 So good afternoon and thank you for inviting me here So let's talk about the air quality. We are losing five years of our life to make expectation by find us This is about three times more and we lose by alcohol and for alcohol We can decide how much we want to drink at least till the third class and Different to you and my dreams get bigger by getting older because otherwise we are just paving It's a way to hell with good intentions. So Look II we all talk here just about whether it's better to Get shot or be hung or whatever or is waterboarding better than sharia and cutting off your hands You know, we discussed was it's better to have diapers out of cotton and our pampers These are both stupid systems So if you combine buying one stupid thing with another one, you only come to less bad We think it's environmental protection when we destroy a little less. Yeah. Oh, yes, please reduce your water consumption It's Starbucks. You can see one die one napkin a day. Yeah, it reduces. Please protect the environment That's funny. It's the same if I would say please protect your child beat your child only five times instead of ten times Yeah, it's not protecting. It's only minimizing damage and in this logic Yeah, if example, Poland has been protecting the environment so much better than France just by unefficiency So if you're making the wrong things perfect, they're just perfectly wrong so We aiming to strange things like zero emission. You can only have zero emission and you don't exist Did you hear all these idiots talking about product life cycle? Did you ever see a life in a coca-cola can? Yeah, so we're projecting life in dead things a life cycle and from that we come to durability Because we want to live forever our product should live forever, but a coca-cola can is not living There's no life in it. This is not scientifically at all. It's just stupid Zero emission you can only have zero emission when you don't exist Even if you'd shoot yourself right now, you would have emissions. So these are worlds which don't make sense a city wants to be climate neutral How I think you cannot only be climate neutral when we are not existing Or did you ever see a climate neutral tree just one? Yeah, so with all our brain We want to be more stupid than a tree. Did you ever see a low carbon tree low carbon tree? Yeah, this is just perverse so look This tree is carbon positive. This tree is beneficial for the climate Not zero We define a zero impact and and this country is growing corn at big quantities to make any type of biofuels when you do this you lose between 11 and and 20 and 29 tons metric tons of soil per hectare Yeah, top soil this country lost half of the whole top soil in the last 200 years You said oh, that doesn't matter because we have three meters of top soil now We are down to one meters and 30 But ever but this is like if you jump out of a skyscraper and you said oh it works for 20 floors already Yeah, so this doesn't make sense and you can see this in this eco Modernistic manifesto. Oh, it always was good in the past. Yeah for techno tech technology will fix it We don't have an energy problem. We have a carbon problem. It's a mismanagement of carbon Not energy energy per se. This planet has 20,000 times more energy input than we ever need We talk about entropy and we need to have forces. Yeah, the Sun is the force from the outside And then you look if you just take it look, I'm an engineer and this is unfair and Yeah, so because so I need to know some of the dynamics in detail So give you a trivial interpretation of the Einstein formulation formula so E is energy and M is material. So when you have a big E 20,000 you can make a much better M out of it Sure, it's a whole galactic entropy is increasing, but locally. Yeah, the system gets more and more organized by the abundance of energy So this country is five times bigger than it would be without the Sun because vegetation makes a much bigger space out of it Every leaf makes it an extra space basically for that So we talk about planetary boundaries and system boundaries. The only boundaries are on brain or on thinking or on intelligence Because look we easily could make five planets out of this planet if you wanted to do so When we work look you can do something if you want to minimize your carbon footprint Yeah, you need to wear a bow tie because when you get a little strangled you can reduce the room temperature by Do decrease Celsius in winter in summer it means you need to wear You need to wear a skirt then can reduce the room temperature in the same way Or if you would cut down you cut your hair into one centimeter It would save 3,000 gallons of warm water Yeah, you can easily do so if you want to minimize your carbon footprint just takes elevator We have such a perverse agriculture that we invest 10 calories of energy for one calorie of food So if you take the elevator it only takes two calories So if you want to minimize your carbon footprint by five times just takes the elevator So it's so easy to save the planet So we traditionally take things we make things we put them into landfills We think it's environmental protection when we build landfills or incinerators No, we are only trying to minimize damage locally and all these eco balances are a complete flaw Yeah, and you talk about oh the life cycle of a steel building The steel is the problem because people always only calculate iron and carbon But when you make a car We use 40 different types of alloys with chromium with nickel with cobalt with manganese Antimony with vanadium etc. etc And this is not in any of these life cycle assessments because these are just traces when I was a child A copper ore had 3.5 percent of copper now. We are down to zero point two percent and we call it an ore There's just one European copper mill which makes four times more waste than the whole municipal waste stream of Europe we and and one of the reasons for people dying in earthquakes for example We'd be sources in Turkey in 99 is that United States is exporting their used cars into other countries And they make building steel out of it and because of more efficient use of copper the copper Increases in the recycled steel and and the steel gets brittle and it's zero point five percent of steel breaks like an osteoporosis bone You don't find it in any LCA in any so We first need to say what is the right thing instead of optimizing wrong things in the indoor air quality in the building is about three To eight times worth than outside urban air 40% of the buildings in this country have mold Dutch it's him. Oh, yeah, so Malt yeah This makes asthma asthma is by far the most relevant children's disease in this country. So how can we do this? Look, yeah, we do it. You do there all these things. It's like pot yamkin villages Yeah, we are certifying buildings with silver gold and platinum. How sick? Platinum is one of the most toxic metals and this is the highest level. Yeah, so what are you doing? This is just a little alibi. This is a platinum building the fastest growing peaks I analyze in human milk and muscles milk are flame retardants from styrofoam So look if you want to abuse your child then please be transparent about it because then you're at least honest But to give styrofoam blocks to children. Yeah, this is child abuse Yeah, in the worst case because these flame retardants destroy fertility dramatically. They make cancer Yeah, and it's just such a nightmare, but it's not in any equal balance because it's less than 1% in it Yeah, we don't find it in there. So if you compare styrofoam with whatever type of thing So this is a nightmare. So the building there's five grams of flame retardant per kilogram and it's off-gazing It's taken up when you have no building made out of styrofoam. It's a nightmare You can do so. So what we do is be a romanticizing nature and I'm but I'm doing in testing the stuff I've tried to find out where do we have some contamination in it the peaks of Synthetic carpets are much lower than of natural carpets, but we say oh, we need to use a natural material How sick he did the sheep was never designed to be a carpet So if you try to make a sheep into a carpet and red wine resistant, yeah You need a lot of chemicals here never in touch with it with the wool You're in touch with Teflon and then you actually inhale it a far more toxic. It's a natural material So we want to more efficient. It's in Saigon. Ho Chi Ho Chi Minh City Yeah, there's 300,000 consultants essential to make things more efficient when I was a child and cow was Producing 5,000 litres of milk. I thought this is a lot. Yeah today Yeah, we are up to 11,000 in another lens Yeah, should I squeeze another thousand litres out of this poor cow should I use some genetic engineering? Yeah, to make another pair of legs for for this poor animal that it's more efficient We need if you look at embodied energy, we need to look how we use these materials So you see if you take a Heineken beer the worst thing is the coating There's no green which is green because the green is the most toxic treatment So into in recycling of aluminum it takes four times more energy with the wrong coating Because you cannot you need so much more energy to filter the emission. So you need to look at the coatings We need to look what we actually have in it We need to be defined it positively when you take a general motors vehicle for example It says these brake pads are free of asbestos, but the replacement is antimony sulfate, which is a much stronger cuts in a chin Yeah, but so don't make things free of you need to define what you have The worst thing is that we believe it's an ethical challenge in but but it's not about ethics It's just stupid it to make waste. Yeah, if you're an idiot, you're making waste You don't need ethics for that because under stress like Yeah, I look or you forget about ethics. I was in Kyoto. He was diluting the Kyoto treaty He said oh, we can't do this to our industry. So we generated this feeling by the environmental debate that we are Damaging this invite that you have your pain for this planet, you know, you have one person meets another one and says hey One planet meets another one that you look terrible today and it yes I have homo sapiens and yes, I said yeah, I had it before it will disappear This feeling. Yeah, you see Al Gore talking about overpopulation Overshoot in all these stupid things. Yeah, it makes people basically feel Sorry to be on this planet and when you question the existence I see this with my friends in Israel when you say it's better you're not here and people become greedy and angry And normally they would change generous and friendly But now you make some greedy the environmental debate leads to in overpopulation leads to making people far more Using far more stuff because before you pick it my lunch. I better grab it So this is why we let them die on purpose in the Mediterranean because we think that too many anyways They're paying for the planet. Yeah, so So in Israel we say if you save one planet a one when child you save the planet here Here it says the more you kill the better. Yeah, if it's overpopulation is the worst thing Yeah, so are we too many if you look at the biomass of ants You see the but it's four times bigger than a few minutes and because ants these pigs never take other Elevators yet they work much harder physically they equal about 30 billion people in in their calorie consumption So we are not too many we're just as stupid and the worst of all of them are the architects because they decide about the material flows and just so Instead of talking about zero waste. Let's talk about nutrient management. Let's talk about the right energy sources not about Embodied energy. It's just stupid because if you have the wrong carbon sources and celebrating diversity Traditionally we reduce we avoid we minimize we make our customer enemy So it's not about efficiency. It's about effectiveness what we need to talk about Yeah, for example, when you're your girlfriend is really angry about you 50 roses Completely inefficient but very effective. I can tell you I'll take a lipstick I don't yeah, and it's the same for men and women. So it's not anyhow gender specific You know a lipstick completely un-efficient but very effective. Yeah, so you think about an efficient dinner tonight It's a it's a glass of water and a tablet with some New York flavor. That's efficiency So why do you talk about was about efficiency? It only makes the wrong things perfect Look, it makes sense to it to reduce the use of oil and gas But where is our positive impact? We always define as architects impact negatively. We try to minimize impact Yeah, which makes all people the enemies of this planet. So let's reinvent all the stuff the stuff Which you consume goes into biological Cycles like food like detergents like shoe soles like brake pads. The worst thing are tires Yeah, now tires last twice as long and people think that's good for the environment But the 500 chemicals now get inhaled you have them in your body You pick them up before the rubber hits the road and stayed there now inhale it so we need to distinguish between Consumption and service you don't consume a washing machine. You don't consume a TV said you just use it. It's a service So sustainability is over. It's just history. It was important to learn about it But it's not for the future. No innovation can be sustainable The washing machine was not sustainable for the ones who were washing the clothes and the river the mobile phone was not sustainable for the station or phone manufacturers innovation cannot be sustainable and Sustainability is just guilt management if I ask you as a relationship with your wife. What do you say sustainable? Yeah, I'm sorry for you. So it's about it's about quality beauty and innovation That's it. So it's a triple top line not a triple bottom line It's making buildings like trees cities like forests. You can see this in Europe You can see this four motor companies make buildings like a buffalo. So you need to plan it differently The design is it not to give the embodied energy calculation. It's only because people can measure carbon dioxide They do embodied car It's this is a big project in Europe 200 million euros buildings as material banks Yeah, we can store the materials temporary in it and it's interesting for passports I would like to talk to you more I came over just for this event. I have 15 minutes to talk about it. This is just silly Yeah, why don't you just yeah? This is just useless because it's only superficial with what was that we need to talk about service systems It's nice to compare its stupid aluminum solar panel with a stupid Plastic panel. Yeah, how nice. Yeah, now we need to look look at the system itself We need to make solar systems a service 20 years of harvesting photons Then we come to completely different calculations in the same But you see people buy robots instead of buying the service of a robot in buying 100 million welding points You see buildings we can be differently the happy healthy school for example shows how to do this in the Netherlands We need to get nutrients back how terrible we feel on this planet to be here is that you can see There's not one organic label which allows that my own nutrients can go back It's only organic without me people talk about energy But first state is far more critical the energy side we will fix with it with the Sun But do you want to have teeth? Do you want to have bones? Do you want to store energy in your body then phosphorus is far more critical? We put it just in the United States 60,000 tons of uranium and our agricultural land in the last 20 years There's far more rate in radio activities being spread in the environment. It's used in all nuclear power plants Yeah, but it doesn't exist in any LCA. Yeah, so we need to get nutrients back You see the neck the Netherlands will be the first country You saw similar pictures. Yeah, if you cross these algeas sure it's You can use one hectare of facade equals 80 hectares of of agricultural corn. Yeah We need to enter the food chain at a completely different level with Bacteria with algeas with mushrooms and we could easily feed 30 billion people on this planet Yeah, but when you want to eat hamburgers every day, it doesn't work. I Am the only non architect invited for Biennale in Venice. It's the Olympics of architects And I invite you to be there in one month and it demonstrates how it's about celebrating human footprint Not about minimizing damage. Yeah, and it's about Showing how future can look like it between the passive houses the sealed buildings the one size fits all they do is as Kaisgraver looking the same in Stockholm and Rio de Janeiro and Really looking making regional architecture differently This is the headquarter in Hamburg and it just want to demonstrate it from that perspective It took 150 years between the declaration of human rights in 1765 And as the rights for women to vote in 1919 in Germany Yeah, 150 years more than that So things take time, but we don't have the time not only for my speech So we I'm working together in this country here with William McDonough Yeah, we jointly published cradle to cradle as you know And now you see every idiot doing cradle to cradle, but it's more noodle to noodle of noodle took noodle You have a massive quality problem because people don't get the message They take the traditional stupid recycling and they talk about to embodied energy calculation That doesn't make sense. You need to design it from the beginning differently, but these architects don't have self-esteem yet So they always apply for things that why they just don't really want to be real designers They want to be just beauty fires and for that we are too many people on this planet. Thank you So first thing I checked is this a styrofoam cup and I'm glad it is not Given what I heard I feel like I should not even exist because I should be dead with all the toxicity That is around me. So you're just looking at my ghost right now. Okay, so but fantastic Sort of last half an hour and that I was able to join. I'm an engineer who's Looking at some of the building issues in New York, right and I have to say that Yes indeed this much of what I want to say is kind of optimizing within the narrow space of what the reality is right and and I think It is a challenge of the engineering profession as a whole and I think The profession by itself will not come out of it. It will need Like the whole ecosystem of everybody from thinkers architects Designers engineers construction To really come out of that to give you a simple example If you look at a car okay You put about hundred units of fuel in the car okay about 2022 come out of the engine after the conversion Then about 15 get to the wheel and 14 of that goes to move the car and One part of that goes to move you so Just even ignoring where the car came from and all the embodied energy of the car From The energy you put in to what actually went to move you which is sort of the service you derived from it's supposed to be One percent Now if I go from an ordinary car to a To a Hybrid car I'm changing that one to maybe 1.5 right so it's Just just to give you that Sort of big picture there You know and a lot of people are saying Are we stuck with the? Current paradigm of the car or should we really just rethink from ground up whether it's really You know should it be thought from bicycle up rather than a car down and Because otherwise we are just moving steel you Average speed of A car in new in Manhattan is 11 miles an hour, but it's designed for 70 90 for to withstand impact at those speeds so the Steel actually is to just protect it from something that is a fairly rare event or should be a rare event So anyway, I think I just want to give a couple of minutes on that because I think we are Sometimes locked into a certain paradigm so I Caught a little bit of the last discussion was about air conditioning When I came in I want to talk a little bit about heating we sort of forget sometimes about heating and New York City 70% of the energy goes into buildings that doesn't mean our buildings are inefficient it sort of Or buildings consume way more. It's just that transportation is Lower than other cities so the contribution of buildings seem larger and I think the one part that we forget, you know, so this Red piece and this yellow piece is for heating and that's let's not worry about us made Atlantic, but for New York and between space heating Right between space heating and domestic hot water. It's more than 70% of the end use is for that Which is huge okay for residential buildings. So I think we are we are focused many times our discussion on electricity and air conditioning, right, but heating actually is the dominant use now one of the things Somebody you know about few years ago somebody asked me and we did with a colleague of mine We did a simple back of the envelope calculation using existing Sort of technology is existing materials all that what are the relative proportion of embodied energy versus Operational energy right and if you take into account 50 years of it Embodied actually looks small. What was interesting was that? You know keeping floor area fixed a Cube of about four to six story height, you know, just from a mathematical perspective This is not using any of the amazingly innovative stuff. You guys are talking about this is how things are done today and That was an interesting observation by the way, so that's 50 years worth of Consumption okay, so if I only consider 20 years that would come down and you know if this is using conventional materials if they are You know recycled and so on that would come down But I just wanted to give you a relative idea and and the reason this you know came out somewhere like in the middle is taller buildings actually need more energy to move around the stuff As opposed to a lower height building on the other hand a single floor or two floor building for the same Occupant area would be have more surface area. So so that's Then around some metrics and I think one of the stuff we did around metrics was to really start to characterize you know where This is not for the purpose of the building so that I think a lot of people You know, these are just estimates of energy consumption by building In New York City, so we developed an estimate for the close to one million buildings It's an estimate. These are not measurements and then for each building how much goes where again depends on the building and These estimates were derived primarily by what was the end use what was House how big it was not nuanced by What year it was built and how many people live in it and how they use But the reason for developing this whole thing was to truly understand the system aspect that you can have buildings across from each other You know that one might be actually throwing away a whole lot of energy that this Could use so could it help? Just not designing Building by itself, but by looking also a building by what is around you Now the other thing That is impacting heating a lot is so in air conditioning This number right from one to five Tells you in air conditioning that if I use one unit of electricity How many units of cooling can I get and see over years? It has become from two as much as five Now similar ideas can also be used for heating right now much of our heating One unit of energy leads to one unit of heat and that unit is generally gas or oil so I think that's that's a Question that I'm looking at and the reason I'm looking at it is that you know some of the renewable sources in New York If you look at the blue line through the year That's actually our heating demand. This is our electricity demand Okay The wind which is the red line actually has a huge huge mismatch with this But it's much better match with the heating demand So if I can make that one unit go to three units and Then that unit also is emission free then that's a big plus Whereas currently that unit is purely from fossil and it's a one-to-one conversion If that unit on top of that Sorry, I'll just go back This number how high one can make Depends on what environment one exchanges that heat So if I'm in exchange that with air air temperatures can be pretty low That drives this number down, but if I am exchanging it with the ground I can make that number higher So that's one and and you know So why I say nature and your surroundings become very important, you know your geology Your temperature your wind speeds around you become very important Okay, finally, I have one minute. Maybe two minutes So I'm not going to show so much slides on this, but I want to just talk about something We observed, you know in commercial buildings moving around stuff actually takes up a lot of energy So if I have a tall building, you know, what's this complex systems? I'm gonna just what I want to talk about here is that we So here's what I observe and I actually measure real buildings so first of all Unlike let's say a car or a jet engine that was made in a factory a Building is actually made by real people real construction workers who are showing up trying to follow the drawings And you can easily have factors of to Off from what you intended the design to be then on top of that how it is used By the people who live there can also provide more variability so designers are constantly over specifying building systems and I've tried to sort of find out why and they just want to be not the one designer whose buildings under perform So I'm just questioning if there's a way to think about architecture and design where After the building is used for the first month or two and the reason I say that is unless somebody uses it You don't actually know how it is performing Can we think about Leaving that process more Organic or iterative so that we can actually in the same construction contract change things Because I See I mean it's like absurd. I see 30 40 horsepower pounds running 24 7 When first of all, you know, they could be much smaller and then if you operate them better This is just one. I've seen situations. We have made measurements where 80% of the energy was just wasted circulating stuff around the building So I'm gonna pretty much stop there and I think Global impacts of all this are going to be huge because everybody is basically doing what we are doing And I want to just thank the various students and Staff in the lab. Thank you Get the two presentations together. I think one of them would be Don't you think that we could make far more service systems? if you make a heat pump and As a service system you could make it much cheaper and much better and Like we have no windows on the market where you just sell in 25 years of looking through insurance It changed the whole Embodied energy balance completely when you just sell the service of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so Can I comment on that? Yeah. Yeah, sure. What do you think? I actually think you optimize the system Yes, I actually think so I've done couple of pretty large projects large means Not physically large but large in my mind in Uganda and Mali Across, you know, eight communities each and what was very interesting was there was no legacy infrastructure there There are no legacy systems there and no rules that I had to follow of the bureaucracy And for energy provision We had extensive discussions with the community and we went to a completely service-based approach 100% but we were we had the flexibility right to kind of Work in a situation that was completely, you know, and the challenge I think is That here it, you know, how to go from a system level change is a big issue. Anyway, I just want to say that I I actually found that Both from the engineering side and the customer or the user side The service-based approach Was what stuff? Yeah, so why? I'm a little unhappy with how architects deal with the situation I looked at the curriculum from architects here and and they don't really learn about anything how to deal with material management And I wonder why is it not even two-third of the emissions and Half of all the waste problems are connected to architecture Why is it not a part of what you're learning? Yeah, why is it not really? Yeah, why is it just not existing in and now you're focusing a little bit on the energy side because you can Measure carbon dioxide, but so what overall it's irrelevant. Why don't you make buildings which are designed for human milk? Why don't you design buildings where indoor air quality is better than outside air that my young students would have a Lot of to do positively Instead of that. Yeah, it always is ugly class architecture one size fits all over the whole planet And I think if you want to be a little more Have a little more discrimination if you want to be a little more a designer Yeah, why don't you teach this why it's not part of it? I I prepared myself by looking at the curriculum and I was completely shocked. I said, hey, my god, what are you doing here? This is just yes, it's even not Adam and Eve It's not the alphabet even and it just doesn't exist So what do we do? Yeah, and then when I sit now in the dark here without fresh air I understand it somehow because this is it's like mushrooms here when you put them in the dark and it's the same thing A little bit maybe it's a Symptom of something that we did want to address with this symposium Which is a kind of disconnect between disciplines and you know So we can get into some of the specifics of the curriculum That seems like a pretty long conversation for a short amount of time we have left but I think speaking the same language talking about the values talking about what the You know the the the kind of more important questions are What are the problems with the ways we're doing things now is exactly the point of it of a symposium like this? so I mean that that's a very simple and Partial answer to the question, but but it does sound like We're having a little bit of a kind of language and communication problem because if you think the role of Architecture is only to manage resources, then I think we need to do a lot of setting of Expectations no no no no I say the role of architecture first is health and well-being and that's that and you and you And you don't fulfill that basic need of humans with that yeah, and sure you can repair it later But if you're stealing buildings instead of first saying what is healthy air quality? Yeah, instead you're when you're optimizing wrong things Yeah, you're just making a bigger nightmare and all these composites and also styrofoam insulation It's the worst of the worst. It's chemical harassment. Yeah, and you Why it's nice you see all these things about sexual harassment here on campus But you are teaching chemical harassment here and so this is the same thing Yeah, and so it's not disconnected. It's just to say what is the purpose of an architect? Yeah, and this is to generate healthy environment for humans and then and not about Minimizing footprints by 10% whatever yeah, so that sounds like the topic for a different symposium What is the role of architects because I think that? You know speaking of numbers there might be a 75% of people or more in this room that would disagree with you on that Purpose of architects, but I do want to turn it over to any other questions from the audience We're running a little bit behind time. Yes, but if we can have one or two questions Exactly time to disagree Yeah With your statement because a hundred million people a year don't go in Gothic cathedrals to save energy Right architecture is about the human spirit It's about building for the human spirit the most famous buildings on earth or Gothic probably wouldn't you say? And they're all masterpieces there in the United States or in every country in the Europe That's what architecture is about energy is critically important never more important now than before and the ancients knew it Michelangelo preserve the compadolio didn't tear down the tabularium saved billions of Units of carbon footprints in the atmosphere to save a building and make the compadolio so I agree with you but I think architecture is an art and It's now become an art and an engineering discipline too, and that's very good But I don't think we should lose sight that the two things are married, and I certainly hope they don't get a divorce This is a question for Michael I Can still recall the moment that I read the thesis that we should do more good and less bad When cradle to cradle was first published Since that time you've done a lot of work with industry With a lot of existing and trenched infrastructure in The current past model. I'm just wondering I'm sure that Presented a lot of challenges. I wonder if you can briefly discuss your approach to working with a doing less bad model to to Changing it torture thesis Yeah, definitely. It's a paradigm shift specifically in this country where Religion plays such a key role. Yeah when it says you are evil anyways and maybe for you It's true and only God can redeem you then you only can be less bad Yeah, and the highest thing is to be zero. Yeah, that's just the logic behind it So you cannot celebrate human beings on this planet because religion doesn't allow it here from that logic and So therefore the key question behind it is sure a philosophical one Do you think that evil has its own quality? Yeah, we like to see it in this country the Empire of evil or whatever Yeah, or does it just the absence of quality a building which stinks is just a quality problem Not an ethical thing. Yeah, because ethics disappears under stress in all ways for 95% of us Yeah, so we have a massive architecture quality problem and and we could see this we did we did with spread pitches the buildings in New New Orleans. Yeah, and for low-income people. Yeah, and it's amazing from six seventy six Young children who suffered from asthma before not one of them developed asthma and the new buildings Yeah, so you really it's about you what you can do. Why don't we do a joint campaign against mold in this country? So we it's it's definitely the question is is it dark? No, it's the absence of light Yeah, so it's the absence of quality what we talk about So let's add more quality to architecture because it does architecture doesn't work for 10 billion people There's no doubt about it. So let's talk have a quality discussion That's it. Yeah, so not not an ethical and moral discussion because for you personally it makes good But who commits the worst crimes the Catholic Church because they know exactly what evil is the Vatican Bank whatever Yeah, so they abuse it always to the opposite and it's all around all the religions It's the same thing when you try to to tell people they should behave ethical It's only that say it generate double moral standard Yeah fair play in this country has become just another dirty trick to keep you away from doing the same terrible things And then later people come by and said oh don't take it personal And it's not just think about quality and define quality in a different sense holistic quality like you said it yet It's really about Celebrating architects and but these mean this means that architects just want to have that role on being combining Yeah, art and beauty and human spirit and human intention and design With quality of materials and energy management and that's a challenge and I don't see it in the curriculum here It's just pretty provincial amazingly. That's why a little unhappy with the situation. Yeah, sure So I just have I have one more thing to say but it's It's actually just really that I think it's a fitting plot twist that the Panel that in some sense should have been most objective a panel about metrics Becomes one of the most controversial ones But I did I wanted to have you know one more question and this one is for Professor Modi and Here I I think I'm just Really fascinated by the moment in your presentation when you did the quantitative analysis of buildings in New York City And you found this opportunity where one building across the street from another building You know may have had something to to exchange where there could be some kind of Collaborative relation relationships some kind of cooperation Some kind of reciprocity and that seems to suggest a really fresh opportunity for architecture. Do you have any? kind of observations about What could happen there or examples of How that scenario might play out or who you hope will use this map to find opportunities to do something people are exploiting such opportunities in fact the Groups of buildings that people are thinking about the Brooklyn has some really amazing example of a community thinking Across multiple buildings, but not just energy at that point. They're thinking about energy water Transportation and you know unless they were exposed to the idea of what was all around them They were thinking at an individual building level But it is there are people who are actually starting to think like that now Does do you need information to necessarily do it? Not really you could have still done it yourself, but it just provokes that Thinking yeah, great. Well, thank you very much to both of you