 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Critical Conversations, where we talk about hot topic issues related to American Muslims and other targeted communities. Today we will talk about the increased visibility and participation of Muslim women in American politics. And to understand the potential impact that we'll have on narratives and perceptions surrounding Muslim women, we are joined today by Tahira Amital Wadoud, who is an attorney and also a former candidate for Congress from Massachusetts first congressional district. And also Shaheen Pasha, who is a professor of journalism at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. Thank you both so much for coming today. Thank you. So Shaheen, let me begin with you. This is the first time in U.S. history that we have two Muslim women in Congress. And during the midterms, we had approximately 30 Muslim women running for public office. And there was a lot of excitement and buzz in the media and also in the public discourse about their candidacies, about their campaigns. What do you think that tells us about the underlying assumptions people have about Muslim women and why do these exist? I think it tells us that fundamentally, there's still a belief here in the U.S. that Muslim women are not part of the narrative, that they're still removed. And so when you start to see Muslim women like Tahira step up, which is something that should be normal and natural because while part of the country, it becomes this topic of conversation. It becomes a very cool topic that everyone has to focus on the religion, their background, because the assumption is that Muslim women cannot partake in politics. They're either oppressed or just more repressed in terms of their natures and just don't want to be involved in American culture. And I think that what we're seeing now is this ability of American women, Muslim women to come forward and say, no, I'm here. I've always been here and maybe society is ready for us to actually have a voice now and I'm ready to do it. So I think it's a really great time for Muslim women to be coming forward and entering politics, but I think it's something that's always been, I think some of the strongest women I know are Muslim women just in everything in social cultural society. So I think the American public is starting to see that. Great. And so, Vera, you also had run an incredible campaign to unseat a 27-year incumbent here from Massachusetts' first congressional district. And there was a lot of national media coverage that your campaign received. And I'm wondering whether that focus on your religious identity served to hinder or help your campaign? There were, yeah. A number of things about my identity seem to just capture the attention of the media and of people. It was that I was a woman. It was also that I'm African American and that I'm Muslim. So all of those factors and the intersectionality that it creates made it very interesting for people. And so it became the story. It was girl versus guy. It was young versus old. It was this identity versus a white male. The good thing about is that people were excited to talk about the candidacy. Even if that was the way that the door was open to the discussion, I was always able and keenly aware to talk about policy and to talk about my skill set and what I do. But it really forced me to really reflect also on my history, my family background and where I got strength and to share some deeply personal information about myself and that history and how it fit into what motivated me to run for office. It was really fascinating. Wonderful. And just the focus on you being a Muslim woman. I mean did that engender any kind of backlash while you were on the campaign trail? So I sometimes wonder and it depends on any given day and in whatever community that I'm in or what audience I'm in front of. But I wonder sometimes if people, if they had concerns about who I was and what my identity was, if it was based on my race as a Black American or if it was based on my religion as a Muslim and third would be woman. I think frequently people were more comfortable with me being a Black American than they were with me being a Muslim. And I'll tell you with my anecdotal unscientific experiences was that in certain circles, depending on how detailed I became about my history, when I explained that my parents converted from Christianity to Islam and so that I actually was four years old when they became Muslim, you can sometimes see people relax and warm up to me. Like you could almost touch it. It was at times a tangible relief. And why is that? Is that because you came from something that was familiar but then converted to something perhaps not so familiar? I think that's right. And when I say that I lived in a family that accepted the harmonious relationship between Muslims and Christians, that also diffuses whatever concerns they have, but it also allowed us. And I'm running for office. I want to talk about health insurance. I want to talk about the economic opportunities of the community. But if I'm spending a few minutes telling folks where I find commonality even in my religious beliefs, if that helps to continue those conversations, then I'm happy to do it. But you see how much of that emotional labor and having to expose some of my own personal background, I'm doing that. My opponent, a white male who's been in office for three decades, isn't doing. It's a lot of work. Absolutely, absolutely. And so Shaheen, let me turn to you. I mean, now we have two Muslim women in Congress and they couldn't be more different if we look at, you know, just sort of look at them at the surface level. One is a Somali American. Another is a Palestinian American. One wears the hijab. The other does not. One regularly uses Islamic references in her regular ordinary speech. The other uses an expletive to call for Donald Trump's impeachment. So just the fact that we have two very different Muslim women in Congress right now, how do you think that is going to change people's perceptions about them and about Muslim women in general? I think it actually highlights the fact that Muslim women are not monolithic. I mean, you have two Muslim women right here that, you know, look different. And I think that here in the U.S., we still have these preconceived notions about what makes a Muslim woman, what a Muslim woman looks like, how a Muslim woman behaves, what her role is in society. And I think the fact that you are seeing two Muslim women who are of different races, different styles of communication and appearance, that is very much the Muslim community. So I think the fact that we're finally seeing that in politics, because politics is supposed to be representative of society. And that I can't imagine anything that is more representative of society than these two women. And for me, I personally, I think this was a huge moment for me because growing up, I mean, I was born in the U.S., my family is Pakistani, but I was born here. And I never saw anybody that kind looked like me as a Muslim American. And there was always some sort of other thing of otherness, right? And this is the first time there is no otherness because there is no other. You can't sit there and say all Muslim women are like this because this Muslim woman is like that and this Muslim woman is like that. And I think the fact that we're starting to see that is really showing that American politics are becoming more representative or moving in the direction of more representation of all of its constituents. And I think it's a huge move and I'm personally so excited about it. That's wonderful. And so you said, I mean, you grew up over here, right? And yes, I mean, there is this greater visibility of Muslim women now. But I mean, the fact that, I mean, it has something shifted over the past couple of generations because Muslims have been here in America for a very long time, especially African American Muslims. But it's still an immigrant heavy population, right? So do you think that's just the fact that they've been here for longer now, that we're seeing more Muslim women feeling more comfortable in participating in politics? I think if you're taking a look at the immigrant experience, because the thing is African American Muslims have been here for centuries and, you know, they've been involved in politics, they've been involved in everything. But once again, society doesn't oftentimes see them in the same way. There's this division between, you know, the immigrant Muslim population, the African American population. I think that from the immigrant perspective, which is what I can talk about, the first generation, like my parents' generation, they were just struggling to make ends meet. And they were struggling to make their bills and to educate their children. So for them, politics was very sort of a topic that they were interested in, but they were worried about basic survival. And the next generation, my generation, we are now at a position where we've been educated, we are very much in the fabric of the U.S. society. And we're now saying, no, you know, we're not worried about basic survival, we're worried about our children's survival, what issues are going to affect them, what things will their children need to experience. And so we're able to look ahead, whereas our parents were only able to look at that moment. So I think that you're going to absolutely see more Muslim Americans just kind of stand up. I think more Muslim American women stand up and say, you know, we are, we have issues that now we need to take care of for our children, for our grandchildren, and no one else is going to do this for us. We can't rely on politicians. We have to be the politicians. So I think we're going to absolutely see more of that. Absolutely. And, you know, we've seen a record number of women come to sort of come to Congress and also run for public office over the past couple of years. But Daira, I mean, what is it like for you to see these two Muslim women in Congress? And what do you think their campaigns and your campaign, how much of that had to do with the presidency of Donald Trump? It's funny because I think the increase in women in general running for office sort of was probably inspired by the election of Donald Trump and maybe not just in response to him, but if he can do it, I'm certainly able to do it. I think that where there was some of that as well. And so I watched Ilhan Omar's campaign quite closely and Rashida Tlaib's campaign quite closely, both of them very experienced and very intelligent. And I think that they're a gift to the U.S. House of Representatives. And as they said, they're there to work. And they're there to be unapologetic in the fact that representation matters, as you said. And that representation matters beyond just the visible, but also in terms of bringing diversity of thought. And ability of how you communicate. And they're there to make an impact. And they are. And how are they, as Muslim women, what are they adding to the conversation? We sort of see how them being in Congress will affect the national conversation and how they are shaping narratives and perceptions. But what do you think they are uniquely adding to the conversation that's happening? They both ran on a very progressive agenda and are very similar in that way in, you know, sort of them and, you know, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and sort of these new freshman women who've come in, they all have similar, you know, progressive agendas. But what do they particularly do you both think are adding to the conversation? When I look at them and I see what grabs headlines about what they do, I'm going to be really honest. The thing that I think they bring in all of their wonderfulness and of all of the policies that they support, especially on those on a domestic level, I think they're wonderful. But interestingly enough, it is their views, in my opinion, on foreign policies and how we walk this earth as Americans with the rest of the other countries and the rest of the world. And we saw that with Ilhan Omar, we're seeing that with Rashida Tlaib. And what they're bringing is just to put out an idea around whatever and then letting the rest of the world have that discussion in a way that we don't typically have discussions. And that's really interesting. I think it's very interesting. I actually agree with that. I think that in some part because they were this like other candidate, like they just came out of left field for so many people, they are now sparking conversations and debates that I think we're always in society, but they're doing so unapologetically because people already were kind of seeing them as this like oddity that came in. Just embrace it. And so now they're basically saying, here are these issues we've all been talking about, but you know what, let's talk about it publicly. Let's not play politics with it in the sense of like, you know, hush our mouths and see what, no, let's talk about them. Let's put them out there because you're already talking about me. So if you're already talking about me, let's bring it to the issue that's actually matters. And let's have this conversation because I think that they are not sitting there in any way shape or form, like you're trying to batter views down anybody's throat. They are literally bringing up views and viewpoints that many people share and many people disagree with and letting the national conversation happen, which is so refreshing because too often in politics we have everybody kind of tiptoeing around these issues and nothing gets done and nothing gets changed, but yet the conversation of the conversations continue. So I think it's way more representative of the conversations that are happening at the kitchen table than we've seen in the past. Absolutely. And I feel like this, you both raise a very important point around sort of foreign policy discussions as well. The fact that they themselves are not immigrants, but their parents were or refugees. And the fact that immigrants here in the U.S., they do have ties to other countries, right, from their countries of origin. And it matters to them how U.S. foreign policies conducted in those countries of origin. And I feel like what they're bringing sort of this discussion around foreign policy something is a harbinger of things to come. If we have more, you know, again, American Muslims because they are very, you know, sort of come, they are immigrant heavy. I mean, the demographic is that we will see more discussions around foreign policy, which is very important and interesting to have. Exactly what foreign policy issues they've been involved with is an entirely different show. So guys, that's why I'm going to touch that right now. Yeah. So that we will talk about at another point. And that will also be a very interesting discussion. I did also want to bring up this question of hijab, only because, I mean, this is something that's very intriguing to a lot of Americans, right? It's, and, you know, Shaheen, you have edited an entire volume on hijab and veiling. And I'm wondering what you think of, you know, Ilhan Omar wears the hijab and actually both of them, one wears the hijab, the other doesn't, but both wear their religious identity very openly, very proudly. And what do you think having the hijab there in Congress, as a thing in Congress, how do you think that is going to change people's perceptions about what it represents? I think when I was editing the volume on the anthology on hijab and veiling, one of the things I really thought was so interesting was how women that wore hijab, they were doing it as obviously from a religious perspective, but also very much as a political identity. And I think the fact that we're seeing Ilhan Omar wear her hijab, wear her hijab proudly on the floor of the Congress, that kind of brings the fact that, yeah, there is a political identity to it. But the fact also that Rashida Thalib does not wear hijab is very much also a political identity because that's what I found in this anthology about among people that wear it and don't wear it. There's a reason, that's a conscious choice that people make and they make it for reasons that are important to them based on their own religious beliefs, based on their own identity. And I think that having those two depictions in Congress is very important because it shows that the political identity of Muslim Americans is so diverse in the United States that you cannot just give some sort of like boxed solution for an entire community because it doesn't work. And having that as a visible reminder, I think is really going to help to have much more complicated and complex and nuanced conversations about what religious identity means to Muslim Americans just from a cultural perspective but also from political and religious identity. I think it's really going to open up the conversation and make people have to start to question because no people can't just say, oh, all Muslims do that because they don't, right? They don't. And it's so obvious and many, I think that many people in this country that have very strong opinions on Muslims have never met one. And they've never seen one other than like videos about foreigners, you know? And this, they're not foreigners. These are people that are very much part of the fabric of the U.S. and seeing them on the floor in Congress really brings that home. And I think it's really going to start to shape a lot of conversations. Right. And I also feel like even on like, you know, say CNN or on the media, when you have a Muslim woman who comes in to sort of talk about anything, I think there's also this sort of sense that it has to be a Muslim woman, woman who covers, who wears the hijab because that is the real Muslim woman. And I feel like this is sort of going to sort of, you know, at least sort of take away from just that monolithic narrative and stuff. So that's interesting. And Dara, you wear the hijab and you were on the campaign trail wearing it very proudly. What do you, did you have questions about it from people, well intentioned, well meaning? Yeah, the first image when you talk about it that comes to mind is that early in the campaign, I was featured on the front page of a weekly newspaper, the front page of the paper. And I had a hijab on and there was some political like animation on the picture as well. So it was a very attractive cover in and of itself. But what I take from this whole experience is that now kids all across Western Massachusetts get to see a woman who looks like me running for an office like that. And that says a lot, not only to little girls that look like my kids or your kids or your kids, but to little girls and boys all across the district, they also deserve to see that representation of our entire community is existing and and we deserve to have it. And so yeah, did I get questions? Yes, but mostly the questions tended more to be how much in common are we from a religious perspective? What do you believe? And then once those were diffused, we could keep it moving. I did have anti-Muslim issues on the campaign trail. I was, our campaign received information that there were fliers being mailed throughout the district with depictions of me handwritten with a hijab on an American flag saying, they little bubbles, a little crazy things. But you know, it's so it's there. There's concerns. But for the most part, people really just want to understand who you are, why you're running, and how you can help their lives become better. Absolutely. I mean, I think like your campaign also made international headlines. I mean, there were people, there were newspapers in Pakistan who were covering it as well. Because again, I think, and it really had a huge, I think impact on people there in other Muslim majority countries to see Muslim women running in such large numbers and being represented and being accepted to such a great degree. So that was really wonderful. So also, I mean, there was this recent poll done. I think it was actually last year by the Inter-Parliamentary Union, which is a Geneva-based organization. And they do these rankings every year. And they found that the US ranked 104th in terms of women's representation in politics. And that was below the Sudan and Pakistan and Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq. And they're, you know, this is quite shocking for a lot of people. But and there are many reasons for this perhaps. Part of it is incumbency. Part of it is the fact that there aren't no quotas for women to run for office here in the US. But researchers also found that it has something to do with women here in the US just generally not sort of underestimating their abilities to run for office, especially when compared to men who are, you know, equally credentialed. So what does it, what does it, what will it take for that societal mind shift to change? And how do you think things can improve for women here in the US? I mean, I think that what we're seeing is really this internalized misogyny that is still very prevalent here in the United States. And the fact is we kind of look at other countries, and especially countries that are, you know, less developed in the United States. And we look at them and we have a lot of assumptions about the way they view women and about, you know, their, you know, they've called them misogynists. We, you know, have views on what their rights are. But we do the same thing here and actually to a higher level, I think, because we mask it. We mask it in other reasons. In other countries, women have run for office, you know, have been prime minister, Muslim countries, women have been prime ministers and presidents. Here it still comes down to, well, did that person cry on the campaign trail? Did she smile enough? Did she smile enough? Is she likeable enough? Is she likeable? And these are things that, you know, aren't based on anything like, you know, what the people try to blame religion, but it's not, this is based on culture. And the US culture has long, you know, put women on a lower level and created this imposter syndrome among women that women actually have internalized, that they believe that, you know, they may have the same credentials as a man or more credentials as a man, but they are constantly overthinking, well, am I qualified? Am I not? Can I do this? Can I not? Would men do not? And that is a cultural phenomenon that is taught from a very early age to little girls. And that is something that I think we spend so much time in the US pointing our fingers overseas and look at the way they're doing it, that we are not looking at what we have done to our society of young girls. And I think that when you had blatant misogyny come out in most recent presidential election, when it became just vocalized, because that was always under the, you know, scenario, but nobody ever talked about it. But when it became verbalized, I think it really was like a wake up call to many women because women had to identify, where do I stand on that spectrum? Do I agree with it? Do I not agree with it? If I don't agree with it, then A, why am I not supporting this woman? Or B, why am I not running? And we're seeing a shift now because women were like, absolutely, I should run because this is ridiculous. And so I think once you go and once you see women starting to break free of that and saying, no, I'm going to run, taking that step, then I think society is going to follow because society is going to have to come to terms with why am I not supporting this person if they have all of these credentials? Absolutely. So I think it's a huge shift, but it really comes from an internalized misogyny that we've had forever. Sure. And hopefully that will change. I mean, like again, with the record number of women in Congress right now, hopefully that is going to change that. Or what would you say to that? I'm thinking that we actually started this conversation on social media. Do you remember? Yes. About six weeks ago, there was an article and it was an editorial. And the editorial said the election of these two women is big for Muslims. And I challenged that it really wasn't as much that it was big for Muslims as much as it was big for American women because like you're discussing around the world, Muslim women have led and continue to lead in ways that we have never seen here in the United States. And that was shocking to the people that we engage with on social media, American women who never thought of it that way. And also I think with our identities as Muslims, I'm thinking about my parents again, who converted, but as they attempted to learn the history of Islam, I was told Hazard Ar-Aisha may Allah be pleased with her was a scholar. She was wise and she was a jurist and people trusted her and how there are very strong women who were experienced in scholarship and civic leadership. And that was not to be frowned upon and it was to be embraced and it was expected. And so I didn't have stories of our American counterparts with the same sort of inspiration necessarily. So a lot of the ability that I think of me as a Muslim woman running came from what I was taught as a Muslim history. Well, wonderful. I wish we could continue with this conversation. I've learned so much just listening to both of you and I will be sure to have you both back. And I'm sure there'll be many more topics to discuss around Muslim women in politics. Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. And until next time, this is your host, Mehlaqa Samdani.