 All right. Well, hello everybody. Welcome to Brain Club. I think there may actually be some folks I don't know yet, so I will introduce myself. I'm Mel Hauser, she-they. I'm executive director here at AllBrain's Belong, Vermont. Welcome to Brain Club. I'm going to share screen and walk us through some introductory remarks and then we will get started. Okay. So designing a work life that works for your brain. As many of you know, the third week of every month is our neuro-inclusive employment themed Brain Club. And we've been doing this particular one off and on probably since last June. Jenny Blair, I'm pretty sure that was the that was your first Brain Club was the original designing a work life that works for your brain come full circle. So we're going to hear from a prerecorded panel of community members talking about how to design a life works for your brain and then we'll have lots of time for discussion. But first by way of introduction, all forms of participation are okay here. You can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we certainly don't expect anything of you. You do not need to look at the camera. You can eat and stim and fidget and move and all the things and everyone is welcome. A word about language, you will hear me and maybe other people, but at least me, using identity first language. For example, I am autistic because for me, being autistic is part of my identity. And everyone is welcome to use the language that that works for them to describe their own selves. Speaking of communication, you can communicate however you're most comfortable. You can unmute and speak out loud. You can type in the chat box, you can gesture, you can do any of the above mix match. And I'll just say that safety is a really essential ingredient for neuro inclusive spaces. So in addition to affirming all aspects of identity here, we are all about respecting and protecting one another's access needs. And related to that, we like to establish the ground rule that today is for education purposes only. This is not for medical advice and that individual traumatic experiences are best processed in a therapeutic setting. Last bit of access. Close captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on what version of Zoom you have, choose either the live transcript CC button. Or if you don't see that as an option, try the more dot, dot, dot and choose show subtitles. And you can do the same thing and choose hide subtitles if you'd like to turn them off. All right, before we get started, just an announcement. So lives in the balance, which is a nonprofit in in Maine, recently created a documentary. They came down to Vermont. They interviewed educators and families and healthcare professionals from the ABV village, all about seclusion and restraint in Vermont public schools. And so, Sarah, if you can just put we're just trying to spread the word about this, just put content warning, there's restraint and seclusion, and talking about trauma in this in this video. So just before you if Sarah is going to post the link, only click on it if if just with the awareness of those content. And we're just trying to spread the word because there are at least at least 587 sweet little loves in the state of Vermont secluded each and or restrained each year in Vermont. And this is these practices are disproportionately used against children of color and children with disabilities. So we think it's really important to spread the word that this is what's happening in Vermont. All right, let's get started with our topic. So as many of you know, our philosophy here at all brains belong is that in order to make life better for the neurodivergent community, we have to do everything and employment is part of health. So it's not just medical care, it's social connection, it's accessing education and accessing employment. And what we know is that as many as 80% of neurodivergent adults are unemployed. And and there's data all over the place, it may be, you know, it may be less than that, but that's a number that gets reported. Also, that autistic adults are four times more likely to be unemployed than non autistic adults. And what we know is that employment is linked to health outcomes. Being employed at any level does not need to be full time employment employment at any level is associated with half the amount of mental distress. And this this this makes sense. There's the financial impact of unemployment. There's the psychological impact of unemployment. This is part of health. And when we think about what goes into workplaces, that for for people with all types of brains to thrive. This is what we've learned so far. We've on a neuro inclusive employment, bright spotting program here at all brains belong for the past year and change. And this is what we have found when Vermonters nominate local employers who are creating environments of of for people all types of brains to thrive. This in week we contact them, we figure out what they do. And and what they do actually matches what's in the literature about what goes into creating neuro inclusive workspaces, accounting for variables in the environment, culture, flexibility, routines. And what we know is that many neuro divergent people do not exist in workplace environments like this. When we think about disability, as we know, for the, you know, the last 25, 30 years, the World Health Organization has defined disability, according to the social model of disability, where the issue is an inaccessible world, the amount of disability that someone experiences is relative to the barriers in the environment. And when we think about how we all have access needs, access needs being anything that a person needs for full participation. And people with all types of brains have access needs. And neuro divergent people are less likely to have those access needs met by the defaults of society. And when we think about access need considerations at work, whether that be, you know, in the environment, maybe that's sensory processing related communication, executive functioning, technology, mobility and motor coordination, the way that instructions are presented, how fast in what format, how people are supervised, it's like, so it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's how fast in what format, how people are supervised, it's like so much stuff. And what we don't want, we don't want the square peg being hammered in to the round hole, because what happens, you break the peg. And that is what's happening for so many neurodivergent people in their workspaces. We're really looking for the opposite of this. So this is Dr. Thomas Armstrong book called the power of neurodiversity uses the term called niche construction, which is that you figure out how your brain works, and you design a life that works for your brain. That's like the opposite of the square peg getting hammered into the round hole. So when we think about how might you do that? That's what we're going to talk about tonight. We're going to talk about like, how do you even begin to start? That's an avatar of me. I have the kind of brain that's always thinking about brains. So part of my niche construction is that my work is to talk about brains, because that's what I'm thinking about all day. That is not, that may not be fully realistic to have the, I mean, it's a level of privilege to be able to have a match for your monotropic focus and your employment. But that's not, like, there's stuff in between. There's stuff where once we figure out what our access needs are, can we reflect on our current situation? What's working well? What's not working? What could work better and get closer, like incremental progress toward niche construction? So as I said, everybody has access needs. There's all different types of access needs. And so these are going to be some prompts to reflect on some of these things, because a lot of times people have never thought about this. People have never thought about like, what are my access needs? Like that's, what do you mean? I just show up and I try to do the thing. So often it might be working backwards. Sarah, can you post the link in the chat? We just made an Instagram post about this, if you'd like to access these slides. So it might be working backwards. So what's not working might be like, when is my battery drained? When am I exhausted? When am I stressed? When do I shut down? When am I flipping my lid yelling at people? When do I doubt myself? This may be related to unmet access needs. Step two, what is working? Well, maybe we don't recognize what those access needs are, but maybe if we kind of think about, you know, what gives me dopamine, what makes me feel alive? What's my zone of genius? What can I do effortlessly, where I feel really good about it while I'm doing this? Maybe we're not at a place where we can reflect on when I feel at ease, but maybe when do I feel at least neutral or less awful than usual? What charges my battery? This may be that your access needs are being met when these things are true. And then lastly, what could be working better? What does my nervous system require to feel safe? Where do I have autonomy or agency? Are there changes I can make on my own without needing to involve others? Of course, there are lots of instances where you do need to involve others. And then of course, we have the considerations of conflicting access needs. But if there are changes that you can make it to start without needing to involve others, sometimes those are the initial incremental steps toward niche construction. How do I balance my battery drain versus my battery charge? So these are big questions, but we want to provide a framework for designing a work life that works for your brain. And now we will hear from our community panelists. David, take it away. So what we've been talking about this whole month at Brain Club is that the idea is by learning your own brain, learning about your own strengths, your own challenges, you can strive for niche construction, which is designing a life based on your own brain's needs and strengths. And so all through the month of June, we've talked about this concept. We've talked about access needs. We've talked about communication, communicating these access needs. We've talked about supports and services that that can facilitate our creating our best lives. And now tonight, we will apply this concept to employment. The concept is that by getting to know your own brain, you can then reflect on your current situation, what's working well, what's not working, what would work better. So if, for example, you have the kind of brain that is constantly thinking and talking about brains, well, you might quit your job and start a nonprofit where you get to think and talk about brains all day. That's an example of niche construction. But short of that, we are going to hear from panelists today to talk about what this process has been like in their own lives. Oh, screenshot it. Oh, yeah, it gets recorded. Oh, for sure, totally. So what goes into designing a neuro inclusive workplace? And all brains belong, one of our community projects is a neuro inclusive employment break spotting program where we are, it's still open, looking for nominations from community members to nominate remote employers that are using concepts of inclusive design to create environments where all brains can thrive. And what this what we've done, we contact them, study them and interview them and learn from their experience. And so what we have found thus far, which it's the concepts that come out in the research to, which is that what goes into a neuro inclusive workplace, the physical environment, getting sensory processing and motor related access, communication style, the culture, having meaningful work, those of us with dopamine bound brains, where we have interest dependent learning and engagement and motor coordination and executive functioning. So meaning is a common source of dopamine, having flexibility and choices, autonomy, and flexibility in workflows and routines. All too often there is a default workflow, a default routine that everyone is expected to follow, you know, because there's one right brain. No, no, there's not. And so if you have one default pathway, and someone has the kind of brain for whom that does not come naturally, that is not neuro inclusive. So when I do trainings for for organizations trying to improve their neuro inclusivity, we talk about like the simplest lens to view this is, are there defaults? Are there defaults in recruitment, interviewing, the whole hiring process? Are there defaults in the way that people are supervised, the way feedbacks are provided, the way meetings are? Anytime there is a default, everyone else is altered. I'm Tracy. I started my own neurodivergent journey, I guess, like probably two years ago. I've been in my current job as an assistive technology specialist for seven years. And I didn't know much about neurodivergence. All I've heard, all I had heard was of, you know, autism and ADHD and they were in their own little silos. And I didn't see myself reflected in the definitions in that community, because they weren't really shown there. But I got connected with one of my clients, I think, who I was just talking with, and there's so much in common, which threw me down a rabbit hole. And I did a lot of research on it and realized that I had a lot of internalized ableism around my own life. And here I was working in the disability community, not realizing that, you know, I was trying slowly to solve all of my own quirks. And that's how I ended up in my job. Luckily, this job fell in my lab. It's a great job for me. I get tons of dopamine from my job. I get to solve problems on the daily and they're short sometimes. But they're so interesting. I love working with people in this capacity. And luckily, that's been part of my niche construction is this job that I just kind of fell into. And I found no pushback. I mean, I work in the disability community. So obviously my supervisors are welcoming when I say I need this or this works better for me or the more confidence I brought to that, the more explicit I was about the tools, the accommodations that I needed, the less pushback I got. I didn't present myself as a person with a disability and then expected someone else to solve the problem for me. I brought my accommodations to the table and said, here's what I need. And I think that for an employer, that's easy to handle. This person says I need XYZ. Okay, I don't have to think about it. And that works pretty nicely. But yeah, I've been working on curbing my own internalized ableism, working with my executive functioning instead of against it, because every article that you read about time management and to do lists, they don't really work for my brain. So just turning that around and not going into the shame spiral that Mel described where why can't you just do this brain? Why can't you just be that way? And being like, oh, no, it's because you just need to be this way. And it's fine. It's like solved a lot of problems and a lot of relationships at work and otherwise. So that's, that's me. Don't really know what else to say. I'm curious, Tracy, in your professional life, do you come across lots of folks who are not achieving each construction in their work? Yeah. And I mean, before I had this job, I worked, I've had lots of jobs, but when I used to have a management position, and I would find myself hiring people who now I can see were neurodivergent. And they just, it was a horrible fit. And I would be like, you need, you need to do something more interesting, because what you're doing now is making you miserable, which is making me miserable. So you should go do something else. I'm not firing you, but you should go somewhere else. And that happens with my clients too, where they come in and, you know, their accommodation list is 900 pages long, like their dream accommodation list for this job. And I'm like, but do you want this job? Do you like this job? Like question number one. So yeah, I think with folks with dopamine-bound brains, like finding something that's interesting and that you like, especially in this employment market is ideal. Yes. All right. I am going to queue up a video. Oops, no, don't start playing the video yet. I always say that part of my own niche construction should be that, because we really do have a culture of interdependence here, like it is totally normal and ideal to be connected with other people and rely on one another. So I have, that was, that was, that was a, that was a brain rule I had to unlearn because of how independence is glorified, like autonomy is essential. But independence is a brain rule. Okay. And with my experiences, now just for example, a child care workforce sector, I'm actually an early education teacher, I'm actually a teacher. But the way that workforce looks at me as, they look at me very, very strange. They look at me as, why is there a man in an early education child care workforce? Which usually that's predominantly held by women. But for me, it's the reason why I joined that workforce is the love and compassion I have for all students of Vermont. Clearly, I love that work, that type of work. And being discriminated against within that field is a, is a problem. It really is. It's not only a society problem, it's a Vermont problem. As you can see, it's, you know, it's ingrained everywhere where we work, you know, in our workforce. For me, it's very, very disturbing that the workforce is, you know, of Vermont as a whole, is starting to see a lot more declines and turnovers than actually having people hired that want to be welcome into the workforce. And with me, it's probably because reason why I can't get hired or there's a lot of, there's a lot of barriers to that. One is you're on SSI and SSDI programs. There's already barriers to that. And they will let you know that if you proceed or go toward a foreign planet, we will cut your benefits off. They don't, they do not care if it's even a part-time job no more. They updated that. If you get a job, they'll cut it off. It's just, you know, on people that, you know, that really want to, you know, be self independent. And they can't get that if the workforce or the society of, you know, of these programs or services are going to work for them. That's an accessibility problem too as well. I, you know, I'm just here because so I am autistic and I did not know this until a few years ago, about three, two years ago. And so, you know, I've been navigating most of this, not realizing I was autistic, kind of knowing I had, I was, I guess I knew I was neuro, not neuro conforming or I was neuro divergent. But I mean, I will get into the whole long story of my misdiagnosis and everything else. But basically, you know, I've, I've, as an ecologist, I've worked lots of different jobs, to some extent, just from being autistic and bouncing around for various reasons or things not being good fits. But they're also just because that's kind of how a lot of ecology, especially early career ecology does all jobs are designed. And of course, you know, I want to caveat that I've got all kinds of like luck and privilege and everything else. And it's a hard field. And I got into it in a time it was easier. And a lot of people who are I'm sure better at it than me aren't here, you know, so I want to recognize that. But just also, you know, I just wanted to be here to kind of be thinking about the different, you know, since I've had all these different jobs, my current one is like, amazing. And it was the job I was at when I found out I was autistic, and I've talked about it with my supervisor and my co workers. And it's been this really affirming and amazing experience, which is so different from what I hear about from others. And you know, it might be because I'm a white man, you know, I'm basically a gender, but I male looking and I am obsessed with weather and plant. I'm kind of a walking autistic stereotype, which is why it's kind of funny. I wasn't diagnosed. But that being said, you know, it's been really affirming. And I think at other jobs, it would not have gone that way. And I know it wouldn't hasn't for a lot of other people. Yeah, it's, I think I'm really lucky. And I have started talking about it with other people around the state of Vermont. And I have been really surprised. I, you know, when I kind of came out of the autism closet or whatever you want to call it, I had no idea that there was really a stigma. Like, and I just was high autistic. And you know, so I'm running around. And then I find out no one else that were at I'm the agency of natural resources. I don't know of any other person who is openly and I know there are people who are neurodivergent. But I don't know of anyone else who is openly autistic. And there are not very many everyone it is very white and there are not I know there are people who are LGBT and oftentimes aren't disclosing it. I had several people tell me they were ADHD after I did a little brown bag talk with people, I did a little talk with people about being autistic. And that was kind of how I told everyone. And people came up to me and told me they had ADHD or other things. But yeah, it's just this kind of I'm a little scared. But so far it's been great. But also I'm just interested in other people's experiences. I remember when I was working at a child care center, my position was as a floater, which meant that I didn't know what was needed of me or expected of me or what my day was going to look like until I was there. And I remember having a big conversation with my boss and being like, Okay, this next year around, I can't handle this. And I feel that my my showing up here, my attendance and being good employee is being impacted when I don't know what's expected of me. We had this big wrong talk. And then she like reformatted it that floaters would be assigned to specific rooms. So you would have at least know where you were going to be who you were going to be working with and everything. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's so amazing. And then I remember having, oh, and it like, Oh, man, it puts a little ache in in my chest. I remember feeling so like proud of that and everything. And then walking by and hearing someone be like, You mean I have to do the same thing every day. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I just ruined that person's life. Like, now that person is going to have to do the same thing every day. And it's all my fault. Because you know, I have a control over all of their feelings. But yeah, so be the idea of being able to have more freedom of what is expected of you in the day, be it someone who needs something different or someone who needs to be able to replay it over and over again on the way there what they're going to do is that would be incredible. Yeah, I have a question. So I'm a I'm a nursing professor. So I teach nursing students and a lot of them have accommodations. It's a growing number of people that have accommodations for things like quiet testing environment and extra time on tests and things like that. And a common conversation among faculty is, you know, there aren't these accommodations in in the real world of nursing. So how do we prepare our students to be in this environment? Are we doing it? The conversation is always that we're doing them a disservice by which is ridiculous. But the question still stands that how do we prepare people and prepare like that environment seems to be making very little change in any sort of fast direction. And I guess it's, you know, how do we help set people up? Like Matthew, you're talking about all the things that floaters do and the things that teachers do. Like what can we tangibly do to help with that transition from school to workplace in ways that are going to set people up for success and enjoyment and fulfillment in their careers? And I can, I can, Laura, I can just chime in from like a healthcare provider standpoint and, you know, just because I think this really relates to brain rules versus world rules pretty much because everything does like it is a brain rule that you get thrown to the wolves and that that's the end goal for your professional life. Like that makes no sense. So if you are, you know, actually I have two things I would say to your to your question. By the way, there's a, yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, we agree, your daughter is adorable Charlie. Anyway, so, so, you know, in when we think about accommodations, we are not giving extra advantage over other people. What we are doing is we are taking a barrier to access, and we are making that barrier less. So we are not saying, okay, nursing student, you are getting extra time on a test which gives you an advantage over other people. We are saying that because of the way your brain attends, reads, writes, whatever it is, we are giving you a workaround for your brain to be able to do the thing. So when we, as a person with disability, when we have a job, we also need to have those things. We need to look at any barriers to access and meaningful participation and accommodations need to be specific for that they're not random. So it's not like a thing you get just because you're a student and do the thing if you still need the thing, you get the thing. That's disability inclusion, that's how that goes. The other thing I would say, and then I was like, Mel, Mel's got their hand up. So this idea that you will be in a healthcare environment that has a default, that's not going to end well, right? So if, so like, you know, in medicine, and I imagine in nursing, there's different choices of your environment. When the environment is a mismatch for your brain, you are not going to have a good life. So, you know, it is probably very important for someone to know when an environment, when a culture, when a sensory experience is not a good fit for their life. And I work in the construction world and I'm actually a consultant to a lot of construction companies. And so through learning more about my son, I started to realize how prevalent neurodiversity is amongst my clients and their, and their employees, like many, if not most of them. And a lot of the work we do is about supporting business owners to have more successful companies, you know, and a better work environment, better work cultures. And so one of the things I've really grappled with is in particular, there's often a transition that happens where people work in the trades, like on the job site. And if they show any signs of leadership or good communication or leadership, organizational skills, then they're often promoted into a leadership position. And something I've seen happen frequently, and I'm not sure how to address it in our work, is there's this very specific definition of what, like a lead carpenter or site super or project manager should look like. And they're often taking people from the trades who may or may not be neurodiverse and trying to move them into this. And it's a lot of my work is supporting people to become project managers or to gain leadership skills. And I guess where I struggle and where I see employers struggle is what, what is part of the job, you know, and the skills required as part of the job and, and when they're being reviewed, like in a performance review, and saying things like, oh, this person's disorganized or this person's not able to stay on top of these tasks or their communication doesn't look like we want it to look. It becomes very complicated, particularly when there's someone who isn't necessarily diagnosed. And so there can't, there can't be the same kind of conversation around accommodations. One, when you talk about like successful companies or better culture, like being, like, like operationalizing that would be helpful. Like what does success look like? And kind of like reframing what success looks like? Because it might be that success doesn't mean you get promoted on this default track. Maybe success means that you, it's the niche construction is your success. Meaning like, what are the things in the environment, the culture, the communication that make that individual person feel self-actualized? Right? So there's that, because what ends up happening a lot of times is that, you know, within a given set of demands, the brain can do the thing. And then you keep taxing and taxing and taxing. And then finally, when it is that your capacity becomes outstripped by your demands, then things start getting dropped through the cracks. And so then, and then, because we have so many brain rules, meaning things we think are universal truths, but are not, those people get judged and shamed, you're lazy, you're defective, you're not motivated, you're disengaged, you're this, when really you are actual, you've depleted your cognitive resources, because your reserves have been outstripped by your demands. And so when we think about, you know, the myths of what it is to be a good leader of the brain rules of leadership, which is that, yeah, exacerbated by masking pressure to mask is going to further deplete your reserves. Anyway, so now, and then the brain rules of leadership are such that, well, now I have to do the thing and I have the pressure to do the thing and I'm expecting to do the thing independently, but really, we want to think about a culture of interdependence, where the person who has the responsibilities, those responsibilities are supported, accommodated, shared, like even me, I like run a nonprofit and like my executive functioning is outstripped on a daily basis. And I have people that help me do most things here, because otherwise I can't, my disability would be completely incompatible of being an independent professional, that, you know, we can come together and support one another in shifting the community culture. And we have the opportunity for like this next generation to not have to unlearn stuff if they just learn it the right way, the right way, which is that there is no right way. Like, I mean, can you even imagine if like little kids actually learned in preschool that there's no right way to think, learn and communicate, and it's like the only thing they've ever learned. Right. And then the chat, the amount of suffering this would prevent, absolutely. Because, you know, in 2022, I have six year old patients who are already getting the message that they are broken and defective and they're not doing the thing. And so anyway, and that's honestly just like my own story in the setting of autistic burnout of having an employment situation that was not working for my brain. I was also envisioning like I had a then three year old and I really wanted her to grow up in a completely different culture where like she we've been talking about brains since she's two. And she knows she's autistic. She's proud of her brain. She walks around. She's just like, I have a kind of brain that needs vestibular input right now. She's amazing. And like, it's just yeah, shout out to Luna for being incredible. Absolutely. And like, all the little kids like all the little kids even typically developing kids who I'm just like, did you know that we all have different brains? And they're like, Oh, sweet. And like, even a typically developing kid who's like, he picks up a toy and like does a thing with it. I'm like, Oh, that's so interesting that your brain did that with it. My brain did this with it. And like little Johnny this morning, not little Johnny because of HIPAA, but like, you know, somebody, somebody else did something else with it. Um, like, we all have different brains. And they're like, Oh, cool. So that's how it could be. So there we have it. Sarah, you've been so patient. Are you still available? Oh, no, no worries. I just, I'm sorry, just just screwed up. I just, I mean, I, I am one of the things that struck me in the, in the reading it was, or in the, in the video was the question about sort of, you know, what, what do professionals do? How can professionals help or teachers, how can teachers help students? And, and, and I, and I think also how the, you know, in some ways it's also like, I talked to therapists, you know, how can we help clients? And I, and I think it, I mean, I just think it there's more than training it as an end of preparing an individual. I think it's about like the professional community actually advocating for the scene needs because the professional community has like, like the culture that we're in does not necessarily value the voice. It values the voice of professionals far more than it values the voice of individuals who are, who are quote unquote, afflicted with the condition. And so, and so it, and so like the professionals advocating does two things. One, professionals and clients can advocate together. So the professionals advocating or professionals and clients, teachers and students, the whoever that the said expert is advocating, then gives the student a model for advocacy. And, and, and I just think it's much more effective change model is actually professionals who would see the issues taking up the cause, instead of putting instead of expecting individual students to be prepared for an essentially hostile culture. I think that the change needs to be more systemic and, and anyway, amen. Right. I think that that that's that's the problem. And so you say like, oh, the real world is a hostile culture. Like, how about we create a new real world? Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and the power and privilege to advocate is really much more with the professional community than it is with the individuals who are, are a part of the, the discriminated minority. So use the advocates. So the professionals using the power and privilege that they that professionals have to advocate and to, and to, and to, and to validate the reality of students is to the public. I mean, the professionals have an incredible amount of power to validate the reality of, of people who are struggling in a way that we can't validate our own reality that, that, that, and it's hard to give ourselves credibility in the way that people who have hard seed next experts in our culture can, can validate, can validate that and, and lift us up. So, and professionals need to acknowledge that the value of lived experience and elevate that. That is part of continuous learning. I'm reading. Yeah, if you all are elevated to the level, and if professionals elevate the value of lived experience and you won't have to advocate for us to not advocate for us so much. That's right. Right. Because there is you know, the medical education, for example, and only one type of professional, but, you know, medical education is stuck in the 1900s narrative of autism, for example, like we talked about last week. And that's that the, the, the, what we learned from autistic people lived experiences that that is traumatic and bad for health. Natalie. Hi, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, well, Laura, this question, this answer was directed at you that I went to nursing school, and I had accommodations in nursing school. And the accommodations were so helpful. Because I was able to participate in the tests and you know, get the grades that I got. But I think having those accommodations and then trusting that the nursing students will move into nurse, nurse positions that work for them. That's not the professors. It shouldn't be like the paternal professors perspective that like you're not setting them up for success in the real world. Because I started as a home health nurse, and it was a terrible fit for me. I was always going to a new place, a new patient, and prep prep work that was given to me like 10 minutes before I was expected to go to the patient's house. But then I moved into surgical nursing and did abortion care for five years. And all we did was 100% abortion care. And I loved it. It was like a factory. And I knew exactly what to expect. I know I had like, you know, the different gestational ages helped to provide like some, some interest and difference. But I knew that like I knew the procedure, I knew the assessments. And so my, I didn't, I didn't say that I have an autism diagnosis, but like the autism piece of that like played into what profession I chose. Because I, you know, had my autonomy to choose what position I was moving into. And so in short, sorry, I feel like it's not, it's not the professor's job to set the student nurse up by throwing them into the situation where they don't have their testing accommodations. Because, you know, we can self select into our profession. So yeah, I just wanted to share that story. Thanks for listening. Thank you, Natalie. I think that's really, I mean, it's really important in all fields. Like I had a conversation with one of one of our board members today, who is a educator in working with like transition age, like high school age students. And like thinking about really from, from how early can we start just having a conversations around like just your future? Like what are the things you like? What are the things you don't like? Like what are the environments where you're comfortable and starting those conversations as early as possible in childhood? And like having that lens be something that anyone of all ages and all fields can can burn with them and self select. And again, that is there's there's all the layers of privilege that go into having having those things be a match for someone's work life. And I think it's still there's still variables that I think are important to be talking about. Reading in the chat, I'm going to scroll backwards. Christina says, it's true that that the one that is listened to or the one with the credentials, despite the fact that the impacted individual does often know what the real issue is, and there's a respect for the title over the voice of the individual scrolling. I'm going in reverse order. Aspen says, as a professional entering the field soon, it feels so much bigger than me, hard to advocate for myself and hard to know how to effectively leverage my power and privilege to advocate for my clients. A letter doesn't feel enough. Yeah. And I think, you know, as you know, in whatever field someone's in, I think that like, when you surround yourself with like minded people, that's I mean, not only is, you know, do you have the co regulation experience of having like, more full and complete access to your own cortex to strategize and like, say what he's saying and do what he's doing. But it also I think influences like your, your, your reality, like the real world. I mean, there's no like objective real world, like everyone's own experience is, is their reality. It's all reality, but it's like the people you surround yourself with are ultimately going to influence what your real world is. So in, in, in, as we were watching these video interviews, a lot of people were sharing in the chat that there's just concerns around asking for what they need. And the fear of both asking for what they need, and the fear of not asking and then burning out. What do folks think about that? Reading the chat, Laura says, how can we better support students with accommodations for how to advocate for those supports in the workplace after graduation? Right. I have the kind of brain that does really well when X is in place. I have the kind of brain that needs X. I think it's really challenging, Mel, in some instances, to like, ask for the accommodations, sort of, especially if you're, especially if you're in a position where you can do the job, like, but I guess, I guess, like what you said, it depends upon who you're surrounded with and who you're surrounded by, because sometimes asking for your access needs in a setting where you don't necessarily have to disclose your disability works. And then other cases you would have to, but there are so many barriers to actually being able to go down a path where you can actually get designated as a disability. It's like a barrier for a lot of people to even be able to have that first step. So it's like very challenging to know what path to go down. Ultimately, the best thing would be to find a job that's a good fit, but that is still a privileged position for a lot of people. Yes, it is. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. I'm just reading in the chat. Emily says it's important to talk about the working conditions in addition to the duties. Yes. Emily says she studied ecology and love science, but decided not to pursue after research because couldn't tolerate the sensory aspects. And yes, that's why, like, you know, part of neuro-inclusive employment is describing what the job is, not just the list of like the wrote essential duties, but like this is what daily life is like. It's bi-directional disclosure. It's like this is what this is. Like, do you want to do this? Jade says, I think a tough battle for me is that I might have an idea of what I might need, but it doesn't have all the specifics worked out. And asking for something knowing I might need to ask for modifications or changes, it can sound, it can feel really, really draining in your head. Yeah, it's, yes. And so I think this is, it comes back to relationship. Do you feel safe in a relationship with an employer to be able to have these conversations? Like, I think this would really help. I'd like to try this for the next two weeks and check back in. And if that's, if the employment relationship, the employer-employee relationship is not safe. And I think, I think people know. I think when people are afraid to ask, it's because that relationship's not safe, that environment's not safe. Anna says, it's hard to exist in an environment where asking for access is difficult and feels wrong. Yup. And when you don't ask for access needs and burnout, I feel it's difficult not to blame yourself for burning out rather than ask yourself what exists in the system that pushes you away from advocating for your needs and how you can advocate to change the system. Yeah, you're describing the impact of internalized ableism, I think. And so when, and right now, so often, like something happens and the first, the automatic response is to blame oneself, Eany. I'm just realizing that it feels like sometimes if you ask for accommodations and people are willing to do it, but they don't have a deep understanding of why you need, you have the access need. And so then you have to keep reminding or it's like, it's like an ongoing thing, right? And so I, when I was social worker, I was, I realized now I was in the beginning of autistic burnout, excuse me. And the, my employer kept accommodating me, but because they didn't understand what actually was happening for me and didn't have curiosity, the accommodations they were making weren't, weren't correct. So I ended up having to leave the job, ultimately left the field. But I think that it's like, when we talk, you know, talk about urgency culture or pacing, or, you know, and I think a lot of mass autistics feel like they have to justify their existence. I know I did, like, I have to prove myself, I have to, so I end up using compensation over my actual superpower, you know, so everything is a compensation. And so that's the exhausting part because it's not naturally coming from my gifts. I'm trying to pretend to be the thing that people want. Just a thought. I want to just pause right there, because I think that, I think that'll resonate with a lot of people. And I think, you know, these topics we talk about at Brain Club, like everything's connected to everything. And, you know, I think what you just said connects to the comment Anna just made, like, you know, when your identity is your mask, and it's not safe for it to be any, any different, that's, that's an equation that you can't win either way. And which is why it all comes back to the relationship, it all comes back to the safety of the environment. And I think that, you know, if you're in a working situation that is unsafe, it's, it's, it's about what agency, what, what autonomy do you have to get yourself safer. And that may not be quitting your job, because it may not be safe to not have a job, right. So it's, but, but, but it's, it's something, it's not just like suck it up and push through because this is my dream job, I threw out a lot of like, this is my dream job, it's like this on paper, but like the actual job is maybe not the match for the one on paper. Because if you're not feeling safe at work, nothing else good will come from this. Well, I know for me, just to say, I know for me, a huge part of when I can access space is when I can make the connection back to myself. And I think if we're trying to, we're off, I'm often trying to make connection to the outside world of like, how am I being perceived to stay safe. But I, it's, it's, it would be so nice that people are trying to, to help me find access to myself so that I could then understand. And I think that is part of the culture that's so fast. And it seems like, you know, people aren't just trying to get it. Or they, they're, they're not, we're, I feel like so often I have to enter the, you know, neurotypical world, but I don't often find that people are entering the neurodivergent world. But when it's true, it's like, it's a whole new world. Like the rainbows come out of the sunshine, you know, because, and then there's like brilliance and, you know, creativity. And so that's always confounding to me is like, why don't people want sunshine and rainbows? Yup. Or they, I think that people do want sunshine and rainbows. They just don't realize that their present reality is like contraindicated to sunshine, rainbows, inclusion, safety, all of that. And I think that, you know, as, as we wrap up today, I think that, you know, this, this, Amy, what you said about, you know, my employer did not understand why this is a really nice segue to next week's spring club. So it's going to be the last week of the month is book chat. We're going to be doing a book chat on uniquely human by Barry Prozant. And even if you haven't read the book, I definitely encourage you to come. The premise of uniquely human, which is one of my favorite books of all time. It's really about seeing autism through a lens of rather than like condemning and judging behavior, you know, can we wonder why can we be curious why something is happening as reflecting of underlying access needs. So I hope to see you there. Thank you all so much for coming. Thank you for this wonderful conversation.