 Good morning everybody. Good morning. Hello. Welcome to the webinar number 62 in the series of Copyright and Online Learning webinars that we have been running in conjunction with the Association for Learning Technology. So my name's Chris Morrison and my name is Jane Secker and we are the co-chairs of the Association for Learning Technologies Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest, the Coolsig, the coolest of all the Special Interest. Absolutely, yes. And we are really excited this morning about this webinar. It's been quite a long time coming, this piece of work that we've been doing, working with Bart Milletti who's joining us from Create, learning on screen. He's got multiple hats, but he's not wearing any actual hats, but I think he's still probably always has to wear more than one figurative virtual hat at any one time, but we'll get into that in a moment, won't we? So this is the running order for today's webinar. We have some copyright news as ever. And then as we've been saying, the main event is the launch of the Code of Fair Practice for the use of audio-visual works in film education. And that says 9th of June 2023. Yes, and we should point out we're wearing our, as Louise has said, she loves our t-shirts. We are wearing our copyright literacy, Enlightenment Strikes Back t-shirts. This is quite an old edition, isn't it? It's an old edition, it's a classic. I think we might have created these t-shirts in 2017 even. It could be, but because it's a film, cinema theme. And because we're Star Wars geeks. We thought we'd bring out the old Star Wars related t-shirts. Definitely. Right, let us talk about what's happened since we last met. Yeah, yeah. So this is something we do for anyone that's not a regular user. We like to update people on what we've been doing. So many people will know that if you see me in my normal online location, I've kind of, it's sort of got guitars and things in the background. Where I was a couple of weeks ago is a bit cooler than that. So I don't know if anyone can read what it says at the back or where that studio is. Maybe people might want to guess where you went. Yeah, I think people probably went on an aeroplane, a big plane somewhere. Detroit, Motown. Absolutely, Simon. Good spot. And Sam. So that was Motown Studio A. It was, I was over there for a library conference in Michigan. So stopping off, had to go and visit Motown. Absolutely incredible experience. A brilliant museum. So well done. And being in that room, which really hasn't changed at all, was quite an emotional experience, I have to say. It was pretty mind blowing. But that was me. That was what I've been up to. So last week, I had a few days off and headed down to Dorset. And this is a picture of me down on Stubborn Beach, where I didn't manage to do some paddle boarding. And I haven't actually got a picture of me stood up on the paddle board, because I fell in every time I tried to stand up. I managed well on my knees. And there was a little bit of video, but I'm quite far in the distance. So I thought everyone would just like to see me. That's me with my paddle. And that's just after I fell in and got absolutely so for probably the second or third time. But it was fun. It was loads of fun. I really liked it. I'm hoping to get a paddle board. I'm going to take this up seriously. Head off somewhere, you know, out to sea. Apparently that is quite dangerous if you do it when there's a wind blowing you the wrong way. You need to be careful. Safety at all times. Yes, I've got a life jacket on there. Very good. Right. So let us move on now to just say that for anybody that wants to catch up on previous webinars, this is number 62. You can catch all the other 61 on our blog and also on the Alt YouTube channel. Yep. I hope we've got Greg here who might be able to put some links in the chat for us and to some of those websites. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's that. And let's move on to the copyright news. What have we got? We've got a couple of things. Haven't we coming up? Well, very exciting. We are still taking bookings for the ice pops conference. It's going to be if you haven't yet heard about it on the 19th to the 21st of July. The main event is happening on the 20th of July, but if you booked to come on the conference, you get to come to our pre-conference workshop the day before if you want to, which has got a theme about eBooks and eLending and being running conjunction with Create. That is completely included in the booking price, the bargain price if you are an Alt Coulson member of £120. And you also get a couple of social events. We've got an exciting social event. We do. Both evenings. And we're going to be also doing some tours on the Friday of the University of Glasgow Library. And we're going to do a bit of a walking tour around Glasgow as well for those who want to. Yeah. The program is really shaping up. We have, because we're in the advanced research centre at the University of Glasgow, it's a fantastic multidisciplinary space. We've also, I think we're going to have some demonstrations of some very cool technology. Yeah, yeah. Greg's been arranging lots of things for us. Yeah, Greg and others later on this afternoon to sort of put in the kind of finishing touches to the program, but it's it's there. It's available. Yeah. And we really look forward to see you there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Another thing related to a conference that we were at. We mentioned this, didn't we last time? We did mention this last time because we had just recorded the Chatting Info Lips podcast that we did at the Lilac conference with the Information Literacy Group's new professionals team. They've run, they've set up a podcast and they interviewed Chris and I and also Mark Childs who's one of the people behind Pedagodzilla, which is another amazing podcast, which is Pedagogy with some pop culture. With a pop culture twist, I think is what they say. Yeah, but there's, it's a really good discussion. There's lots of funny little outtakes and things in there as well. There's lots of excerpts from people who were at the Lilac conference talking about what they're enjoying about the conference. And yeah, if you want to find out about how we got started with copyright waffle out podcast and some tips, have a listen. Yeah. So that's a good one. This is a case copyright lawsuit in the US, which I thought would be useful to look at is Andy Warhol versus Lynn Goldsmith. So this is a sort of long-awaited ruling from the US courts as to whether the Andy Warhol sunscreen version of Lynn Goldsmith's original picture of Prince was an infringement of copyright. And the court found that it was an infringement that the Fed use argument didn't stick because effectively the use of Andy Warhol's version of the of the of the of the image effectively had the same market in terms of being used as a magazine illustration. So there's lots more. There's this link there. There's quite a few other links in the copyright news newsletter that Matt Voigt puts out from from IFLA. So Matt was our guest last week. I think many people will have signed up to that. But that's quite an interesting decision one to look at when looking at what can be considered fair use. Yeah. In our works. Another thing sort of, I guess, related to to copyright. I picked this up off Sheila Webber's Information Literacy blog. There is a call for papers out from the ATRL, the American College and Research Libraries group for chapters about text and data mining. And I just thought it's it's also interesting because they've created another literacy for the text and data mining literacy. Okay. And I thought that might be something people interested in contributing to. Absolutely. We don't have it on our list of things to contribute to. We've got quite a long list of commitments already. So writing a chapter on text and data mining and copyright implications. Maybe there are people already in the process of doing that. But it would just be useful to let people within the community know that that's there. Clearly, that is an incredibly important part of text data mining. Definitely. And also, if you don't follow Sheila's blog, then it's the best place to find out what's going on in the world of information literacy as well. And she did a great write up on her blog. She was at the Lilot conference. She was very nice about what we did. So of course it was good. Excellent. So is this the final piece of news? So as we've mentioned, we are part of our special interest group is part of the Association for Learning Technology. And Billy Smith is the incoming Chief Executive Designate. So we just wanted to say welcome to Billy. We're really looking forward to continue to working with the Association for Learning Technology. We're quite, yeah, it's emotional to see Marin, Marin Deepwell, who's been heading up ALT for many years, moving on. It is. It is. But it's great for her to be, you know. Yeah. And I think they're going to be, I think they'll be doing a handover over the next couple of months. So we look forward to meeting Billy. But yeah, we've been so, so grateful to Marin for all the support she's given us in creating the group and supporting the webinar series. And long may that continue, we hope. So yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we are now on to the main event. We are talking here about the Code of Fair Practice for the use of audio visual works in film education. This is a project that we've been working on along with Bart Milletti at Learning on Screen. So we're going to hand over to Bart now to talk us through the background of the code. And we're going to pick out some of the things that are within it. As we've mentioned, Bart has many hats. He is learning on screen, research executive introduced himself, but he's also the creative genius behind copyrightuser.org. And he's also working hard on his PhD. Has he got a hat on there? Has he got a hat on? Let's find out. Bart, are you there? Can you hear us? I am. Can you hear me? We can. Yes. Thanks very much for the kind introduction. So I think you already said it all. So yeah, I work for Learning on Screen and that's the capacity in which I've been working on this project, but also for the Create Center at the University of Glasgow. And so yeah, thanks for the opportunity. As you said, it's been a very long but also interesting and rewarding project. And we are finally launching the Code of Fair Practice for film educators, which is basically a project that is intended to encourage the lawful use of audiovisual materials for educational purposes. So what I like to do during this short presentation is to tell you a little bit about the methodology that we adopted. And then I'll show you some highlights of the data we collected through those methods. And I conclude by showing you some parts of the code, hoping that that will prompt a discussion with everyone. But before I do that, I just wanted to contextualize the project a little bit. So why do we need a Code of Fair Practice in the first place? Well, as you know, under copyright law there are basically two main ways in which you can lawfully use existing materials. You can either use them with permission from the copyright owners or without permission. So the good thing about using materials with permission is that it's usually safe and reliable. So for example, at Learning on Screen we offer Bob, which is a streaming service for education that allows staff and students at subscribing institutions to browse and use over three million broadcasts under the tense and conditions of the year license. And the good thing about it is that as long as you stick to the tense and conditions of the license, then you're safe. The risk of infringement is potentially zero. However, there are of course only a certain number of materials available on Bob and covered by the year license and a certain number of uses. So what if in this case a film educator wants to use a film or another audiovisual work that is not covered by the year license or is not available on Bob? Or what if they want to use it in a way that is not covered by the license? So that's where copyright exceptions become very important in enabling educational uses in this case that are not permitted by licenses. And so exceptions like Illustration for Destruction or Research and Private Study, for example. But while on the one hand exceptions play a very essential role in the copyright system, on the other hand they also come with issues. And one of those issues is that they embed ambiguous concepts that and therefore, you know, that has not been tested in high courts and therefore the scope of application is uncertain. In a way this project, you know, the cause of fair practice, what they try to do is to address this issue by identifying the principles and practices that are considered acceptable and fair by a certain community, in this case the film education community. And we do that with a view to giving some content to those ambiguous concepts and, you know, ultimately to encourage the lawful use of audiovisual materials or to enable, in this case, film educators to, you know, use all the materials they need to achieve their pedagogical goals. So how did we do that? How did we, you know, actually identify such practices and principles? So as, you know, Chris and Zay mentioned, we started quite a long time ago back in 2020. In the middle of the pandemic we carried out two online workshops, which had two old goals. First to identify the main copyright issues faced by film educators in reusing existing materials. And also they try to enable participants to deliberate on what constitutes fair practice in reusing existing materials or what they think, you know, should be acceptable. The workshops attracted 48 film academics from many different institutions, from all the British nations, and the workshops adopted a three-step design. So basically what we did first, we asked participants to complete an introductory survey which was designed to help them reflect upon their teaching practice and come up with real life examples of reuse for educational purposes. And as part of step one, then after that they had to, we broke them into smaller groups and they had to come up with the first statement of fair practice. After the second step was an educational element. So basically Chris, Jane and I gave a little talk about the UK copyright law focusing on educational exceptions. And after that, the third step was that the participants had the opportunity to revise statements based on the, you know, the guidance they just received. So the workshop generated lots of interesting data and we were able to identify three main areas of discussion. So people were particularly interested in how to source content lawfully, how to use content lawfully and, you know, about responsibility, meaning, you know, who would be responsible, you know, if things go wrong. And more specifically, we were also able to code the various statements and notes into four main categories. So first, the need, so what they need, you know, from a pedagogical point of view, the challenge that they encounter, you know, in responding to those needs, the practice, so what they do in practice to overcome those challenges and finally the principle. So what they think, you know, should be, you know, sort of an ideal situation. And so while, you know, the workshops were very successful in achieving the first goal, so in generating a picture of the main copyright issues faced by the film educators, however, they were not as successful at enabling participants to deliberate on fair practice. Probably there wasn't just enough time to do that, to agree what, you know, fair practice should look like. So to do that, what we did then was to design a follow-up deliberation questionnaire, again, based on the data collected through the workshop. And then we sent that questionnaire to both the people who participated in the workshops. But also we circulated a separate link to the same questionnaire via the same channels through which we had advertised the workshops, basically to get, also, to get, you know, more views and also to see whether there were any differences in perception between those who participated and, you know, got that educational element I mentioned and those who didn't. And the questionnaire, you know, was, most questions were scenario-based, somewhere with a multiple choice, other with a like-up scale type of question, which is, you know, what you usually do in the deliberation exercises. But I would say that, you know, probably the most interesting data were generated through open questions, like this one I wanted to show you. So, again, you know, at the, at the workshops, the, some of the participants teaching script writing mentioned that they, you know, needed to screen the entire film to the students to show how, you know, a script is developed from beginning to end. And so we took that as a hook to ask everyone, well, can you think of other examples of, you know, when you need to show an entire film to achieve your learning outcomes? And that generated lots of very interesting statements that we then used to draft the code and that we were able to categorize under these, you know, four main categories, general remarks, learning outcomes, subject-specific considerations, and clips versus whole films. So before showing you the actual code, I just thought I'd give you some highlights to, you know, give you a more concrete idea of what I'm talking about. So general remarks, you know, were things like, you know, I believe that when you teach any single creative aspect of film, then you need to show complete films. Whereas the, what we categorized as learning outcomes were more specific and very interesting, we were actually able to sub-categorize them into, you know, sub-categories. So there was quite a focus on, you know, the need to expose students to a wider range of films, to a more diverse range of films that, than what they would normally watch. There were a few statements about the need to enable students' activities and examination. So for example, to encourage discussion and debate immediately after screening a film, as well as encouraging critical analysis. Critical analysis then became a category on its own, because quite a lot of the statements refer to critical analysis and we were able actually to code them into sub-categories again. So there were some general statements about critical analysis like the first one you see here, you know, to appreciate the entire work of art in order to analyze it critically. But then there were quite a lot of more specific statements about the importance of watching a whole film to analyze narrative, narrative structure and so on. And then also there were a few comments and statements about production disciplines. So you need to show, you know, the whole film in order to show consistency, for example, in sound design, visual effects and or color grading across the duration of a film. And also there were a few comments about authorship. So if a class is studying an author, then they will need to see the whole film from the over. Sorry, my friends, but yeah, you get, I hope, what they meant there. And interestingly, there were also a few, you know, subject-specific considerations. So apparently, you know, showing the whole film is very important for, you know, educators who teach film history. There were quite a lot of comments about teaching film history. For example, your students need to understand the work as a whole to understand how it fits within its historical context. And also there were a few about the musicology and film musicology, tracing the development of musical themes and motives across the whole film and so on. And finally, yeah, we collected a couple of more comments about other, you know, subjects, you know, world cinema, world cultures, literature and so on and so forth. And finally, what we categorized as clips against versus entire films were basically comments that spoke to the, you know, the need and opportunity to show an entire film in general, you know, versus just showing clips, you know, like this one, you know, you can't appreciate a performance arc without watching an entire film. You cannot experience the full work as it's supposed to be experienced. You cannot judge the elements of genre, structure, or have an understanding of the cinematic language or psychology of cut. And, you know, these are, I think, incredibly interesting data, you know, because they, you know, under fair dealing, you know, potentially one can use the whole work as long as they can justify it in relation to the purpose of the use. And, you know, that's what I meant before when I said, you know, these exercises sort of give content to these ambiguous concepts, you know, you're here, really, you can see real life examples of, you know, why the film education community in particular, you know, in many cases does need to show the whole film, you know, and that, you know, may help, I think, in a fairness analysis in favor of the educator. So the next step then after, you know, collecting and systematizing all these different data was to actually draft the code. And sorry, something I should have probably mentioned earlier is that this whole initiative is inspired by a very similar initiative in the U.S., which developed the American University series of code of best practices in fair use, which was led by Patricia Haffterheide and Peter Giatti. And they started back in 2004, I think. And so, yeah, that was our main source of inspiration. And it was also our main source of inspiration for the structure of the code. So we decided that, you know, they were successful. So we tried and tested the same structure they adopted. So we basically structured the code, as I showed you in a second, around four main types of use. And for each use, we described the use, using the language we collected through the workshops and the follow-on questionnaire. Then we tried to summarize what is considered, you know, fair by the film educators and sort of lawful by lawyers in a short principle, and talking about more like the fairness aspect in the principle. And then the legal aspects are the considerations that follow the principles. So a list of considerations that I, again, I'll show you examples shortly. And finally, followed by a hard case, a sort of a borderline case that, you know, tries to, you know, show where, you know, the border between lawful and lawful becomes a bit more unclear. So after drafting, you know, producing a first draft of the code, then it went through a review process. First, we got the draft peer reviewed by the workshops participants. We got several comments and we implemented them. And then the rewrite was then submitted to the Learning on Screens copyright advisory panel, which is a group of expert, of copyright experts from government academia and industry who advise learning on screen on our copyright literacy strategy. And so we got also a lot of very useful comments from the copyright advisory panel, we implemented them. And finally, just a few days ago, we published the final version of the code. So yeah, you'll, you can find the link to the web version of the code here in the chat. But yeah, that's how it looks like. So the four main types of uses that we identified were first, allowing students equitable access to a diverse range of films. Second, allowing students to critically analyze films. Third, adapting films for teaching and learning purposes. So things like creating video essays, for example. And finally, the fourth type of use is a sort of use that crosses over the other three, which is, you know, to format shift film content, you know, which is often needed in order to be able to, you know, use the films in all the other ways. So to conclude the presentation, I thought I'll just show you one of these four uses. And I picked the second one, allowing students to critically analyze films. Because I thought, you know, as you can see from this description, you know, it's pretty clear how, you know, this reflects the language that we collected, you know, through, in particular, that open question I showed you earlier. So basically, you know, participants explain to us, you know, how and when, you know, they need to show films for, you know, to enable critical analysis and so on and so forth. So this first, you have a description of, you know, what the film community is, you know, needs from a pedagogical point of view. And then we try to summarize the, you know, a principle of fairness here by saying that it is fair to screen and watch films, whether in parts or in their entirety, when aimed at enabling and encouraging critical analysis, subject to the following. And the following are the list of considerations I mentioned earlier, which basically, in a way, you know, they try to describe the, you know, the thought process that one needs to follow from a copyright point of view in order to make informed decisions, you know, on these issues. So, you know, the description of the use is, you know, what a lot of film educators describe what a lot of film educators need from an educational point of view. And then this is like the legal part is a sort of, you know, a second list or, you know, like a list of considerations that one needs to bear in mind. So the first two speak to the two main exceptions we thought are relevant for these specific type of use. So the first one speaks primarily to illustration for instruction and other educational exceptions. So we say that, you know, when the film is analyzed for non-commercial educational purposes, then more extensive uses are generally permitted by law. And generally speaking, you know, educators can use film clips or entire films as required by their pedagogical aims. Then the second consideration speaks to another, you know, a couple of exceptions that is not specific to the education sector but is still very relevant, which is criticism or review. So how we phrased it is that critical analysis of films may be allowed even for commercial purposes and beyond educational settings if the primary purpose for using the film is criticism or review of the film itself or of another work rather than education. So these two considerations sort of set the scene. And, you know, as you can see at that link, most of this consideration come with a footnote where you can find the actual legal reference. And the third one then goes into the fairness analysis that is required. Because, of course, there are all these different exceptions for different purposes. But again, as I mentioned at the beginning, one of the main things to consider is that your use needs to be considered fair. So here we say that, you know, educators and students should only use as much of the film as is necessary to achieve their pedagogical and scholarly aims. Using a film for commercial purposes under fair dealing usually requires a larger amount of direct criticism or commentary rather than using it for non-commercial educational purposes. And that educators should be prepared to explain the intended significance of the film used in relation to the purpose of the use. So in this consideration, basically what we tried to do was to summarize what we know from case law, particularly around the exception for criticism of review. We tried to, you know, explain it in an accessible language. Again, you know, basically the, you know, the criteria, the fairness factor that you should only use, you know, the excessive use in relation to the purpose that you should only use what you need to achieve your purpose. And then the, the last two considerations, one is quite slightly doctrinal. So what does commercial purpose means, which was another, you know, another issue that came up a lot during the workshops. And so here we clarify that commercial purpose relates to the use itself, not the status of the organization. So in principle, even a for-profit organization can rely on exceptions like illustration for instruction that only permits non-commercial uses. And finally, we again refer to the statute. You know, we say unless this is impossible for practical reasons, then the authors of the film should be acknowledged. And we also clarify that under UK copyright law specifically, the authors of the film are considered to be the producer and the principal director. And finally, as I mentioned, you know, we conclude with hard case, sort of a borderline case. And so in this, in relation to this particular use, we thought it was, you know, useful to know that a fairness assessment changes, depending on the type of economic right that is involved and of the circumstances of the use more generally. So here, you know, we say that while, you know, showing a film in its entirety in the classroom or, you know, in a virtual learning environment that is restricted to all, you know, a certain number of students, you know, it's likely to be fair if they use as a clear pedagogical value. Then, you know, if you do the same thing online in a MOOC, in a massive online open course, and you're showing the entire film, then that's, you know, unlikely to be considered fair, because then, you know, if you're making the whole film available on the internet, then that may be commercially competing with the copyright owner's work, you know, which again is one of the fairness factor that one should consider. So, yeah, that was just one example. I believe the next slide is for Chris Godrej. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Bart. Have I unmuted successfully? Can you hear me? Yes. Excellent. Right. Okay. Well, we'll pick it up there. So thanks so much, Bart, for taking us up to that. So there are four different uses. We've picked out two of them. So the next one we wanted to talk about was this, the fourth one, format shifting, because we know this is a topic of conversation that's come up a lot of times. I'm also going to be just putting in the chat here a link to Professor Emily Hudson's legal analysis, which goes into this question and looks at the different parts of the legislation and how to address that at the time of the lockdown. But what we've got here is this description. I picked out this particular part that says, education establishments may have to choose between format shifting content from physical media to digital files so that students can access films and other audio-visual works that are required for their study or not making works available at all. So within that description, we've really clearly pointed out that there are specific situations where the only option that an educational establishment or educators have is whether to do a format shifting or simply not make that work available because of the nature of how accessibility is to get licensed access to it in the first place. So the principle that we have here is very much built upon Emily's work, saying that it is fair for teachers and institutions to format shift audio-visual content if this is necessary to provide access to the content for their teaching. But of course, what we've got on top of that is the checking with the community and the participants to ensure that their sense of what was fair also chimed in with that. So the considerations we've got here, eight of them. First is that the film, the audio-visual work, should have been lawfully acquired by the institution. The acknowledgement needs to be there in that second consideration. Again, that links to the requirements in the legislation. Third, where films are under reasonable license conditions, educators should make use of those in the first instance. And as Bart has mentioned, we have the era license box of broadcasts, PlanetEastream or other services are available. And there are other services as well where you can get licensed access to them that are aimed at the educational market. Lawful acquisition does mean ownership of specific titles. We're suggesting lawful access doesn't relate to having a subscription access on an all-you-can-eat business model. Most of those are on sort of consumer terms anyway, not regarded as lawful acquisition by the institution. Educators should be considered expansively. So it isn't just the film lecture itself, it's anybody such as a technician, learning technologist or librarian who is involved in sourcing and making that content available. The sixth point here is in a comparison whether an online source that is likely to be infringing versus actually an education institution format shifting themselves, that the educator should do that format shifting rather than relying on things that may be infringing and out there on the broader internet. And that was one of the ones that was based on participant feedback as well as the legal analysis. Point seven is around circumventing copy protection measures. And we're here being making people aware that this could be a breach of the legislation. It's separate from the copyright regime, but there are the provisions there within the Copyright Designs and Patterns Act, so they need to be aware of that. And then the final one here is that accessing those copies that they are format shifted should only be made available to relevant students and it should not be downloaded or downloadable. So any increase in that clearly or allowing it to greater access than that will increase the risk. So in the hard cases we do pick up a bit more on the question of what is institutional policy and about the circumvention of the copy protection. So the first thing to point out participants did feel that if the format shifting was possible without technical support that it would be fair to do it if it was necessary to achieve their pedagogic aims. And the final part here about the risk of potential breach of law, it's about balancing that against the pedagogic need and taking a really mission focused approach to that issue, which is as we know as many of us know is a very complex one as to what actually does in for in constitute circumvention of technical protection measures. But when it comes to institutional policies, the final sentence here I've picked out, which is whilst educators need to check those policies, copyright exceptions do remain a powerful tool for enabling access to audio visual content where licenses are unavailable. So we have got here some next steps that we're going to be doing so but we are going to be unfortunately you're not going to be able to make the ice pops. Oh, yes, the ice pops conference in September 2022 last year, we did do a brief update on it. We're actually going to be talking about it in July 2023, aren't we? Yeah, I included those because those were the next steps I showed the previous ice pops conference just to show that we actually did three of the main things we said we would do. So we did get the draft peer reviewed by the workshop participants, we got it vetted by the copyright advisory panel, we published it this week. And I think the next step is basically endorsement and adoption and dissemination and they thought I would just encourage this audience to please help us do that. If you can link to the code from your lib guides or from your personal blogs, whatever, the dissemination is of course a very important part of it. So Bart, I can see we've had quite a few questions come up in the chat while we've been talking so I don't know if this is a good time now to just have a look at some of those questions. I don't know if anybody who asked a question might want to just kind of give us a bit more detail. So our first question I think came from Kirsty which was a query about showing the film I Daniel Blake to nursing students where they felt that the whole film would give students a better understanding of the topic. It's a film I know has been shown I think at my university as well to nursing students. Kirsty, I don't know if you've got more that you can tell us about that, what your particular concern might be there or Bart if you want to respond to that question. I mean showing the whole film in that instance seems to me fairly clear. Sorry it's Kirsty can you hear me? Yes we can hear you. Sorry chat's not very good and my brain disconnects when I'm typing. I said yes because when I said to them what do you want it for and they just said well it's to give them I can't remember the detail because I don't think they gave me the full detail but they said it was the whole film was to give the students a sort of context or a background. I think it was on the social issues that might impact people who then interact with I think it was mainly nursing students but I can't remember the module so it's that indirect application. Absolutely I think that's very useful Kirsty for the clarification and I think the issue here is quite clear that we have created a code that is focused on film education and film educators so really frames it and we spoke to that community for whom working with film is absolutely integral and essential to what they do and the question inevitably comes up as as often does how does this relate to any other teacher working in any other discipline and do the same principles apply so Bart do you want to talk us through kind of the background as to why we chose this field and how these principles may or may not apply elsewhere. And Philippa I see has asked a very similar question about showing a film to medical students yes. Yeah no I think that's a very very important point from you know many points of view like the yeah I mean in terms of I mean that makes me wonder whether we should somehow integrate or you know clarify that you know most of these principles also apply to you know any disciplines really but yeah I mean the way why the reason why we chose to start with one particular community is also again we follow the approach of you know the the American University basically around the fair use codes you really need to get a granular idea of you know how different the different needs of different communities. But this kind of you know data so to speak are really interesting and you know in principle I think you Kersti gave the right advice there I mean it's also speaks to two of the points we try to make clear throughout our code. The first is that you know yes if you can I mean if the educator can explain the educational value of showing the whole film then in principle that's fair and therefore lawful then you need to look at the considerations you know to make sure that you know the specific use you're going to make is actually lawful you know provide some efficient acknowledgement unless it's impossible and so on and so forth. But yeah I mean in principle I would say that the vast majority of the principles and legal considerations included in our code would apply to using films for any educational purposes. We just framed those through the eyes of film educators specifically because that was you know one of the communities especially during the lockdowns at the beginning who were struggling a lot. Yeah and absolutely I also think to add to that the question is it okay to show a film to students as we know from any copyright question the devil is in the detail exactly how are you doing and I'm not suggesting that we drill into that now but clearly there is yeah if it's showing in a in an actual physical location and that's clearly covered and has been for many years under section 34 it depends on where it's being sourced from it depends on how you're managing that and what we say in the code about going to license sources first of all and looking at those because they present effectively zero risk and our services that are operated by by organisations there to make it easy for us rather than us going through you know additional steps. Should we pick up there's another question about from Susan considering the credits of a film to be sufficient acknowledgement so presumably Susan means if you if the credits are just kind of being shown on the screen Susan do you want to come in? Yeah this is quite a practical question really we have a closed video collection that was done the ERA license which is now pretty old shall we say mouldering down in our basement level and we're looking at a format shifter off there and things so I a previous end of the ERA license you had to do quite strict this is the name of the film this is you know to go things like that they had to be added to the box the physical sense now we're shifting it over to a digital format and putting that in a closed space behind a login so it is safely stored and things like that do you need would you say that the credits of the film now I know that Emily's discussed this previously the credits of the film that role that tell you who the direct to produce everything everyone involved the film is part of that is that enough or do you feel that has to be an attached file that goes with the content to state the things that used to be physically stuck on a video do you know what I mean yeah I think there's there's a couple of things here there's there's the acknowledgement as per the copyright exceptions and then there's also the requirements of the ERA license I think that they're two different things and I think we wouldn't want to comment on what ERA would regard as acceptable under the license but I think what what is quite clear is when you're relying on copyright exceptions there is a need to be absolutely clear and indicate the basis on which the material is being made available in order to encourage the response or you know require the responsible use by students and by other staff and I would have thought some sort of citation that appears on the screen before the film is shown is you know important and you know if it's a digital file something in the metadata as well but I think that what we've been looking at and and again these are the conversations that I've had not as part of this project but as part of what what we've done within institutions that you know we've been talking about is is that there is a need to make a specific notification of the way that this material has been made available and that seems to be the appropriate place but do you want to share your thoughts on that? Yeah I don't know I mean that's not an issue I've been thinking about in depth but you know it's definitely an interesting and important one I mean from a low point of view I mean I would say if the work includes credits at the end I mean that probably would take the sufficient acknowledgement box and but yeah the only other consideration I feel like I can make is the you know that yeah you only need to credit the authors of the work not the copyright owners so again you know as we explained the code as soon as you credit the producer and the principal director then under the exceptions yes the you know that requirement should be met yeah but at the end of the year license probably is a different matter but yeah I don't know you probably know more about this I mean that's just my intuitive reaction. There is a guide isn't there I think on the Learning on Screen website about citation? What do you have on the website? Yeah there is one. We can grab the link to that. Yeah and I think that would be that would be worth just sort of flagging up at this point. Okay thank you. Thank you very much for the question a very good point yeah so the the next one from Grant is picking up on the term reasonable license conditions which is obviously open to quite a bit of interpretation but appreciates that we are keeping this vague again what we would we were doing in addressing this is to say if you say if there are licenses available are they potential licenses or are they actually licenses which are focused on the educational market so again reasonable is a word that is open to interpretation but we didn't want to either close it down any more than it needed to be nor open it up any further or try to sort of create a clear line because there are I mean there are there are things out there where you could potentially I guess get a license to do some of this but they're not necessarily aimed at the educational market don't align with what is allowed under UK law so would not necessarily recognise that we have exceptions that allow us to do certain things. Fart did you want to give your thoughts on that? No I think you are your dress it's very well so yeah we can go to the next one. Okay excellent. Philip has asked whether we're going to be blogging and writing about the guidelines we were just obviously we're going to be doing quite a lot of promotion about the guidelines there is a press release that's been circulated and I think we are looking for opportunities to write about it I think Chris and I were just saying we should probably have a chat with you Bart about whether we're going to write an article about it as well. I think we definitely do want to continue to communicate I think one of the challenges we have is given the amount of work that we did to balance the statements that we made we need to ensure that we're sort of not then adding extra bits to the code that aren't necessarily based on the evidence or the analysis that that are sort of so we need to think those through properly but we certainly do want to be giving examples or finding use cases where people have actually used them and have been able to because we hope that this makes things you know unlocks the potential of audio visual content. Yeah we've got a really useful comment from Chris Erickson at the University of Glasgow about a new research study on the legal status of DRM and technical protection measures and how they relate to the enjoyment of intake I love the fact you enjoy exceptions yes indeed we always enjoy exceptions yeah I think those results sound fascinating Chris so look forward to to hearing more about that study and hopefully chatting to you in Glasgow in a few months. Absolutely I noticed Alex Fenlan's question so Alex has picked up on the comments that Grant has made about personal streaming services so yes in mentioned in the hard case in A around using personal streaming subscriptions and how does that relate to the lawful acquisition point that I was making there around format shifting so the the difference there is in A we're talking about showing playing performing to students you know and putting that in an online context as well whereas the other one is about format shifting taking something from that service and then moving it into a file that is then hosted within you know within an institution's own system so that's that's the distinction between those two so I hope that makes sense um I don't know whether there was something additional to that Alex if you want to yeah I don't know Alex if you want to say anything to clarify if that has answered your question sort of yes sort of no um thank you um I think um I think that the issue here that follows up from that is about synchronous and asynchronous delivery then I suppose right and so when it's when it's synchronous um streaming it live is covered under A but in an asynchronous model it applies to D right yeah so where you rip it and stick it on a VLE then then D applies and A doesn't um lots of the practice that we know that takes place our institution is more D than A I think in a hybrid and blended learning environment which we still live with it so I found that an interesting distinction within the code itself and yeah just making it clear that there are differences in the live performance rather than the the ripped performance as it were yeah absolutely so the in in the A section what the question we primarily get is is it okay to show my students a film in the classroom I don't have the DVD but I do have my subscription can I show them something from whatever streaming service they're using and really that's what that one was intended to cover then the question you you know the point you make about asynchronous delivery is absolutely valid and that's why we kind of we make the point of principle in in that first uh use A but then when it came to actually doing the format shifting that's a kind of separate area of activity that we put into that area and and did make that distinction between owning things on a title basis versus kind of all you can eat access yeah thank you I mean we normally have copies of the dvds in the library collection right um going back a few years when people used to have dvds and dvd players around um so it's it's the the institution would have that lawful copy and we would have that anyway um what I'm concerned about institute versus licenses and permissions lawful access versus personal private subscriptions where the university doesn't have that lawful access to that content so that's what's really triggering my concern I suppose but but I've spoken too much already well I've just just picking up what Evelyn's asking as well as there's a question that's sort of related um about if you buy the dvd so you have legitimately acquired it but you end up for the purposes um of you know showing the film via a personal subscription rather than format shifting I think there's you know it's it it probably comes down to risk doesn't it and institutional decisions here the there's I think there's no getting away from the fact that when we're talking about copyright and we're talking about weighing up exceptions versus licenses um each it has to be done on a case by case basis each institution has to develop its own policy um so we feel that what what this code does is it sets out the kind of center ground it identifies where the edge cases are and then there is a certain amount of um flexibility there's flexibility within there yeah and I think what we what we want to avoid is creating uh clear bright lines that effectively act as a ceiling rather than floor that's that's the classic um challenge there but I think we're we're going to draw things to a close but have you got any thoughts on any of that discussion any of those questions or any of the some principles no again yeah we only have three minutes left so no I think yeah I just wanted to make a very similar point that you know this discussion speaks to both one of the main challenges of this kind of exercises and initiatives but also to an opportunity I think so the challenge as you said you know you don't want to you know present it as a you know as a ceiling of uh you know permitted activities rather as a as a floor but also there is the future proof challenge you know we don't want to go into a long for a lot of detail because what are you know the current technical challenges dealing with DVDs and you know personal situations may well not be you know the the challenges that film educators will face in five 10 or 15 years but then the opportunity related to that I think is which also sort of speaks to the comment made by Philip about you know like disseminating it through blogs and I just wanted to highlight you know I think the importance of events like this one and we should do more of these you know with different communities and different people because and also I wanted to take the opportunity to share another create project which is very similar where we produced other codes of best practices for documentary filmmakers and immersive curators so basically what I think one of the main findings of going through these all these different projects is that you know apart from the you know the value of the code itself there's a lot of value in the process of code developing these codes with the communities you know like there is value in you know like collecting the data as those I showed earlier but I think there's a lot you know as I mentioned at the very beginning you know the ultimate goal is to encourage positive change in behavior so people you know become more aware of the law and take advantage of you know the opportunities offered by the law and what I've seen is that a lot of that happens by code developing the code with the community you know not just by you know it's not just the final product and disseminating the final product that has that effect but just you know doing the workshops and you know talking with people about these issues you know raises awareness and does encourage positive changes in behavior so yeah so I just wanted to end on that comment we think yeah we'll leave it there that's fantastic but we are almost at 12 o'clock so we're just conscious of keeping everybody to time if they've got to get somewhere else but thank you for joining us and we will be at the ice pops conference also getting feedback and talking to you we'll be running a session about this code there if you want to drop us a line if you've got any thoughts absolutely carry on the discussion on the list copy seek discussion list we'd be very happy to to take this forward so it is just remains for us to tell you what we've got coming up and because of the ice pops conference in July we're not planning to run a webinar in July because we're going to be really busy getting everything ready for the conference and we'll also be taking a break in August but we are looking to restart the webinars in September currently we are looking to schedule some topics for the September and October event November is already lined up we're going to have a discussion about open textbooks with David Bills at Brunel University and some colleagues who are working on an exciting open textbook project and yeah if you've got ideas for future webinars then please drop us a line brilliant thank you so much everyone and thanks again to Bart for joining us it's been it's been a great really really great but yeah this is just the beginning this is the first launch event for this code and we will be doing lots more about it um we've got one last thing one last thing I know people need to head off that's fine we're just pointing out that Mark Lewisen who we did a podcast with on Copyright and the Beatles he is the leading world leading Beatles historian um he's going on tour he's going well he's not really on tour is he's going to London and he's going to Salford he's going to London and Salford um but if you wanted to find uh do immerse yourself in as much deep Beatles as we are now um here is his uh Beatles Evolver 63 so we're going to the one with Johnny Maher he's talking to Samira I'm with Harry Hill Kevin Helden so it's next week in talk about codes and fair practice with us oh he loves talking about copyright doesn't he? Bart loves talking about copyright yeah so yeah and Bart and I love talking about um what series we're watching on Netflix at the moment don't we just to annoy you or other streaming services that are available so Bart for people who are still here what are you watching at the moment you're binge watching or you've just finished watching the latest recommendations from me yeah I just finished watching Blue Lights which was another great recommendation uh from Eugene thanks very much although I have to say that uh he also recommended Happy Valley which was on the BBC I play yeah which I thought is probably one of the best things we went down a kind of dark gritty police dog drama sort of uh strand didn't we yes yeah yeah so I'm gonna stop the recording okay thank you very much for coming everybody see you next time