 It's been over two years since we first met today's guest. And it became clear very quickly that there was so much more than what we were just talking about. And we have finally been able to make time to sit and talk. Yeah. I would like you all to please meet Leonard me. And by the end of this time, you will be shaking your head and saying, how did it happen that this person is living in our communities. So welcome Leonard. Thank you. Thank you Keith. Oh, it is so wonderful to have you back and people may have remembered you from Pride and Bloom and the Pride Festival and Bethel which we will eventually talk about. But as I had shared with you before we started taping. There's so much that I want to talk to you about that I'd like to just sort of move chronologically through your life and you did what, and then you did what else it. So let's start with. As you can tell already I'm a fan so there we are. So let's start with you grew up in Harlem. I grew up in Harlem in the 60s and 70s. Okay, that was decidedly the time to be there. There was a lot going on. It really was a lot going on. And I grew up in the heart of Harlem I grew up, you know, 133th Street between 7th and 8th Avenue, look that up because it's something different now. But I knew it is 7th and 8th Avenue. And that's where I began that's where that's where my parents brought me home to from Harlem Hospital which is two blocks away two or three blocks away to our small apartment with nine people four rooms nine people. Yeah, there were seven kids in the house and two parents in the affordable apartment, one bathroom by the way. Okay, that takes a real coordinating in and learning how to. And it worked. You know, it worked, you know, my mother had this thing of getting the young ones up earlier, getting them ready, getting them out to school and then the older ones did their thing. So, and it worked, you know, it really, really worked and we were close we had no, we had no choice but to be close we slept to to a bed. So, except for the oldest one who slept in the living room on the sofa sofa is the prize. Yeah, it was the prize so yeah, yeah. So, what was it like being a gay man growing up in Harlem and I understand from some of our previous conversations you had an older brother. Yeah, my also gay who was when I, I look, it's interesting. I don't want to say when I came to when I became aware because I be, I knew for a long long time. Even at a very young age that I enjoyed looking at boys and being with boys. But of course when you're really young. I think you experiment, even at an early, early age you experiment with having a having saying this is your girlfriend is having a girlfriend, you know, you, you, you know, and people pushing in that direction. Because that's for them is normal. So for me, you know, I really, really understood it more by the time I was in intermediate school. Although I did have a girlfriend. Because I did, I really did like girls at the same time, and I think a lot of us go a lot of people go through that male or female or them or they I think we all go through liking everything, you know where we're young where we're just looking for somebody nice somebody we like to be around. I was gonna say, I think, I think that's the determining factor is what is out here. What is it that is available to me. What does that feel trying it on seeing if it fits and then moving on. Yeah, it's, you know, it, you know, you know, of course, I had an older brother who was in that day and age for all intents and purposes out in the 70s my mother, my parents knew the family knew. Well, I didn't have the coming out thing on my mind. That was never something that that I cared for that I thought was a part of me. I just figure, I'll go my way and you accept me as I am. I bring home a guy I bring home a guy that's just what it is if I bring home a girl I bring home a girl that's just what it is. Don't ask me questions just just enjoy who I'm with, like I do. I mean I've always felt that way. So I never had I don't have a coming out story. That's, that's I don't have that I was just out who and out to me is be who you are. It's okay. So, but you know, being gay at knowing that you are gay and knowing that you're a dancer in Harlem in the 60s and 70s as a male is not the easiest thing to do. And I didn't know this until I effectively really delved into dance. I grew up watching you know Fred Astaire bull jangles all that on TV and it never occurred to me that I could be a dancer ever ever until I was in the sixth grade. And we had assembly every Friday. And I went to an assembly and my best friend Kenneth and I are running around carrying on carrying on, and then you know we're playing around doing things we shouldn't do because we're supposed to be in school, but it's, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not in class. We're playing around carrying on. So we sit in the assembly and the lights go out, you know, all the, and then they make an announcement that there's just going to be some dance and we're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then these young black dancers from an intermediate school, the lights come up and they hit the stage. And I tell you, that's the very moment I said to myself, that's what I want to do. That's all it was. It was that simple. And then I expressed to my sixth grade teacher my interest Mrs Evans, and she was all for it. And then she told me how she danced. Right, she never said a word until no one knew this was like mid year, no one knew. And then she told me she had a niece in the high school performing arts. Yeah. And so I so she so I said to her I want to go to that intermediate school, where they have that that we just that we saw. She said great. She introduced us to live theater. She took me to she took the class to see Stephanie Mills in the ways. I had never been told by anything I heard about it but in my mind Broadway was for the elite, really for white people for the elite this that the other. Later on that year she took up to see Alvin Ailey. So she introduced me to theater and to you know all of this. And she really, you know, and she even brought her niece in to talk to us about dance. And she had us put on our own version of the widths. Where I was she said you're going to be the scarecrow. She did that and it was so much fun. But you know I still, I just, I just wanted to be one of those kids I had seen in my assembly so I went to that high, I went to that intermediate school. Okay, now, how did you get into the intermediate school did you need to audition, or you just applied. So it's a public school. So basically they're looking for you to go to a school closest to your home at that point. That's how things when you went to a school in your neighborhood. This was literally two blocks, a block away from my home. So both schools were. So I went to that is 136 is where I went and the other school was PS 92. I joined Mrs. Evans, Mrs. Evans, Mrs. Elaine see Smith is dance program. Miss Evans was my sixth grade teacher. And Miss Elaine see Smith I joined her dance program, and the two years I danced. And once I started dancing they labeled me the dance boy. I was the only boy who would dance. I was the only boy who even venture to put on a pair of tights when I had to. I was thinking of some of the names that we all got called growing up. Yeah, I was gonna say dance boy. I would have said yes to that one as well. Yeah, I said yes to that one, but the others I had. It's the only time I remember having a fight in school. Because I was in the eighth grade now. Believe it or not, eventually, all of that stopped because nothing I could care less what people call me. I wanted to dance and I loved it. I could care less. So by the time I got into the eighth grade, I had convinced some kids from this boys from the sixth grade to join the dance program. So three other boys joined the dance program so they were near underneath me. So all of the bullying all of the name calling stopped and it wasn't bullying is more name calling. It all stopped except for one guy Mac, who literally hit me and called me a name and so we fought. And I never fought and I actually won. I told the brothers to fight. So I actually I would say that's the one flight I really had and I actually won. And from that day on he protected me. And so the whole thing. So I skidded through the rest of the year, my eighth grade as the dance boy, proud. Everybody supported me in and out of school and that's rare. That's rare. That's my experience and that's rare. And I think it's because you couldn't determine I think most people you just saw that. At the same time, my brother's lover, Kevin Hunt was teaching at Bernice Johnson's in Queens, but I was too young to get on the subway my mom wouldn't allow me to take the subway. So my brother, God rest his soul he's deceased now. He gave up his he would come pick me up on Saturday mornings and take me out to Queens. And then he'd come pick me up. But there was there was a catch 22 to this after a few months he said, you know where to go. You know how to get there. Here are your instructions and you're not to tell mommy that I'm letting you go on your own. He would come and pick me up. Take me to the subway, give me two dimes because phone calls were a dime back then. When I got to Queens, he expected me to be there at a certain time. I had to call him before I started dancing. And then I had to call him before I came home, and he would pick me up and take me back home. And that's how I started. And they gave me a full scholarship because we were poor. And I told my mother I wanted to dance she said you can do whatever you you can dance all you want I can't afford it. I don't have that I don't have that kind I don't have any money. Basically what she said was I don't have any money. You know, so, and they gave me a scholarship. And I was gonna say so this is the eighth grade. This is the this is the eighth grade. This is the seventh and eighth grade. Yeah. Okay, and what I'm jumping at here as I interrupt to do is where did you go to high school. I went to. Yeah, to the high school of performing arts the actual fame school. I was gonna say we, for those of us who saw fame, you went through the audition process. Absolutely. Absolutely. Was it an accurate portrayal. Yeah, except for it was over a few days. Because when you had to go in, you had to take class. You had to take a ballet class, you had to take a modern class, then you had to come back. And then you have to do a short piece. So it was like a three day thing for each student. And your great you had to your great average had to be 75 or above. Okay, so that's like a C plus kind of above. Yep. And you're, if you went into ninth, if you went into the ninth grade back then, that was probation. You had a year because they would ask they would ask you to leave if you weren't doing well and send you to another school in your 10th year. I was gonna say, I have a vague recollection of the original movie version, not the series version of one of the performers in the dance company. They're approaching her saying, okay, you're just not making it. So she, so she switched to theater, but there we go. Yeah. Okay, so what was your experience like. Wonderful. I was gonna say because it was. Okay, here's the crazy part. Okay, go. They got the heart and soul right of the of the movie. They got it right. The feeling. Yeah, that the movie portrays with young people being artists they got it right. We, you know, that what that high and that high school we had. I have more freedom at the high school student than anybody else I knew. It was on us. It was like at the front door there was a woman added. So you go through the front doors. You go up a few you walk in you go up a few steps there was another set of doors. But before those doors was where the stairs to the classroom and the gatekeeper sat behind the second set of doors. So, people were sneaking in and out you could slide in and out and set the other. We used to. I mean, it was you. The first thing they told you was, you're responsible. This, this is your art form. This is what you say you want. We expect you to be responsible to get here and do what you need to do. We are not going to police you to get into this classroom. You want to take dance class you want to take music you want to take drama, then you get here on time ready to go. When the class started at 820. Most of us were in the building at eight o'clock, ready to go in a dance class stretching warming up talking laughing, ready to go. You know, and they also said to said to you, and all of you, anybody who's just starting like this is your beginning, you're late. Age wise you're late. So we have to do 10 years of work and 10 to 12 years of work in the next four years to get you ready. You know, and they put it on you. They put it on us as young students, you know, and we loved it. Okay. I have a myriad of questions but I want to start with how competitive, did it feel when you were in class, or was there more of a supportive collaborative, you know, you and I are both in the same class. Did both of us succeed or I can't, or is it a, I need to do better than you are more of the second. Okay, more of the, like the latter of what you said is we were it was more camaraderie anything else. Okay, of course, the nature of the beast is that, you know, you're, if this person is doing five turns you want to try and do six, you know, but it was very friendly and very like, let me help you let me see if I can help me figure out how to do this. You know what I mean. And then we grew up that we grew up, you know, in there because we were together for four years. I mean your class you move together for four years and we were just supportive of each other and we really like we most of us liked each other. And if not we all got along at least. You know, going across the floor it was competition it was competition to dance just to do your best at the dancer as an individual dance but I also think that it's more about the individual in that respect, because there were people who were competitive. I never felt I can remember I never ever felt like I needed to compete with anybody because I always believe we were all individual, and we all brought something different to it and I always thought that. The thing with people wasn't because for me, that meant I spent too much time thinking about what you were doing. I just needed to focus on what I was doing and get better as quickly as I could. And I'm going to circle back to a question that I will be asking probably for, you know, each clearly defined parts of your life. You were in high school that's the time when we're learning a great deal about ourselves are sexual orientation gender identities, all of that. Yeah, we have this perception that somehow being part of the performing arts. It's easier or it's more accepting. What was your experience like being a male dancer of color at the high school for the performing arts. Okay. Yes and no. What I found interesting being at the high school performing arts as a person of color was that we had no teachers of color. When I was there, we had no teachers of color. I'm stunned, but okay. No, not even academically. And we're talking seven, we're talking the 70s. Not even academically. The people of color were your typical, unfortunately, shady Sadie, her name the lunchroom lady was really named Sadie just like the movie. Lillian was the guard was the guard at the school entrance, the janitor. And I think around my junior year Mr bland came in he was a black man I don't know what he taught. He didn't teach me, but and he taught something in the theater but I don't know which department but I know he was there. That was it. Everybody else was white the entire the entire teaching staff, my entire teaching staff at performing arts was white being but now being gay and school back in the 70s wasn't like it is now, you couldn't. But in the dance school I was in a lot of people who are openly gay. So there was this. Now, when I first went to high school I had a high school sweetheart. He and I also went to the same dance school and we went to, we went to Bernie's Johnson's and we went to performing arts. I was in love with her. Unfortunately for her. Unfortunately for me, I met a guy who stole my heart. So I had to figure this one out. And eventually that's, I knew that's where I was going. Not eventually I knew that was the pull, the ultimate pull for me. And I just accepted it and went with it. And I had a glorious four year relationship with him. You know, he was much older so we'll leave that alone. And so being gay in the dance world, there is, there's more acceptance now than there ever was like everywhere else in the world. But back then there were you were gay but you just moved on. You didn't. You had, you had, you, the guys were all gay in a little, we did everything outside of the studio and this and the other or the day, you know, you didn't really do all of that in the inside that world. Although they quietly accept, they quietly accepted you and I always said who wants to be accepted. You know, I don't want to be accepted. I don't, I just want you to leave me alone and just go about your business. You know, and I don't want to be tolerated who who in the hell wants to be tolerated, not I, I think that's offensive. So there's this sort of duality and I think it still exists in some places in the dance world. There are guys that are and women and them and they that are not completely out. Although it's the art world. The art world has some, you know, everybody thinks the art world is not racist. Well, let me put it to you this way when I was in high school. They steered all the black kids to modern dance to be when you got to this when you were a sophomore you got to split. And you can choose whether you want to be in the ballet world or the modern dance world. They steered all the black kids towards modern dance. And all of them they even told girls, you'll never be able to dance because of because of because of your body is great but you have a big but you'll never be able to dance. And it's only been recently that there is finally a prima ballerina. Everybody should stop and say, isn't what's wrong with that. Everybody should stop and say, how long has this been happening and only now, everybody should stop and say that. What's wrong with the fact that one one and they're still on. They're still for lack of better terms, the token. So everybody should really stop and think about that. You know, and I do all the time again, you know, and they're still only one after all this time now, they're still they only seen room for one. So high school of the performing arts is four years. Yes, it is. So in your senior year, you have to start thinking about. Okay, exactly. I'm going to graduate. What happens next. Well, my, my, my thought stream was, I have spent four years dancing every day of my life I dance pretty much seven days a week. Because when I wasn't in dance school during the week two days a week I was when I wasn't in high school dancing two days a week I was in Queens and on the weekend Saturday and Sunday. I was in Queens dancing. So I did. And if I wasn't dancing, I danced with small companies at well by the end of my sophomore year I was dancing with like kinetic energy and the Maffata dance company. I was dancing with small companies so I was dancing constantly. And my only thought was if I, my real thought, my first and only thought was, I spent all of this time studying to be a dancer, wanting to be a professional dancer trying to get a job as a dancer. I want a job after I graduate, I want a job, but the audition, a lot of the auditions took place when you were in class in school. And my mother was adamant that I couldn't do that. That she did not want me to do that she wanted me to finish school she didn't want anything to distract me from that she said you have to finish high school with nothing else. Because from there you can go to college whenever you want and instead any other. But most of the auditions happen for adults they happen during the week, the dinner or your mother has to, you know, you have to take your parents with you or this that and the other. My mother couldn't afford to do that she didn't have the time. I have a question. You're at a school that specializes in the performing arts. They didn't have something built into their curriculum. They did not want no, because I'm thinking of, you know, in in the fashion design industry. They have student shows where the major fashion fashion houses come in and look at the work that's being produced. They didn't create similar platforms for you. Not in my time. I mean, I have friends who cut class to go to the early audition, but if it was found out in school they got in big trouble. So how did you end up audition. Well, in my senior year in high school, Jerry Hulahan, who was a former dancer with law, came to high school came to my high school and she started teaching and she became a member of the staff. And I'll never forget it. It was my 17th birthday because I graduated a year early. It was my 17th birthday and we were in class and I think that was like a Wednesday. And she said after class she said, you know, it's the end because that. So let me give you a little bit of schedule. When you first start in your ninth, when you're ninth grade and 10th grade you have your dance classes in the morning, and your academics in the afternoon, and then it flips. You have your academics, when you're an 11th and 12th grade you have your academics in the morning and your dance classes in the afternoon, and that facilitates you being able to stay after school if you're doing some kind of performance and going right into that and practicing and all of that. So after this class I was in my senior year. So after my afternoon class, my afternoon modern dance class, she pulled me to the side and we were talking she said so you know you look amazing today. I mean you always look good, you know she prefaced it was always the good idea. But today you look at what's going on with you. I said well, my birthday she said really she's a happy birthday you know all of a sudden she said so what are you doing after school I said well. You mean after I graduate she said yeah I said well, I'd like to get to I'd like to dance but I'm going to have to go to college because I don't have anything. I don't you know coming up so I'm just going to go to college and she said well, would you would you go to an audition. I said, sure. She said okay so she set it up that I could go on a Saturday. So one of those kids met moments of exactly here is here in the kicker. I go down to our studio on 18th Street. And you know that was the loft days he had a studio in his loft, you know, it's a Saturday afternoon. And I'm thinking it's an audition. So I'm thinking there's going to be a cattle call or it was just me. I'm there like 20 minutes early and I'm warming up, and I'm waiting for the others to come and Laura comes out to introduce himself he said, then almost all of the other dancers are there. I have no idea why the whole company was there. And he says, Okay, let's start. You ready I said yeah. So I'm looking around he says no it's just you. And I audition for about an hour and a half just me by myself. And I, when we finished, I was like, Well, that was fun, you know, and I said thank you to set me up and he said, Well, I want you to come back. I want to see you again. So I said, Well, I'm in school and so he held he got me back on the Saturday again. This time there were nine other men. They were they were all dancing and we auditioned together. And he said, Well, I want to take you into the company and I was in shock. But I'm the kind of person that I just kind of, I'm low-key when stuff like that happens. So I was like, that's great. He said, So can you leave school early I said no. I don't think so but I'll ask an answer to your previous question that ties into what you said about them setting up programs and stuff for you. There are things that they do like I had to perform and during my senior year I had performances at the museums and stuff like that. And then I have a senior project that you have to do and it's a dance concert that you have to do it's a full two hour concert that you have to do. And when I asked if I could get out early if I could, you know, because I had all my grades and everything was there. If I could, you know, graduate early. Dean of dance that absolutely not even though you had this phenomenal offer from a major dance company. She said absolutely not that is not permissible you have you have things to fulfill at the end of the year, which in a way was good. It taught me something. It taught me that you have to fulfill whatever you start. I didn't like that at the time but looking back I realized, you know, he was sort of right I need, I made, I'm in school this is the commitment I've made I've been rehearsing for this program. I've been rehearsing for that we started rehearsals for this thing. I'm in all these ballets and all the, I need to, I need to fulfill this. So I went to Laura I cannot graduate he said okay, so I started rehearsing on the weekends with Laura. And on the day I graduated. Did my performances than the other. The next day we had graduating ceremony. I gave my mom and my sister my cap and gown I took my dance bag and left for rehearsal. That was June 13. You performed with that company for how many years. Right off the back of five years, and that was a world you said you wanted to ask about touring. Yes, ask. I was going to say, because I remember just doing brief little things within the state of Vermont and the bags and and the rush, and that you know, your dressing rooms were not glamorous. At times it was the closet at the end of the hallway and, you know, the only your only space was truly when you were on stage and performing. Yes. Well as luck would have it, or whatever you the divine whatever, whatever you believe in the divine I call it a divine works for me. I graduated in June, in July, I went on tour the first place I went to was Jacobs pillow of all the places I'm performing in Jacobs pillow, never been there before ever barely knew about it, honestly. So I read up about it set me up I said, oh wow this has amazing history so everybody from Alvin to, you know, Martha Graham to Dennis to you know all of them there. It's amazing history. I'm part of it I'm performing here. Okay, so, so that happens for I think about a week and a half. Come back home we rehearsal summer. In the middle of this. I learned that I have to go to Europe. Now what I didn't tell you was, they never told Laura I was 17. I was 18. And then when he asked me finally I said yes, this is before I knew, you know, I'm 18 and I kept going. I said a graduate from high school, you know, I had to go back and tell him that I was 17, which meant I needed a guardian to go to Europe. So, the road manager agreed to be my guardian. Well to sign on as my guardian and they left me alone after that which was great. August. Little Lenny from Hollywood. Who had only been to Fort Jervis. Connecticut because I was a fresh air fun kid and that's where I went as a fresh air fun kid. Charleston, South Carolina because that's where my family was. And now, oh, that's not true and the Berkshire's that's not true because when I was at BJs when I was I skipped over this sorry when I was at the school in Queens, I became part of the junior company, and we actually went to St. Martin's to perform when I was at the end of my 90 year of high school. So I had been there that's the one place I had been. I was now in September I went on the road for six weeks. Now, nobody's going to believe this but I had no idea this is what dance meant. I had no idea that dance meant touring and traveling because all I know is I wanted to be on stage performing that was my real focus. I was that naive I was that just blank on any ongoing on traveling and touring and what that meant and this that any other. So I quickly got it together, and I left the tour in September. I stepped off the plane eight and a half hours later and my foot stepped on Romanian soil and that entire tour. I was pretty much in awe of where I was. I was in Romania, Portugal, Ireland, East Germany at the time. So we went to check by Charlie to get there is any other. Her key is some bull and I'm. I tried to take it all in. Okay, you're on an international tour. How were you received in all of these different countries, all of these different cultures where you're performing, because some of those have some very rigid classical ballet traditions. You're performing modern dance, which has to be a bit of a challenge to their their cultural consciousness. When you go onto the website I want you to look at a piece I have on it called cavalcade. Yes, that's the works we were doing. So there was this. And back then they called it contemporary modern dance because there was a heavy thread of ballet through it. So people loved it. They are you kidding they loved it. Okay, I love performing that way. Because it was law has this beautiful mixture of ballet and different types of modern limones, a little bit, a little bit of Ram, a little bit of this and then it's a little bit of and it's law, and it's a lot of law. And it's a lot of it, we I call I know him as law, of course, from working with him, the law lubricant company which is still going. He just had this way of using people and patterns and music and making an asking you to move that was just you felt everything you had learned had come full circle and you could use it all. I, I'm going to make a very fast transition here because you, you've just started touching into some of the areas that I really wanted to ask about it's, you're on the street in Manhattan, and somebody might come up and introduce themselves to you. And that might have been. Yeah, that was Mr Alvin Ailey. This is the weirdest thing for me. It's really to this day it sort of takes my breath away it takes me back. I had let Lauren know that I was going to be leaving the company in six months. And that was in December we had come back off this great tour of France, we were in Alger for six weeks where he created the now famous duet that the male duet from 622 and all of that. So, and I came back and I said it's time to move on. You've been here five years. You're now in your twenties you want to do something else. I was in the area where I was going, none whatsoever. So, I don't know why I was in the area but this is when Alvin, the company was in the theater district, they used to rehearse on the men in the men's golf. The rehearsal spirit building. And I was walking across towards so I must have been going to Ali for a class or something I think, because I was walking across America 7th Avenue, and Alvin was coming at me and I was like, this is Alvin Ailey. And he walked right up to me. And he started talking to me like Leonard and I said, Mr. Ali, and I you know you don't want to say to him, I didn't want to say, I'm surprised even know who I am. You know, because I had never met him before really. And he said I understand you're leaving Lars company where you are you would you be interested in joining my company. And I was like, absolutely. I need you to come to the audition. And I went, okay. The auditions were coming out in a few months I hadn't left lar yet. The audition was coming up in June it was this was April it was a beautiful day in April. The audition we say he gave me the information I we stayed in black loose contact so I could make it I went to the audition. And I was in. Alvin has this incredible reputation for his creative process, you know sort of locking himself in a room and just working through things. And then, there have been multiple stories about what it was like to be a member of the company and working directly with Alvin some people had to strive it is inspiring some challenging some saying it varied. When I want to know what did it feel like to work with Alvin Haley. I want to say to one word fabulous. When you are working with someone like that. Of that magnitude in the world that you are in and that you're you're aspiring to be in and to grow in and to grow up in. And you're in a room with this person. It's all of those things. It's challenging. It can be a little bit daunting. It can be extremely exciting. And you can't wait to see what happens. But yeah, I mean, it's, you're in front of for lack of better terms. Alvin, Ali. Okay, and then after Alvin Ali, you were still part of the company with Judith Jonathan. I don't know. I don't know if you know what I resigned. After two years I resigned from it. Well, no, yes, you told me that but. And then I went back to law and then okay for two years and then I went back to Ali under Judy. Right. Yeah. Okay, so Judith is formidable in herself. She, her very presence commands the stage was that a similar experience to working with Alvin. Alvin was yes and no, because understand, understand this and she may not like me saying this, but she learned that that was her mentor. Right. So she got a lot of that from him. Okay. But Alvin was Alvin was the kind of director that you would see agreed be in, I mean, I'm going to, this is a little the difference between the two, but yes, they are both formidable. And Alvin was the kind of there that we'd be in Detroit, and we'd be going somewhere and Alvin would be sitting on the street corner talking to the bums, talking to the what what we consider bums. Right. Bad terminology Lenny, but bums that you know what we colloquialisms there. And the thing we love the most is that that night in the theater they would come up and get their tickets and be sitting in there like fifth row orchestra. They would have never six of them sitting in the orchestra watching Ali, because Alvin gave them premium VIP tickets. That was Alvin Alvin was out there. He was like, he was like this with people like you're mixing dough. He was always out and he would always tell us, talk to people get out to get up. Judy had a slightly more different generational approach. You know that's Judy wanted more mystery behind you. Like, I remember once I used to always go if I wasn't performing or if I only had the first ballet, I would go sit in the audience, because I like to learn from my other for my peers. And she said, you know, you can't do that you have to be discreet, you have to keep the mystery. I said, I'm in the back of the theater and squeeze in at the last minute, I need to see what I'm performing. And that keeps it fresh for me that I when I watch them I learn how to, I'm hopefully getting better at performing these are my peers who I admire. I want to get, you know, so that was the sort of that's the way I could describe the difference but they were both. Alvin is a Alvin was a huge quiet presence. He was very like, you know, he, you know, he would say things like, you know, you need to really do that better. And I know you can. So next time do that better, and just move on. And Judy would be Judy had a different approach, you know, so it was, I mean, but both of them are just amazed they were both amazing to work with and for. And I don't say that just because I say that, because they were. I left the company the first time it had nothing to do with them. Either of them, I him I should say, because I love working for him I love being in the company. I love being helping with Judy but it was at a certain point, you know, accumulative, he accumulatively I've been there at 10 years. I was getting older, and it was time to move on and so I laughed, you know, I just one day I just said I'm done. I'm going to make a really quick transition because I'm being very conscious of time because I love talking with you about dance but I also want to talk with you about the other part of your creativity. And that's your writing. Okay, you, you wrote your first book. So that the little Lenny from Harlem from Harlem. What was the inspiration for that. In between. For six months while I was dancing in 1990. I took a break. And I went to Paris and Amsterdam. And while I was there. For some reason started just chronicling my life on paper. And what I thank you. Yeah. And I realize, you know, certain things and I did a small version of it. And I've, you know, wrote it for six months and I put it to the side. What I remember, I never ever envisioned myself as a writer of anything. When I started touring. I never really was a letter writer as a kid I never had a pen pal back in the pen pal days. I never did any of that I was wasn't one to sit and write poems. But while I was touring our right letters to my mom and one of my nephews and postcards, and I loved it. And I loved it. And somehow those started evolving into poems that I wrote. And that started got me to writing in general. And so when I stopped dancing, I picked up my synopsis of my life and started writing it when I was living in Texas and started rewriting it and flushing it out. And then I put it away again. And then when I moved to Vermont. I wrote it. I just pulled it out and started writing it. It served a purpose. The purpose was, could I do this that I like doing it more than like was I having fun doing this. And I had fun writing it. Now, I, I understand that it's not currently available. But there may be a reason why it's not currently available. I am going to go back now, as I've written more things, and hopefully clean it up and make it sharper and better for people to an easier for people to read. That's so I have something to look forward to. Yes, and when I do I will, you will get a copy directly from me. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, but that's not the only thing you've written you published a novel called sweet gum. Yes, which, which has an unusual premise to it. Could you talk to us about sweet gum. Yeah, and how that came into being. Well, sweet gum and Ileana, which is my new book, we're going to get to that. We have both came to me while I was asleep. And I, I usually have a pad or something and I just jot notes down or now I use my cell phone and I jot notes down quickly. And with sweet gum, the premise of sweet gum is a potential slave master and the slave they fall in love to men. I wanted to discuss homosexuality homosexual love in a time period where no one, everybody pretends like it wasn't it didn't exist in America. And so researching it's hard as hell to find any information because nobody's ever written about it. There were things that slave masters did to make their male slaves subservient, and they did them regularly. So when you do that regularly. I know there's more going on than just you making someone subservient. There's something you like about it. And to explore how would this work in the heart of like slavery. How would it work. How could they ever find a way to be together. Would it be shunned upon what how would people react. And so the stories built around that. And I'm happy to say that somehow at the end of it they find a way to be together. I'm happy to give that away in case you haven't read the book. Well, I was going to say, I am part way through the book. So please, please don't put a spoiler in there. But one of the things that I truly appreciated about how the story is crafted is you take the time to to describe an encounter or relationship between the two. And then how it's perceived by the mother of the slave, and the implications of if this happens, then this is how my children or I will be protected, or how they will be taken away from me, and then from the potential, the future master's parents perspective of no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you have to be the master. This is the role. So I, and I have not completed it, but I truly appreciated that you give me more than just a blank narrative, you try to give me the substance behind the narrative. Thank you. Because that's what I was going for. You know, go ahead, please. Well, no, I was going to say, and then moving on to Ileana. Well, this, I was going to say, that's a story that happens in World War two. And it's from the perspective of a young girl who grows up a young biracial girl, that's all. Who grows up in the belly of war, whose experiences are teenage years or early teenage years in the belly of war. Yeah. And am I going to be encountering the, the same type of narrative where there's an experience and then you're, there will be more description of what's behind the, the narrative, the sort of nuances, the cultural implications. You're, yeah, but it's from a different standpoint because remember we're in the middle of Naziism at this point. Well, no, no, I get that. Yeah. Yeah, but it's really from, it's really what she, what she's learning. She's learning in all of this in the middle of all of this craziness around this, a teen, a young girl who starts out at this is 12 and leaves and it's over by the time she's 16. Well, a portion of it is over by. She's 16. She learns of loves, good, abusive, controlling, forced, mutual, gay, straight. She learns she has no choice but to learn familial love. She has no choice. This is, she learns this, how she learns that family is more than just your born family out of need out of out of need out of one out of necessity. She grows up through this, and this has an effect on her. You know that last four lifetime one of the things I say in the book is that I'll give this away war stop, not end. Oh, I like that. So this is something that she has to she she processes for the rest of her life for most of her life, until she finally faces it pretty much. And, and Iliana is available now, is that correct. Yeah, and, and we will put up your personal and that's the cover. My husband does my covers. And we thank him for it. Okay, so we will put up your website because as much as possible. We like to ensure that the author is the one benefiting by the sales. Yes, go to the website and as a lake and you can go right to where you need to go to get it. And that's also because there was like the list with Amazon and they did something weird. And the best way to get to where I need you to get directly to the book is through my website with my lake it takes you right there. It's an ebooks or it's in paperback, and it's made to order so you order it, and you get it three to four days late. Is the sweet gum still available. Yeah, he comes at a discounted price right now. It's like sweet gum has been out for four years. So it's like they took 71% off and it's 275 you can get the book now and just any other cell. Now, I could access that through your website as well. Yes. Yes. Okay. In my website, you'll see I have videos on my website and all that so go and hopefully you'll go and experience and enjoy and like. And the answer is, yes, I have. Thank you. Thank you. Are there more books that may be forthcoming. Absolutely. I'm working on the next one. I had, I had this period of where I just wrote different stories, and I put them away. And usually I find that I don't. I don't subscribe to a writing style, but I find that what I do is I write these stories, and I get them out and they're like 30 to 40 pages. And then I have to go back and the characters start flushing themselves out and their background and their histories and how they really intertwine. They start connecting and I like that process. That's the fun process to see where those characters take you. I don't know where things are going to end up. I have no idea. I am not one of those people that has a beginning and middle and an end until I get, I know that I need that. I don't know what that I have no perceived notions of what that's going to look like for anything I write, I realize. And I like that they sort of, they're real to me, you know, for lack of better terms, they're real to me and they sort of, and it's all fiction but they're real fiction to me. And I like that. And they just sort of come to me and that's the fun part. And that's what I needed to see if I liked I didn't know if I'd like writing because writing is somewhat solitary. And I come from a background of community arts, pretty much where you're with other people all the time and you're doing this and you know you when you're dancing it's not like you're not in a vacuum. So, though, is that you're also not in a vacuum because at some point you have to come out to seek advice, editing everything you have to people somebody to read it and say, let's make any sense to you, you know, you have to. So you, you can only be in that vacuum but for so long anyway. And then you have to come out of it, but it's fun. It's most of all for me. It's fun. I always, you know, people are with people that doesn't make you happy is that happiness is great. I mean, fun being happy. And if you could do that, then you know life is going to be good for you until you're no longer here. You know, and now I have, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And with that. Thank you for sharing the fun with us. I look forward to the next book. And being able to come back and interview or coming back for next year's Pride festival so we can talk about what you're doing in Bethel. Absolutely. And I'm going to go back on the website and watch the dance videos again. Yeah. Some of them are old. So, you know, but you'll see there's a quartet and there's me and you'll I think you'll notice who I am. Yes, I did notice who you were. So, thank you.