 Conference is being recorded. Welcome to TechSoup Talks. This is Kami Griffiths from TechSoup. And our webinar today is about managing IT volunteers. I am joined by Jane Cravens from Coyote Communication. And here we are. I'd like to introduce Jane. She is an internationally recognized professional, more than 20 years experience working with nonprofits in various countries. And I just had to say it was really, that's not me, that's Jane doing that. When I asked Jane to help with this webinar, she was in the process of moving back to the U.S. from Germany, and just was like, sure, I'd be happy to help. And so thank you, Jane, for helping out with this webinar. Would you like to say a little bit more about your work? Well, yes, I would. Actually, what I'll just say is I have been doing things with regard to nonprofits and technology since 1994. And that does not make me a veteran. Actually, nonprofits have been doing things with technology since the 80s, if you want to count Internet technology only. So this really isn't new. It seems like it's new, but actually what we're going to be talking about are rather tried-and-true methods that have come down over the years. So I just want to say that I've been doing this for a while, and I'm really looking forward to this presentation. Great. So let's get started. The agenda is pretty basic. We're going to, we've done our introductions. We're going to do a little interview. I've got some questions here for Jane. And then we're going to open it up at about 20 minutes to the top of the hour for questions. We will be taking questions throughout the presentation via the chat. So if something is said and you're curious to have a question, please send it in through the chat. We'll be collecting those questions and either I'll ask them during the presentation or we'll hold them until the end during the question and answer period. So why don't we just get started? And so Jane, what do volunteers do to help organizations with computer and Internet-related tasks? Okay, well I'm going to review some of the things that I'm familiar with, and I just want to say that this is a general idea. Your mileage may vary. There's nothing in stone about how IT volunteers really help nonprofits. I like to divide them up into two categories, how IT volunteers help. There's the short-term assignments. And by this I mean things that people do over a few days, over a few weeks, even maybe a couple of months. But they have a definite start date, a definite end date, and the volunteer has no obligation to pass this. So when I say short-term assignments, I mean things like hosting a workshop at your nonprofit organization to help everybody learn to use a particular tool like what we're using now. What a great IT task that would be is to have somebody come and teach you all how to use this tool yourself. A volunteer can come in and update the virus software on everyone's computer. Some computers do that automatically, but sometimes you need a human to just come in and make sure everything is the way it should be. So that's a great short-term assignment. A volunteer can come in and critique your website regarding accessibility. And even though the seminar is on accessibility, you will hear me refer every now and again to making sure that you're accessible for people with disabilities. There's a lot of great IT volunteers out there that have some physical disability issues. And you want to make sure that you don't lose that talent. So having your website evaluated is a great short-term activity. And you can also have a volunteer come in and evaluate candidates for a long-term IT position. It can be a volunteer position or a paid position, but I know I don't always know how to evaluate people. And then you have the longer-term assignments. So these are things that are ongoing. They can provide technical support for your organization's website on an ongoing basis. They can develop and support a client database, or an internal Wiki space, or really any sort of tech tool. They can serve as your on-call help. You need help with your computer. It's nice to talk to a human being. They can even develop and oversee a tech-related strategy for the next one to three years. So you see, I divide them up that way. Either way, I think it's important that you always give volunteers a date when they could resign. So I'm big on even on the long-term assignments telling volunteers in three months, tell me if you still want to do this. And that way, they always have an out. So those are some of the things that IT volunteers can do. And again, your mileage may vary. You can come up with other activities. There's no limits. So now that I've decided I want to use a volunteer, what's the first step that I take to getting them involved? Okay, the very first step is that you need to identify tasks. This is absolutely important. Don't do anything else. Don't recruit. Don't do anything. Sit down and think about what these volunteers could do. Ask your staff and ask your volunteers. Don't just ask staff about their needs regarding computer and internet use. Although I have to say, I heard something really great the other day. Somebody said, don't ask that. Ask what do you need to do? And then say, well, could computers and internet help in doing that? So that's also another question. But ask staff and volunteers. And ask more than once. Do it formally. Do it informally. Do it in groups. Do it over coffee. Just make sure that you do it, that you identify tasks first. We will not talk about recruiting. I'm going to warn you now. I already see the question. It's going to come at the end. Because identifying tasks is the most important thing. It's the most important step in getting this done. So you could sit right now and start making lists of things that you think IT volunteers could do. That's a way that you could get something out of this workshop. So definitely want to do that first. And you need to make sure these tasks are in writing. And I know that seems like really bureaucratic, but people need expectations clear. So it's really important. Name the task. Describe the task. And here's a P. Look at that third bullet. Description of why the task is important to the organization. A friend of mine says, restaurants don't advertise by saying, we have all this food at this restaurant. Come down and help us eat it. They say instead we have really delicious food and it's good and it's good for you. Do the same thing. Why is this task important? That's a really great motivator. If you build this website it will help us reach thousands of people instead of just a dozen. So make sure you put that in there. Very important, what staff member is going to be the primary support for the volunteer? Volunteers need support. So what staff member is going to provide that support? Or answer the emails, give them the information they need. And a description of what the support will look like. Will they come on site for meetings? Will they get a workspace, et cetera? And you definitely want a timeframe for the assignment. When does this assignment need to be done? Does it need to be done in a month? Does it need to be done in three months? And be very clear about the commitment from the volunteer. Is this a one-time thing? Will they need to do some online meetings? Again, this seems very bureaucratic, but if you can't do this you're not ready to involve an IT volunteer. You're really not ready to involve any volunteer. You need to have all of this in writing even if it's just for your own reference. You need to have all of this in writing for each and every volunteer task whether it's IT volunteer or not. So that is the first step. That's something you can get started right after this phone call. And then if we move to this next slide. Trouble putting tasks in writing. It's not as easy actually as it sounds for many people. If you really are thinking, I don't know what to do. I don't know what task to identify. How about your first task? Is it a volunteer comes in and helps identify tasks for IT volunteers? That's a really great assignment. When I don't know how to do things, sometimes I recruit a volunteer to help me know how to do it. So that can be your very first task. We need an IT volunteer to come in and work with our staff, interview staff and volunteers about their use of IT, their training needs, and to help us identify specific tasks that IT volunteers can help with. So I've already written your first assignment for an IT volunteer. So when we talk about recruitment, I'll be expecting to see that assignment all over the place as you recruit volunteers to help you with this. Okay, so now we're ready to talk about recruitment, right? You know, you would think. You would think now Jane is going to talk about recruitment and Jane is going to deny you that and not talk about recruitment yet because before you recruit, you need to think about how you are going to interview these candidates. How are you going to screen them? How are you going to respond to them quickly? Are you going to interview everybody next week? Are you going to take a few days? And indeed it needs to be within a few days, not weeks. You need to ask for full CVs or resumes, examples of work, depending on the assignment. Don't be afraid to say to a candidate, I don't understand what you just said. Could you explain? Because many times technology volunteers have a very different language than us normal folk. And so you need to ask for clarification and it will give you a really good idea of how that volunteer will be in working with, how it will be to work with that volunteer if you feel comfortable with the interview. Now you look at this and you say, well, Jane is talking about hiring somebody. And maybe I am. I view involving volunteers a lot like hiring a staff person. Volunteering is a pay rate. Volunteers aren't paid and a staff member is paid. But that said, everybody still needs to be interviewed and screened. You need to make sure they are the right person for the right job and that they really do understand this is a real commitment. So don't be afraid to have some quality control issues with your volunteer. They will appreciate it. In the end, the person you pick will really appreciate this process. They will feel like they are very taken care of. So what would an organization look for in a night here? My questions tend to be, of course you need to ask about expertise and whatnot, but I like asking this question. And how does the person feel about working with people where computers and the Internet are not the priority in business operations? Non-profits a lot of times, their clients are the priority. And that is what they want to talk about is the people that they serve. So make sure that the candidate can express how he or she feels about working with people who that isn't a priority. And they are not going to perhaps respond to the language that might be appreciated in the corporate world. So make sure that the candidate understands your business operations, your priorities, is going to respect that, and is able to talk to people whose IT experience may not be as advanced as theirs. You want to feel really comfortable with this person. You are putting a lot of trust in this person. You want to make sure this person can appreciate people who don't have a great deal of computer or IT knowledge, but are experts. Perhaps they are experts in child psychology. Perhaps they are experts in performance management. So you really want to feel the candidate out. And this third bullet is very important to me. Ask the candidate how he or she will know that the services that the volunteer is going to provide are successful because I think sometimes we have different ideas about what success looks like. And the volunteer may walk away and say, wow, I did a great job creating this tool for this nonprofit. And the nonprofit says, I don't know how to use this. So have that at the very beginning, these questions you are going to ask the candidates. You are not trying to trip anybody up. You are just trying to get a feel for who they are and what they do. And maybe you will only get one application. You are only interviewing one person. Still interview that person. It really will set the tone for the entire relationship you are going to have with this person. Okay, so are we ready to talk about recruiting? Recruiting, James, please talk about recruiting. Yes, now we can talk about recruiting. But I want to emphasize again, everybody, you really do need to do those other steps first. Please, as I am going through this list, don't start posting your assignments. You really need to have all of these descriptions for the jobs. You need to be thinking about how you are going to process these people when they come in. Many of you who have worked with IT volunteers know this. When they call you, when they respond to your post, they are ready to help right then. They are not going to deal well with, okay, we will call you in three months. They are not going to be available in three months. So with that said, recruiting is the easy part. Recruiting is very easy. It is all the other things that were harder. There are various websites you can recruit from. Volunteer Match is excellent. Idealist is another excellent one. Craigslist is hit or miss. In some parts of the country, of the U.S., it is a great resource. In other parts of the country, no one ever gets any volunteers from that. So check yours out, see how it is. Also check your local volunteer center. You know, many communities have a local volunteer center. They may not have a website, but they may have other ways that they communicate with the community. Find your local volunteer center. Call your local United Way. You can even call the local newspaper. They will probably know that local volunteer center. Make sure your assignments are posted there. There are career centers and volunteer centers at colleges and universities. So no matter how small the college or how large the university looks at the career center and the volunteer center, two different things, make sure you post there as well. You have also got IT departments at large corporations in your area. I worked very briefly in the private sector and continued to call that company, which is a hard drive company, the IT department, and say, why don't you guys come help me do this? And they were always excited to, but I had to have everything ready so that they could walk in, do it, and walk out. So IT departments at large corporations are great resources for these volunteers. Make sure that in contacting them, you also contact the corporate giving officer as well because that person is probably responsible in some way for employee volunteering. Make sure your needs are on your own organization's website. Make sure it's all there. That's when I have recruited online volunteers for myself at a nonprofit. That's pretty much the only resource I have needed. So please make sure your information is on your own organization's website. If you don't want to repeat information again and again, just provide a summary and then link to volunteer match or idealist so that people can get more information. And finally, your current volunteers, their families, their friends, those are all great resources for recruiting. So be sure that you are letting those people know that you have these needs and they can have a roommate, they can have a daughter or somebody who would be really excited to help you. They may put something on their online social networking site. They may tweet it. But be sure your current volunteers know about your IT questions. And believe me, all of these recruiting methods work. They work so well that don't be surprised if you have to take everything back off after a few days because you may get overwhelmed with applications. That's a really good point. I have a quick story to share because your fourth bullet reminded me of someone who said they found an IT volunteer in their building who worked for a corporation and he would just come down on his lunch hour. So for those of you who might have local businesses, if you could tap into their IT if they're in the neighborhood, then it seemed like a perfect fit. He was getting to give his time on his lunch hour before after work and they got some free help. Somebody wrote and asked about a conflict of interest. It says if you, is it still considered a conflict of interest if you are an employee of a large company but approach them for assistance? And I guess what you mean is if you work at, let's say IVM, but you also volunteer at a nonprofit and you ask IVM if they would volunteer at that nonprofit. It really, it's almost a case by case basis. If it's nothing that you are going to benefit from financially, no, it's not considered a conflict of interest. As a person who ran a corporate philanthropy program, what I would look for is I would make that person still go through the application process for asking for that kind of help because I wouldn't want any employee to be able to say, will you help to their nonprofit? I want you to help mine. So I would make them jump through the same hoops. But if they jump through them, sure, why not? Okay, so we're going to move on to the next question. What about supporting the IT volunteer? The only way you're going to keep these volunteers is if you support them. And it's not a matter of saying, here's the job, do it, buy. Volunteers and staff members and everybody, they need more support than that. The support is what is going to make them want to come and do this again until their friends would have fantastic time they had with you. So you want them to have a robust, robust task description with clearly defined expectations. You're entering into a contract with each other even if you're not signing a contract with each other. That's how you should approach it so that everybody knows what's expected. They need to have a key contact person at the organization who's going to give them support. If they have a question, who are they going to call? If they send an email, is that person going to respond to them quickly? And that may not be the volunteer manager who provides that support. It could be the marketing manager. It could be anybody. It depends on the task. So make sure that's clear that they have a contact person who knows his or her obligation to that volunteer. I just can't emphasize it enough. The volunteer needs to understand why this service matters to your organization. They really need to know the answer to this question. So what? They really need to know the answer to that question. So what? And finally, make sure they're recognized and rewarded in the same way as any other volunteer. If you give away pens or pens from Kentucky, they sound the same. Or invitations to events or t-shirts, etc. That volunteer is just like your volunteer that helped down at the homeless shelter or that served food. They're a volunteer. They should be recognized the exact same way. I'm seeing another question over here. What about understanding and speaking their language? I speak volunteer, but don't feel like I can explain what we need done with tech. And sometimes don't know the possibilities to clearly explain our desired outcome. Well, from the tech point of view, all I can say is you need to work and work and work on your language because it is your responsibility to make sure the organization understands. I know what I do, and I tend to write out a great deal of what I want to accomplish when I'm working in IT. And I take out all the IT jargon. I take out a lot of things that to you all may sound really normal, but I try to talk more about people. I try not to use the term online social networking because it's just jargon. I talk about how you connect with people, how you get your message out to people, how you get your message out to youth, etc. Again, you need to work on your language as much as possible. The more that I read the literature of the people that I'm trying to help, the better my language skills are at being able to communicate with that organization or whatnot. So I really try to see how they communicate what words they use, and I try to use the same terms. I'm going to go ahead and jump to resources if that's okay and answer the questions that are coming in that I swore I wouldn't look at and I'm looking at now. It's hard not to. It's hard not to. There's so much excitement. There are so many resources. Here's the great news. There's so many resources out there to help you. You're not alone. This is something that's been done for years and years and years. There's great experience out here. First of all, I have a resource called Finding a Computer Network Consultant, which I'm very proud of. I hope you will check that out because I talk about how you screen people. I think screening is important to find just the right person who speaks your language. Short-term assignments for tech volunteers is something I worked on with the TechSoup community, the community that we'll refer to that we hope you'll post questions to. This has been an ongoing discussion for people to come up with assignments, short-term assignments that tech volunteers can do, and this list has just grown and grown and grown over the years. And then I have a resource called Pro Bono, or InKind, or Donated Services, for mission-based organizations, and it's geared towards both people who want to donate their professional services and people, nonprofits, who want to receive those services. And I hope that these three resources will expand on everything I've said today. Energize, Inc. is an amazing resource. This is run by Susan Ellis. She is a volunteer management guru. She's amazing. I am her disciple. She is just phenomenal. And her website, in addition to selling volunteer management books and resources, has information on conferences, volunteer management conferences, volunteer management workshops, a thing called DOVIA, Directors of Volunteers and Agencies, and these chapters all over the country. Those are meetings and resources that are probably right in your community, free, that you can go and be a part of. So definitely, definitely check out her website and sign up for her newsletter. Your voice cut off, I mentioned her name. What's her name? Susan Ellis. She should be Dame Susan Ellis. She's amazing. And a special announcement, another fantastic resource is the newly revised, Working with Technical Volunteers from TechSoup. And let me tell you something, this is a resource in its original form back in the 1990s, those ancient dark times that I used repeatedly when Confumentor placed volunteers with agencies. I used this resource a great deal and was thrilled to hear that it's been updated. I've just scanned it a little bit, the updated version, great information, free, everybody needs to look at it. The worksheets are particularly wonderful. And so definitely have a look at that. And all of these resources together, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say, I can't imagine you won't find an answer to your question if they're not in there. They really are all together very detailed. So you're not alone and you're not in unchartered territory. You can do this. There are so many IT volunteers out there just ready and really wanting to help you. And if you can be ready to give them a good and needy experience, they'll keep coming back again and again. They could become donors. And when they found that fabulous multi-million dollar company, I'm sure you'll be the focus of their donating efforts. We could be so lucky that the next Bill Gates is out there. Make sure he has a great experience at your organization. I wanted to go back to something you had said earlier about make sure to contact the community giving person if you're contacting an organization for volunteers. And to point out that a lot of companies would give money as well as volunteers. And some companies only give money if you're using their volunteers. So be mindful that you may also be able to utilize those resources for funding as well as volunteers. That's a great point. Again, as a person who was on that end, I was a corporate giving person at my only for-profit experience. And we had to really look for organizations to give away money to and to give away volunteers to because we weren't Microsoft. We had several hundred employees, but for some reason we weren't on anybody's radar screen. So go dig out that copy of the business journal that listed the top 50 employers. And just because you haven't heard of the company does not mean they don't have a corporate giving program. And as Cammie said, a lot of organizations, a lot of companies won't give money unless their staff are involved as volunteers in some way. So now we've had several great questions coming to the chat. So I'm just going to start with one of the first ones that came through. Do you think this would be, Michael said, will this also be applicable to student interns paid or volunteer? Yes, let me be very clear. When I say pro-bono consultant, intern, executive on loan, whatever it is, if you aren't paying them, they're a volunteer as far as I'm concerned. I even treat when the court puts somebody in my path and says, this person needs to work off hours because they have a driving conviction or whatever. I treat that person as a volunteer. I'm not paying them. But that doesn't mean they might not have fantastic IT skills I could really use. So pretty much if I'm not paying the person, they're a volunteer. So yes, whatever you want to call the people you aren't paying, I think it applies to them. And if they want to be called an intern, as long as you have a policy around that, that's fine. Or a pro-bono consultant, whatever they want to be called. John Irv. I'm just wondering about students versus people who have been working in the industry for a while. Do you find that they require a little more managing and training? Not at all. I haven't found that there's any particular demographic that needs more management and training than any other. I really haven't. I've known people who, as long as my expectations are clear, if I need the person to be there at 9 o'clock, I need the person to get this done in three months, they could be 14 years old, they could be 90. As long as I'm clear about that, they're fine. What I find when I have problems is when expectations are not clear. And that can be with a hotshot corporate executive, that can be with a university student. So then that leads into one question about policy, and you had mentioned it already. So Phillip has a question, is having a written volunteer policy important? Yes. You must have a written volunteer policy. And luckily, if you go to Google and type in sample volunteer policy or volunteer policy, you will get a plethora of examples of volunteer policies. And as far as what should the policy cover, again those examples will tell you. You don't want to come up with any policies for volunteers that are not the same for staff. So don't say, well, all of the volunteers have to be criminally background checked, unless you also do that with staff. No double standards now. But yes, you do need a policy. There are lots of samples out there. You can plagiarize to your heart's content. And then also Susan Ellis does feature a lot of books for purchase on writing volunteer policies. But to be honest, I use other organizations' policies. And I go to a site called Workforce.com. That's Workforce.com. It's a HR site. It doesn't have anything to do with volunteers at all. But sometimes I find a policy, say I need a laptop policy. And I just take up the word employee and I put in the word volunteer and there's my policy. So I'm not above that. I'm not ashamed. So there's a question, a couple of questions from Karen. One that I would like to address because I have some experience in this area, but I think it will create an interesting discussion. So here's one of the questions. We have a job description posted, but recruiting is not going well. People are not applying to teach and offer the workshops we would like to offer at our older adult community center. We do have a website and it is posted there. People are intimidated though. They do not seem to think they can teach any ideas. Would you consider this an IT volunteer job when it comes to teaching computer skills? You know, I would. I think semantics. I mean, let's be honest, pretty much what I've talked about, you could apply to any volunteer position. I think you need to make sure you're really outreaching. You're not only just using one source to recruit, make sure you're using a lot. But this might be a case where the web just isn't the best recruitment. This might be a case where you need to go and you need to speak to classrooms. You need to speak to groups. You need to stand up in front of that Linux users group and talk to them personally about this activity. It's a good idea to make sure they know what training that you're going to provide. And if at all possible, have a co-presenters. I find that people who have never presented before feel much more comfortable if they're going to co-present with somebody. And you can say, okay, you're responsible for this 10 minutes and you're responsible for this 10 minutes. What's nice about that, too, is that the group hears from different people and they get a break and it's not the same person talking. So that's another idea. But that's a case where you may need to do some face-to-face. Also, you might want to go to people who are training to be presenters, go to Toastmasters, go to marketing classes. Now you wouldn't think those were IT people, but indeed a lot of times there are IT people in those type of scenarios that would love to present. So don't just necessarily go to the IT class at the university, go to the marketing class at the university, or whatnot. But again, remember that you can do face-to-face recruiting as well. And the one thing I would add is how you're crafting the description. If you're making it sound intimidating like you're going to lead a class of 20 people, might seem intimidating, whereas the experience I've had is if you frame it as a computer tutor or that you're going to be working with basic computer skills and that people already have these skills and generally the teacher will know more than the students. If there's a way to frame it that way, if that is indeed your situation, I think you'll have a lot more people saying, yeah, I know how to do office and word. I feel like I could show somebody else how to do it. It's less intimidating than thinking they're going to be in front of a bunch of people staring at them. That's a great point. So the one last, another question here, another problem we had. We had an IT volunteer that was egotistical, did not get along with other volunteers who did not have as high a tech level that he had. And we had to manage his behavior. He did not go well after he left the organization. And I know I've heard this one personally several times and I've experienced it myself several times. So what do you have to say about that? Well, it's going to happen with any volunteer. It's one of the reasons I'm so big on the interviewing process. I had somebody tell me recently that IT volunteers don't really need to be interviewed. You just need to make sure they've got the skills. I'm very big and sitting down with a person and asking them questions and seeing how I feel with them. Because if they intimidate me, if they use language that is confusing to me, if they seem egotistical, I am probably not going to work with that person. And I'm also very honest. And I say, I really need to feel at a certain comfort level. And I need to have a lot of handful holding. And I'm not sure that you understand just how much support and touchy feeling that you need to do at an organization. It's okay to say no to somebody in the beginning if it just doesn't feel right. It's also okay to fire a volunteer, believe it or not. And there's another thing you can go into Google, how to fire a volunteer. And you will find all sorts of information on how you do that. It's uncomfortable. The reality is we work with people and when we work with people there will be conflicts. It goes the other way too. I know a lot of IT volunteers that go to nonprofits and they say, they said they needed this help. And then they just acted like I was a paperweight, they didn't treat me well, etc. So again, the more prescreening you can do and talking to each other, the more likely you are going to reduce that risk of getting the wrong person for the wrong job. If you get the wrong person for the wrong job, we are all grown-ups. We are all professionals. You should have a policy on how to handle that. And if expectations are clear, you can say, here are the things you are expected to do. You have not done them. What do you think we should do next? I'll be honest, I have never had the fire a volunteer. I've talked any volunteer I wanted the fire in quitting with that method saying, you know, here's what you agreed to and here's what's happened and so what do you think should happen? And so yeah, 99% of the time they've said, it sounds like this isn't working out. Just remember, you run an organization. You have things that you need to do. Sometimes people's feelings are going to be hurt, but as long as you are professional and just passionate, you will be able to handle those crisis situations which I hope are few and far between. You will be able to handle them well. And Cammy, do you have anything to add to that? I do. I think that having a discussion like that is a perfect opportunity for them to leave. They might have over thought that they could take on this job that they had all sorts of plans on helping out in lots of different ways and life got in the way, work got busy, but they didn't want to tell you. They felt bad. There's this guilt thing that happened that I've seen it over and over and over again where they just don't get back to you or they're doing. It's clear that it's not working out and they're just kind of avoiding it. So if you have that discussion like, hey, is this really working? They'll say, well actually, my work got really busy and it's a perfect opportunity for them to say, is it okay if I don't volunteer for you right now? And it's actually a good way to kind of close that door and just say, well, when you're not as busy, please think about us and come back. And that way you're keeping things on good terms. So I wanted to move on. Unless Jane, did you have anything else? No, that's it. Okay, there's a good question from someone who works at a library who manages over 50 volunteers to lead their computer classes and work on digital literacy. And they have too many volunteers. And how can I tactfully limit the number of volunteers when they keep on coming? My management thinks that I cannot have too many volunteers and I think I have about 15 too many. Any suggestions? First of all, I want to congratulate you for your excellent recruiting messages. That's really fantastic. Good for you. Sometimes I know how I would prune volunteers what I would base it on, availability and whatnot. I'm very big into being honest and saying to people, we just don't have time. We have too many volunteers. I'm going to have to let some of you go. When I do that, however, I always try to also be an outplacement agency. And I have usually called some organizations so that I can say, we are not going to be able to utilize your skills. Here are four organizations that can and are waiting for your phone call because I think that's very important. But yes, you can have too many staff members. You can have too many volunteers. Not enough work to go around. I usually base to whom I give work to on seniority. If somebody has been with me for three years and they are available for an assignment, they've earned it. And it's something that they really enjoy doing. For the new people, if somebody comes in and I've recruited and I get too many people, I really do try to steer them somewhere else. Having already talked to that organization to say, I'm steering you some really amazing people. But it's not easy to prune. It's so hard to tell people that we can't involve you. We are having to cut back your hours. I mean, it's hard to do when you are paying people. Then you are telling people who just want to volunteer the goodness of their heart or whatever. Sorry, but it does happen. So come from a place of real sincerity and honesty about it. And the big people will show you how big they are, and will appreciate it. Down the road, who knows? They could come back when there is more work to do. And Kami, what do you think? I think there is also part of this question that I didn't ask, which was my issue is managing this large number when I also have a number of other tasks. And I think what's interesting is the way that you answered it is something that was important to touch on. But I would recommend finding a volunteer to manage your volunteers. But it's a big responsibility that you are giving them. So ensure that there is somebody that you can trust and rely on. And what about these other tasks that you have? Is there a way that you can get a volunteer to help you with the other tasks? So if there is actually a large need, then I wouldn't stop getting the volunteers. If you have more coming, I would just find a volunteer to manage the volunteers. And even having a volunteer leadership council or some way of really involving the volunteers in the decision-making of how you are using them and what programs they can help offer. Okay, had I known that the rest of the question was that too, that too would have been my answer. Kami is exactly right. Volunteers can manage other volunteers. It's absolutely true. Recruit a volunteer, volunteer manager. Recruit a volunteer project leader. You absolutely can do that. And look for a certain skill set. It's not an easy assignment to recruit people for, but indeed she is right. You can do all that. But I think you bring up a really good point about not taking people on because I know many people in my life are looking for jobs and they're looking for volunteer opportunities. And when even the volunteer opportunity doesn't come through, it's a real blow on their esteem. So there's also esteem. And I have been a volunteer manager where I realized that person's skill set isn't a good fit. And it's just not going to work out. And it's a hard conversation to have. I don't enjoy that part of doing that job. So I'm glad we were able to talk about that. Two questions came up that are similar about how do you know if someone's truly qualified when you don't know enough about the technology? And the other question that's very similar is that we hired someone that duped us into believing that they had skills that just wrecked our files. So we could talk about kind of risk management and how do you know if that person is right? Is there a way like checking references and things like that? Okay, those are great questions. And I'm glad risk management isn't just about criminals because the damage that volunteers do, or staff members for that matter, tend not to be criminal. They tend to be these type of things where someone wasn't qualified to do something or was in a bad mood or whatnot. When I interview for somebody, whether they're volunteer or staff, and I am screening somebody for a task that I am not an expert in, I bring in somebody who is that expert. I will get a volunteer, executive on loan, whatever. I will call around and say to somebody that I know for sure is qualified and does have his background and say, I need you to come in and help me screen for such and such position. And I ask them to write questions out beforehand. We talk beforehand about what they're going to ask so that I can make sure so that I can see what kind of questions they're going to ask. And I can kind of learn from the experience myself. I had to interview a website manager, somebody who knew all sorts of database platforms that I don't know what they are. I'm not a techie. And so I got somebody from a different department. I was in a very large organization to come in and sit with me and have questions. Recruited volunteer to help you screen IT volunteers. That's a really great, easy assignment for somebody to do, to just come in and to help you screen volunteers. That's a really great assignment. It's very appealing. I don't think you can screen too much because if it's a very important assignment, if it's a matter of is there a test that they could take, is there certification that they need to prove, et cetera, references are really important. It's nice when people provide references, but you need to make sure you're calling them as well. And again, if you don't have the background to call those references to check, recruit someone to call those references. Ask your board of directors. A lot of times your board is in a large organization. And if you go to a board member and say, is there someone ahead of your IT department could they come and review this stack of applications and help us pick finalists? Could they come in on Thursday all day and interview people? That's a really great assignment. That's something that a lot of people actually really want to do. So that's what I would say, find the expert. Recruit an expert to help you. Don't try to do it on your own. And lastly I'd say, it happens. It's going to happen. Sometimes you're going to hire the wrong person for the wrong job. You will never be 100%. It can be so disastrous when it's the IT person and they mess things up. So just the more you can evaluate a candidate, the more likely you're to reduce the risk, but know that you'll never entirely get rid of the risk. Oh, and one more thing, if you don't feel capable of supervising this volunteer's work, recruit someone who could. Someone who could come in and look at the person's work and make sure that volunteer knows there will be somebody coming in and looking at their work. A lot of times that will screen a bad volunteer right out the door. That volunteer will suddenly not be available for this job. If they know someone is going to be screening, looking at their work and evaluating it. So that's my rambling. Cammy? No rambling. So the kind of issue that I've faced once before was when a volunteer changed password. And in this case I should have known better. This was a little fellow who was about 16 or 14 or 15. He came to the volunteer orientation with his mom and he was a self-proclaimed hacker and thought it was very funny. And I thought he was kind of kidding, but he wasn't kidding. He actually hacked into the computers and changed all the passwords, which then made our IT person who was very overextended have to spend hours changing them all back. So when it comes to passwords and sensitive information, what would you recommend that a nonprofit do a nonprofit or a library do to retain security and make sure that they are not getting in trouble that way? Okay, again, the same thing that you would do for a paid staff person. If you need to do a criminal background check, if someone is going to have access to client information, you are going to have to do a criminal background check. If someone is going to design your website, no, you probably don't need to do a criminal background check because they are not going to have access to anything. Just as if you show up to clean up a beach, there is no criminal background check on you if you show up to clean up a beach. But if you are going to tutor young people, you can expect the works. For computer and technology, I actually don't think I would involve anyone under 18 if they are going to have access to client information and system-wide information. I don't think I would. And I, in the orientation process, would talk about the policies with regard to theft and sabotage. When people know that what they do is not only not going to be cute, it is going to be criminally prosecutable, they tend not to do it. So you learned a lesson. You trusted somebody who probably 99 other 16-year-olds would have been wonderful in that role, but you got the one who decided to be cute, and that's really bad. So you need to think about if this is sensitive information, if damage could be done, whether it's paid staff or volunteer. Remember, you don't increase your risk because it's a volunteer. A paycheck does not guarantee somebody wouldn't have changed all the passwords and walked out the door. Again, make sure your policies are clear about what will and won't be tolerated. And definitely password changes, that would not be tolerated. That's a really bad one. I can give you another example. Greenpeace has to screen its volunteers that come into its administrative offices all over the world extremely heavily because they get saboteurs masquerading as volunteers who come in to ruin their computer systems. So if you are a nonprofit that has any sort of political focus, I hope you're screening your employees and your volunteers in such a way that you can not get those adversarial type people who are not allowing them access to your very sensitive data. Kami? So that's a really good point and a good place to wrap it up. I apologize to those of you whose questions we didn't get to answer, but if you still have a question, please do post them to our community forum about volunteers in tech. And Jane will be there to answer your questions and there will be a follow-up email with a link to the recording, a link to the PowerPoint, and all the links of the websites that we've talked about today. Yes, please post your follow-up questions to that forum. Please, please, please. In case you didn't hear that, please. So for those of you who might only know TechSoup for the donated software or for these wonderful webinars, we also have articles and guides like the Managing IT Volunteer Guide. We have our community forums which are a very wonderful place to post questions and get answers as well as we have links to events and conferences on our website. And in two weeks we have a webinar about telegreening your work. There will be a link to that registration in the follow-up email as well. And we would like to thank ReadyTalk for their support of this webinar series because of them we are able to offer these for free to the nonprofit and library community. They offer a special webinar for our special training for TechSoup customers and here is the time that these trainings are offered and I will have more information in the follow-up email about that. And actually we've got two more minutes to go. So I'm going to jump over and ask one last question which was effective use of volunteers in technology planning. I know at TechSoup we are always talking about the importance of technology planning. So Jane, what do you have to say about that? Well what I would have to say is not so much for IT volunteers but make sure that you are talking to everybody at the organization including the receptionist and make sure the IT volunteer has access to anyone he or she deems appropriate for technology planning. That's for everybody at the organization, not just one person. So absolutely make sure that IT volunteer has access to everybody. Very good. And Matt and Jane, thank you again. This is awesome. You're just so smart and it was great to hear all of your ideas and stories. And again thank you everyone for attending and there will be a survey that will pop up after this window closes and I would appreciate it if you would complete, take a few minutes to complete that. And please do come back again for future TechSoup Talks webinars. Have a great day everyone. That's kind of creepy. That is so creepy. It was me. Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a great day. Bye everybody. See you on the forum. Thanks.