 Good afternoon and welcome to week six of 10 weeks in Jamaica Conversations from Jamaica to the world. My name is Magalie Neff, co-founder and co-artistic director of Akiba Abaka Arts. We are an international theater production company that creates plays, concerts, talks, and processes for making plays, concerts, and talks for the global stage. This series is presented in partnership with Raw Management Agency, an esteemed talent agency representing artists and groups across all genres in film, television, theater, voiceovers, branding, and endorsements. We are very grateful to work in collaboration with Ms. Nadine Rawmanagement's Managing Director and co-creator of this series. 10 weeks in Jamaica Theater Conversations from Jamaica to the World is a talk series that shares the behind-the-scenes stories of Jamaica's theater community with the global theater community and members of the Jamaican and Caribbean diaspora. Each week, Jamaica's leading theater pioneers and practitioners narrate their histories and memories of the Jamaican stage and offer their visions for the future development of theater in this 21st century. The series is made possible by our sponsor and publisher, HollowRound.com, a free and open platform for theater makers worldwide that amplifies progressive, disruptive ideas about the art form and facilitates connections between diverse theater practitioners. 10 weeks in Jamaica is also sponsored by the Martin E. Siegel Theater Center at the City University of New York in Manhattan. The Siegel Center is home to theater artists, scholars, students, performing arts managers, and the local and international performance communities. Now, whether you are joining us for the first time or you have been watching weekly since we started this series on November 1st, we thank you very much for being in our audience today and hope that you will return weekly through the end of the series on January 3rd. I'd like to invite you to click the subscribe button to become part of our growing family and while you're at it, go ahead and click that bell below to be notified of upcoming episodes and engagements from our channel. And hey, go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. We are Akiba Abaka Arts on all platforms. Now, at this time, it is my pleasure to introduce my partner, Machaji, co-founder and co-artistic director, Akiba Abaka, a distinguished director, dramatist, producer, actor, art stirrer, educator. Man, Akiba has been bringing theater to diverse communities throughout her 20-plus year career. I love that. I'd like to be your host and moderator for today's conversation. Welcome, Akiba. Thank you, Ms. Magalie. You're most welcome, my dear. And we both share quite a storied career. Co-founder Ms. Magalie is a teacher with Boston Club of Schools and being a teacher and a theater director working with young people, I know you're gonna really appreciate today's conversation with the playwrights. Like, I mean, man, you have no idea how much I cannot wait to learn. It's always fun to just continue to learn, right? And I'm looking forward to today's conversation. Oh, we have a running bet going. Is the theater the domain of the writers, the actors, the directors, or the producers? I think it's the domain of the writers, but that's because I'm partial to the writers. Right, right. I had to think about that, I don't know. Wow, you're giving me something to think about. Maybe I'll have an answer for you by the end. Awesome, thanks, Magalie. All right. So is the theater the domain of the playwright, the people or the prose, the common language of the people? Or does it encompass all of the above? What is the playwright's role in the formation of culture and national narrative? Today's conversation centers on the Jamaican playwright and their contribution to the narratives of the Jamaican people. This is a two-part series, which will continue next week and it features a small sample of Jamaican playwrights because there are a multitude of Jamaican playwrights in the country and in its diaspora. As a point of entry for today's conversation, we are referencing a statement by renowned Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw when he visited Kingston in 1911. He stated that the next thing you want is a theater with all the ordinary traveling companies from England and America sternly kept out of it. For unless you do your own acting and write your own plays, your theater will be of no use. It will in fact vulgarize and degrade you. In this statement, Shaw was giving his recommendation as to how the country could overcome colonialism. Our guests today will give their own views on Shaw's statement and share how the work that they and their colleagues produce advances Jamaican culture. Playwright producer Basil Dawkins celebrates over 30 years of success in the theater. His journey started as a student at the University of the West Indies where he acted in the Interhall Drama Festival. Since that experience, he has been an award, since that experience, he developed and honed his skills in writing, becoming an outstanding multi-award winning playwright known for writing, engaging drama and comedy at times successfully combining both. He had cemented his position as one of the most talented and entertaining playwrights to emerge from the Jamaican stage. Basil Dawkins was recognized by the Institute of Jamaican, by the Institute of Jamaica in 2004 when he received the prestigious Musgrave Award for his achievements as a playwright and for his contributions to the development of Jamaican theater. Welcome Basil. Hey, Akiba, it's such a pleasure to be here. Such a pleasure to have you. Thank you for being with us. Born in England to Jamaican parents, Fabian M. Thomas is an adjunct lecturer in the Institute of Caribbean Studies at the University of the West Indies at MONA. He serves as a transformational trainer and facilitator, life and corporate coach, poet, or a spoken word artist, actor and published writer. He studied communication and literature at the University of the West Indies at MONA and then went on to earn his master's degree in public communications from Fordham University in New York. He is the founder and artistic director of the Performing Arts Ensemble, tribe Sankofa, which by the way, they are celebrating their eighth anniversary at this moment. Through his work as a social and behavioral change communications consultant, Fabian brings much needed attention to HIV prevention and awareness, youth development, and corporate and social advancement for individuals. Fabian is the host of a YouTube talk show, Fabian Set, and is the co-host of a parenting podcast, She Has Kids, He Doesn't. Welcome Fabian. Greetings from Kingston, Jamaica. Good to be here. Good to be here, Akiba. That's the water one. Peace and love, my brother. We are alive. Fabian, I'm gonna steal your greetings you say. Greetings and salutations. Greetings and salutations. So nice to see you. Thank you for being here. With a theater career spanning almost 27 years, David Tullock is an all-rounder in the Performing Arts. In addition to his more than 100 plays, he has 13 original scores to his credit and appeared in over 200 productions, including The Lion King, For My Daughter, and Across the Bridge with the legendary Leonie Forbes. He was also a member of the cast of Jamaica's longest running soap opera, The Blackbirds of Royal Palm Estate. He played the notorious role of Sobers. David has won over 13, David has won 13 Actor Boy Awards, Seven Thespis Spirit Awards, and three Methuen Awards. He is the general manager and proprietor of the Phoenix Theater Company, and lectures at the University of the Commonwealth of the Caribbean. Welcome, David. Thank you, Akiba. Good afternoon. It's a pleasure to be here. Gentlemen, they go for themselves. Yes. David, if you could turn your camera on. Yes, there is your wonderful face. So starting off this conversation, just to get a little bit of a background on your work and when and where you each enter the theater and hold this incredible title of playwright. Azul, you went to school to study government and the theater captured you. Number one, how did your parents react? And number two, what has that transition been? Like to go from an interest in politics and service into service through the arts? Let me start at the beginning, where I actually am a rural man. I originate from way down in West Modan, which is almost the other end of the capital. So when I came to the university as almost adult or wanting to be adult, it was my first visit into the city. And part of the reason I was here was the fact that I was attending the University of West Indies. So I was a freshman. Now part of the presentation for freshmen during those days was among the things, a play called Smile Orange by Trevor Rowe. And that was if I was forced to see because as a freshman, you had no choice. And I reluctantly went. And when I sat, it was an experience that such I've never had before. My experience of theater before was something at the church or at the school. So this was a very professional offering. And I looked at it and I say, I like that. I think I could do that. But just having watched it and totally mesmerized, totally impressed on my way back to the hall where I lived, I convinced myself that it was not my thing. So freshman week is over. Now it's time for inter-hall theater competition. I was pushed into a crowd scene. I got in it. I had one line. I studied like Shakespeare, sonnet. I got my line altogether. My girlfriend was in the full auditorium and I heard somebody say my line while I was on stage. Only to find out after that I had frozen so badly I never even knew what was happening. And in order for the play to go on, somebody had to say the line. And that was my baptism. But after that, it was straight, a love of fear that continues until today. Awesome. David, your trajectory is a little bit in the reverse of battles, in the sense that you're entering or looking to enter into the world of politics. But you are a child of the stage, a child of the theater who really grew up to become quite the kind of dawn of the Jamaican stage in your age group, I should say. I know Fabian is laughing, but you're quite accomplished with somebody at your age. Tell us about this transition for you and winning with... Well, I don't have an illustrious story like most people. As a young teenager, I got involved in musical theater first as a performer. I really joined because it was a really good idea coming from an all-boys school, like almost to get involved in a cast of 63 with only 10 of us being guys. Fabian knows, because Fabian was a part of that company as well, Jamaica Musical Theater Company. And I was so smitten by the amount of girls that were in the show that I said, maybe this is someplace to stay. You know, this is awesome. Everybody's so friendly. And everybody's so huggy, huggy and kissy, kissy. And I mean, at 14, wow! And then, you know, I was lightweight champion of Jamaica at the time in Karate. And I had a lightweight boat at Pegasus, and I skipped it just because I had a rehearsal because there are so many girls that was gonna be there, not to mention choreography, where everybody's like in a leotard, like, oh my God! I mean, this is like coming out of, and then I continue this way. Like I used to come home from school and bathe again just because I had rehearsals, and you had to be impressed because somebody's gonna hug you today. And then one day the director came to me and said, listen, you have some talent, you know? And I was like, really? I was like, really? This was like a social cloak. And when he said that, Peter Haley, a blessed memory, I then started to pay attention to what I was doing on stage, now rather than the socializing. Then it led up to Lion King, which probably was one of my hallmark moments in theater at SCAR, being nominated for the Active Boy Award for the first time in a category with Oliver Samuels and Halloween Scott and all these people. It was like, oh my gosh, maybe I could do this. And then JMTC got slapped with the copyright law. So we couldn't do Broadway shows like that again. And so David was asked to write it. Cause I mean, I just started, I can't end my career here. If I have to write it, I would. And I wrote my first musical, my first script for Jamaica Musical Theatre Company. 27 years later, my father used to be a former minister of tourism and I watch him in service. And I realized one thing that the theater and politics have in common is one of my greatest passions, people. I love people. I love people for people. I love their different personalities, their attitudes, the way they relate, the way they get upset. And so that transition to help and want to serve came from that angle. But I'm still a playwright. I'm still a performer in the arts with just COVID. You can't do what you want to do because you just have to transition. Well, you know, I always say if you are trained as a doctor and you are not practicing medicine, you're still a doctor. So COVID is here for a little while and taking up a lot of our space and closing down our theaters, but we're still practitioners and we're still professionals. So transitioning is also a huge part of your life, Fabia, in the sense that you were also trained in communications and then transitioned into communications and government and then you transitioned into a life of the arts, made quite a name for yourself as a playwright and then continued on to create an ensemble and to work in corporate Jamaica to take the skills and the trainings of theater to corporate Jamaica to help employees and staff build equitable workforces. And also the work you're doing with tribes, St. Colfer around youth development and training young people to go into the creative sector. Tell us about this transition for you as well and where does the life of the playwright begin for you? So interestingly, I wouldn't necessarily call it a transition for me if I was always a performer as a kid, running around telling stories, reading, singing into spoons and reading out loud. So that was all this kind of very active killing. Love literature, love stories, love reading. I remember in high school, one of my literature teachers used to say, you know, when Fabian and I would talk about the book since he's the only one who read it. And sometimes when my classmates were struggling through their first reading, if I liked a book, I was on my second reading and I'd come and say, but miss, I'm paid so-and-so, they said so-and-so-and-so how can so-and-so-and-so sometimes, especially in sixth form, it would be me and my literature teacher, almost like the two of us having a conversation. I say to people now, think formulas I learned in science subjects and things. Maths, if you test me now on maths, when I learned it, 90, ask me next week, gone. Books I read in first form, literature books I remember. And a big part for me with working with you is helping people figure out what their passion is, what they're good at. Went through high school, got tricked into performing. I'm at Calabar, my best friend at the time, there was an interhaul competition and he said, if you were up there singing, what song would you sing? So I said, maybe She's Out of My Life by Michael Jackson. Was leaving the chapel to go and buy a soda and heard the MC announce my name because that wicked boy went and told her, Fabian Thomas from Athens is gonna sing She's Out of My Life. Get up on the stage and like Basil, I don't remember a thing, I closed my eyes, but I sang and when I was done, everybody stood up. And that was my first taste of performing for an audience. The first time. I went on to the place, joined the choir, went to Yui, Yudas, Universal Singers. My father used to say to me, you why don't just move your bed to Philip Sherlock because you'll live down there. I was still in college until two years. Yeah man, I was still in college until two years in a row, literally sometimes Scotty, you start to come and knock on the student corner door to tell me he wants to lock up the theater. So I was always immersed in it, but now as you said, the link now between my training and facilitation. So I'm a dramatic presenter. I use skits, I use role plays, I engage people, which also fed into my work in HIV as a social worker, but also animating things for clients and patients to understand, but also about transformation. How do you use our culture, our work and people's liberty and their reality to shift, to impact people? So for me, it's always been connected and now that I'm doing a lot more writing as a writer, I believe there are no accidents. So I'm an artist, that's been cultured through and through and through and through, I know that's part of why I'm here. I'm grateful. Excellent, thank you so much gentlemen. So jumping into the conversation here, we've heard the quote, we've read it, we've seen it, and what we're really looking at is where is the narrative? Where's the story of the Jamaican people and what are your thoughts on Shah's quote and what would he see and what would he think of the theater in Jamaica today, were he to be here? Not to center him, just to use him as a jumping off point. Do you want me to start? Go ahead. Essentially, I think he made a pointed observation at the time that we should guard ourselves culturally from colonialism as it was then. And I think somebody listened and it had some kind of resonance because shortly after Jamaica got its independence in 1962, in 1963, the government established a festival office and the responsibility and charge of that festival office was to ensure that it made available avenues for all cultural forms and expressions. And as a result today, we have the Jamaica Cultural Development Commission that sponsors, trains, invite, encourages all aspects of cultural offerings from all people. And it's school-based, it's adult-based, it's very encompassing. And as a result, I would say that we have a very strong performance theater creative culture. And we somehow have not been afflicted by any overseas troops coming to exploit us or to make money off us. But in fact, it's a kind of colonialism in reverse because we go to the metropolitan centers and perform. So essentially, Mr. B had a point and somebody listened. You know, when we were briefing about it earlier, one of the responses is that Shah was quite radical in his statement because not only is he talking about, if we're thinking about when the statement was made in 1911, we're looking at just about, what, four years after the great earthquake of 1907 and Kingston is rebuilding. So the Ward Theater hasn't opened yet and much of the infrastructure of Kingston as we know it is not there. Also theater in Jamaica at the time, the mainstream theater was mainly narratives from Western European culture. So we had a lot of Shakespeare, we had a lot of mainly, it was mainly theater for the gentrified. There were, we know Brian Heap came and spoke with us on week one. And we do know that African-Jamaicans were making theater and telling their stories, but not necessarily on a mainstream stage. So as far as the evolution, the evolution from theater from a Western European canon to a Jamaican canon, Fabian, tell us where we are with the Jamaican canon today as far as if we were to answer Shah's statement in that way. Yeah, Shah, again, I agree with Basil. Shah was spot on because it's something about achieving or trying to maintain to a level of purity and autonomy in your expression. Because we have creolization and syncretism and the cultures mixing and fusing, but it's creating a new expression. And one of the things I find in working with young people also not so young people is saying, who are we? What do we have to say? What is our narrative structure? When we are telling a story and we said, we said the house big saw and we're using our whole body to show that the man head was as big as the room and we're using, and you know, how does a Caribbean or Jamaican woman, when she put her hand on our hip, what happens to the body? When a country woman or your grandmother or a market woman laps her skirt in between her legs and put the basket there. Laugh our cocktail, as we say. Laugh our cocktail when we draw a long bench. All those things for me have fed into us telling our stories and using the Jamaican narrative and the Jamaican rhythms and cadences, which are so important. And again, the beautiful thing that, when we talked to Akiba, I went and looked at that Shaw quote. And then as you said, he said that in 1911, in 1912, the world theater was built. You know, 1940, Henry and Rita Fowler started liquor theater movement. 1961, liquor theater is built. And as Abaza mentioned, 1963, JCDC. So, interestingly, a couple of colleagues of mine who are here from Trudad now. I'm going to jump in a little bit because it was in 1965, theater 77. That was, and then from theater 77 becomes Barn 77. And those two theaters are very, very important. And they even look at the Jamaican. But I'll let you finish and then we'll get into that. Right. And so colleagues of mine, Camille Kwamina and Marvin George, two of my people, my people there, if we love them one more time, you know, when I met them, I had this thing that some people when I meet them, my soul recognizes them. And my soul recognized Camille and Marvin. And I interviewed them for Fabian's sake. And Camille said, you know, as much as we in Jamaica, we complain and we have issues and things that are going away and no money in our run. She was saying to us in the region, Jamaica is the holy grail because we have institutions. Things were set up in Jamaica or forefathers at independent seh. We need a JCDC. We need a National Gallery. We need an Institute of Jamaica. And they're saying they look to us as saying these people have institutions that are archiving. And I'm thinking, wow, it's true because when you go back to look and research about, as you said the early storytellers, you know, Biman Bam and Miss Luan Mas Ran and Pantomime and the theater before, you know, as I said, the African Jamaicans who were telling stories not on the mainstream stage, what were they saying? How were they saying it? And then the fusing now with Pantomime borrowing from the British tradition, but Jamaicanizing it and infusing it with Jamaica and then roots theater emerging and saying, okay, so classical theater or professional theater in Jamaica is mimicking European style. We're going to mash up the box. We're going to kick down the fourth wall and we're going to talk to the audience. And we're going to put microphones over there after the big space, walk up to the mic and talk it to them. When I heard the first response, I was like, what is going? And then it was like, wait a minute, they're doing, they're creating something. They're going to mash up the box and they built an audience in a way that commercial faith in Jamaica had not. And then we did the next, we did the next look, look what people are talking to their play and it's not following the rules of theater and people are talking to the audience and then some people who went to those plays now come to the commercial theater with the fourth wall and attack to the actor them. They want you to answer. So we had to do a, a breathe and step back and say, there's a space for roots theater and it may not be my thing, but it is a thing and it is a thing that should not be discounted because in the story of Jamaican theater and creativity, there's space for everybody. When sister-in-law was doing them thing, they were seen as rebel and they were, and they were seen as vulgar because they were talking about pregnant woman and woman having an empire, but sister-in-law changed the world of development theater and applied theater. But in the day, people were like, what is that vulgarity? Just like early reggae, it was some boo-go-boo-go, Natty Ed, get your music. It wasn't respected at first. So I think as practitioners, we have to remember and stay true to what is the expression I'm trying to capture? How am I honoring the story and the cadence? You know, when a country woman, an inner city woman or a youth who police beat up, or a youth who another school, a youth at the stoplight, how do I tell his story with grace and honor and recognize that it deserves to be on the stage, that it deserves to be heard. And that excites me. And I think that range of voices and expressions in Jamaica that we're respecting more, I think, and making more space for and borrowing from each other is a big part of why Jamaican theater is so vibrant and I'm honored to be a part of it. And it's quite a fraternity. And you know, David, when we think about the contemporary Jamaican writers, you are definitely one of the writers at the forefront. And in a lot of ways you sit in a very, in a generational space where you've received training from the classics, the LTMs, but you've also written for the Roots Theater. You wrote for Delcita and Shibata at one point, additionally working in other forms of popular theater and also on television. So when you think about Shah's statement as to, do we now have a Jamaican theater? Well, I must say Akiba, I'm honored to have worked in so many different disciplines of the theater form here in Jamaica. It's been very colorful and that's it. As a patriot, my thing is Shah was right. Shah was right that a people, not just Jamaica, but a people in a whole have to identify themselves as themselves and the best way as a theater practitioner, I know, is to have a national theater movement that supports that. Where I think it's important, now that you mentioned contemporary, it's the changing of the vanguard each time that we, I'm gonna use upon and I'm gonna say that we play our part. I know let him play as we play our part, but play our part in advancing the welfare of our whole human race to take something out of our national motto. Look, Sir Basil, I worked with Sir Basil as well. Sir Basil gave me my first commercial experience on the stage and I gave it for him. And it's how he passed on the vanguard that listen young stuff, there's gonna come a time when you become me and this is the kind of way you need to do. Yes, I was a young rebel at times and there are things I wanted to do, but he was able to bring it in and say, look man, you're doing it this way and I don't care, it's this way. And so I am able to pass that on as well. So who is defending the vanguard? Who is passing the button? Has that responsibility to make sure that culture remains vibrant? Jamaica, I believe, has one of the most colorful, if not the most colorful culture anywhere, anyway. And it's so much in demand by the rest of the world. So many people out there want to include us, want to be like us, want to do us. I know Fabian, Basil and myself, we travel yearly with our products overseas because the demand for the diaspora that's actually in the foreign countries, it's so high. So who we are passing on to has that responsibility to make sure there is still something passing on. As that's it, you know, it comes right back down to culture and showers, right? Let us not steal somebody else's culture, let's not steal somebody else's way. I respect Shakespeare and everyone else that have made me the writer I am today, but I love the fact that within our country, we have our own voice. We have our own space and we are our own people. That's easy. There is nowhere else in this world you're gonna find somebody like a Jamaican as resilient, as colorful and as daring and blaring as we are. We don't stop, the volume is low. You know? Jumping quickly and there's climates. So deal with, me and Chava, we're not Chava every year yet, but we're claiming that for my people. People need to be me. We're not Chava every year yet, we're from 2021. You say that to include it, you know? You say that to include it. I'm glad I said bless the Lord, bless the Lord. But you know, the thing is, we'll talk a little bit about COVID later on, but I've been able to enjoy quite a bit of tribes work through internet. And so this time, which is a time of shutdowns, I keep saying that 2020 is an opening, not a closing. And if we're aware and if we're present- Amen, amen. of the time, the opening of our time. So speaking of openings, just, you mentioned Cistern Theatre. We are going to be speaking with Lana Finnecan, who is one of the founders of Cistern. You know, when I was in- Mama Lana. We had to study Cistern Theatre Company where we talked about community theater and theater for the people. We had to actually study Cistern. So it's going to be a huge honor to speak with Lana next week. So thank you for bringing her up. So let me ask you this. A question of aesthetics. What is the aesthetic of the theater that you create? When I come to see- Where do you- You know, when I come to see works created by a David Tullock, a Fabian Thomas, a Basil Dawkins, where do you sit in the canon of Jamaican work stack? Well, for me, it depends on what type of mind show you're coming to see. The ratings differ from very, very, very G for all general audiences. And we can go straight up to over 21 and over. So it depends on that. You see, for me, I try to cater to everybody. So I have a bit some pieces of my mind that travel into various genres. So I like to be catering to people who like my gospel work, people who love my kids plays, people who love my very, very adult plays, you know what I mean? So it depends on what you want, what you like. There's something like that for everyone. I mean- So your work, you have, you do work in the gospel genre. And then you get it for young audiences. And then you have more contemporary adult. And then there's a very, very adult. There's a level of- You're very, very, very adult. Okay, very clear. All right, Basil, what's the kind of, what is the aesthetic of the work that you create? Where, what part of Jamaican society are you writing from? I think, I think essentially my work reflects the, it has a kind of middle classness about it. It's working middle class. It's basically drama that points to and looks at the carrying on of ordinary people and those who end up doing extra ordinary thing. I try why not to be preachy to at least reflect some kind of the moral high ground of the society, whatever that is at any given time. I also will sneak in provocative stuff that will force them, my audience to think that I want to look at things like social abuse. I look at the absentee father. I look on the effect of the migration where the productive part of the population has to go away and then grandma or helper has to bring up the children and all of the social ills that arise from those kinds of things. I also try to on another level encourage people to be forgiving because I find that there is not enough forgiveness in our society. And as a result, we are not achieving the level of gentleness and kindness that the society naturally has but because we are unforgiving and we keep up things. Things that shouldn't blow up into something that it's a minor thing but it blows up because we are unforgiving. So essentially, I would say that my genre is drama but richly lays throat with comedy because in my head, the drama is the medicine and the comedy is the sugar that keeps it though. You know, we had Valier Johnson on two weeks ago and he talked about one of your pieces, Toy Boy, right? That was yours. And he talked about playing a homeless man in that play and when you talk about the balance or what I call the taffy pole between comedy and drama, here we see, if you wanna tell us a little bit more about Toy Boy but the role that he played being a homeless man, people would see him, dirty homeless man making fun of him and then he's taken home by a woman who bades him and takes care of him and helps him to kind of get back, get himself back up in the society. Can you just give us a little taste of that narrative? And what essentially happened at work? Toy Boy was inspired by the fact. It was during the time when AIDS and HIV was a terrifying thing. You know, people felt if you got it, there was no outers for you. And this was a lady, an upper center middle-class, middle-class lady whose husband was believed to have died as a result of AIDS. And although she was attractive, she was rich, she was everything, no man would touch her because her husband died from AIDS. And in her desperation, she just decided to live by herself. But then she went to maybe get gasoline in her vehicle, saw this homeless man, he came and he helped her to put gas in the car because that's something she never did before. And she just looked at him and smelling the crepitant as he was. She decided, I have nothing to lose. I'm going to take him and fix him up. So she took him home. She got him dentists work. She trained, it's a pig million, but with clothes rather than language, with clothes and appearance and designer, this and that. Still the head's face wasn't good, but he was so attractive to all the people in her circle that many people, many of her contemporaries, many of her girlfriends actively tried to take him away from her and none of them knowing his history, none of them knowing where he came from, but goes to show that her effort to build him back based only on superficialities made him attractive to the society that considers itself so open and above everybody else. And there's so much commentary there. So much social commentary. Extremely, extremely. Amazing. I would love to have seen the performance of that. And it's just too random. It's just two actors. Hopefully I could see that in the future because they could get a revival. Yeah. Sabian, when we talk about social commentary, you do work looking at HIV prevention and you work specifically with young people. Tell us about the aesthetics of your theater. What will we see when we come to your place? Well, for me, I try to, for me it's about transformation. It's a transformative for me and healing space that's very important. So it's looking at not just outward issues but inward issues. And it's the same way I try to go for functions as a space. Like I'm as interested in how we live in offstage as how we're performing on stage. I think the two things are strongly connected. So when you come, you're going to see us honoring work and words. So I love words, words, words through the sounds of words, how words look on a page, how they sound when you lift them off the page and how they evolve and morph into a whole other thing when you stage them. So poetry and prose work, and even in writing, there's sections sometimes an actor has a monologue that takes on different cadence. I've always been fascinated by that. So when people come, you're going to hear us honoring words and stories, but also things are held up to say, where do you think about this? And what do you have to heal? This character is healing this. What are you healing? What are you carrying? It's also very important for me to honor work and honor those who show as I stand on. So the directors who directed me early on who made me want to direct, Earl Warner, Eugene Williams, Eastern Lee, Bobby Gises. I knew I wanted to do this. This thing they were doing with me as an actor. I wanted to do that, but also this respect for writing and deconstructing the work and then putting it back together. And then I had amazing literature teachers that informed my work. So it's looking at who are we at our core? Well, who are we in our soul, but also ancestrally? Honoring ancestors is very, very important to me. And as a result, you know, we do show away, you know, where the ancestor spirit show up. We have to bless his face and get effin and wipe up people's head. And, you know, because when you're called by ancestor, they say, oh, you're calling me? See me here? And he said, well, why is this happening? Because you're calling me name. Oh, you're telling my story and even not having to work with young actors, but also not so young because here's what colonization and miseducation has done. We're afraid of ourselves. We're afraid, all be eyes, dot, y, and that. We're afraid of ourselves. We're afraid of ourselves. We're afraid of our stories. And Nancy is a thief in the wiki. No, and Nancy outsmarted master. And Nancy outsmarted animals bigger than him. He was a survivor. But it's just music. And Nancy is a criminal. Why are they teaching children? Really? And Nancy is us. And Nancy was this liquor spider man who outsmarted animals 10 times his size. And Nancy was a survivor. And Nancy was a youth who should have been dead or squashed, but who survived? So those stories represent us. And Nancy is also a part of African cosmology. He's the trickster. Yes. Our ancestors brought him on the slave ship with them. The stories came from Africa with them to us. But the same thing of anything Black nor Golden. Obvious wiki, speaking in tongues is bad, but if you're speaking in tongues in an anglicized church, it's okay. And I find that theater, we have to reclaim that. Tell the stories, sing the songs, rehearse the songs. That's why we have to bless up Olive Luen who went on research. Queen Ink who went into a mild chance and came out speaking. Kikongo have been never learned it before. Those things have always fascinated me. MBTC, Lakatka, they have all these stories and people mild travel. Kumina, when they do Kumina, lantern it, go in the hills, carry the answer in a bush. So to some people, we draw them daughter, our son, out of Lakatka. Wish you a kind of poor land far. Do, do, do, do, do. You go to Anaya Benghia. So you, for me, the sleeping and immersing ourselves in the culture and then now saying, how do we use this and access this in our stories, in our poetry? How do we honor the work of Denny Scott, Mervyn Morris, Lorna Goodison? How do we take our poets and writers and elevate them to the level where we are focusing on them? David said it earlier, every other major show, series that's done outside Jamaica, Jamaica show up at some point, whether musically, then referring to the food, talking about being the, we're a daughter on the map, but yet. That's your biggest. It's in our DNA, there's greatness in us and that for me, honoring that and showing that on stage in its fullness, musically in terms of movement, poetry and drama is part of, is my brand and it's definitely tribes and co-for brand. So your work is really looking at, honoring those who came before, the people that you named are some of the pillars of Jamaican theater, Jamaican culture. You also named Lentenette Steins and Lentenette Steins is, I would say she's more than a light bearer. She is so critical and a major point of connection to African dance to work, dance all around the world and then connecting to our contemporary dance form of dance hall. I call Lentenette name with Alvin Ailey, Catherine Dunham. Catherine Dunham. That's exactly where Lentenette resides. When you look at the work she's done, but also some things that come out of Lentenette head because I used to be in like, I can have a worker that said, Lentenette, where are you? And she tell it, she dream it. She go sleep and wake up. I've seen Lentenette. And you think I've never seen this movement before anywhere on anybody. And you know, professional for that level of creating a vocabulary for a nation, for an expression. And I think now contemporary as David was saying, what are we doing with that? How are we borrowing from that? But also what new things are we creating in this time? Let me jump in here. I wanna jump in here because you're really touching and you're really touching, you're actually laying out. You both lay out in some ways the fabric of Jamaican society, right? You, the middle class, the Anglo aspect, the different countries and cultures that are in Jamaica, but also everybody connects no matter how much they say or don't say, everyone connects in Jamaica to the Afro-Jamaican narrative. Everyone connects to Kumauna. Whether or not you hide and say you've been to Anaya Bingy, well, not everyone can go to Anaya Bingy. Anaya Bingy, by the way, is a drumming session among Rastafari people. Or whether you've been to a Poco Church, been to a mild session, somehow, some way that Africanism is deeply rooted in Jamaican society. And you see it on the stage and you see it in the streets. I'm gonna go to another playwright, Mary Baraka, who's the Dutchman we're very familiar with, right? Leroy Jones. And starting this question with David, and Mary Baraka once said that the job of the playwright was to see what's going on in the streets and to put it on the stage so that the people can see what's going on in the street. So what's going on in the streets of Jamaica that you are putting on the stage and in all the three different genres that you're writing for? Theater for young audiences, for gospel theater and theater for more mature audiences. What are we putting on the streets that is on the stage? Well, this is it, right? I focus primarily on relationships, right? As I said, it could be familial, could be marital, could be sposo, depending on whatever it is, we're looking at the relationship around my story. So right now, it's a pivotal time in the world. And I find that where we left off in theater just before COVID came, we were looking at things like, can a man lose their woman to a woman? That's because these are topics that people don't touch, but they're very much there. I tend to be that writer that touches the things that people are afraid of. So on the streets, you want to look at a case where we did not my child, which I took literally from something in the Gleaner that I read of a relationship between a 14-year-old girl and a 45-year-old man. This was a true story. She asked for a phone and couldn't get it. She then threatened to tell his wife, and so he chopped her into 43 different pieces. These are stories. And then guess what? We have grew some stories like that generally, but what drew me to it was the fact that the Gleaner reported that the mother knew that this relationship was going on and encouraged it, because that's what paid their rent and their bills and all of that. And I'm saying, okay, here we go, David. As a writer, you have to touch this in something a little bit more mature. I looked at the sugar daddy effect. Literally that was the name of the play. The sugar daddy effect. Yeah, the sugar daddy effect. Well, here is what happened. You are looking at a man who fell flat on his face. His wife literally abuses him mentally, verbally, and he's deprived of affection, and then he gets a helper to help out and they fall in love. And he then gives that young girl all his attention and time and turns her life around. And in return, she turned his life around and now the wife wants back. So these are issues. Like I've heard audience members saying what was just like being a fly on a wall. This is real. Real is important because at the end of the day, we all love to do with theater, but if it's not gonna be viable, then it absolutely makes no sense to just do it. So you have to find these stories that resonate with people that intermission, they're talking about it and they're arguing and this one is on that side. That one is on that side. And you're going back and forth and there's a twist coming into my play. There are a couple of twists coming at you right away. So you don't know where, what, how, and it's just to look around you because our music have brought us to this level where things are so graphic now. There's nothing left to the imagination again. So as a writer, I find myself having to match that. And if you don't, then what's the point in going? Look at what's being popular in entertainment. No, people go to parties, they go to dances. Why? The food is good, the drink is good, the socialization is good, but the entertainment is music. So you have to look at the music that they're listening to. It's extremely graphic. So if you're gonna come to my play, I have to give you something that is a little better or on par with the party that you're about to go to because entertainment has leveled. The movie prices are the same as theater tickets as the same as party prices. So we're all in this thing trying to make sure that you keep the same culture, same dance, culture, you need that. Same middle class culture if you need that. The mixture of both middle class meeting, the working class, that's also very popular and look at the dynamics. So you are writing from what, you make a good point about entertainment and the arts. The arts sometimes always feels that they have to be in dialogue, sometimes even in competition with entertainment. So there's a sense of, the people are going to the dance hall, the people are going to the nightclubs, how do we get the people to come to the theater? You know? So we then have to write works that would get people who are interested in that culture to be interested in theater. Not to cut your keyboard. I don't know if Sir Doc in Sasha got at it, but I know Fabian did. And you literally, you can't sell benefit performances for a play like that because it did have nudity in it, right? But it sold itself from a Tuesday to Sunday with double shows on Saturday and three shows on a Sunday, right? I know my parents were very much like they wanted to disown me at the time, but you know, most of their friends did not see any of my other classics, but they came to that like three, four or five times. Some people came 10 times. So it tells you when you find a story that resonates inside somebody's home, that's so strong that that stings you, that you spared nothing to tell the truth, you get the crowd, they come out. You know, I want to talk a little bit, we'll kind of go into the structure because you mentioned benefit performance. As I'm listening in the past, over the past five weeks and in my own research into Jamaican theater, I'm getting a sense of the business structure. What allows Jamaican artists to continue their work is heavily dependent on, there's not a lot of government funding, and it's heavily dependent on either corporate or these benefit. When Sarah Basley is the king of that. Yeah, right, so that sometimes can limit your pen. But before we go into that, let's talk a little bit about language. And when I talk about language, I'm not just speaking about language as whether or not English or Jamaican or some people may call it Jamaican Creole or, you know, that's one part of language. But when I talk about language, I'm talking about what is the verbal attraction, cadence, shared entrance into the collective consciousness, what we all know, what we all understand, because love him or leave him, Jamaican people know who a Nancy is, whether we accept or reject a Nancy. So we talk about language. I think a Nancy is a part of our language. Carlo Bryant says that we are a Nancy nation in the chat. So Basil, talk to us about the language of the Jamaican canon. Yes. Language for me is always a challenging thing. And the first thing you need to ask yourself is who am I communicating to? Who am I speaking to and what language must I use so that they can understand? Because I do have that obligation. But at the same time, you want to be authentic to the voices of your characters and your characters if they are Jamaican, they have to talk authentic Jamaican, but in a manner so that everybody else who has some modicum of English will understand. So I'm always challenged because my place go to different countries. Some of them English is not even their first choice. But at the same time, what I aim to do is to make sure that the sociocultural context of the situation is so understood that even if I use Raban, Jamaican, Patoa, the context in which it is set will communicate the feelings. And therefore, my aim is to be as communicative to the Australian, the South African, the wherever you come from, that you must understand the Jamaican-ness of it. And I also understand the limitations too because you will say, when you look at the Jamaican dance or culture and the ways widely accepted in Europe, in Japan, in China, in places where they don't even speak the language, but we have to be mindful of the fact that we don't have drum and bass. We are out there or actors are out there on stage with their naked truth and all they have is their language and movement. And we are not necessarily assisted with the pulsating rhythm of the dancer. So as a result, I think we have to always write with a sensitivity to being true to the essence of who we are, but understanding that we want the wider world to hear and understand and feel us. You know, it's interesting because a couple of weeks ago, we had the Jamaican producers on and they too had this conversation of language comes up when we talk about the wider world, the global Jamaican theater on a global platform. I think plays are traveling all over the world in every single language. And writers are picking up stories from different corners of the globe and bringing it into their culture. So when we think about, I push back a little bit when I hear the need for the language to be clearly understood in its English form. And I'm more wondering what is the opportunity? Sabian and David or Basil, but what is the opportunity for audiences who are interested in culture or even those of us who are in the diaspora and we've been removed from the language for quite a while. And we may even to be lost in some of the dialect. What is the opportunity for somebody to lean in and to learn as far as language and Jamaican? And it could be in the ways of words, it could be movement, it could be cadence, what are the opportunities for people to look into how language is used in the Jamaican? And even talking about African cosmology as you're using in Sabian, what are those opportunities for people looking in? Because I think it's one, yes, you do need to be adaptable, but technology is making things adaptable. Yes. Being the electoral opportunity for people who are peering into the Jamaican state. I'm glad you asked that, Akiba, because for me, I am like, look. And I say too, in my lectures in talking, working in cultural studies, we're also coaching people. I say to them, why do people twang? Okay, so what is twang? Because they break down twang, because now you speak. We put up, you know, my book is some people living in a country for years and years and they get the accent. Jamaicans get the accent on the way to the airport before we reach. Well, I say, well, I'm gonna find, so you get this, or you get this heavy note with the windrush generation, who the thick English accent. So some twang in for me is, you think something's wrong with the way you speak. So you're fixing it. Yeah. So somebody else can understand. And I said to people, you hear African people are twang? You hear Spanish people are twang? They talk, they're talk. And if you're catchy, you're catchy, you're lucky. And I'm saying, Jamaica, we should do the same. You can use subtitles. You can have translation, but people should hear the rhythm, the cadence, the pronunciation. When somebody say, Macadjup me. They say, what a way to get sweet like our money. People must hear that rhythm. And sometimes even experiments. So I love to do things where we do the English, do the Patua, then do the English. And we try to think over, we have the opportunity because we're doing all kinds of work. We're doing work that's written in very Anglo English. We're doing things that are more colloquial. We're doing things in heavy Patua. We're doing things in Danza style. But we're also using music kind of with them and how we move. And I'm like, people should be able to experience it. And kind of go, oh, this was difficult. Or wow, I always say to people to pick up an accent. It's not about the speaker changing how they speak. It's about you adjusting how you listen. Because if you're used to a certain sound, that's the sound your air is used to. But when a different sound enters the soundscape, you have to shift or pay more attention. And then you get into the rhythm and the movement. And you know, how do we move as Jamaicans? And that sounds, I think, is beautiful. One of the things, I'm a Patua champion. And I struggle with the fact that I believe, I might have to draw for my earphones because the rain started falling where I am. Okay, okay. I already have my earphones now. That's sweet Jamaican rain, nothing like a December rain in Jamaica. Jamaica, sadly, is still one of the, probably the only countries in the world that is still ashamed of its indigenous language. Okay, now talk the team, talk the team. It's nation language. We are still shaming people because they talk bad. She didn't go school. She have sense. Why she talk like that? We're still putting songbites on TV to make fun of people who are speaking funny. We still have a nation that we are not honoring our language. The Jamaican language and its cadences and duties of people, sometimes shame for talking. You know, the people tell you, people say, I'm not against Catalina, but it has its place. You know, when you think about what the language is, however, the fact that Jamaica is a convergence of so many different African peoples. Thank you. And how they had to form a way for them and all the same people. Thank you, Mrs. Staff. We had to form a language so we could communicate one to get ourselves off of the plantations. Thank you. Because there was no way we could revolt if we couldn't talk to each other. We then had a language that we were not allowed to read just like in the new world. We were not allowed to read and write. So you could lose your life. Frederick Douglass talks about that. The fact that we even have formed this language, it's one that should be investigated and celebrated. I think I'm just going to bring David into the conversation here because you have your own take on the Jamaican language and its evolution as different cultures have come. So I would say you have your own take on the Jamaican language in the 20th and 21st century. Share that and how does that language show up in your place? So firstly, I want to say that I don't quite agree with Fabian. I was wondering where this agreement was going to come from. But here it goes, my first one. So for me, it's different. When you step into a room and the person who you want to converse with in a room starts to speak Spanish. Now, if you didn't do Spanish, you don't have a clue what is being said. Now, even to Jamaicans, the raw creole, they don't understand it. They don't understand the language either. So it depends on who you are talking to. If I am in a room, no, no, no. We're going to get there, right? We're going to get there. It depends on who you're talking to. I love the colorful language that we have. And I encourage it. It's in every single play that I have. Here's the thing. When I write, because I'm coming from my first degree, I was in literature as in English, when I write, I write in English. When we're directing it, I say, be Jamaican. You know what it's saying, the cold jumped over the moon. That's what it says in English. But if you answer the cold, jump over the moon. And I kill you for that. Keep your accent, keep your everything be Jamaican about it. When we travel, the promoter always comes to us and say, hey, remember, you know, then don't understand where you are right. No, so careful how much of it you go into. But I find that once we touch it, I mean, as an actor myself, being in the play overseas, and you're trying to, oh, the cold jumped over the moon, you know, and trying to, the minute you said, Jano, the cold jumped over the moon, you know, the place. And so. Because that's what they're paying their money for. They're paying their money to hear a jump over the moon. Thank you. But the promoter is out of the believe. This is the person who carried up it up. They're out of the believe. So you know what they're talking about. Yeah, yeah. But Akiba, yes, sir, the truth is, it is not required of you by the promoters overseas. And I've had to deal. I know exactly what David is the, I've been dealing with it 30 years before, David. And the truth is, they are concerned that if you are going to speak, they part-word it, Jamaican, speak it slower so that the people have time to translate it. And they will get it. But you can be rattling it off and going on to another thing and another thing because they have to have time to interpret and they will get it. So, but we, as Jamaican producers, we are very sensitive about the time of the run of our play. And if it's a two hour play, we want it to finish in two hours. We don't want it to be two hours, 10 minutes. But you have to make that allowance if you are going to stay authentic to the language is to be aware that most of the people in that 1800, they don't know it. Many of them, although they're Jamaican and they claim Jamaican and they even try to talk like Jamaican but they're hearing it coming at them at rapid fire. They're not, and they get frustrated and they complain about it. I know that, but it does not require you to necessarily change anything that is authentic but you have to, you can keep the rhythm but just slow it down a little. So here's the signal, Akiva. Hold on, hold on David, let me, let me. So this is where I differ from both David and Basil because even when we are performing for Jamaican audience on stage you have to slow down your speech. So people can hear it anyway. So you're not gonna, because gabbling, clarity. So the same attention to the classical things of performing and performing and not just casual talk is the same thing for any audience. But when you now slow it down and so here's what we have happening in Jamaica. People come to Jamaica, they show things in Jamaica with Jamaican accent, with Jamaican accent. I'm telling you that the sound to Jamaican, I say run them, run them. Nobody's telling African people and it's nothing that they're talking fake so I'm talking Jamaican actors. They speak standard Jamaican English who are not speaking in a St Elizabeth accent have put people who come from far in telling them, you know that was great. But you know, could you sound more Anglo because the audience we're going for is are they doing that for their product? Are they telling Indian people your sound to Indian? Are they telling the African soap operas that we are gobbling up, that we have subtitles and what generations is one of the biggest things in Jamaica? There's an Indian soap opera with an Indian girl like the Jamaican teens love it because it is authentic. But we in Jamaica, I'm not saying in Basel and David, there's a tendency to say, make we slow it down. Let us not have it so heavily, but it is Jamaican. We are Jamaican. I would like to say something here, Akiba. Yeah. The question is not that it is not already in a performance rhythm here in Jamaica. What is required overseas is to even slow it down a little more. And who is perfect and good at that with all the clarity and everything is Oliver Samuels. Nobody overseas, though here in Mardo, understand what he says. And it's not that he isn't aware that he's going authentic, but he does it at a pace and a rhythm that it allows for everybody to understand it. Because Akiba, we have different rehearsals on where touring, you know. Once the Clarone is in Jamaica, it's closed. The minute the tour starts, we have two weeks of rehearsal for that separately because it's adapted to the foreign stage. Right, right. Because you have to make a deal. Okay, where I might say, hold on, Fabia. Where I might say something that the nowadays, like you said on the streets, the nowadays people know immediately what that man, you might get it. When I go overseas, I go out and make something out of that what that man, because so that they get it. Because you remember they've been away from the country for a while. So you have to kind of have a class while you are doing your performance. So I'm going to reintroduce what that man to you and you're going get it because I'm going to do it about five times in the show, right? So when I go, what that man? You don't have to wait, I give them a chance to look and they're going to turn to them and I say, what that man? That's cute. You know, whatever it is. But you're making a good point here because we listening to the conversation from day one, you know, I'm glad you bring up Oliver. It's not unusual for a Jamaican or another person from the Caribbean or a non-Jamaican to go and see or non-Caribbean person to see Oliver because the way that Oliver handles language, rhythm, syncopation, pacing, he brings you into the language in a way in his performance. We also heard that from Shabada. Shabada talks about how he used language and that moment of teaching, that moment of presentation. Right. Well, he's very good at it too. Yeah, Sadie, and you talk about another element of the Jamaican stage being the removal or the smashing of the fourth wall. That's a component of language because when audience can communicate with what's on the stage, there's that ability to access. And we know that some theaters, some people go to the theater and they like sit quietly and listen to the play. But... From the theater. Theater. Like laugh and talk back. So I want to go into... We have Althea Charlene. She says, we that have left Jamaica for years, sometimes she's agreeing with what you're saying here, David, that it's sometimes difficult to understand. However, we that have left Jamaica for years, we go to the theater to brush up on our Jamaica. Hey! To the theater to find out what I'm... You know, I need to find out to find out what's the language, all the people that might talk, all the things that go free. I just learned that word the other day. What's the free? We are free. We are free. So Akiva, not to cut you, but that's it. So as writers, I know Sarah Basil does it too, but when we're going overseas, we have to bear that that tour is coming up at the end of our local run. So we try to write a script that educates the diaspora overseas that here's what you've missed over the year that you have not seen us. Because I go up maybe four or five times for the year. And I have to remember that fly down is different from Atlanta, is different from London. And I did that in London last year. So I can't go back to London again with it this year. I have to come something else. Because you have to teach them. You don't know what's the latest in the dance and culture. You don't know what's the latest in the middle class. So you try to do a little package so you get a little bit of everything. And so Akiva, I think this is an important difference in approach and style. So I don't do that. I don't fix a version for Atlanta and Germany and Skolk. So you try to come over when I do a play, I rehearse it in the context that they're Jamaicans who don't understand pattern. Right. But the Jamaicans who come to the play who don't understand some words in standard English. So I am already rehearsing for a diverse audience in terms of language. And so it's pitch that way and rehearse that way so that wherever we go with a play, wherever we go to Atlanta with this poem, it has to be the same way. And wherever we go to do a dub poem, it has to be the same way. Now what we might add is a conversation or discussion after the performance. But I don't get into the, oh, I'm changing it for the tour. So for me, the work that I do, there's not a tour version and a Jamaican version. This is the work. Work. And look at, hold on, we might have some contempt for things that people might not get. So when we did The Law and the Good is an Edition of Words Sold in Barbados, we didn't change it. We rehearsed it, but we didn't change the language that the cadence is for that audience. And this is how it sounds. So it's just a different in approach. And maybe because of the kind of work that tribes have done, it gives us more of that leeway. But I'm not changing things because we're going to Atlanta and because we're going to London. This is the piece. This is what I rehearsed and this is the story. Here's what we're presenting. Fabian, your work is reminding me of the ancient Greek theater where it was more about, because there are people who, in that time, the language wasn't written. Because if you think about that time, you think about what is a language. Language is verbal and it's written, right? And so if you think about as languages were being formed, even in the allegorical theaters of the medieval allegorical theaters of Europe. These languages, the common man, the average man that was at a Shakespeare play was not reading and writing anything. True. So how was language being formed? How is language being formed? And how is it landing on people? And that's where you see these performative elements being very vivid. And that's one of the reasons why we would even say that some of the pop culture plays and the roots theater is so successful because they're heavy on performance, they're heavy on farce and they're not as cerebral even though they have a lot of social commentary. We're moving on to the almost the end of our time together. And so what I want to do is to ask where does the Jamaican theater, where does the work that you do as playwright, where does language, where does everything that we have this, we're talking about at this time, if we think of 2020 and COVID, a portal, a gateway, what are we walking through this gateway with? And how does your work come out on the other end? What are you taking with you from this COVID time, this time where the world is saying, we must change, we want to change, we want to do better? Let me jump in quickly. So for Trance and COVID was a transformative period for us because I realized that COVID was going to be here for a while. So I actually auditioned five new members for tribes and Kofa virtually. That was the first time we had our meetings virtually. We started to go through repertoire with the new members online. And then we said, are we gonna do a season? So we did our first virtual season in August, two different nights, sold tickets on Eventbrite and then we got funding from Kingston Creative to be part of there last Sunday. And then we just recently got catapult funding through Kingston Creative, American Friends of Jamaica. And we did another showcase so now we're into, we have recorded work. We now have audio clips that we're now amassing because this is gonna be for the long haul. So it really is about, that's where the box, what is this box of which you speak? Because all these things we had access to before COVID but in our mind was your rent a theater, going to a theater and perform for a Jamaican audience and then maybe your tour. We can now say our season from the beginning we are pitching for people in Germany to be able to see it because even if we're in a theater we're live streaming. So it's opened up this other world of, make it open up the team, like I said, I started my living room and watched Alien, watched National Theater of London. So for me that really said, it has completely changed the way we see ourselves in tribes and Kofo, but also the world. And also for myself as a writer, it's like, there is no box, there's no separation, there's nothing we don't have access to. And it's now about great thinking along that and creating in that line that I am creating for an international audience. And I may, you know, and you have easier access to Jamaica but the world is at our feet. So for me as an artist, but also for tribes and Kofo, that's the gift of COVID for us. What about for you, David? What is COVID, what are you taking? What are you leaving behind? What is the case? It made me a keeper think about a lot of things, mainly longevity and where we are in the public space. I'm also an adjudicator for JCDC as well. And every year when I go and I look and I see, we're doing the same world points from when I was in primary school. And as a writer, I'm saying, so what's my contribution to that right now? And it's simply the fact that I don't think we're published enough. So I'm taking the other route now because my belief is it may be three, maybe four years before live theater becomes prominent again. And so let's not waste the time. I am on the CSEC syllabus as a playwright. I'm CSEC because you're giving terms that those who live in Jamaica. Oh, sorry. So they would have known it at CSEC back in the day, right? It's no, the CSEC examination. It's an entrance exam. Or senior Cambridge. They would have known it. Elementary or primary? Grade 11, grade 11, grade 11. Grade 11 to get to college? High school, yeah, high school. Right, so I'm on that syllabus and I'm also studied in the university. I have three players in the university right now, but the students are reading from a PDF file. You know what I mean? It's time now to look at things like Sir Basli who has done his great book of his plays. I think a lot of us as writers no need to pay back our contribution. Because we've been commercially involved. We no need to go on the back end and supply what we have not been supplying over the years so that at least literature of our work is being preserved, whether or not we're performing them or not. And it's also given us a chance to film some of them. As I spoke to some very prominent people overseas who I don't want to name right now, but they said to me, look, you're sitting down now doing nothing, turn your plays into films. Not necessarily movies. Just do a film diversion of your play. Right, so at least longevity is there, whether or not, because if you died tomorrow, God forbid, where do you go for a David Tolo? How do we find you? You're looking at publishing and one of the benefits of publishing, especially when you're able to get your plays into the classroom curriculum, you are then educating the generations to come up because they're studying these plays. They're learning language and comprehension by studying Jamaican plays by Jamaican playwrights. Not just studying Shakespeare, not just studying August Wilson and Lorraine Hansberry, but they're able to learn how to read, write, speak, be in the world by studying your work. Basil, what about- Hold on one second, that's before you move on. Let's hold, because at time, I do want to move to Basil. And now- Okay, sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Essentially, I have used this period as a period of introspection, a period of self-study. I am, in fact, looking at what options do I take? How can I be more productive once this COVID-19 is over? How could I be of service to a generation that follows? There's always the issue of the inability to get a theater space. Now, the digital technology is allowing us to do some things, but I am thinking that the medium has to be addressed in terms of, I don't necessarily want to look at just picking something off a live stage and just live streaming. I want to know what are the rudiments? What are the aesthetics that are required now for streaming? Because we're going into a new world and I want to go in at a level where we don't come off amateurization and excellence can still be maintained. So that's where I am now. So essentially I'm doing nothing that is outwardly productive. Everything for me now is internal in this time. I'm using this space to educate myself. Amazing. Well, you know, we've been getting the chat is definitely lighting up here and the conversation is kind of setting off. You set your audience off with this conversation on language. We have Krista Leed, who's been joining us, I think from week one. She points out that the novel Yardee was made into a movie. Actually, it's one of my favorite novels. And when we see Idris Elba, he did not do subtitles for the Jamaican parts of the language and he played it as it was. And so that's one thing that's coming up. Basil, you have quite a fan in the audience who's Toy Boy, she exclaims, is one of her favorite plays of all time. And that is Patricia Reed. Patricia Reed Way, say Toy Boy is one of her favorite plays of all time. You did. I'm glad that we went into this conversation about language because I think as we wrap up, as we close out, I do think that language is going to be something that on the other side of COVID, we as creatives around the world, we are going to investigate language very deeply. Whether the Tower of Babel is falling down or we're building new language structures because we talk about language, we also talk about the virtual space, right? And we talk about being able to make it work inside of the virtual space. So how does language even show up in that space? I keep on. It's not a one-to-one translation, so to speak, to make a virtual event work really well. So this has been an incredible conversation. It's only part one. Next week, we are entering into part two. We will continue, please feel free to continue the conversation in the chat. Share your perspectives on language, on the story of the Jamaican people. What place have you seen? But next week, we go into part two of the Jamaican Playwrights where we will speak with the great Delia Harris. We will be speaking with Lana Finneken, one of the co-founders of Cistern, I call it Cistern Theater Movement. And we're also gonna be speaking with Suzanne Beato. So do join us next week at 4 p.m. Eastern time here on our YouTube channel and also on HowlRound.com. And Jamaican people have a saying, we say, walk good. And we actors, we say, see you on the boards. So walk good on the boards, no matter what the language you speak. Blessings, blessings. Blessings. Thanks.