 Nice to see you all here, those in the room and the 80 or so registered online, you're also equally welcome. My name is Paul Lakeland. I direct the Center for Catholic Studies and I welcome you to this, the third and last of our living theology sessions for this semester. And the event that you are attending is entitled, Building a Church that Excludes No One, the US Church and Transgender Policies. Before I hand it over to our chair for the evening, I just want to make a point about questions. So we have the audience here and the audience out there. The audience here, Kevin Malloy here is going to hand out cards. So if you have a question as the event goes on, write the question down and we'll collect them up and we'll handle the questions that way. If you are online, you will see on your screen in the bottom corner a Q&A button and you can type your question in to that box and I will be collecting those questions for later in the session. And the thing about online is, the moment it pops into your head, you can write it down. You don't have to wait till the end and you can be anonymous or you can put your name in entirely up to you. So that's how we'll proceed. We'll be here for an hour or so. So I think that's all the business. So without any more ado, I'm going to hand over to our emcee for the evening, Kevin Malloy from Campus Ministry. Thank you. Good evening all. My name is Kevin Malloy. I teach in religious studies. I use pronouns he, him, and I welcome you this evening. Just before Thanksgiving on Thursday, November 17th, the university community came together to remember those transgender individuals who were killed this year. We have an annual Transgender Day of Remembrance vigil in the chapel. At that service, we lit candles and heard the names of 32 people. Those 32 names and lives represented only the documented cases of anti-transgender violence for this past year. Some three nights later, on the eve of Transgender Day of Remembrance, a gunman killed two more transgender individuals along with three other members of the queer community in the club queue massacre in Colorado Springs. These numbers that we recall do not reflect all transgender folks who have lost their lives this year, including folks who have died by suicide, a number we know to be disproportionately higher than the national average. And at the same time, at that event, we celebrate the vibrancy, the resilience, and the creativity of the transgender community. As we all are creatures of a mysterious God, our trans and gender expansive siblings help unravel the infinite mystery of our God and invite us to new and creative ways of being church. In the U.S., we have an almost constant debate about whether or not rhetoric and legislation are directly tied to acts of violence. We see this most predominantly right now and in the situation with January 6th, where pundits, politicians, the Justice Department, and individual tweeters are speculating whether or not words spoken in public and in policy can inspire people to commit violence. At the same time, in the U.S. Church, dioceses have begun to institute policies regarding transgender people. Some of these policies are public, while others are private internal documents within dioceses. They have real life consequences for parishes, hospitals, foster care systems, adoptions, and most primarily for schools. Tonight, we will examine these policies, where they are coming from, what they are saying, and what effect they are having on transgender Catholics, their families and allies, our church, and our world at large. To frame our discussion tonight, I'd add that this year in Rome, Pope Francis was meeting with a group of Italians who were working for LGBTQ plus inclusion in the church. And Pope Francis encouraged that group to keep working toward, quote, building a church that excludes no one, end quote. Whether or not the church's rhetoric on transgender people contributes to violence against them, or that the targeting of this already marginalized group represents a failure of our gospel mission, we ask tonight, do these policies help build a church that excludes no one? And to aid in that discussion, we are lucky to have two esteemed panelists with us this evening. Robert Shine, he, him, is Associate Director of New Ways Ministry, a Catholic outreach that educates and advocates for LGBTQ plus equality in the church and society, where he has served since 2012. He regularly leads educational programs on issues such as transgender or gender identity and Catholicism, the Catholic case for LGBTQ plus non-discrimination, and developing inclusive Catholic schools. Bob is managing editor of Bonding's 2.0, a daily blog of LGBTQ plus Catholic news, opinion, and spirituality. He has degrees in theology from the Catholic University of America and the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry. Michael Sennett, he, him, is the Director of Communications and Coordinator of Social Justice Programming at St. Ignatius of Loyola Church in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts. His passion for LGBTQ plus ministry began while he was in college. In 2018, he graduated from St. Xavier University in Chicago, Illinois with a degree in communications. He hopes to further study theology. Thank you both for being here. Bob and Michael have graciously agreed to open with some introductory remarks and then answer a few questions that I have prepared for them before turning it over to you all on Zoom and in person to answer your questions. As Dr. Lakeland said, if you have questions, feel free to raise your hand and we can give you a card to write your questions so that we can ask them of the panelists. So I turn it over to Bob for his opening remarks with my thanks for being here. Thank you, Kevin. And good evening, everyone. I, when the question was posed to these policies, help us build a church that excludes no one. I thought it's a very short program. No, they do not. We can all go home now. And, you know, but I think what I'd like to do is talk a little bit about what, set the context. What are these policies and how can we work to either improve them or resist them depending on the context? So I've been tracking these policies for about three or four years. And so far we have nearly three dozen U.S. diocese that have issued some sort of written document on gender identity. They're primarily or often related to Catholic education, but not exclusively. So think of anything that's going on in the church, not only education, parish life, employment, these policies tend to be fairly comprehensive. The policies differ in terms of their length, in terms of their tone, their specificity, the intensity of the restrictions that are being placed on trans and non-binary people. So some of them are just like a page or two. And some of them are 25 pages with all the minutiae you could think of. And sometimes I sit there and wonder, did some staffer just sit there and think of like every possible situation of a queer or trans person entering the church? And then decide to develop a policy on it. So in the most restrictive forms, like the Archdiocese of Denver, which has had a policy for several years that was private and was made public last month, the restrictive ones have a wide variety of prohibitions. So for instance, trans and non-binary students could be denied admission or re-enrollment to Catholic schools. LGBTQ folks are banned from parish ministries. In extreme cases, queer folks have been barred from the sacraments so they can't receive communion, or as happened in the Diocese of Springfield, folks who were in a same-gender marriage weren't allowed to have funerals at the church. Some of these policies mandate that educators or pastoral ministers deliberately have to misgender the people they're serving. So they have to use names, pronouns, and identities that might be on legal records but are not chosen by the individual student or parishioner. Some of these ban any education on LGBTQ topics in Catholic schools so there's no discussion of diverse sexual and gender identities. Some prohibit students from receiving medical care. So if a high school student is receiving hormone treatment, they can't do that on church property, which presents immense difficulties to certain students. And then one of the other things that has been even longer term than these gender policies is church workers' employment contracts having what are called morality clauses that say you have to abide by different things. You can't go to a same-gender couple's wedding or you can't come out or you can't be open that your child is trans, otherwise you can be fired. And in the last 10 years that I've been following these, it's like I think we have 120 public firings of LGBTQ and ally church workers. And I would just note tonight's discussion is on the restrictions being placed on trans and non-binary people in the church, but a lot of these policies also do sort of affect the entire LGBTQ spectrum. For instance, you're looking at prohibitions on same-gender prom dates or something like that. They focus on gender but then they sort of spill over. A few notes about the policies. So often they have two sections. The first is sort of guiding principles or catechesis, a teaching section about why the bishop is enacting this. And then the second part would be the specific policies. The first sections almost always rely on a theology of complementarity. So this is the idea that there's only men and women in a very binary form and you have to accept the sex you were assigned at birth and there is something special or unique to the male-female coupling. So it's standard stuff, I guess. But there's also some bishops take it further. So some bishops have compared being trans to sexual abuse, to disordered eating, to original sin. They in some ways have intensified the rhetoric that is being used against LGBTQ folks. There is an effort in some of these policies to be pastoral, to be compassionate, but that often looks like we should care for this student who has gender dysphoria and help them to accept the sex they were assigned at birth as God created them rather than affirming their gender and who they know themselves to be. So I don't know if it's quite conversion therapy, but that's often sort of the road that the pastoral dimension of these documents go down. A few more things. One, it's likely we'll see more of these. I know of several that are probably going to be released in January. So you're looking at a growing number. But I would point out there are 200 Latin right diocese in the US, and we're talking about maybe 40. So this is not the majority of diocese. There's still an opportunity to do better. And what I want to say is just to give you a little international context to think about. The New Zealand bishops conference just put out a wonderful document on guidance about how to deal with trans students. The Australian bishops have done similarly. The New Zealand bishops focus not on the ethics of sexuality and gender, but their focus is how do you ensure that students or parishioners are treated in a just way? Their emphasis is social justice. In Germany, there's a process called the Synodal Way that has bishops and lay people talking to each other. And they've issued a document calling for the bishops to affirm trans-non-binary intersex people and for the church to come out in full support. And they actually have Mara Klein is a non-binary member of this Synodal Assembly. In other places, Kevin mentioned Pope Francis' outreach. In Italy, there's an archdiocese formally ruled that a trans person could be confirmed using their chosen name. And so you see, I guess my point is in the US, it's really kind of a tough situation. But when we're looking for how the church can do better, we have to keep a global perspective because people are doing it better. So I'll pass it over to you, Michael. Thanks, Bob, and thank you, Kevin, and welcome everyone here tonight. So in terms of how the faithful are responding to these policies, it's very difficult to lump the faithful into one category. People are all over the lot and not just on the issue of transgender policies, but on everything. We know that Catholics disagree about a lot of controversial topics like abortion and birth control. But looking at some statistics, and this was done by the Pew Research Center both in 2021 and 2022, and in 2021, it was found that 52% of Catholics believed that gender was determined by sex assigned at birth. And now in 2022, the number has jumped to 62%, which has definitely been influenced by a lot of the anti-transgender rhetoric that we're seeing and hearing as a result of the policies that many dioceses are releasing or that are influencing them to make these policies in the first place. And but interestingly, though, for the numbers of Catholics who believe that society has gone too far with acceptance, that number's at 37%, but the number of Catholics who think that society has not gone far enough in accepting and supporting transgender people is 34%, so that's actually not too far off. And so that provides a little hope, I think, and is showing that the faithful, even though they might have a belief about what gender and sex are, they are willing to realize that we have to care for each person, that everyone has human dignity and that we need to minister and welcome people. And we see that in a variety of different ways. Parishes have LGBTQ ministries and so many are doing a lot more to welcome transgender people, like with doing vigils or services for the Trans Day of Remembrance in November. And I know Kevin mentioned that Fairfield did a service here. And the parish I work at, we've done, we started doing a Trans Day of Visibility service in March because that's when that annual day is. And we also, aside from just mourning the loss and feeling a lot of sorrow for the lives who have been taken, which is definitely needed, we also want to be able to celebrate people being visible and recognizing them and giving them the power to be themselves and letting them speak their truth. But on the other side of that then, there are dioceses and different organizations that are coming out really strongly. And using the rhetoric that transgender people are predators, especially with bathrooms. And so that fuels a lot of fear. But then there's also so many different Catholic advocates right now. Father Jim Martin, he has been pretty outspoken, mostly on LGB issues, but he's beginning to embrace more discussion about transgender folks. And Sister Louisa Derowin, who has ministered to transgender people for over two decades at this point, and she's just starting to step out of that. But she's allowed trans folks and non-binary folks and intersex people to speak to different Catholic leaders. For example, in 2021 in the spring, I was part of a group of transgender people who spoke to Bishop Thomas Zinkula in the Archdiocese of Davenport. It was done through Zoom and we shared our own personal stories. And the Archdiocese of Davenport used that to shape some of their own guidelines and policies in dealing with transgender people. And I don't think it's any coincidence that they were a lot more positive. Because I think one of the biggest issues is that a lot of these policies, or I would say even all of them, have lacked the voices of transgender people. We're not invited to the table. We're not asked about our own experiences, our own faith journeys. And it's very exclusive. And they're only getting that one side of the discussion, the side that they wish to hear themselves, that validates their own point of view. But when folks have been able to meet us and talk and really have a true dialogue, there becomes a mutual understanding that creates a lot better space for transgender Catholics. And I'll say more about all of that too, but that's pretty much what I wanted to touch on just to begin with in giving the background about how the faithful are just so split. It's not that everyone's accepting or everyone's rejecting. It just depends on where you happen to be, what parish resources you have available to you, and the attitudes of people in your area. Thank you both for sharing. I have some questions for you both. Bob Shine is what I call a church policy wonk, which he hates. So this question is for Bob, but Michael, please, if you have any thoughts. It seems to me that individual dioceses, even as you were talking about 40, about 40 out of 200, and then different policies in New Zealand, Australia, even Germany, it seems very decentralized for what we think is a centralized church. And I'm wondering if you have any kind of idea of why there's no central policy or what the Vatican has to say about any of this and what Pope Francis' take on all of this is? Sure. I think the Vatican attempted a centralized take. In 2019, what was formerly known as the Congregation for Catholic Education was to put out a document called, Male and Female, He Created Them. It was supposed to be guidance for Catholic schools on gender. And it wasn't as restrictive as a lot of the U.S. policies, but it wasn't good. I mean, it was nonaffirming. And it got a lot of critique, and I think people in Rome heard that critique, and they realized that they hadn't done a good job. In fact, the head of that office acknowledged like a week later, he was like, yeah, we didn't talk to any trans people. I guess we should have done that. So, I mean, I think they made a first attempt. They did a poor job. There's been more caution now about what the church is to do on this. The Vatican is much more willing now under Francis to discern the question, not to rush to judgments and policies, but really figure this out. This is speculation now, or rumor, but I have heard that the Vatican, the U.S. Bishops Conference, wanted to put out a centralized document. They also wanted to have a national document on gender, and the Vatican actually intervened to stop that. And so what has happened since is Bishops who are particularly strong on this are now putting out their own policies. And now it seems maybe the Vatican is now trying to stop this in the U.S. with the fear that it will spread to other countries and have an explosion of these policies popping up in different dioceses around the world. So I don't know. Maybe a universal policy is coming, but I don't think so, because I think people high enough up in the Vatican realize that even for society, questions around gender identity are newer for society. It's not that trans and non-binary folks just popped up. I don't want to make that claim, but the world is grappling with these questions in a new way, and I think there are church leaders who are saying, we should sit back and listen and learn and try to figure this out before rushing to treat it in a punitive way. No, nothing to add about that. Thanks, Bob. Michael, you were sharing that you suspect that zero policies consulted any trans Catholics or trans people in the writing of their policies, and that Davenport did, and it came out to be a little more affirming or a little more careful and caring because they spoke to trans folks. Can you share a little with folks what you think the real-life costs to these restrictive policies are for trans Catholics, their parents, their families? I'm thinking primarily of the Archdiocese of Denver, which explicitly bans trans youth from Catholic schools and actually denounces the idea of parents affirming trans children as a healthy way of parenting. What's the real-life cost here? I think the immediate concern with cost that comes to mind is the loss of so many innocent lives, especially to suicide. It's no surprise that the suicide rate for trans people and trans youth, especially, is so high because people are being told to reject their loved ones, that it's being who they are is wrong, it's disordered, and so that, I mean, you're telling people to reject the dignity of another person, and that's extremely tragic. Other consequences that come out of that are estranged family relationships, a lot of trauma, people feeling isolated, like they don't belong, and the church I think has kind of been grappling with the fact that so many people don't feel welcomed and they're making sort of baby steps into having those dialogues and conversations, but it feels that with every step forward it's almost two steps back and I mean particularly in Denver I'm thinking of, I think it was the fall 2018, a young woman named Alana Faith Chen, and who she identified as a lesbian, but because of her, she was very close with religious in the archdiocese of Denver and ended up completing suicide because she was led to believe that she was worthless and was sinful and that God didn't love her and she was evil and it was so much for her to deal with and eventually she ended her life. We invited her mother to speak at our parish last spring and it was heartbreaking to hear the account of her story and undoubtedly there are trans people who are in that same position who feel like they're not worthy, that they shouldn't be alive and that they're not loved for who they are and these policies are only worsening that. They're driving people to the point of isolation and desperation and not everyone will end their life, but so many people have already and it's just so counter-intuitive to the church's love of life and their embrace of human dignity and it's just so worrisome to know that there are trans youth out there struggling who feel that they can't come out to their parents because of how the bishops have guided the faithful to act and believe and of course there are always people who disagree and will make their own decisions and have their own ideas and views about trans people and how to encounter them but for people who do hold on to the words of Catholic hierarchy it's very damaging and it encourages families and parents and adults who have significant roles in children and youth lives to reject them and it's creating a lot of hurt and despair. I have another question for both of you but based on Bob's opening statement I think it's a short answer from Bob at least. So if folks have questions and want to write them down and hold them up we can come around and pick them up and then Q&A or the online folks can turn them in but for both of you our title here was building a church that excludes no one from Pope Francis my original question to you was do these policies really build a church of inclusion and if Bob said you could answer the question no and leave what would be a better approach to fulfilling Francis's vision for this church? Well I would say briefly that part of the problem with the Catholic church is that we take decades and centuries to change and I also think that's one of the great gifts that we don't, in the best part of our tradition we are willing to sit with questions, we're willing to learn, we're willing to tease them out we're willing to engage people's experiences I think that's what we need to do, I think we're in a learning phase I think we're in a phase that we need to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying through trans and non-binary people, through their families through the pastoral ministers working with the community through the theologians, through the entire faithful who have something to offer to this conversation discernment is very difficult in that it leaves us without clear answers sometimes but I would hope that what Catholics would become more comfortable with is sitting with the discomfort that we don't have clear answers and by that I don't mean we shouldn't do affirmation I mean I don't want to suggest that the question is are trans identities valid but I think the questions we are dealing with are what do you do when you have a 12 year old at a Catholic school come out how do you support that child, what's the best way to do that how do you acknowledge when someone transitions their role in the faith community that this person has taken on a more authentic identity and how do we recognize that liturgically for instance so when I say questions I don't want to be seen as whether we should respect trans people when they tell us who they are but how does the church pastorally serve in its different ministries in ways that are supportive and I just hope we can be willing to take the time to get a good response rather than a quick one I think one of the more obvious ways for me at least is just going back to Scripture and looking at how Jesus calls us to embrace other people you know in Isaiah we hear enlarge your tent and I think by making these spaces bigger and more inclusive and starting there and being more welcoming that's the first step and then you know when we have these people when we have people together we can dialogue and learn from one another and that's something the Synod on Synodality has really reminded me of is the importance of conversation and dialogue because I think as a transgender person myself I sometimes am so impatient for the church to just move forward even though I really like what you just said Bob about how our rich tradition takes the time and we keep coming back to these questions and throughout the Synodal process I've met so many genuinely amazing people who just don't know what transgender people who they are that we're just like them we have families and lives and passions too and really taking the time to talk to them and learn about them and their own fears and walking them through that has been a learning experience for me it's humbled me a little bit and it's really given me the opportunity to grow in my own faith and so I think when we are following Jesus's call to walk with one another and welcome one another it enriches all of us and it can only make our church and our faith stronger and also by recognizing too that I think a lot of the time when we talk about the church we put the onus on our hierarchy and they should be making better statements of welcome to people that's no question but we are also the church each one of us and when we come together too what we do matters and it's so powerful and that's the work we are the hands and feet of God and so we have a lot of work to do too and so I think each taking our own personal responsibility and looking at what that means whether it's educating people in our community or educating ourselves or just taking steps to welcome people we have questions from we have lots of questions do we have questions in the room anybody who filled out cards who wants to pass them in hold on a minute we've got so many questions online we're not going to get to everything but I'm going to try and do my best to maybe combine a few so let's start with Kathy Harmon Christians question here she says hello thank you for this forum as a parent of a trans person I've consistently chosen them but there are so many that struggle I've tried to dialogue with some priests and bishops but they really haven't been open to hearing the truth of the lived experience of my child in the age of synodality this word again in the age of synodality the bishops who force their view in documents and policies and procedures are essentially using prejudice and power which is abuse of power here's the question how do you think we should hold them accountable while also pursuing dialogue and deep listening over to you man if I could tell you how to hold the bishop accountable I would have solved a lot of the church's problems the one thing I will say and I don't know if it gets to accountability but I think you have to keep knocking at the bishops door until the bishop is willing to open the door and sit down Catholic parents of LGBTQ children I always say are some of the fiercest advocates because they over several decades have refused to give up they just know in Philadelphia there's a parents group they just kept coming back and writing to the bishop can we meet with you, can we meet with you, can we meet with you finally they got a meeting I don't know how productive it was but I don't think we know when we sit down and encounter another person what's going to come of that but I think we have to be sure that we're creating spaces where church leaders can encounter us whether we're LGBTQ or family members or just concerned allies you have to just keep asking for those meetings and making sure whether and this is also true for your pastors pastoral associates university leaders anyone who's involved in sort of the Catholic officialdom I think you have to just keep pushing them to meet with you sometimes it's right to make demands sometimes it should just be sort of a moment of dialogue to learn about each other's stories and where you're coming from The persistent widow is really coming to mind right now who if you recall the unjust judge won't grant a decision in her favor but she keeps coming to him and coming to him and asking him to grant her just decision and I like to imagine she's probably following him around everywhere in his life she's going to work waiting for him at his wagon with his horse later just really everywhere until he decides to grant her a just decision not because it's right but just to get her off of his back which is not to say that that's the best reasoning about forgiving justice or getting justice but it's also a reminder that God will work to create justice no matter what and I think also gaining support from others in your community and I know that's not always possible but when it is the more support you have and the more people who are with you knocking at the door and asking the bishops to talk or asking the priests to talk they're going to have to start listening because there's more and more voices and they can't or they shouldn't ignore everyone okay I got what I think is a quick question here from the floor has any church or diocese come out with a policy that supports LGBTQ plus trans folks? the US, not that I know of in the US I knew it was a short answer why is it the church is concerned how people identify? I mean creation is so central to Catholic tradition and we see it it comes up in so many different parts in the liturgy it comes up just in parish life or if you're in a parochial school it's just always so present and I think primarily there's an idea that God creates in binaries but there's this really good book that I read a few years ago he's a trans theologian he's not a Catholic trans theologian but he's a Christian and his name is Austin Hartke and he talks about the fact that God doesn't really create in binaries because there's so much in between you know in Genesis when we're talking about light and dark there's still dusk and dawn those in between stages or land and sea there are still swamps and marshes there's that gray area and while it may name those extremes, those binaries there's so much in between but we don't recognize that we're not taught to recognize that and it's just our theology has impacted how we think and how we talk about things and how we view gender among other things so I think it's just it's another area that the bishops have also latched on to that they know that they can use to be in control of the laity too because they know a lot of people won't question it I want to congratulate you Michael on answering a question before I even asked it there was a question about about trans friendly theology and you just did something on that so a couple of questions I want to pull together here that relate to synodality right so do you does either of you have hope in the synod on synodality processes in creating spaces where trans voices can be more adequately heard and included in the direction of the future of the church and I'm going to combine that with I think personal accounts of individuals are very powerful and can move hearts and minds are their organizations of trans people who could provide individuals to speak at meetings with accounts of their own life experience in order to promote education and understanding of trans people so I think the questions about how the voices of trans people can be heard whether through the synod on synodality or some other way I'll speak briefly to the synod question because I am a big advocate of the synodal process right now I think this is an amazing opportunity for the church for advocates of reform and renewal for queer and trans folks you know I think there's skepticism because we haven't done this before so each step is sort of a new thing and we're learning and walking together but I take a lot of hope from the fact that you know there were these local sessions and then diocese put together reports based on the local sessions and then the US bishops put together a report and all the national bishops conferences put together reports replicated this process and then the Vatican Synod Office put out a report and it's an interim document it has no authority so to speak but at all of those points LGBTQ people could have been weeded out they could have been you know removed by the diocese or the bishops and I'm sure in some cases that happened but the Vatican document clearly talks about the need for the church to attend to LGBTQ Catholics and issues of gender and sexuality more generally I mean that is a Vatican document coming out and saying amongst the other issues the church has many issues to attend to but we are needing to respond to queer and trans folks families in terms of how we be church today so I don't know what happens but I have a lot of hope because so far in the first year or so we've seen progress made and to answer the part about where you can find trans voices there are quite a few personal stories on the new ways blog bondings that can be shared there's fortunate families and they have a whole section of writings from transgender Catholics specifically and then sister Luisa DeRowan has she has in her work created a group of folks who has gone around and done different events and programs to share their stories and enlighten people on their journeys and to just talk and walk with others and that's been very successful too. Okay I got another couple of questions to put together they're sort of the same I think so one first one says in what way is the shame felt by LGBTQ plus persons amplified by the church's inability to articulate a healthy theology of sexuality for people of all gender identities that's one question to do with how the church is or is not handling the issue and then the other question is a little bit more historical what do you believe is the connection if any with the Protestant Puritan conservative foundations of the country and its impact on our own societal views of this issue so the church and the I guess dominantly Protestant culture well I think the Puritanical culture definitely has shaped a lot of our framework around sexuality and gender in our nation and we still are feeling the effects of that today and certainly within the theology of the Catholic church or at least the theology that leaders are choosing to stick with but and I think that so that does it creates so much shame around being different especially in regard to sexuality or gender and we're just made to feel very uncomfortable being different and we're told that's wrong and it's all of that internalized shame just comes out in so many ways and we're seeing negative effects of it all the time to speak to the question about theology and connections with maybe Protestantism it's a whole other panel to talk about today how Christianity Christian nationalism right wing sort of ideologies, fascism these things are coming out of toxic theology and Catholics are right there in it both Catholics in the pews and some church leaders so I think that's its own question what I will say about that is clearly the right wing has found that trans people are an easy scapegoat to use as a wedge issue politically that most people don't know a trans person or they don't know that they know a trans person really this is confusing to people it challenges sort of fundamental assumptions that we're socialized to believe that there's just men and women and other myths like that so it becomes an easy issue because it's confusing to people it causes fear of the unknown all of these things and for Catholics I think as we move forward as a nation that is why it's so important for our church to get this right because we have a civic responsibility to push back against a lot of the anti-transgender work that is happening sort of in civil society we have a slightly different question here so how does the church account for those who were born both so medically and scientifically the numbers are small and this DD Tostanowski is asking this question she says until recently parents or medical professionals made the decision regarding which gender to select now it is more common to avoid a surgical correction and allow the individual to mature as a both person and make any choice him or herself as adults does the church have anything to say about this some of the policies do acknowledge the reality that there are intersex people and basically intersex folks in sort of the bishops estimation are treated as exceptions that prove the rule rather than something that would challenge us to think maybe the binary isn't real they sort of say well there is this group of people and that's how we know that the male and female is so strong is sort of the two options one thing I would say in terms of our theology of the church that needs to what we need to account for when discussing gender is you know gender identity is more fluid social construct that kind of stuff but assigned sex is also a social construct when you talk about the sex of a child these are just medical norms right this is we have created the idea that this is what makes someone male and this is what makes someone female and when a baby is born it's a reductionist sort of what is the genitalia and that's how you decide or the genitalia is ambiguous and thankfully our medical procedures are moving away from sort of violating surgeries but you know I would guess that if people's hormone levels chromosomes all kinds of things beyond just genitalia internal reproductive organs if people were studied we'd find that I think a lot of people don't quite fit exactly into these male female boxes that there's a lot more of a spectrum and a lot greater diversity in terms of how we are created and our theology Catholic theology just doesn't account for that we official theology that there are theologians getting to that I have a question here for you Michael it's probably a question you get every time something like this happens and Jocelyn Cullen would like to know how do you stay in the Roman Catholic Church when there is so much transphobia especially from the clergy and bishops yeah I do get that's a very common question so I had actually a realization back in the spring of 2021 when the document was released about not blessing same-sex marriages because they're sin and you can't bless sin and you know so many people were reaching out to me and asking how I stay and you know why and more so how do I reconcile because I think that's like the bigger question behind why you stay is how do you reconcile your faith and your identity and I really came to the realization that I don't reconcile because I just I am me I know church teaching I'm informed on church teaching but I'm also equally informed on the science of being transgender the psychology sociology societal norms and the LGBT community and you know all together with guided by my primacy of conscience I'm choosing what is healthy for me because I'm not going to live in a state of despair and feel you know wrong about being I'm not going to subject myself to being in a body that doesn't feel like mine and I'm not going to feel bad for that because I know the consequences and I'm going to embrace myself and be authentically me because authenticity is so important in our relationship with God we have to be able to be fully ourselves and embrace ourselves as God created us to have that loving relationship with God and so I came to the realization that I don't have to reconcile my faith and gender because I'm just me and I'm Catholic and my faith is a huge part of my life and so that's why I stay because I love our deep and rich traditions I admire our theology and you know caring for people caring for the sick for the for the outcast because they're that theology is so rich that encourages us to welcome our scripture is very clear in calling us to do for others and live for others and I love being part of that and I love being part of the body of Christ and I wouldn't change that for anything so that's why I stay okay so I got one more question here okay is that right Kevin and but apologies to those whose questions have not got answered or not directly answered so here's the last question we have here from Caitlin Merritt it's a bit long but there's a question at the end of it given that we know the deep psychological and emotional harm as well as economic harm and physical harm self-caused or otherwise that results from practices of misgendering dead naming shutting down opportunities et cetera is this a matter of cognitive acrobatics on the side of parishes perpetuating these practices with the exceptions you name it seems as though the theology of social justice is more or less forgotten how can trans I think this is the real question how can trans Catholics and allies work to center dignity justice and the protection and raising up of vulnerable populations in these conversations I think the questioner is entirely correct that we have a choice as Catholics because we have multiple parts that we can draw from in the tradition and on the one hand you have sort of sexual and gender ethics and these teachings that tend to be less affirming on the other hand you have that rich social justice tradition and there's sort of a tension between the two in making decisions about how to proceed and this is the case in many things in our lives you have to choose between goods basically you have to choose what's the primary lens I'm going to view the situation in front of me and I think Catholics need to choose the lens of social justice that when you're looking at the question of trans equality when you're deciding what principles am I going to draw from what parts of the faith tradition are most relevant here you've got to lean on that social teaching and I mentioned earlier the New Zealand bishops put out their policy and really that's what they did that's why it's so good is they treated it as a social justice issue and I'll just quote this is from the New Zealand bishops how we as a church treat those members of the LGBTQIA plus community should reflect Catholic social teaching so you can only imagine what US diocesan policies would be like if they took that approach so on the whole LGBTQIA spectrum take social justice but specifically we're talking about these diocesan policies imagine if the first question you ask is how can the church be in right relationship with its trans members and the larger trans community in the world keep amplifying trans gender voices because we're not voiceless we're just silenced and part of that is empowering trans people to speak their truth and creating spaces where they're safe to do so where they're not threatened with either violence or verbal assault so keep amplifying our voices thank you both before we close I'm wondering if by way of closing out your statements here I could pose this to each of you right to the trans youth out there some of whom are sitting in Catholic schools they don't know these policies are happening right they're just trying to be themselves in a place that's supposed to be safe and encourage their development or to Catholic parents of trans youth who are just trying to love their children the way God is encouraging them to love their children what can we say to them as the Catholic church that the church is and I know I already touched on this earlier but the church is more than just the bishops and the priests who are making these statements the church is us and that there are so many people who love and embrace you even if it's not visible at the moment there is a community out there and we are working to build it and I think what's important is also inviting them to build not just the kingdom of God but the kingdom together with other trans people and allies and eventually it will become more Catholics more and more as people encounter one another and learn about our truths so I may do something unpopular given we've been talking about how problematic the us bishops are but I would answer this question by actually quoting a us bishop because I think this is you know the message that the church should be saying to people all kinds of people who feel themselves marginalized by our ecclesial policies and practices Washington DC's Cardinal Wilton Gregory was at a theology on tap event and a trans Catholic basically asked him you know what's the church doing about me you know where do I fit in and Cardinal Gregory said told this person you are at the very heart of the church and the church is your family and there is always room for you and we don't want you to go anywhere so you know the bishops get a bad wrap but I think we should be looking for those church leaders whether they're formal or informal people in our communities who can make elevate that message in very public ways so I don't know that I would say it but I think you know asking your pastor to say something positive about trans people in a homily saying just God loves you could go a long way it's not the end result we need to do much much better but I think as a starting point just saying you are at the heart of the church and we want you here is sort of the baseline we need to get to thank you both thank you for joining us and sharing of yourselves with us here and on Zoom and thank you Dr. Lakeland for inviting this conversation here