 Okay, so we'll get started. Hello everyone, good evening. Thank you for joining us on this event about restorative justice in Nova Scotia. My name is Allison and I'm a third-year student at the Schulz School of Law and president of the Dalhousie Criminal Law Students Association and we bring you this event in part of the Criminal Justice Coalition this evening. Before introducing our panelists, I want to begin by acknowledging that this event comes to you from Big Maki, the ancestral and unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people. This territory is covered by the Trees of Peace and Friendship which the Mi'kmaq, Molostowig, and Pasamaquati people signed with the British Crown in 1726 and these treaties did not deal with the surrender of land and resources but in fact recognized Mi'kmaq-Molostowig title and established the rules for what was to be an ongoing relationship between nations. I also want to recognize the over 400-year history of communities of African descent in Nova Scotia and the 52 African Nova Scotian communities throughout the region today. Our panelists this evening are Professor Jennifer Llewellyn and Barbara Miller. If you have questions throughout the presentation, we invite you just to use the Q&A box at the bottom of the screen and we'll do our best to address them during the Q&A session. Now to introduce our panelists. First is Professor Jennifer Llewellyn who is the Chair in Restorative Justice and Director of the Restorative Research Innovation and Education Lab at the Shulks School of Law. Her teaching and research is focused in the areas of relational theory, restorative justice, truth commissions, peace building, international and domestic human rights law, public law, and Canadian constitutional law. Professor Llewellyn has advised and supported governments and GOs and communities on the implementation of restorative approach. Next we have Barbara Miller who is the Executive Director of the Community Justice Society of Halifax which is the agency that delivers Nova Scotia's Provincial Restorative Justice Program in the region. Barbara has spent over three decades working in the nonprofit sector with the primary focused on enhancing life for children, youth and families. Barbara has worked in various early roles in direct service delivery before moving into strategic leadership roles such as Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. In these roles she has served thousands of clients but hundreds of staff and worked with multiple government departments and community agencies. Thank you Professor Llewellyn and Barbara for giving us your time this evening. And to start us off Professor Llewellyn if you might provide some explanation as to what the restorative justice practices and theories are and why we might find them desirable in criminal law. Sure thanks very much Al. You can call me Jennifer. That would be great and Barbara knows she can call me Jennifer. So I thought I might share my screen because I was going to do a little bit of the framing up and lifting for Barbara and I so that we can create the space for her to talk about the work that Community Justice Society does and restorative justice in Nova Scotia and then have a bit of a conversation. So I'm going to share my screen hopefully maybe successfully. Let's hope. No no barely I'm not going to. Yes we can see it. Can you see do you just see zoom or so do you see my umbrella concept. Oh you do. I do not. Fascinating. It's not there we go. I do see it. Yeah great so I'll start from the beginning. Now you can see the first slide. Great thanks. So I guess first I wanted to talk about what a restorative approach in Nova Scotia is by way of kind of explaining to you what is restorative justice in sort of theory and in its practice because it's not perhaps as narrow as people think in terms of just describing it as a particular process or practice. So just to give you some of the touch points and impacts and applications of a restorative approach more broadly in Nova Scotia so that we have a chance to sort of think of the scope of what we're talking about. We've seen restorative justice enacted in this province and I'll talk a little bit more about this in across both youth and adult criminal justice for about 20 just over over 20 years now in full implementation. Of course we're going to hear more about that in the work of the Community Justice Society and that Barb is is that is leading and doing in the province. We've seen approaches within corrections not only Waterville which is the youth facility correctional facility here but but also several applications in both community corrections. So after people or in those cases where people aren't institutionalized or applications in other institutions we have seen the application of a restorative approach in schools here at its height there are 150 schools taking a restorative approach in a variety of ways from the office to the classroom to the playground and everywhere in between. We've had a process ongoing in parts of the province that that's been taking a restorative approach to think about senior safety in communities and particularly to respond where seniors experience abuse or harm in their communities and and that's being led by some of the senior safety officers in the province that work alongside the RCMP. Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission was one of the first statutory human rights bodies to take a restorative approach and this sort of led the way that's been adopted by other human rights agencies in in fuller in part perhaps most notably in the Northwest Territories. We've certainly seen the application in conjunction with human rights complaints and also beyond that in terms of addressing workplace conflict or inclusion issues including at the Halifax Fire Community Services and with Public Service Commission. The Barrister Society has explored the application and use of a restorative approach in thinking about legal regulation both in terms of responding to the needs of lawyers within that institution and when complaints are brought against legal counsel. We've also seen a restorative approach at DAL in a variety of ways including in our security services who've transformed what public safety looks and feels like on the campus but perhaps some of you'll be most familiar with that in its in its most infamous application at the Faculty of Dentistry and we recently had the first public inquiry to take a restorative approach in the restorative public inquiry for the home for colored children and if you want to read and think more about what that application might look like I'm happy to provide you that information that at the end of the session. So the restorative justice program in Nova Scotia then thinks about restorative justice connected with and alongside the criminal justice system and that's where we're going to focus much of our conversation today. That program started in 1999. It actually piloted started its planning and organization in 97 and then piloted in 99 and four communities across the province. It was rolled out fully across the province in 2001 and that means that most young people were eligible and eligible at various points in their journey in connection with the criminal justice system either pre-charge post-charge after before sentencing in correctional facilities and via victim services and that was accessible for young people across the province only because we were able to work with a robust set of community-based partners who had many of whom had previously been involved in the alternative measure societies and then transformed themselves to provide community leadership to offer restorative justice and hence we got Barb's organization and a range of others across the province. In 2006 we started to think about the example that Nova Scotia was offering nationally and internationally and institutionalizing restorative justice alongside the criminal justice system and undertook a fairly significant research project that was hosted here at the law school that brought community and government together to think about how to expand upon that knowledge and success. That's when we started to get the senior safety project along with policing and and then pilots of the adult RJ program which was always sort of contemplated in the plans from the beginning but took us a little bit to feel that we were ready and new enough to roll that out and in 2016 we saw the rollout of adult restorative justice available at all the spectrums of the of the criminal justice process and in 2017 because we've had this kind of development and no chance to sort of do stock taking and to integrate the protocols so that there wasn't one for young people and one for adults we undertook a renewal process that I was the was the chair of and that involved lots of the partners who participated in restorative justice to really start to plan for the next 20 years of restorative justice in Nova Scotia and to think about how we could be clear about the intention that it would be a justice pathway so not just an off ramp from the criminal justice system but really starting to develop protocols that worked with the partners in the criminal justice system to encourage them to be thinking about always whether or not we should be using the traditional system and why we should be on ramping people to that system or where there were opportunities to be taking a different justice pathway and working restoratively in the province so I think one of the things I'll say in terms of bringing some theory to this although not too much there on a Tuesday night while everybody's just had their dinner I don't want the numbers to suddenly starkly decline as I threatened to start doing theory in the evening is to think about this approach what it means to be taking a restorative approach to justice that then isn't immediately only identified with particular ways of doing things certain practices certain policies or procedures or strategies or processes but but actually what makes those things restorative what underlies those or over arches those like an umbrella concept is this idea of a restorative approach to justice and that approach actually challenges us to think about our understanding of justice what's justice all about what is our focus here what difference does it make if we think about justice through a restorative lens rather than that which informs our traditional criminal justice system and I think one of the best ways to think about that is what would happen if we if we put at the center of our thinking about justice the idea that justice is fundamentally concerned with just relations with how we are relating to one another both at an interpersonal level in terms of groups and communities and all the way up in terms of structurally what are those relationships and systems that are shaping how we show up for one another how we do right by one another and that certainly is raised as we're trying to think about what happens when we cause harm to one another when there are injustices when we're living in unjust relations we pay a lot of attention to those we kind of know what those relationships look and feel like they're violent they're oppressive they're neglectful they're harmful they're exclusionary and from that we also can start to see and in the examples I started with a whole bunch of places and spaces where we want to be able to address creating the conditions in which we can be relating to one another more justly more often so not just when things go wrong but how to make sure they go right more often and we can think about that at individual levels but also at institutional and structural levels and so this makes us think in a bit more circular way about it's not just that we use lots of circles it's that we start to think about the continuum of justice work and I suspect Barbara will talk to you a little bit about that changes up right what walks in the door both what kind of problems walk in the door and how you see them as justice problems but also then what your job is in terms of thinking about how you want people to leave able to show up for one another in different ways right to to create the conditions for just relations for justice to actually happen after these processes so I'm not going to give you a long I promise you can you know those of you who are students can take the restorative justice course next year or if you really wanted any given time you can kind of pop by that lab and I'm probably willing to talk your ear off about any of these principles should that sound like a good time for you but I will say that then what what what a restorative approach helps us do is to have certain principles that can guide then if justice is going to be relational and about relationships interpersonal group societal then what difference does that make for the way we do justice if if professor Llewellyn says you can't just skip to the pull of practice off the shelf that you actually have to to be able to think about how to design processes and practices and pathways that can do this relational work what does that require of us these principles actually aren't just the theory they're really good for doing justice right for walking the walk and that is to say what difference does it make well it means we start asking different kinds of questions if we're trying to design processes and show up for one another and we start to use these principles to think about what will count as restorative we have more relational focus we think in more comprehensive holistic ways we're always looking not only at the incident or the dispute but its context causes circumstances and impacts if we're going to think relationally and work relationally to solve those problems we have to think about including in real meaningful ways those who've been affected those who have responsibilities not just at individual levels but also at collective levels we need to be thinking about how to be responsive so no cookie-cutters not one size fits all but processes that can be adapted and responsive to who needs to be in them and what kind of work you need to do and we need to be capable of working in ways that don't assume two sides who are adverse in their interests but inviting people to be able to show up in all the messy and complex ways in which they do when harm happens and when people have needs after that harm to do the future focused work about about what needs to come next so there's lots of ways then if you're thinking about our current context of criminal justice Alison you asked me you know what what what does it matter for why is it important for criminal justice we're facing a whole range of challenges in terms of the failures of our current criminal justice system and the work we need to do we're seeing delay in the criminal justice system we're seeing perennial issues around access to justice we are we have to admit that a system that replicates privilege and and over supervisors and over incarcerates and is overly punitive towards particular populations over others is not a just system we see that in the calls from the TRC for action towards reconciliation and more fundamental changes so that our justice systems are creating both space for indigenous justice and lawways but also not contributing to the harm of privilege and colonialism we are seeing working more restoratively and changing our criminal justice system show up in in federal justice letters and roundtables and initiatives we've we've been seeing work for and and our lab is is currently sort of leading some of this work working across jurisdictions in Canada to develop a national strategy for restorative justice to make it a more viable and meaningful justice pathway Nova Scotia has been a national and international leader in terms of helping people think about the possibilities of restorative justice and partnering with other jurisdictions who are thinking that way and we've provided significant leadership on the on the UN's basic principles for the use of restorative justice and criminal matters so there's a whole bunch of ways then that you can think about the possibility of restorative justice it can be an alternative justice pathway as I've been talking about it the Nova Scotia restorative justice program as we'll hear about is an exciting opportunity to think about that we in this province have also started to think about where that might be possible in terms of responding to civil settlements and particularly class action claims we sometimes see it thought of as a reform process within jurisdictions so within the kind of criminal justice system so you see healing wellness courts mental health court here sort of alternative travel courts and other jurisdictions and within correctional facilities or post corrections but at its core I want to invite us to think about its real transformative potential right that one of the things you've got to be on guard for and walking into the opportunity for is that this should get us thinking differently about justice so we do it differently so that we can be transformative not just tinkering with the current system to make it kindler gentler or at worst case as some people make the case toward cheaper and so Barb is going to talk to you about the program these are some of the goals and objectives that animate the Nova Scotia restorative justice program and you can see those reasons to do this lifting off the page here right we want to respond to the needs of individuals and communities affected by crime we do see this as a harm reduction framework that there are cycles of harm that are not helped by sending people into the criminal justice the traditional criminal justice system or into carceral settings so this you know we are thinking about better pathways and better ways to respond to actually reduce harm we do want not only to look for the bad apples but also to be thinking about how we look to societal responsibility particularly for those cases that wind up in the criminal justice system but are connected to systemic injustices racism discrimination colonialism we want to increase access to justice that's not just about getting people more lawyers that's also about getting people into processes where they can meaningfully participate we want justice to be meaningful and responsive to the parties and their needs we want the community to actually have some confidence and not be alienated by a system that's overly professionalized and we want to use it to build a strong and safe communities and so that's my pitch why why should we want more of Barb Miller and her team and the community justice agencies as real leaders and partners in in helping us think differently and do differently both within community and and in partnership with the system we get better better information and understanding when we encourage people to be part of processes where they can tell their truth and all its messiness and complexity and articulate their needs people have better experiences when they're supported to you know that's the magic happens when people can actually participate together in ways that the justice system sort of tells them a story that they they can't turns out it feels kind of magical when they can be part of a process that that is empowering and allows them to have a voice and and part of the work of doing justice you get better outcomes people follow plans when they're not plans made by someone else for them but plans made together with others that are their plans and where they they owe things to those they care about and to those they've come to see as part of their community and you can actually start to unearth the systemic and structural ways in which we are living within systems and structures of that pattern our relationships and continue to feed harm so that's my pitch for Barb and for the program and I'll I'll turn it over I'll turn it over to you Allison to pitch Barb question thank you so much Jennifer that was that was beautiful as a student I'm always fascinated and I don't know shocked is the right word because I've learned not to be shocked by the failures of the system that we use so often in addressing the systemic inequities and everything that goes on so restorative justice to me was always so such a brilliant solution and so obvious in so many ways so in light of what Jennifer has just spoken about Barb could you speak to how the community justice society puts those theories and those beliefs into actions and maybe a little bit about how clients actually go from the traditional system into the community justice society sure thank you so much thank you Allison and thank you Jennifer that was a great foundational information session on you know the theory behind what we actually are doing every day and at the community justice society we are one of eight community justice agencies in the province of Nova Scotia here in Halifax we have a huge community and we have the the largest staff group here in Halifax and as Jennifer has said there's magic and I kind of laugh when I say that word because I think there really isn't magic it's a lot of hard work to make this all come true everything that Jennifer has laid out for us in that great PowerPoint is the work that is done through the community justice society here in Halifax and across the province every day and you know the the great thing about the justice transformation in Nova Scotia and across the country is that we are recognizing through efforts of community justice that community is the basis for the work that can be done to help change and create better communities so isn't that a novel theory that we actually work with community to create better community and as as Jennifer had the umbrella with you know practice and policy and strategy I would flip the umbrella around and have it pointing up and there's the community in that umbrella and all its messiness it's got all the individuals it's got all the groups it's got all the services the institutions all the people from diverse backgrounds that's our community and the job of community justice is to help those who create harm and those who have been harmed to come together in a way that takes some of that messiness and and strife out of community and you know we have a justice system where we have a set of rules and if people break the rules then they're in conflict with the law and that's kind of where community justice starts we will get referrals from the police when they're interacting with community members and there's a charge or or a conflict of some kind and the police can think about what they are interacting with what's that situation who's involved and the police can make a referral directly to the community justice society and it can be at a pre-charge level and then we can also have referrals from the crown if something isn't brought to us at a police level it can come from when the charge has been laid the the crown will look at it and say hmm I think this is a good this is a good option to send to community justice and we can work from that level we can also work at at a post-conviction level where the court has actually made a conviction and wants some help with the sentencing and and that can be brought to the community justice and we sometimes get referrals from victim services from corrections itself from military police so we have lots of justice partners that have said community justice is a way that we want to move forward restorative justice practices are important and when our agency gets that referral here we are in that umbrella with with all the services and and all the people individuals and groups that that make up community and someone has caused harm to someone or something else in order to be in referred to our office and one of the other things that I love so much about what we do is we have a great staff team they have a great set of skills to take a look at any given situation and it's not a cookie cutter approach to to the the services that that we provide the staff will look at a situation and say what what's really important here what matters most who needs to be involved and are able through looking at the situation to bring people together they'll meet with whoever has created harm they'll meet with those who have been harmed and determine what are the needs of each of them and Jennifer said already there is a respect level when people come into community justice we're not saying you have committed a crime you are less than and you have been harmed you are more than we are bringing people together to say a situation occurred and it's bringing us to this this place right now let's talk about what happened why it happened how it impacted you and how we can all move together make a plan to deal with this situation and look at how to go forward without having this reoccur and that is in the best case scenario let me say that just relations are very very important and another thing that I like to talk about is you know this is a voluntary process people can come in um or they can stay in the traditional justice system and it's an invitation to look at things a different way it is an invitation we get the referral and we talk to people and say here's how the process can work for you in this situation so um we will do the staff will do the work and and make sure that the parties are identified and in our efforts right now of justice transformation we're tending to do more teamwork than we we did at one point with the work that we're doing and and we'll bring a design team together to look at situations and be able to say here let's make sure we understand all the key points in the situation you know what what has to be dealt with and partners we have justice partners that we've talked about but we also have many community partners and if there's a situation perhaps with a youth um a youth has had a problem at home with family um maybe ran away broke into someone's shed to stay in overnight um did not want to be in any of the shelters that are available but broke into someone's shed in their backyard created damage um damaged the shed damaged the contents and there's a charge against that youth and so we will work with that youth we may bring in a school counselor we may bring in a community police officer we may bring in mental health services family services because that that child that youth is not on their own there's a family there too um we work with partners at the IWK many many other community agencies and so we look at who needs to be at the table with this youth and the person who shed was broken into and figure out how we bring you know bring a solution together with all the necessary parties and community justice society doesn't come up with a solution the people in the process come up with the solution and as we've already said you know when you're not having um something demanded of you but you're part of creating a plan to move forward it's more likely to happen and there are supports in place because community is involved so that it can happen um and one of the other things I absolutely love about community justice is that the staff are doing all of the prep work and bringing together you know identifying parties but when we come together we come together with members of the community who help co-facilitate often in these sessions and so it's staff and volunteer community member partnership and that's another thing that makes this process so special we have a group of volunteers who co-facilitate we have a group of volunteers who are um willing and able to be community reps for different reasons from different parts of the community and working together there is a plan come out of all of this and and you know people rise up out of that upside down umbrella and um and move through and have a different set or a different view of the world sometimes we've had people say I didn't think about how my actions could impact other people and we've had people say I didn't understand why that action had to happen right at that time with somebody else if I was in different circumstances maybe I would have made the same choice so it sort of levels the playing field a bit from judgment it doesn't mean that there isn't a right and wrong but it does mean that we are bringing um more color to that and and looking at things from diverse points of view so I'll stop there for a little bit and can see what questions either you might have or some questions we might have from others um I don't know Jennifer having a conversation back and forth a little bit is there anything that I said that you wanted to pick up on or um Allison you help us along with what comes next well Jennifer if you you are on mute but if you're well you're welcome to always respond through the purposes to have a conversation so please do yeah I was just gonna say I actually love sorry you think I had not arrived through the pandemic at all because I still can't find my mute button um I was gonna say I like I one of the things that's really interesting is um when we talk about community justice and restorative justice we often get this question about like who's the community and Barb's just illustrated this like that's the right question to imagine there is one straight answer um is to misunderstand the process so it's not like we're gonna we're gonna bring a victim offender together and we're gonna find the the community person to come and either you know bring be the social conscience or do the community work we certainly are going to bring some of those people together but looking for the community is always doing something really interesting that Barb just said which is looking for the connections looking for what matters looking for what else what's happening here and so you're bringing together those who can help so think about the community volunteers the people who are willing to facilitate the people who are willing to come and say I'm responsible like I care about this community I I care about those who live in it and need to understand what the relationships are but also those who collectively are holding responsibility and can make a difference right so that they're not just coming into the process always saying you know I'm going to be the representative of the moral majority and the and the harms but also the collective responsibility which in this time when we're starting to come to understand how individuals are so connected to our our histories our shared histories the ways in which some have have come with way more privilege than others we need justice that's able to look at that messiness at that more complicated picture and so I love that Barb in terms of saying you know what we are absolutely not saying that there aren't responsibilities or that there's not right and wrong or that there aren't needs and harms but but when we look at those as our questions we also see how how way too rigid the categories of you are a victim and you are an offender or this is all about the individual and not about the collective and so that's not to make excuses or to let people up the hook for their individual responsibilities but it is to say we actually need better explanations we actually need to be able to see each other better from in more complicated ways if we're going to find better solutions if we're actually going to be able to make the plans we can live by to be better to one another rather than the sort of oversimplified kind of story that we get in the criminal justice system which is focused on individuals individual breaches of laws that puts people in their boxes of victim offender and state puts the puts boxes the community really out other than as an audience of this I think this is an invitation to see it differently and then to see our roles and our responsibilities to this work differently and and you know it is messy none of it there is no cookie cutter it's not very smooth edges around each situation and and that's life and that this is a part of you know we don't want people to be defined by anyone action that they take and this is an opportunity to look at at you know that when my kids were little I used to have here it here is what happens here's your thought process here is your action and here's a consequence and that's very linear and it was helpful you know for people to think about that but life is not that simple there are always though you know when you talk about privilege there are so many different ways of people experiencing the same community and bringing the the relevant members of community together to look at any one situation is what we need to do because if we have that that judgment piece that I talked about if we have people judging others from a totally unrelatable point of view that there is there isn't really justice at the end of that and so we're shaking that up and and getting into the messiness and and it looks you know there are different ways to do the work um you know I might do something different here in Halifax than than my colleague down in Cape Breton or in Yarmus but we may have the same outcome because we're we're using the principles that Jennifer has already talked about and we're figuring out with the individuals and and the collective what needs to happen what resources are already out there but what needs to be called attention to so Barb I just want to touch on that so we do have a question in the q&a and it's kind of the perfect time to put it um where they ask what strategies or practice practices have you developed to maintain the approaches that Jennifer has talked about um to the practice of restorative justice especially given that the service goes across the province throughout so many different settings and I know you just touched on that you know you have colleagues in Yarmouth and in Cape Breton um but perhaps you can just shed some light on the processes and how that works well I I think first of all we're we're a very principle based and if you think about the restorative justice principles that Jennifer has brought up you know we're always thinking we're inclusive we're relationally you know we're relationally tying things together we're forward focused etc etc so those principles are at the core of everything that we that we think about and do and um when when you talk about processes you know generally we get a file and we'll review it and then we'll start thinking okay who needs to be here why um who could help what do we need to think about in terms of extenuating circumstances for what might seem a simple situation and how do we keep accountability what does accountability look like in each situation it might look different and how do we keep that focus while while acknowledging what else was going on around a situation and and that principle based approach allows us to work with individuals and and as I said before we have a lot of a lot of respect for everybody who comes in and and wants to work through the situation on both sides um we're human centered we're trauma informed and we're able to to keep it at a very real level instead of you know instead of saying well this is the process i got a checklist and here's everything that i'm going to do um we're creating a checklist based on the principles for every situation yes so i'll say i mean that's a great question i think picking up on what barb was saying if you then look at barb and barb's agency and there being other agencies and then a whole bunch of referral like quite differently placed folks who might refer to it for different reasons how how do you take what barb managed just to do amongst her team and in community justice and make sure that there's some continuity and coherence and and this has been you know and i don't think we get this perfect all the time but i certainly think this province has been trying to create the conditions for that kind of a program while pushing back on some of the sort of standard ways in which we might imagine that happens so so instead of a practice uh standard guide that says here are the practices you will use here are the six steps here are the reasons to deviate here where we could get some certainty that the practice and process will look the same from k breton to yarmus to muskadov it uh that that that that might give us some comfort but it's pretty cold comfort if you just look at what barb described is what you want to expect when you walk in the door of your community and your community justice agency where they will see you and they will ask about the others and they will be able to be adaptive and responsive to the messiness of your situation in circumstances so that that can be a facilitated place to make plans that might work then how do you make sure it's fair and just i think one of the things a restorative approach does is shake our confidence that fair means same right which for all of the folks who might be on the call who took public law is actually quite a deeply held principle in our canadian system and out of our canadian charter right which is we believe in substantive equality we do not think equality means treat everyone the same when they are substantively different and so what barbs described for us is this like messiness of people in communities where their difference deserves to be seen recognized and accommodated in the doing of justice in a fair and right way and so you know then the question is well if we can't rely on identical trainings and manuals that tell everybody what to do and rigid practices that at least we can tell people what to do what do we do what we do with barb said we tell people how to do things and that doesn't mean anything goes those principles are real you can use them to evaluate and assess and analyze why someone did what they did why an agency is doing what they're doing where they may be falling short what people's experience are and so instead of providing these kind of practice standards that say do this do this do this we provide a principle-based guide in this province that says consider this ask this look at this kind of a principle or here's how these might show up and and provides a guide but one that is robust and principled and can help give us a sense of what to do and that we can share in common but isn't so rigid that if the practices don't don't work the same in musketabad as they do and in in in k breton right then you then you can actually adapt them i think the other thing to say is barb knows her colleagues right there is a community of of of practice and of leadership both within the in the community justice agencies and amongst those who are partners from policing to the restorative justice unit in the department of justice to legal aid and to correctional services that participate in the governance and well-being and being responsible for ensuring fair robust and well-resourced access to this justice pathway in this province and we have a long way to go to make it as robust and well-resourced as it needs to be but we're in it together and so those conversations and those design teams that can come together around complex problems and that learning together and sharing together that's how you make sure the principles are showing up right which is which is really those are the kind of drivers for justice transformation right those are the real moments where we start to glimpse each other differently in the system differently and what we're doing differently and and really support the work on the ground that barb and her colleagues are doing in communities across Nova Scotia well and and thank you Jennifer for referring to my colleagues because we do have you know a regular communication system among the eds across the province who have the community justice agencies and the the case workers that work in the agencies we're working on ways to try to increase communication among the team and we we got very creative with that during during COVID and had a lot of online sharing that we did and you know one of the beauties of our our community justice and restorative justice programming is that it's in person it's it's one on one or one on two or one on six whatever it needs to be but we had to learn and adapt to use the the electronic tools when we were all closed in and couldn't escape from our homes we had to we had to adapt and learn how to do things virtually and in the beginning of COVID I have to say we did find there was more intimacy in a screen like this where we could see each other's faces but it was electronic then if we were in a room with masks on six feet apart doesn't feel like a very cohesive team approach to things I mean we did all of that because we needed to we we needed to keep working communities did not stop communities kept going through all of that and referrals did keep coming and and we kept doing the work and a big part of that was communicating with the eds of the other agencies across the province and finding ways to bring our staff together and and exploring with each other you know here's the situation that I have and without breaking confidentiality here's how I handled it here's something else I thought about can you share with me some practices that that you've tried in your agency and why it may or may not have worked we do you know a case study a sharing approach and as we're working on transforming justice it's important that we do communicate that way and having good relations with with Jennifer with our with our justice partners in the police force in the crown office in in the courts and in the Department of Justice you know this it takes a village and not just to raise a child but to do restorative justice and and so that approach is is really important any other questions you wanted to bring forward to us Allison can I say one more thing just before I ask the next question which is this this idea of what the community can do that like organizations and institutions can't right so there's huge temptation for community organizations you know everywhere because it's hard to find resources because it's hard to find a niche and stay stable enough to serve your community to want to be to almost institutionalize yourself right to become more formalized agency sometimes more formal and more strict than the actual antidote you're trying to be for the system and I I get that I think one of the things that's been really helpful to the growth and development of restorative justice here that you know maybe hasn't been the case in some in some other places and spaces is that this work is being done by community-based agencies for all the things that are a torment about that the sort of instability the sort of catches catch can the problem solving the drawing people in that this is about us that actually has been so core to upholding the space where the communities can actually be part of provoking real and lasting transformation of systems right and sometimes we do that better than others but it does mean you know communities are good at finding the people who can help at figuring out they got to do something with not much at finding each other to learn and imagine differently and I think we've we've really seen that in Nova Scotia in terms of some of the creative spaces we have it's let you know the the law school and now the the lab is sort of the lab sort of reflects this way of working this kind of way that we find each other we create sort of team our jays we circle up when there's a problem to try to think differently about something to create space to imagine what justice has to look like in and through our communities and to try to do that work outside of institutions or alongside of institutions and so there's something really special and exciting about about that leadership as hard as it is which I you know I don't want to diminish I don't want to make it sound all exciting bar sell them a sell them a bill of goods about how hard that is but it certainly is the promising engine of change and so important to protect and nurture and support and create convening spaces where people can find each other and and think and do differently and and take risks and and and try to show up for community in different ways that was lovely um Jennifer you know I wanted to ask about you know the work that the lab was doing to increase no access and abilities of our provincial justice program but I I think perhaps I'd like to start with Barb actually and see um you know the experience of the folks who are actually facilitating this and what they have been doing and what they think must be done um and then perhaps we can touch on what the lab has been doing to address those things in in the province what we're doing to address um what we need sorry yeah sorry and how facilitating your sort of justice you know access to that program and increasing access in the ability of the program to address maybe more issues or more thoroughly well I think you know by and large our work right now is receiving referrals from within the justice system and that's certainly uh you know an incredible opportunity to make changes in communities and we focus on that and um with the justice transformation we're doing more and more work together and going deeper into some of the societal issues that impact um and issues around diversity and privilege that impact why certain people find themselves in conflict with the law and as we're doing that one of our challenges is that we are reflective of the community and um at this point I don't feel that we really are we we work to have staff represent the the clients that we serve we work to have a volunteer base that does the same but that we're not successful at that and that's one of the areas that we have to put more energy into and and we're doing that right now in our agency we're going to be hiring a few um new people and we're we've expanded the search um and we're expanding it again because that's really important to us um possibly as we do more we'll need more people as well and so finding ways to sustain you know to acquire and sustain resources which are key resources people at a volunteer and staff level and so we certainly need to do that and the skill set that we're looking for you know that this is this is a unique way of working and you can't say well this this skill set will do it if you're a counselor or if you're a teacher or if you're a criminologist or you you've been working in in um traditional justice roles this is a perfect fit sometimes you have to unlearn things to be able to do this work and I say that even among myself and and some of my colleagues we because we're transforming so we're exploring different ways for outcomes so I guess some of the key things I would I would say is that we need more people as a resource and we need to find ways to make sure we have people and we are the community justice society going out like some of our staff and the programming that we've we did a lot more of before COVID um you know having a girls group so that girls were invited on a Friday afternoon to to come together with one of our staff and talk about healthy relationships talk about nutrition talk about budgeting things that are life skills and and it's basically I keep saying what we're teaching with all these topics is how to make good decisions and and having individuals it works with youth it works with adults um understand the power that we have because sometimes we don't think we have power because we don't have good choices to be able to make but we do have power and choices and so how can we help people recognize the power that they have and that might sound like a far-reaching goal for community justice but it really is one of the foundations of where we work we have other programs stop lift we had a program called party smart to help kids learn how to you know be responsible and make good choices um we have options to anger that's one of the programs that we deliver so people you know anger is a natural emotion that people feel how do you manage it without causing yourself and other people harm and so sometimes when we're working on the plans that we talked about involvement in these programs or some other community programs is is what comes out of the plan and people get resources that they may not otherwise have we're all about finding the resources creating and sustaining them in our agency is a big deal too yeah i wonder if one of the other things barb as you begin to work in these more expansive ways or as you begin to think about the nature of the challenges and the supports that people need that come the door um if it's true i suspect it's true for you that part of what's happening is you start to look around for the different kinds of partners that you need and different kinds of resources so communities are pretty good at that right this like what for the people you need but but often those resources are in very siloed structures so your cases come to you from the criminal justice system but often the nature of the problem that got them there um is connected to resources that are tied up in a whole bunch of other systems and structures and places from child protection to the community wahai to to housing you gave that great example of shelters and housing a lack of housing and so it strikes me that one of the things that increasingly is important is connecting up with those those other supports and resources and partners in finding sort of forward focused justice solutions so you know justice doesn't become just about the justice the legal system and your partners and and i think that's one of the things both that community can do well but also that's a bit of a challenge if you ask like what are some of the things the lab can do well sometimes it's we can convene a bunch of people in a room and make sure that they talk to the community justice agent you know like we're sharing these problems and understanding how we need to work differently but i wonder if that's part of what you're finding increasingly important in your work in terms of what it is and and and that's part of why we take the community approach i mean we have our case workers tend to have a community a community that they work with you know somebody is working in spryfield somebody else is in sackville somebody's in dartwood so we have different we have different areas where an individual and their team because their colleagues and and other volunteers working with them and and community partners are working on the relationships within that community so we're an agency but we cover a whole bunch of communities i think it's amazing how we both talk with our hands jennifer um we're we're an agency but we have all of these you know these filters to communities and we have people in the agency who are linking those specialized or perhaps never thought of resources together and again when i talk about the provincial program you know we have people who have expertise in community justice restorative justice programs and principles in eight communities across the province they're not only specializing in restorative justice they're specializing in their community i don't know all the ins and outs of amherst or troro or picto um or bridgewater but my colleagues know their communities and so they are able to put that filter on when they're looking at how they are going to address harms that have happened and bring people together in their communities and so you know it's something that the restorative justice program does but it's something that each agency does and it's something that each caseworker does and so um we really we really haven't i don't think highlighted enough how important that is in in that umbrella of community is is you know it's kind of like each one teach one or you tell one and i'll tell you know tell two friends etc etc because that's what we're doing is building that that connection in the community very key word which is one of these great ways of um of having people thinking there's huge benefits nova scott has one of the most developed and comprehensive restorative justice programs uh in the world it's not the only now but but it was also one of the early um and so that's great and we should feel fortunate that there is the structure of a program uh that could give some lift to that and and and support your work and your work alongside the criminal justice system but one of the challenges of that is making sure that it doesn't become captured by the system as a service or a program uh that that slowly becomes co-opted in that sense right and and so you know the community justice societies are always a bit on guard about that right you want to protect the exact thing barb has just said about we know our communities we know what our communities need and want we're we're trying to push you as a system to change the way you think about what needed um and at the same time they sort of exist uh alongside and and connect it to in terms of the referrals and where cases come from and i think one of the things that are going to be so important in terms of you asking else and what do you need and what do we need to be continuing to be protective about and expanding is this idea that we don't think about it just as a program we don't think about it as just a service in service of or some tinkered reform of the criminal justice system because very quickly it can become captured and lose that transformative edge and one of the things for example that the lab does along with all of the of the community partners is to create spaces for those kinds of conversations to be making sure that as we're thinking about the protocols for example that we move from how can we convince the police and the crown to refer more cases to restorative justice it's good that they do it's a very good entry point but how do we start to change the way they think about justice so that they become equally responsible for this pathway this important justice opportunity and transformative pathway in Nova Scotia how is it their restorative justice program rather than just barb's problem to think about in the sense that they have to nurture and support the community find partners think more often about this as the the the first or best justice pathway which is to support communities to deal with their own justice problems because they know their community best and because they can convene helpers in the best possible way that can make plans for the future how do we how do we slowly change those sets of assumptions so that we're not just hoping people use the program well but not but but not really transforming the way they think and I think if the lab has some potential to sort of keep those conversations going keep those places and spaces for the community's voice to be heard on that and to be collaborating working together while they're very busy meeting the needs of their community members that's one of the one of the methods to the madness about what this place can be at least along with those important community partners well and and we need to get better at telling our story of what we are you know what we are doing in terms of community transformation it's not just justice transformation it's you know I I see people all the time who want to live in a safer community in a more connected community and so as we're working as the community justice agencies as we're working with our partners we need to be making them champions not only of restorative justice but of justice and so and and working alongside and to some degree putting pressure on the other the other powers around justice in our community so that there isn't a way to not think about it in this connected holistic restorative forward focused way and so the more work we do in community the more the community will take charge of that message and and be able to say this is what we need in our community so it's looking at you know within the justice system and within community to bring that message at a constant higher level so I feel so lucky to be able to just sit and listen to this as a student as a community member as a future lawyer I just feel it's so important we do have a couple of questions I'm gonna kind of shift us more to the Q&A we have two in here and then I also have one of my own if we have time for it but the first one we have more questions but the first one is who can access restorative justice programming so does it have to be just under a certain act such as the Young Offenders Act or summary convictions under the criminal code you know what are the bounds of being able to access your program funds anybody can be referred there are different levels where some charges have to come at a post-conviction level but anybody can be referred to us so it's it's really a matter of understanding what's going to happen and making the referral to us from from the various levels that we've spoken about Jennifer it looks like you wanted to say something did you no oh okay I can add on if you want but no I was no I that's the yeah that's the simple answer to the question yeah there's a geeky answer for the law students on the on the on the call which is that the the youth there are different mechanisms within legislation that allows for referrals so in the youth criminal justice act there's space for diversion diversionary measures and those require the approval as they do in the criminal justice act of the attorney general to recognize a program that can be used in that way particularly if police or crown are going to refer judges on the other hand are not limited by the attorney general because they have constitutional independence and so they can refer they can refer to to programs and and available resources within the community that are willing to take those sorts of cases and so we the Nova Scotia restorative justice program really early on walked into that space created by the youth criminal justice act when the act changed as alternative measures and and so Nova Scotia for quite some time has had restorative justice as it's chosen path for alternative measures which is why it was invested in and growing at a kind of an what may not always feel orderly but an orderly way right that's why we have coverage across the province and we have agencies that are able to do this and ensure access to justice and across those entry points when we moved in 2016 it's a little harder to find the space to do that under the criminal under the criminal code but you will all know from taking first-year criminal law that there's lots of discretion built in built into the criminal system and so where there are limits it's because that discretion has otherwise been fettered so so where there's no discretion on mandatory minimums you can refer but you can't refer if you're a judge you can't refer in a way that avoids those mandatory minimums hopefully we'll be addressing that with legislation soon and there's one limit that was placed really early on in the program that's the that's a moratorium so there's a moratorium that was placed on the use of the referral to the program by police and crowns so that the attorney general said you can use this program i authorize it except i place a moratorium on referral cases for those involving uh intimate partner violence or gendered violence um as with all moratoriums hopefully the cod moratorium too um that they're temporary right they are a hold and this was a really important hold in this province because it wasn't a hold that makes a statement that restorative justice is never appropriate for that and in fact we've seen lots of women's equality seeking organizations in the province be really clear that justice transformation and new and different contextualized responsive ways of doing justice uh restoratively are important for women um and those affected by gender violence in this province but rather it was a recognition that we need to prepare ourselves well to do that we need to resource ourselves with all of the relationships and partners uh that barb has just identified we need to be thinking about the complexity of those issues and we need to be really sensitive to the systemic nature um and vulnerabilities um of those issues if we're going to uh be equipping communities well uh to be responding in the context of of gendered violence and so there's actually been a ton of work done in the province very careful good work to build those relationships that knowledge that understanding to think about um how this can be an important justice pathway in those circumstances and so so I think that's been moving that's been moving forward and might not be something you would otherwise notice if you if you just looked at the program and it's and it's moratorium and and that again speaks to the importance of of our approach to connecting with community partners that do a lot of the work around gender-based violence and and looking at programs for men as well as as supports for women and you know we're looking at how how could we and what do we need to be able to move forward with that certainly with the moratorium there's no action on that um but how how do we equip our staff with new information if that was ever to change we need to think about putting that plan in place and so um moratorium is there and we're saying let let's deal with things as they are and look at how we might be able to move forward with changes and if we were what would they need to be so a lot of exploring around that and and every other type of of institutionalized issue in our in our communities thank you for that both of you kind of on the on the same line of things um someone has asked and acknowledged first off that it sounds like there's a lot of work that goes into each each case that goes through restorative justice and I I also know that to be true um and and they're wondering you know how many files would a worker typically have you know to the volume of of resources going through um and also how long does the process take compared to the traditional court process so whether it be a guilty plea or a not guilty you know is it shorter to go through restorative justice not necessarily um the the process I like to say it takes as long as it takes um and it depends on the the situation what's around it are there extenuating circumstances who needs to who needs to be in the process how do we get people ready to come together that that is a part of the process we spend a lot of time on but I first of all it's you know each case is different as we've said so it's identifying what needs to happen who needs to be involved how do we how do we make it happen um and some things could be wrapped up in three months and some things could be you know take six months or sometimes maybe a little bit longer and so it's it's not a how long does it take it's it's as individual as they the referrals are and the bases that we have um caseworkers we have phenomenal caseworkers in this in this agency and in this province and here in Halifax um caseworkers can have 50 files and sometimes more through the pandemic sometimes it's been more um and so number isn't the only thing we look at though like you can say 50 or 75 and go oh my goodness but somebody else might have 48 and some of them are incredibly more complex than some of the others when a person has 75 so um and we're just trying to figure out ways to measure that because the complexities and the deep work that is becoming more and more necessary um as as we're exploring transformative ways to do this it's requiring more deep work it's requiring more time and and so that's why I said before one of the things to sustain the program may be more people to do this work um and we we work very hard to make sure that the the caseworkers have a balance we talk a lot about uh work-life balance in our agency and and trying to make sure there's a lot of um relational work with us and support of each other as well as what we're doing with our clients and um the foundation of the work that they do speaks to the commitment that they have the skill that they have and the need of the work and so as we talk about this more I'm expecting more people will say wow that's a great process and how do we get involved and I'll be going oh my goodness please can we have more people to help meet the need um and and so I hope I hope that um addresses the question somewhat um we do have high caseloads they're higher than I would like them to be and as we hire more people and look to the complexities to see if we need to expand beyond that we'll keep we'll keep asking ourselves that question too okay first of all that was the best Nova Scotia answer ever and one that all of the all of the program should have which is the it'll take the time it takes I was like my mother and my grandmother in that moment uh I think that's true I I think the other thing it does is push us to examine how we assess uh the length of time it takes so we measure it often against the criminal justice process so first of all let's hold on to how fast that is um but but so it's not um but the other thing I would say is we if that's all we measure so uh then we're measuring the wrong thing so I wanted to I guess push on two uh two kinds of things for you to notice one is um we might not want to ask how fast it is because as Bob Miller says it takes the time it takes which I'm going to hold on to now for for a long time takes the time it needs to take um but I need your grandmother that I did not I said my mother and my grandmother both of whom are fierce women so it's always a big compliment um but uh but I think it does uh respond in a more timely way that is to say that by the time you know sometimes the paperwork doesn't get there but by the time it gets to community agencies restorative justice are trying to make contact in a way that people understand that there is a process underway and what that work is and it's a process that's going to be about them and for them uh and connected to their needs that makes a big difference the touch points aren't just about touching the paperwork of a file or the number of times it comes back for set date or uh furthering one's alienation or the not dealing with or the not thinking about the right things about the nature of the responsibility you have the harm you've caused what your needs are and so the time you're spending on those files are tangibly different than the time that you're spending in an administrative or bureaucratic system like the criminal justice system and so um and you understand most of the time in in the restorative justice program the conversations you have just had about your case which is act fundamentally not the case without some serious effort of translation by very good legal aid and other lawyers so you can stand in court and not really know what just happened um and so the investment of time over that period of time is more likely to be orienting people to thinking about what happened then the others involved and how they're involved even if there is a wait to be able to uh move to the next stages the other thing is we can't measure circles like we measure courts right so it's not just oh you're wasting all this bureaucratic time like when's the circle come or when's the conference come or when's our meeting because it may be depending on what the case is that that uh there's lots of work that needs to be done to help people understand what's connected to this how they're connected to this who else and what else that is actually doing justice work in that preparatory what otherwise might feel like why can't you just call them and get them to come for the session and so I think you do need to be paying attention to the quality and the nature of the work and the contribution that's making and the last thing I'd say is it isn't the same as the guilty you don't get to the plan and say oh it's taken us just as long to get to a plan as you get to a sentencing except you've done all of the capacity building and relational building that is often part of what we think of when we think of rehabilitation when we think about the work that we hope the criminal justice system does in the messages it sends which pretty garbled most of the time I'm not sure that most people come out of the criminal justice system get the message we're trying to teach or that they will be engaged in through community corrections or or custodial timer or or correct time in a correctional facility and so if you look at where you are at the end of a of a process at the end of your time with community justice society and restorative justice when you get to the point of making a plan it's been an awful lot of work ideally done to prepare you to help you find the others to understand the plan and to build the conditions in which that plan is likely to be successful and often time change in real time so sometimes people are doing part of what the plan requires seeing others perspectives understanding themselves differently doing some pre-work to kind of figure out their own anger what their needs are what they're the before they're getting to making a plan and so you are in some sense way further ahead so we're going to put a timeline on it you know we have to we have to put a different timeline on it's not to end of session equals end of guilty plea and or sentence you know you should be thinking about how long it actually takes for those probation plans or community corrections plans or or or custodial periods of time and that might be a better measure for actually trying to trying to compare apples to apples well and and that was just great and I think the capacity building that you spoke about Jennifer is you know it's exactly what we want to focus on as we're coming back to the umbrella that is the community when we're putting that all together it's a little bit less messy for people at the end of this process because they have sometimes acquired new skills even if it's the ability to see things from another's point of view even if it's the ability to understand an impact beyond their immediate feeling and action and the social capital benefits of this kind of work is amazing when we think about when we think about community and we think about you know adults who have gone through the program who at 38 years old say you know what now no one's ever asked me how I felt about XYZ whatever the issue was and that sometimes stops me right in the moment I think oh my goodness you're a member of my community and you've lived here sometimes for 38 years sometimes people are newer to the community but adults saying to us no one's ever asked me how or why and that's a part of our community and conversations and opening up people's points of view is very important for that umbrella full of community members that is by its nature messy because it's a community of a whole bunch of diverse and different people and traditions and systems that people are working within and so so when I think about the value of our work and the social capital we bring to communities like and the fact that you know people get very excited when they hear about this they think oh my goodness this can change the world yes I'm biased yes it can change the world but how how do we how do we in practice hold each other not just people but systems partner agencies um and and you know politicians how do we hold each other accountable as a community and that that's a huge that's a huge question that we you know we can think about in different ways um and and build responsibility for self and others those are pretty values based principles that most people in community would agree with oh my goodness no I think that that was lovely now I am mindful of the time but there's a question I think that it's a good way to to wrap up our discussion a little bit um but I will challenge both of you in that we have to be a little snappy um and the question is how do you measure effectiveness of the restorative justice program um that in a way that reflects the complexity of it so you know someone who finishes the program it's you know they they make the comparison to existing justice metrics like recidivism so you can measure whether someone who has been convicted is convicted again but how do you go through and measure that with restorative justice well I'm from a from a quick um anecdotal point of view when we have people come back to us years after they've been involved with the program to say you know I learned about responsibility I learned about making decision um and I'm teaching my kids some of the things that I've learned that is amazing not so amazing is when we've had youth who become parents who are back again um another time and so we we have our work cut out for us but measuring effectiveness is is individual success and it's also um you know community change when I see people in other partner agencies who approach things differently than they did three years ago because of the work that myself and and our um casework manager and our caseworkers have done by being part of the communities that they work in I I think that's part of the success as well yeah I think that's I think that's beautifully said about I mean I think uh the one the one thing that we have to be really attentive to is that um if we're gonna do things in a different way and look in a different way then we need to be able to describe and measure success in ways that we're not used to and so one of the risks of measuring restorative justice as against the standards and objectives of the traditional system when when the values and the goals are different is that you you went up chasing your tail right you're trying to prove yourself legitimate and valuable to the mainstream system by by trying to try to meet its standards um and so I think we do need to be really attentive recidivism is a great example everyone thinks it actually matters whether it makes a difference to if people keep committing harm but recidivism is not always a very good measure for whether or not anybody's making progress in contributing to less harm it also doesn't measure anything about whether you've addressed the systemic factors that actually led people to come into conflict with the law so if you've made no difference on homelessness or poverty or racism or the structural environmental inequalities and then wonder why people keep coming into contact with a system that is meant to criminalize those very people it seems like you're not maybe as far as us measuring the right thing so I think this is you know my short pit the answer is this is the right question we have to be really careful that we don't value what we can measure often we get a bunch of metrics and we and we hold to them because that's what we can measure and we need to challenge ourselves to do you know barbs told you a lot about what do we value in community about this right about how we show up for one another but how we can know one another about how much we feel we belong about whether or not we have safe um and healthy communities what if we measured our current criminal justice system against any of those measures wouldn't bear so well and we know that because people tell us that all the time about what's failing about it and so now the challenge is how do we capture those things how do we listen to the stories how are they more than anecdotal how do we make sure that people are feeling well served by the processes the justice processes that they're involved in and how do we know if it's making a difference we need that we need to ask those questions and demand that we don't just get satisfied by the existing metrics that aren't calibrated well to to to measure what we value and how do we put our restorative justice voices beside those who are leading the charge around the issues of homelessness and um you know violence and and all the issues that are in the community it's not about oh my dog is going to go insane in a minute just hold on there will be barking oh sorry look how in tune she is with the dog that is I could just I could feel it somebody's walking any sorry about that I my point was we need to be connected as I said before and so our restorative processes can help a lot with the other agencies that are doing work that deals with a specific issue and so our partnering with them is just as important as us partnering with with other with other justice partners and other community partners and I know you wanted to say something else Allison so I'll just be quiet now no this is this is wonderful and I again I've appreciated and I think our audience has appreciated this conversation this evening um the last thing that we have you know is a comment and I and I'd like to echo it um and it says that you know this conversation has been really interesting and that the change in the restorative justice process over the years reflects the work that is and has gone into Nova Scotia over the past couple decades um and that on a large scale this work has been very impactful in Nova Scotia and that's become evident to our audience this evening so I wanted to share that with the two of you that that was said um and also you know just close on I know that there are students who have asked me who are going to watch this and ask um how they can get involved either at the restorative lab or at the community justice society itself so if either of you have an email or or a way to get get some applications and I think that we would love to have that shared great I can do that we'll do and and we welcome we welcome community volunteers all the time so that would be great and I just want to say thank you Allison for helping to organize this or organizing this and and it was great to to be on a panel right beside you Jennifer so thank you so much for your for your work um and your voice that speaks to the work that we do at in lots of places that we aren't reaching yet it's been wonderful to be uh to be connected to Barb in this way and uh and and to be as we are connected when we get to work together in other places and spaces including at the lab and so if if students are interested I would strongly encourage them to volunteer um at community justice society or if you live in a different place or space in Nova Scotia um to find your local restorative justice agency and to think about the ways in which even if you don't want to volunteer in processes all the time that you can be part of that larger community building work that Barb talked about if you want to find the lab we're actually not in the law school we're down in the Medjug building just between the court and the public library it seems kind of the perfect space for for community and government and and university to find one another and you can apply for um summer jobs when they open you can take the restorative justice course next next year you can tune into the fellows and associates lecture and seminar series that's coming up that'll be advertised over the next three months some of the fellows and associates that have been working at the lab are sharing their research and and other work and and stay tuned for you know future kinds of events and and places to to volunteer and be connected with the work that we get to do with people like like Barb in the community justice society right and we have we have a very simple email that I can just say because people can remember it's info at CJS which is community justice society CJS HFX Halifax CJS HFX info at CJS HFX dot CA so if you want to connect with us start there and your message would be sent to to me or to a volunteer coordinator you would be able to reach us so looking forward to hearing from people and I did really appreciate the opportunity to share our program tonight thank you again Barb and Jennifer and thank you to everyone who came out to watch this is the last event of the year for the criminal justice coalition and behalf on the coalition and the student side especially you know we want to just thank our panelists tonight and in previous for helping us have a really impactful and remarkable year so we hope that folks will stay tuned for the work that we do next year and with that we come to a close great thank you congratulations to the criminal justice coalition and what a what a fantastic year you've had so thanks for leading the way on that great