 Good day and welcome back to the Forty Autie podcast with your host Mr. Tom Sandlow of course talking about everything autism, mental health, neurodiversity, all of that lovely stuff. Today we're going to be talking about autism in women and I've wanted to talk about this for a long time because it's such a hot topic like a lot of the research and stuff is mainly done around men and so there's a little bit of a stereotypical bias when it comes to diagnosis in the medical, educational arenas and so I think it's really good to chat about exactly what the different experiences may be perhaps from men in comparison to women. So today I have my very lovely guest Taylor who comes from the YouTube channel Mum on the Spectrum or Mum on the Spectrum, let's forget that and Taylor has you know been doing very very well over on YouTube I think reaching about just over 30,000 subscribers which is massive accomplishment and Taylor how are you doing today? I'm doing really well I've been looking forward to having this time with you for a while so I appreciate you bringing me on. Thank you very much and yeah I think what I just want to talk about quickly is I guess a little bit about sort of the history or the background behind you starting up your YouTube channel you're doing your work online could you give us like the lowdown on and yeah absolutely I so I'm 33 almost 34 and I first suspected that I was on the Spectrum when I was 31 and for me I knew like once once I once I had a better understanding of what autism actually is and got over my own bias I was like I felt it in my soul I was like this is who I am and you know I had received other labels like ADHD you know you're just stressed you have a lot of anxiety that's what I heard my whole life and those labels were helpful but I still felt like I was searching and whenever I found the label of autism it was like coming home like I feel like I could stop searching and everything just kind of clicked into place almost just like putting a camera lens on and you hear that click and then you can just see yes yeah yeah so when I discovered that for myself I didn't feel like I personally needed a medical diagnosis to support my own validation but the way that I am in my life I typically the way that I work through things because I've you know I've been I've actually been through a lot like a lot of health things a lot of relational issues and the way that I work through things is I you know when I was younger someone told me if you can't talk about it it owns you and so I've really taken that to heart and I always try to talk about what I'm going through and it always empowers me and it connects me to other people you know I realize I'm not on yeah I realize I'm not alone whenever I share my story and so when I knew this you know in my soul okay I'm autistic I kind of it's I laugh now because I know myself and I know okay Taylor like I know you're gonna share this with everyone that you know because that's just how I process things and so I sought out the professional diagnosis because I knew I know my tendencies and I know you know I'm gonna share this publicly and I wanted to have that backing so that I just didn't want to lead anybody astray I wanted to set a good example and make sure that I had you know all my ducks in a row so with that said I got I got my professional diagnosis when I was 31 and then I just you know it's like for so many other people I've talked to it's this light bulb that goes on and you feel like your whole life starts making sense and I just I wanted to explore it and I wanted to invite other people to explore it with me so I made my first video kind of secretly like I just I snuck into a room and like I had you know horrible equipment and I just started I had no idea what I was doing hi guys welcome welcome to a youtube channel um there's like 20 cuts just for that sentence yes yes yes yeah I had absolutely no idea and you know looking back now it's you know kind of cringe but it's part of my journey you know I look back and like okay that's where I started so um yeah along the way it just it started gaining steam and actually part of what kind of shot it up is the video that I did over autism in women that really was very appealing to a lot of people because I think it's you know what a lot of people are wanting to learn about and explore right now so that's why I started it so I was super excited. The diagnosis process is just the diagnosis process for for women is just appalling it's very difficult it's yeah yeah there's a lot of adjectives but it's appalling yeah sorry I quit you off there were you were you going to say anything else or I don't think so I um I really like about what you said about how if you don't talk about it it owns you and you know for me I think you know the greatest sort of progression in my life and the greatest sort of self-growth that I've done has always come through you know first talking about it you know for me you know talking about it on on the internet it doesn't really seem as um as much of a big deal as perhaps other people in my life would would think of it because they're like oh you're putting yourself out there you know you're telling all these people you struggle with this that and that and you're good at this and you think this about this situation and I think I understand I understand that view but I also think that it's it's really important to have a dialogue about things especially when there's a stigma around it especially when there's a stereotype around it and um you know going a bit off off off that trainer thought um what I really love about your channel is that you know for a long time we've had pretty much like you could say more but pretty much three groups within like the autism sphere you have like autistic adults in the community you have parents of autistic people and you have the medical system like the diagnosticians and the therapists and stuff and I've I've always been of the sort of the motivation to try and pull these these different spheres together so it's it's more cohesive right and so you know coming across your your channel and sort of having look at the kind of content that you make and you know just going by by your name as well I mean it's it's great to bring those those parenting and autistic adult worlds together because I feel like you know the the autistic adults of today you know they may have kids and become an autism parent themselves and also the you know autistic and yeah I think it's really valuable to kind of both talking about parenting as as as a parent of an autistic person but also your experience of parenting as an autistic person so I really love that kind of stuff that you do and it's um I really really really admire it oh thank you I feel honored to do it I mean there's a lot of days when I just honestly I'm kind of brought to tears because it's like I found my community I just these are my people and I I love what I do so I appreciate you saying that well it doesn't happen like as often as people think like with with the following stuff because I get a lot of messages like well not a lot actually like now and again I get messages from people who listen to the podcast and they're like hey I'm sorry I know you probably get loads of emails but I just want to say you're great and I love the stuff and I'm like this is this is great I love this like it's really actually very motivating to hear hear that from people yeah it is a lot of people just get in touch when something's wrong or something's negative um that's kind of the ignition for it but yeah I mean I guess how how did you start your youtube channel and what kind of like what was in your mind when you wanted to share it and what kind of sort of changes did you make along along the journey of getting getting to the the place that you are now good question so I knew when I started it I got my diagnosis and I finally felt like you know nothing is wrong with me I had a name to help me understand my experiences and not to say that I don't have plenty of unique challenges you know that that bother me every day but I really wanted to share the message that you are okay I really wanted other people to know that you don't have to keep trying to fit yourself into a box and do things that are really uncomfortable you know you're okay as you are and so I've tried to keep that message consistent throughout all my work you know when I when I originally started I didn't even I just knew I wanted to talk about it and so my original name when I started was the atypical aspie and that was kind of a mouthful like I just didn't sit well so I kept that for a while ended up changing it um I I have found throughout the process that people have given me a lot of feedback so I think that the ADHD side of me kind of likes the quick cuts and like you know just the quick edits and transitions but that is that's really upsetting to a lot of people in the autistic community they don't like the quick cuts they'd rather just have the long you know continuous shot so I've started making my my videos more long continuous without like the jumpy cuts um and that's something I'll do in like fun videos because I still like the energy that brings but yeah I think I just I take feedback from the community so I'll I'll ask people what they want to learn about and then I essentially just kind of take that as an opportunity to learn more about it um so and then I also just I model it off of what I'm learning in my own life so whenever I learned about the term autistic inertia for example I just went crazy with that and I just had a field day learning about it and then wanted to make a video about it so I think and just from a technical standpoint putting less sounds and distraction in the video I mean the autistic community just in general seems to like a pretty straightforward like no bells and whistles kind of presentation which actually makes things a lot easier um so I feel like I'm cut I'm kind of dialing into a more calm tone throughout if that makes sense that's a big a big change that I've made that's really interesting I um I I I've been told that I even get two reactions to to the podcasts and the videos that I make it's either oh you're so boring or all your voice is really relaxing yeah I think the latter whenever I hear your voice I'm like oh I'm in a calm space right now well um I guess it would be quite apt to add a little bit of a speech a praxic moment now I guess we should jump into the first question of a topic you know everyone we're talking about autism in women and um of course this is going to be extremely extremely generalized just as with talking about any concepts to do votes them everyone's different everyone has their own experiences not everybody fits into you know a particular label of being a woman but I'm sure that whether whatever you identify with you will find some use in this so I guess the first thing that I want to ask you Taylor is what is your experience of secondary school like what what is the experience like for for a autistic woman yeah and I had this conversation with Thomas earlier it's like I don't call it secondary school so my brain is always like whoa high school yeah high school and middle school I love I love that difference so so I you know looking back on it I just always felt on like I had to be on and I was like vibrating like with this electric energy of kind of not feeling settled and I am an overachiever and I found that if I could follow the rules and not make any waves if I could make good grades I would stay under the radar um and in making good grades honestly I mean I say it was easy for me I put a lot of work in but it was easy because I knew how to do it like the teachers give you a formula do this study this now it was hard for me to learn from my teachers if it was only like a lecture because I have to have words in front of me I have to have something in front of me and in order to understand what I'm learning so I would mainly like learn things on my own and that was hard because basically I'd be sitting in class just waiting until like they gave us the assignment like okay I don't hear anything that you're saying I'm not internalizing any of this lesson like just tell me the page number Taylor I I have the exact same experience it's actually quite bizarre I um was definitely uh overachieving myself I didn't get in trouble hardly any ever it was only at like the start of probably probably you could say about middle school um when when I tended to get in trouble that's because I was talking so much but like in secondary school like I just became like a completely different person I lost like all of my charisma energy personality whatever you could say became very sort of dissociated and detached and I really love your exact your description of like that sort of buzzing electricity anxiety because that is like I I've tried to explain that to a lot of therapists that I've worked with or to my family or to to love ones our friends and I always describe it as sort of having like ants crawling on your bones like mm-hmm kind of this this uncomfortable internal feeling of just painful electric but it's only like mild in the background like all the time yeah absolutely I feel like you know definitely it's like the whole secondary high school experience it was it was pretty much just complete dissociation from start start of the day till the end of the day and I really can't recall a lot of the in-depth sort of details and the positives and stuff because you know a lot of the stuff that was going on around me whether it was to do bullying or whether to do with sensory overwhelm or it was generally not feeling a bit paranoid because I didn't understand what was going on in the social world I found it really hard and I looking back on it you know I feel like I was pretty heavily dissociated for the majority of high school yeah and so two things I'm gonna say it so don't forget it so the dissociation and the bullying so with dissociation I you know I know during this time we're all figuring out who we are but for me I was whoever was in front of me and that's that's that's how I first came to study autism because one of my colleagues mentioned the term copy and paste behavior and I just instantly knew what that was I had never heard that before but but I was like okay so you're telling me that other people don't constantly watch what other people are doing and like try to mirror what they're doing in the social and then she was like no that's not a normal thing so yeah I feel like I just I took on the personality of whoever whoever was in front of me like if they were bubbly and social I could I could emulate that if they were quiet and reserved I would emulate that and so along with the dissociation I just and this is with the sensory burnout too my brain's hopping a bit all over the place but like being with the fluorescent lights and like the talking and then after class going straight out into the hallway where it's people everywhere touching you and oh god so you re-created it too much stay trigger warning trigger warning busy hallways yeah but all of that like constantly being on constantly copying and pasting uh yeah dissociation for sure and also I was so depressed and anxious for a lot of my high school years you know I'd have I think I had a family member reach out to my parents and they're like is Taylor okay you know because I just on the outside you know I was I was the leader of our National Honor Society I was the drum major in our band I created an after school group that I ran like I was at everything all the time and and from the outside I looked okay but inside I was I was really shuggling do you find that like a lot of the sort of the extracurricular stuff and like the sort of the work that you did during school was kind of like trying to put some some form of like certainty on the environment because any any time that I was outside during break or lunch time I almost indefinitely just get get that incredible feeling of anxiety and sort of you know the hyper-awareness that you get when you're teenagers amplified so much and if I felt okay if I actually had work to do so I would usually like try and do my homework in the lunchtimes in the library yeah just because it was like something else that certain that I could focus on that's not like in this crazy environment yeah and I and I think that's too like with the leadership positions I could be among the people but I didn't have you know I had a specific set of instructions and I was responsible for leading and taking charge and I I knew my role there I was fine in front of a group of people you know I do there's some social anxiety there but I'm actually pretty comfortable you know on the stage in front of people and and so I enjoyed leading things because I could still be around the people without needing as much of a script to do so and there's a bit there's a bit more of that sort of the social norms are different in like a presenting leading environment like a workplace environment when you when you compare it to outside which teenagers is just absolutely mess yes absolutely mess yes and then what I was going to say about bullying is I you know I remember one instance in middle school and I guess I was I don't know probably 10 or 11 and I I had been invited to a sleepover that I later felt like I was invited to just because um almost for like I don't know spectacle feels like the wrong word but I've definitely felt like I wasn't one of the girls and when I went like it was really important to me I really liked these girls a lot I thought that they you know I wanted to be in this friend group and when we were there they would like I remember them all being in a different room and just kind of laughing and looking at me like I always felt like I wasn't part of it and I remember like an object rather than yeah and they would say okay well let's play you know truth or dare and they would give me a dare in the other room and it would be something you know I remember at the time it was humiliating they're like go shave your legs you know and I it was just weird you know it's like they they gave me things to do and then they would like stand around and like laugh and so it's hard to know you know because in my head I'm like well it's kids and they're being silly but I just always kind of felt like this outsider that they didn't know what to do with and so I think I remember my mom coming to pick me up early from that because I just I was like I don't think that I really belong here I don't know what's happening but it doesn't feel right yeah I really appreciate you being open about that because it's although although it's far in the past it's still you know it's it's it's quite an early part of you know your your development as a human being it's it's almost well it is a critical part of many people's lives and having having a negative time in a difficult time with people especially like around teenage hood it can really like screw up a lot of people for life and there's not a lot you know some people they'll sort of deviate they'll find orders and they'll kind of process it all and all that but there's a lot of people who just continue to sort of live their life and they have this very combative sort of defensive way of approaching relationships and friendships and it's kind of it's kind of like copying like how people were to you when you were younger yeah and I definitely I definitely was like that and it was only until like when I was 18 19 because I was diagnosed when I was 10 years old but I only really understood it as more than social difficulties and sensory difficulties when I sort of got involved with the autistic community it's kind of it's kind of like a new a new diagnosis for me it's I did not know a lot about it at all and a lot of the therapy that I had was specifically around depression and anxiety I think you know that when you when you're talking about that sort of situation of being like a spectacle I can think of a lot of situations in my life where I empathize with you on that like there was a situation perhaps when I was a bit younger because I was you know a teenage boy I was pretty much obsessed with just school Taekwondo and girls and that was my there's there's my um interesting sessions yes indeed and the issue was that is that it led me down a lot of routes to be made a spectacle of so like you know I would think that someone is interested in me they give me like the signs they say oh come hang out with me but all the time I know because there's always a friend there and that you know they're always sort of giggling and talking and you know that kind of feeling where you just feel a little bit like an object or like a source of fun or difference in their life I felt that very very heavily like I really empathize with that yeah yeah it's an uncomfortable feeling it's like a fish out of water kind of feeling where you just start to question like well what what is it about me you know why why why do they look at me that way yeah yeah definitely it's obviously it and for everything obviously my my social skills are a lot better now and I understand sort of the ways that I'm different a lot better than I did back then but it it did pretty much happen in every every way possible and I never really masked that much or not as much as I can remember most of my masking was just being quiet and observing I didn't really interact with people like that I didn't really copy them but it did start to happen when I got to university because I I understood a lot more about social world I had those those negative experiences and so I kind of put like researched all of like the positive traits that I need to embody and I just embodied them and it was it was extremely toxic for me because I was just putting on a front I'm putting on a mask but at school I was I was pretty much just me just very very quiet me very introverted me and I was a big target for emotional social bullying not a very big target for physical bullying because of my my size yeah that's that's a good distinction to bring up definitely I don't I don't think we talk about that enough the emotional social bullying yeah I mean I've had instances I definitely have there was this one situation where I was in line for a class and one of the other popular kids was kind of picking on someone else and I sort of intervened and said you know why you're doing this and so they punched me in the balls and they they hollered over their friend group to come over and say oh my god look at Tom he's not reacting to me hitting him in the balls and so they all sort of gathered around me and punched me in the balls that was that was the most physically like physical bullying I experienced yeah that's terrible I think the the best way that I can describe sort of the like the whole secondary school situation and its relationship to like trauma or bullying would be it was very diffuse it was very just yeah spaced out quite a lot and it was pretty much every situation from getting on the bus to getting into school classroom classes I loved them I was great at them I did the same as you I researched beforehand and didn't really listen and then sort of got the assignment yeah but for the other times break lunchtime any sort of transition period that was like full on anxiety mode and I wanted to be interacting with people and I wanted to have like a relationship I wanted to have friends and so I put myself in that situation pretty much all the time yeah and it wasn't always the best definitely not but diffuse is definitely the the best way of describing it it's not like a significant event I don't know I think for me too it's like it's bringing up that phrase you know death by a thousand cuts it's like each individual thing if you look at it you're like oh that's not too big of a deal like I can I can manage that but then all of a sudden you know you've got 10,000 paper cuts and you're like what is happening so I think I think diffuse is a good word for it it just kind of yeah it's it's hard to just point your finger and be like this but it's just this this conglomerate just kind of you know all of everything all at once all the time especially we are a vulnerable group in terms of social stuff and being manipulated and emotionally and socially abused it's quite easy to do it to a very young autistic person so it's like you know there's I think the best way of describing it is like I don't want to make comparisons to be like taking away from the diagnosis but I know that you know for example with PTSD there is a specific event that happens and you get stressed from that event and it caused you to get PTSD is that one traumatic event that's categorized whereas something like CPTSD complex PTSD that's kind of the more like diffuse thing you know because we're so sensitive as well to sort of other people and emotions because we just are always kind of in limbo about what's going to happen next or did that some that that person say something in a different way and am I not interpreting that it's like it's like someone's cut off like part of your senses and you just can't make make sense of what's going on. Yeah and I don't know if you've found this but you know when I get to work with the autistic community every day it's like I feel that we're you know generally speaking very empathetic and somebody's even described it as like being an antennae when you walk in a room you just like you know what other people are thinking and feeling and I think a lot of that is because you know the copy and paste like trying to figure out what everybody is thinking what everybody needs and what I'm supposed to do in the situation and so naturally kind of makes us in tune with what other people want and need and I think that's one of the reasons that we're a target you know intentional or unintentional because people see us to be empathetic and able to you know relate to what they're going through and so I think a lot of times that's taken advantage of because unfortunately there's not there's not enough empathy to go around sometimes. Yeah and it is a time of time in everyone's life where you know they're not adults you know they they have a lot of growing to do as well as yourself it's kind of I think just that fact and sort of like you know because we tend to be sometimes characterized as like little professors when we're younger because we like to talk to adults because they speak directly whereas when we go around the kids they're always like they take advantage of our directness and they kind of take different routes to sort of communicate with the people around them. Yeah I remember there's one situation at school where I was in a group and you know one of the individuals was known for using like their own language between themselves between them and another person and I had a close friend who you know I think now and did think then was a good friend and they told me about this while we were doing it and they were talking about me and they had a word for me and I was just like oh my god that's just absolutely I think that's a good a good way of describing how it feels to be autistic at school like everyone's in on the joke and you just have no idea and you're just trying to navigate it and not sink like yeah yeah yeah I can see that but then there's also the aspect of puberty you know I can talk about my experiences I didn't really have many issues related to puberty other than the emotions other than that's what I was gonna say typical adolescent brain perhaps a bit of itchiness and acne but I guess I would really like to know what sort of your your experience of that was yeah I mean definitely emotions that that's hard you know alexa thymia something that we really struggle with on the spectrum and the inability to name what you're feeling and you know as as an adolescent girl it's hard when your your hormones are changing and you don't really have any words to to communicate what those emotions are like you know that you're not okay but you don't know how to communicate that so I think for me that led to a lot more shutdowns and you know I don't want to I don't want to put the name selective mutism on it but I think that helps some people understand it's like these instances where you just you just are unable to communicate hmm yeah and I can see that looking back on how I did that you know with my family and the people that I felt safe around but you know a big one for me was just feeling like I didn't have control over my body you know and this this is a point right now where I'm terrified as a mom of an autistic girl who needs to have this conversation like she is going to flip out and she finds out what is going to happen with her body and I was thinking about this as I was kind of thinking through our conversation today and I'm I'm wondering if this you know I've been studying more demand avoidance and I feel like this could relate because it's like your body is demanding that you change and there's nothing that you can do about it and it's just it feels crippling and like you're almost like a prisoner in your own body because you know the sensory element you know I don't know how much we want to get into it but the sensory element for a girl of of having a monthly cycle I mean it's like yeah I mean it's the worst thing for somebody who has these sensory aversions like it's like so hard and tampons and stuff yeah it's so hard and then and then that in a social context of you know like needing to ask for one at school it's like it just is it's compounded like everywhere so it's it's for sure so hard and you know it's hard when you feel like you can't reach out to the people around you to talk about it because you don't know how so definitely very challenging time and I am like I said I am really like sweating it over here because my daughter needs to have the conversation soon and you know this just a little funny bit she told me the other day mom I really do not ever want to be pregnant and I said okay I said that's fine totally that's your decision and she goes but how and I said well you just you know you can decide that you don't want to have a kid she goes that doesn't make sense I said well you and your partner y'all decide together like if you want to have a kid or not she goes mom that does not make any sense so I think you know she's going to keep pushing on that and I'm I'm working on I'm working on how you've already she's already laid the groundwork she's going to pursue until she gets the answers yes she's got that single focus for tonight she's not going to forget about this for sure I um I think definitely that my friend Vicki from actually Aspling she does um oh she is researching for a doctor in psychology she's done some she's done a presentation at the autism show in Manchester on autism and puberty and girls and that was that was quite eye-opening because like you know obviously I don't have those experiences I um you know it but it was really it was really good to kind of hear the sort of the other side of it because I think I think with with men it's it's not as other than sort of the acne and the voice change and the facial hair and the body hair and stuff and of course the emotions I don't I don't think that we have it as as hard in terms of like the sensory aspects um definitely around around the monthly cycle and stuff yeah because that's never ending right it was like that that follows us follows us everywhere it's the start and then it just continues until it stops yeah yeah it's just crazy so we've talked a little bit about sort of the experience at second school like it's it's very traumatic for a lot of autistic people it's you know no matter no matter what your gender or sexual sexual orientation or what your sexuality is it's always going to be very difficult and um I think it would be good to talk a little bit about like the social norms like if we were to sort of talk in a broad sense um not necessarily about second school but it can be related what social norms around women make it hard well for me specifically so I'm in Fort Worth Texas I'm a Texan and I'm from the south and are you actually I am and we are we are expected to be a really good host and just open our home to everybody so it's like yeah where I'm from you know it's like everyone goes to church and everyone's inviting everybody over and you know you should just keep your front door unlocked and everybody's invited over you know that's how I grew up like and I'm really grateful for that like my parents were parents to many many people and I've always appreciated that about them but you know that's kind of the model that's set here is you know be the hostess with the mostess and and cater things and have people over and and that you know that's really really hard especially as a mom because now you know my kids are wanting to have their friends over and and I want to support them and I want this to be a safe place for their friends but the the energy cost of that is quite intense and it's something that I have to plan well in advance for and recover from afterwards so those types of so those types of expectations are really hard because I don't think it's the same for men you know men aren't expected to like cook a meal for everyone and you know be a safe place for everyone to come over you know after school or whatever and you know I don't want to speak for men but I'm just trying to think of the differences um gossiping is also a really big one like I feel like women just like to gossip and small talk you know can you believe what she was wearing why didn't she say that and that kind of stuff for me it's kind of like what you were saying about ants crawling on your bones I'm like well I can't this isn't a conversation for me you know I just don't like it it makes you feel uncomfortable you don't want to have the small talk you don't want to have all this gossip about it's very like I find you know just it's it's very people focused people and events focused when when I'm talking to neurotypical people whereas like with autistic people it's almost like we just jump straight into the meat of the topic and we're just talking about a fact or a concept or a theory or you know our thoughts or our feelings on on those things that's interesting like it being about about a person or event I saw this funny maybe we can link to it but I saw this funny reel I wish I remember the name but it was this autistic person saying a neurotypical hack is like just to mention what day it is at your workplace she was like neurotypical people just love talking about what day it is so you can just walk up and say it's Wednesday and they'll like have this whole conversation with you about yeah two more days to the weekend like they just like talking about I don't know events you know like that's so true I know you say like it's Monday oh yeah it's Monday and then they start talking to you I just thought it was such a clever little hack and it plays into what you're saying about because there's like specifics that they want to talk about but not the meat of it because if someone someone came up to me and said it's Wednesday I'd be like yeah it's Wednesday it's Wednesday period it's just stare stare at them like they're just not like yeah yeah you okay thanks for that um oh I thought that was pretty good yeah I um I do have experiences with the gossiping thing because I mean it's something that not a lot of people know about me sorry I was just looking at that person but it's okay I did not mean to like I just wanted to give credit to the author but now I've like have hijacked our conversation oh it's it's fine remember I've got the the old editing okay it's kailyn underscore vp and I can give you the spelling I know that I recognize that I was gonna say sorry it's okay it's fine yeah I I do have experience with the gossiping side of things like the majority of my friends when I was younger were women like I didn't really have any male friends I kind of had a male group that I went to to like play football or do some weird parkour stuff and that was that was quite nice but I never really felt like I really fit in with with those groups and so I always sort of gravitated around around women because I felt like the communication style that that deeds have was a lot more harsh or a lot more sort of direct and I was always looking for that kind of emotionally in-tune person to be friends with and it just just so happened that a majority of them were women but the gossiping is is real like it's it's um especially especially like in secondary school it's um it's it's it's really quite horrible it's like I know that there's been some research done about it where men are more likely to physically bully people but women are more likely to emotionally socially bully and I never really got that emotional emotional social bullying from um of a dude so it was pretty much when uh girls in my group sort of gossiping and you know because I was I was as spectacle as we talked about I was the the weird one I they didn't really show weren't really sure how to characterize me and I mean to be honest that that trend kind of continued for a long time I know I find it really hard to connect with other men and I've been trying to work on it quite a lot lately but um yeah they got the gossiping could you talk a little bit about a bit more about like kind of how it affected you or like did it have any yeah the gossiping to me you know one thing that I have also noticed generally speaking is really important to the autistic community is integrity and honesty I think that's maybe one of like the greatest strengths of the autistic community and for me it felt like playing with fire like I did not want anybody to think that I was talking badly about them I didn't want anybody to think that they couldn't trust me with what they needed to tell me so for me being associated with the gossiping it was like this isn't who I am this isn't you know it just it made me feel like it took away from my ability to be a safe place and I feel like that's one of the things that's most important to me is is to be a safe place for other people definitely well um they're talking a little bit about like the social norms I guess sort of transitioning to a topic that's you know related to autism in women mm-hmm not necessarily to secondary school what kind of challenges do you or have you faced in maintaining relationships and friendships whether it be something from your side or whether it be the other people around you yeah this is something we've been talking a lot in the uh a lot about in the community groups that I've been running lately and it's it's really interesting to go back and explore so I have I have a best friend that has stuck with me like we've been best friends for 20 years and the the people in my life that I have relationships with you know I don't necessarily I guess what I'm trying to say I have a few close friends who have been there forever like it's not like I'm over here making new friends and you know I've been able to do that a little a little bit through the channel which has been really wonderful but in terms of maintaining the relationships I think honestly kind of my saving grace with my best friend her name's Bolly we only had two years together so she was here in seventh and eighth grade that was right before high school or secondary school and then she had to move across the country and ever since then we have been long-distance best friends and I think that that's been really helpful for us because I need a lot of space and I need a lot of time by myself and I just I feel like it's a really good I need boundaries of knowing like this is my space this is my time and I love where I do anything for I drive across the country today to go see her if I could so I think that that personal space is really important I think communication you know obviously this is a big one maintaining relationships communication is kind of what you were saying earlier like I just want to jump in and talk about the meaning of life you know something big and and sometimes that can be really off-putting of like wow like did you know today is Wednesday so you just jump straight into the the core topic like that yeah like like when have you been most afraid and you're like no not like that but so I think the challenge there is that I like when I do commit to someone I'm very intentional and I will remember your birthday and I'll send you a card and I'll remember that appointment that you had that you were nervous about and I'll text you about it and and so I think it's just with me it's like all or nothing and that can be kind of a tough balance to strike with with a lot of people sure I think the I really feel the communication aspect of it because I've had a lot of friends kind of in there in the past sort of dropping off like out of my life not not necessarily like by anyone's decision but you know especially when you're you're a creator and what you do for a living or partly what you do for a living is create content there's talk to people is you know you create a post you have comments you reply to the comments you get messages you have to see through the messages make sure you get all of them and like managing that as well as managing friendships it's so difficult and you know what you're saying about having like a long distance friend my my best friend well my really good friend she we have a long history and she was she's always been like really really really supportive of me and she was kind of like the one of the first people at university to kind of for me the first connection that I had like proper connection that I had in adulthood not not all of them of course but it's a specific one because I had a lot of depression a lot of anxiety and stuff and there was an instant where I tried to like you know put a full stop at the end of my life and she was the one who's who saved me and like got me support and I've always had a very very very close relationship I think of her as a sister she's like an amazing amazing person I hardly ever talked to her hardly ever like maybe three or four times a year like even just on messages and messaging and stuff and I think it's it's hard sometimes especially with communication because it's not like you can put a stopper on it and yeah if you were to start a conversation with somebody they may they may think that you're wanting to have a conversation but you might just be sending a message and then coming back and sending a message the next day or in a week or so you never really know that stuff and it always makes me feel very very anxious and like oh my god I haven't spoken to this person they're gonna think I'm dead they're gonna think I don't want that one to be friends with them anymore and some people are like that and some some people do just just drop off the deal with this like you know my friend if you we talk so yeah they don't say that but it just happens yeah it's kind of reminding oh sorry I don't want to cut you off please please go on I was just gonna say it's reminding me of I guess that I can put it in like a text message perspective it's like I think a lot of times when people need something they'll reach out and be like hey how are you how's it going what how are the kids doing yadda and then they'll ask for what they need but for me you know for me I'll just like hey you know can I borrow your yeah I'll just come straight out and like you know I haven't talked to you in three months but like can I borrow this it's like to me that's more kind it's like this is what I this is what my intention is you know I'm not trying to deceive them into thinking that you just yeah I'm not trying to just catch up for the heck of it you know so it reminded me of what you said about putting a stop around things it's like I just kind of come out of the gate swinging and and you know with the with the other side of like how are you how's your day going I that's where I feel like there's no stop around things of like okay I'm not signing up for this you know this isn't this isn't what I have the capacity for right now I've managed to distill it down to her hey how's it going good how's you going and then I get into the topic I've managed to distill it down to that so far so yeah there's a little bit yeah I tend to do that too just that initial like hey how are you typically all this needed well that's kind of I suppose it could could be seen as sort of speaking in terms of friendships but what about like romantic relationships or any other class of partner partner relationship yeah so one thing that I come across with a lot is kind of generally speaking again our inability to decode flirting I was I was running a class on this other day on dating and relationships and somebody was saying that they had gone out for drinks and somebody come back and their friends were like how was the date and she was like that wasn't a date and they're like that was the date so just knowing like she had been invited on a date went on a date didn't know that it was the date and came home and like all of her friends were like you went on a date so I think there's a lot of the decoding where unless it's like very specific like I want to date you I want to hold your hand you know so I definitely think it can be hard to receive flirting and understand it also to give you know to be flirtatious because that to me that almost feels like a mask you know again I just like to be kind of straightforward about what I'm thinking and feeling it's kind of it's it's difficult isn't it because as much as we would like to avoid it there is you know there is some kind of playing aspect of the whole you know are we gonna are we gonna go on a date whatever are we attracted to each other and there's kind of that that whole especially at the start that kind of strange dynamic where you both know that you both understand what you're sure is trying to do and you're trying to work with that especially with the flirting like I've had I've had people flirt with me before and I know it's it's hard to believe but no it's not and it's I pretty much always take it as a negative like if people are like poking me and like uh picking at me I'm like I don't like that person it's like I'm pushing to the side and you know you have that whole rhetoric of oh if you're you're younger and you're at school and a girl's like hating you and like picking at you it means that they like them it's kind of like that but I just take it straight as a negative and I just think that's interesting like the the whole sort of flirting dynamic it's very very like I don't like it really that much yeah it's confusing and I know that it's something that's needed like sometimes especially if you're wanting to date in a a stereotypical individual it can be quite hard definitely like yeah because it's yeah it's definitely an important part of a of a relationship in the sense that you're you know flirting is a way to express interest in each other and you know I think along with that comes physical touch which can be very challenging you know a lot of people on the spectrum are our need for physical touch is going to be very different so some people might need a whole lot of it and might need like really you know firm kind of physical pressure and then some of us don't want to be touched at all kind of sensory defensive kind of yeah and then that might that might change every day so like maybe today you need lots of attention and affection and the next day you don't want any so that can be very hard to navigate in a relationship because it you know most of the time I get generally speaking for the autistic population like it's not personal you know it's not because I don't like you and you're making me mad it's like I just need some space don't want to touch anyone I don't want anybody to touch me and especially as a mom when you have your kids climbing on you all day every day the world is talking about that as well I was listening to that one the other day yeah I mean I obviously I was thinking it would be great to talk to you about about parenting and stuff just you know yeah and you know how you present yourself online I think I think it's really interesting I I I forgot something and then I've remembered it about sort of that whole flirting dynamic thing and it's it's very indirect it's all in it's indirect communication like direct communication most of the time for me has not worked like going up and saying hey I like you do you want to go on a date you know like do you want to do this like actually having the you know doing the questions kind of detracts from the whole process that a lot of people go through when they find someone new and so they kind of think it's a bit weird it's kind of a bit desperate even even though they may be feeling like that's something that they might you're something that they might want to pursue yeah it still comes back to the fact that you know you're being direct with them and that's kind of rushing things along in that brain like mm-hmm yeah it's very confusing you know it does like like you said you can be direct about something and then the other person might want that too but it's like the fact that you were direct about it kind of throws everything off which is but I like what you said about flirting being indirect communication and that makes a lot of sense why autistic people would struggle with that because we do prefer direct communication and we have a hard time reading between the lines so that that makes a lot of sense I've done a lot of work on improving cognitive empathy which is do you are you aware of the adaptive cognitive empathy stuff a bit I've done a little bit of research on it not enough to like explain it to you okay so adaptive empathy is showing the it's pretty much what we think of empathy being it's showing the correct response to someone's emotional state and there's another half to that there's the cognitive empathy part of it which is being able to notice based on indirect signals like bodily cues how they're speaking whether they're acting differently than usual and if I think that that's you know over time I've really been sort of trying to build up my cognitive empathy so I can tell nowadays if people are all like interested in me I got to whether they want to be friends or whether they want a relationship but I know that they want to interact with me but the actual like especially if I was thinking myself as a single man going out in the world and I didn't have access to any online apps or anything like that I would just walk around thinking nobody likes me like because I just literally I just don't pick up on any of those like signals those signs so I almost in the past you know primarily use dating apps which you know that could be a whole conversation that we could have about that stuff but yeah that those early stages those are those we're really hard but and then can be quite difficult to navigate especially if you don't have a lot of experience but if you haven't dated anyone before if you haven't if you don't have a lot of practice with social interaction with neurotypical people I'm talking all of course in the context of autistic neurotypical but yeah now that can be a barrier but what about you know during you know once the relationship has been somewhat characterised as you guys being together what kind of issues do you think sort of come up as far as like maintaining that relationship um well I think it's a lot of the same actually I mean I think it's just continuous communication challenges I mean and that's any relationship like it's important to evolve your communication skills but particularly you know one thing that I do talk about a lot is whenever you're in a neurodiverse relationship we'll say one is neurodivergent the other is not it can be really helpful oh let's just say autistic if an autistic person can can become more aware and this is something we work on kind of in some workshops become more aware of what your signs are when you are having a meltdown um and that takes practice that takes time and then when you're not in meltdown mode at in a safe space and a safe time being able to communicate what that looks like to your partner so they know like that's a really major thing in neurodiverse relationships is autistic people feeling bad that they can't communicate what's happening when they're in meltdown or shutdown so if you can learn to communicate about those things before after they happen to kind of give your partner the understanding of okay this is what's happening it's nothing personal the things I can do to help are give space bring them a snack like take the kids for a while um so I think you know for a lot of autistic people it's learning how to communicate about these things when you're not in a state of shutdown and that has been really instrumental for a lot of a lot of relationships that I've worked with recently yeah I think it's it's it's always a a difficult one because you know there's that whole concept of double empathy you know we can find it a little bit harder to understand and empathise with the neurotypical experience and and likewise and so there's always some level of understanding or awareness gap like around communication especially when there's emotions involved like in an argument or something you know where oral logic goes out the way and run some some emotional state I think it's definitely like it's definitely a hard thing to do because it requires you to really really understand yourself yes but also understand yourself in relation to the neurotypical brain right it's different about them how am I different from them in these areas and then you've got to try and find ways to explain it so that they understand and they have to do the same so like the opposite of yes it's very convoluted yeah and it like you said it involves a lot of self-awareness and this to me is like a lifelong process because our our meltdowns and shutdowns are going to evolve and change over time and so just continually checking in with yourself and having that self-awareness of what is going on and like you said how do I communicate this and how is it different than what my partner is experiencing it's a lot it's very challenging I found for anybody who is maybe struggling and kind of sort of bridging that gap I found writing really helpful like having my own space to speak because socializing inherently has some kind of like driving force behind it like some kind of right we need to continue the conversation on so sometimes it's really hard to speak in a detailed understandable way like on the spot like especially if it's not something that we've we've been thinking about for a long long time and we don't have those views sort of inherent to us and I really like your suggestion about communication because it is ultra important in every relationship to communicate not many people get it right a lot of people do and then then adding the aspect of having two different brains together it's like Jesus you need to like properly understand the communication you know if someone feels that something's a bit off that you have a conversation about that and you try and get to the bottom of it it's not a fun process it's not like a romantic kind of ideal kind of situation in the moment it's not romantic but yeah I think then afterwards you feel the safety between the two of you you know so it's definitely worth that investment of time something interesting that might be helpful so in the community group I was running recently on dating and relationships there was a suggestion from one of the community members that I thought was just fantastic so in relation to physical intimacy we were talking about how difficult it can be to transition into that space and so they use they have a light like a special light and either either partner can turn it on whenever physical touch is okay whenever that's something that they want and nobody has to respond like it's it's you know take it or leave it kind of thing so nobody has to talk about the fact that the light is on nobody has to respond if they don't want to but it's it's one way they're able to communicate like I am open to receiving physical touch and it kind of cuts down on the need for communication and the and it helps transition and like from one mental state into another one if that makes sense yes it's kind of like the like the red light umber green light kind of system that you have like autistic people in school autistic people at events they have like the system where it's like green come up and talk to me you know amber it's like I prefer to to not talk um but if it's important come talk to me and then red's like no like get out get away I don't want to talk I suppose you could do it doesn't necessarily have to be a light does it it could be like a reversible wrist band or like a one of those yeah it could be anything those octopus plushies where you turn them inside out I have them wrapped them I have them wrapped under the Christmas tree right now for my kids nice nice that was the number one thing on my daughter's list she wrote a billion reversible octopuses I love I love the autistic sense of humor like I get stuff like my my mom's friends you know I'm quite close with my mom's friends and she has a daughter is his autistic and she comes out with the most beautiful statements because she's so hyperlexic she has all these this vocabulary to use and she just presents it in a way that just like it's so adult but she just says it as a kid so it's like and she doesn't really comprehend it that's great it's brilliant it reminds me my daughter will tell me about so my daughter's nine my son six and she'll talk about her younger brother he's antagonizing me no he's being mean like this is that antagonization and yes indeed mom he's gasoline me that's next he has a cognitive empathy for me right now I mean there's the stuff that we could that I could touch on quickly because I made like a sort of a single post over on my Instagram Thomas Henley UK if anyone wants to follow and I went through some of like the common barriers that that have come up for me and through talking to other autistic people it was the the direct versus indirect I think that's a really big thing because you know it's just the whole thing of you know the neurotypical being interpreted wrong and they're like you know what you said you know how you said that it didn't really sit well with me and we're like my words mean my words they're like the same yeah it's also those touch needs as as you were saying like I think for people who don't really understand autism and sensory stuff like you saying to your partner that your partner's coming over to cuddle and you're like no no no I don't want to cuddle now and and uh some people take that really badly so people are okay with it um I think guys definitely are another one there's also alexa thymia like as we were talking about earlier like how are you supposed to if your partner asks well how do you feel about it like how well how are you feeling in our relationship or how do you feel and it's like oh my god like I'm gonna have to spend like a week trying to figure out how I feel about it like yeah yeah and just having having the space I think is really important mm-hmm obviously the cognitive empathy you know neurotypical is getting frustrated at us because we can't understand how they're feeling without them telling us mm-hmm the hyper focus I think is yes another one mm-hmm so one may try to start a conversation with you when you're engaged with your special interest or when you know it's like can we not do this now um yeah definitely people find out that kind of inertia it's hard for people to understand yeah and also the processing especially during arguments processing time massive massive that's one thing I was going to mention is the delayed processing for sure that makes it difficult because I can we're also again saying in community groups like a lot of times the the answer that you give is not the real answers like if somebody asks you a question you give an answer it's not necessarily how you well let's say the question is how are you feeling you give an answer it's not necessarily the real answer because the delayed processing of it it's like like you said it's gonna take time like days a week later you'll be able to understand from behind start understanding start internalizing what actually what the impact of that conversation was how it affected you like it just takes a lot of time and it can be really uncomfortable for the other person when you like come back to a conversation a week later and you're like hey this is how I really feel about it yeah you're like why didn't you say that and they're like how are you hitting me with this now with no warnings like yeah you asked me to think about it and I thought about it and here I am and a week later yeah so trying to explain it to you but yeah I mean I think it's it's really really critical because it's not currently out but I'm sort of making a series that's kind of talking about autism in relation to like manipulation or emotionally abusive tactics like there's a particular one which I have experience with and it's absolutely awful it's called a weird salads yes have you heard of word salads yeah someone rattles off like continuous points unrelated to each other with the intention of just discombobulating you yeah Megan you confused and forgetting what your point was in the first place exactly and what we really need in an important conversation especially when it's about the relationship is even even less speed than usual and just time to think and time to like process and talk to it talk to each other about it but obviously it's not always like that and you know some people may get frustrated and say like well we need to talk about it now it's important I want to talk about it I'm feeling this way it's like it's probably not the best time to be talking if you're feeling like you can't sort of rein things in and just have a have a conversation yeah I don't I I think there's this stuff around that that's that's definitely pressing processing time especially with with people who are perhaps not the best for you can really sort of mess you up because you you feel like you don't have anything to say that you're stupid and you're like yeah you're not you just don't have the time to explain things and answer questions right and when you're dealing with the word salad and other manipulative tactics it just it's like somebody spins you around in a chair and it's like well wait exactly you know I I had a point and it was important for our relationship but now you know that it just kind of exponentially increases your processing time I think is what what you said yeah yeah he's always trying to like catch it with it shut shutdowns meltdowns obviously can be another whole different ball of eggs by ball of eggs a whole different ball of eggs the other day I was shooting a video and I said I was I meant to say can of worms and I said bag of worms and I didn't catch it until I was editing I was like what a bag of worms oh man my brain does that sometimes they take well known phrases and they just change one word in it and it just completely doesn't land but yeah the shut downs obviously I think are probably more problematic in a lot of senses because if you have the selective selective mutism that can really be hard for for people especially if you're having an argument yeah and then they push you further and then you have a meltdown it can it can really just get in the way of like productive conversation about like things that really need to be talked about within relationships yeah and the risk of sort of pushing pushing things onwards I mean I know we're sort of the overarching topic of the podcast is talking about autism in women and in what ways do you think the experiences of relationships for autistic women may be different hmm let me think about this one for a second I think one thing for women is the way and this kind of plays back into our expectations are just expected to look a certain way you know dress up for your partner and look cute and be flirty you know I think a lot of times for women we're expected to be the flirty one or you know I think to just going to events and being like the supportive girlfriend or whatever in the supportive partner can be hard because it's a lot of social interaction so I think just the way we carry ourselves and you know this might this might be less autism related but I think in general today it's just hard for many women to feel like they can be assertive which I do feel like actually is really important to talk about with autistic people because it's so important for us to speak bluntly and directly and a lot of times that is not received well like people don't like it a lot of people don't like it when women are assertive and they're unapologetic and so I think that's especially hard for autistic people who want to live a life of integrity and honesty and be open about what they're thinking and feeling I think a lot of times that can be met with like well you know you're you know the B word is kind of how it comes across so I think that bluntness and kind of clashes up against who we're expected to be in a relationship and I think women are ready to be like and we are we're the strong confident partner you know that wants to have equal say and you know I'm getting on my soapbox now but I think there's a lot at play there for sure thank you for that I think there's there's also another aspect which is perhaps a little bit more dark which is sort of in the realms of like abuse and negativity because the statistics that are out there like just for abuse in general in all all domains are pretty horrifying yeah and if I think I think I did see a study where it was like happens happens a lot more to autistic women especially since you have you know met men a lot more likely to have a certain personality that can be abrasive and manipulative and abusive sometimes mm-hmm I feel like considering that more men are like that I would you know I'd say that you know women are a lot more vulnerable to that kind of physical physical related abuse like yeah and it is unfortunate and again you know I'm thinking about these dating relationship groups I mean the the women who were open about the abuse that they faced was you know if I had to just give a number I'd say it was easily 60% and these were just the women who were open about yeah so unfortunately you know I feel like it again going back to what we said earlier generally speaking you know autistic people are pretty empathetic but even but women even more so you know and so I think that we tend to attract people sometimes that like you said give us word salads and are manipulative and try to use our empathy to make them feel better we kind of lose track of who we are and we want to make the other person feel better so we'll give our body we'll give you know our emotions and unfortunately a lot of times there'll be an abusive situation we're on the other side of it the delayed processing everything you know on the other side of it it takes you a while to realize what even happened and unfortunately that that is a common story among women on the spectrum I remember at the start when we were chatting you were talking about sort of the mirroring behavior with autistic women like the mirroring the masking I only recently realized that there's actually like three distinct types of autistic camouflage there's like masking assimilation and compensation that sounds great it's like the the three domains of camouflage and it was something really interesting about mirroring because we actually have neurons in our brains that do this and a lot of the time when when you mirror something it it's it's like a two-way street it's like you mirror something or present something on the outside and that has an impact on internally how you are and how you feel so like we're very much like a lot of us can be like emotional sponges in that case like we really take in on what people are feeling because we're mirroring what they're doing if they're acting angry we're going to be stern and angry or we're going to be blunt and straightforward if they're nice and empathetic we're like oh yeah it's like you know and I think that mirroring behavior it's it can have it's it's a lot less it's it's it's not really understood so much as an actual like biological neurological mechanism like it's it's a very very human thing like yeah we we actually use this this network for a lot of things and particularly like when we're making decisions which is when the whole introspection alexifamia stuff kind of gets a bit interesting we when we think about making decisions so we're in a supermarket we see one option and the other option and when we look at things and when we're going to buy something we kind of model what it would feel like to eat it you know in our brains and that actually produces physical feelings that are that encourages us to go one way or the other so I feel like so the the mirroring behavior I think because because men tend to do it a lot less we also we also tend to mask a lot less in general I think I think it's it's it's really important to kind of highlight that it is like a scientific like neurological thing that does happen and it can actually have really big impacts on you especially if you're doing it on a constant basis it's like yeah you don't get to develop that self that sense of self identity yeah it's always dictated by the people that you're talking to or people that you're around yeah well no I think it's a great point to mention and that's that's kind of again going back to like my bottom line with my videos and the reason I do the groups and coaching it's like that's my bottom line is that you you're worthy of being able to express your true self and there's there's so much that we do masking mirroring but and like you were talking about earlier dissociation it's like we've lost a lot of who we are in the process of trying to assimilate and trying to to be okay and to make it socially and so I think a lot of the work that that is important to me now is doing the work of unmasking and figuring out who's underneath and just giving that person a space to be safe and comfortable because we all we all deserve it and the world will ultimately be a more beautiful place when each of us is embracing who we really are it's like my good friend Brian Bird quite a prominent autistic speaker like diagnosed he said it's like having a new life or having been born again or you know there's there's so much incredible amount of growth that you can do once you know that you are autistic and you're like help into it and you really understand yourself in it and you can it's not even just like a present and then future effects it's like it can rewrite how you how you look at and how you understood and internalized like things in your past like things that happen because you didn't understand a certain situation or you know there's there's all of those things and it can it can be absolutely life-changing to yeah to go through that process and really you know it's amazing it is so it has been very very lovely to talk to you Taylor and I guess what I want to ask is where can people find you well you can find me on youtube dot com slash mom on the spectrum and my main website is mom on the spectrum dot life and you know I've been talking about community groups a lot I've got a lot more coming in 2023 I've been working on creating these safe spaces for us to come together and talk about these topics we talked about dating relationships autistic inertia demand avoidance ADHD and autism there's all these different topics I teach on them and then we have group discussion so you can find out more information about that at mom on the spectrum dot life slash community and I'm on instagram and tiktok yes I will stick all that stuff down in the comments as per not the comments the description as per usual and if you have enjoyed listening to me and Taylor ramble about autism in women make sure to go over and well head over to my instagram go DM me on there let me know that you've listened to this let me know your thoughts on it why what you liked what I could have done better anything like that always very open and if you are listening on a podcasting platform I would really really appreciate a rating or a view or anything like that preferably the five-star variety but obviously I have no control over that you're worth the five stars thank you thank you and yeah make sure to head over to my instagram I have a link tree on my instagram which pretty much covers all of my links but other than that there's the website thomashandley.co.uk I am in the process of starting up my own business so I will be self-employed at some point and I will be reaching out or sort of putting adverts out around doing one-to-one coaching as well as a bit of workplace sessions so if you want to stay up to date with that go over to my instagram that's pretty much the hub of all things and if you want to check out the rest of the videos I've made or took out the video version of this podcast you can head over to YouTube I think that's everything awesome well thank you for having me I I really appreciate the work you're doing I I particularly appreciate the the breadth of topics that you cover I mean I just you know listening to some of your podcasts I'm like oh my gosh nobody else is talking about these things so I just thank you for the work that you're doing and for inviting me on the show I feel really honored to be a part of what you're creating you've been an absolutely amazing guest and I have thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you and I'm sure everybody who's been listening to us will appreciate the um I was gonna swear I'm trying to think of a good appreciate the the the ever-loving person that you are I think you could tell where I was trying to go with that yeah thank you all for listening and I hope you have a very lovely day see you later folks