 So, wow, there's a lot of room for this voice in this big room here. First of all, thank you for coming. It's extremely nice to look at the audience because it's a very friendly audience because we can identify ourselves with very many of you. So thank you for coming, first of all. This is going to be a panel discussion which has open questions. It means that if you have a question that you want to bring out and you want to ask anything, then there is a microphone here in the middle. We're going to open it up afterwards, but if there is something burning on you that you just really want to ask, feel free to just come up and ask a question. So I think it would be good to make a short introduction. You will maybe hear it. I do come from another country than the United States. I come from Iceland. My name is Bhatti. And I'm the founder of Onex Internet. There is a software company in Europe. We are 65 people. And I am here today as the chair of the Drupal Association putting up this panel to bring out the role models in TAAC and a little bit because I often feel that this has been missing in my career to actually see other women that are doing something similar that I was always interested in. So therefore I am here. I'm going to just allow you to introduce yourselves because that's easier. So we start with you Ruth. Hi everyone. So my name is Ruth Cheesley and I work full time for Acquia as project lead for Mortik. Mortik is an open source project which allows you to do marketing automation. I use two Drupal sites but I wouldn't say I'm massively aware of everything in Drupal but working at Acquia you kind of pick it up as you go along. My background is in running a full service digital agency with Joomla. So hopefully you'll still allow me to stay. And yeah, I became community manager for Mortik about two years ago, two and a half years ago and stepped up to project lead about a year and a half ago. So great to be here. So thank you. Just for information. So project lead means just like Drees is for us in Drupal community a project lead for the Drupal project. Yeah, that's the same. Correct. You're in the multi-community. Yeah, yeah. Cool. That's really impressive. Loli. Yes. Hi. Nice to meet all of you. I am what I understand that you guys call me the end user. So please allow me to stay. I'm thrilled to be here. I was involved with the Drupal association in the community many years ago to come join the board. So that is my relationship with Drupal. And of course, as part of the end user committee have served many digital roles in big corporations that were end users of Drupal. The reason why I'm here is because Drupal is an amazing project to be part of the largest open source community in the world is truly an honor. So it's been an amazing run for me. In my daytime, I lead the retail bank technology and payments technology for Capital One. Capital One is a large credit card and bank here in the United States. I've been in this role for about two months. And prior to that, I was in another fintech. I worked for the credit bureau. So I worked for Equifax for three years. And prior to that, many other digital roles. I spent most of my career creating really cool products for people to buy online. Glad to be here. Thank you. All right. Hi, everybody. My name is Kat White. I am the chief technology officer of Canopy Studios. So I am on the agency side. We are a digital agency specializing in design development and support for clients who want to make a positive impact. Myself, I've been involved with Drupal as an engineer since about 2006, although it has been a minute since I have been in the code. And yeah, excited to have the opportunity to be up here today. I've been in the agency space for... I've been at Canopy for almost six years now and in the agency space for about 15 years. Cool. So we are just going to go straight into it. Because I have so many burning questions that I want to ask all of you. One of them is like, are you all engineers or computer scientists? Or what's your background? What brought you to TAC? Who wants to start with that one? I can start. Sure. So I am not a computer science person. I actually started in business school. So my background is management information systems. So more on the data and business analysis side of the house. I graduated and started working in... managed to convince somebody I knew enough cold fusion to get an engineering job, went from there to Java, and was doing PHP in WordPress for my own personal projects and then really fell in love with the open source community ethos, got involved with Drupal at one of my agency jobs and went from there. But I came at it much more from a business problem-solving perspective than I did from a pure engineering perspective, at least initially. So this is funny because we actually do not... We did not rehearse this, but I have the same background as Kat. Years ago when I started in engineering, it was only computer science. And I was just kind of roughing it and trying to make it work for me. And I remember going to my advisor for computer science and I said, listen, like my capstone project is writing a compiler. So I will date myself. I was a C++ programmer. And I'm like, why do I have to write a compiler? Borland already created it. Like what are we doing here? I find zero motivation to keep on. And this advisor very kindly looked at me and said, well, listen, you're a pretty girl. Pretty girls aren't computer scientists or engineers. You don't have to do that. There's this new degree on the business school. It's called management information system. And that's where people like you, you're a good enough programmer. But you have all these questions about how the business works and that may be a good fit. And I remember calling my dad so mad going, dad, this is the first time anybody's called me pretty. I was always the smart girl. And now I'm too pretty to stay in computer science. And long story short, I gave it a try. I took a few classes, loved the program. So I ended up graduating with an MIS degree. But my first job was actually as a data scientist. So back then they were called industrial engineers. I spent a ton of time just kind of mining data and creating products for hotel rooms. And that's, you know, how I ended up in technology. Ruth, what about you? Totally different to both of you. So I've always been a geek. But you always, my mom was a typist and she had an Amstrad 9512 computer. Which I used to, in the back of the manual, it taught you how to write basic programs. And I used to make this little Pac-Man game. But when it came to careers time at school, they were just like, no girls, don't do that. There was a bit, I was doing A level maths, double maths and physics. So there was a bit of a, well, you could be an engineer, but like, it's not really what girls do. So I ended up actually doing sports science. And then I did a master's degree in physiotherapy, qualified as a physio. And basically, when I graduated, there was a crisis in our health service in the UK. And entry level physios couldn't get, there were like hundreds of applicants for every job. And I had to pay the rent. So I started building websites for people with Joomla. I did try Drupal, but people were not very helpful to me when I was a newbie who wasn't a developer and didn't know what the heck a module or anything was. So I ended up going to Joomla. And yeah, I just built my way into tech that way, really. And started an agency that agency grew really quickly. And came across Mortic. I used to be on the leadership team for the Joomla project because I made the mistake of complaining. And then open source people say, well, you can help me, you know, solution and help us fix the problem. So I sort of got into volunteering that way and became part of the community leadership team for several years. And this is an interesting, I think it is something that I can relate to because I went to my first Drupal camp in 2014 or something, 2013. And I did, I was not being welcomed in there. I wouldn't say that the people were unfriendly. But I was like, I had an idea. I wanted to talk to somebody. And then some women told me like that there was another person doing that already. And I said, just like, shut up. I almost went up crying and say like, this is mean community. Until actually I went to the next, I don't know why I was so stubborn, but I loved Drupal. So I went to my next event. And then I found the right people and they just took me around and showed me everything. So I was so happy that I actually did that. And the other story that I had around it in my computer science, I also cried after six months. I never cry, but I cried because I was the only woman there and I was just being told all the time, you don't know how to code. If you don't know how to code, you don't belong computer science. And I was like, that's where you learn the stuff. And with similar background of graduating with a pretty good degree in the end. So maybe we have to be a little bit more stubborn than others. And if you hit a wall, I would say, then maybe you have to discontinue if you are passionate about what you're doing, of course. But this has changed, luckily. So I hear this same story here. Is this like that, that women, do they have more walls in front of them than others in the industry? In our industry, do you feel that this is a... Is it still an issue that we have to work a little bit harder to get further? Opening up a question here. Does anybody want to take it? I'll start because I've already aged myself. I don't think anymore. But certainly when I started in my industry, when I started in technology, it was a choice, right? A woman had to make a choice between do they want to be a great individual contributor? Do they want to grow in leadership? Do they want to go in that, you know, the wheel of a corporate life? Or do they want to be a wife and a mother? And it was, you know, as a young woman in corporate America, my examples were women that made that choice. And, you know, even though nobody actually said it, but there was always kind of the undertone of, oh gosh, if you go on maternity leave, right? Like if you make that leap, what might that impact your career? I think the beauty of all of that, and the good news is that a lot of us persevered. I think that I was told no more often than I was ever told yes in my entire career. But something about our grit and being stubborn, I stuck it through. And there are enough of us now on the other side of that that are sure that women no longer have to make that choice. And with us, there are really amazing men, amazing allies that feel the same way. So, you know, in my personal opinion, I think that has really flipped, particularly in the last few years. And it's just incredible to be part of that journey. But still, and going into maybe asking you, Kat, still having a conversation with this group here before we came here, you know, even those who were here in states are still thinking sometimes, oh, why am I here? Like, you know, I don't belong here or something like that. And this is what I see very often as a pattern, is that I don't know if it's only intact, but somehow, you know, we are missing this, like, you know, of course you're supposed to be here in the states, you know, this so-called imposter syndrome. Is that true still? Like, do you feel the imposter syndrome sometimes, Kat? Oh, every day. Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's an interesting question because I'm not sure. I do agree with Lo. I think that things have definitely improved. I think that there are still challenges, but I feel certainly, I think part of my imposter syndrome, I feel the weight every single day when I sit in a leadership position that I represent something that is still a minority. And that means one tiny incorrect statement, one tiny misstep, could potentially negate everything, you know, that I'm trying to project, right? And so the imposter syndrome comes in with that, it's that self-doubt. And, yeah, also the, well, have I really, you know, have I really done anything that deserves to have, have I earned that leadership role? And my, you know, so it's definitely there, I think, every single day. And then maybe to you, Ruth, being a project lead in an open-source project, you know, I do not know very many women who are project leads. Are there any other women that are in an open-source project? Not as far as I know, no. So how is it to be the unicorn in leading an open-source project that is doing really well and growing? I mean, it's interesting because my first thoughts when there was the opportunity for me to step up as project lead, my first thought was, hell yeah, I can do that. My second thought was, I didn't come from a development background. The only PR I've ever made to Mortik was to update the Google Plus icon. How the hell can I lead a project? Like, if I don't have the ability to do the development work. But in a way, it's almost an advantage. Like, I do have the ability to learn and it has been an incredible steep learning curve over the last two years. And I'm immensely grateful to all of the people in the community who have helped me learn the things I needed to learn. But in a way, because I don't have the ability to go do all the things myself, I have to enable the community. I have to find ways to put in place workflows to bring more contributors in, to reach out to people and ask them to help with things because I can't just go in and do it myself. So in a way, it also prevents me from getting completely burned out because if I could do that, so it really means that the growth of the community, I have to sort of model the values I want to see in the community. I have to be reaching out to people to bring them in and help them start that journey to help us build this project and community. And I have to also develop my own skills alongside that so I can do some other things. I leave releases now and fix things that get broken in GitHub and make GitHub actions. I'd never have thought I'd be able to do that. I do have followed you both on Twitter and in the community. Thank you for coming to the Drupal events. Part of you also work for Acquia. Do you feel that you're being respected by the community and do you feel like did you have to earn that or did it just happen automatically because you had the passion? Or how was your journey where the others that are actually maybe experts in you're upgrading now to Symphony Symphony 5 like you said maybe you're not the expert in how that is all going to happen technically but how did you earn that respect by the others who were actually building that code? I think I had to be willing to say when I didn't know and be honest that I don't know. I had to learn from others but also a lot of it is winging it and learning as I go and pulling on people who do know and being really clear with people that they know I have the passion they know I get stuff done they know that I really care about Mortic and I think those are the things that people really see and that's what sets people out other people on fire that's what encourages other people to get involved. Yeah, I have felt really supported and Dries is my line manager so if I ever have any questions about it we're thinking of doing this being able to actually ask someone who's incredibly supportive and respectful what he thinks about that has been great and the fact that I'm a woman has never even facted into anything really for me being project lead. So you would say that in that sense he's your role model there among probably many others. Yeah, that's great to hear. So to that point you said that you have to be really honest you have to just actually say that's how you earn the respect of just also telling like when you don't know the things asking you Loli you've been in this business now and you've been working with a lot of engineers because you've been leading them do you feel different for women are they a little bit more honest about the things they don't know in comparison maybe to men or others in the industry have you had any experience of that? Yeah, I think that the traits of a good leader are universal I think that you're genderless and I think Ruth you hit it right humility, being genuine being authentic caring about the people that work with you for you alongside you are something that any good leader will do and in order for them to continue to be successful they kind of have to keep doing that now having said that do I think that women are better in certain traits versus in others I think so I will speak about myself I won't generalize our whole gender I'm a mother of three I have kids in every age and the patience and the love that I developed by becoming a mother and being my own personal skills has helped me become a better leader has helped me become more empathetic to other women that are also working and trying to make a career has made me empathetic to the men who have young children and have to stay home because they may have a sick kid at home because of the circumstances that my life had it's made it very easy for me to bring it to work and as a result of that being genuine and humble and being able to state things as they are has helped me tremendously my career and I thank you for bringing up the part of the family so Kat I know that you also have kids and I have kids as well and I have my sport hobby and I do all kinds of stuff and I get constantly asked like buddy how can you actually juggle all these things how can you be a CEO and a mom and do everything that you're doing and I sometimes ask back have you ever asked my husband that question the answer is normally no but they get a little bit you know embarrassed probably when I ask it but I constantly they are all questioning this how can I do it do you feel this pressure from everyone that you are a superwoman that you can do it all that you should be the perfect mom as well yes and you do you get that question a lot I don't know how you manage it especially if I do have a kid who is home sick I am lucky enough that canopy is fully remote so we all work from home and that means there are cats and dogs and kids on camera all the time it just comes with its own inherent chaos but especially when I have kids that are home sick or interrupting me on calls on screen I don't know how you manage it and to your point I don't do it alone I wouldn't be able to do it alone and I don't think my husband gets those questions he also wouldn't be able to do it alone the whole thing is a partnership but it also sometimes that question to me feeds into this idea of well if you're so dazzled then maybe this almost doesn't make sense but it's always there it's like well maybe I'm not doing it right maybe you just think I'm doing it right but really behind the scenes I know how much chaos there is and I'm dropping the ball on my personal life if my professional life is going fantastic or I haven't been to the gym in two weeks if the other two are okay you know so it's also it ends up feeling like I have to maintain this I have it all together facade on my own somehow through that question as well I'll add to that you know the one thing that I get asked that a lot um so I echo everything you said I'm married wonderful man he's my partner in crime we share the responsibility of everything but I know if I were to be very honest with myself you know I'm always on me right that like whether or not external forces do I do and then I wonder like how do you do it all and part of it is you're constantly guilty like there's this constant guilt of you there's something that is not happening that you feel like you should so the advice I typically say back is you just have to be really kind to yourself right like just practice being nice to yourself stop beating yourself up know that everything has time everything is a choice and don't regret those so some days you're going to spend a little bit more time in the gym and you're not going to read that email until two days later or sometimes you know you're going to go take a trip and that's that's okay and that's a choice but don't don't spend so much time kind of rehashing those choices and beating yourself up over it good advice thank you for that so I want to move us a little bit of the topic and what about you know you talked about it earlier that there has a lot changed so I think that we talked earlier about you both have been over 20 years in the industry Ruth you're a little bit newer you know you did your physio and your everything working on you know you did another degree before so if so much has changed in these 20 years in the past how is it you know are we seeing a fast change forward is it moving every day faster in the direction of like having more positions filled with more diverse groups are we seeing that continue or are we just now there where do you see that are we going to do even better in five years from now I think I will have a very different perspective so I'll share mine I'd love to hear what you ladies have to share you know in corporate America the answer is definitely yes there is such a focus on diversity, inclusion, and belonging no matter what organization you go to it is actually a metric it's a thing that people track in many of my previous employment you know if you were if you posted a position two of this and it was had to be blind the resumes coming in were blind so you didn't know there was no names on it there was always two out of three were diverse candidates and diversity means you know you can be black, you can be a woman you can be gay, you can be lesbian we look at diversity inclusively and that is a phenomenal thing that is honestly kind of a recent phenomenon so I do think that as long as we continue to pressure corporate America to do what they say they are to be inclusive we will see a lot of that tide shift because you know we're being held responsible for saying the things we say yeah I don't add to that because I think it is the the big shift I have seen is the intentional nature of the attempts to diversify the workforce to diversify leadership to bring in fresh perspectives it is now a it is a charge it is something that we are much more I see many people out there much more actively seeking out diverse candidates where they are not just the age old oh well I'm waiting for everything well those resumes don't come in well you need to go out and find those resumes and find those people to diversify your community and I'm seeing that intentionality a lot more which is really exciting which makes me think that five years from now it will be a very different space in a way that I think is extremely positive so I think we are on I don't think we are there yet but I'm definitely seeing momentum that I haven't seen in that direction before and what about Europe like in the UK is it the same in the UK as it is in Europe completely because you live in the UK but is it going the same direction there yeah I think it is I think it is slowly much the same as what you're saying like because people actually have to and they're expected to so there is that but I think I think open source is an area where we have to really think a bit more carefully because I don't feel like open source is moving as fast as it could do I look at the stats that Rhys does in the Drees notes where he talks about the gender breakdown of contributions and that's somewhere where I think we can make a difference in terms of trying to make contributions more sustainable encouraging the employers who do employ people other than men to enable those people to become contributors in open source instead of expecting people to have to do it in their spare time, their free time I think that's something that still needs to shift that more and more companies are taking that on board but only because there are benefits to them to do it like in the Drupal project in the Morte community we've set up a partners program where you have to practically contribute as well as financially contribute to be a partner we're trying to make it so that it's a bit more sustainable for companies to actually encourage contributors to get involved in open source on company time and I'm hoping that will help shift us to have more not men contributors in open source so one of the so that's a good point because one of the role models is a big thing and I come from Iceland and you can imagine how many women role models I have because that's just how my country is so I grew up reading the sagas where the women are the ones that are actually the ones that run the everything in the old stories and then in 1980 we had the first women president in the world so I was born in 1980 and for me I didn't even have I honestly for me this gender thing was for me very weird when I moved to Europe maybe from Iceland because for me it was like is this really a thing and understanding like much more today this is really a thing but having the role models is so important and for me there was Angie Byer she's a big role model for me in the Drupal community and that's one of the reasons also why I continued and then now in the CEO community Anna I look at you here there are these women that I look up to and it is so important for me to have that on the contrary we are still so much about the problems that we are having so sometimes I wonder are we talking too much about the problem that we forget to talk about the role models and therefore actually it's having an opposite effect that women are actually like I've heard so many bad stories about tack that I do not want to go into that industry instead of flipping it around and having like all these powerful women and that's why we are here today how do you see that like do we have enough let's just talk about the Drupal community do we have enough women role models in the Drupal community and if the answer is no because I think like maybe we have too few what can we do to change it how can we make a difference here I mean candidly the answer is no we don't have enough women role models in the Drupal community how do we how do we change it you know I think creating like you were saying that more welcoming space that encouraging space because a lot of one thing I heard up here that was kind of commonality was getting involved in the Drupal community especially you know I think in really any aspect but as a technologist as an engineer it's not necessarily you know historically hasn't always been the most welcoming space doing what we can do to encourage contributions to encourage involvement to elevate people to give them additional responsibilities to invite them into the community get them excited about the project and get them taking initiative is the way that we have to we have to help nurture and grow those leaders by doing what we're doing today by you know being something they can see by being out there and and representing and encouraging and helping people to grow their confidence in the space so thank you and I think that's in the directions maybe that's an advice to everyone here you know think about that aspect when you're going to be submitting a session for an event you know don't allow the little person who's telling you that you're not good enough to do it you know think about like hey I need to be a role model and show that we can do it too there may be one step forward there Loli do you have a role model a women role model it doesn't have to be intact or is there somebody that you're like you know this is who I want always to be come there are a lot of women I admire for sure my last my lately my big fascination in instagram has been to follow the sender brown and roslyn brewer they're the only two african-american CEOs in fortune 500 companies in the united states and I find their stories to be fascinating I mean their rise how they conduct themselves how they use their voice to move their passion their mission forward it's for the companies that they belong to or for social platforms like I just find that to be fascinating and it's something that I aspire to be right I really admire them so we have 15 minutes left and I actually want to start taking questions if possible if you have a question there is a mic there so please my name's kelly bell that's good it's on my name's kelly bell and I'm CTO of Gotham city and I just wanted to speak to this one thing because there's a university lambda u it's called something else now but they have a mentorship program for their new graduates and I've started mentoring through them and specifically young women and I was just going to bring up that that's actually kind of a cool thing to do too is to mentor young women who are coming into the coding community and of course you know get them involved in Drupal if you can but you know that's just another thing is that getting young women involved in coding is a good thing maybe we should just immediately register a buff and everybody who is interested in taking that forward even more thank you so I have a question for you all I am curious what would be your one big advice word of advice to both your past self and the future women in technology it looks like my microphone is the closest to my mouth so I'll start I think I would tell myself to stop double like stop second guessing just trust your instincts because you know had I just followed my instincts in the first place I could avoid it a ton of time and a lot of waste in my life so as women I think that's it right and maybe this is again applicable to everybody but just trusting your own instincts about your choices and decisions will save everybody a ton of time I think similarly my biggest piece of advice the thing I would have said to my to my younger self is be careful about the voices you choose to internalize because you can start to doubt you know if you spend enough time being told you're not technical enough being told you're not dedicated enough being told you're too business and not enough engineer you start to internalize those voices and then that turns into self doubt that you that just expands on itself so we all hear about how as children the voices that we grow up with we kind of internalize it's part of that regulating your regulating your emotions and sort of navigating society and all of that be careful as a professional the voices you choose to internalize and trust your own over anybody else's I think that would be the biggest one for me I think the fundamental thing is yes you are good enough would be a big thing for me that's just a massive thing that comes up so much in so many areas of my life also that I should have fought harder to do the things that I was really interested in I think I just gave up too quickly being told that's not what girls do and actually I would probably give myself the advice of dig your heels in and fight for that because things might have been quite different if I'd done that I agree I just have to agree with that I want to take one more question I want to take many more questions My name is Jasmine I work for Digital Services Georgia It's awesome to hear that you both have MIS degrees I do as well I was actually encouraged to take that path because I started college and I guess I'll age myself as well at the height of the last recession in 2008 so I was told there weren't going to be any jobs and so if I did want to increase my chances of getting one to go for MIS I think you know we all know that there's a lot of intersectionality in America especially and so I think even though I wasn't, this wasn't really my experience I've pretty much been a nerd my whole life I taught myself how to code websites when I was like 10 and so it's always been a path for me but I don't think that there are a lot of black women in this space and a lot of what we're met with is that if the qualifications are there we're totally qualified for the positions we're met with are you a culture fit that is a really big thing in tech when people are building these companies and building these startups they're like are you a culture fit and so a lot of what we find ourselves having to do is context switch or code switch and so I wanted to ask and what advice would you give to the rest of the group about having to deal with that I feel like you were a planted question I promise I was Nikolas is lucky to have you first and foremost I am also a Georgia peach I suffer from that tremendously so I didn't share earlier my parents are Taiwanese obviously but I was born and raised in Brazil in the early 70s so I was raised there I grew up there and then I came here to the United States and I am the first generation immigrant to the United States so imagine this a girl who's traditionally Asian being brought up in Brazil of all places so I very much identify as being a Brazilian South American girl in America so there's a lot of that of not being Asian enough to be Asian and I wasn't Brazilian enough to be Brazilian and certainly I'm not American enough to look American and I think what that taught me is that that adversity has actually made me stronger it's made me able to adapt very quickly to whomever I'm with it's also taught me a ton of sympathy and empathy because the truth is most of us have some form of diversity that may not be something that your eye can meet but we all have something and I was lucky enough that my diversity you know like you can see my diversity so as a result it's actually made me I don't know it made me a better mom made me a better person but it absolutely happens like you have to figure out how to stay genuine and grounded in who you are while still being able to connect with whomever you're working with so that's our next question let's jump to the next question Hey guys, my name is Nila Joshi today we talked about the imposter syndrome but I recently read a book called Lean In it's written by Sheryl Sandberg she's the CTO of Facebook and she mentioned something about TRR syndrome which is basically as a woman we think that if we do our jobs and if we are delivering results that somebody will take notice to it and they'll put a TRR on our head which is normally how it works and you know it doesn't work like that in corporate world what we lack is self advocacy like we don't advocate about ourselves right and if we try to do that it's often represented as being little bossy or you know things like that whereas men can do the same thing very calmly and nicely what suggestion would you give to all the women engineers who are trying to transition into more of a tech leadership roles like how do you advocate for yourself without being bossy that's a good question I think I want to go a little bit I would like to answer this one I would like to go a little bit into the what Ruth said earlier about not just trying to go there and say like hey I am I think part of it is to start to fit into that group and then start to learn the language and you start to lead automatically I felt a lot in anything that I've been doing is that I've always been or very often been one of very few women so it means that you're constantly there with a lot of often guys and the thing is it doesn't work for me to come in there and start polishing my nails and all this stuff but I have to a little bit start fitting into the group by socializing on the things that they are also interested in that is like the first thing I have to do I think that's what I've seen with all of my friends that are in these positions now is that you have to a little bit figure out a way how can I what do we have in common it doesn't have to be the football if you're not interested in football or soccer it's called sorry if you're not interested in soccer then you don't have to don't try to be that but figure out what it is that we are interested in very often it is through music so music very often connects all of us talking about different type of music and you start to adapt to the group like that and then you start to get the respect that you need it's a little bit about being yourself in how you are today so I don't know sometimes exactly like you said when women come in they tend to be said that they are bossy and I agree with that it's about being what is a good English word for it about being yourself authentic thank you you want to add to it I see yeah and this is maybe too tactical but for me another thing with engineering specifically is data talks so when I go into a conversation and there's different kinds of self advocacy there's advocacy that says hey I'm proving myself on the team here are the data points that speak to that and the first step in that is acknowledging that you are making a difference and owning those things and bringing those things to the light but what I do find is that actually keeping that internal log of hey these are pivotal moments where I have contributed something that has made a tangible difference and bringing those forward I have found that that approach is very quantifiable and that helps me in those conversations as opposed to it seeming like I'm just asserting an opinion I do think there is something to the and I have this strange unease about it and I say that because I spent a lot of my early career downplaying my appearance being one of the guys trying to figure out how to fit into that culture so that my skills and my contributions would be measured on that level playing field building those personal relationships is critically important but not at the expense of the authenticity so it's finding that very careful balance I like what you said too about sometimes I think we're shy about stating our intent so sometimes it's as good as practicing in the mirror and saying I want to be the whatever whatever that title is whatever it is the thing that means to you stated and then practice it and state it out loud and tell as many people as you can that is what you want to do period and you will very soon figure out what are the forces the people that could influence that who are going to be the people that are going to help you there who are the people that may be at the right time in the right table that's going to say oh gosh you really ought to think about you know her for whatever opportunity is but it really starts with us saying I want to be the CEO I want to be the CTO and really feeling comfortable stating that intention out loud yeah I think sort of building on what you said Kat for me it's also knowing what you need to be confident and be authentic so for some people that might be having the emotional support of a bunch of people behind you for me it's like research like knowing what having the confidence and going into a situation like if it's a salary negotiation or if it's a promotion discussion armed with all of the research for me that's what allows me to be like stand in my own spotlight have the confidence to say yes this is you know I am worthy of this but that might be very different for different people so although this is what we're saying it might be quite different for you so I think it's just like getting familiar with what helps you to be authentic stand in your own spotlight and when I take one two more questions we I think we have time for I want to give one more advice here because you said it women you those who are going into talks about your salaries and things please bring it up because I need to hire the salaries of almost all the women in my company because they don't ask for it but the guys are constantly on their back and we need to change that so if you are having a conversation soon and I hope that your employers not here not just okay bring it up worst case is going to be no you're not that you know like you're not at that level yet so try it out and also if you don't have if you're not confident in that I actually got some coaching to help me learn how to have that conversation and that did result in a significant increase in salary for me I've experienced this every day in my team and I'm so shocked sometimes but we can change that thank you for the lovely afternoon so I became a tech lead at a very early age in India and they were like very handful of developer girls in our company so I was then giving a very challenging role to lead a group of 12 people where most of them were the guys so it took me a hard time to make them understand that I do speak tech and then surpassing the challenge then there were few mistakes that I did and given the same people of really elderly people in the group who were tech leads in my organization they were heard more than me so I became very repulsive I was having anxiety those time I didn't know how to approach that I was given opportunity though but given the circumstances they were always at upper hand where I've seen that guys are more heard of so what would you suggest at such situations to me or any of us who are having such situations that's the last question you only have 30 seconds left who wants to take it? I can answer that in 30 seconds that was a great question I'll chime in a little bit I'm sure we can go a little over look I think the question is credibility how quickly do you build credibility and trust in an organization to me I do not try to out tech my team or out tech my peers my colleagues are all hired for a reason and I was hired for a reason and what I bring to the table is not supposed to out do the person in front of me and that was a reality that sank in for me which then I was like okay why was I hired and why am I here because I'm really good at these 10 things and I'm going to be fantastic at those things and with that my team will come with me my peers will come with me because it's not like it's a race to the finish line and it doesn't have to be that's my opinion and that was a great last advice because we have it on the screen here time is up it's even red so we need to finish thank you everyone for coming feel free all week to ask those questions you're going to find Ruth in the aquia booth once in a while or in the sprint room doing some code and Maltec right Cath is going to be a canopy both Loli you're going to be around come and ask the questions in person and thank you so much for coming all of you