 Hi, everyone. Can you hear me? First of all, thanks for joining the event. And I'm just going to, because the people who are joining from online, please unmute yourself. If you are not talking, just mute. And we are going to, it's very sort of like informal conversation in between Jason and me. And through the conversation, we will try to let you know our journey from different perspective and how we started our journey as a student. So, we are going to talk about a few great success of Jason Jones. I don't think I don't need to introduce Jason Jones, because all of you already know him. Jason. Somebody said they don't. Jason is human rights and LGBT defenders from Trinidad and Tobago, and his life is full of success. I'm going to highlight one of the successful incident from his life, which is in his own. The case from Trinidad and Tobago and decriminalized homosexuality in this country in 2018, and which means 100,000 people from Caribbean like get the freedom. So that's, I think Jason here deserve a big claps from all of us for this great achievement. Jason, we sort of know that you started your activism four decades before when you started landed in London as a student and as far as I know you participated that much. I mean, 28 section. So as a student. How did you connect it and do you mind telling about that a little bit more. Okay, thanks. Hello everyone. So starting off as a student I first came to London in 1985. I was born in 1964. I have dual citizenship. My mother is white English and my father is black Trinidadian. So I have dual citizenship so that allowed me to come to London in 1985. I was born to pursue a career in the arts. I had worked in the arts in Trinidad studied as a theater practitioner for three years with some of the most famous Caribbean theatrical people in the world, Derek Walcott. I worked with Helen camps. We won't know but what is a very famous director in the Caribbean. I was born to pursue the dream of going into theater and obviously there was a huge amount of homophobia against anybody who presented effeminately or anywhere outside of the normal masculine identities that Caribbean people have. You know, the Caribbean is kind of microcosm of colonialism. So you, you take the machismo that you see in the global north and then you multiply it by like 1000 times. If you were not playing football, if you were not doing the butch stuff, if you cried at certain movies, if you liked dancing in the ballet like I did, that puts you on the hit list of nearly everybody including my brother. My brother used to beat me up for my perceived homosexuality. I didn't even know what homosexuality was but I was being accused of it. When I was 14, my parents who are both journalists, my mother was a print journalist from London. My father was a television journalist. He was actually the first ever black news reader on television in the entire global south from Miami go back down. He was the first black man. My father trained Trevor McDonald English people who know travel with Donald so Trevor McDonald was trained by my father in Trinidad. I work with these two very powerful communicators who are both journalists and obviously have many queer friends themselves. So when I was 14, they sat me down and explained what was happening to me. You know, it's astonishing to be accused of something and you don't even know what you'll be accused of because you're 14 years old and you're not sexually active and those kinds of conversations don't happen. You're just accused of the crime. So from the age of 14, my parents outed me and from that point on, that kind of gave me a lot of freedom because my parents accepted me as a queer man, queer teenager. And that allowed me to pursue careers that were deemed unworthy for the average man. And the homophobic bullying in Trinidad was hard to describe. One night being at a gay bar and we got locked into the gay bar loops. We have a trainee in the audience who might remember loops with was a very famous underground gay bar in Port of Spain. And we were in there one night and somebody came running in blood streaming down their face. They had just been attacked by a group of guys in the street and those guys were now coming up to the building to beat everybody in the building. So we locked ourselves in and had to be escorted out by the police. But it didn't stop there. It wasn't just being locked in for two hours with the building being stoned and pelted by a mob of homophobic thugs. While being escorted outside by the police, a policeman escorted me to my car and whispered in my ear, I know who your father is. So I then had blackmail on top of the threat of violence. So that's how bad homophobia is in countries that still criminalize LGBT people. Go on to more detail about criminalization and the history of it as we go on. But I think that answers a bit about how I got it. Yeah, definitely you did. And we can see that in 1992, again, you went back to Trinidad and Tobago and you sort of like co-founded the first LGBT organization in like Trinidad and Tobago. Could you mind telling us about like setting a group like in a country where homosexuality is illegal and what sort of strategy did you take and just let us know that would be good. So the timeline is I came in 1985 and I started chasing around theater. It wasn't happening. Nobody knew how to cast a mixed race man. I mean, in those days, mixed race was not a thing. So, you know, I got very high up. I got cast in Miss Saigon. I did a musical on Martin Luther King's Life, which is fantastic, but it never really panned out. And then in 1988, Margaret Thatcher, the then prime minister and head of the Conservative Party passed something called Section 28. That's a very important thing. Those of you taking note. Section 28 was a law passed by the Conservative government in the United Kingdom that criminalized the promotion of homosexuality within any government resource. So no government resources or government resource space could promote the sexuality. So for example, you couldn't have the play bent put on in university. You couldn't have teachers speaking about homosexuality in schools. So if your student came up to you and had questions about homosexuality, you were not allowed to speak to them. And this was right across the board, everything. Libraries couldn't stop books. Everything stopped dead. And at that point, because, you know, I came to try not to study theater, you know, the last thing I'm thinking is to become an activist. But I was studying actually here at University of London, Birkbeck College. I was doing a degree in, my god, this was the first time I forget what it's called. It was called Contemporary Black Arts and Theater at Birkbeck College. I dropped out. So don't worry. But it was a period in London where the UK, where everybody became very galvanized about LGBT rights. I mean, up until that point, the only LGBT rights we had was depriminalization that happened partially in England where it was in 1967. So when she passed this law, when Margaret Thatcher passed this law, LGBT people became very vocal and very active about advocacy for LGBT rights. And there were a lot of anti section 28 markers in central London, which I then became very involved with. And I started one of the first LGBT organizations here at University of London to join those marches. And that's when I became an activist. So, you know, one of the things that I would point out at this point is activism is really driven by desperation. How is that people, most people come to activism from desperation, not inspiration. And that's one of the problems with activism today. All of it is desperate. It doesn't come from an inspired place. You don't see courses in universities like this on how to be an activist. Nobody tells you or you can take your country to court. You know, these are things that we are not taught as civilians. So I joined all these marches became very active on the section 28 marches and then 1992 I went home on a holiday, ended up saved for three years fell back in love with my country and realize things were not progressing. And I've done all this stuff for section 28 to turn it in London. So I thought into that, you know, we should be doing something similar. And I was part of a group that created the first LGBT organization and turn out the land the group in 1992. Unfortunately, the group fell apart in the next two years, because over 50% of all died from HIV AIDS. Trinidad has the distinction, the dubious distinction of having the second highest mortality rate from HIV AIDS in the world, second only to New York City. We lost hundreds and hundreds of gay men. Why? Because Trinidad at that point was very oil rich. So flying up to New York City for a dirty game weekend was very easy for a lot of gay men. And unfortunately the very sad to not see the name they brought back with them was HIV AIDS. So we had the second highest mortality rate per capita in the world. So in 1992 we found it louder predominantly to fight this issue around HIV AIDS. And unfortunately it fell apart when most of all died. That's thanks to Chris. Thank you. So later we found that like in 1996, again, you came back to London and then the real journey started, which has not finished yet. There is long way to go is still. So do you mind telling us about your, especially the winning the case in Trinidad and Tobago, and I'd like to know what sort of challenges you face us and what sort of strategy you have taken to overcome those challenges. Thank you. So in 1992, I spent three years in Trinidad. During that three years I met a partner. And in 1996 my mother passed away in London. So I said to him, well, you know, my mom left the house, we can come to London and spend two years. They had something then called a young person's Commonwealth visa, which allowed Commonwealth citizens under the age of 29 to come to Britain to visit the mother country for two years. You could work for one year and travel around for the next year. So I said, well, we can do the two year young person's Commonwealth visa and then come back home to Trinidad because I had made up my mind I was going to stay in Trinidad in fact. Anyway, we got to London and within three months he said I don't want to go back home. I feel so comfortable here. I feel like our relationship is suspected here. I feel that we can go to a gay club. We can go to the grocery store. I mean we used to be falling around the grocery stores in Trinidad because two gay men shopping was a huge deal in Trinidad. So I said, well listen, you know, there's no way to do it. I don't know how we can do it. So he took up on himself and he found this organization called Stonewall Immigration Group, who were fighting for the rights of the overseas partner to get landed residency based on a de facto relationship of cohabitation. So this was a law that was allowed to straight couples straight unmarried couples who had been together for four years cohabitating two years under under the same roof cohabitating, even though they were not married. The overseas partner could get residency and then five years of residency residency would give them permanent residency and then a British passport. So this organization was saying, well listen, give it to unmarried couples. You know, you give it to straights, give it to us. And we, I then joined the Board of Stonewall Immigration Group and we lobbied. We did a lot of backdoor lobbying with the then Labour Party, who were in opposition. And we said, listen, this next election 1997 this is, if we give you votes, you need to give us this, because this is not a major thing. This is not about changing laws. This is just inserting same sex couples into a already existing legislation. So this is dead easy for you to do. And lo and behold, Labour Party comes to a landslide victory into power and three months later they pass the legislation. So this was my partner and I were one of 40 test cases that were challenging the law at the time. Both our passports were taken by the Home Office. We could not travel and every 28 days, we get a letter saying get that out of our country. And then we would apply again. That went up a year and a half until we won and the Labour Party changed the laws. I'm male partner, one of 40 gay and lesbian couples that challenge that law. And this was the first ever gay legislation passed in this country post decriminalization 30 years previous. So I am the only person on the planet who has changed the laws in two countries for LGBT rights. And that law was also hugely important because these 40 couples had to supply to the Home Office proof of cohabitation under the same roof for four years. So we had a pile this big of like our rent, love letters, letters from family pictures of us on holiday, you know, you have to show that you were together and living on the same roof. And that led to the government realizing wait a minute. They're not just people having sex in bushes and you know they actually form loving together households. And this was the groundwork that led to what was then called civil registry. They said okay we're fine we're now recognizing that that you all have committed loving relationships. I know this sounds insane to you now, but this was the thinking back then they did not think they people could have loving long term relationships. So, because we had these 40 cases as proof of four years of loving cohabitation. And they said okay, we're going to do a test we're going to do a thing called civil registry, and they took six towns around the United Kingdom, Brighton where me and my partner went down and living, Brighton, Manchester, Birmingham. I forgot the other two. And you could go into the town hall and register your partnership and you get a little certificate saying the two of you are in a loving relationship, but nothing wasn't with the people was on, but it was just important for them to see what the take up would be on same sex relationships being registered from that it then went to civil partnership, which was all everything but but they weren't marriage. Once you say the M word you know the parties lose their minds. So we had civil partnership which was equivalent to marriage. And then of course marriage equality follows. So, what I'm trying to paint a picture for you and I'm sure masses doing with his great questions is to show you the progression of the work that this has been 35 years of my word, and it doesn't happen overnight, and it's been incremental. And, for example, when I took on the case to challenge your law and turn it out. You know, I knew that case would take 10 years. I knew it, not because of any reason except this was the times of each court. If you go to the High Court and try that takes two years, then go to the appeal court to try to be good. Well, for me it's taken five years, but we're going to kick off to take off to because of the pandemic. And then the Supreme Council which is our Supreme Court which is here in London, that will take a further three years. So it takes 10 years to decriminalize a country through the court system. So, fast forward I've divorced the husband, and he divorced me. And I then went home again. And I realized that I had a 10 year gap of not going home. I'd written off home, my brother was home for work, my family were home for a week. I just thought, I have no future here whatsoever. I went home on a holiday. My brother said, you know, this is a nephew's don't know who this mysterious uncle is living in Europe. So, you know, so I visited and it was astonishing how nothing had changed for a decade. Absolutely nothing. And people are still dying of AIDS. This is a time. So I thought, okay, you need to do something. So I went, I went back home and I started a new LGBT organization because the one that was there did not believe in the decriminalization litigation. That was for two reasons. One, they were stupid. Two, we have something that is our constitution as a former colony of Britain, called a savings law clause. The savings law clause insulates all laws that predate our independence. So all British colonial era laws are saved. You cannot challenge them in a court of law. Death penalty, bugry hole, driving bear back, running goats to the town. You're the most insane things you cannot challenge in a court of law. So this is the largest LGBT organization said, well, we can litigate, you know, forget it. They just close their minds off. I said there has to be a way. So I said to lawyers here in London, because you know, this is the great thing about having a foot in both places. And you know, one of the powerful things about being mixed race and by national is the fact that I have a foot in both places. And I don't have a close mind. You know, there's all these very famous statements about when somebody lives in a bird that lives in a cage, you know, thinks flying is crazy. You know, so you have to understand that activists in these countries, they have no vision of what freedom is. And the freedom you enjoy in Europe, but somebody living in a country that has criminalization, you cannot imagine how close off their minds is to this kind of freedom. You know, so I spoke to a lot of lawyers and I said, no, there's no way you can do it. I spoke to a constitutional lawyer in Trinidad, not just and I teach constitutional lawyer. So I found this gay lawyer, young gay man. He wasn't even faster. He was doing, he was still doing his studies. And I said to him, listen, there has to be a way. I said, okay, fine, let's sit down and go through this. And he found a way he found a loophole and a loophole was this. In 1962, we became independent from Britain and that entire constitution and the British buggery law is now saved cannot be touched its ring fence. In 1976, we became a republic. The original constitution is now transferred into republican status, but they also carried over the savings law clause. In 1986, they went into the buggery law and they extended the jail time by 10 years. It was five years under the bridge. My parliamentarians, my black and Indian parliamentarians extended the jail time by 10 years. And then in 2000, went into the buggery act again, extended it another 10 years and then created the Equal Opportunity Act 2000 and in that act, they explicitly denied protections for any discrimination based on your sexual orientation or gender identity. So gee, they broke that into an equal opportunity act. My lawyer said, well, listen, if you went into the act twice, it's spending jail time creating new laws. Oh, and I forgot one other thing. In 1986, they also created section 16, the serious and decency act which criminalize lesbians, because they thought it wasn't good enough to criminalize a homosexual man. Let's go up to the lesbians as well. So they created serious indecency that had a five year jail time. So my lawyer said, listen, if they went into it, it's no longer saved. We must challenge this. And that's how I challenged it. And in 2018, a judge agreed and I want equalization for both gay men and lesbians. Well done. And this is interesting that like, still, all the like, we have got like 69 countries around the world where are like, still homosexual is legal, and half of these countries are from Africa and Commonwealth countries, and this law was implemented by like pro it originated from bugger react and implemented by the British Emperor, when they're like the world. So, from me, I would like to know your point of view, like, there is a Commonwealth organization LGBT organization who is helping all those countries and what strategy should take all those Commonwealth and organization at the same time. Do you think the British government have really good part to play to abolish the, especially the law from Commonwealth countries. I think it's important to break that down into three parts. Number one, the history of colonialism. Yeah, the French students here right so what you need to understand is a difference between British colonialism and French colonialism. The history of decriminalization the French actually never had a law that criminalize homosexuality directly. They had kind of a weird kind of, you know, if you're kind of sexually deviant, but it wasn't very specific. So, when the French colonized, they didn't have a law to carry over. And also the French colonization was very different from British colonization. British colonization was about molding the colonies into a form of Britain. There are places like Barberus being called in England, you know, they, they try to force their values and their systems and their culture on to their colonized people. Whereas French colonization was very different. French would go into a country and embrace what was happening there. And when you had, for example, the secular in the Caribbean, which was the transfer of power between colonizers so Spain was now in decline, and it sold off to Britain, a lot of its former colonies, for example trying to bagel. I think this circular happened at 17, don't connect me, but anyway, look out for the secular. At that point, you also have the French Revolution, which was also a big turning point on how sexuality was dealt with in the former colonies. So you have a lot of very wealthy French people from colonies in the Caribbean, escaping the guillotine in France, coming out to their plantations, and of course being born as hell. And then they started to get involved with black culture of their slaves because the slaves had a very vibrant culture and we had a period between our plantation cycle between what is now Christmas and what is now left. That period was where nothing was happening. You were cycling over, so the line was being turned, being prepared for a new crop to be planted. And in that little gap was where carnival exploded in these colonies, New Orleans down through the Caribbean. And the French loved that whole thing because, you know, they're like bold rich people, and they're looking at what's going on in the slave camp, but they're going, you know, hey, bring them up to the big house little avocado. So French was very important in exploding that slave culture and our carnival culture. And that meshing also happened sexually. You hear of a class of people in Trinidad called French Creoles, and these are people who have French and black blood. They don't define themselves as black. Nobody does in the Caribbean anymore, except the black people. But it created another underclass of people in the Caribbean. And that also was what created this kind of weird dichotomy of sexual freedom within French colonization, where British colonization was absolutely opposite. You would never have British Pantocracy mixing with slavery at all. I mean, they may go down there secretly, but there was no kind of proper cultural meshing. The difference of colonizing is very key to looking at how these laws still permeate in the countries that we see. So out of the 69 countries that criminalized 33 of former colonies of Britain. And the majority of them are African and Caribbean. And the majority of those countries are Christian. So they either have Roman Catholic or Anglican majorities. So that was also another big part of it. You know, the French didn't bring a lot of religion with them. You know, religion for the French is a very kind of, keep that to yourself. Whereas the British are just like Kumbaya, everybody gets a circle and you're the same with us. So that all built this, what you see today where French former colonies don't have these laws, but British colonies do. And then of course the other countries that criminalize are majority Muslim countries. So it's all based on those two religions Christianity and Muslim faiths are the main conflicts of homophobia. And any other points was. Yes, I just wanted to know your point of view. I mean sort of like what sort of strategy the Commonwealth LGBT organization should take, or like, do you have any advice for them. I think the strategy is shit. And I think we have been failing as a queer community across the globe for the last 20 years. I think that LGBT activism has been dominated by white, gay and lesbian, cisgender, middle class tertiary educated people. And they come into advocacy, blinkers, they come into it with a heteronormative vision of what queer identity should look like. So let's fight for marriage equality. Why? Why is that your focus when there are 69 countries that still criminalize us? But the white people are here, the white queers here all fighting for marriage equality. They're all fighting to have kids, they're all fighting to replicate patriarchy and misogyny. So I think it's a little shit in my opinion. We don't have queer people of color at the bargaining tables. You know, the first queerness of color to lead an LGBT organization in Britain only happened three years ago. That was Lady Phil, who is also the founder of UK Black Pride. Three years ago, first person of color to lead an LGBT organization. The major international LGBT organization was our COC, and it's run by another black lesbian. She came into position, I think also around the same time, three years ago. COC in Netherlands is the oldest LGBT organization in history. I think they're about 80 years old or something. It's ridiculous. But, you know, I think it's terrible that even today, at board level, there are so few trans people, trans people of color, nonexistent. Queer people of color, queer people from the diaspora. We don't get a look at, there was a conference last year, the Safe to Be Me conference being hosted by the Conservative Party. And a bunch of white people had meetings with a bunch of white queer people, had meetings with the LGBT leads for the Conservative Party. Lord, but it's the same. Anyway, you can look them up. He's the LGBT envoy for the Conservative Party right now, the Conservative government right now. And they said, oh, we're going to drop out of the conference because you don't support the trans ban on LGBT people, you've left out trans. I said, yeah, that's one issue, and I support it. But there's loads of other things going on around the world. And when did you consult us? There was no consultation. And then I challenged one white lesbian about it, who said, oh, no, we're supporting our trans siblings. I said, but they're not the only siblings. There's millions of us who are criminalized in the global south. She said, oh, well, you know, we have to stick together. I said, yes, stick together. But you know, when you're having back no meetings and we're not invited, that's sticking together. And that's what's going on. And if you look at where we have come from the Stonewall riots of 1969 to today, the main beneficiary of LGBT rights has been white queer people. And I know people don't like me saying this, but I don't really give a shit. Completely completely. I do agree. And I know that you're like where this frustration coming from, because like people who are in the power, they're like sort of taking the decision for all those Commonwealth countries, where never they visited. How do you like take decision for other people where you don't know anything about their culture, you don't know their suffering. So I think you are right. We should like empower those grassroots LGBTQ activists and take them on board and take the decision future decision. However, like, we name this conversation today is unfinished business, the voice of regulations. So why do you think this is unfinished boys. Why do we need to be finished what need to we need to do more. Well, I mean, I don't think I'm the only person speaking out like this. I mean obviously I'm quite known because of what I achieved in China. Can I just say that I did my case completely independently, all of the white land organizations in Britain refuse to support my case. And they still refuse to support my case now, even though my case is ongoing. I wanted to have caught in 2018 that victory has been appealed by the Attorney General to be able and will be heard at the appeal court next year to be able and then whoever loses our appeal will appeal to the Privy Council here which is our Supreme Court. That judgment will be the first time that the Privy Council has ever heard an LGBT decriminalization case in its history, and it will have legal effect on 11 countries. So my judgment has the ability to decriminalize 11 countries across two continents. Not one LGBT organization Britain supports me. Not one. I have to raise every penny myself even though I my lawyers work pro bono. So far, this case has cost over a million pounds. All of it has been pro bono work by me and my lawyers and all the money that I have to pay my photocopying bill alone for court was 4,000 pounds. I have to pay my lawyers, my British team, British and Canadian lawyers flying out my British team at a period in court every time I pay in court it costs me 15,000 pounds. I raise all of that money on my own. I'm not a single LGBT organization has support to me anywhere on this planet. My question is that why do you think this LGBT organization they're working for the community development they're trying to help why my question. I have no vision mass because they have no vision. This is this is what I said earlier, people come to this with come come to advocacy from desperation, not inspiration. If you are inspired, you can visualize something you can dream something. You know, if you're desperate, you're on the back foot, because you're always just responding to a stimulus you'll never creating stimulus yourself. And this is where advocacy is going so wrong. We don't have vision as queer people of what we want to see as our future. So for example, when magic quality came up, I said, you know, great, but let's not just talk about marrying a significant other because for me as a queer man, I would love to give that power to a partner who is Catholic. Because that relationship I know is going to last my life. My best friend, I know, you know, as we're going to be best friends in life. So why didn't they say instead of Oh, it's all romantic and lovey-dovey and let's go to the get married in the castle in the country. Why don't we say, as queer people, yes, romance is great, but we have other relationships, we have other families that we create and let's let's get that to the straight people. How many straight women would like to say, you know what, I wish I could marry a girlfriend because men are dogs and she's going to be there for me. And if I get incapacitated and I need medical help or I need to answer, I know I can trust her. That's that's how you visualize it. That's how you dream beyond the patriarchy and misogyny and what is already existing. And that's what queer people should bring to the table. We should bring these new ideas. But we're not. And it's because our leadership all went to Oxford and Cambridge and wherever else and they just have been buying into a child-intested route by heterosexuals. Whereas those of us who are in the fringes of society who don't have access to those kinds of things, who don't have access to tertiary education, who don't have access to middle class lifestyles, who are people of color, who are trans, we don't have access to that normality at all. That's not on our horizon at all. We don't have that in our in our world. So what we have to do is number one, broaden our bores, make sure that people at the table designing these visions represent our community properly. I once went to, I once went to an event in 2017. It was a coming together of all the LGBT organizations in Britain, and we're going to come together and create a fight for global LGBT rights. So I went to that big splashy launch, which was at a very dodgy accountancy firm, PWC, I think it was, somewhere in the city. And it was, you know, big gold kilter ballroom thingy. So at this thing, guess how many people of color were in a room of 300 people? Seven and a half. One of the first jobs I had when I came to Britain 1985 was I used to count brown and black faces in attending events funded by the local council. That was my job. I used to sit there with the ball and count black and brown faces. And I still do it now. And I want you to do it too. When you go to an event, count how many trans people are there, count how many great people color there, you know, and you will start to see what is wrong. Diversity and inclusion, where are these people at these events? Why don't they feel comfortable to come to them? So, yes, I think that that's Thank you, Jason. And for the audiences, we are going to take the question after a while. And definitely you will get chance to ask questions before that I'd like to sort of like introduce myself, basically Dan Glass, our favorite Dan Glass, you're supposed to chair the event. And finally, like he requested me to chairing the event. So, I'm another small speaker of the event, I'm Masarul Islam, and I am one of the pioneer LGBTQ activist. And at the moment, I'm doing my masters from King's College London and global culture at the same time I'm working in a care sector, because being an asylum applicant, I don't have right to work. In any other part, only I can work for the care sector. And on top of that, I'm like, trust you and rainbow family and a patron for the human rights organization called report out. Today, I want to share my experience how we did like sort of started LGBTQ activism back in Bangladesh. And it's not that far Bangladesh. Once it was a part of Pakistan. Before that it was like a part of Indian subcontinent. Again, in Bangladesh, there is this law 377 panel put, which is originated from the British colonial law, and it criminalize homosexual. The argument is like an imprisonment. So, back in 2002, when we sort of like a few friends, I would say 12 of us, there was no platform for the Bangladesh LGBT community in our country and people used to sort of commit suicide. They didn't have any platform where they can go and talk. So we sort of created a small platform online platform Yahoo group with 12 people and when I left Bangladesh in 2016, the group member was like 10,000. So that's how we became bigger in like 10 years time. And what we used to do it's sort of we used to organize small get together for the community people is small like picnic. This is how we started just to build a platform. At that point, we even even didn't know properly how we are going to get involved with the activism and everything. Later on we are connected with the international organization like ILGA, then few embassy like US Embassy and Danish Embassy, they sort of like help us do some local project and survey in Bangladesh. That's how we are like growing. And in 2016, like it was one of my LGBT activist friend and another activist was brutally murdered. It's just because they published a magazine in Bangladesh and that was the first LGBT magazine which was published and that news was came to all the media and everything. The murder took place on 2016 25th of April and we few of our friend were in the rest of our life. So US Embassy, my friend who was murdered, he used to work for the US Embassy. So he was sort of like immediately embassy, create a shelter for the people whose life or interest. Being an LGBT activist, I had, I had to leave my country in 24 hour notice. Even I came to put in a bulletproof car and I had only five minutes to meet my parents. And since I left the country, I couldn't go back. I couldn't meet my parents, nothing. And initially I was reallocated in Sri Lanka. I did like leave Sri Lanka and hiding myself in different hotel for seven months. And then with the help of my previous organization, I moved to London in 2016 November. And after moving to London, I didn't gave up. I felt like my friend sacrificed their life and they should get the justice. So 2017 it was at that point I didn't know anyone that much. I had few family adjacent mentioned that like he was family was homophobically abused him. My brothers was not abused, but was not welcoming me. At some point he sort of made, give me a choice, either Libby's house, or just you have to leave your activism if you want to live with them. So I chose my activism, I left them. So that's the journey started in London. And as I told like in early 2017 I didn't know anyone. So, only me and one of my friend made a protest or in front of like traffic or a square making a placard asking justice for my friend of who are brutally murdered. Because they deserve justice. So later on, I was introduced to Dan Glass and Peter Tatel, then I sort of tell Peter, I definitely want to make a protest in front of the Bangladesh High Commission and send these masses to the Bangladesh government that like we want justice for our friend. In 2018, from 2018, every year I was staging a protest in front of Bangladesh High Commission asking justice for my friend and Jason or few times there in the event Peter Tatel and everyone. So that's sort of how I started my activism in United Kingdom, then I started doing volunteer work with Gay Liberation Front, then ACT UP London, all this organization. And 2021, I sort of lost my job. I have been made redundant and I was living here in the work permit. So I couldn't go back to my country so I had to claim asylum. And when I claim asylum. Then I realized we are being treated not as human being like asylum seeker special categories people. I have worked in three different countries as a business development manager, and I have that skill and I can contribute to the economy through my skill but right now I'm not entitled to work apart from the care sector job. That's how the law treat the asylum seeker people here. And I realized that when I claimed asylum. I realized there is no platform, people like me who are coming from Bangladesh or South Asian region that struggle to find the information and then I thought, why don't I start an online group. In last year I started online group called the rainbow tree. And it has got two parts one part work for Bangladesh and the part work for the UK based British Bangladesh community and you own believe that how who moved with the British Bangladesh community is right now. So we, this is an unfinished business where we need to work and currently the rainbow tree is helping. Almost like six to seven people who claim asylum who are a student as well. And they moved to this country. Now they can go back to it's because one of them were being raped and he couldn't like talk about it to anyone none of you, his friends or family members. He didn't even go to the police in Bangladesh, because like if he goes he would be arrested instead of like giving him any help. I myself was getting great threat. After being like, followed me and trying to blackmail me, I had to go to the police station and made a general diary where I couldn't mention that being homosexual that's why I'm getting on this thread. So, that's me and my journey about my activism plus being ended up in London. From my experience, but I have learned that it's very important to create a good network because network is power. At the same time, if you want to work for the LGBT community, like just create awareness, first of all, like within your circle, then within your family, then within your society then within your country. If you can't really accepted by your own family members, how do you expect the society will accept you. So that's the suggestion and advice from me. And we have half an hour time where we are going to take the question. So, it's now for you turn to ask the question to us, we're going to answer the question. Yes. Can we take focus from the audience and then online. Yeah. Okay, so any question from the audience. Yeah, so then we can hear you and do you mind. Yes, if you can speak louder. I just have a question. How is it possible to decrement decrement, decrement lies multiple countries at the same time. So, I don't have the word decrement, decrement lies multiple countries at the same time with the same. Great question. So the Privy Council is the supreme court for multiple former colonies of Britain. So my laws are all the same law in Bangladesh is a British colonial bugger along. So these are all pretty much the same laws. Bangladesh doesn't come under the Privy Council because they're now a Muslim sharia state. So they don't have the Privy Council, but any country that has the Privy Council as a supreme court. If my case wins. Then that country, if they have a decriminalization case that case automatically wins. So my case will have effect on 11 countries. All of the English speaking Caribbean and Mauritius, strangely enough, Mauritius has filed a decriminalization case and they will fall under my judgment of the Privy Council. Yeah, so just to add to that, I'm from Jamaica. Okay. So Jamaica has the judicial committee of the Supreme Court of its apex court. Yes. All constitutional framework is deliberately quite different. And so I would say that it isn't automatic that I'm success in your case. Yeah, and would mean success in Jamaica. I mean, Jamaica is very strange in that they went into their constitution and they have double rate sense, the boundary law, but why, why wouldn't have effect is a paracon. So, you know, if you have carried on as a whole decriminalization decriminalizing that is the way that you can get Jamaica to fall under. Paracom is like our EU. It's a, it's a regional organization that pulls all of the English speaking Caribbean together. Yes. What is your view of the future as like in the diversity of public people and these actions and in the LGBT organizations as well. What is your view of the future of this problem? I think it was a bit, can I take in my one? Yes. Very similar. Okay. How do you see like exact country that don't have private counsel, they don't have, how those countries are going to change their law, say, gun, the gun or how, how do you see that happening? Yes. Like how's the future? Yes. How do you see because this is what the, the idea of the series was precisely to try to understand. Yes. Yes. I mean, this is exactly why I'm saying LGBT advocacy right now is, is crap, because it's so piecemeal that it looks at Commonwealth. Let's look at that. I mean, I've been in talks with them about, you know, decriminalization, what are the best routes. So when we do our work in these little silos, you know, over this is North America, or this is Northern Europe, or this is Commonwealth. Yeah, there is no global work happening. Right. People don't talk to each other. It's very territorial. And it's mainly because egos, and there's very small parts of funding. So everybody's fighting for the same money. So organizations don't work together. So you will have organizations here in Britain who are doing the exact same work paying to people who are doing the exact same job. You know, and nobody talks to each other because it's so territorial. How do we get over that? I don't know. But right now it's, it's actually, you know, I feel for Bangladesh, which is why I work so closely with Mars and the asylum seekers from Bangladesh. I do a lot of asylum cases. I'm an independent expert on asylum as some, some people in the audience know. Because nobody is doing this work. Nobody is saying to the home office, oh wait a minute, I know mass, you know, we hang out in London. I know he's probably queer. I know he was chased by a murderous group who had just murdered two gay, two gay friends of his in Bangladesh. I know him. I can vouch for him. They don't have those conversations. So it's, it's very disjointed. And I don't know how to break through that. You know, when you look at a case like mine, you know, it's just like, I had a lesbian recently tell me Jason, people don't work with you, but they don't work with me now anyway. I'm going to lose it. And it's, it's very difficult in the field to get things done. Very difficult. I mean both my son and I have had to start organizations, because the big organization so come all the money. 2018 at the Commonwealth has a government meeting which was here in London. Then Prime Minister Theresa May made a big speech we apologize for the laws we spread around world before we close and we're giving 5.6 million pounds towards decriminalization to for British organizations. I don't know where the money has gone. Yeah. I don't know where that money has gone. They had a conference on decriminalization in Barbados. Nice. I was an invite a person who decriminalized an entire country on the road. I was not invited. And nobody knows where the 5.6 million is one. It's a nightmare. And you know, I'm really glad to be talking to young people like yourselves because I think it's kind of like that COVID thing. We need that break from that old guard who had been dominating queer activism. And it's mainly white people. It's mainly all white people. It's mainly conservative white people. We had the head of Stonewall, former head of Stonewall who said it was more difficult for her coming out as a woman Catholic and coming out as a lesson. And, you know, again, you know, Stonewall does some great things, but oh my God, when they screw up, do they screw up? They had a raffle, right, to raise funds for their organization. And one of the prizes was a holiday to San Lucia, which is a country that criminalizes you know, to meet your neighbor. They used to host their ball. The Stonewall ball they used to have was at the Dorchester, owned by whom? The Catholics. So, you know, when you have a queer organization that put in their foot in it that much, and not even willing to learn, you know, when the rest of us say, um, you know, this is wrong, San Lucia is a country that criminalizes, you shouldn't be sending queer people there. They just say, you know, we're raising money. It's about an important way. Not even acceptance. Okay, answer, we got this wrong. Because there's so many egos at play here. So many egos. I'll start with one that leads quite nicely on from yours in regard to the World Cup. And I'm just asking because it's one of the biggest things that have come out of it. And I guess the question is that, because you could say, well, yes, you know, if we're talking about LGBTQ plus rights. That's an issue, but it's also not the only issue. There will be loads of World Cups around the world where different groups of people are going to be oppressed or oppressed. So I guess what's your opinion on it and how would you sort of moving forward if look at how that would change towards the future. And I just want to check mass of people online hearing questions. Everybody's okay hearing. Are you hearing? Yes. Matthew on mute. I want that on a T shirt. Thank you. Do you question some of your audience? Yes. Okay. And people online, please do, do fire in your questions online. I think there's a, is this do such a normal. Can read them. We have got one question. Okay. I think there is nuance to everything. I think there is a one route to equality and freedom. You know, I was told people, you know, I, what I am doing is litigation through the courts. It's very costly. It's very costly. Emotionally, I mean, I've lost practically all of my friends, particularly all of my family. I mean, that's what gave me the freedom to do this, because I would never have done this and put my family in danger. I mean, both me and myself fatwas on my head. Trinidad has the highest number of ISIS recruits in the Western Hemisphere, Trinidad and Tobago, my country. So I've heard that there's a fat one on my head. I also heard the Roman Catholics won my head on a spike as well. But, you know, this is dangerous work. So I don't, I don't say to everybody, yeah, go and do that, go and do that. You know, it's very dangerous way for some of us, you know, as his friends were brutally murdered. Devacator in Uganda, hacked to death in his home in time to 12. So then nuances and there's different routes and we must find different routes. And when somebody does something that may not be to your liking, you know, let them get on with it. Keep your head down and get on with what what you're doing. You know, and also I think we don't imbue the small things with enough power. I'm very much about peer-to-peer work. So when you come to an event like this and you've met me and Madis and you know that, listen, you know, there's these two queer men who are doing this stuff in these far away lands. What you need to come out of this room and do is when you hear your friends or your family member being homophobic, pull them up and say, no, no, no, no, not on my watch. We don't speak about queer people like that. Right. That is important work. It's equally as important as my litigation. That's where change really happens. True transformation happens face to face. When you leave this room, if you can take this message out to just one person in your classroom, you know, make those people aware that these are lives that stay but serious business happening out in the world. Gay men being thrown off buildings in Syria. That's happening today. Lesbians being murdered in Russia. Gay men being tortured and murdered in church here. That's all happening today. So do the little things as equally powerful. Standing up to your racist grandparents, you know, yeah, that's important. The Qatar thing, I mean the guy that did the teacher thing yesterday, amazing. For me, that was the Rosa Parks of football. I thought it was utterly brilliant. And the fact that he's not getting death threats shows you the power of something that small. If you read Twitter today, people are calling for him to be beheaded. So yeah, that T should wait. That's actually staying different. Right. And, you know, I may disagree a lot with Peter Tatl, but we have to be very clear about the work that's happening in countries that we have to be led by people from or within those countries. Yes, we have got a question from shake she does in the Oscar. So basically he wanted to know, like, do you think we the homophobic faith is strictly followed by the people in the Muslim countries. Decriminalization can be expected in recent future. Do you want to, like, take the question then I will add. I mean, I've spoken to lawyers. I'm very lucky I have access to a lot of major law firms in the city of London. I mean, these are billion dollar law firms. My law firm, Paul Hastings, who have been utterly brilliant and was the first law firm to come on board. They've spent over 450,000 pounds on my case pro bono work on my case. And Paul Hastings is a huge billion dollar law firm global billion dollar law firm. And this was the first time that they'd ever gotten into doing pro bono human rights work around LGBT. So that's where the word needs to start on on countries that have sharia law because of course sharia law is a very different kettle of fish and to get in there to get in there with the lawyers, you have to get in with the lawyers and how you do that is those countries are not isolated. All right, with the exception of the very wealthy Middle East countries and North Korea countries are not isolated. They do business with the city of London they do business in Paris, billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of business. We need those businesses to say, oh, you want to do business with us. Otherwise, it's going to be very tough doing business with us. That's the leverage. You've got to use money, money speaks in this work. So, political leverage. Right. I mean, I saw a statement from, which is soon after they say, Oh, the honeymoon is over with China. Was there a honeymoon with China. Massacre. When was the honeymoon with China. Thank you very much. So how human rights, how you leverage human rights through the dollar and through political persuasion is key. And we're not doing enough of that. It's because our parliamentarians are lazy. And a lot of them beyond lazy them homophobic and racist themselves. So, what are we going to do. We have a new generation coming up, which I'm so hopeful for because I meet people like you guys, you folks who are really keen to build a different world. And thank heavens. I see this is the only thing that keeps me going, because oh God, I've written them off. You know, people, people 40 and over. My God, what a waste of time are you. What are you doing to this planet. I mean, the intersectionality of climate change and queer liberation. I speak this in rooms and they look at me. I don't you realize that the first communities that are going to be hit by climate change are the minorities. The trans woman who is sex worker. She's going to be hit first. And she has no safety net in China to be over 90% of trans women are sex workers and over 50% of them are HIV positive. So in the height of the pandemic I'm actually 20,000 pounds to be able to feed them and get them their medication because they were locked down so they couldn't go to the clinics and collect medication. Where were the organizations doing this work. Why was it left to me. I'm trying to keep this plate spinning. So there's so much it needs to happen. But, you know, we all just need to do a little bit. Exactly. And I just wanted to highlight one of your point that like, you mentioned that you really love this new generation. And if I go back to the question was asking whether is it like going to be decriminalized homosexual in recent future, the country like Bangladesh perspective, I can answer. No, it's not going to take place overnight. Politics needs to take. Like from my perspective going to take maybe next 3040 years because it's not only just religion, it's also politics involved here. And while in the power, they are like homophobic people, those generation needs to get out of from the power and the new generation, not even our generation generation jet should come to the power, they will be more liberal, and then the changes will take places. I disagree, but I think it's going to happen faster. I think what you're forgetting, because you're 40 and over is that are new people have access. Younger people have access. You'll have access instant access to information that our generation could not have imagined. You'll live online, you'll live digitally, and that world is not the world that you and I and our parents and our grandparents know about and our politicians. So I think we are going to see things move a lot faster. I think with globalization countries like Bangladesh, you know, simple thing like the clothes you're wearing Bangladesh is one of the largest producers of clothes. I think probably how you tonight are wearing something that was made in Bangladesh. That's where you hit them. That's where you hit them, but you don't also fight just the LGBT and this comes to your point about Qatar. You don't fight for just LGBT, you must fight for all human rights. So you must fight for freedom for women in Bangladesh. You must fight for workers rights in Bangladesh. You must fight for the proper payment of the workers in Bangladesh and then LGBT alongside of it. That's where intersectionality is important and where the work needs to happen. So for example, with my work in Chiridat, what came out of my case after I won was a load of straight people saying, you could take your country to court. I didn't know. So then I got all these straight people coming to me to say, Oh, do you know how I can decriminalize marijuana? So you have to not live advocacy in a cyber. Yes, my advocacy is very centrally LGBT, but I'm also very vocal about race and very vocal about women's rights and very vocal about human rights as a general and climate change is also a big thing on my brain. But you have to work with all of these things at the same time and be cognizant of how they all interact with each other. Yes, I do agree with you. But here is one of the problem lack of the leadership and we don't have that resources to create this global pressure on the government. If we had that when the government say that my economy is going to break down, they will definitely take the but still we long way to go. I'm afraid that we might take one more question from the audiences then. Okay, we have any questions. Okay. This one. There is no question online. I don't see any more questions online. So audiences in person. Okay. We'll take the two more question and answer should be within four minutes. I was just wondering you spoke of an activism out of desperation and I'm wondering, it sort of sounds like I'm hearing this activism of inspiration that maybe is happening and Am I correct in understanding that you feel the new generation maybe has a possibility to lead an activism by inspiration rather than desperation? Great question. I think the gender identity issue that's happening now is something that's very inspired. And it wasn't kind of coming out of who I'm desperately escaping something. It was young people saying, oh wait, non binary, I don't choose to buy into that binary identity. And I think that's very inspired. You know, so I'm seeing it happening for sure. I mean, that's inspiring. I mean, that's inspiring. And she wasn't desperate, which white girl in Sweden. She's just like, wait, I care about the planet. That's inspired. Malala, where I had the honor of meeting this July in Birmingham at the opening of the Commonwealth Games, which he's doing right now is inspired. So yeah, young people definitely much more inspiration than desperation. And again, when I talk about the lack of diversity and inclusion at the board tables and the decision making process, young people are there either. So it's not just, you know, people of color will be ignored and chance people, young people are nowhere on those tables. Like, you know, what are you going to do when you shuffle off? You know, who's going to take your space. So that's also really important as well. So we're going to take the last question now. So please go ahead. Yeah, so the question is what you actually want. All right, okay. I've had the privilege of seeing advocacy groups in various jurisdictions in the Anglophone Caribbean doing critical work for their communities. Work which is perhaps unseen elsewhere. Do you, can you think of or can you point to work being done by groups in Bangladesh, which we wouldn't necessarily be able to see. Do you mind repeating the question or last part what, sorry, I didn't catch it. So I'm asking if there is work that you know, or that you're perhaps involved in from a distance in Bangladesh value of the work for queer communities that we may not have had the opportunity to see which you could perhaps tell. Well, so in terms of like Bangladesh perspective, what queer community it's like I would, I'd like to give you a like overview of the current situation of Bangladesh that might help you. So we sort of from 2002 till 2016, we developed this queer community, and we are the pioneer LGBT activist in Bangladesh, we are like being busy role, and we are like being vocal we are trying to write article in different a newspaper, all this. When the murder took place, everything the entire generation of the fast queer community have to leave the country. And we have to like we again went back to the 20 years before where we are being and it's more worse than that situation currently, because no one. The murder took place in 2016, but the fear is still there. So it would be completely different scenario right now what we are trying to do, we are trying to work in sort of like underground building the community, making the leadership who can lead the countries next generation. To, and also trying to make it international between Bangladesh LGBT community and within. No, no, no, no, I think it's his connection. Because sometimes it happens when let me see that if not much I can do for a moment. Let me write to him, maybe if I write to him. That's going to hear us. Yeah, it's a shame because everything was fine. Yeah, he was stopped being. He's probably had to go. Right, yeah. I know the thought of a 630 if you have any other questions. That's what I wanted to say that yes we you can think around a little bit is just that we had a time in 1930, it was some confusion there. But I think, I think we lost mass by the look of it didn't we unfortunately, but he was, yeah it was making some final comment, because I think he also had to go maybe a 630. And so, yeah, so you are. Yeah, we can just say goodbye to the online audience. Shall we. There is there is hold on hold on. So yeah, let's say man. Hi. Are you back good good excellent. So you can make some final comments, as you will say as you were doing. Can you hear us. Yes, sorry, you're the last minute your connection went. And now I mean, that's the thing with this. Technology. Right. Privacy. I'm back. I'm sorry I was disconnected. Yeah, I did answer the question. If not, you can just simply write an email to me. I got the email address from you can collect it from Angelica I'll get back to you and we just need to say right goodbye and Angelica would you give a note of thanks and we especially from me and Jason are really grateful having this platform to the Swartz University and letting our boys to be heard. Yes, absolutely. No, no, thank you. I mean, I just want to, yeah, I can say a few words just to say that how grateful we are to be able to have this conversation with people like you, because even today to be fair, my man has been open even more in the sense of like understanding what Jason was talking about was older. You know, yeah, it's actually diverse inclusion, you know, they're like big words, but people don't actually practice it in a daily life. And this is something that for me is really like very important because exactly we're talking about human rights, everybody wants everybody to be included and be part of but unfortunately, out there in the real world is with these power structures. As you said, you know, whether it's money, and kind of said as well to kind of hear it from you because exactly you will feel people that had already to struggle. You know, would be people that would be more open minded, but sometimes actually there's no the history and as you said that sometimes also is generational because of the history that you know sort of older generation had to bear and then they can't, you know, be free from all those. So it's been inspiring and this is just the, this is the third event in the series. Yeah, so it's the start there only. And we are really open with that glass or purchase not yet tonight because if you see that isn't a such an inspirational person actually, as well as you all of this. And so the idea would be to just keep talking keep having this conversation because we feel in so much especially we feel that you know we're talking about Asia Middle East regions that I'm very geography from us. And, but we really, you know, we should do more we should have because we are people that are connected for our diasporas from students our academics there is so much more that we could actually do to influence. And these are just a small part, very small part in an event but as Jason said, even to me it was a very inspirational because it's true, sometimes to speak into one person. Well, you know, it can actually make a difference. So I hope, like now we all want to go out there in the real world and just, you know, be encountered by so many different situations that we have to stand up for. We really have to say, you know, what is right. And if you are witnessing if you're part you can be complacent you can be complacent, you have to say you have to fight, you know, and yeah sometimes as Jason said it can be scary. It can be daunting. But you know the new generation as we keep saying is like, you know, we need to push the boundaries basic and that is the sort of my final comment. So if a mass and Jason you want to say something, a couple of final, final comments. Before we say bye to the mass unfortunately. Mass is gone. I think it's a good idea. Well, I end on some exciting good news. I think it's a good thing that Singapore just equalized to me. A couple of hours ago. I think it's a good thing that Singapore was also similar to Southeast Asia 377 a. So exactly the same British colonial era by great law. Now the interesting thing about this case which I would highlight to you is group of activists took the country to court similar to me, but they had a lot more money and a lot more support a lot more more more and they lost. They lost at every level of court in Singapore, including at the Supreme Court. But they decriminalize today and think it's about about six months after they lost to the Supreme Court. Again, that loss of the Supreme Court showed Singapore very badly in the international community. Their business partners thought, really? You're criminalizing your LGBT people and using it with a law that dates back hundreds of years. That was British. The premiere of Singapore realizing that there was this backlash, you know, on just what Singapore looks like internationally. This isn't like prime ministers calling each other up. This is just how the international community perceives Singapore as a nation, which is again what's happening to Qatar. What's being viewed now as a nation is much more powerful. So I'm glad they can have the world cup because it's showing them up for their human rights abuses. But similarly in Singapore, after losing at the Supreme Court, international community went, really? You're a modern progressive society. I am too sure about that. So they have you actually decriminalized through their parliament today. Yes. I just want to tell you, everyone, if you really want to make a positive change, then just do what is right. Just and always stand for yourself and your friends. Do the right thing. That's your small contribution. If we everyone do the right thing, that's going to be a huge change in the world. So if you ever see anyone in front of you being abused sexually or racism, stand by themselves and raise your voice. That's my request to everyone. Thank you. Say bye, Matt. So say bye to you now. Bye. Bye, my audience as well. Thank you so much.