 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Noor. Today, my guest is Tom Leonard, the creator and host of Gamer's Change Lives Podcast. Our topic is eSports Changemakers, lessons from interviewing the experts. Welcome, Tom. Hey, thanks for having me, Catherine. All right, and thank you for substituting as host a number of times. I really appreciate it. Anyone that gives me a chance to talk is like it's on then. All right. So you have a, your podcast, Gamer's Change Lives has been going on for over 60 episodes. I understand. Tell us about it. Yeah. We've been doing it for 60 episodes. We had three seasons. We're getting ready for our fourth season. The first season was whoever we can talk to. The second season was follow the money. We're talking to investors, talking to sponsors. And season three was more about eSports 101, more about business topics out there. So we're getting ready to launch season four, and it's been great. What are you focusing on in season four? What we think we're going to be talking about is we want to talk about accelerators and incubators. Because one of the things that so many eSports entrepreneurs, so many entrepreneurs, it really in any genre, they're always looking for to up their business skills. And there are these kinds of organizations all over the world. We were talking to Choe in Zambia, and she was talking about, she went to Bongo Hype. And there she was, she has an eSports team, earned her partner. And she just wanted all these business skills. So we thought, let's talk to some people to kind of put it in people's minds that there are resources out there that can help them out. Sure. Now you have a global reach and you've focused your, the guests from different regions or different countries. Can you tell us who you allow as guests in terms of regions? What we want to do is, I mean, our tagline is, play games, create jobs, change lives. And what we want to do is we want to talk about how eSports can create jobs anywhere in the world. Not so much just in how it's done here in California, where I am, but really how it can be done anywhere in the world. So we talked to a lot of people in Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Middle East, we talked to some people in Europe, we talked to people in India, talked to people in Asia as well. Because it's the same story we keep hearing over and over again about how eSports, whether you're creating a team, whether you're creating a tournament, it's like it does create jobs. Okay. So what, let's start with your second season because you had a real focus. What was your, remind us of your focus to your second season? We call it follow the money because we wanted to talk to, because the thing that we hear, the common thing we hear all the time is, I need more money. It's like, you know, any business needs money to be successful. And really in eSports, it's sponsorship. And for your organization, it may be an investment in your organization to let you continue and to let you grow. So we talked to people who were on the sponsorship side, who were giving sponsors. We talked to Luca Groni, Red Bull South Africa about what, what does he like to hear when someone comes in pitches to become a Red Bull sponsor? And it's like, his advice we hear over and over again was, tell them what you can do for the brand. Don't tell them how great you are, how you have all these followers. It's like, no, what they want to hear. What can, what can you do for them? And if you, if you start the conversation and, and well, obviously you need to start it beforehand. You need to prepare for it. It's like one of the things that we also learned is know who your audience is. So when you go into Red Bull, go into any, any place and you, and you're pitching for sponsorship, make sure that you know who it is that you can bring to the sponsor. So do a little bit of research on who it is that is in your audience out there. When we talked to investment, we talked to a couple of investment bankers, a couple of venture capitalists out there and I was like, what could they look for when they're interested in making an investment? And my impression has always been venture capitalists, they're, they're designed to say no. That's, that's, that's what they want. It's just the opposite. They want to say yes. They want to find an organization that they can invest in and that they can, that they can work with. And one of the things that we discovered there certainly for on the investment side is most important thing is the founders are, you know, are they talking to founders that are going to be successful out there? So, you know, we just talked to a lot of different people about, about money because that's something that everyone needs more of. Sure. So do you find that the eSports business and the show me the money and the business portion, you know, those seasons that you focus on that? Is it any different than any other segment of business? Yeah. What we want to do is we want to tell the stories of people who have been successful in creating businesses to give other people the idea that, hey, here's Ronnie Lucigi in Nairobi, Kenya. Here's the kinds of things that he's been doing. And the other thing we find is no one, no one we've talked to has a roadmap. It's like, no one is like, okay, here's your roadmap. Here's where you want to go. And here's how you get there. Just the opposite. All these people are out there creating their own roadmap, which is just, just amazing out there. We find that a lot of people in eSports, they're, I mean, let's face it, they're playing games. So there could be really good on the game side of things, but on the business side of things, that's where maybe we can, you know, point them in the direction. We don't have all the answers, but if we can get them to think we've had attorneys, which you can, you can appreciate. It's like, okay, why should you be talking to an attorney? And when should you be talking to them? Not when you need them, but before you need them sort of thing. So the same kinds of things. Any, with your team, whether you're a tournament organizer, it's a small business. Sometimes it's a big business, but it has all the same business requirements that anyone else has, you know, HR accounting, taxes, logistics, you know, space, it's like, there's all kinds of things. So the more that we can tell the stories of people around the world who have, who have been successful at managing these kinds of business activities, we think we're doing the right thing. Sure. And you focus on countries that are not like, you're not focusing on North America, you're not focusing on Europe. Do you find that there's a difference between those countries, the people in those countries that you are talking to compared with, you know, the experiences that we have like in North America and in Europe? Yes and no, because yes, they're playing eSports. So if you're playing, if you have a Mortal Kombat tournament in Ghana, you're dealing with the same thing that someone here in Burbank is, you know, creating their own Mortal Kombat tournament. But there are things that we don't always appreciate here that are challenges. Let's say in Sub-Saharan Africa, it's like infrastructure. It's like, you know, are the lights going to be on 24 hours a day? Well, maybe they are, maybe they're not sort of things. So that's something you get to work around. And the thing that we do work, we talk more about we're servers because there aren't servers or there's very few in Sub-Saharan Africa. And here it's like, you know, if I logged in to play Fortnite to watch people beat up on me, it's like my ping rate would be just like everyone else that's in the game. But if you are in Sub-Saharan Africa, your ping is going to Europe and back and it's like, and that difference, a difference doesn't may not sound like a lot, but if you're trying to be a real world champion, like we're talking to Queen Arrow in Nairobi, in Kenya, and for her to play fighting games, it's almost impossible if you're not on the same playing field. So there's some infrastructure requirements. The other thing that we find is just amazing how ingenious people are, how creative people are, because things that we might think, well, I just can't do this if I can't depend on electricity or the ping rate is bad or anything. Yeah, they figure out ways around it and benefit from it. Sure, we can relate to the ping rate issue in Hawaii. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we do have that challenge, but you know, it's worked out in our advantage in some ways because like the Overwatch League, they brought championship to University of Hawaii because we had favorable opportunities to connect with Tokyo. So do you feel now that you've interviewed so many people across the world in the business of esports, do you feel that you can provide some like advice to anyone that is interested in starting a business in esports in Africa or India or the Middle East? Yes, because in listening to me talk, no, but when you look at listen to our guests, if you're trying to start something in Sub-Saharan Africa, as an example, you can hear from other people who have done that and that's really valuable because then they're dealing with the same kinds of issues that you would be dealing with when you create your team or your tournament out there. So our value is in telling other people's stories and not telling people how to do it. So Tom, how do you get involved in this? Like what is your background and what led you to want to create and host this podcast? Well, I've been in marketing for a long time, mainly entertainment marketing. Netflix, when they were starting out, Warner Brothers, just down the street got to do some amazing things there. But then a couple of years ago I was talking to some people in Sub-Saharan Africa in Ghana about doing some tournaments. I said, oh, let's do Mortal Kombat because I know the WB Games guys over here, it's like in Mortal Kombat is an older title, which means that there's more flexibility in what can be done. So let's do that. And so we start putting things together. And then Kwesi Aford in Ghana, he was like, he was doing all this promotion for girls, his term girls. And I said, what's going on there? He goes, well, I want them to make enough money to not have to live on the streets. And I was like, wow, that's something that we would never, you know, probably would not be thinking of here. And it started to make me think. It's like, okay, what if we could tell stories about how esports can create jobs? Now we're not talking about being a streamer super famous and everything, you know, that could happen. But how about if you create an event? What if you create a team and you can actually start creating jobs? We're talking to Eniola Edan at GamerX in Nigeria. And they were like amazing. It's like they put on this huge event, multi-country event in like seven or eight months. They put it together. And when we were talking with her, she was talking about how, yeah, she's adding in about 270 jobs were created for that event. So it's like, you know, there's the opportunity out there to make some money that can make a difference in someone's life. And how do you get guests? Yes. Yes. I tell the story all the time. It's like, the way to get guests is you hire someone, you become a business partner. Not just hire, but become a business partner with someone like Reginald and Sawa in Ghana. And when you're starting a podcast, one thing that you don't have is a track record. So when you go out and you try to get guests, it's like they're like, well, but you don't, you know, you haven't been at this very long. But the way, the reason that Reginald was successful is he just asked. And he was out there asking people, we were talking to people we had no business talking to. I mean, just a really high level. But the way that he got it was, you know, to be sincere, but to just ask people because more often than not, people like to talk about themselves. People like to talk about what they're doing. And at the same time, people like in people in North America or people in Europe, we were bringing them a world that they weren't that familiar with in so many different places. They just didn't have the same. And sometimes we made connections because they were like, oh, I really would like to work more with people in South Africa. But I don't know anyone in South Africa. We're like, well, we can help you do that. So it's, you know, a lot of those connections are, are a part of the story. The other thing I always tell people is, if you want to, if everyone should have a podcast, because what it does for you, it allows you to network. It's like, you know, you can have a great resume and everything and you're on LinkedIn and you're like, oh, I'm glad to talk to this person. But, you know, it's kind of an awkward, you know, I'd like to talk to you kind of thing. If you have a podcast, boom, it's like an in to, you know, not necessarily that you're saying, hey, I want you to be on podcast, but hey, it gives you some credibility. Some of your authority that I know I've heard you talk about with your show, it gives you credibility out there that maybe you might know what it is that you're doing. Yeah, now that I've had over 100 shows, I've met so many people in the world of eSports all over the world. So I feel like I can go to an event and maybe one of my guests will be there. You know, so it is a great way to infiltrate the space. Now, are you a gamer or have you been a gamer, Tom? I like playing games, but not really competitive games because I'm so bad at it. Like, I'll play PUBG or something like that and I always buy the bright orange outfit, which was like a bullseye targeting me, you know. It's like, so I was out pretty soon there. But I like the games like Assassin's Creed and those kinds of games, you know, Far Cry. And so I played those a lot. I also worked with the WB Games people over here at Warner Brothers, and it was interesting to see how they were approaching marketing games there. So I've been a gamer, but not anything too serious. Now, you have been really focused on other countries, like international gaming and e-sports. How would you compare the United States to what's going on in these other countries? Here it's like an industry on steroids compared to other places. It's always interesting because they're doing the exact same things. They're creating the events. They're creating teams, things like that. Same things that you're doing here, but here the world is so much more robust. So, you know, if you're in California, you're going to be able to find events. You're going to be able to connect with people that you can actually meet up with. If you're in someplace in Zambia, you know, you're not going to have that same ability to network with people that are nearby. So that's one of the things we want to kind of do with the podcast is to give people an idea of, hey, there are other people doing exactly what you're doing in places that are just like where you're from. Do you have some shows in your mind that stand out to be kind of the most interesting or your favorites? Well, I would never say that one guest is a favorite over another, but the one that always comes to my mind is when we're talking to Quacy Hayford. He took his team from Ghana to an international event in Bali. And he, so we had him after he returned. We had him and all the guys that went to Bali on a show, and it was great. It was great for a podcast host because you just turned it on and let him go. And there's kinds of things that you heard were just, it's like, and they kept saying it over and it was a life-changing event. And each one of them had a different point of view, but when you just start to hear what it meant to them, the other thing that was always interesting was the families because they were gamers and gaming is a waste of time sort of idea that kids anywhere might hear. But as soon as they went to the airport and their parents saw they were going to get on a plane, go halfway around the world to play video games, it's like all of a sudden it had a whole different credibility to them and what it is that they were doing. So that was a great one. We also talked to Nick Turner in the UK and his team control that has a really interesting story there. I mean, the people that we're, so many people that we talked to were really interesting in their own way. And so we also tried to, we thought it was important to talk to as many women as possible because we want to show that there is a place for women in this industry. And I mentioned Eniola then in Nigeria, but we also talked to Denise Shantel Ortega from Women in Games Asia at the time. It's like, so to hear from women and how their journey in esports is really different than a lot of guys and for them to be able to tell their story and maybe other women hear that, that was a bonus there. Sure. Yeah, I've had a few of those type of shows before and those have been very interesting and helpful to address the diversity issue. Now, you have hosted my show before the wide world of esports and your show is an audio podcast. What do you feel is the difference when you're hosting a video versus audio podcast? Video is really important and we need to be doing more of it. We do LinkedIn Lives where we're starting to do, we've had our third one today and so we've been, and to be able to be on video just is a whole different step in talking to people. And we do record in audio and video. So we use the video on our, if there's marketing or things like this or we'll put it out on the YouTube channel. But also what we find in a lot of places in the world, video choose up a lot of bandwidth. So you might, you know, also people don't download podcasts. They listen to them, they stream them because it's a different bandwidth. We use a different amount of data, which here it's like, you know, we never think of. I mean, you get download or not, it's like, okay, there's room on your follow, and it's like, but in some places that makes a big difference out there. So yeah, we'd like to do more video, but podcasting is audio and so we're trying to make it as interesting as we can. Sure, and you know what's interesting about video and I'll show a couple images here is some of my most memorable shows that are really interesting, kind of like at least the thumbnails for the episode are incredibly interesting. I have to say I have a favorite show and that's the one where I interviewed Wale Shark. We'll bring the image up. Wale Shark only appears by Avatar and he only goes by a pseudonym, Wale Shark, okay? And I never knew who he was. His public relations person contacted me until I ended up booking him on the show. And then there's Hip Hop Gamer and that, you know, he created some great visuals and he did some, you know, kind of wrap on the show is really a cool show. And then Esports Circus where Geoff, Geoffrey were a top hat. I mean, these kind of visuals, they're really striking and those happen to be some of my favorite shows just because they were something different and, you know, I know on the audio you can't quite create that, but LinkedIn Live does provide that opportunity and it's great to be a guest on your LinkedIn Live right before we film this. And we appreciate it. Yeah, so tell us how many LinkedIn Live episodes have you done or what are you doing with them? We've done three so far. Today's was the third one and we want to do them kind of on an every other week basis because the other thing is that LinkedIn Live allows us to do is to talk to people that are kind of one-offs. It's like, you know, maybe if we have a theme for the show for the season, it's like, well, we don't, yeah, too many people to, you know, vary from that. So LinkedIn Live gives us another opportunity and we're also kind of figuring out what it is that attracts people's attention. The other thing that I've been a really big fan of and we've had a few guests is to have people that aren't eSports people online but that have a message that could be interesting to eSports entrepreneurs. We've had a couple of Stanford professors, for example, using the Stanford connection as much as I can. And, you know, talking about communication, talking about idea flow. We had Patricia Ryan Manson, who is really a world leader in improv and she's retired now but she has taught improv for business purposes for decades. And it's like, you know, she's not a gamer out there but the message that she had is something that an eSports entrepreneur could recognize as being valuable. You know, I think that that's smart that you bring in people who can help people in the eSports industry. I know this morning we talked about how, and I think we've talked on the show, a bit about how eSports is a business and you need to acquire business skills in order to do it and, you know, it isn't that different from other businesses in that regard. The ecosystem is huge. So one thing that I've noticed on my show is I've had a lot of people in the education realm of eSports on. In fact, it got to the point where I had so many that I was trying not to have them as guests because I wanted to diversify a bit. Have you had educators and people involved in the education piece? Yes, yes, we have because there are a lot of people out there that are doing some really amazing things in that space. And again, if we could talk about what someone's doing in Canada or Norway or something like that and have someone in Africa realize that, oh, educators can be involved in this space in a positive way. That's a good thing. Sure, sure. So tell us about how we can find your podcast and how people can tune in like when it is because I'm sure a lot of people will want to find you. Go out and find. Gamers change lives anywhere and you can probably find us. We're on all the platforms out there because it's really easy to distribute that way. Subscribe. And the best thing to do is to leave us a review. Leave us a positive review. It's actually the best thing. But reviews are unbelievably important in the podcast ecosystem. So go out there. We usually publish on Saturday morning, my time on a weekly basis. But yeah, we're going to be starting up with season four here very, very soon. And so we'll start to have some new episodes coming out. So just go to gamerschangedlivespodcast.com. And so your time is Pacific time then? Yes. Yes. Okay, fantastic. So what's the future of your podcast? We want to keep telling stories. One of the great things is we kind of figured out as we go along, but we kind of figure out what the audience is interested in. And so, yeah, we're just going to, you know, for the future, we're going to be doing more LinkedIn lives. We're going to be doing, you know, maybe Facebook lives, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram and so on out there to see, you know, see where we can spread the message out there. But for the foreseeable future, we're going to keep doing what we're doing right now. Sure. And I, you know, I think it's important to tell the stories of people in Africa and Asia. You know, these are stories that we might not be able to get in other places. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Tom, thank you so much for being my guest today. Sure. I thank our viewers today for joining us. In two weeks, my guest will be Micah Maderos. We're going to be discussing an upcoming LAN event at Hawaii Pacific University Arena. See you then.