 Good evening, everyone. It's my pleasure to welcome you to the 2020 Wilson Dialogue. We are joined tonight here by Nambri Nanawal Elder, Paul House, who will graciously welcome us to his country. Paul? We're a good worry, Brian. Thank you, Brian. Baladu Yaba, Nyambri Wogaloo, or Guredri Nyian. I'm speaking Nyambri Wogaloo or Guredri language. Boral Marambang, Yelin Galangbu, Giba Bangal, Woga Bangal, Migaibu, Deir Anil Bang, Maranya. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, young women, young men, distinguished guests, the Honourable Mr Kevin Rudd, Vice Chancellor Brian Smith, and then Uncle Bruce Pasco, Nyari and Jamali Nyambri, Gamal, Wogaloo, Wollablow, Nunuwa, Nagarraga, Wuradri, Mujigang, Nyanyang, Mujian. In my respects to Nyambri Gamal, Wogaloo, Wollablow, Nunuwa, Nagarraga, Wuradri, Eldest, Past and Present. Nyari and Jamarrago, Mujigang, Nunuwanji, Gugu, Nini, Yiridu, my respects to all Elders from other nations here tonight. Nyambri Nunuwa, Maranya, Gurbari, Niniwaga, Nurambang, Dara. Nyambri Nunuwa, people, welcome you all to country. Nyambri Wogaloo, Nunuwa, Maranya, Nurambang, Dara. Yinja Mara, Nado, Boyan, Yiyang. Respecting Nyambri Wogaloo, Nunuwa, Country, Language, and Law. Yinja Mara. Respect, Honour, Go, Slay, Take Responsibility. Mamawara Naminyagu, Wujigvinyagu, Wuradaragu, Winninggala, Gubalagu. Looking to see, listening to hear, and learning to understand. Yinja Mara, Mugagiri, Biddinga, Bogongu, Dirinda. Respect can be found in the journey of the Bogong moths in the mountains. Yinja Mara, Bala, Bidda, Dara, Bina, Bidda, Wura, Win, Nyambri, Nunuwa, Dara. Respect is in the rivers, quietly moving through Nyambri, Nunuwa, Country. Yinja Mara, Bala, Wala, Munga, Dara, Mudan, Mudan, Dara, Bunga, Yilgurangam, Bidda. Respect is in the grinding stones and the carved trees, made long ago, Nyambri, Wala, Wala, Bala, our Country. Mudanwagiri, Yinja Mara, Mudan, Mudan, Wudan, Bidda, Dara. Living in Yinja Mara, Respect for Way of Life, Cares for Country. Yinja Mara, Wudan, Bidda, Mara, Mdongu, Bogongu, Dara. Respect is taking Responsibility for the now, the past, the present, and the future. This Welcome to Country is made in the spirit of peace and a desire for harmony for all peoples of the modern ACT surrounds. And with this Welcome to Country, our main aim is local custodians to establish an atmosphere of mutual respect through the acknowledgement of our ancestors and the recognition of our rights to declare our special place in the pre and post contact of the region. We have cared for Mother Earth since the dawn of time and evidence of our occupation can be seen everywhere throughout the land. Our sovereignty, our occupation, our signature is in the land not just our DNA and taking care of country is important to us. We continue to respect our obligations to protect and conserve our culture and heritage and care for our ancestral lands and waters. Our ancestral places include Yambri, Wirawa, Amungula and Amiji Gajambi, Jinninderaguri Yaro, Tidbidinbilla, Jalagang Yuri Yara, all our billers, the rivers, the gubergandar, gubergandar, gubergandar, gubergandar, gubergandar, gubergandar, gubergandar, Murangidji rivers and our key totems are the umbe, yukambar, yukambar, the crow and the moly and the eagle. The land, the plants, the animals, the rivers, the mountains, it's all connected, not just environmentally, but also spiritually. We must remember the concrete and the steel of our cities and towns as a rich, powerful 70,000 year history, First Nation history, which is now shared history that belongs to all of us. In conclusion, I'd like to talk about the law of the land. The law of the land talks about giving respect and honour to all people in all parts of the country, giving honour, being respectful, being polite, being gentle and patient with all, and people will respect you, respect everything living and growing, hold fast to each other and empower each other. Respect shapes us and lifts up the people. On behalf of our elders and our families, in the spirit of reconciliation, I say, Gura Bari, welcome and more of Gowuri. Thank you. Thank you, Paul, and thank you for that wonderful welcome to country. I too would like to acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose traditional lands and narrow ways we meet pay my respects to the elders past and present. I'm here on the edge of Amangula Creek, part of the Nalulambri territory. Tonight, we are going to focus on the very timely issue of addressing climate change beyond the COVID-19 pandemic. COVID-19 has changed the way we live and operate in our everyday lives. We have seen state, national and international governments mobilise to prevent the spread of the virus and work towards a vaccine. Comparatively, an Australia climate change has been politicised and government action stagnant. As a defining issue of our time, the consequences of an action will impact us all. Climate change is arguably the largest crisis humanity faces. As Australia's national university, we are uniquely placed to contribute to public policy and have a critical responsibility to address challenges facing Australia and outside the global pandemic. A&U and the Sir Roland Wilson Foundation are tackling these challenges through our high-quality research, leadership capability and through our strong leaks with the government. Earlier this year, we became the first major global university in the first in Australia to commit to reaching below zero greenhouse gas emissions. This initiative is spearheaded by our Climate Change Institute and although it is ambitious, now more than ever, it is absolutely crucial. And I'm pleased we can support the foundation and its scholars who are future leaders in the Australian Public Service to have these important discussions and embed research and evidence into the development of public policy. Our panel this evening will discuss the potential lessons we can take from COVID-19 and how we can then apply them to the way in which we dress climate change. Now I would like to introduce our keynote guest speaker for this evening, the Honorable Kevin Rudd. Thank you for joining us tonight, Kevin. It is indeed a pleasure to welcome you back to our campus, albeit virtually. I'd also like to thank our other panelists who will be joining us for a discussion later, dark emu author and academic Bruce Pascoe and CEO of Climate Works Australia Anna Scarba. Kevin is of course an A&U alumnus having completed his bachelor's degree in Asian Studies in 1981 and was awarded an honorary doctorate here in 2016. Kevin was the 26th Prime Minister of Australia serving as Prime Minister from December 2007 until June 2010 and again then from June until September 2013. While in office Kevin set in motion major reforms and domestic policy areas including environment, health, education, industrial relations, social security and infrastructure. The Rudd government first act included signing the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change, which was a significant step forward in Australia's effort to fight climate change domestically and within the international community. He also represented Australia at the Copenhagen Climate Change Summit, committing states to limit temperature increases to two degrees. He led Australia's response to the global financial crisis, reviewed by the International Monetary Fund as the most effective stimulus strategy of all major economies. In 2008 Kevin delivered the National Apology to the Stolen Generations in Australia and committed to closing the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. Since leaving office Kevin has had numerous senior roles for international organizations and academic institution. He is the President of the Asia Society Policy Institute in New York, a senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School and a distinguished fellow at Chatham House in London. Kevin continues to be a passionate environmentalist and a firm believer that climate change poses a real and present threat to humanity and our future. It is great to have you with us here tonight and I'm looking forward to your insights. Over to you Kevin. Thank you very much Brian and greetings to everyone at the Australian National University and thank you very much Paul for the welcome to country and I honour the first Australians on whose lands we meet and his cultures we celebrate as the oldest continuing cultures in human history. We all know that this corona crisis has generated the biggest economic and social crisis Australia has faced since the war and probably since the Great Depression. Responding to international crises through our own national means is a critical challenge for effective Australian public policy. Responding to international economic crisis acting early and effectively as soon as the evidence presents itself is critical. I believe we did that during the global financial crisis enabling Australia to avoid the recession which all other advanced economies in the world suffered. Acting early and effectively is also critical for national pandemic management. We did that in 2009 when we faced the H1N9 virus and we acted appropriately we also managed to avoid significant impact on the economy and acting early and effectively on the existential crisis which climate change represents is also critical for our nation's future. Again in our period in office we sought to do that we sought to do that by ensuring that Australia was part of the international legal instruments underpinning global climate change action, the Kyoto Protocol at the time. We sought to do that by being active leaders in global climate change action through the Copenhagen Conference in 2009. We sought to do that through our national action and bringing in a underlaw a mandatory renewable energy target. Australian renewable energies back then represented only 4% of total energy supply. They now represent 21% of national energy supply because we made legislation count and we sought to introduce a price on carbon only to see our carbon pollution reduction scheme voted down twice in the Senate through an unseemly collaboration between the Liberal Party and the Green Party. These actions count but the generic principle of all these actions whether it's on the economy whether it's on pandemic management or climate change management is to act on the basis of the evidence when it presents itself to you to act effectively and early deploying the full range of weapons available to you and the past policy arsenal of government. It's easy to forget that 2020 began with the great Australian Inferno and when the statisticians look back they will see that these fires compounded and already faltering Australian economic growth rate. Those bushfires also choked our cities shifted the psychology of the nation and brought home two stark realities first just how vulnerable we all are to climate change and second just how far behind the rest of the world Australia now is in responding to climate change. For a moment we realised how dangerous it was to have become what I've described in earlier writings as the complacent country no longer Donald Horn's lucky country instead the complacent country complacent about the warnings we've received complacent about the deployment of the actions which have been necessary particularly in the period since the international community agreed on a common course at Paris in 2015. Besides the United States under Trump and Brazil under Bolsonaro we in Australia are the only major economy that does not take the need for action on climate change seriously nor do we recognise the economic opportunities that will come with that action. I would argue that this is bad company to keep Trump and Bolsonaro. This ultimately is not a question of ideology. Boris Johnson's conservative government in the United Kingdom is in fact one of the shining lights for climate change action around the world in the midst of this crisis the most cold-appended economies and right-wing governments in Europe have backed a European Green New Deal as a massive pillar of their continent's recovery. Even China has now announced that they will achieve climate neutrality by 2060. That means being net carbon neutral. Only Australia and the United States among the developed economies refuse to embrace carbon neutrality as their mid-century target. Why is that important? Because it reflects the underpinning science of keeping temperature increases within 1.5 degrees centigrade by centuries end and therefore building back in terms of the quantum of greenhouse gas emissions which need to be taken out of the atmosphere that would otherwise be there and therefore creating a trajectory towards those targets by having an appropriate policy setting the mid-century 2050 and in the near-term by 2030 as required under the Paris Agreement. That's why having these mid-century and near-term targets is so fundamentally important they determine the actions we take now. But here in Australia instead of using the summer fires and the coronavirus as an opportunity to accelerate the necessary shift to a zero emissions global economy Australia has chosen to use it as an excuse to delay climate change action even further. All the while getting in a tongue twist about our refusal to back a long-term target to reach net zero emissions by 2050. This is despite the fact that almost uniquely industry, business and the unions alike as well as every state and territory government in our nation Australia back net zero by 2050 only the Commonwealth government has declined. This failure puts both our people and economy at greater risk and I fear that seeking to untangle our carbon intensive economy much later than the rest of the world could in fact be what causes the next recession in Australia as the global economy increasingly walks away from fossil fuel dependency. Australia cannot afford to let this crisis go to waste. This is genuinely a nation-building opportunity if ever there was one including to embrace a genuinely green recovery. This does not mean I think the government will necessarily have a Damascus road experience perhaps there beyond that but it does mean the government needs to be held to account for refusing to paint an economic picture for our recovery which has climate action at the heart of it. For my part here is what the government's green economic recovery should look like. Number one we need large-scale investment in the renewable energy industry including the position to position Australia as a clean energy superpower. The hard truth is that we can create new jobs create new industries and new wealth supplying clean energy at home and clean energy technology abroad. This should include investments to accelerate the development of large-scale energy infrastructure projects such as the green hydrogen project being explored in the Pilbara in the west. It also includes R&D for other emerging clean energy technologies. Instead we become obsessed with the possibility of a gas-led recovery replete with the idea of building pipelines from east to west. That is the modern-day equivalent of dusting off a defence plan to buy more horses and bayonets because they worked in the past. It ignores the fact that gas should be a transition fuel to renewables. Investing in this without also backing in renewables is only a recipe for even higher emissions production over time. It also means that we can more than certainly kiss goodbye to any hope of meeting the targets we set for ourselves under the Paris Agreement. Second, we need to fundamentally rewire our national electricity system as Anthony Albanese outlined recently in his budget reply. Albanese was right when he said our national electricity system was designed for a different century, let alone today when one in four households already has solar panels in some states a huge renewable energy infrastructure. Not only would this inject 40 billion dollars alone into our economy it would also create new jobs especially in regional Australia and it would make our entire electricity system and therefore our economy more stable. Third, we do need to recognize electricity prices are too high in this country and now more than ever this needs to change as a wave of inequality and unemployment sweeps our country as the coronavirus induced recession continues. That is why as we did a decade ago in the global financial crisis we need to heed Ken Henry's advice and go hard, go early and go households in order to accelerate this shift especially for those who will benefit from it most. Solar panels should become a mandatory part of the national building code for all new structures including to spread the economic benefit from the government's own mooted construction boom. Incentives should also be provided for the retrofitting of the remaining three quarters of the existing national housing stock and the government should consider subsidizing the cost of the installations for social housing to immediately put money in the pockets of our country's most vulnerable by wiping out huge parts of their electricity bills. We also have the benefit of knowing that these kinds of measures work in Australia. For example, my government's energy efficient homes package saw insulation installed in 1.2 million homes or 20% of our entire national housing stock. Yes, there are problems with the program. There are four tragic deaths out of a total of 16,000 people employed in this program and they were due to a failure on the part of four subcontractors failing to properly apply workplace and safety procedures and standards. But as the Royal Commission itself found at the time, the number of fires caused by ceiling insulation was in fact much less than the pre-programmed industry standard across our nation. But the important point to reflect on is this, despite what the Murdoch media may write about such programs, is that this measure alone, the energy efficient homes program, has been estimated to have saved approximately 20,000 gigawatt hours of electricity or roughly 19.5 million tons of CO2 equivalent through to today. That is a 10% drop in our emissions in real terms. That is through energy efficiency measures. Solar panels on the energy supply front, proper insulation on the energy efficiency front are simple examples of what can be done in both dimensions of climate change action. Finally, we need to fundamentally overhaul our regulatory framework to keep pace with this economic shift. Every financial crisis including the GFC has resulted in major and lasting changes to the national regulatory environment. The opportunity here is to finally bring corporate and prudential regulation in line with the risks posed by climate change. I particularly want to commend the work of the Centre for Policy Development and Climate Works Australia among others for their efforts on the Climate and Recovery Initiative. Anyone who doesn't think the climate change is already impacting industry needs their head rate. Speak to anyone of the world's major insurance companies and look carefully at the impact already on insurance premiums, business, business loss, business replacement as well as insurance premiums against natural disasters more generally. It's important that many of the statutory institutions that my government established including the climate change authority are urgently re-established to bring back dispassionate advice to governments on our level of climate action and to identify areas for how this can be continued to scale up in the future. To conclude, the biggest barrier to all of this is obviously political leadership. Prime Minister Morrison for reasons best known to himself has chosen not to lead on climate change action and instead simply to evade. Leadership is critical. Leadership costs but leadership is essential. We need to remember the climate change action at its heart is a massive jobs and wealth creation plan that is also entirely in keeping with this current government's priorities to deliver affordable and reliable energy. And to put it bluntly, it's a question as to whether these factors are more important during a global recession than a small minority that will continue to cling to fossil fuels no matter what. Almost as a matter of deep religion. Indeed, as groups like Beyond Zero Emissions have shown a large-scale renewables plan for Australia would create over 100,000 jobs in the next two years alone that otherwise would not exist. Over 70% of which would be in regional Australia and within three years it would increase real wages by 1% nationally at a time when real wages are currently lower than they were a decade ago. This vision would make Australia safer, stronger, fairer and more prosperous and more sustainable. We are the custodians of the Great Barrier Reef. We are the custodians of the Murray Darling Basin. We're the custodians of this vast dry land. It's our responsibility to act. No longer would we need to be the international pariah holding up global agreements on the world stage or staring down the barrel of carbon tariffs from the European Union or a future Democrat administration in Washington through Australia's continued failure to act. Australia has a choice in this crisis. We either have courage, courage of leadership, courage of conviction enough to see a greater vision for our country anchored in sustainability or we allow our government to cower on the face of the Murdoch media climate change denialists who have been leading the charge against climate change action in this country for more than a decade. Climate change remains the greatest moral challenge of our generation as because it requires us to think in intergenerational terms. The choice should not be that hard. It's a time for a genuinely green recovery to be at the heart of our national economic vision for this country one that matches the moment and one that inspires the nation. I thank you for your time. Thank you so much the Honourable Kevin Rudd for those remarks. So great to have you on board here. I just wanted to check that we're getting into this discussion now. I hope that I haven't jumped into early but everyone thanks for tuning in. My name is Janice Peterson. I'm from SBS World News but I've taken the night off. Usually I'd be in the studio at SBS getting ready to read World News but I'm delighted to be hosting the 2020 Wilson Dialogue this evening and participating in a Zoom call. I actually want to be involved in. It's my great pleasure to be here. So thank you once again to the Honourable Kevin Rudd, former Prime Minister Kevin. Thank you so much for that wonderful keynote address. We heard there about the importance of responding early and effectively to global crises and it was really fascinating to hear some of the frustrations and the challenges that you faced trying to make good on some of those commitments to climate change while in office. And also where you think Australia sits at the moment on the world stage when it comes to things like carbon targets and more importantly what you believe what needs to be done now. Now to our audience Kevin has kindly agreed to stay on to talk more about those topics but at this point I'd like to introduce our esteemed panel who'll be joining Kevin for further discussion for this 2020 Wilson Dialogue addressing climate change beyond COVID-19 pandemic. We have Anna Scarback CEO of Climate Works Australia co-founded by Maya Foundation and Monash University and has been the head of the Foundation since it was created back in 2009 really leading the push for low emission economies and is also the Director of Impact Investment Group the Green Building Council of Australia and of the Centre for New Technologies. She's been a member of the Blueprint Institute's Strategic Advisory Council the Graton Institute's energy program and a whole lot more. She was also a founding Director of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation from 2012 to 2017. We're also delighted today to have Professor Bruce Pascoe join us. Bruce of course is a writer and editor and an anthologist. He's best known of course for his work Dark Emu which examines and reexamines colonial accounts of Aboriginal people in Australia and also gives evidence of pre-colonial agriculture, engineering and building construction by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Bruce has pretty much won every award. He's received the New South Wales Premier's Book of the Year Award in 2016 for Dark Emu in 2018. Bruce was awarded the Australia Council Award for Lifetime Achievement in Literature. He's also a professor at the Jambana Institute for Indigenous Education and Research at UTS and we're so fortunate aren't we to have people of this calibre join us for this esteemed panel but we love democracy here. We appreciate that a lot of you watching tonight also have very pertinent points to make so we'd love you to get involved. It's pretty simple. During the panel discussion you will all have the abilities to submit questions using the Q&A function so please seek that out. Submit your questions during the forum and it means that I'll get to put some of those questions to our panel so please make the most of that opportunity and I can see everyone's on board I hopefully Anna you're welcome to join in now Anna I think I can't see you at the moment but hopefully I'll get to see you. Hello I'm here yes wonderful wonderful Kevin as you mentioned their large-scale policy action on climate change can be very challenging can't it so how do you turn that back and forth debate into action with long-term impact when you you're facing the realities of tough conditions in parliament how are we going to see action how are we going to see action on that there are two impediments to climate change action in Australia one is a liberal national party who have concluded that opposition to climate change constitutes good politics because in out of suburban Australia and regional Australia they equate action on climate change with damage to industry and losses to employment so they have concluded that that is good politics even if any rational person would conclude it's horrendous policy for Australia so what do you do about that it means that a laser sharp focus has to be brought to bear on the government of Australia the political party of represents in terms of its failure to deal with Australia's long-term future and the fact that their strategy is ultimately destructive of jobs and destructive of Australian living standards the second challenge is this we must launch collectively a national fuselage against the Murdoch media and the reason is the Murdoch media have been the echo chamber of climate change denialism for the best part of the decade and they have made respectable the political approach which the liberal national party have taken to climate change over that period of time enabling them to turn it into quote a political winner to be climate change denialists rather than what should be the case as far as any normal public policy prescription for the country would be look around the world these debates are not really had anywhere in Europe there's no Murdoch media in Europe outside of Britain and there it is not a dominant player they're not debates which are held in Canada it is only a massively partisan issue in Australia and the United States where the Murdoch media is so dominant in both countries so you ask me what needs to be done the policy script for Australia is clear it's about renewables it's about a carbon price it's about energy efficiency and it's about global leadership and global action what's stopping it liberal national party and the Murdoch party they're the two which have to be moved out of the road otherwise Australia will not realise its national potential as a centre for renewable and green energy in the future it is difficult am I sorry let me just check I'm not on mute it is difficult though isn't it Mr Rudd to get action on climate change get that momentum happening when really there's been one story this year and that's been COVID-19 how do we get people interested again and more engaged in this particularly given the tough economic conditions we're facing at the moment it's really dropped off the agenda well you come from an industry which decides what's on the agenda and what's not it's called a news media that's not my industry that's yours so whether it's SPS or whether it's the ABC whether it's the Fairfax media you decide A whether a story is reported or not you decide the slanting of the reporting that is what the headline story is and how it's presented and thirdly on the keen media narrative which is run by the Murdoch media which is climate change action destroys jobs and economic security as opposed to the counter-narrative which happens to be the truth the climate change action builds jobs and creates new employment opportunities right across the country and is good for the climate good for the environment and good for the economy so it is a question not of as it were the effectiveness of political advocacy the Australian Labor Party has had a clear and consistent position on this for a decade the challenge is to mobilize the nation to including the media of the nation against the two political operatives standing in the road of this policy prescription for our nation's future one's the Murdoch Party the second's Liberal National Party and you the rest of the media frankly have a responsibility in my judgment to again place this as center state irrespective of what's happening in terms of coronavirus land all right fair cop Mr Runt thank you I'll definitely keep it on board and I'd like to bring you into the conversation now COVID of course has forced a lot of us to work from home fewer cars on the road planes being used of course the downturn in the aviation sector manufacturing heavy industries slowed emissions dropped for a moment there does that have a lasting impact though no it's temporary when restrictions are lifted and activity resumes the existing machines engines vehicles and technology will all turn back on the lockdown has felt really long to us but it's actually only a few months and most importantly that time has not been spent replacing and upgrading the technology we use to instead install versions which don't create emissions when we use it the only way to a safe climate is to remove the excess emissions from our economy and atmosphere every year we produce more than what the earth can absorb and that's what's been going on for the last century so bringing it back into balance or achieving net zero emissions is the central goal of the Paris agreement and of the IPCC science and evidence carbon neutral or net zero and we've got three decades left based on the current rates of warming we can do it and it's a technological solution it's about replacing the equipment and technology that we already use to do so with versions that don't produce emissions so it actually can be done without as much change to the way we live and work as what COVID has produced we've seen massive changes in the way we live and work and our research over the last decade has shown that we can indeed achieve a net zero emissions economy without this sort of change to the way we live and work we can still live in homes and buildings like the ones we live in we can drive in cars even ships and planes are looking at how they can decarbonise industry can still prosper and grow and so we can make things and mine things and have zero emissions mining in Australia as well provided the technology that we use is upgraded to use the zero emissions versions of that technology so it requires investment and it requires thousands of transactions of upgrading that equipment whether it's small equipment in homes and buildings or large equipment in mines and obviously in electricity generation and replacing the old fleet with newer versions so it's that activity it's actually requires a proactive activity to eliminate the emissions from the economy rather than what we've seen during COVID restrictions which is the omission of activity we need the proactive investment in new technology to replace the old it can be done to allow life largely as we know it or as we knew it if you like pre-COVID and that's what's often overlooked we talk about the four pillars of decarbonisation use three of them relate to energy use using energy much more smartly we can halve the amount of energy that are building users for example with technology that's already invented to date we don't yet have a market of consumers and suppliers that enable that technology to be installed in a widespread way the second pillar is of course renewable energy so zero emissions electricity which we know how to do it's happening but not fast enough yet and the third pillar is then you switch your fuels to the zero emissions version so you switch to electricity wherever you can so we can electrify a lot of passenger transport we can electrify a lot of industry we can electrify the homes you know the energy that our homes use you can't electrify everything there are liquid fuels and gas that's still used for long-distance transport so we're now looking at what are the zero emissions versions of that hydrogen produced with renewable energy can be a major substitute for a lot of the existing use of fossil fuel that isn't replaced by electricity and that can power long-form transport and the last the hardest part aviation will need biofuels or sin fuels although there are trials even of hydrogen fuel cell planes so it can be done but it requires these steps these three energy steps and the fourth being sequestration sequester the rest that's using nature in particular but also some technology industrial carbon capture and storage for any of the last residual emissions for some industrial processes that we aren't able to substitute in those other ways although every year we're seeing new developments on that so I thought I'd just outline why until those things happen we're not going to achieve zero emissions it's not just about pressing pause it's about actively investing in the four pillars but we can do all of that while still living flying, driving, making, manufacturing just as we are provided we're actively upgrading that technology Thanks so much Anna I saw you nodding your head there Bruce at times I'd love to get your take on things and we will can I just say to our audience we will definitely I'll be asking some of your questions in a moment but I just want to get Bruce's thoughts for a moment First Nations people of course have been managing the land for millennia so Bruce how do you think improved engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities might change the way we approach something as huge as climate change I think to look at a civilisation operated in this country for 120,000 years successfully and sustainably there are lessons to be learnt and Australia should be clamouring to learn those they are not the only lessons but they are certainly things that are worth knowing and the reliance of Aboriginal people on perennial crops be they tubers or grains is a really large part of how the rivers and atmosphere were looked after by Aboriginal people when Australians see the fish kills on the Murray Darling rivers when they see that giant dust storm that I drove through in November last year that descended upon Sydney and ended up in the Alps of New Zealand that's our soil that's Australian capital that we're sending over to New Zealand by bad farming it's the wrong crop for the wrong country and if we were to reduce the amount of plowing that was done in this country by growing perennial grasses and cropping the same and grazing the same growing more Australian tubers which are perennial plants and can be harvested and remaining the ground using the old Aboriginal techniques then we go a long way to sequestering carbon and meeting our responsibilities to the world not just to the world but to the other earth herself and these are important things to Aboriginal people and these are lessons that we are begging to share with Australians but underpin all of that of course is the cooperation and the organisation required to do these things if you control burn across an area the size of two states you have to do it in conjunction with your neighbours perhaps neighbours you don't even share a language with and to do that the power of government required the faith in each other required is enormous and it saddens me that when Australians think about their history they don't think about government they don't think that Aboriginal people governed each other the society probably began here if we look at the recent archaeology of old towns it appears they exceed the first town which I'm told is in Turkey but it doesn't really matter who's first who's second it matters who's still here and how they treated the earth during that time and that kind of government that kind of leadership that was adopted time and time and time again by each generation not without modification but re-adopted that faith in the earth that absolute determination not to damage mother earth was driven by philosophy was driven by spirituality and was driven by incredible states people both men and women and I think this is a treasure for Australia you know we're talking about the grains and tubers that I talk about in dark emu everyone's very excited by that and we need to be and we need to do more research in this area but we need to look at how the first society in the world was governed and how it remained as one culture for over a hundred thousand years it doesn't matter whether you believe a hundred thousand years you know the archaeologists at Warrnambool do let's say it's 80,000 years when I went to school it was 5,000 years but whatever it is it's an incredible length of government when most civilizations in the world were done and dusted in 1,000 so what went right in Australia was it just isolation or was there a philosophical strength here from which we can learn today and I believe that's the case that law that the drove that ancient government is still alive today and is being practiced today and will be practiced this weekend in all sorts of ways and I'm gladdened that I can actually witness it because until you see it you don't understand the generosity of it the generosity towards women because in my culture everything begins and ends with the turn through the mother we come through the mother we owe our complete debt to the mother and that mother of course is not just our physical mother but Mother Earth a government like that looks a lot like New Zealand thank you so much Bruce wonderful to hear from you Kevin we've got a question here from someone in our audience Cheryl Lyons thank you so much for joining the conversation Cheryl Lyons wants to know how important do you think the US election outcome will be to the success of the Paris Agreement fundamental Trump decided to leave the Paris Accord Biden has committed to rejoin it probably his first day in office why is that really important it's not a question of high symbolism it's a question of two things one with the Paris Agreement you buy on to and buy into an arrangement which has at its core the environmental science and the environmental science says that if we allow a temperature increase beyond 1.5 degrees centigrade in this 21st century we will experience irreparable climate dysfunction for the biosphere all of us therefore that's entrenched in the Paris Agreement secondly what flows from that is the mathematics of how much further greenhouse gas emissions the atmosphere can absorb for the duration of this century in order to keep temperatures increases within that margin and then thirdly it therefore outlines a framework of so-called nationally determined commitments or NDCs for each and every nation state so for America the second largest emitter in the world not to be in that arrangement is frankly a global scandal point one in terms of the ethical argument but it's also in a material argument fundamentally damaging for the rest of us and the further point is this if America is not within that agreement or record it lessens the pressure on the Chinese the single largest emitters on the planet to take their responsibilities globally seriously China is a contribution of global greenhouse gas emissions will peak somewhere about 25 28 percent of total emissions and if they are outside the Paris Agreement because the Americans choose to abandon it forever then that spells absolute mayhem for the rest of us the Chinese have decided to operate within that agreement so far that we have to cast a skeptical eye to what they're doing offshore with the intensity of coal-fired power station investment in the Belt and Road Initiative countries but let me tell you would be a damn side worse if they were completely outside the regime established by the Paris Agreement finally China is about to release its 14 five-year plan to cover the period 2021 to 2025 it will again is based on the mathematics of how do we stay within 1.5 to 2 degrees centigrade increase this century and its own set of national arrangements flow from that so if the Americans walk away from Paris forever and cause the Chinese to conclude that they are Robertson Crusoe by remaining there as the world's largest emitter then God save the rest of us that's why this presidential election is crucial for any of us who take climate change policy and politics seriously thank you very much Kevin Bruce I think we've got one audience question here for you from Ian coming thank you Ian for getting involved Ian asks how do you bring the benefits of the indigenous culture back into the current national political conduct are those who have come across the sea to become more like those who have been here for a hundred k years how do we do that how do we achieve that we teach our children about the incredible history that this country has experienced the full history because Aboriginal history is Australian history teach them that history but also teach them the love of the earth and their responsibility towards it I've got four grandchildren so I can't afford to be pessimistic there are good reasons to be extremely worried but we have to have hope we mustn't allow ourselves to become mobilised with the fear of total destruction there are things we can do and we have to encourage our children to do those things in our stead have to encourage our neighbours to take it seriously talk to those who we know will not agree with us but we can soften their demeanour a fraction and we'll have changed things greatly it's about conversations and it's about respect Paul House you know was spot on that speech from none of our language mentioned respect about 13 times that's what it's all about respecting each other not disrespect and Kevin has mentioned an election overseas really is about respect for people on the earth as against disrespect but I have faith in Australia people tell me I'm foolish for doing so but I have faith in Australians look at how we have responded to the pandemic compared to many other countries and I think Australian states have been pretty well governed in this regard but it also relied on the goodwill of the people and I'm throwing my hat in the ring for the goodwill of Australians to realise that we can do things productively and we can still love our country and once again as Kevin said there are and Anna said the same there are jobs in looking after planet earth there is wealth in looking after planet earth certainly survival Thanks so much Bruce Anna I think I might be able to direct this one at you someone from the audience named Kevin wants to know and this has been a question that keeps coming up from our audience is basically what's an alternative to coal how can the coal industry be replaced what are the viable alternatives because it is of course such a huge contributor to our economy under climate change at the moment there are many alternatives so Australia is blessed with world class on renewable electricity and sorry Anna your somehow your audio has gone a little bit funny can you maybe unmute and unmute and let's see if that helps us it's a little bit fuzzy I'm not sure whether to press on or not because I'm very keen to hear your response there about alternative so maybe just keep it pithy and we'll we'll crack on no I think Anna is actually frozen there Oh Janice Yes Don't be interested Anna is working on that audio I had solar panel people at the farm today installing the most modern solar panels twice as efficient as the ones they replaced which were old the batteries that are now installed nearly three times as efficient as the original ones I had admittedly this is an old system but this is how the future will go and a really good example of how this is being led by Australians not by governments is that I used to live in front of a house that was owned by one of the richest men in Victoria and he installed solar panels he wasn't trying to defy his government he was trying to accept the sun and I think it's a really good example that Australians have understood about solar power for a very long time and there are some governments who have resisted the very very obvious that Australia is a sunny country Thanks so much Bruce did you quickly want to jump in Anna? Oh it keeps freezing Anna I'm so sorry but you've just frozen again unfortunately Kevin Rudd we've got a question here from Michael Cachill he's talking about China's I mean this was a massive massive story this year that I think got unfortunately swamped by COVID should we believe China's commitment to go carbon neutral in 2060 and what role can Australia play in that and can you just unmute please? I intend to live to 100 years old so I'll be around to tell you so and I'm just looking for some ancient indigenous wisdom Bruce that will enable me to last that long so we'll talk afterwards my friend The Johnny system is obviously a radically different system to this country my first point is this China has decided to act on climate change and to bring down its greenhouse gas emissions for one core reason it is a science-based political culture which has concluded that climate change produced by the human use of carbon at scale is bringing about irreparable social environmental damage in their country that's the core reason and there's a scientific consensus on this within China which was achieved probably about 2007-2008 it worked its way through the political process by about the just after Copenhagen at the end of 2009 probably around about 2010 and it found its way into China's central planning documents round about 2015 in the 13th five-year plan that's kind of the sequence of it science, politics, policy and we're about to go into the 14th five-year plan which will be released fairly soon which will govern China between 2021 and 2025 and what I know about the system is that when a high policy decision is taken like China shall be carbon neutral by 2060 before 2060 and there's room for China to bring that down to 2050 what I know of the system is that it's translated through the five-year planning documents down to all the branches of industry the stationary energy sector the transport sector the building and construction sector and the rest as well as energy efficiency measures and so on balance I believe that is central to the system just two qualifying points there because of the COVID impact you have seen an upsurge in China's coal-fired power construction and a pre-COVID upsurge as well surge I should say uptake when the economy began to soften in 2018-2019 what the Chinese will say to you is that this is a temporary blip against a strategic trend towards the downward use of coal within their country and their long-term transfer through the transition of gas into full renewables and that's because not because they like you not because they like me not because they like Anna I'm sure they do like Bruce but the bottom line is it's because they've worked out that's the science and that's their national self-interest now the key question for the Chinese is will the same science apply to restrictions in their funding by foreign direct investment or by loans from their national financial institutions for coal-fired power station construction in the Belt and Road Initiative countries around the world outside China which is currently underway mind you Japan and Korea have been doing the same thing the challenge there for the Chinese policy elite is to stop that and to apply the same disciplines internationally to those which they are indicating they will apply nationally through the 14 five-year plan I think that debate is still being had but I think it will be resolved over the course of the next five years in favour of decarbonising the Belt and Road Initiative as well Thanks again Kevin and Anna we had a lot of trouble technical problems there so I do want to give you the opportunity to speak up here we'd love to hear from you but we only have you know around a minute left we're already over time so did you want to pick up on any points there about alternatives to coal I will can you hear me now Loud and clear Okay great sorry about that Hydrogen is the other alternative that's rapidly gaining attention and promise so I mentioned earlier that hydrogen can substitute for some of the transport fuels but it can also substitute for coal the coal that's not only when we're talking about using renewables to replace coal in electricity but there is coal that's used in making steel hydrogen can be the direct production agent in place of coal and use the same and use its chemical properties in in place of coal for converting iron into steel so that is an extremely promising technology and there's much talk of green steel now as as an alternative and within our within reach technologically so there's still a lot of work to do but there is opportunity to do it and I think that links to your early question about COVID and this moment might be a temporary pause in emissions but it is a big moment to seize for accelerating these investments that the climate action requires when we published our latest research on the pathways that were needed it was right on the brink of COVID and we found that what we could still just be within reach of the Paris targets but only if we really accelerated the investment in the technologies bringing forward what was already mature and developed but making it more in and widespread and that report the all-in effort then COVID struck and we have as Bruce mentioned everyone going all in we are working together and governments are now injecting substantial new investments into their economies so it's actually a make or break moment for climate these in this injection of investment new research today out for this week from the UK shows that just one tenth of the COVID recovery budgets worldwide would be enough to get us on track for the Paris agreement targets but if we don't do that as you pointed out earlier Janice COVID is a huge distraction it's difficult times in a global recession decision makers are busy enough as it is and we want them to pay more attention to climate action so if we miss this moment to achieve the double dividend of addressing climate action while addressing COVID recovery we really miss missing the moment of this decade to turn emissions around and we may cross those tipping points so it is a big moment to grab and I hope everyone listening can do all that they can to grab this moment and we must well certainly I think there's a lot of momentum behind that sort of sentiment isn't there that we've got to use this opportunity to to rethink and recalibrate how we address certain things and especially climate change so a huge thank you to our panelists the Honourable Kevin Rudd also Bruce Pascoe author and Anna Scarbeck CEO of ClimateWorks Australia thank you so much we could have easily spoken for another hour it's just absolutely whipped along but I'd encourage everyone who's tuned in to maybe keep that conversation going online get engaged the more discussion we have this the better I think another huge thank you to the Vice-Chancellor Professor Brian Schmidt for his wonderful opening remarks and of course to Paul Howes for that lovely welcome to country thanks again to everyone for sharing your sage wisdom with us it's been a real honour to be hosting this and a big thank you to everyone at the Sir Roland Wilson Foundation for your tireless work in putting together the 2020 Wilson dialogue thanks to to the ANU of course and special shout out to Sally Ann Henfrey Executive Director of the Sir Roland Wilson Foundation for the hard work she's put into this event this evening along with her fantastic team and a big thank you to you the audience for tuning in lovely to have you on board we really appreciate your support for being engaged in such a significant discussion it's been my pleasure I'm Janice Peterson I shall see you on the news good night