 Note that Orban talks about the Western Christian civilization. For conservatives, the West is Christianity. And I'll just say, and I think I told the story of actually telling conservatives this years ago at a think tank in Washington DC, I consider Christianity to be one of the enemies of the West. The West is the abandonment of Christianity. The West is the turning its back on Christianity, the marginalization of Christianity, the depoliticization of Christianity, that is separation of church and state. The West is the secular. The West doesn't become the West until the Renaissance. And the Renaissance through today is a process of marginalizing religion, marginalizing Christianity. It is a process. Now, you'll see how he defines what this Western Christianity, what he considers the West to be in a second. So you'll be able to get a good grasp of ways coming from it. But notice that they want the West, they want to associate the West with themselves. But they indeed are the enemies of the West, they are anti-Western, they counter to the West. And in that sense, they are the enemy. Let me go back. It's more about our civilization. I mean, the Western Christian civilization. Now, the main division line is not according to ideologies. It's deeper. It has an anthropological character. So on one side, in Europe and probably in your country, but in Europe, definitely. There are groups of people who think that the most important thing of the world is their ego themselves, me. This is the center of the world. The other camp of the people, the other part of the society thinks that it's not true. Because there are certain things which are more important than me, than my ego. Family, nation, God. And because they are more important than me, I have to serve this higher level of things. So this society has a majority here in Hungary. And the other society, which is concentrating only me, you know, only dealing with myself, it's a more westernized, dominating factor of the political life. So he is a fascinating thing. He's absolutely right. The fundamental, the fundamental dividing line in the West, the fundamental dividing line in our civilization today, but it's more complicated than he sees it. It's more complicated than Michael Knows can believe it, is individualism versus collectivism. That is the fundamental divide. Individualism versus collectivism. And as much as I despise European liberalism, as much as I despise, you know, much of the American ruling class, people who, the culture in America, the West's spirit fundamentally is an individualistic spirit. Now, the challenge there is individualism has never been grounded in an objective morality. It's never been grounded in, okay, what do I do with myself now? What do I do with pursuing my own life? What do I do with my freedom, my rights? What do I do with my liberty? And as a consequence, individualism has been captured, this idea of individualism, it's not real individualism, has been captured by the left and being turned into subjectivism, emotionalism, and a different form of collectivism, a socialist collectivism, a collectivism of mother nature, a duty to the earth, and really become a kind of religion. So it is true that the left is not about family, nation, God, but it's completely untrue that the left is about the individual. The left is about the poor mother nature, the mother earth, the, you know, the particular intersectional group that happens to be the most oppressed. So the left has become victim, poor mother earth to replace family, nation, God, something like that. The right is family, nation, God. And indeed what he describes as this idea of me, myself, I'm the most important thing, that doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. It exists at a sense of life level. It exists at the level of day-to-day behavior. Indeed, many people in the West, if you go to Europe, if you travel around the United States and you look at people and how they behave on a day-to-day basis, they're pursuing their values. They are trying in some pretty pathetic way to even pursue their own happiness. So there is a sense in which there's a kind of an eye there, an ego there. But what they're missing, of course, is a morality of egos and what they're missing, of course, is reason-guided individualism, reason-guided self-interest, reason-guided ego. And in that sense, because they're missing ego, because they're missing reason, they're not really being egoist. It's a pseudo. So there are really three forces today in the West, geographically the West, in the United States and Europe, and to some extent these are in plays in other Westernized places like Japan and South Korea and other places, but not really. Culturally, those places are still followers and are leaders. It's still Western Europe and the United States that are the leaders. There are three elements today. There is the element of collectivistic right, family, nation, God. Duty. Duty, duty, duty, duty, ethics. Forget about yourself, don't think about yourself. Indeed, when you think about yourself, you're being bad. You're being evil. You're being captured by the devil. Family is the only unit that counts. We'll hear Knowles talk about this. And families put together, create tribes that create nations and all serve the ultimate authority which is God. You don't count. That is a message. Now, again, they can't actually live that. They don't live it. They can't actually hold that consistently. They don't hold it consistently. But that's the fundamental, as Orban said. There's something more important than you, family, nation, God. Then there is the collectivistic left that worships the victim and that idealizes mother nature, both the left and the right, both of these collectivistic groups live on a day-to-day basis as a practical life in pursuit of individual values, at least to some extent. The real alternative to both of these collectivistic visions is real individualism, is rational, long-term self-interest. And that they can't even conceive of. They can't think of that. That blows their mind. That's just not within the conservatives or the left's possibility. So insightful. One thing I really admire about Orban is he's a seriously intelligent, educated person who takes knowledge and learning and wisdom very seriously. And then applies it to destroying liberty and freedom in his own country, applies it to destroying the institutions that make liberty and freedom possible within his own country, applies it to a real destruction of free press, of really of free speech, a real destruction of vibrant individualistic society. So yes, he's well-educated, incredibly well-educated, as many authoritarians often are. He knows the stuff and he knows how to argue for it, as many authoritarians are. But Orban is, is, fundamentally. Orban is the most authoritarian political leader in the EU. Why they tolerate him in the EU? I don't know. The reason he stays in the EU, because as a nationalist, you would think he would want to leave the EU. He would want to Brexit the EU, right? Hungarian exit, something like that, is because Hungary is a poor country. It has very high inflation, for example, right now, because it's not on the euro. It has high inflation, and it is a poor country. And it is, it struggles economically. And the way Hungary survives, the way Hungary survives economically, is by leaching off of the EU, by leaching off of the Germans and the French and the others in the EU. So it's, you know, the real hypocrites, a massive award for these guys. The real hypocrites, on the one hand, nationalists condemning the EU. We want to be Hungarians. We want to be by ourselves. And then, of course, not leaving the EU, too afraid to leave the EU. Why? Because they depend on it, because they're basically parasites. And I know that seems really basic. You would hope that all your statesmen would do that, but they don't. They patently don't. And the other thing I like is he's not just some completely disconnected intellectual in an ivory tower somewhere. He's a guy in the rough and tumble of politics. But he takes these broad historical and philosophical questions very seriously. And he can simplify it. This is one of the signs that somebody knows what he's talking about, is when he can take a complex matter like this anthropological divide within Western civilization and distill it down in really simple terms. Here's the divide. People who think that I, me, my is the most important thing on Earth, and people who think that there are more important things than me. So Michael Knowles hates I, me, my. I, me, my is the devil. I, me, my is the enemy. There's much more important things, much more important things than you, than any one of you. Yeah. Simple enough, and it's so true. I think even if you caught the... What's fascinating, and you'll see this again later, he says it's so true, or it's so wrong, or it's so... Evidence, argument, something, nothing. Right? Just assertion. It's so true. And then later on, I and Randy, you'll say, she's wrong in everything. And what things? In what way? Architecture. She's wrong in architecture. In what way? Prove it. Show us. Why? How? No. Fact. Western liberals and liberal-leaning so-called conservatives, if you caught them in a moment of candor, maybe you got them after a couple of drinks, they would commit this. They would be proud of this. They would say, yes, of course. I exist to fulfill myself. I'm interested not in caring for my family and community and country. I'm interested in self-love. I need self-care, you know? It's just, I'm going to take care of me now. Kim Kardashian said this after her divorce. She said, in my 40s, I'm finally going to... I'm going to take care of myself. As though she'd... She was Mother Teresa before that, but now she's going to take care of herself. And it's not just the left. And I wish this were true. I wish people did that, but of course, I wish they were serious about it. And I wish they took guidance on how to do that. But isn't it at the end of the day all about taking care of yourself? Isn't that the purpose of life? Life? Whose life? It's the right. When we talk about life, whose life are we talking about? Your own life. Isn't the first thing you should be doing is taking care of your own life? Is living your own life? Is making the most of your own life? So he can caricature it. He can make it look silly and stupid. But isn't that the reality that, including Michael Knowles, doesn't he have to take care of himself? Isn't he going to be better at anything else that he does if he takes care of himself? But isn't ultimately the purpose here to live the best life that you can? With the one opportunity that you have? Now, people don't know how to do that. And they need to be taught. And that's Iran's job, right? To teach them how to do that. To give them principles and guidance. That's what moral philosophers are for. That's what intellectuals should be doing. That's what Michael Knowles should be doing as a public intellectual. That's what I try to do a little bit here on the show, is to give some guidance. This is how you should live your life. This is what a good life means. This is what a good life leads to. These are the principles that will aid you in your life. But no, Michael Knowles, because the individual fundamentally, fundamentally to his worldview does not matter. He has to ridicule it. He has to make fun of it. He has to demean it, diminish it. Because what matters is family, nation, God. You don't matter. It's the right under the influence of people like Ein Rand. People like Ein Rand. First mention of Ein Rand. Ein Rand's influence on the right of being self-interested. Yes, cool. I would say to come more seriously. The problem with the right is they don't take it seriously enough. The right under the influence of... He can't think of anybody else. That's really interesting, don't you think? That he can't think of anybody else who's influenced the right of being self-interested. It's Ein Rand, and that's it. A hyper-individualism. The right under the influence of libertarianism. Which says... Yeah, me. I mean, my greed is good. I'm just going to pursue my own interests. You leave me alone. You can't tell me what to do. I'm entitled to do whatever I want. That's my freedom. That's my liberty. That's not the classical western understanding of liberty. That's not... That's right. It's not the classical western understanding of liberty because there was no proper understanding of freedom and liberty until suddenly the Enlightenment. Because the conception of liberty and freedom before that was liberty and freedom constrained by a God who created the box in which you function. And you only free in... as long as you behaved according to God's commandments. And it's only in the Enlightenment that people shrugged that off and said, no, freedom means freedom. Acting on my own judgment. Acting based on my own ideas. Acting on my own mind. Free of the coercion but also free of the guilt imposed on me primarily by the church. Which is coercive. Both psychologically... Well, you don't curse psychologically, but coercive physically and psychologically oppressive. Or else, this is a new conception of freedom. It's not the quote classical conception of Christianity because it is fundamentally a rejection of Christianity. Not the Christian understanding of liberty, but it is the modern liberal conception. It's exactly what Prime Minister Orban is talking about. And he says, look, that's a view. He's obviously criticizing it, but he's more just describing it. He's saying that is the dominant view in the West. But we have a different view. Right now, go to Metashare.com Now, notice something. Who do you think we have a better chance of actually convincing here? Somebody who rejects me, myself, ego or somebody who says I care about myself. I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to do with no guidance. At least the second person gets it in the right direction. And you now have to get them to think about guidance about morality about reason about what actually leads to a good life. But how are you ever going to get to Michael Knowles? How do you even argue with family, nation, God? He's rejected the individual completely. There is no basis on which to discuss. At least the so-called liberals he's describing are orient towards self, wrongly and ultimately collectivistically. But at least there's some orientation that now you can have a discussion about what does it mean to be oriented towards self? The way he's caricaturing, I just care about myself, self-fulfilling, happiness, okay? Yeah, me too. Let's talk about how you achieve that. And maybe there's a path to actually communicating with somebody like that once you get past the emotionalism and actually start talking about how do you achieve that self-fulfillment that you want? We have a different view which is much as I want to pursue my own individual interests much as I like myself Why? Why do you like yourself, Michael? Why do you want to pursue your self-interest? Much as I have certain desires, I recognize some things are more important, namely family country and God. Why? Family is the basic political community man, going back there's a big distinction between liberalism classical, modern and otherwise and the classical Christian tradition. Liberalism says the basic unit of society is the individual. Christianity and Aristotle and classical understandings of politics say that the basic unit of society is the family. I hate that he brings Aristotle in on the side of Christianity but the Christians have been doing that since Aquinas so they've been doing it for a long time so it can't blame him when it's been a what, a 700 year tradition. And it's the family because politics is public involves other people. It says that man is a political creature, the social animal. Okay? You also said man is a rational being. Difference. So Orban says starts with the family and then goes to love of country and the importance of nation. Why? I keep going back to why. Why is family the initial unit? Why can it be some other, if it's political why can it be a voluntary association of people? Why is it necessarily family and what do we mean by family? Just the close family unit, your children when they're adults does that still count? Does family count your cousins and extended family? Does family count your parents? What does family actually mean? And is it a political entity? Do we do politics in a family? Is that what we're actually doing? Right because that's an extension of the family is an extension of the Kinsfolk and the tribe and your patriotism is an extension of filial piety. So kinship is an extension of filial piety so this is why there's so anti-immigration, right? Because if a nation, right I mean it's family extended family is a tribe tribes come together to form a nation. And that's kind of organic from the family up. So when somebody comes in as an individual crosses a border and wants to enter your nation well wait a minute, you don't belong to any of the tribes you don't belong to any of the families out you go. So the whole orientation is tribal the whole orientation is collectivistic but again, why? Why is a tribe good? What about the individual within the tribe who doesn't like the tribe? What about the what is it about tribal history that recommends it so much? If you look at tribal history it's pretty brutal, pretty barbaric isn't it a fact that civilization is a product of abandoning tribalism quad tribalism? I mean if the founding fathers listen to nobles they would be horrified they wouldn't recognize him as an American intellectually they weren't tribalists they didn't believe family was the be all end all there's no family in the Declaration of Independence so where do you get this idea that it's all family and I can see once you accept family and then family is all important individual doesn't matter, family is all important then an extended family okay I see that that's kind of a tribe if we want a bigger political entity then we have to combine some tribes and form that I get all that and therefore it has to start with is the individual important isn't it perceptually the individual is all the really that exists intellectually we know that each one of us is an individual we are allied because of our own actions we are as individuals are the unit we might for families and then we extend ourselves to those families we might not we don't lose value because we don't because value is our value I mean where does value come from value to human for what the whole concept of value is an individualistic concept my values the things that I want to gain or keep the things that are important to me values don't come from the outside well they do and this is the fundamental philosophical issue they do once you accept the kind of a God that a Christian might accept they do once you accept a Christian God who dictates your values are external to you the values are outside of you your job if anything is to discover those values and somehow the Christians have decided family is all important it certainly is not in the Old Testament nobody cares about family in the Old Testament this polygamy and all kinds of shenanigans in the Old Testament but there's no real importance to family tribe maybe but not a family if you had to go in the Old Testament it's tribe nation God that's it and ultimately what this is ordered toward is God yes because some things are good and true and beautiful and we should want to and it all falls apart without God God is the key without God there's no answer to the why the family why the state the nation and of course the justification for all that is God God has told us God has revealed this to us but once you get rid of God the whole collectivistic pyramid falls apart and that's why they have to fight for it so hard they have to constantly religion is so important for them it's not trivial seek for those and some things are destructive and ugly and false and not conducive to our flourishing destructive to whom non-inducive to whose flourishing yes some things are clearly destructive to my flourishing clearly some things are bad for me there is good and there is evil for my life the standard is human life the standard is individual human life but that's not because God dictates it that's because that is the nature of reality some things are good for you some things are bad for you some things will kill you some things will allow you to flourish and be happy and be successful you want the things that allow you to be happy and successful because those are the same things that allow you to survive death does not allow you to pursue values death is a dead end but for him it's often the outside and why should I care about flourishing if the individual doesn't matter you should avoid those and yeah you should the name for truth for truth himself is God is Jesus and the name of truth is not just God it's Jesus I mean that is wild that is what what made Jesus truth truth I mean that is such a theological BS but Christianity is full of this Christianity is the most bizarre religion I'll do a show on this once I finish the book on Christendom just a bizarre religion I don't know that you can say it's Jesus separate from God isn't Jesus God and God Jesus and it's the trilogy is all one name for the highest good the sumum bonum in to use an older Latin phrase is God so that's what we're going to orient to all and how do we know that all of our political efforts toward really basic stuff and by the way what common denominator in what world does Michael and I have anything I mean anything in common in what world are we on the same side of the issue in what world are we trying to do the same thing when he just told you it's all about God you want to form alliances with this guy we're in the same big tent to fight the left no we're not he's just as evil as the left there's no difference I mean in many respects Orban I really like he's really humble about it because he'll say look we're a country of 10 million people we're not going to lead anything we're not going to be the dominant hegemonic power ever we're landlocked are you kidding me but because of the unique circumstances of Hungary it's got this weird language that nobody speaks it's a pretty coherent people the country's 1100 years old we've been able to preserve this thing and maybe we could look and learn some lessons because there's one statistic but what is it that Hungary has right are they happier than we are no if you ever be to Hungary are they richer than we are no do they innovate more than we do no do they have a great civilization that they built no what is it about Hungary that we should emulate listen to this stick that shows you how these ideas are playing out in society every single country in the west is dying is literally dying not having enough people to replace themselves and the birth rates generally continue to plummet one country has started to turn the birth rate problem around coincidentally it's the one that says I mean I is not the top priority family country and God is pretty simple stuff I'm not saying I we're going to skip that but I do want to make this show you this this is this is the since they care so much about birth rates so this is Hungary 1.56 Hungary is not a particular religious country but Hungary is subsidizing childbirth so if you have children you get a small subsidy notice that the Czech Republic a very liberal I'd say and very secular society society has higher birth rate than Hungary Poland which as a society is significantly more religious than Hungary the Polish are Catholic and they're you know Hungary don't go to church that much they don't consider themselves religious if you have the Hungarians on the street Polish much more religious and yet lower birth rates by the way the only western country in the world that actually has well above replacement it's not Hungary 1.56 is not particularly it's not anything to you know to be get excited about but the one country that does have a birth rates that are significantly higher is Israel now primarily because the religious the religious in Israel but not only secular Israelis as I've told you before having above replacement only country in the world secular society has above replacement so even by the measure of childbirth yeah I mean nothing particularly promising here and again you know their adoration of Hungary of the right today is so ridiculous could if they've at least have chosen a richer country a more successful country a more innovative country a more creative country a more civilized country they chose the backwater of Europe one of the backwaters of Europe in relatively speaking and they chose a country that is this poor they chose a country that depends on the country and they chose a country that is not as religious as they want to believe it is Oban talks more about religion to his Western audiences and he does to his local audiences because it resonates more with Michael Knowles and Tucker Carlson than it does with his own people what Hungary is this is true is it doesn't like immigrants and that's what really got Oban his popularity is his anti-immigration stance and that's what they really dislike