used to be called the There was used to be a building there. It was called the creamery Okay uphill from the if you drive up the hill, there's a there's like a tan ranch house on the left and or uncle avine used to live and It's just past that Cool I'll check that out. So I just wanted to put that on your radar. It was something that I kind of been in discussions I'm sure that you know, tom has been swamped with everything else. So it's not a high priority But um, could be an interesting thing to to work on at some point. Thank you Jack um Speaking of tom being swamped. I've just had had a couple of constituent issues where people have Contacted me and had had a complaint or a concern about something. I've uh forwarded those to the To the manager and I'm always very impressed by the promptness of the response from the manager and the other Department heads Uh, I would echo what jack said. I I got some emails that I passed along and tom responded and sent very thoughtful responses Despite being out completely straight for the last several weeks Um And another thing but I forgot Okay for enough I'm gonna pass. I don't have anything to report And clerk just left so he wants to come back and afterwards or when he comes back he has something to say great I don't have a lot to remind you. We are meeting next Wednesday to Continue our conversation from last week Great And then I have more to say shortly Uh, okay Tom, uh, I wonder if you want to just like pop her head in the door right there to see if john has anything to See if see john odham is there. I would hate to like close the meeting without giving him an opportunity He's cutting Right and he else he is also keeping minutes so But if he's not there, you know Sounds like he's there I'm 30 seconds here Would you like to do you have any report there, sir? Oh just that early voting is incredibly slow. Come on everybody come out But also i'm glad you meant this certificate of highway mileage. I did not get the original handed to me to pass around So I just made me think I always put people to give me the things so I just printed out Something that I hope will do which is the image of it. I know you're supposed to send the original Didn't get it. So I would just pass this around and maybe everybody can sign it and I hope it'll be good enough what works for tom Okay, um, great. So that is the end of Our business or in public session tonight So, um, do we have a motion to go into executive session? I would move that we go into executive session to discuss personnel Uh and real estate real estate and litigation Litigation matters uh pursuant to one vsa section 3 17 3 13 A one subsection a one e a two and a four Okay, there's a second, um All in favor, but you say I I opposed Great, and we will not be returning to public session. We have no actions to take. All right. Thank you very much