 Alright, you guys ready to go? Look like we've got a packed house here. I'd like to think that's a good thing and not that I have a room full of criminals. My name's Steve Dunker. I'm a college professor out of Oklahoma. Got a few okies in here. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about myself. Number one, I'm a Christian. Number two, I am a lawyer. For Missouri, I have a Missouri license. So if you have a question later on, it has to be a hypothetical or it has to happen in Missouri or they'll nab me for a practice in law without a license in Nevada. Number three, I've got a family. I've got a wife and kids and some of you are going, what are you even telling us all this for? Well, as you probably already heard, there's some TV press here and they're looking for a story about how evil you guys are. Hopefully, if they're in the room right now, they've got the hidden camera, supposedly, and they're undercover and they're going to try to figure out how evil you guys are. I figured my talk was a great talk for the news. I figured, oh, this is a guy. He's going to teach you guys how to be evil. That's not what my talk is about. I'm an ex-police officer. I'm very pro-police. I teach future police officers. I know a few of you are already, well, that's a small percentage of you. This is my fourth or fifth DEF CON. It's not in my experience full of rampant criminals running wild. Well, maybe that's my first one. There's a little bit of trouble. As I look at, I used to be, just four or five years ago, I used to be the only one with a white shirt. I did get a lot of weird looks. I don't know if anyone's experienced that, but it used to be you had to have a black shirt. That was part of the culture. Now, I was going to look for the guy in the white shirt, but there's many, many of us now. Actually, if I wore a hat, it'd be a white hat. Now, once again, the reason I'm saying all this is because of the press. I'm not here to teach you guys how to be criminals. I teach my future police officers this. When we're talking about police criminal procedure, we're talking about honoring the Constitution of the United States, because that's what it's about. That's what this whole country is built on, is the Constitution of the United States. I'm on the Oklahoma Veterans I can't remember what it is now, under pressure. Anyway, I talked to a lot of veterans. They were over there fighting for the flag, and I never correct them because they were over there fighting for the flag, but I also, in my mind, the Constitution, because the Constitution is what built this country, that's what runs this country, and that's what I'm here to talk about today. Police criminal procedure has everything to do about the Constitution. If you're the press and you're trying to catch someone, you're in the wrong talk, you might as well get up and leave. We'll wait. That's not what we're here to do. What we're here to do is make sure you know what your constitutional rights are about by the police. I'll tell you, if you are a criminal, the best way not to have contact with the police is to stop doing anything evil. But for the rest of us, I'll tell you the truth. I got stopped two weeks ago for a headlight out, and the guy searched my car, and I was like, hey dude, it's just a headlight. But he was looking for, I don't know, I know what he's looking for, he's looking for a rest, but he didn't get it for me. Let's get right into it. When can the police make a stop? Well, anytime you're out, whether you're on foot or in a car, the police have to have either reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Now, those are legal terms that I'm going to try to, I mean, whole cases have been written on just exactly what the definition of those are. Now I'm going to boil this down. If there's a lawyer in the room, they're going to say, oh man, I can't believe he's put in one sentence. But basically, for the normal everyday person, such as myself and you guys, that's what it is. Reasonable suspicion. The officer has to have at least a 25% belief that there's some kind of crime afoot, right? I always like using the word afoot, sounds like sure you like homes. But basically what we're looking at is that cop can't stop you for no reason at all. And that's a constitutional rule. It means they just can't walk up to you and stop you for no reason and force you to talk to them. Now, there's a catch there. Any cop in the world can walk up to you and start asking questions, but they can't hold you there unless they have at least reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Very common tactic police officers use is they come up and say, hey, could I talk to you for a second? And if you say yes, you're voluntarily talking to them. And you bet you can always turn them down. No, I'm busy, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. And they can't force you to talk to them unless they have this reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Probable cause, we bump it up even more. We're going to assign a 51% probability there's some kind of criminal activity afoot. Hang on with me because now we're going to talk about how we determine exactly what evidence we can use to figure out this reasonable suspicion or probable cause. And what we're going to look at and this comes right out of the case, I didn't make this up, we're going to look at the totality of the circumstances. We're going to look at everything that that officer knows and that officer is going to make a judgment whether or not they have reasonable suspicion, probable cause, or something else. And that includes suspects actions. Now when I'm driving down the road, minding my own business two weeks ago, all he had to do was look at the fact I was missing a headlight. My headlight was out. What does that mean? Well that means I'm in violation of a law. Yes a very very terrible law, but he has enough to stop me. So he had plenty of what's called probable cause to stop me or write a ticket. He can write a ticket but for you guys, you say well, you know, when I'm out how can those officers stop me for whatever? Let's say I know none of you guys are going to be out drinking tonight, okay? But let's assume one or two if you do, okay? And you're out drinking and you're a little bit tipsy and you're walking down the street. When can that officer stop you for being too intoxicated in public? Now I realize this is Vegas and what flies at home and what flies here is a big difference, but you can still get arrested, okay? Obviously your actions, right? If you're staggering, you're slobbering, you're just way out of line, all that officer has to do is observe you. And that's probably the most common way these officers pick up if there's enough evidence to reach these reasonable standards that they're going to decide whether or not to arrest you, okay? They're going to look at everything. Now some of you watch like CSI, right? Which I don't watch very often, but every once in a while. And basically what that whole process is, is them gathering evidence to get to the level of probable cause. They want to get to the point where they can arrest that person and haul them in. And as we all know, we need proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is even a higher standard to convict somebody, right? If I had to put a number of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it's like 99.5%, right? Or even higher. Well when do you get frisk? Now, I just came through the TSA checkpoint in my airport in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I got to be frisk. And he was eating. He basically just ordered me around. It wasn't a whole lot of evidence. But he decided he was going to frisk me. Well that's totally separate than what we're talking about. Because when you go through an airport checkout you're kind of, it's a consent type thing. I guess you could refuse. I don't know what they do if they physically, you know, frishe decide, well I'm not going to fly. I'm leaving now. I don't think I'd try it. You probably end up on a no-fly list later on. But out in the public, what can happen? When can an officer just walk up to you and frisk you? Well this goes back to a case called Terry versus Ohio. And that case is just a really good example about when an officer can and can't frisk you. And in that particular case, there's a detective in plain clothes and he knows the guy standing outside a jewelry store, I think it was. And he's standing there and every once in a while the guy would walk over and look in the window and then he'd walk back around the corner. And he did that several times. He also noticed that the guy's wearing a coat. Well it was summertime, right? Now this is where I was going to insert but I don't see any... I think it was like three years ago or four years ago or right after the matrix came out. We actually had a bunch of hackers wear the big leather trench coats and this is Vegas. And it was at least a hundred degrees. I don't know how they survived. If you're here, don't get mad at me. It's just a good interesting... I don't see them here today. Anyone see a leather trench coat? Anyway, it's summertime. What would you say is going on if you're that officer? Well it's pretty clear. The guy's wearing a heavy jacket. It's summertime. It's hot. And it certainly looks like he's casing the joint, right? In fact, the officer went over. He put the guy up against the wall and padded him down. Founder, I think, was a revolver in his pocket and made a rest. Well that case got appealed all the way to Supreme Court. Supreme Court said, you know what, that's reasonable. We're going to look at the circumstances. And that works not only on a person. If there's something about that individual's activity that makes him suspicious and that's something that the cop can actually state then we're probably going to be able to pad him down. And that is if you think about it, that's common sense, right? I mean, if the guy is acting in such a way we're not just going to ignore it and walk on or we're not going to wait for him to go in and rob the jewelry store. No, you have to have that. You have to reasonably believe criminal activity has taken place and the suspect may be armed. Well, what is a frisk? Well, the Supreme Court ruling basically said what we're going to do is allow you to look for weapons because that's what this is all about. It's about safety to the public, about safety to the officer and when you pat someone down, you're only going to look for weapons. Well, what's a weapon? Well, it can be a gun. It can be a knife. Those are either ones, right? But what if, you know, some of you are probably carrying mace right now, okay? Some of you are carrying a pocket knife. Well, what size pocket knife can be a weapon, all right? You could be carrying fingernail clippers. The airline reference? Okay, not that funny, I guess. All right, I'm trying. Well, whatever. If it can be a weapon, the officer can make you take it out of the pocket or more so likely they'll take it out of your pocket and so on and so forth. Well, what about, and here's what what if you have something in your pocket that is not a weapon but it's contraband, okay? For example, when I was a police officer and I always liked this was I pat someone down and it was clearly a bag of marijuana in their pocket and I look at them and say, is that a bag of marijuana? I'd be surprised how many people said yes it is, okay? Well, the basic rule is if the officer can determine from filling that pocket what it is and let's face it I've never used marijuana in my life. I remember I got a white hat but I've taken enough off people, especially if you guys buy the really poor crap marijuana, okay? That has a lot of sticks and seeds in it. I know none of you guys know what I'm talking about, okay? But if you got a bag of marijuana in your pocket and it has the sticks and seeds and a cop feels that, can the cop I mean, let's face it, everyone knows what that is, right? Now I guess you could, I've actually had people say, oh no, that's a bag of oregano because you're a cook and you're just I've had a few people say I don't know what you're talking about. There's a bag in my pocket? Yeah, there is. Anyway, the general rule is if the officer can figure out what that is from touching it, that it is contraband they can seize it, okay? Here's a big one that I always get from my own students, they ask a lot they'll even break it in the class. I got stopped and the officer did not even read me my rights. Okay, now here's the general rule we've all been programmed if I asked you all to recite the Miranda rules Miranda warning right now, you'd all could do it. I mean, we could have a little course going here, okay? Because we've seen it on TV so much, okay? But here's a rule you have to think about. The cop is never ever required to read you your Miranda rights. Now let me because that kind of pops a lot of bubbles here but let me clarify just a little bit. That cop does not have to read you your Miranda rights unless they want to use your information in court, okay? And I used to like, I mean let's do it this way, you go in your Rob 7-Eleven and you're on tape and you didn't wear a mask because you're kind of stupid and there's like four witnesses and three of them are nuns and the other one's a priest, okay? And you get caught by the police and there's all this good evidence the reality is the cop doesn't have to say let me read your rights. Now they'd be kind of lax it wouldn't be following their protocol if they didn't, but the reality is they don't ever have to read you your Miranda rights unless they want to use whatever you're going to tell them in court, okay? So, that's the thing to you know, I have people that didn't read my Miranda rights, does that mean I'm free? I can get the case overturned and my answer always is, well it depends it depends on if they're using whatever came out of your mouth as part of the evidence if that's what they're going to use to convict you then you're right, you know we can get the case overturned, okay? But Miranda rights only have to be read when you are in custody these are the rules and you're under interrogation Now, the custody is what comes down and you know, there's a lot of court cases and then there's court cases out there on interrogation but you know, when are you in custody? Well, if you're at handcuffed and back at the patrol car you can pretty much be assured you're in custody, okay? If you're down the jail cell you're in custody but that's usually not, you know when I was a detective what I would do to avoid being putting people in custody I would say, hey, hey, you know why don't you talk to me over here and why don't we go down the station and talk and I'm not going to drive you down there, you know because I got something to do later why don't you get in your car and follow me, okay? and I drive and this guy would get in his car and he'd follow me down the station and I'd say, you sure you want to talk to me? Yeah, yeah, you don't have to talk to me I understand but what I was doing was setting it up so I don't have to do Miranda because if he's not in custody, if he followed me to the police station, okay he's not in my car, okay I'm not following him if you ever had a cop behind you none of you have okay and you're worried oh my gosh there's a cop behind me I better do everything, if he tells me to go to the station then gets behind me, I feel like and you could argue that you're in custody, right? Well I always say, hey, follow me down there well it looks and at this stage of the proceedings there's any type of legal challenge I mean, look what I'm going to tell the judge judge, he wasn't in custody, I told him he didn't have to come and I told him to follow me have you ever heard anyone being arrested by, hey, get that car, follow me down you're under arrest, that doesn't happen, right? and so I would get this guy to come in and talk to me and force me the evil ones who are here, the one percent then he might say, oh that's terrible you tricked him, I didn't trick him follow me down, the guy followed me down it's like robbing 7-Eleven without a mask don't do it, okay? now, if anything if there is a press person here, that's the sound clip that's going to show up, right? I told you to rob 7-Eleven wearing a mask I can see that now on Dateline and then this lawyer told him to rob no okay it's a good thing I'm a lawyer because I'll sue not win, but I'll sue, damn it okay now here's the other things you need to worry about is Miranda Miranda is not required for common traffic stops if you get it, do get stopped for speeding or headlight they don't have to read your Miranda at no time and I'll tell you as a police officer I guess this might be verging into the area how to tell you how to commit crimes but we've all been stopped for speeding, or if you haven't living near work and don't have a car or something one of the things as an officer I do, if I'm writing tickets, I'd walk up and I'd say, you know, driver's license insurance, and while they're getting I'd say, you know what I stopped you for and if they said, yeah, speeding what is that? Confession, it's a confession and I'd write down back when I took it yeah, they said blah blah blah I couldn't lose, okay, they confessed not only did I have it on my radar but the police officer judgment well they can't come back later because there's a case out there, say hey, you know how it's common traffic stop, we do not need to do Miranda for that type of stuff another time they don't need it is booking questions you're under arrest, you're downtown you're being booked into the computer, what's your name what's your address you're allergic to any type of medicine, are you on any type of medicine they go through this big, I mean, anyone ever been arrested just checking see look at this, dateline if you're here Zero arrest, okay. Booking questions are not, does not require Miranda. Now I stuck DWI out here not because DWI were, I'm from, stands for driving law intoxicated, okay. That's what the charge is. There is, and I don't know if there's a case on this, but I'll tell you my secret that when I was a police officer, it was not my secret, it's not even a secret I guess, because it comes up in court. Basically, if you're slurring your words and say, what's your name? And you say, well, my name is Steve, and you forget your last name, okay. That's going to be used against you for drunk driving, okay, rightfully so. And the one thing I know is I have arrested a lot of drunk drivers. And I'll say this, you know, don't drink and drive, especially in Vegas, there's no need to drink and drive. I mean, they got, I mean, anyway, you guys don't need a lecture. But drinking and driving, usually the people who get arrested are so, I'm a Christian, so I'll say crap-faced drunk, okay. They are very, very, very drunk. You're not getting that, I mean, it's kind of a, it's obvious to everybody, okay. Let's talk about searches for a second, and we're going to talk about it in a way that you may not have thought of a search, and that is the definition of the search that we're going to use today is this, a government agent invading your privacy. And that's what you should always think about when it comes down to the search, okay. And there's a couple things that we need to take out of that. First of all, government agent, okay. And I get this question a lot. You're in Walmart. Walmart security stops you. They pull you off to the back room and they search your purse, or they search, you know, your pockets, okay. And every once in a while I get students, you know, they're always from another department, besides mine, they show up in my office, and, oh, Professor Donker, I've been, my constitutional rights have been violated by Walmart. Okay. It'd be a lot more funny after, I guess I should have told you the rule, Walmart cannot violate most of your constitutional rights. There's a few they can, you know, some of the protected classes, race, religion, that type of stuff. As far as searches, Walmart cannot violate your searches in 99.5% of the cases. They can't violate your constitutional rights because they're not a government agent. The Constitution, and if you're not paying attention, that's where you need to pay attention right here, okay. The Constitution protects the people from the government. It doesn't protect us from each other. It protects us from the government. If it isn't the government doing the action, then the Constitution, in most cases, and that's lawyer talk, most cases, most of the time, it just protects you from a government actor, okay. Now, that can be someone who's employed, you know, if you're, someone comes in your house and they're working for the police, may not actually be carrying a badge. They might just be in a form or something like that. They're still a government agent most of the time, okay. Now, search and seizure, when I teach this at, you know, at the university, it takes me weeks and weeks and weeks. I can't really, you know, I got five minutes, okay. You know, there's a lot more out there. The other thing you have to look at is reasonable expectation of privacy. Do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy? That's one of the questions you have to ask. And right now, if you think about it, do you guys have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your backpack, your purse, and the answer, you shake your head, yes, okay. A cop's not going to walk up to you. I'll pick on the guy in the front row with a big red backpack. You're American, aren't you? Okay, just checking. Not if you're not American, you're bad. I'm just worried about terrorists. We actually, was it last year, we had the guy who wore the turban. He won't remember. A year before, I don't know. When you get old, your mind starts to go, your guy wearing a turban carrying a backpack around DEF CON. And for some reason, he had like a buffer of no one around him as he walked around. And I thought about doing it to help me get through the crowds. You know, I thought, that's pretty cool. I'll just put a tap. No, I won't go there. Reasonable expectation of privacy. Search isn't it to arrest, legal arrest will offer search of the suspect in the surrounding area. Now this can be bad if your friend comes over your house and gets arrested in your living room and you have something in your living room that you don't want the cops to find out, right? Because the basic constitutional rules are that if you get arrested, the police can search anywhere in the general area. It used to be called the lunge, wherever they could lunge and grab a hold of a weapon or the wingspan, whatever they could actually touch. The cops could search. And what they were searching for is weapons, okay? And of course, if they found contraband, that could certainly be seized. But if you get arrested out of the car or Bob or Sue is riding with you in your car and you get stopped and they have a warrant, your car is going to get searched because Bob and Sue were arrested out of your car, okay? And that may not make you very happy, especially if you had, you know, it's a hitchhiker, right? It could be bad, right? No, we're all good here. Motor vehicle searches. As long as they have probable cause, probable slides, you know, this idea that we have enough evidence, believe some kind of criminal activities occurring, they're going to be able to search your car. And the idea behind that goes way back before, almost before they even had cars, believe it or not, it goes way back to some of the, like the very first car case ever. They said, well, we can't get a warrant and these cars are mobile, they move around a lot and we're going to require no search warrant for an officer to search these cars. The other thing that comes up when I get questions on this is, all right, they've searched my car. They have probable cause. And believe it or not, one of the common things I used to get at least once a week is a domestic violence case when I was a police officer. And they said, oh yeah, Bob just drove by the house and flashed a handgun and said he was going to kill us all, okay? Well, when the cop catches up to Bob, can Bob search his car? And the answer is yes. What's he looking for? A handgun. If there's a little film caster, and I know this is at a digital age, but those of you who are old enough, remember the 35 millimeter film casters? If you're a doper, you probably remember that today. I don't know. Then again, if you're a doper, you probably don't. My students hate it when I use the word doper. I don't know, maybe they're dopers or something. It's not dope. It's weed. I don't know from my generation if you're smoking. Well, anyway, I used to put it in the film casters, you know, trip down memory lane. They put it in the film casters. Well, if I'm searching for a gun, can I pop open that film caster? Well, the general rule is no, if I had probably called to search for a gun, I can't look for a gun in a film caster. Why? This isn't a trick question. It's because the film caster's too small to hold a gun. Now, if they had a briefcase, can I pop the briefcase to look for that weapon? Yeah, okay. All right, let's see. I can't hear you. I'm going to have a question ashen period just in a second here, and we're real close to being done with the overheads here. When can the police kick your door in? Not that you hackers ever worry about this. Some of you lay awake at night. No, we're all good here. We don't do anything, right? Just shake your head, yes. Smile at the person next to you in case they have a date-line camera in their bag. You knock and announce as a general rule. That is a rule put down Supreme Court saying, you know, anytime you go serve a search warrant in someone's house, you have to knock and tell them who you are. Now, if you ever watch cops, you know, sometimes it's police, and then they kick the door, right? Believe it or not, that satisfies that rule. Now, I don't think... I don't think that's what the Supreme Court justices had in mind, right? But I haven't seen a case where, you know, it's like knock and wait for them to answer, you know, to do that. Well, there are some exceptions to that. Safety, if you think the person on the other side of the door has a gun, okay, or some other weapon they may use against you, and I remember one case, a guy on the other side of the door had a sword. I'm not sure what was going on there, but they had a sword. Destruction of evidence, and I will go back. But at the only time I've ever had an actual... an actual... an actual... an actual... an actual guy come up, and he did not follow my rules of saying hypothetical, and he was also kind of a criminal. If you're here today, don't be mad, but he came up to me and asked me the best way to destroy his hard drive in case they kicked the door and do it in a very fast manner. And all I said was, get away from me, you know. My FBI files, I don't want it to be thick, okay? I want it to, you know, I want it to have, you know, he's a speaker, he's a speaker, you know. By the way, you probably all have files now, okay, but I'm coming here. I take that back. Alright, destruction of evidence. If they think, you know, if you're really a hacker and they've tracked you down, they're probably going to kick your door on this... exception, destruction of evidence. They don't want you wiping your hard drive, right? Exclusionary rule, exclusionary rule says that if they don't follow all the procedures we just talked about, then we can not use that against you in court of law. Okay, so if they have a bad search, they read you, or did not read you your Miranda rights and... but they want to use what they found out from your testimony in the interrogation room against you in a court of law, they're not going to let that happen. If there's a legal search, they're not going to let any type of evidence be used that's gained from that illegal search. Finally, double jeopardy. And this, we have to go back and visit OJ, because you guys care. Remember OJ, okay? Yeah, he killed his wife and the waiter, okay? Allegedly, the guy did it, okay? He can sue me if he wants. No, actually, he's a killer, okay? And you guys are like easy, aren't you? OJ, bad man, okay? All right. Anyway, double jeopardy. Double jeopardy says that if there is a criminal statute at both the state and federal levels, you can be charged at both the state and federal levels. Now, when we talk about computer crime, I know there are a few of the criminals that are in this room, they're coming after you, both state and federal, if you are a really bad dude. Now, for the rest of us, what we just need to know next time we watch, you know, those crime TV shows, basically double jeopardy prevents you from being tried for the crime twice. Once you are acquitted, they can't try you ever again. And in the OJ case, it's a good representation of that. OJ was tried in state court and there was two murders, right? There's a murder of his ex-wife and the murder of the waiter. And some of the questions I got, well, why didn't they just try him for the wife first and then when that failed, they could turn around and try again for the waiter. And there's some legal principles in there we're not going to get too deep into, but basically it all kind of comes back to double jeopardy. You're going to be tried for crime one time. But if there had been a federal criminal statute, which there isn't for killing your wife, he could have been tried in federal court, but that's non-existent, okay? And the only way you could do that nowadays is if your wife was a federal agent and you killed her, you could be tried in state court and federal court, okay? All right, listen up here so you don't get this wrong, okay? Questions for the criminal justice professor must be hypothetical. Look at that as a good college professor. I even gave you the definition of hypothetical, okay? And there's always one person that blows this. Do not start your question here with I, okay? Just say, hypothetically, all right? We used to have some microphones. I guess they didn't put none in. I guess I'm not speaking very well. They didn't put none in. Speak up loud, so, yes, sir? Okay, everyone, I'll say, I have to repeat your question because some people couldn't hear it. His hypothetical, which he failed to use the word, a police officer breaks into your house, does not have a search warrant, actually stills a piece of evidence, and later on it's determined in court action, I assume, that that evidence cannot be used against the person whose house that was. The question was, why cannot, or why can that police officer not be charged with burglary? And the answer is, he can, okay? And that sounds, I mean, if you can prove all the elements you just told me, he's a burglar and he committed a crime. Now, the way it works though in those charges is a prosecutor. And so, if the prosecutor declines to file charges, those charges aren't going to be um, uh, on, okay? Now, the only exception is that some counties have, uh, what's called grand juries, which are made up of people. Just out, they pick them, off the voter rolls or driver's license, and they get them together once a year, and they go through cases that basically their job is to keep the prosecutor honest, so there isn't stuff like that happening, okay? So you might look for a grand jury in your area if there is one, if there isn't. You could also do a civil 1983 action where you sue the police officer for violation of your constitutional rights. And that's, I mean, I can teach a whole class in 1983, so I can't tell you much more on that. 1983 is just a civil rights action, a federal civil rights action for people who violate uh, go ahead and stand up who violate your civil rights, and you gotta yell out, are you that guy I talked to a couple years ago? Get away from us all. Okay, you know, I answered this question, this question doesn't go away. I will tell you this, okay? In my experience, destroying evidence is gonna get you more time than just letting them find evidence, okay? Now let me explain why, okay? It's a federal law and state law that says that destruction of evidence is a felony, okay? And the fact that you have this alarm system rigged up, I mean, can you ask for better proof? I mean, at least if you, you know, you know, I'm not, you can see I still have not programmed my badge, don't make fun of me, because I'm not a tech guy, I'm a lawyer guy, I'm a legal guy. But I know, you know, if you have your alarm system rigged up to wipe your hard drive, you're going to jail, maybe not for what's on your hard drive, but you're going to jail for destruction of evidence. And, you know, chances are you get a lighter sentence for whatever's on your hard drive, unless you're a really bad dude, and you know, hopefully you don't look like a bad dude, you know, us cops we like to think we have, you know, you've heard of I have cremdar. I can tell criminals from miles away. Let me ask this guy in the front row. No. His, I'm sorry, the question was, use of encryption, is that probable cause for any crime answers? No. Now, once again, I'm not tech guy, I don't know, you might ask the EFF people or something, and you guys probably know this better than me. I think there is a law about exporting encryption, you know, so don't do that. Make sure you're not giving away what, okay, you know, keep it to yourself here in America. The question was, if I'd ask or if I talk about checkpoints, you know, DWI checkpoint, DUI checkpoint, those are exceptions to this rule for reasonable suspicion and probable cause. And, you know, there's a couple of people in here my age, and if you're like me, I just kind of brought up on these Nazi movies, you know, my dad said, come on son, there's a war movie on. We sit there and it's always, you know, your papers please, I can't do a German accent, but just insert German accent there, the Gestapo or your papers please. And when I became a police officer, I was actually a police officer against checkpoints, okay, because it was very Nazi-like, okay. But unfortunately, the old men on the Supreme Court and old women on the Supreme Court don't believe that's the same thing, okay. I don't, I think as Americans, we should be able to go and not be impeded by the government unless we have committed a crime. And I'll tell you, as a police officer, I never ever had a problem finding a drunk, okay. I could drive down the road and tell you, boom, I can still do it today, you know, and if there's probably a few police officers in here, they'll tell you that same thing. Checkpoints are just to me, for what we traded off for the right to have checkpoints, it's illegal to do checkpoints. It wasn't worth it. He said lazy cops. He said lazy cops. Uh, boy. Let's go over here by the door. The question was, search warrants for car. Okay, I haven't heard that. I couldn't help you out with that at all. I'll talk about that in class. Yeah, I don't know. In Oklahoma, as long as you're breathing, you don't have a criminal record you get a gun, okay. It could still carry for a minute, okay. I'm not kidding, you know. And that's a good thing, I think. And I'm actually, but let me say this, because I know the guy coming on after me actually is a friend of mine and so gave him a lot of heck, okay. But they're talking about guns on Sunday, and I'll tell you my experience, before you run out and spend all this money on weapons and training and everything, I used to carry a gun for a living, and it was actually irritating to carry this big heavy. It felt like I had a pocket full lead off duty, okay. Now on duty I realized I had to carry it. But I got to the point, I hated to carry it again. I know you might think it's weird, but I don't want you to go out and spend a thousand bucks and say I'm going to carry a gun, because you won't carry it very much, okay. Let's go right here. Yeah. I think there's some current cases on that, and I don't know the answer on it. I would say, don't do it until you talk to your lawyer, you know. Wait for the subpoena. And once you get the subpoena, that's when the court and argued, no, we're not going to do this. But my gut feeling is just from similar type cases, you're going to end up having to give it. Let me go to the guy next to him. Maybe we do have criminals in here. Hypothetically, if his house is being searched by the feds, go ahead. Okay, the question is, can the feds bring help? Can they bring along their state and local police officers? The answer is yes they can. It says they can't bring along the media anymore, okay. But they can bring along local police. How much time I got left? Okay. Okay, I got seven minutes left. Let me go to this guy on the corner. He's been waiting patiently. Another criminal wants to know about the hard drive wipe. Just kidding, he's a good guy. The question is this. What happens if you just wipe your hard drive every week? If you're sensitive and you're screwed now because you're on tape, if you're wiping your hard drive because it has incriminating evidence and you're probably guilty of that federal statute, if you're wiping it just because you're a housekeeper, I got a wife, if it's not in the place she gets upset and she goes over and moves it to where it's supposed to be, if you just wipe your hard drive because that's the way you are, you like to keep a tidy computer, you're probably going to be okay. You guys can all come over and I'm going to ask you to come help me. Shake hands. Another Oklahoma professor. One more. Let's go. He wants to know about, let's say he's carrying a cell phone or he's carrying a small PC, a laptop, whatever in your car. I don't know, maybe have a van full of computer electronics. What are the rules? Basically, they still have to have that probable cause and let's say that you're out driving around and not that you're doing anything wrong but you're just checking for that free Wi-Fi spot, right? And a cop stops you and there's a laptop sitting there. Can the cop search your laptop? The answer is no, they can't. They can't, can they look at your cell phone and look up who you've been calling and who's in your cell and the answer is no, they can't. Unless there's some probable cause there but even on the street, they're not going to be able to I think, I'm kind of looking here at the other professor and he's ignoring me, but I think the rule is they have to have a search warrant. There's a case out there where they looked up, a guy had a cell phone, they looked up they tried to establish he was with some druggers and I think they threw that out. He's ignoring. Alright. Let's go over here. Same. I can't hear you. You got to yell a little bit louder. How can the schools search lockers and so on and so forth? Cell phones. Because the Supreme Court basically has said that the public schools are about three steps below God and they can do that. Okay. And it goes to safety. If you're a school and you go before the Supreme Court you're almost always going to win this idea that they're acting in the best interest of the kids. Let me go back here. He can just say shut up and stand over there and he can make everyone get out. Let me say this real quick, because I got probably two minutes left. Three minutes. When you come to the police officer it's just like you. Wherever you are working at let's say you're working and I don't mean this in a draugatory way. This is just like one of the first jobs I ever had when I was 16. I was working Taco Bell. Well someone comes up to the counter and they're ordering from me. If you piss me off you're going to get a bad taco. No, not really. But maybe you're not going to get as good as you see it. The same thing with police officers if you're nice to them. I'll tell you the truth, I got stopped a couple weeks over the headlight. I was real nice and polite and not only because that's kind of my nature but because I also know that if I said what are you stopping me for? I'll tell you the truth. He was running a, we used to call him Honey Holes back where I worked at and what it was it's a big stretch of highway where the speed limit is so low and that's what he was working. He needs, and I know if there's copy, oh no, no, that's not true. But every cop actually has a ticket quota. They have to fill their quota. They have to run, they have to get a bunch of tickets or they get in trouble for not doing anything. And it was late at night, his shift was just about over and this highway patrolman had to get his ticket count up. And that's what he's doing. He's running this honey hole and I just happened to just stupid enough to drive through it and I wasn't speeding but I had a headlight out on his nighttime. He used the cops, he let me go, he could have wrote me, I think he told me, oh this is a $198 ticket, I'm not going to write it though, I'm going to let you go, just get that fixed. Yes sir. Hypothetically, how can Walmart detain you and take you in the back room? Okay. It's going to be based on your state citizens arrest laws. Remember Barney Fife? Citizens are ass, citizens are ass. Man, I might be too old for most of you. Most states actually have a statute that allows citizens to arrest other citizens and that's what Walmart's going on. What I would do, you know, this is going to make dateline, he told shoplifters how to shoplift. No. If anyone ever comes up to you and says hey I need you to come with me, you're under suspicion for doing this, say hey wait a minute, what are you talking about? And question them out there, don't do anything violent, just remain passive, don't raise your voice and make them talk to you because I don't know, if someone comes up to me they'd better talk to me because there's enough strange weird people, this is Vegas that would ask you to do stuff that you should do. We actually had some people acting as police officers pulling over women and then molesting them back in Oklahoma and you guys probably have that here. We've had people that wait outside payday loan companies and when you come out with your money they get you to stop and then it turns out their robbers are not even on authority. Yes, last person probably, two minutes. That's probably, that's way beyond me. I will say this about the feds, okay? Two minutes? Okay, two minutes. I will say this about the feds and this is one of the reasons I actually talk here. You guys are actually our future defense. Now you may not know that right now, some of you do. There's a reason, you know why the feds come here every afternoon. They're here this afternoon, right? Meet the feds. You know what that is. You think they're just being nice? Come on in, meet me. I like you. You know here, have some teen cookies. You know what they're doing? No, they're recruiting. They're not sitting there and saying, oh, there's Bob, get a picture of him. We'll put him in our database. No, they want to recruit Bob and Sue into the federal service. Now most of you know that, but there's a few out there, Dateline, NBC or whoever's here trying to catch you guys being evil. I mean, the feds don't show up here just because they're after criminals. They're after recruits. You guys are the future defense of this country, right? Now let me say something on that, because I do post a lot of students through the system and I got federal officers, state officers, all kinds of people doing stuff. But one of the things that does get you in trouble if you try to go into federal service or any other type of law enforcement is your past behavior. Say no to drugs now, okay? I'm serious. If you drank the alcohol, I guess it's okay to be a drunken FBI agent. But it's time to put if you're looking for federal service or federal job, you need to stop the marijuana right now and certainly don't experiment with anything heavier if that's what you're looking for. Because I hate to, in my opinion, you guys are, like I said, everyone knows about the war between Russia and who was it. You know, the cyber war. That's the future. And you guys are the soldiers in that. That's going to save my eBay account, okay? And you better do it, okay? We need you. So don't screw it up by, you know, going out there and trying some some nonsense that you don't need anyway, you know. All right, any more questions come across the hall? I'll be there and I'm drafting this other answer to be there.