 My name's Stuart Griffiths, you know, went to Sutton Coalfield in Birmingham past the, uh, the Paris selection. My platoon sergeant was, was mentioning dispatches on Mount London. It really seemed like a scrap. I was picked to be in the Baynit, Baynit practice team to perform in front of Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher. Stuart, how are you brother? I'm okay, I'm okay Chris. Just surviving, cracking on. Yes, as, as we do. We're going into this one, Hot Friends at Home. Stuart's very kindly agreed to come on the podcast. I can't remember who put me in touch with Stuart, but one of you very kindly suggested to get this gentleman on my show. And when I watched the podcast that Stuart did, it was like listening to myself. And we've had a similar lifestyle, both being homeless, both being in O'Banner, both being veterans who push for peace, although Stuart might correct me on that and say no. But yes, mate, let's just go, go for it. Shall we start right at the beginning? Because I'm always fascinated with childhood stories. We hear a lot about PTSD and people seem to think it's something you get on the battlefield. And I often try to point people out, no, most soldiers are pretty shitty childhoods. And the, the, the resettlement when you come out of the forces having been looked after for all this time is quite a shock to deal with, especially when all that trauma comes back and you've never had to really get to deal with it. So what, what, what was your younger years like, mate? I had a great childhood. I lived in, I was brought up in a place called Ultingham in South Manchester. Neighbours I had, which was Bob Grease from Granada Reports, lived down the road because I had a paper round when I was about 11. Over the wall where I lived was the lead singer of the soft prog rock bang, no, not prog rock, but sad cafe. And it was kind of a really great kind of, you know, a lot of the Manchester influence and all that. So if you like a lot of the, the musicians that did well would move kind of to like neighbouring Hale and Bowden and all that. My childhood was, was great. I mean, and then we moved to Warrington. And then it wasn't so great because it was a new town and it was, it was a kind of overspill area for, for Mancunians and Scouts. And I was age 13. I was at that kind of age where, I mean, I was at the time of it. I was, I was into the mod fashion. So I used to go to Manchester on a Saturday morning and we'd hang out at the cave shop, which is an alternative fashion shop. We got to Affleck's Palace. And then we'd go to this club, which was basically to get all the mods off the street because we were just laying outside this shop into a place called Cloud 9. And that was great. And yeah, you know, and I think what was, you know, it's a real difficult age anyway, especially if you're moving from somewhere like Ultingham, if you like, which was, you know, I mean, a lot of people say it's, it's quite a well to do posh area. I mean, maybe it was, but that was my, I kind of grew up in that environment. And, you know, I could go into detail about many things, but off the offset, it was okay. And then I joined the Army Cadets when I lived in Warrington age 15. And that kind of gave me a sort of sense of direction. I mean, funny enough, really, I mean, I was always good at art at school, drawing, cartooning. And that was my kind of thing. So as a, as a, as a young kid, I mean, you know, I grew up in this pictures of me when I was three years old with my action man. Toy, you know, he's Red Devil's outfit and stuff like that. My mother had a big family network, you know, many family, like nine. So I felt safe, you know, and all that. But as growing up, you know, it was either art school or the Army, funny enough, and other two completely polar opposites. And I'm going to join the Army Cadets. That was, you know, because obviously you don't want to be playing with your action man when you're at 15. It's a bit, a bit chance. Still throwing them out the bedroom window with a Tesco carrier bag. Well, my paratrooper action man, Red Devil's outfit, someone down the road actually tried to activate the parish. And I think it hung on the electricity wires for, it hung there a lot longer. We just kind of forgot about it. But what kind of, the actual, sorry, I'm just a bit intermittent from work. I'm doing this call from where I work, a veteran charity. But yeah, join the Army Cadets gave me a sense of direction, if you like. And I really embraced that. But even when I was an Army Cadet, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to join the parachute regiment. And that was really stemmed from when I was a paper boy, delivering newspapers. And I was 10 years old, which was quite young to have to have a paper round. But I managed to get one off this guy who was giving it up. He was like, look like the guy, the lead singer from Echo and the Bunnyman, McCulloch. And so yeah, the Falklands War, if you like, was the thing. And seeing the black and white pictures from Mount Longdon, taken by Tom Smith of the Daily Express. And also the television program, the Paras as well. I'd watched that. And I remember this really unusual, I thought it was a documentary, but it was actually a film, but it was AFN Clark's Contact. And I remember, is this real or is this a film? But it was all about Northern Ireland and Amar and stuff. But I was just really fascinated by all that. And I think maybe it was because of this action that I had when I was three years old in his Red Devil's outfit. And watching a parachute display within Shore Park, around that same age. And so that was my kind of journey. I was kind of told at school anyway. And I was seen as a bit of a school failure, really, because I'd never had the qualifications to get into art school. And again, moving from the age of 13 and stuff, into a place like Warrington. And yes, school got violent. We had the Grange Hill thing. It was ammo and smacked out of his head. Kids were doing heroin and chasing the dragon. And it was all kind of part of the norm. And more of these things were happening, the more I thought joining the parachute regiment would be a great place to be part of. I won't say I had much military connections in my family. My father, he was a butcher by trade. My grandfather, he was based at Ringway Airport in the Second World War, with the RAF. But that's about it, really. Because even when I look at my real father's family background, it's all travelers, Romani gypsies, French Jewish, all sorts of stuff in the mix. And here I was trying to find myself in the world and what was I going to do with it. And for me, Parra-Edge was the thing. And I have to admit, it wasn't easy. But I remember going to Sutton-Colefield doing the selection thing. And again, my calling up papers to join the 40th Platoon Junior Parachute Company. And I thought this was brilliant. This was really, I felt really that I was part of something and something that was something proper. And then, obviously, you do your P Company selection. And I don't mind admitting, I first time 17, I had a little bit psychologically, whoa, this is like immense, because what happens with the P Company selection is you get this whole new training stuff coming, the P Company stuff with the blue zippers and the big mustachios. And it's the psychological thing. I mean, it's just the way that I Android's from outer space. And so I did it on my third attempt, but that's how dedicated I was to be part of this airborne brother thing. And like you say, PTSD, things like that. I mean, I know a lot of the lads I serve, we've come from broken homes and things like that. But for me, the trauma was Northern Ireland and it was just the kind of veracity of that, the intensity of the hatred. I don't think I've ever quite felt that I've never experienced anything like that in my life. And it was so thick, it was like kind of suffocating. So, yeah. I mean, if we want to talk trauma and stuff, mind stem from them Northern Ireland tours. Let's go back a bit, mate. First off, can I just say, you look remarkably young for your age, Stuart. Your paper round must have been piss easy. Yeah. And then you had a few paper rounds. You had the weekly paper as well. Yeah, I've always been one to keep active. I mean, even where I work now, I walk to work. I do a lot of, you know, in terms of my photography as well. Although I don't really work in a professional capacity. I'm still taking photographs. I've sort of, I've got myself a big Mamiya, this Mamiya universal press camera, which Don McCullen uses. He's like a famous photographer. Did a lot of conflicts, sort of around the 60s and 70s, Vietnam and all that. But he used this camera to do his moody landscape. So I got one over lockdown to kind of really slow the process down. So doing that, getting out and about is, you know, really the key. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm doing all right. I've not got loads of gray hairs considering. You've still got air, mate. Well done. And let's just give the parrots documentary and mention, because it was a classic, wasn't it? Oh, it's brilliant. Brilliant. But the thing is when I joined Free Parra, you know, and I joined B Company, and B Company Sergeant Major was the Sergeant Riley. He was nicknamed Mavis Riley, you know, in my time. And then there was the Fleming guy and there was the Conningham one, the one, you know, the one who was like, he was finding it difficult to get around certain things, but he had that, you know, he had that kind of spirit, but he was still it. So it was quite interesting seeing these characters from that television show in real time, you know. But yeah, I thought that program was brilliant. In fact, I even got in touch with Frank Hilton, who wrote the program or director. And I said, you know, your program inspired me to join the parachute regiment. And he went, oh dear, what have I done? You know, it was like he had the opposite kind of reaction, which I thought was quite interesting. But yeah, yeah, it served a purpose of that time. And, you know, honestly, when I was at Depot, it was a little bit more brutal because there wasn't TV cameras there. But yeah, all that stuff, apart from the fact we used SA80s instead of SLRs, and we didn't have putties. We had, you know, DMS high. It was all exactly the same. Yeah. What year were you born and what year did you join up? Well, I was born in 72. And I joined in 88. Same as me, but you were two years younger than me. Right, yeah. I just had my 50th birthday. Congratulations. Thank you. Hey, life starts at 50, mate. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I truly believe. Yeah, I'm fitting. Well, I'm not fit at the moment. I'm waiting for a spine operation. I bust a disc. But ordinarily, I'm like, I've never been fitter in my life and stronger than I am now, which is just insane. But I remember the Paras, I think he was a black brummy lad. And after the... I think his name is what, yeah. After the balloon jump, which I've now done a couple of times, which is just, I love goals in life. I love seeing someone on Italian thinking, I'm going to do that one day. And then when it comes real, it's what I love about my life is all those moments. But they interviewed him out. The interviewer said, so how are you feeling when you're in the balloon cage? I was absolutely crap in myself. Me and my cousin had it on his VHS video. We just kept, we just kept rewinding. Oh, that's right, yeah. We just kept rewinding. I was absolutely crap in myself. I was absolutely crap in myself. Brilliant, yeah. Yeah, it is an unusual experience. They just say, look at the little bits of material hanging from the nose of the balloon. And you just hear this squeaky cage. And he's thinking, God, what am I doing? But, you know, you can't let yourself down. You can't let what you're doing, you know, the whole, you know, it's like everything rests upon this, you know, thing of just stepping over the edge. And yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was good. You know, there's been some sort of blips in my life and all that, but, you know, my informative years were taken, used up, you know, by, by the parachute regiment. And when I look at where I am now and the fact of, you know, I've got a wonderful wife. I've got, I've got two amazing, you know, not your teenagers now. They're not, they're not ever going to join the military. They just, they've got other things, more into the kind of filmmaking and music and all that. Because, you know, the things that I've always been interested in, but it laid some really good foundations in that sense. It's, I mean, I even talk about the fact when I first joined JPC and the first four weeks when we were basically confined to camp, it was actually really great, you know, because, you know, you weren't going downtown, you know, and getting, you know, because the whole thing, and this is, you know, which was part of the culture, especially part of the culture that time, you know, the alcohol and all that sort of stuff. And you weren't allowed to do any of that. And again, sort of reflecting on that kind of thing going downtown and blowing all your wages. When I, the unit photographer of, or the battalion photographer, I was interested in cameras and I, you know, and so when he started to teach me about the dart room, which was fantastic for me, because it stopped me going downtown, do you know what I mean? Yeah, you know, it's, I mean, luckily when you're in the military, you know, the next morning the PTI gets you up and you're going to go for a 10-miler. But this is where, when you haven't got that kind of infrastructure and you're in the civilian world and, you know, the bars are there, you know, and all that, but you haven't got the PTI there. So, you know, it's a bit like where I work, you know, one guy said, well, you know, it's like you really want to be confined to some kind of like institution where he was had to garden or do this and he wasn't lured by off licenses, do you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's a bit like, a bit like the internet, isn't it? We've, we've got so much information out there. And it, you know, people just start spinning out, do you know what I mean? And it's, so yeah, I think what I've learned, especially nowadays is just to, and it's like with the photography I'm doing, it's just slowing, slowing things down. You know, I mean, I must get, we've got these people, all these kind of road works going on, trying to get all these internet fiber optics everywhere. I'm thinking, do we really need that? Do you know what I mean? It's, it's, you know, what we should be doing is slowing down. I mean, my wife's, she's an environmentalist and stuff. So I think, I think it's rubbing off on me. And we should give the power, as I mentioned, well, especially three power doubt, well, all, all, all, all the men in the Falklands, but long done from what I've read. I've also had the pleasure of having Jimmy James O'Connor on the podcast. Yeah, Jimmy. Yeah. That seemed like the most brutal. Oh, yeah. Brutal battle out of the, friends at home, you're welcome to correct me in the comments and apologies. I mean, no offence, but it really seemed like a scrap. Whereas in some of the other battles, I think there was less, less casualties because the Argentine seemed to run away, got to a certain point and then they just fled. Yeah. Again, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm only going on what I'm trying to make sense. Yeah. But long than, when they talked about the treasure hunting at the end, that was like a, it was a real big thing to go around and basically Rob, Rob the Argentines of anything that they could find for souvenirs and rations, I'm guessing, and the rest of it. Yeah. Well, I was talking to someone because I'm, I'm what brand secretary of the local parish association here in Hastings. And I was talking to a veteran of Mount London. And, you know, there was all, I mean, if anyone's, you know, read anything, they would have come across the Green Eyed Boys book, which is, it's a fascinating read. I think Helen Parr's Our Boys is equally good. And if, if not better, a bit more of a, of a newer, and I know Helen, and I think she's a great person. And her brother was killed on, on the wireless ridge. He was too para, but he was saying the old Stuart McLaughlin and the, the Argentine is he can, well, how do you have any time to do that? Cause it was literally, you know, attacking a jagged mountain and with Bain it's fixed. Do you know what I mean? And the mayhem and the chaos and, and, you know, the, and it, you know, I can't, I wasn't there, but from what I have learned from, from the guys who were there, it was just, just, yeah, it was, it was the kind of a real ultimate baptism of fire and, you know, the pair's fire manoeuvre, the whole, the, the insanity of where it was just chaos and let's get a brew going, which, and I get all that. You know, it's, it's like a kind of moment of, of, you know, well, yeah, insanity. And I watched a documentary recently on channel four about the Falklands. They were saying, oh, 10 minutes and we could have lost the war, but that's war. Every second counts, every minute, things can change just like that. You know, I mean, I never experienced, you know, that kind of war thing, but in Northern Ireland, things would just go boom, do you know what I mean? And just change, you know, and it was unbelievable, just how, you know, things just got out of hand and you think, how, how did that happen? How did, how did, how did this escalate to this, this immensity, you know? But yeah, I've got a lot of time for, for, for, for that. And like I say, you know, it was then photographs that really was the inspiration. And it's, but then, you know, that's how you get, you know, youngster's going to do things. It's like, it, it was no glory in that. It's a bit like when I spoke to a very famous magnum photographer, Phillip Jones Griffiths, who photographed Vietnam and he did a book, Vietnam Ink, very famous book. It's probably one of the milestones in photojournalism. And I said to him, I said, well, you know, what you're doing is painting a real negative picture about the American effort. He said, how did, how did the Americans, you know, how did, you know, how did they react? He said, well, they said nothing. But at the same time, seeing them, then images of truth, it doesn't put you off from it. It's, for me as a young person, it was like, you know, I knew it would be, it would be a heavy ordeal, but I was curious to sort of, to see, you know, why in my own sort of way, you know. Yeah. But yeah, that jagged mountain. I remember photographing a Falklands Veterans reunion where they went to the graveyard in Aldershot. And I remember being so kind of like, I don't know, some really kind of, kind of hairs on the back of my neck, but seeing Jason Burt's gravestone and the Jewish star of David, I was just like, you know, and it was just an amazing thing to see the fact that, you know, that these, and it was only 17, that these people were, you know, they came from a lot of love, you know, a lot of, you know, and respect in the house to them, you know, and I've got Jimmy's book, Three Days in June, the original one before it was made into a, you know, because you got a publishing deal. And it was just something incredibly fascinating and when it came to me doing my PhD research, which is on soldiers' personal photographs, you know, it was like I was building up to this, the abyss of war. And the abyss of war I was building up to was the Mount London thing in the Falklands. And yeah, I've read many accounts of that. And again, because I had instructors in Junior Parra, I mean, my platoon sergeant was mentioning dispatches on Mount London, you know. You know, another guy, one of my other corpals, you know, he was on, it was so, you know, these people that are on there, they were training me to be a fighting soldier. So if you can imagine the intensity of that, it was based upon charging jagged mountains with bayonets fixed. And I remember when I was doing bayonet practice in 1988 and I was picked to be in the bayonet practice team to perform in front of Gorbachev and Margaret Fatscher. But he got called off because of the Armenian earthquake. So yeah, mad, isn't it? You know, but I was, yeah, and I still find it fascinating. And the facts of, you know, Robert Lawrence and Tummeldown, brilliant. I thought it was a great film, but nothing's ever been done about Mount London, you know, film-wise. I think I heard something in The Great Vine about Nigel and the Goose Green story. Yeah, Nigel's been trying to get something going there, isn't he? He's made some inroads. Yeah, but I'd love to get to, I mean, I tried to, I applied for a Shackleton fund. Unfortunately, I wasn't successful. But I'd love to kind of get out there. And my, what I wanted to do was photograph what was left from the war in 1982. And, you know, obviously, you know, the bits of PCARAs and stuff that were in Pebble Island. And yeah, I mean, being in Pebble Island, my CO, a free power, was, I got a military cross on Pebble Island. So the Falklands War was a really big thing in me as a young soldier that, you know, I looked at that as, that was the kind of zeitgeist of what soldiering was. And also, I've dealt with people that have, you know, caused a lot of stress and trauma. And it is real, you know, I mean, I had a really good friend who, he was nine squadron out in the Falklands and I was having to, you know, he was all over the place, you know, you know, Goose Green and Mount Longdon and, you know, everywhere, you know, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, he went on hunger strike in, in 2018 outside combat stress at the orderly court thing. And he contacted me because I was working in journalism at the time. And so I made sure I was with him and kind of lit the fuse with a journalist, if you like, and got that momentum going. But it was, you know, it's real. It's, you know, what was going down was, you know, yeah, it must have been quite immense. And there was something else I heard somewhere about this big flash of light. It's like this extreme kind of evil of war, you know, it just becomes, you know, like creating this sort of cloud of total negativity with, I mean, you know, there's stuff that you read about the bowl, you know, the way they get the guts of the first bowl and the second bowl and the fact that, you know, it just, yeah, it's, it's, from what I visualise in my mind, you know, it just seems like hell on earth, you know. So Stuart, what year were you in, you're in Belfast, weren't you? Well, I was posted to Free Para, who were on a residential tour of, operated from Palace Barracks in 1989. And, but I was still 17. So I was sent to the sergeant's mess first to be barman. And again, you know, sergeants, you know, they would be talking about Mount Longdon, so about four in the morning, you know, and it was quite an eye-opener to just hear, you know, not the glory of it, but the actual, the real, you know, nuts and bolts and gritty and, you know, the actual horrors of war, basically. And I did that, and then I then joined B Company when I turned 18 and joined Fort Platoon, which was nicknamed the Gypsy Platoon. I said, why is he called the Gypsy Platoon? So we're all, we're all come from broken homes and gypsies and stuff. I thought, well, I've got a bit of gypsy blood in me somewhere, so that is okay. But no, it was, in fact, to be honest, I remember joining B Company and Ron Duffy was still serving. Now, Ron Duffy, he was a Falklands War veteran. He was the kind of the 22-year Tom, because getting promotion wasn't always easy and the Toms, if you like, had, they were a real kind of strong force, force of nature, you know, whatever. And when I was doing my PhD research many years later, and the earliest photographs I got was from 1974 by a guy who served in Free Para, and they were of a parachute display in the Ardoin. And in that set of pictures is Ron Duffy. I was like, oh, wow. But he was a legend, and, you know, Jimmy would verify that. He's mentioned a lot in the narratives and the books of that battle. But yeah, he was a fascinating guy, and I always had time, even the two parallelads, a guy who survived Warren Point, and he was out in Goose Green. I mean, I still keep in touch to this day. I've always got time for the Falklands guys, because it's just something that I was just deeply fascinated as a 10-year-old when it all happened. And it was quite weird, because I remember my mother saying, saying, well, them young Argentinian conscripts haven't got a chance against those paratroopers, and I'm thinking, and as I look back at them, words, what she said, and I always remember them, I think, what did you know of the parachute regiment prior to the Falklands? Because my mother, she wouldn't really sort of talk much about feelings or stuff. Maybe that kind of the Northern Ireland model and what they read in the newspapers might have informed her to make that kind of description, because obviously they had a reputation. But again, I didn't know any of that. The only reputation I knew was from watching the television series and the newspapers. I was naive, I was a kid, I was 10 years old, but it was something I wanted to do. And I'm glad I did it, because I didn't want to stick around warrants in Newtown and just end up, I don't know what I'd end up, but it just seemed all pretty dead end to me. I wanted to make some of my life be part of something, and I think I had no qualifications when I joined up, because to me, there was no need, because this is what I was going to do, and I was going to do it. But yeah, and then reality comes back years later when you do a PhD stuff, and then you want to be a lecturer at a university and say, well, have you got a teaching degree? And then to get a teaching degree, to even press go, you need to have your GCSE maths and English, whatever. I don't want to be a teacher anyway, I'll just carry on being made. So you were like me, you carried a camera with you. I had a camera tucked into me combat, and we power a smock pocket, and every time I went past one of those murals, I would have got a camera, got to get a photo. So I've got quite a few photos of my time there, and I'd imagine there's probably a lot of the guys that haven't even got one. Yeah, yeah, I mean, because my stepfather was a really keen amateur, and he'd done national service with the Remy, and he was kind of like, well, if you're going to join up, why don't you go and get a trade? But I didn't want to do that. And I didn't quite get the marks needed to join like the engineers or the Remy and stuff, but I didn't want to do that anyway. But on my 18th birthday, he bought me an Olympus trip camera, and I actually found it when I was unwrapping it and stuff, because I was at Palace Barracks. I thought now I'm 18, I'm kind of old enough to vote, I'm old enough to drink alcohol, I'm old enough to actually have my own camera. There was a role of black and white film in it as well, which I thought was interesting because it was like, well, has he got a black and white role in a film because it makes things look more worry in black and white. But again, and as I know from my research on the soldiers, personal photography, a lot of pictures in Northern Ireland are taken on top cover, aren't they? Because you're away from the prying eyes of the platoon sergeant or the platoon commander. And I remember, if you've been in Belfast, Chris, you would have gone to the twin brooks around there. It's not even a great mural, but it was a Bobby Sands mural in Juniper Way. And it was like, I think there's some kind of IRA, sort of a roll of honor or whatever and a coffin, but everyone always should take pictures of that, and I took a picture of that, and it's got my rifle in the foreground, and you can see the fact that I'm in a vehicle. And I thought, oh, that's really great, I've captured everything in there, and even the snow on the ground. And then you see many other people have taken the same kind of photograph. It's quite interesting, interesting that. But yeah, I kind of did photography really, and years later they became interested as I started to get my work seen as a photographer. Because it was a world that was not really seen by the British photography kind of community, if you like. And so they were seeing this quite unique, but to me, they weren't because, like you say, you took loads of photographs yourself. So these photographs, there's many, many of them, but it's what you do with them, isn't it? And I was fortunate to, I had a solo exhibition of my pictures of soldiers that got seriously injured in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we had this kind of big exhibition space to fill, and I was showing the curator my kind of early stuff. And she said, oh, well, let's do an exhibition of that. And then I applied for this National Media Museum grant. And I was awarded that because they saw the pictures on the wall. So it all kind of worked handy in hand. And that's where my first book, The Myth of the Airborne Warrior came about. Although the title wasn't something I chose. That was down to the editor. Why did they choose that? Well, they chose that because, again, because I was a bit naive. I didn't really know about book publishing. And for me, it was a case of meeting halfway with these people. It was a case of, no, it's a good idea. I know it's a good idea because I've been working in. But do you know what I mean? So if we start to kind of protest, the uncertainty of all these things meant it might be delayed. It might be curtailed. Do you know what I mean? And so I kind of went along with it. I mean, even all the deduction of words and the black lines, I just thought, well, I remember sending a copy to the illustrator Ralph Steadman because I photographed him in 2010. I gave a copy of the book and he said, great book, great pictures, but why are these black lines over the words? Because, I mean, when we sent Bluey's home, they weren't looked at and black lined and all that stuff. Do you know what I mean? So I guess they thought it was arty. And I mean, photo works who published the book, I had nothing from them. I saw an annual in this gallery bookshop and it was reduced to about half price. And I think it was in 2015 or 2014. And I thought, you know, they're doing all these things. And I've never been really called up for to have any word or anything. It's like they've just put me in that pigeon hole as the ex-paratrooper who took photographs when he was a soldier. And then if you like that kind of eclipsed my later work, so all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, these poorly made photographs are taken on a compact camera. Aren't they unique, you know? And, but, you know, yeah, it was great to have a book. And then obviously the second book I did, Pig's Disco, which caused a bit of a frack especially with people I served with. And, you know, you think it's great and everything, but it does impact you, you know, especially... What was the controversy? Well, because we have these things like, you know, social media and Facebook, people went on the old attack. You know, it was like I disgraced the regiment. You know, I tarnished the free Paris reputation and all these things, you know, and it did get quite nasty. But it was all, you know, done, you know, through messaging or posting or this, that. And, you know, after a while, you know, it just went on for about two years, you know, solid. You know, it starts to kind of impact you after a bit. What was it that was triggering people? I think it was because it was the mention of drugs and stuff because, I mean, the context behind that, I mean, I was working for an organization called Vice Media or Vice Magazine back in the day where it was a magazine. And they were the kind of to inform people sort of under 21-year-olds about the mad world we live in. And I did a lot of work on gangs in Liverpool and I did, you know, the injured veterans, which was an article shredded by war. And the guy who was the editor was from Stockport. So again, the Northerners sort of seemed to look after themselves in a way where we helped each other, especially when we're in London, because it's a tough place to be, to work, you know, to just, you know, find your place, you know. And so anyway, I started to work with them. And again, I always had this portfolio of my snapshots that I always kept to say, well, this is my early work anyway. One of the guys working there was working in the art department and then he branched to make his own publishing company. And after the myth of the airborne warrior came out and I mentioned that I wasn't entirely happy by that. He said, well, I'd still like to do a book with you, but I need about 20,000 words because I want to do it as photos and words. I said, well, it just so happens I've wrote this radio play because I was waiting to go to Somalia with VICE and then that had changed and then I was going to go to Nigeria. And I had about 500 pounds worth of inoculations in my arm from this Harley Street clinic, you know, to go into these volatile areas. And I got sent nowhere. So I wrote this radio play called Pig's Disco. And it was a kind of sort of on the kind of, and it started really when, because after we had 1990, which was a really full-on year, a lot of stuff happened. And then we were on Christmas Reaparty Guard Duty at Palace. You know, a company had just been embroiled in this very controversial joyrider shooting. And we were there, you know, and of course, anyway, one of the senior guys from the platoon was going, you know, with a couple of big, so you ever tried any acid? I'm like, ah, well, I'm a bit sort of not into that. So there's a little bit of peer pressure, a little bit of intrigue. And of course, this whole thing of we're power edge, fuck it. You know what I mean? Ready for anything. So down the old Gregory it goes and part of beer and then all of a sudden we just sort of sat there and one of the guys got, oh, this is shit. You know, this is shit. Well, let's drink all our money. And I pulled out all my change from the pockets. And I remember looking at this section commander from the platoon and they saw his nose growing and stuff. And that's where it all kind of started to begin. And these were, I mean, the first time I'd ever done any of that kind of thing in my life, I was very anti-drugs, especially, you know, I was brought up the Grange, you'll just say no kind of campaign. You know, we don't want to end up like Zamo, you know, smacked out of his head in the school boys' toilets, you know. So we had this and it was something I'd never really experienced in my life. You know, it was like, you know, and that's what pigs this, it began with that, you know, this thing. And then obviously they'd say, you know, never do drugs because it leads on to other things. No, no, it doesn't. Well, it kind of does in a way. And so I was quite intrigued by that. And then obviously it was the early 90s and some of the lads would come back to Manchester, we'd go to the Acienda and stuff. And then, you know, it was ecstasy and everything else. And then there was a little bit of a cult going on in Freeparra, like the Freeparra ravers, you know. And the motto in Freeparra, for me, as I remember, all the parachute, in fact, I learned in Junior Parity Company Sergeant Major, it says, the crime is getting caught. You know, do what thy wills, like some Alistair Crowley thing, but the crime is getting caught. So, you know, we weren't blatantly, obviously I remember sat in the naffy coming down from, we were waiting in the cockhouse about six o'clock in the morning, looking like vagabonds, you know, around like waiting for the soup kitchen to arrive. Still, eyes like saucepan, got to the hot plate and I'm thinking, I've slopped spaghetti and I'm thinking, why have we got spaghetti for breakfast? And it's all moving on the plate. And I thought, God, the only thing, we've got to wait for the naffy to open. Do you know what I mean? Years later, in fact, when I actually got out of, yeah, towards the end of my parachute regiment career, when I decided that I was going to leave, you know, and there was like a rave club in Aldershot where all these ravers would come. And that was another factor, because it was like all the fit birds would go there, you know, and you'd be like, well, this is brilliant. And this one of these birds gave me this book. She said, you know, with a mind like yours, I think you should read this. And that was Hunter Thompson's fairing lovin' in Las Vegas. And of course, when I read that, I thought, Jesus, that's exactly what happened apart from the fact it's not in Las Vegas and it's not in the mink club or whatever, or whatever hotel. But what happened in that Christmas disco was, yeah, and so it was always something that I wanted to write about, but it was finding the right way. And if anything, I wanted to say, well, yeah, that was really how we dealt with trauma. That was how we alleviated what was going on in Northern Ireland, the intensity and the hostility and all these things. And we are just as normal as everyone else. And we went out and went raving as well. It was mad because you'd like to say it, well, not like you say, but what I've heard through narratives was this whole sense of, even football elegans were feeling the love. I mean, it was mad, going into the limelight and there was, it was like, you'd see a few of this sort of the full screws and stuff with their NBC gloves. I'm only thinking, well, what's going on? This is just mayhem. And the music, although I wasn't really into that, it just kind of took you away. And again, it was great fitness as well. It was like giving it the whole thing, but yeah, it was funny. Yeah, Ron Il's Ron Il gloves and the liners of the NBC thing. Yeah, it was funny. But yeah, so when that book came out and the hostility created, it was, yeah, I mean, I just thought, oh yeah, whatever yet she is, the old usual thing, but it does get to you. And how I managed to alleviate that, I mean, if it wasn't for the books, I wasn't being offered the PhD scholarship. So, but I explained this when I went to the unveiling of the airborne statue in 2019. And the only reason why I went there was because my friend Gus Hales, who went on hunger strike outside, he was a good friend of me. And I'd met him originally from veterans for peace. And it was, yeah, we got on because he was the airborne brotherhood, you know, I'm going to Aldershot for the statue unveiling. I said, well, do you know what? I really want to go to Aldershot because it's like, you know, for all the shit I've had. He says, no, it'll be good. I said, you know what? If you're going, I'm going. And I did. And of course, I went, got the train from Waterloo. As soon as I got off the train at Aldershot, all I could hear was, oh, I griff, you know, and it was guys I knew from up at soon. And then there was a bit of a moment when people were like, thinking, what is he doing here? And it felt a little bit like, you know, Moses when the sea parts were the ones that were for you and the ones that were against. But it was like facing the sort of the evil or the demons facing them in real time person, you know, in real time. And it was really cathartic because it's like, they weren't going to give me any crap. Do you know what I mean? It was like, you know, I was. Jesus Christ. It makes me laugh. Those people that it's like your job is you're a train killer. You're like the toughest dudes on the planet. And you get these strange thinking people that think that you're choir boys. Do you not know the job that we do? And you're having a go because mate, you want to go and dance all night and hug his mate. It's because of all the stigmatizing. You know, you can't blame these old boys. You know, they've got it in their minds, but the military is a cross section of society. So whatever goes on in society goes on the military and anyone that thinks it doesn't, it's just deluded. Exactly. And also, like, I can tell you, some of the in the Marines, the guys that got to the highest ranks, I'm talking they joined as like recruits, one of the men, and they've got up to the high up officers ranks by getting a commission. They was all at it, right? And one further, one chap who obviously will remain nameless went on to get one of the highest medals for bravery. He led a classic section attack. I'm not even going to say how many enemy his section took out, right? Just one section and it was in 100. Well, it was over a hundred. He was out Saturday night dancing his clogs off. You won't want better guys around you, but it's just one of them things. I get upset when it's a small minority that can get a guy like you upset when all the work you've done in your life, all the stuff you've done for peace, all the people you must have inspired, all the work you've done for my kid, and I've never even met you so that hopefully we don't have this bullshit war, you know, controlled by the bankers for the next generation and clearly looking at Ukraine we still bloody do have. And it's the same with my life. I mean, I've caned it in the past for good and for bad, but here's the thing. I live in paradise. You meet my kid, he's the greatest. He's just a gift from freaking God, man, right? So what does that tell me? It tells me I've made all the right decisions in my life, right? And I ain't changing them for some, you know, old, old sweat that hasn't got a life. And I know so many people listening, they have a good, they get it and we don't, what other people think that's their business and if it's sad, then they're sad individuals trying to put their rules on other people's lives. It's just pants, man. And, you know, he was a para, I was a rulemarine's commander. We were the toughest that they were. We all knew how to do the job. And that's the end of, you know, end of nothing more to be said on that. But it's all like the, I blame Zamo. Just say no. What they don't, what these individuals don't understand is, well, Zamo is going to meet Nancy Reagan and Irina Rusband are pushing this just say no campaign. Is CIA is bringing in all the stuff from Nicaragua and supporting a crack epidemic in the USA and then blaming it on the poor black community. It's phenomenal, isn't it? You have to read into these things and see it for what it really is. But yeah, and how I, you know, going back to, you know, it's a moment in time, isn't it? You know, and yeah, and I guess, I don't know, that's not our guess, but when I was there in Aldershot to say, well, if it wasn't because of that and doing that, then, you know, I mean, my argument was we're saying, there's not many ex-free para-toms that have got a doctorate, you know, and, you know, and I'm not just saying, you know, look at me, we're looking at me, but yeah, just a bit of respect. That's all we're kind of looking for, just a bit of respect and, you know, because that's what I give in return. And it's nice to have that in return too. Stuart, can I be really rude, brother, but I've got a certain Scots guard officer. Yeah, it's fine. Who the name Tumble Down might be familiar with people. He's just trying to, he's actually trying to enter the Zoom meeting because I'm going to chat to him in a bit. And I just want to reassure him that it's, it'll be with you in... Yeah, that's absolutely fine. Give my best to Robert. I will do. Great guy. Let me just whack this, whack this text off. There we go. Yeah, certainly in his bloody story. My God, that Tumble Down was incredible. Was it a series or just a one? It was a film we're calling Firth. Yeah, it was just God. It was, it was great. You know, yeah, it's, yeah, it'd be good if they actually put it back on the telly again, because there needs to be more, you know, I remember watching it when it actually came out, you know, in real time, and it is incredibly moving and also to get that kind of perspective. And then when I met Robert in real life, you know, it was better than calling Firth, you know. The most realistic bit in that film wasn't the Falkland stuff, although it was incredible. It was a bit where they had to wake him up because he was out with a bird from the night before. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And he nearly misses the bus. Yeah. And that's your true prophecy. Yes. So good effort, yes. So, yeah, I mean, so I was in Belfast, and quite often I hear people go, oh, I was only in Belfast, and I'm like, what are you on about? Well, sorry, I should explain. 1989 was one of the worst years on records for the Troubles, right? I know it wasn't the sort of 70s that we see from Bloody Sunday, but I mean, one day, one day, we had, I think it was 176 serious incidents. That was riots, buses being stolen and set alight, kidnappings, kneecapings, mortars going up, which they, that was quite regular. Snipes, gunmen, you know, they used to moor the police stations, didn't they? All this sort of stuff. And I say to anyone, when a guy behind you gets shot three times, like literally Jock is, he's tailing Charlie, he's five metres behind me, he got shot three times. And, bless him, got up and kept fighting, right? That's as close as to war as you want to come, especially when the ground's flicking up by your feet next, because the gunmen's determined to empty his magazine. So, it was a time, it was serious and we lost a chap. Yeah. Gilly rest in peace. He got shot dead after, God, we'd only been there about three weeks. And I remember it to this day, in fact, I had this chat with an SBS friend of mine yesterday and I said, do you remember how real it gets when they fool you in and the OC comes and debriefs you and says, right, fellas, when you get out this morning, I'm going to fucking smash it, right? Put this behind us. And it's like, fuck, I'm in the Royal Marines. I really am in, like, my mate, he's dead. And we're just going to go back to work like nothing's happened. It's serious old stuff, mate, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Serious old stuff. And on both sides, I mean, I was 19 and they gave me a fully automatic rifle. And I'm telling 40-year-old IRA men, like, what they can and can't do. You know, you empty your pockets. Do you not mean it was the thing, won't it, to give them as hard a time as possible? And some of them, if you caught them in an alleyway, they didn't come out of that alleyway very... Yeah, and I'm not saying don't get me wrong, friends at home, why I'm not proud of this behavior. It's just, it's conflict. Well, it's like a switch in the air, isn't it? And it gets activated and it's, you know... And then, yeah, it's all the training and it all takes over, doesn't it? But yeah, it's... I think what Northern Ireland was the familiarity of it, you know, it was so... Like being back home, you know, it was so near. The fact that, you know, I'm from the Northwest, a lot of Irish people there, it was quite confusing in terms of, you know, even going home and leave, you know... I mean, this has been before, you know, drugs, but the paranoia have just... have been, you know, a target or targeted. It was just a mention, you know, and it does, it takes its toll after a while. Yeah, and like you say, you know, just, you know, just turning one, you know, down one road or whatever and then bump, it just kicks off, you know, and you're caught in just this massive vacuum intensity. And, you know, yeah, I mean, I have trouble trying to sort of, you know, think coherently of what happened. It's like it sort of spins me out even to this day, do you know what I mean? And, yeah, it was very real. Yeah, and what was it where I heard from... It was a very good live training area, you know. And, you know, yeah. And it went on for so long as well. And the public opinion. I don't know, when I was at school and the friends that went to art school and I didn't go to art school, they didn't want to talk to me when they knew I was in the parachute regiment in Northern Ireland because they'd all been, you know, they were all part of the troops out kind of thing. That was, you know, so, yeah, it was a strange, strange time, a strange time. And, you know, I've done... I've been back to Belfast and I've done some, you know, the peace and reconciliation things. I mean, you know, I worked with Vice and we did a God Save Belfast, a documentary. Stuart, what would it be like if I was to go there tomorrow? Could I walk through the Ardoin on my own? I mean, I don't know if you could walk. What I mean by on my own is without a weapon, obviously. Oh, yeah, you could, yeah, you could. I mean, there's people who I... If I was to go and make those journeys, I'd say, look, you know, I'd make contact with such and such and say, can we go? And, you know, because it's still very twitchy curtain. It's a very closed and very, you know, it's a very intense community. Even to this day. When I was in the Ardoin in 2011 and this was with Vice and I mean, they had the water cannons and everything. And I was with all the nationalists from that side and there was the police in front. And it was just, it was, you know, I mean, these people know how to riot, you know, and there was rubber bullets going off, CS pellets and everything. And of course, when I came back to the UK, and I was then going to go off to Siberia to do a story on moonshine drug addiction that someone saw called me up and said, could you go to Tottenham for the riot? I said, well, I've had a mis-share of rioting in the Ardoin, you know, covering that. And these, you know, they really know how to riot, you know. No, I mean, even because when I was at university there, there's some people that would say, you know, just be careful, you know, and that usually came from kind of loyalist leaning kind of unionist kind of leaning kind of. Can I just explain for our friends at home in case they're wondering what, what I mean is, is back in the day, you folks, every, when you, when you serve in Northern Ireland, if you're in a hard and Republican area, like Ardoin, like West Belfast, North Belfast, you've always got a weapon on you and you're with a team and that team is with, you know, situated in what's called a multiple and you wouldn't go anywhere without all these armed people. I mean, you're on patrol, you're on military patrol. The, the, if, if I was to walk out the barracks in the civvies and try and replicate that journey, I'd be disappeared off the street and soon as someone clicked I was a serviceman. Oh yeah. A car would, a car would pull up, bundle you inside and you, you'd either, you'd either never be seen again or you'd turn up full of holes on the side of a road somewhere. And if you, like, Power of Edge, they'd take great glee in torturing you to death and just, you know, stringing up your body parts on some tree somewhere. Because it's a thing, I mean, when I've, I mean, they have, they are real provisionals. They had a lot more respect for the roamers than they did Power of Edge. Yeah, it was, but yeah, it would, they'd happily butch you to death. Yeah. And even when I was, I'd do my PhD and we went into some bar which, you know, actually was in the city centre but the guy who knew, apparently knew, you know, who shot one of our three power lads in the head mentioned the Martin McGartland 50 dead man walking book. He was a black guy, Tony Harrison. And then the other guy who came in was the brother of the teenage girl who survived the joy ride. And I thought, whoa, this is getting a bit close. This is sort of getting quite near the wire. You know, but you know, disregard my own history. Belfast was a great city, very compact, brilliant, but it's still, you know, people know each other and this, that and you know, you can't you can't stop the memories really. And I think this is the problem years later is not handled in a way. You can suffer from them memories themselves, you know, as Freud said in 18 such and such, you know, this man is not suffering from trauma, he's suffering from memories and this is the thing, you know, and what yeah, Stuart do you have any particularly, you know, bad memories from over there or was it the whole experience in itself? Yeah, there was particular flash points. You know, I remember being in broad in a you know, we were on QRF and then a can of beer was thrown and then all of a sudden we're sort of in some kind of ambush. You know, I mean, I'm on about hundreds pouring out this club and there was just four of us, you know, and the rocks coming down. I mean, these aren't bricks, these are literally like bloody cobblestones coming down and you know, one guy he was a fight and this that and then we ordered to open fire and just the mayhem of that, you know, and this is my first tour, you know, first sort of intense, you know, the four week kind of block things, you know, and then you know, there are instances where you know, you hear a call signs getting, you know, they're basically a gang sort of overwhelm them and you're there and you're like, you know, it's just literal gut to fight him, you know, and then when the joy rider thing happened, you know, out on the ground, you know, just taking every bit of abuse known to man and he thinking, well, wait a minute, the situation I had with that beer can was far more volatile, but I didn't open up and I remember having two section commanders screaming in my ears, going ready, aim, ready, aim, you know what I mean, and I was waiting for this word fire and I have to admit part of me was just please say fire because I wanted to open up, you know, and just let rip because the anger and frustration and you know, you've been spat on, you know, just it's it's horrendous, you know, and it's full on and and it's terrifying, it's terrifying you might be armed and stuff but you've got all these things that, well, you know, I can't, you know, I have to wait for the order, I have to wait for the order and and the order never came, you know, then I got a big cobblestone whack me in the helmets with the visors which you have over and you're like, you know, and yeah that's a particular thing that kind of regurgitates itself crowd, you know, the crowds of it all, you know, and just the kind of the heat and the anger and just the sort of, yeah, like I say, the suffocating feeling of the extreme hatred and then, and then yeah, the joy of the thing and he's thinking fucking hell, you know you didn't have to do that but it happened and, you know, there was I wasn't there, actually on the ground I know there was one of my friends who I was in junior power with, he was actually in that section and, you know, I mean yeah, I mean, it's just how things get out of hand very, very, very, very quickly and just how volatile it is and like you say it's not like like I say is, you know, you've got intensive violence and then the next day no one says anything it's just like back to normal. I remember after that incident with the beer can of having to go back the next day to the same area and I couldn't even walk properly, you know, I was and I can remember bits of it because I wrote a letter to a friend and that friend gave me that letter back and I was just like, you know I was quite emotional to read the words of an 18 year old you know, teenager you know, what was going on and at the end he says you know, I have to go back into Twinbrook with my swollen knee but it's okay because I'm a paratrooper haha, do you know what I mean it's like switch on switch off you know and just crack on, just try and get home in one piece you know, try and get home on leave you know, if no one no one's dead then that's the main thing isn't it yes yes Stuart listen it's been absolutely wonderful chatting to you brother I wish we could chat longer but as yeah I understand it's been a pleasure Chris yeah, Robert's on in a moment and because we started a bit late I don't been a while trying to organise it with him but yeah, but listen I feel like we're only halfway through our chat so let's do a part two great because I'd like to hear about your work with Veterans for Peace we've had Spike on the podcast yeah, I know Spike yeah, that was great it's an A I tell you what it's mad out that triggers people you know, just mentioning Veterans for Peace that you start getting fucking death threats from Veterans it's like what did you, yeah I read Joe Gleintern's Veteran Hud book it was okay but yeah I mean I've not really been that too involved with Veterans for Peace to be honest I've just cracked on one more PhD and I don't I know what you're saying but I don't want to kind of alienate although I had like I say what I've mentioned about the a lot of animosity and stuff I'm a forgiving person and yeah, some people don't quite get that but I remember giving a presentation at one of the AGM's and I just thought I'll do this again I just had the wrath of female Veterans again with social media they think they can get on the attack and it just gets really kind of tedious but now I wish them all well in all areas I mean it's a bit like when the Gus Hales is on the hunger strike all of a sudden you had these kind of you know Jim Davidson turn up Tommy Robertson turn off in the English Defence League and I'm thinking oh yeah he's had so many hits I don't know some of these things don't sit quite right and then these certain certain groups sort of start to take over the Veteran and it can become quite toxic really but I think if anyone knows about Peace it's probably people that have served in frontline situations because they know the madness of war and conflict what it does and it has to be some way of learning from that but like you say Ukraine going on it's I think the thing for me really what really calls me serious moral injury was the shoddy withdrawal from Afghanistan I just when people go oh stiff off a lip oh job well done no it wasn't quite that job well done making way for the Chinese to come in and do that's all that was about smash the place up make a bad name for ourselves let the Chinese come in shake hands exploit the lithium mines probably some if you're familiar with the Belt and Road initiative this super it's kind of super highway from China to Europe that's being built as we speak it's never about as well there's always more to it the geopolitical yes it is and we've just got to wise people don't get involved don't take sides peace come first peace love kindness empathy you know to create the world you want for your children for crying out loud and you're not going to do it by believing what you see on the bloody mainstream news because it's all owned by the people that that well own everything but like I say is chat for another day massive thank you mate can you just stay on the light and I'll thank you quickly properly afterwards but to our friends at home I hope you've enjoyed that as much as I have bit of a trip down the memory lane although I never had a camera that good I do remember that camera it was really really smart but if you could like and subscribe friends that would be really kind much love to you and we'll see you soon take care thanks Chris welcome mate