 Now moving on, we will start the conference with a very robust panel discussion. And the topic for this panel discussion is what brand advocacy looks like generating passion. Ladies and gentlemen, the session chair for this panel discussion is Mr. Ashwin Padmanaban. He's head trading and partnership group M. Ashwin, as I have said, heads trading and partnerships through group M in India. His key mandate is to work with media, content, data and technology partners to co-create unique and innovative media solutions that will enhance the value that group M agencies offer to their clients. Ladies and gentlemen, I would now request Mr. Ashwin to please come and join me on the stage and to take this session forward. Thank you. I think without much ado, I'd like to invite my co-panelists, Anupak, the CMO of Sanjit Goenka Group, FMCG Business. We've seen a couple of brands from this table, one brand in specific, which has made some waves in the recent past. Two YUM and a unique positioning that they've taken. Anupam, glad to have you here. Anurita, a very tough category you manage, Anurita. Anurita heads the oral health category at GSK, and we all have heard of the brands in Sudine. Very tough one to manage, so we'll talk more about that. Mayank, category head at Parle, an iconic brand with multiple iconic sub-brands within. I was just talking about the fact that a panel probably except for Sandeep here is so FMCG heavy, so we're going to have some interesting conversations. Puneet, Puneet is the head of marketing at Tata Global Beverages. We've seen some fantastic campaigns coming from here, including the Tata T Jagure 2, which made some big waves. Sudanshu is the category head, the skits at Mondleys. How can we not know about Oreo, and the kind of penetration it's managed to make so quickly? 2011 is, I think, when Oreo came into India. In six, seven years, Oreo is all over the place. Samya, Samya is the chief client officer at Kantar IMRB, and finally Sandeep. He's the head of marketing at Jaguar. It's an example of a company which is diversified across different product categories. I think the biggest new launch that they did was in the lighting business. We were just talking how well it's done for them. Thank you all. Thank you for making time today. We guys were talking about today's conversation, and maybe I kind of threw a question which got everybody rallied against me. But it's an interesting conversation that do we really need advocates? Do brands really need advocates? But we'll talk more about that. But before we start, I think there is something that I read about a couple of years back. A book which kind of changed the way I look at the world. And this is not a marketing book. A book called The Sapiens by Mr. Khrari. And he spoke about this concept called Imagine Realities. And how Peugeot was the first company that got created ever in the world. And what was it? It was like a real person, but it's an imagined reality. There's no physical manifestation to that, but it was an imagined reality. And he speaks about how when the Homo sapiens became the predominant human species 40,000 years ago, what differentiated them from the other human species that existed then was the ability of the Homo sapiens to create stories, to bind people together with stories, find common ground stories like imagine realities like a country, imagine realities like a football team, bring them together and rally people around to a cause. Or rally people around to buying something. What brands, I think the first brand happened about 18 years back, 18, 90 years back. And I think brands are an example of an imagined reality. But we don't think of it like that because it's a part of our daily lives today. And brands get adopted by each of us. We all are consumers. We get adopted. Some of us have our preferred brands, but we tend to switch as well. But we do talk about some brands with great pride whenever we meet anybody, whenever we talk to someone. And that's what all of us dream of, right, to have more and more consumers talk about our brands and become advocates for our brands. But what really, what's the trigger for some consumers to become advocates? And I think that's what I'm curious about. All of you have spent many, many years working with mass market brands. And I'm sure you would have had experiences where something clicked, something worked which connected the brand with the consumer. And what is that formula? I think that's a question that probably if you can unravel, it might, even for the audience, it might be quite helpful. So, over to you. Hi, good evening all. I think it's an important question. And I think perhaps a key question that sets the ball rolling in what defines brand advocacy or consumer advocacy for that matter. And I think there could be, that could be several things, but I think as a primary, whatever the brand promises, if it delivers that commitment to the consumer, it's a good start. So, whether it is the brand's proposition, whether it's the functional promise, whether it's the emotional promise and the experience that the brand delivers to the consumer, I think it starts with that. Many a times it happens that we falter at the very first step and that's where the engagement starts to break. And there is no seeds sown of the engagement to start. So, I think that perhaps is one start. And actually ensuring that you continue doing it time and again and keep the customer or the consumer happy and satisfied actually is really the core where brand advocacy starts. So, I think over a period of time, if you feel that you have given what you promised and the consumer has appreciated it, there is a bit of loyalty that starts to form and that's where some seeds of brand advocacy starts to actually get germinated. So, I think a very important point, very basic point. If you deliver what you promised, advocacy starts from there. I think beautifully said, Anurita, you manage, like I said, an extremely tough category. Is it an oral health category? Is it somewhere in between what a doctor prescribes to what as a consumer I would probably tend to use as a product every day, right? In fact, a lot of the communication, Sensorine especially tends to lean on specialists like doctors to talk about the efficacy. How do you build consumer advocates for a category like this? Thanks for the question, Ashwin. To me, and I'll answer the question in two ways, the only thing that matters is the moment of truth. And that moment of truth can happen when you first get introduced to a brand and I'm going back to when we all started understanding what brands were. And the first thing that we kind of were taught or learnt was that a brand is a human being. A brand has a persona, a brand has a connection. So the only thing that matters is the emotional connect that the brand has with its consumers. And I will recall, you know, even as a kid, the Mozart's tune of Titan, those are the things that, you know, it evokes something in you. And people actually buy, you know, products based on this emotional response. Now coming to your question on oral health, yes, it's a very, very tough category to move, you know, half a millimeter takes a lot of effort. And especially with Sensorine, as you rightly said, that it is a specialist brand. But the good news or the bad news, whichever way you put it, the good news for us is one in three people suffer from sensitivity. And people don't know that. Our first task is to educate consumers, to make them understand that it is a problem. It will not go away. It will worsen over time. But for them, the moment of truth is again how they connect with it, the usage of the product to your point that it has to finally deliver its purpose. So it gives you relief. It makes you sensitivity free. You enjoy that ice lolly, that garam chai, that thanda pani, things that you're living without for no reason. So that's the purpose of this brand. And that's what we are living up to. So again, kind of taking on from what Anupam said about you promise something and you deliver. You have a very functional benefit for the brand. But your challenge is getting people to become aware that, hey, this is a problem in your lives and you need to figure out something about it. But have you used advocates in your communication who are consumer advocates? Our first advocate is the dentist. So we use the dentist and those are actual practicing dentists. In the UK, we cannot use the Indian dentist. And I hear so much about this, but it's the Indian laws and we cannot use Indian dentists much as I would like to. But we reach 20,000 dentists. We use a foreign dentist who is an Indian. Absolutely. But we reach 20,000 dentists and they believe in the product. They believe in the science behind the product. And we have consumers. For us, it's phenomenal the kind of word of mouth we get from consumers talking to each other, telling each other that it works. And we do a lot of social listening. We do a lot of, of course, direct consumer interaction. And it's fascinating because you have people telling each other, go use sense of dying because it will change your life. So while the promise is rational, but the benefit that it has to changing your life is very, very emotional. I mean, talk to a person who goes through an electric shock every time he has an ice cream, he or she will tell you. Absolutely. So translating what's, what you promise functionally, what we're saying is ultimately connects with consumers at an emotional and at much deeper level. And that's where the relationship starts getting built. So I've jumped to Sudhanshu there. You know, you manage like an iconic brand, right? And a brand which probably all of us have tried to play with. I think you use the word play quite often in your communication. Absolutely. Well said. So probably advocacy is not been a challenge because consumers have been living with the brand and with the product in different ways. They talk about it. Probably they don't even talk about it. They just use it in different ways. How did Oreo get here? I know it's a long journey for Oreo, but it's one unique brand, probably worldwide, which has managed to take this position, which has managed to connect with consumers so deeply and in so many different ways. So I think I resonate with what Anurita and Anupam has just said. I think, and I also connect with what you said, really boil down. How do you create brand love? How do you create passion for brand? It boils down to what experience you are giving to consumers. And the way we think about it and the way Oreo globally has been thought through. Experience is not just the product promise, but what does the larger purpose the brand stands for? And what is the larger role which brand wants to serve in consumers' lives? And it's very important. If you want to become an iconic brand, you need to get what we call product to purpose, brand foundation rights. So what's your product promise? What's your emotional payoff? And what's your larger purpose? So in case of Oreo, if you see this brand is really all about building moments of bonding between kids and father and siblings. And that's something which really is a delight, which resonates with moms across the globe a lot. So a product ritual, which is swiftly done, which is a product promise, triggering that moment of connection, a moment of playful connection between a kid and a father, which is just a delight for a mom. So that's something this brand stands for. It's rooted in very, very strong consumers' centric insight, which is a tension which creates aha. And when you have that kind of a brand foundation and you be consistent, and then over the years, through your creative excellence, build that proposition in consumer mind and deliver that experience which creates that aha. I think that's at the heart of it. How do you create brand love? Your product promise and your purpose needs to be solid and resonate with consumer and you need to be consistent. I guess we all try to achieve this with all our brands. Absolutely. But what Oreo has achieved is probably beyond many other brands have been able to do. Is it just happened or is there a design? This is the holy grail of marketing. There are brands which have been able to achieve that kind of an iconic stature. There are brands which are not. I think it's all boiled down to saying, again, what is it? You need to, as a brand marketer, try and build that purpose, what your brand stands for, rooted in consumer understanding. The stronger your consumer understanding is, stronger the cultural tension you understand and hence try and play a role and then be consistent. So I think the answer is, as far as brand love is concerned, I'll take few names. Oreo is a great example. Cadbury Dairy Milk is another example. I mean, it's a brand which defines the golden taste of chocolate in this country. But it's not just the product. It stands for something which is much bigger than just the chocolate. It's about amplifying that moment of joy in your life which everyone seeks. It's something which in our campaigns like Kuchmita Hojai, over the years, we have been doing consistently and in an excellent manner. And that's what makes brands. I think a great example, I'm sure Mayank can talk about, Parleji. It's a simple, great product, but it's not just the product. It stands for some philosophy. Similarly, brands like Bonvita. It's at the end of the day a nutritional, tasty milk additive, but it stands for certain philosophy. So I think that's the holy grail of marketing. How do you really get to the right foundation which is your right product promise to right purpose and then be consistent and do some excellent creative work over the years is what makes brand. I think the other piece which I just want to talk about, creating brand love in today's world is not just enough. Not every consumer who loves your brand will be your advocate. So how do you trigger this loyal consumer or a consumer who loves you to come out of its lethargy or inertia and talk about it? And that's the new space which I think as a marketer, we are trying to test and learn. How do you entice? How do you encourage? Or maybe how do you even reward your loyal customers to come out, engage, interact and spread the word? So in that space, there's a lot of stuff which we are trying. So Oria for example, I was talking with you. The whole piece around creating recipes. Now we know it's something which is great interest. It's something which is very meaningful for the consumer out there. And when you create recipes, when you put it out there, when you create some kind of engagement around it, consumer engages share and becomes larger than life. It gets you a lot wider reach than probably you were otherwise planning for. I mean it improves your marketing ROI like how? And it spreads the word. It spreads the further strength and the love for the brand. So there's this whole piece around saying as a marketer, you need to build love for your brand. By the same time, you need to start learning on how do you entice, encourage and reward these consumers to come out and spread the word for you. So I see these are two different spaces and both are challenging. So you use the word loyalty. And we all know of Mr. Byron Sharp's view on loyalty. So we'll talk about that. But Puneet, you've got a product which is a staple. And we probably use this product almost robotically when we start our day. But over the years, Tatati has managed to carve a very clear image which you've kind of given it different versions as you've gone by. You've evolved it and you came up with Jagore 2 last year. And it did significantly well. You took two big causes to take to the market. How have you seen campaigns like Jagore and the way you've evolved the campaign as well over the years linked back to consumers associating with the brand and feeling good about being associated with the brand as well? What kind of, finally when you look at business, how has it impacted you? Yeah, so I think just picking up on some of the points that the panel here was making. It is about driving an emotional connection. That's what brand advocacy, one of the pillars for success is. And in some of the products, I mean you mentioned correctly, it's tea at the end of the day. You wake up and you have tea. So the moment of truth has been met. The functional aspect has been met. So it's a very transactional relationship. That stage is not going to get you the brand advocacy. It's going to get you at best the loyal customer or satisfied customer. And which is where I agree that satisfaction and loyalty is not enough. If you really want consumers to talk about your brand, there needs to be a sense of ownership. And that sense of ownership comes in, in our case Jagore was about standing for causes which consumers identify with. Because they need to feel they're the part of the brand. I mean advocacy is a very, very strong word. You think consumers' passions and what the brand stood for came together? Yes. So one of the hallmarks of success is that, you know, it was not just a, you know, this, it was not a marketing out campaign. It was about going through what the pulse of the nation is, what's the mood of the country right now. I mean at that various points in time, what are they feeling, whether it was at the corruption stage, the, you know, inspiring people to vote more or in the last campaign, which is about don't just wait for things to happen but preact. It was about sensing what the mood of the country or the larger audience is and then, you know, showcasing them and asking them to be a part of it. In fact, the success of Jagore has been that it's been a two-way relationship. So which is the other point that I was trying, you know, that brand advocacy you were asking for a formula, you know. Everyone's talked about experience. I think the other missing factor is relationship. What sort of relationship are you having with your consumer? Is it a transactional one-way relationship or is it a two-way? Because if only you get to that stage is when the ownership starts coming and the brand passion starts coming and consumers talk about your brand. So in this, in our case, it has been branded advocacy based on a purpose which people in the larger population resonate with and we have sort of managed to make it, keep it contemporized because it's built on genuine, you know, sort of an emotion. And you've seen a positive impact of the way Tata Tee has taken Jagore as a primary vehicle in terms of the way you've been able to create advocates for the brand as well as finally when I look at sales numbers, you've seen significant impact. Oh yeah, absolutely. That's the reason why obviously we have also continued with forward ten years and, you know, one of the first brands to probably would have started in the FMCB space and continued with it and it's got, I mean, Tata Tee Premium is the number one brand. So it has worked for us from a business point of view but more importantly as Mr. Anurag was also mentioning in the beginning it's based on a very authentic experience. So, and I think that has resonated well with the consumers and ensured that, you know, so even in the brand team, you know, the brand teams that work on it, you know, the kind of passion and the kind of purpose that they, you know, you can see on their faces. It's much more than any other marketing campaign because I think it resonates and it's taken a Tee which, you know, you wake up to almost to a place where, you know, it awakens me, you know, and taking it to that level. So yeah, from a business point of view and from an emotion point of view I think both it resonates very well. Sandeep, you know, obviously when I first saw Jaguar's lighting commercial I was a bit taken aback because in my mind Jaguar was so deeply embedded into the space of bathroom fittings and similar kind of products and it took me some time to kind of relate Jaguar to a new category like that. The brands the same, a new product category. How have you kind of, have you been able to translate the kind of advocates you've had for the traditional categories Jaguar has been in to the new category of lighting that you've brought on? Have you seen some kind of transfer happening of advocates of the brand Jaguar even though the product category has changed? Because it's a different kind of a switch you're trying to do. Well, lighting is just a new business I would say but just to bring to your notice in bathroom space we almost own 60% market share in India. And yes, you know, the founders and the management believes that water and electricity are the two critical part for the home and we are great products that channelize that. So that's the whole core of the business. Though the business dynamics is completely different. Yes, end consumer is same. But coming back to the today's discussion and I think I can really cite one of this kind of a case study for all of you guys, that we have about the business which we do in bathroom trade. We have 10% of network, thus 65% of business. So my trade channel partners are there from three generations. So if I can take one aspect of the brand advocacy, it's not only just with end customers but the whole ecosystem has to resonate the same. So it's very, very important that yes, in all our researches though FMCG has by the volume of advertising consumption because bathroom and lighting is a very niche category is only when you need it then you recall the category. In spite of that, it's been a super brand from last six terms and it's in the top say 50 brands in the recall. It's just because and all is trusted. So all our research comes that you're the most trusted bath brand and we went deeper than what really say these, why these guys say you will trust them is that the kind of service we provide, which is customer care. So one example is like plumbers in India is not a trained profession. There's no finishing school for plumbers. The way in best there are proper, you know, the courses for professionals in there. India is like a hit and try, you become a plumber and the havoc they create in your bathroom space is that for everybody to have experienced that. We train plumbers wherein majority people bribe them is all training session ends with the booze and some 100 or 200 rupees note. From last 60 years, we only train plumbers and we give them tools. We enhance, we create value for them and when he knows that he can now earn not only 500 rupees a day because of training he'll get 800 rupees a day or 1000 rupees a day, the dynamics changes. And this is one thing which we have done which is first of its kind that today you have 10 types of products in bathroom. So like your shower, your shower and closures, your whirlpools, your taps, you have 20 plumbers doing that job because there aren't a plumber available who does all. So we are creating a pool of plumbers which is a complete bathroom solutions plumber. So when you do such things, you know, then definitely whether it's a trader who's doing your business or whether plumbers who's executing because last mile execution is very important in a B2B category is wherein brand has a certain level of influence. The people will keep coming to a store and say, I want Jack Wa but the dealer, the plumber can change again there. So if you ensure that you know you have full proof the system, then definitely, and this is the whole trust factor of Jack Wa definitely is transcending into lighting also. As an end customer level, the channel partners, a lot of, you know, the business dynamics so different between bathroom and lighting, a 50-person bathroom network channel partners are saying we are willing to come in West End becoming a lighting dealer for you because I know when Jack Wa does something, it ought to be good. So this is where you create brand advocates and this is how been the journey so far. I think very important point about how the channel becomes very critical and they are also very large advocates for products and brands that we work with. Swami, you've worked across brands and you've seen brands, you've researched on brands and do you see any kind of formula here and I keep on asking this question but I guess that's why we have. Let me just strike a slightly contrarian note. So I mean, there's a lot of passion in brand building which obviously all marketers bring to the table but at the end of the day, the consumer doesn't really get up thinking that I'm going to love a brand. There's too many other things he or she has in her life. You don't even get relationships right because the brand is a lot more distant but there are some brands that tend to get it right and in my experience how I see those brands versus other brands is, there are brands where we talk to consumers and they really have to force them to think about the brand, figure out the brand as their uncle, aunt, brother, sister and at the end of the day, you get nothing and we are told that you're meeting the wrong consumers and then there are some brands consumers naturally self-express. When they are not available, they actually feel the loss. I mean, in recent past, I mean, you talk about a brand like Maggie, when it was, I mean, even when it went through the trust deficit that it went through, even at that time it did have very strong advocates. Some of these brands, and I will also quote a brand like Hollicks or brands like Thumbs Up, some of these brands, there's no secret formula but in some way they become, they either own a ritual or a moment of truth and they become such an integral part of your life that when they are not there, you miss them and that is where the true, that is where the true test of whether a brand is able to evoke emotion or not. So I think there's no secret formula but missing a brand when it's not there. I think the interesting point that you said what you're saying is that a large part of building the brand and having advocates for the brand is to get more and more consumers to use or consume your brand or product as often as possible and in a manner where it allows them to build a relationship, in a manner where if that product or brand didn't exist probably I will really miss it like you're saying, right? Very interesting, so clearly then we're going around to a very different, you know, you're laughing, but you know, thanks Amya, very interesting point and we'll surely come back to that. My, you know, iconic brand, Parle G, you know, it's almost anonymous with the category itself. But I'm curious, what got you to actually want to do a campaign like Naam to Sunahi Hoga? So firstly, Naam to Sunahi Hoga was not so much about Parle G, as much as about Parle G. Yeah, the corporate brand Parle G. The rational behind doing that was while people knew about Parle G and Parle is a corporate which markets Parle G, very few people knew about the other brands that we have, we have 50 plus brands and quite a few of them really very iconic, probably a hide and seek or a crack jack or a monaco. But people were not able to relate those brands back with Parle. I mean that was the challenge and that was the reason why we came up with. So it was not so much about a Parle G kind of a brand as much as about a corporate brand Parle. And ideally, you know, in case of consumers not being able to tie it back to the mother brand or corporate brand Parle, the issue was probably somewhere they were not able to, you know, understand how big or how great, you know, the corporate brand Parle is. So to put it, I mean, you know, as it's said, I mean, the sum of parts is always greater than, you know, I mean, the whole is always greater than the sum of parts. And that's what, you know, we intended to do when we did Namtho Sonai Hoga. So it was more from a point of view of corporate brand where we were trying to, you know, make consumers relate those iconic brands back to the mother brand or corporate brand Parle. While they loved those, you know, brands individually, we've always been, you know, advertising those brands as, you know, completely independent brand not with the corporate parentage or anything like that. And that's how people knew it. But somewhere the need was felt that, you know, we need to relate them back to the corporate brand so as to give the corporate brand its due. And that was one of the reasons... This is, did you see kind of rub-off because Parle itself as a brand, like the campaign itself said, is a very strong brand, we all know about it, we all experienced it, we all consume it. But there are multiple products and brands within the fold. So when you did this campaign, did some of that kind of rub-off into the other categories and the other brands as well? So in fact, you know, we saw as, you know, right from your brand tracks to many other, you know, research that we did, that people started not only relating, you know, back, but, you know, they were, and if I have to really quote some of the qualitative, you know, responses I had with them, like we never knew about so many brands coming from Parle. You know, I mean, for us, Parle was all about Parle G and at most, if they are a little evolved, they would talk about probably Karak Jekor and Monaco, talk about, you know, many of the brands that we have, be it 2020 or Magix or, you know, Haydn Seeker, Milano and, you know, Laudmore, or the entire range of confectionary or even snacking, you know, brands that we have, very few people knew about those brands. And in terms of specific to Parle G, obviously, the market and the comparative environment has changed dramatically, and it still continues to be a very strong brand, continues to hold its market share. How has the brand continued to run at this period of running, even with all the competition? And what have been the experiences of the loyalists, as we call them, and the advocates, what's been their role in driving this brand? So, you know, I mean, I told you in the beginning when we met that, you know, you have two biscuit marketiers on the panel, so you'll find, you know, quite a few views which are similar, and, you know, I would, in fact, you know, agree to quite a few things with Sudhanshu, say, wholeheartedly, in fact. So, you know, to begin with what Samya said. So, you know, there's one school of thought where, as Puneet said, you know, you're a very transactional relation with your consumer, where if you're doing a quantitative research or you're doing something like a household panel or something like that, you measure loyalty in terms of, you know, out of the last 10 buys, how many times have a consumer bought your brand? And if you say he has bought, you know, seven times, you're 70% loyalty. I mean, that's one way of looking at it quantitatively. From, you know, and very transactional. That's very transactional relation that you have with your consumer. To probably, you know, what Anupam said, that, you know, you promise a particular value or an attribute, you know, and then you deliver on it. Where I would say, you know, you go a little further and you probably over-deliver and delight them from where probably, you know, typically advocacy starts. And they'll start talking about you. So, you know, if you are delivering what you have promised, it's like a transaction. They think that, okay, this is what I paid for. I've got that kind of value. But the moment you over-deliver or deliver more than what you promised is when they get delighted and they start talking about it, to my mind, you know, the asset test for advocacy would be how many consumers will really, you know, root for your brand when you are in some kind of a crisis. I'll give you an example. But I'm saying, you know, we've seen that, that the moment, you know, consumers start rooting for your brand and not you is when you will, so in case of apology, I think, you know, it has been huge. In fact, you know, I've said this earlier, you know, quite a few times, but the way consumers are related to probably a brand like Parle G is that the first processed food, at times, even the first solid food given to an infant is Parle G Mejdenmil. It starts, you know, that early. And it's something that's going on since generations. So, you know, the kind of bond they have that with a brand is something different. I mean, you know, they root for the brand. And as I said, you know, it's when your brand transcends that barrier of being an asset on your balance sheet to being probably owned by consumers is when you can really say that, you know, they're advocating your brand, or that you have that kind of advocacy. In a case, in case of Parle G, you know, I mean, that's, I would say to an extent which was, you know, at times even unbelievable for us. In quite a few focus group discussions or stuff like that, when we normally talk to them, they normally don't reveal, you know, the company you're coming from. So when you're talking to consumers, maybe housewives or mothers and stuff like that, and you talk about your brand, you try to say something negative about the brand. They'll come back, they'll fight with you and they'll tell you, you know, you don't know anything. You tell them, you know, it's good for your kid. What do you know about it? We'll tell you how good it is. That's how you know it comes back. So that's what to my mind really is advocacy where they start rooting for your brand and you know, might be, you know, financially the ownership of that asset is with you, but emotionally it has transcended that barrier and is now probably owned by consumers. So I think I'm seeing a thread across. One is people need to consume and use the product and the brand. That's the base. But all of us seem to be talking about the fact that the moment the transaction has an emotional connection. The moment I can relate it to something that happens in my life every day or those special moments that happen in my life. The joyful, you know, banter that I might have with my kid while making an Oreo shake. Those moments allow me to build a relationship with the brand and cherish that relationship and in some form some of us might translate ourselves into advocates for the brand. I really love what you said, Mike, the fact that you almost kind of needle the consumers about probably making a negative statement and they fought back to where consumers fight for us and fight for the brands. And what Soumya spoke about Maggie was also very true. We all missed Maggie extensively when it went off the shelves and we really wanted to be back. You know, we kind of seem to be agreeing too much here, but we all know there's been an extremely contrary view that's been going on for quite some time for almost four, five years now and which says that unless and until, as a marketer, your role is to get your brand to the maximum number of people out there which means you get into their physical and emotional space both. The maximum number of consumers that you can get to is how you will create those opportunities to build relationships. And thus, create potentials for advocacy which kind of goes against this whole theory of targeting people who buy my product more, which goes against the theory of even segmentation of any form. And Byron Shup has written a lot about it, I think in multiple forums, we've all spoken about it. But when we think about the conversation we just had, what he says doesn't seem to be wrong, isn't it? Because we all are saying that you need to create an experience for an emotional bond to get created. And more the number of consumers to whom we can take this experience, the brand becomes stronger. So why is there so much of a opposition or a belief that no, I need to segment, I need to target, I need to look at my products differently? Or is it purely because I have got limited marketing dollars and I need to figure out the best possible way to spend it for the biggest bank for the buck? That's what drives that segmentation? Because if I was a marketer, probably I would want to reach out to everybody, isn't it? Sudhanshu? Hello, yeah. I think it's a debate which can go on till cows come home. But I think it's not a contradiction. The way I see it, so what laws of growth and buying shops say is that you need to maximize your reach. Your goal is penetration. And to get to the penetration, you need to drive reach, your mental availability, physical availability and reach. The way advocacy, and I'm not going into the segmentation piece, I mean segmentation again, it's a question of how much budget you have and how much reach within the segment you want to achieve. I mean you can, as a biscuit brand, I can go and target full country. Everyone needs biscuit, but I will not have a budget to make any reasonable reach. So I need to make choices there. Within those choices, we need to maximize reach. So that's the broad direction. I think we're advocacy and the whole piece around brand love. Really, I feel is in sync. In today's context, in a highly connected digital world, I think the dynamics have completely changed. Today if somebody wants to buy, I mean if you think about it, if you want to buy something, maybe phone electronics, cosmetics, baby food, milk, what we do is we go online, check for reviews, or maybe reach out to our WhatsApp group. So advocacy as a mean to make choices is becoming more powerful. And I mean different categories have different extent of advocacy being the driver. From where we sit as a FMCG company, and where it fits in our thinking with bar and shop laws of growth, we see advocacy as a great means to amplify our reach on digital, on social media, and so and so and forth. So the way we really think, and I'll give you some, I mean one simple example. Very recently, one of our brand, Bonvita, has this whole Beyond Marks campaign during the exam season. So I mean the intent at the very onset was, I mean what is the content which we can create, which is rooted in our brand philosophy, but can inspire this consumer to engage, resonate, and celebrate and spread. So that's where it's like creative, these are jokes. The client goes and tells them that they are kuch banao, which can go viral. That has become the new brief. But that's the reality. That's how we are thinking about it. What content we can create which can be rooted in our brand philosophy, which will resonate with the consumer, and will entice them to engage, interact, and share. And this campaign which your brand team did, we promoted on digital, we went in with certain CPM in mind, certain reach. We engage certain influencers to start conversation on social media, and then it got onto a fire of its own. We delivered 2x of the reach we were anticipating. Suddenly our CPMs were half, ROAs were half. So I think that's where we are looking at it, saying it's a way to amplify our reach in this available bug. And it's hence and completely synced with what laws of growth is. Correct. Sandeep, you know, I'm coming back to you because you have a very unique category amongst all of us here. And very trade-driven, very channel-driven, the channel actually influences the consumer a lot. You spoke about how the channel is actually your biggest advocates. What's the relationship that you've seen between... The channel are your biggest advocates from a consumer decision-making perspective. But it also means that the consumer probably has lesser engagement, slash, you know, the kind of love and warmth, all that we've been speaking about for a brand, probably is challenge, because I have not been a part of the decision-making process. Somebody's advocated for me, I've taken the decision, and I've moved on. How do you build that kind of advocacy with the end consumer? Two ways. See, definitely, every category has its own dynamics. The kind of engagement, the category of mine, you know, is customer is very, very intense. Because, you know, building a home, having a own home, and it's a very big thing for Indians. And we really go crazy when, you know, at this stage. And the whole process is painful at the same time you cherish and you enjoy that. I think the whole game in a category which is slightly more complex and has more engineering or technical side to it, you know, you need to help customer buy. You know, for example, my early days of J. Walter, I used to work on Pepsi, they've done major harm by pulling each other, but barring the pet consumption bottle, they've never done anything to increase the consumption. So if you really help people buy, educate them. So, you know, the advertising is all about education in this category. And what unique thing we have done, we have about 22 orientation centers in the country wherein a customer walks in. Because, you know, I can say there's a forum, like we were shooting for Deepika, and she said, I want a good bathroom, I don't have. So you can, you can see a beautiful bathroom, but how to get it is a challenge. You want to have a whirlpool, but does your plumbing line supports it? Do you have enough flow rate or pressure in the pipeline? So these orientation centers basically educate customers. You walk in there, they'll understand your needs, and they don't sell it. So they're purely, purely education. And the amazing word of mouth is that, you know, I'm coming from a retail background, we have almost 95% consumption. Retail is all about footfall, your ticket size and conversion. So anybody walking into our OCs, they not only convert, they convert big. The guy has no clue that I'm buying a great shower, but I land up buying a water heater from an electrical shop. And that guy has no clue the throughput of my water. And what happens in the shower, the midway in the shower, my hot water is gone and I'm struggling back. So our entire communication, and we do it from, you'll see us in all channels advertising it, but a main game, which is a game changer, is lot of education. Educating end customers, educating dealers, we're making lot of product films, we generate almost 40 lakh footfall on our websites. Now 40 lakh for a category like a bathroom is a crazy, an average, people spend about 10 to 12 minutes. So education is the game. And this is where we'll change people from moving to a shower, curtain to a shower enclosure. Now a lot of homes you'll see, you have a full shower enclosure and you'll just take a shower in a corner. The same space you can put a washing machine there, or you can put a laundry bag there. Now people have no idea. So if I advertise a beautiful looking girl taking a shower while not cut ice, you have to educate customers. So we make lot of product films, we go and talk to customers, we are the only company that doesn't have a sales target. Our guys have our meeting targets. So they're supposed to stand at the retail counter and convert customers for the dealer. And a big conversion. So this is where, and then you create a great advocates. Because if you're not adding value to his purchase, you know, all the brands which you're talking great brand, Parley, Oreo, you know, every great brand has a great mix of product features and great USBs and selling. Eventually you have to add that extra, which was he was not expecting it and it goes a long way. So if I help somebody cross the journey and improve in a bathroom in a very delightful way, this guy will go and tell, you know, to 10 people, undoubtedly. Every night on the dinner table, we have a debate with my family on iOS vs. Android and Apple. And they're not willing to listen to Samsung. Not willing to listen to Android. So you have such an evangelist and loyalist and advocates there, which is purely unemotional because somewhere you hit a chord with them and now you're not willing to, for example, you said, you know, we all remember going for a hiking and, you know, those off-roading trips and you having a Maggie there, those memories are holding you back and you're not willing to take it down that this product is bad. So I think somewhere if you... Interesting point you said for your category as well, that every category there is a huge emotional engagement that exists with that experience. Building a house is an emotional experience. Remodeling a house is an emotional experience. There is a lot that goes into emotionally in that. But the point you said that it's also in this category a puzzle that you can't solve. You don't have answers of how to do it right. You don't have answers for is this the right thing to do or maybe can I do this at all? And you're saying that what is an emotional decision? The brand is kind of partnering the consumer in that emotional journey by showing them the way of how to do things better and how to take the decisions better and that's creating advocates for you. Very interesting. Samya? Take on the question that you had asked Sudhanshu on why is there so much debate on what Byron Sharpe says? Actually simply put, he says you have to make your product available which is a fair point. I mean where the consumer is you have to make your product available. The second thing which is where the debate is is how important is it for you to get repeat customers even in let's say categories like biscuits versus sort of getting more and more new customers. If you turn the problem around and look at trial as not something that happens once in a life but something that happens in a given moment or among a given cohort a target group or at a certain time then you perpetually have to create trial. Trial itself becomes repeat in a sense. So I am going shopping to get for my child I pick up audio I am going shopping to celebrate I pick up audio and so if you can create mental availability or mental cues which are linked to moments or linked to occasions you are perpetually creating trial so if you can make my bathroom purchase not purchase remodeling from let's say once in five years to once in two years which is what a lot of auto manufacturers have done and which is what great advertising does they sort of push you to plant the thought in the head if we can actually create trial on a continuous basis the difference between trial and repeat is no longer a difference I mean Byron Sharp and brand love can coexist I think very brilliantly said really nicely said kind of captures everything that we wanted on you know we just got about two more minutes so I am going to do a quick wrap up with Anavrita this is not obviously the only brand you have worked with you also worked in the gas phase with Philips and a category again which is huge potential to penetrate but low penetration at this point in time in terms of consumers adopting a lot of the products product have advocates and know that Philips has used advocates extensively over the years especially in this category and how was that, how did you do that in the years to run the business there it's an interesting contrast that you mention Ashwin and in fact you were mentioning iOS and Android so I worked with Nokia as well so you know it's just that I think every category goes through a certain task at a certain point in time and there is a Byron Sharp and there is a brand LoveView but large iconic brands brands like Maggie brands like Horlicks I was mentioning it's really about those rituals those memories you know somebody was mentioning the hiking stories etc because to me therefore why is it that Byron Sharp's theory is so controversial it is about those many number of people who have used your brand have had a story about your brand and those many number of people talking to more people about that story so it seems quite logically simple that you talk to as many people as you can you are sure for media efficiencies you will do some kind of segmentation and targeting but penetration any day over consumption so even in personal care our job at that time was actually very simple which is you make people feel good, look good and they feel happy and that's it in mobile phones it is about connecting people similarly you know at GSK our purpose is very simple which is how do you make a difference in a consumer's life how do you improve someone's life how do you make him or her live better it's just as simple as that that purpose is clear there are people who are advocating but here is something that I was also thinking as people were speaking that today consumers have far more opinions they have such strong opinions there is the social media which gives anonymity to anything that you want to say at any point in time and it's great opinionate there is a little bit of descent with celebrities we hold far more credibility to people like us because we know each other and therefore we have higher believability in people like us talking to us about things that we like and we consume it's more like to like and therefore advocacy is not going to disappear in a hurry Puneet I think we have all mentioned about emotion and brand advocacy being about emotion and I think what we need to realize is and the hiking stories and the Oreo shake and all they are part of human memories now what you are not remembering is the shake that you gave to your child parent child bonding that you had and the brand was part of it what you are not remembering is just the what you are remembering is the cause that you believed in and now you are able to be a part of it and make a change and that's what emotion is emotion is so fundamental which is why it is about what you were mentioning about do we target so many customers versus focusing on a few it is part of a strategy I mean it is a choice of strategy but it is about going wide versus going deep you can't have it is the it is the equivalent of having thousand friends on facebook but only having a connection with 50 of them you can keep on increasing numbers but the real experiences start happening on a one to one deeper level from a one person and that is why brand advocacy is very important because it gives you that multiplier effect if you form that bond with that one person that one person goes and forms that bond and stands with you as we were talking about the MAG example or any other whether it is a crisis situation they are the ones who are advocating for the brand so that's why I think the brand what is very under leverage what the power of brand advocacy that I think we need to leverage is really the power of the multiplier that you form that emotion take your time and that takes time you can't form a relationship which is why a lot of iconic brands have stood the test of time because they have also formed those relationships over time so it's not a short term strategy but it needs to be done very very mindfully and with authenticity and the rest of the strategy continues to be there that's it thank you so much I am going to quickly wrap this up some points that came up clearly to start with what you promise you deliver that's the hygiene on top of that maybe able to create those moments and I am going to borrow Samya's words where you create those opportunities for consumers to try out create those trials constantly which also build an emotional connect with your brand and the way you use the brand ends up creating probably loyal customers we all agree that loyal customers and advocates will end up adding the multiplier we all want we all would love to reach out to everybody out there and probably the advocates will allow us to reach out to more and more consumers much beyond what we can spend on media probably so with that thank you so much everybody thank you for making this time and I hope it was interesting enough for each of you out there thank you so much