 What's your name, bro? Elliot, mate. Elliot. Good to meet you, Elliot. So, I'm sitting out here in the middle of the street with this sign that says, live auctions are the slave trade. Yeah. Proved me wrong? Can you prove me wrong? I cannot prove you wrong. I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe that slavery is a relative term, which we've adopted treatment of other humans. Yeah. But I do, in the way that the word is meant, it is slavery. However, I understand that the treatment of animals is completely not right. Yeah. However, I don't feel it's slavery as they don't have rights, but then again, slaves in the past didn't have rights, they were treated as animals, so in one sense, yeah. Yeah. Well, you kind of talked yourself around that there. So the way I judge whether or not something is slavery or murder is I just put humans in place of the animals, and then what happens? Yeah, no, then it is, but then again, I don't think you can put humans in place of animals. Humans and animals are worlds apart, certain animals, for example, like less emotional animals. So pigs, obviously pigs are one of the animals that are treated some of the worst in the factories and stuff, and that is, that's disgusting how they're treated. Okay. They're tortured, basically. Yeah. In the factories. That separates us. What is the difference, like what is the characteristic about animals that is so different to us? What is it about them that exempts them from being slaves? It is that they are, as in, so if we were less evolved and we were hunter, we weren't farming people as we were, if we were hunter-gatherers, we would be a predator and animals would be our prey. Farming animals is different, obviously, because it's just collecting huge numbers of, well, prey, so to speak. So you have to look at it that way. So you're talking about a survival situation back then. I'm talking about right now, animal agriculture as it stands, taking animals right away, treating them as property, killing them, selling them off in live auctions. You don't think that that's slavery because there's something about animals that's different to humans. What is it? We, they're a different species. We classify animals as different. As in we classified slaves in the odd days as a different species, so we separate ourselves. It's not the same, obviously, now. And I would say, I wouldn't say that. Species is the difference. Yeah, I would say so. It's a whole culture, they don't understand what's happened to them. They only understand what happens, they don't have any, these are two different things now. They don't understand what happens to them and species. If there was a group of human beings from another planet and they came, they were different species that enslaved us, that wouldn't then be slavery because we are a different species to them. That is a very good point. It's hypothetical. Seeing if you're logically consistent with your argument, that's all. Yeah, I get what you're saying. Well, I would say it depends on the intelligence of the people. If we were there, if we were there, we're vastly less intelligent, so let's just say the same gap of intelligence from us to these aliens as it is from us to animals. So we're vastly less intelligent than these alien species that come down. Well, then we would probably be farmed and killed. And that wouldn't be slavery. Oh, no, that would, yeah, 100%. Why isn't it slavery with animals? If you're talking intelligence, then you're talking species. Those two things are both thrown into the mix, so vastly more intelligence, different species to us come down, enslave us, that wouldn't be slavery because they're highly intelligent and a different species. Well, to them, it might not be slavery, but to us, as everything is relative. Look at it from the view of the victim. From the view of the victim, we would see it as slavery, but we... How do the animals see it? I don't know. I haven't asked them. OK. But we... How do you reckon they feel about having no liberty? Oh, yeah, no. It's horrible. They... Do you think they enjoy being treated as property and walked into a slaughterhouse? No. Well, some animals, as in very stupid animals, such as chickens and stuff, they don't know what's happening, but more evolved animals, like pigs... You don't think chickens know what's happening? Sorry, I have to press you on that. Do you know much about bird intelligence? Not as much as you, probably. I don't know. Yeah, no, I don't know. I just know that certain animals... I want to tell you a fact about chickens. When they hatch, they go to this place, it's a hatchery, and they separate males and females, and the males will be minced up in a macerator because they don't produce eggs. But it's been proven scientifically that, upon hatching, these birds can recognise their siblings. Oh, right. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, no. That is... So, if you knew more about chicken intelligence, would you still think that they were... You know, just... Would you look at a chicken and just think that's just a walking bit of meat? Well, it depends, because we classify animals so differently into pets, food, like... Animals... Obviously, you have, like, petting farms, stuff like that. We wouldn't classify them as necessarily pets or food. They're just kind of there to be there. Would you say that is slavery, having animals in petting zoos? Okay, well, I would say are they being exploited? Yeah, to the next thing. I would say that that's slavery, then. They're being exploited for profit, and they're treated as property, and I think those petting zoos actually kill the pigs afterwards when they... Yeah. If they're being exploited, in a sanctuary, though, when they're being guardians of the animals and looking after them, treating them like you would treat, you know, children that you adopted, I think that that's not slavery, I think that's just guardianship. No. Although, you say you're just saying about having exploited money, millions and millions of people are exploited all across the world. Would you say that is slavery? Well, if it is slavery and they're not being paid, then, yeah, I'd say that's slavery. Well, there's being paid, and there's being paid. If they're making so little money that they can barely afford to live, and they are forced to do this job or this task, so, say, thousands of women... Forced by a circumstance, you mean? Oh, yeah. Forced by their circumstance to work a cheap job? They have no other alternative, so it's... So they're working the best job available to them? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, would you say... So what's the alternative to working the best job available to you? Well, there isn't. Okay. But they are forced into that. It might be... They've got no other choice. Okay, but are you causing that to happen to these people by virtue of your purchases? Yeah, it's just mass consumer capitalism, which causes, forces people into circumstances which are... So are you paying for slavery on a daily basis, like you are with animals? Oh, yeah, 100%. Well... All the things we buy, our shoes, our clothes... You think everything's made by slaves? You know what slavery is, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. I think it's more slavery of circumstance and the definition of... Having a low-paying job is different to slavery, you know? That's what I'm speaking about. So sweatshop workers, all that. Yeah. I don't believe that they are treated. Well, you've heard stories, they're chained up. I would say that's modern-day slavery. If they're chained up, I don't know if they're being paid. Are they... That's actual slavery? Well, that's... I'm not sure about that. So you'd have to talk about the circumstance and then I could analyze it and tell you if it isn't slavery. But with animals... Yeah. In the dairy industry, for instance... Oh, yeah. They're fed into existence, used for profit, milked, having their children stolen from them and then murdered for their bodies and sold as hamburgers. That's objectively murdering slavery, no? Yeah, yeah, no, 100%. So you agree with me, this is slavery then? I do agree with this slavery. Although I do love meat. I'm a meat eater and I know this wrong, 100%. Yeah. You know, I'm going to say a few things about that I love meat thing because when you look at someone who... Because, you know, loving meat is the taste, yeah? You love the taste? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's pleasure response, yeah? Yeah. So in what other context do people gain sensory pleasure from a victim that is harmed? Boxing, sports. Well, that's a mutual agreement. I'm talking about whether there's an oppressor and a victim. We could talk about rape. We could. Yeah. So he gains a sensory response, pleasure from another person's... Yeah. However, I think comparing eating meat... I know it's... Well, I'm talking about the act and the response. So it's just like, I get a pleasure response from beating a dog because I'm a sicko, you know? Yeah, no. It's on the sensory level, it's the same thing. If you're gaining pleasure from someone else's demise and torture and slavery and... But it's not... You're not gaining it from someone's. We classify as gaining it from some things. So you agree that animals can be slaves, so they're someone's, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So you are gaining pleasure from someone's death? Yeah, they don't own themselves. They are, by definition, slaves. They don't get paid. We gain from them. Yeah. Yeah, no. So do you think taste justifies a holocaust of animals? No, I don't. But I think it will continue until we all die. So it's still going to happen, hey? Yeah. Humans are always going to kill each other? For the foreseeable future until we start to run out of... And that starts with you? That starts with people like you? Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. I know, I know it does, but it's just... You know what, brother? I'll leave you there. This is a little vegan challenge on Facebook you can do for 22 days, and I appreciate the conversation, bro. No worries, cheers. Thanks for being so honest to me. No worries, brother. XBBC. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. I've interviewed a lot of vegans who break down, literally break down under cross-questioning. Yeah. However, I'm impressed you didn't break down.