 So I try to recall as often as possible how many good things are going on in the world that are not reported on in the media in the news, and that's sort of how I keep my balance when I'm overwhelmed by all the bad news that I see in the media. Yeah. Also, how are you as a different question then what is your assessment of what's going on in the world. So, that was a joke. I have a very dear friend, Ken, who, whenever I ask her how she's doing the answer depends on the New York Times headlines that morning. Oh man. She's buffeted up and down and up and down by you know other circumstances in herself and so the difference is you know where's our center. How do we stand in the face of this how do we breathe and move and you know and you know, take all that in without being chained to the whipsaw. What I think the main reason people ask the question how are you is to make sure the person they're talking to both as alive as speaks English. Mostly it's a ritualistic thing we have that we do that that is mostly people don't want to detail the answer to it mostly right. But very long ago, in some group discussion. It was pointed out that if you answered the questions sincerely it would lead to interesting places. So when so after that for a while when I hit how are you I was like, well, let's talk about that. I'd like to pick up on Ken's view that the way to stay balanced is by looking around for good things that are going on. I have a different approach which is to say look what's going on is natural. It just needs to be understood. And don't let the fact that it's bad stuff happens anyway we're human we're going to die. So it's a, and it probably comes from my having spent so much time in physics. Let's look at things the way they are, and that has the greatest dignity and actually the greatest stuttering. Or maybe you're just a stoic through and through or some other philosophical stance that is exactly sort of what you just said and, and that's what some people adopt right. Yep. It's just big in the valley it's gotten quite a boom. A Gil where you're going to jump in. Yeah, just to what you what you just said last it's gotten a big boom because it's very useful for particular, you know, way of operating the world but I think to what said, you know, we're always making a choice of what to pay attention to. Selecting out of the, out of the wide swath of everything and that's a personal choice to make about whether to be optimistic pessimistic realistic stoic or whatever. You know, do I wake up and get absorbed in the, you know, in the analysis of the odds of us China war, or do I wake up and go out and attend the flowers in my garden. That's the first thing that I would do. Under stoicism I've got stoicism is the best safety net for emotional free fall says Tim Ferriss. This article. And I'm unclear that I'm of that persuasion that I that I necessarily feel that way, but, but it's certainly another piece of stoicism that I have is that Silicon Valley is obsessed with stoicism. And there's just the stowa is a very popular podcast and etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I don't have a lot of stories. Do you have Byron Katie in here. Of course. Yeah. Because I mean her, her stance is like it sounds similar to what Doug was saying, which is that the root of suffering is denying what is. Well, her saying that suffering is optional. It's one of my favorite sayings out there. She's not the only one to say that, by the way. Oh, of course, of course. The Buddha say pain is inevitable suffering is option. That would be this one right here. There you go. I have a great I have a great and antidote is somewhere around the 1990s I was really in a bad place for a while, and a friend of mine was a car salesman. And he said, you know, in the new models Stuart in the 1991 models suffering is no longer an option. Oh, wow. That was really good. I hope you bought one. No, it didn't help. That's very funny. Great pleasure to see you all I'm just wondering where the feminine presence of GM has gone. But, but Stuart you had proposed the topic on the GM list a moment ago and today is a topic quest. So, I'm slightly intended toward Jack and Mark on one, who run the topic quest foundation. But did you want to talk a little bit about the topic. I mean, I think the topic is a good one but I couldn't think of any place or any example right now. The only thing that popped up was, you know, my own learning, you know, which was do what you can where you are with what you have. You know, the little small incremental things that we might do each day. And in terms of the world around us but also I think in terms of the presence that we bring to the world, you know, to just try and and and and be a little bit of a, an island of sanity, you know, in the context of things that are just really challenging if you're paying attention challenging unknown. It's funny, I'm going to find myself drifting into the opposite but I'm not going to. But I think that's that that's the place to start in some ways. You know the presence that we can that each one of us has the capacity to bring to the world in the face of all the calamitous things that are going on. And then some in some ways, it all starts there. You know, we forget that, you know, our plans get to be, you know, a little bit more grandiose than we'd like to think in terms of how can we fix it all. But it all starts with the presence that we that each one of us can bring to the world every day. I'll start with that. Yeah, part of the stoic philosophy is to leave alone the things that you can impact and deal with the ones you can. It's always struck me that in fact, the border between the two of them is not fixed. And we keep pushing into what we can't control and try and make it something that we can have an effect on. And that's the drama of life is right at that border and the stoic philosophy tends to exclude that possibility. There's also this sort of notion of we are like gods now, and we better better learn to act that way that we are able to manipulate and do things far greater than we thought before etc etc. Which cuts right in there. Yeah, I actually found an example, Stuart for for some a capacity out there that I was completely unaware of and then preparing for these webinars always poses you to take a deep dive into topics you're really unfamiliar with and what I learned. I have this webinar this afternoon is that there is an there is an institution in the US that's called the soil and voter conservation districts that I was sort of marginally aware of but never really fully understood what that is. So, under Roosevelt in the 1930s, you have the dust bowl and the degradation of soil in the United States was just phenomenal at that time I didn't realize how bad that really got. 70% of us farmland was degraded seriously degraded right better top so it would just blow off. So they formed the soil and voter conservation districts, which worked at current level with farmers to translate science centralized science into community into where farmers were being informed and directed on methods that would have to use to restore their soil back to us. So today, there's 3000 offices of soil and voter conservation districts, which are directly in the community and the power of this thing is that often most often it's what its staff is volunteers who are working in the community who know everybody. So you have this relationship this relational trust that is so important for farmers. So then my question would be, you have all these carbon offset schemes and companies that are working to finance things and so on. And the question is how do you scale anything like this right I mean how do you in a country the size of the United States and even on the global level how do you scale dealing with millions of farmers who need to need to go to adaptation and change practices how do you allocate money efficiently to farm operations. And here you have a network that's in place that could scale to really short notice. But it's not even I mean even for me having, having been in this space for years now have not been fully aware of this. So there is this manic attempt by corporate structures to avoid government by all means at all costs. So, so they don't, they don't care what the capacity is out there they just don't want to deal with it because that would force science into the process. Now, and science for forcing science into the process is an inconvenient issue at this point because it means you have to change your models at a massive scale, because you have to change the entire supply chain to accommodate farmers shifting into these regenerative practices. So that was just like that sort of one, it's out there, you know, they are we have we have institutional wisdom in this country because we've come through some really bad times. And I believe when you say so the Roosevelt era, and the post world war two era, and the all the, all the protections and mechanics that came out of fixing this collapse that we experienced to put us back together but now, you know, we mocked it back up and lost our institutional man. Julian I'm going to mute you for a second. We tend also to forget a lot of big important lessons and then we tend to be really reluctant to go back and pop open the lid on ugly stuff that that a lesson that we needed to learn or that we are busy not learning or something like that we're very much Some of that is about hey forget the past let's just look forward and make it better kind of attitude some of it is defensive mechanisms against trauma and other sorts of things I don't know. If I could just add to class where class was saying, I was in the Smoky Mountains last weekend, and a great Smoky Mountain National Park and there's a big plaque, you know, built by CCC in the 19 in the 1930s. You know, we forget, we forget that and the huge effort that was taken in that moment in time, and all that was created out of it sorry Gil. It's okay Stuart so also the fastest point to the whole political action to create the soil conservation service etc only happened once the skies in Washington DC were darkened by dust from Nebraska. Exactly. Theoretical until it impacted them personally which may be what generates climate action here to the to the plaque. I'm reminded to people know Greg Bracken from UC Berkeley geographer has a phenomenal presentation and slideshow about the impact of the Roosevelt era and when I saw it, I grew up in New York City and I realized watching this that the entire landscape of the city that I took for granted. The bridges, parks, the tunnels, the library so all the stuff was not all of it but enormous amount of that stuff was built in the 1930s in the middle of the Great Depression when there was quote no money. But there was public will to transform the landscape of the country. Can you share some links about Bracken I don't know him or have him. Give me give me a minute I'll get some in there. Yeah, thank you. And, and, and in China the same thing happened to Beijing. There's started to darken because of dust coming off the Los Plateau. And there's a really nice documentary I put a link to in the chat about the re greening of the Los Plateau. And I think I told the story briefly a while ago. And it was that I had watched a video of Paul's talking about upward spiral and how he was busy healing some hillsides in the middle of California. And then a couple months later I stumbled into this documentary about the Los Plateau Los is LESS. It's, it's very friable loose soil but it's very fertile soil but it dusts up and blows away pretty easily. And there's there was an area the size of Belgium in the middle of China that was blowing away and one at the beginning of the documentary which spans a decade. The hills are brown kids are sort of walking to school but people are leaving people are migrating away from this area which no longer can support humans. And then they start doing at a civilizational government organizational scale what Paul Crafal was doing single handedly in the hillsides, which is they start digging terraces into the hillsides planting trees on the hillsides doing a whole bunch of things for water catchment up high on the hill, etc, etc, and a decade later the place is green. And at the end of the documentary there's a woman who farms apples she says, you know, a decade ago I made like 600 you on a year and now I'm 60,000 you on a year from my apples this is great. And I don't, I don't know what's happened since, but it took it took basically not being able to breathe in Beijing I think, for that to become an important thing for governments. But I wanted to head back also toward governments occasionally do really smart things. And I keep going back to the folk schools that were across northern Europe and mostly in Scandinavia. And they were started I think at the turn of the 20th century, and lasted quite a while and then we're gotten rid of but but a third of the populations of the northern European countries went through the folk schools which kind of taught civic life, and the responsibility and things like that, which turned into a culture of mutual responsibility. So, I don't know that Losos World Bank David, Dave, I think it was, I think it was in fact a provincial project but I'm not sure. I think it might have been and I think Ted Lou is there because he was documenting World Bank stuff. Interesting. Yeah, so lessons from the Los Plateau is the video, and it is john Lou. And, and john's trying to start some new organization too. Yeah, in the list of possibilities. Thank you. Can I jump in Jerry. Oh yeah, Marshall. You know, I take heart in something that Adrian Marie Brown says in in her book holding change about facilitation, where she says that organizational change can be best facilitated by taking every opportunity to make explicit when an organization acts in support of its aspirational values, and, and then pointing out when it falls short of that. And it's just a matter of repeating that, you know, at every opportunity to build momentum through small changes. Adrian Marie Brown incidentally had a great interview on the stove. I guess they're, but between, you know, many small changes compounding and looking also for nonlinear exponential impact feedback loops. It feels like there's, there are strategies available to us and an overwhelming amount of good news and opportunities. I, I hunt for good news for a couple of different outlets, each week and on climate exponential view, and then lately I've been writing a, that's large scale stuff and then I've been writing a small scale newsletter stuff for the UN adaptation division for the past few weeks, that I'm super excited about as well and it, it takes, it takes me and a teammate hours every week to dig through just an overwhelming amount of good news and try to figure out which of this has the, has the best potential for outsized impact, but it's, it's not a shortage of good news in my mind that's a, it's a challenge of orchestrating it together and and overcoming the probably even larger amount of bad news. That's Marshall. What is the habit of looking for good news done for you. That's, or to you. Oh, it's made me want to be all the more strategic about projects that I've put my time and energy towards. It has, it's probably cheered me up. For sure. I mean, I was born on Columbus Day on the Bicentennial of America. So I've had a chip on my shoulder about the greatest imperial power in history, you know, for 45 years, more or less. But scanning for good news every day. Yeah, certainly, certainly helps me look forward to where I want the bike to go, instead of looking towards the disasters. Yeah, and I think I think I can easily say that one of the one of the nice things about OGMers is that I think all of us are working to bend the long arc of history toward justice and toward thriving for humans and those kinds of things. And we're all, we're all trying to figure out our own little mental models for how that works. Like where do you put your energy where do you where do you, what levers do we get to use. Where do we cast our energies in order to do to have some effect on that process. I think our mental models are wide and varied. And then we started this call with something more toward coping models, which is, you know, how do you how do you manage that. Dave then Stuart. Yeah, well I guess I was, and this is partly provoked because of the stuff about lives in the World Bank. But I'm wondering if maybe we are, we need to look beyond looking for a great organization is a little bit like looking for a heroic person right. We're going to have some screw ups everybody's gonna have some good things. And so we need to, we need if we're going to mature to be able to recognize both. Right and we have to forgive and we have to congratulate and we have to you know I think we have to get a little more sophisticated. And I think organizations are probably that way I mean the World Bank has done some amazing things. There's great work that's happened because of the World Bank, and there's atrocious work that's happening because of the World Bank right, and you have to somehow I think separate the stuff out. I don't know somebody was, somebody was asking about like what are some regenerative companies. And it's like, I don't know, I don't know if there's any company that's like quote regenerative, but I think there are companies that have components that are regenerative. Right, and so I think we have to look at the components or the, you know, some of the pieces running like, I'm going to try to argue that like Google's, you know, office stuff and Google Docs and all the services they provide you. That's flow that's like enabling regeneration, you know, I don't know, I don't know what the advertising stuff does that's a different problem right, but there are pieces of Google that I think are fairly kind of regenerative. I'm going to try to argue that anyway. But I kind of wonder how much, how, how do we go about breaking these things into pieces and seeing, you know, seeing seeing the good and the bad or something. And I'm cheating a little bit because I'm just showing organizations building a regenerative economy but most of these are not corporations making or serving stuff. Most of these organizations focused on bringing about that regenerative economy so it's a little bit of a cheat but but there are a bunch of a bunch of orgs, including yours focused on this. Stuart. Yeah, I also wanted to add the perspective that. This many years ago that in terms of our own individual spiritual development that this plane of existence this material plane that we live on. It's the only plane where you can have the experience of bodily feelings of rage and and disgust and disappointment. Here is where we get to feel when we're in a body, as opposed to being in some transcendent spiritual place. Just a little piece of perspective. It's not saying, you know, don't do anything to make things better because we're all here I think to do whatever you know we're driven to as a sense of personal mission, but it's just a larger perspective. Thank you. So where do we take this. What, what class, you have a thought. You're muted class. It was a first time on zoom understood. Okay, thank you. You know, looking for my immense this morning and I see love lock died right and the guy a theory popped up again and I remember when I first read the guy a theory that was, you know, maybe five, six years ago, so that I came across that. And it just seemed to be so intuitively logical right that this is how the world works because life originates in the soil, right and then you have from there, the course of plans, and you have the the entire animal life that basically develops to the microorganisms inside to soil, but then these are these products and create oxygen for example right I mean the entire atmosphere is organic. So how can you cut down all these trees forests worldwide and kill off the oceans. And so on without expecting that somehow maybe we could be running out of oxygen. So when you, when you understand the intimacy of the complexity of this life that has formed over four billion years and that we completely depend on, even so we are so divorced that we don't recognize it anymore. It sounds pretty scary and then I noticed that love lock made the prediction that we have something like 20 years left before the, this this complex life of form of life will break apart in its current formation and have to reconstitute itself somehow to maintain conditions for life but that may not include us anymore because, for example, maybe there is no more at that point. So the, the, the, we're still struggling to understand the enormity of damage we're doing to this planet on a global scale, we're still struggling with it there's still, you still have Ted Cruz out there talking about what is the proven science. And, and, and you think that the time is shrinking, you know, to really make an impact so you would basically need something like happened in the 1930s, you know, where you have this, this huge undertaking of, of, of intervening of and to make any difference at all and with every growing season that passes, or chances exponentially diminish. So, so that's just, and yeah, it's just one of those depressing thoughts you wake up with. Indeed. You can shift us toward the question Marshall just put in the chat and ask him to maybe take us into it by riffing on it for a moment. Okay well this is in response to the first question that story put up and for a long time I've been very impressed by the fact that people do not have an image of where we might go as a livable future, not just the technology but the day to day life of people. I came up with the idea of putting food and habitat in the same place so that you walk out your front door and there's the garden. And such a world is a place that's kind to children because they can just go outside and play. It's kind to to older people because they can sit under the shade of trees. But the idea that I've called called it garden world. And it's an outlier, but we need to have I need to have an image of where efforts are taking us. That's livable. So people can see how they could get out of their leaky canoe into something else. Because saying in the leaky canoe if there's not an alternative is not crazy. It's not mostly called denial by ordinary people I think is not denial. I think it's just a failure of us to provide an imagination of what a future could look like that's worth working for. So anyway, garden world is my modest attempt to try and lay out that image and the politics that might get us there. Thanks Doug. I'll put a link in the chat again. Perfect. Gil did you want to add in here because I wanted to shift over toward Marshall's question. Yeah, if I couldn't maybe it feeds into that too I really applaud it. I really applaud what Doug is saying I applaud garden world. And this sort of thing has been a thread through all of my work going back to Institute for local self reliance in the 70s is highlighting things that already existing they're already working. The building used to say that existence is proof of the possible. And so in the midst of the kind of stuff that the mainstream media covers. Many folks have highlighted the kinds of, you know, small experimental creative initiatives john Lou was mentioned before as one garden world is another. There's a flowering of innovation around the kind of garden world communities always talking about all over the world. They don't make the front page of the New York Times. They're not on the nightly news, but they're there and they're, you know, moving forward and pioneering techniques and relationships and political approaches and non political approaches. So, you know, the examples are there and I think one of the challenges is how do we make them more visible, and more tangible to people because when people touch them and experience them with their bodies. When people work on paper think this change or remember early examples of people walking into, you know, a lead platinum building for the first time, and your body feels different. If you work there, you feel there know the air is different the light is different the way people move is different experienced in the body. One example example when I was at Oxford appropriate technology in the governor's office. Long time ago we ran a medicine show around the state of California with examples of renewable tech. And really notable was that people would look at the hot in the solar hot water heaters on the roof of this trailer. This is before PDDs were common. It works and so forth but what happened when you open the tap and someone could put their hand under the tap and feel the hot water. Even physicists would light up like children with the light at the realization tactily of something different. So this is a long way to echo what Doug is saying that you know that that that generating but also highlighting these examples of the, you know, the other world is here right now. The doctor is already here on evenly distributed. That's both good and bad and part of our job is to highlight the things that are going to appeal to the people and bring people into motion about the world we live. Thanks skill. Mr Kirk Patrick, you've got the floor. That was beautiful and inspiring from Gil, and it makes me want to add a little bit to what I was thinking by that question of what affordances of an open global mind would be most strategic in support of all of these beneficial projects and the earth. And, and that's to bring in an element of embodiment from from Gil, but I do think that there's no shortage of exciting nodes in the network. And I think that that one of the, it would make sense to me as a foundational touch point to keep coming back to the question of how can we build and highlight the edges that connect the nodes so that I mean that that feels like a unique value proposition for this conversation in this group and where where it's at. What is it in terms of thinking about those that interconnectivity and the open global mind that that can bring a unique contribution of of energy to those movements, and at the same time, the dark side the downside perhaps of over emphasis on the, you know, like mind map like focus on interconnectivity is that there's a risk of I know for me of being so awestruck by the, the cerebral beauty of these ideas and their interconnectivity that we lose touch with the embodied direct lived experience of each of them individually. And so, digging into both the affordances of the modality and keeping one eye on groundedness in the body and lived experience feels like, like it could be to two good sides of a coin to come back to again and again, as we talk about these questions and the examples that come up in response to them. Marshall, thank you that's a really lovely place this to begin the conversation. I wanted to ask you to if you would to refine a little bit what you mean about bringing highlighting edges that connect the nose. So we can pull that closer to what we think, but also I wanted to mention that it's been, it's been a part of OGM for a long time that putting up nice logical diagrams with maybe impeccable logic and irrefutable evidence is useless if there's no trust if there's no connection if there's no sense of community or oneness. And Charles blast mentioned long ago and I, and I bought open global heart.com or.org I think calm as a compliment to open global mind, and haven't done much with it. I'm happy to let anybody who wants to go play on the website and do whatever but but trying to say that that so much of this is about our presence our felt experienced sharing our felt experienced with other people. I'm a big believer that one of the largest motivators or levers of social changes someone who's sort of like you, taking you by the hand to try something new that that that just changes a whole lot of people because it a whole bunch of new changes that get caused by that act, repeated over and over and over again at very tiny scale, all around the world. And that's what builds communities that's what restores habitat that's what calls people out of cults that's what you know it's like just a follow me and try this really cool is a great thing. There we go open global got can propose is I think that's a good compliment here so that so that our second brains which are actually in charge of the show can be can be tended as well. I'd like to cut in here with the thought about nodes. And this is pretty theoretical, but the idea of the node implies a point that's very dense with information. And we try and attack it with logic. Instead of nodes, what if they are smears that the information and our feelings about them are spread out both the links and the nodes are really smears. And that suggests that the way to deal with them is not with direct penetration, but by resonating in a more artistic and philosophical way. So the idea that the nodes probably supports a hard logical approach to what are really more emotional problems. It makes me think about, I believe freedom Capra says that everything is so connected to everything so characterized by networks nested inside of networks that it's, it's a miracle that we're able to really find any working knowledge around any, any given phenomenon, given the blur of connectivity between all things. That's a great quote. I'd love to look at that. And, and, and it's funny because I'm trying to operate at different levels of zoom and different levels of fact and emotion. Maybe this is polarity management in a sense but tools don't support it. So polarity management says hey when things look really binary what those really are is extremes to work into how you manage an issue so so a productive way is to actually go back and forth between the polls between the extremes so you're satisfying both and getting the benefit out of both. And here tools tend to be one thing or the other so if all of our data were suddenly to become smears. I think that that would weaken logical argument because you can't make logical arguments out of smears. It's an impressionist way to present pieces of argument. And I think storytelling is that I think I think that storytelling is, is in fact a way of creating smears of emotion across things that are happening in the landscape. Then, and a tool that would lend itself to doing those different kinds of things together might be really powerful. But our tools tend to be single purpose single mode single level of zoom single lots of everything that we don't have transformer tool, kind of tools, or and we don't have composable tools that let us come in to the same set of bits of information, and treat them in sort of novel interesting ways and I'll add one more thing to that which is, I kind of want this hold everything, you know, for anybody who watched Dick Tracy back in the day, you know, Joe Joe just who could say hold everything and everything would freeze around him. But then you could inspect a claim made or a piece of a story, and you could unpack it and you could go go read, you know read the background and you could go figure out what it is. And that story was amenable to that if the story was connected to the backgrounds or the things that it's building on. And then, as Marshall just said quoting Fritchoff, like everything is so deeply inter twingled and me sort of quoting Ted Nelson that this inter twingularity and at some point I used to own the inter twingularity calm but I got rid of it. And that was good but I didn't do it. I didn't do a thing with it. Because that seemed like an answer to the singularity. But but in my mind when you can flexify and take apart the component parts you can talk about some local zone in a satisfying way it's not overwhelming as a big ball of thread and twine. It's actually satisfying to do and you can sort of, you know, keep keep chopping away at it that way. Yeah, so perfect segue in some sense. Schmackenberger talks about our capacity to. My language is probably not correct. We've changed the algorithms of where some of the main social media platforms are driving us and and to change the values that are somehow embedded to do some of the things we're talking about. I mean right now as we all know, there's a lot of there's a lot of sniping in social media. And how can we how can we tweak those in some ways to actually kind of create more groundedness of the kind of mindsets and thinking that will get us all to a different place. And I have no idea how to do that. But I just thought I was struck by his saying that that could have a huge impact. Thanks to Doug B. Yeah, I the whole the sort of three references to nodes edges networks and Doug's Doug's smear, which each time each time it was invoked I was back in H&H bagels. Of course. But one of the fundamental under, you know, sort of dualities of that is separation. Versus connection. And there's the one end of the curve everything is connected to everything everything is part of a whole. And the other extreme is the disaggregated fragmented sort of grounding and centering in separation. There was a posting about a physicist. He had sort of upended the vision and concept of the, the, you know, thermodynamic law mapping to spread and disorganization and disarray. What he had in fact uncovered was that out of out of emergence. And entropy actually emerges order. And depending upon the, the geometric shape of the particles. And that unbelievably complex dense arrays of particles would actually end up ordering themselves in staggeringly concrete and and coherent ways. And so I, I think I keep coming back coming back to sort of the fundament, which is, if, if there's a different result desired, how do we orient differently to the question. How do we do us differently. And somehow in that, I don't think there's a way of getting to what that different version is getting to the other side of us. Unless unless and until we can stop being in the busyness and the doing this that in the way we're currently doing it. We create the space and the room and the, and the context, not for purposes of getting to a kumbaya or, you know, an individual transcendence independent and disconnected from a practical. How do we do this, how do we fix this, how do we change this. It's, how do we do us differently create the space and the moment in the experimental opportunity to experience and be in a different place orientation in relation to inquiry. In relation to the question, what is needed. And it's, it's, it's, you know, the guy chopping down the tree. How is it possible to stop chopping, you know, and then figure out how we sharpen us as the axe. And I haven't been, you know, I've, I've sought it, I haven't been successful yet and finding a robust array of folks to go there. It's not the level of commitment and urgency, but I think it's the only way we're going to get to not, not how to fix it or solve it. But at this point, I think the biggest call to action challenge and question is, what's needed first, foremost at the top of the pyramid. What is the biggest bang for the buck in terms of transformational shift of us as the agency of our own dystopic demise by our own hand. What's, what's first. And that question for me, because it's sort of like, if we're not starting at the beginning of the book in terms of the most effective intervention or construction or project or undertaking or thing to do. Then it's, it's sort of playing the same old forward and we don't get any closer to saving ourselves. So I'm unclear there is a most effective intervention I'm unclear that there is a top to this problem. So what you're saying is puzzling me and I'm wondering what your answers are to it. Well, honestly, I don't know that there is a that either. You're just, you just sort of said there is and if we don't do that we're really fucking up. Well, it's more the inquiry of, you know, from a present moment right now what's needed place, and a concentration of, of attention of resource of energy, and, and, and to that, like, what's it. And right now, it's, it's a miasma, it's sort of this disaggregated massively complex and massively diverse and very unintegrated array. And it's not any of that is invalid or not materially critically valuable important intrinsic in terms of the pieces of the elephant. But is there are there things like we don't know what is the greatest need in this moment that would map to the greatest impact with speed and speed and, and, and shifting large scale fast. On a human being level on a consciousness level is really sort of important, because otherwise we're off the cliff, like how people are doing what they're doing how they're relating, you know, and all of the alarms and all of the data and all of the stuff has been out there for 2030 years, but what's going to move the dial in people's heads and hearts to mobilize. And that's never been more disaggregated fragmented alienated and, and, and invalidated with with all the fear and hatred and stuff that's going on right now. So, in that realm there's something needed that isn't like is isn't being focused on. And, and I don't have an answer I don't have an yeah I'm not attached to, you know, anything, but I'd love a group of people in a Manhattan project kind of energy to come together to say what's, you know, what's most needed right now that like maybe nobody is even gone on the radar. So if somebody gave me a genie's jug or a magic button that that would convert would convert things my one of my first answers would be I would love for every human to suddenly have a far deeper understanding of our interdependence and interconnection. Because then we would realize that when we hurt one of us we heard all of us there's a whole bunch of things that I think spill out of that. And I have no idea how to drive that. I mean, we've joked on calls previously here. We should invent a religion like El Ron Hubbard did for Scientology, and maybe, maybe some and I own food bar ism.com, which is a placeholder religion because food bar is a placeholder file name. And so if anybody wants to invent a religion to go, you know, forced on people that would that would cause us to understand our deep interconnectedness I'm on board I'd love to do that, but I don't know that that's the top of anything I think that's just one little arrow flung toward the great my asthma of things that were kind of in Barry and Stuart. I'll nominate what I think I would put at the top of the list for what's needed. And what I think it is needed is insight in my career at the early part of my career. I was recruited to tackle hard problems, but they were tractable problems that there was a reasonable chance that if we put our effort into it we would figure out how to solve them. And I want to point where we have problems that mirrors I can tell are intractable we have no clue even how to begin to think about them or how to solve them. But getting back to the point of insight. Jerry uses the term mental models. Whenever I could see my way through the confusion and through the fog to devise a proposed solution to a challenging problem. I was having a reliable system model. I would have to construct a system model, almost from scratch, because we didn't have one, and then validate the model and then solve the model for best practices. And that's where the inside emerged the inside emerges out of having reliable scientific or system models that explain how things operate in the world around us, and then using that knowledge to compute the solution for a reliable best practices to solve the problem so that's my nomination. We need insight and to get it we need to do research. We need to spend time doing research to understand the dynamics of these complex systems that are running out of control. There are multiple candidates systems models, Scott mooring who is frequently in this group is a student of the Cabrera's who have this model called DSRP, which I find interesting but I don't know how to operationalize I and I've not taken their courses I don't know the work. I think Linda oh yang has a different model that is very DSRP ish, and might be a good organizational structure, but we don't use these things and I don't know of any tools that enforce their use, and I don't know how to go about using them to process the incredible torrent of information that's out there so I'm I'm interested but I haven't, I haven't been able to find the stepping stones that get me to use these things as a matter of habit and course very. And so, so anyone who can who can bring that in to a group that's interested and make it use more useful and tractable I think that's a big win. Which model which model because there's dozens I just posted a link to my brain, useful thinking frameworks and mental models, you will see that is a gigantic neighborhood. That is a really big neighborhood and I love that thought it's kind of it's overwhelming and fun and I think full of really useful links underneath. And it's linked to things like the OODA loop and you know, Don Alamedo's principles for you know leverage in the system and all those things are thinking frameworks right pace layering Stuart brand, you name it. Stuart then Doug C. Yeah, so I'm going to go back to this theme of individual action. When I wrote a second edition to the book getting to resolution. The last chapter was how life would be different. If you adopted the models in this book. And I thought geez I need to change this story to make it more global because I wanted to have a greater global impact. But when I thought about it a little bit I said no, it'll really all starts with the individual, no matter where we are. Somehow this concept of wokeness, wokeness, or being awakened has gotten such a terrible connotation in the press. But at some level we all need to just, you know, or more people need to just wake up and realize that life as it exists is not going to go on. I sit at a restaurant sometimes and I'll just look around me, and I'll scratch my head and I'll go, geez, I wish people had some understanding of where we're headed if we keep on living in this way. Everybody on this call gets up in the morning. And, you know, we all go out and tilted tilted windmills for eight or 10 or 12 hours a day, trying to be the best piece of contribution we can, you know, Peter block says the answer to how is yes. So, you know, you just need to start someplace and keep on that path and I think, I think, you know, Barry Barry's wisdom was, you need a mental model of where you're going some framework, in which to hang your hand on context of what you're doing every day. But I agree with somebody said, you know, I think it was you Jerry can't think of a grand plan. I think of that one thing, probably because there is no one thing. There are all of these little things that in some ways, you know, add up to making a difference. And maybe it'll all explode anyway, no matter what we do. But, you know, let's, let's kind of be okay with that in the sense of having a mindset that we're out there tilting at windmills and, and, and it's going to make a difference. Thank you. Yeah. Doug see then class. The projects that we work on, we would like to have succeed. So we create relationships and efforts and all that. But that creates a glue that keeps society where it is. Maybe what we really need is for thing and I'm looking at this from a kind of physics point of view. What we really need is things to fall apart, create some entropy before they can reorganize in a new pattern and our efforts to hold on our counterproductive. I don't know how to negotiate that world because I think somehow we need a strategy that's both letting go and holding on to some things. We don't need things to fall apart things are going to fall apart just fine on their own. I think part of the problem with society right now is the amount of holding on whether it's corporations governments projects. I mean if you just got a grant from the National Science Foundation to do something for three years. Your basic view is, don't talk to me about changing till my grant is over. We're holding on. And I'm just saying for a really tough point of view. Maybe that the sandcastle has to fall apart before it can be reconstituted. It's like activism is a lifestyle business so is saving the world become Klaus and then grace please, if you will. Yeah, I mean I'm coming back to hierarchy. It seems to be such a difficult concept but what don't know the metals basically proposes is that that narrative tribes like software, you know, our way to interpret the world around us and how we respond to stimuli around us. It has to be hierarchical. So let's just come back to this practical example of Roosevelt, you know, creating all kinds of government programs to intervene at a club at a national level at this point. So for example that you know 70% of farmland was degraded seriously degraded and know we could have no one out of food. And so here was a meta intervention right top down intervention. That doesn't really work right so they created and also then created this network of in the community soil and water conservation districts, which connected the business meta inside but then interpreted it down to the local level where you needed adaptations that were clearly different in Florida than they were in California in Kansas right. And there were core principles at meta level that had to be that that that we're looking for very specific outcomes in this case soil restoration soil health, but that that needed local interpretations and adaptation. The toolbox was being provided at meta level for the very democratic implementation at local level. So narrative really drives us. And the problem right now is we can decree a narrative because you have people working within silos, you have now Walmart here in Kroger there and PepsiCo over here and they all have investments ideas and they all know what they need to do to maintain their business model without any consideration really about the externalities they're creating by solving a part of the problem now which sub optimizes the system and all this stuff. So I know that the fight really is in narrative and when you look at the information was going on out there you know that's where it is right because I mean, narrative has become weaponized. And so, you know, you have interventions into what people come to believe and what they come to understand about the reality of the world around them, making them act in ways that are actually self destructive. So unless we can win this information war to to agree on a common concept of here's the trouble we're in, we can't act. And that's really the, the, the frustrating part that the elites who are making these decisions are so far divorced from on the ground reality that they can process what what what the situation is that we're in. So it was like, right with you until you said unless we agree on the story, because I because I'm unclear we all need to agree on a story in order to get moving. And I don't think we'll ever be able to all agree on a story in fact half the population seems to be saying hey your story is bullshit my story is real. And that doesn't really work. There might be an aggregation of stories. Maybe that's the collective noun of stories, I don't know. But, but I'm trying to figure out how to harness narrative and story in urgent ways without necessarily saying we all need to agree on the story. Does that make sense or does that break things for you that brings me back to hierarchy. So, so if we are saying that the restoration of the sort of microbiome is a paramount design is a design imperative. And that means something different to the farmer in Kansas than to a city trailer in Los Angeles. Right and that's okay because I mean that's even necessary. So you have to you have to flow that so it means something different for PepsiCo because they will have to make adjustments to their supply chain to support farmers restoring the soil microbiome. So, so to bring it back down to what is the highest imperative and actually it's water right to restore water and water cycles is actually someone on LinkedIn was saying that's actually the Einstein equation. And water and water cycles because if you focus on that and fix that you have to fix everything around it. So, so yeah so it's hierarchy narrative that that has enough room for interpretation as it flows through the layers of economy. Thank you. I grace we've gone lots of different places since you were piping in on the on the chat but I'm interested and I'd love to know. Whatever your reflections are at this moment on this including the religion you want to start. So what we're talking about is infrastructure and systemic things about how the system works. But the way that I'm hearing the discussion is conversation is a little bit like still looking at the objects. Right. And when I think about the changes that you guys are trying to point to in this group religion is definitely one of them. I think how does the entire society work. And what is the story that we tell, and we tell a particular story about individualism and I happen to have come in when somebody was talking about how the individuals. The individuals have to whatever. And anytime you're like all the individuals have to it's like, well, that's the end of that particular solution. Because we're not all going to be enlightened and some people get born and then you know they're not enlightened when they get born and you know. So religion gives answers to a lot of that the financial system that we're in you guys all know I talk about money that's one of the infrastructure inches. We talked about winning the media war, and the entire way that we inform ourselves of things that's a flow that's a whole infrastructure of how do we get our information, which is completely broken to the core. And supply chain is another one that I was starting to think about this week I was thinking about like what if every object you had built into the supply chain was it not where it stopped in the consumer's hands but how did it, like, how did it go and how did it end right. And so then you'd have an object like this and you're like okay, this can just go back into the ground. Right and then you'd have an object like this and it's like well, if it didn't have that coding on the outside it'd be a lot cheaper. Because this coding can never like the whole how where you're going to put that. But if this were just a piece of metal. Well we would have a way to manage the next part of this thing's life cycle. And so if every object had. I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow or ever I'm just saying that that's something we don't ever build into our supply chain and somebody who I said that to said oh well that's really complicated and I'm like well, how is that more complicated than how it got in my hand. It's the same level of complicated, kind of, you know, whether it's a phone or it's a this or whatever it is it's almost the same level of complicated where does it go next until it becomes more recycled so it's not necessarily more complicated and we don't have structures like that. So that seems overwhelming like how the hell are going to create that you know fix all of those things and I don't think we do fix anything. I think what we do is recreate chunks of the stack that can be switched out or and or parallel society, which is much more likely a parallel society is going to I'll talk about the story told us in a second, but parallel society is like a group of whatever it is communities and looking at the community rather than the individual as the fundamental whole on that is an individual doesn't exist in that initial system there will be individuals are only going to be nomads and people who move from place to place but in the initial construction of the system, or in the base construction of the system everyone belongs to a tribe everyone has a has a belonging to a group of multiple groups but that we stopped thinking about our economies are supply chains are everything in terms of the individual but more in terms of the group. And that's how I'm starting to think about that. I'm just starting to build that and I'm actually working on fundraise through a Dow, and I'll probably be making an announcement in the next few weeks, that'll be a little more official around that about how we're going to be fundraising for it we've gotten very close to it and the religion is definitely part of it. One of the ways that we've decided that we would like to incorporate or create a legal entity is as a religion. It's not a state but in as a religion because it's a legal entity that has a lot of advantages, but also because we are reconstructing the culture. And one of the things that we're thinking about doing is a kind of an NFT project where we would write a first draft of the cannon with stories that we think are relevant, but ancient stories but maybe modernized a little but we don't want to make up new stories and new narratives we want to use the ancient wisdom. But it would only be printed on one side of the page. And then you would put out 100 of them or 500 of them or whatever. And the holder of that would be an NFT holder and after two or three months they'd write their notes in the side on one side of the page and then they pass it to the next person. And then at the end of the year those answers would be collated so it's the same way that our cat and most of our I mean, maybe some of the cannons were written by one person but most of the religious texts are written by multiple people over a period of several decades and I don't think that I'm going to write the religion but I could write the first draft with a few people a few storytellers and and collecting and personally the religion. So there will be stories that will be mostly featuring women and collectives, not men, and will only have priestesses at first, until women are safe in the world and then maybe we'll be able to ordain men but until women feel safe in the world, only priestesses can be ordained, right. If the grandmothers have a say in it maybe eventually we'll get you guys straightened out I mean I'm not hoping it to happen in my lifetime. But anyway so that's kind of the direction I'm thinking in and I'm saying it very, you know, in a very serious tone but you know it does have a little bit of an undercurrent of like it's a little bit too crazy, but this is the new normal. And so that's sort of what I'm working on and like I said I'm going to be having some really pretty official looking materials and official launch in the coming weeks we have to get the legal entities in place and the, the technical blockchain stuff underneath in place for the fundraise. You really do think that you have to create a parallel society that, and it's not something that's going to happen in three years you know it's something's going to happen in a generation. And yeah, that's what I'm up to. Well everyone knows that I'm the queen but I think we're just going to have priestesses. I think that we're going to all you're going to have to you won't. You won't go by last name so just be divine. Everybody and who belongs to religion to this go by divine like the James go by just to remember that we're all, we're all part of the divine. Yeah. Those are some thoughts. Yeah, thanks great. Anybody with thoughts for for grace. Well, one thing, the idea of a parallel society implies that the society that we have is coherent and working. You could build parallel to it I don't believe it is something is working. I'm not sure it's working. Okay, I think it's surviving somehow. I agree sorry you go ahead and. Yeah, so how I think about that is like really I mean I'm a little bit shallow. And so I think about that as an in simple outward terms. So if I have a credit card and a passport on part of the society I can function in the society. And if I don't have a credit card or a past part I'm not in the society and so something that would serve the functions of a credit card and a passport that would indicate that you're a member of this parallel society. And I don't know exactly and it wouldn't function like money of course it wouldn't and it wouldn't have any exchange rate to the existing society. You could own both a passport and this other thing. So you could actually belong to both societies. But the idea would be that all of your economic and political and Citizenship Act activity would operate under this new infrastructure. I like that. Thanks Grace, Stuart then Kevin. Yeah grace. The idea of women running society is a great thought. My only suggestion is rather than othering men. The thinking behind why all right women need to be running society is such an important piece. Okay. That's a disingenuous statement from a group that doesn't have any women in it. Sorry. Like it's just like no past this group doesn't have any women in it. Either you've chased away the few women that are here or they just couldn't come this week or it's just, I'm not othering men any more than you're othering women by having no women, no men, women in this group. And I think the reasons that women should run and hopefully and preferably older women should be running society have been built into ancient societies for a very, very long time. And women have an intrinsic mechanism by which they don't get to be individuals for certain months of their lives, like they actually have to carry around another human being inside of them, and feed it to their bodies so they have an embodied experience of non individualistic existence. So I can go through an intellectual argument about it but it's not going to matter people who are going to feel other they're going to feel that. Yeah, it is what it is. Grace, I don't, I don't, I don't feel other, but I think the educational piece that you just articulated is a really important one. I agree with you I don't disagree with you I think you're absolutely right I've been saying it for, you know, 3040 years that the same thing. Yeah, yeah, I know I get it and, and I think that there's different levels of society and we talked about religion it's very interesting right. So there's an educational piece, which is, there's a certain strata of society that really needs that. And then there's a certain strategy of society that just needs the rituals we always did it that way this is the way we did it and there's a certain strata of society that is the mystics which is definitely not me. There are people who belong to that strata of society who have a deeper understanding than I do about what what I just said like I said it at a very superficial level. And I think that they're different strata and different levels of education. I mean nobody ever educated me why men should be running society and I just had to follow the trip took me a very long time to understand why I had certain problems and certain difficulties getting ahead in society, because we all took for granted the only reason that you need education, I think, for any of these things is because it in particular in this particular case is because women will have less tendency to defend their territory by physical means, and that's where education maybe can protect you I'm not sure that this kind of society can be protected. I don't think it in some ways it doesn't have a chance. I think there's a piece of this also that's about stewarding guardianship stewardship protection that that adopting a general notion of protecting the group protecting the space protecting the soil protecting the ideas is helpful and and we've been missing a lot. It's been very antagonistic is we we think of sort of doing battle in the arena, not protecting the arena in some sense and then there's some, there's something there I'm just sort of, you just kind of figured that for me grace. Thank you. Grace. Yes. Yeah, are you. Any speculation why this group has not effectively brought in or retained women participants on kind of side part of that question is why do you keep coming. I don't know that as a challenge I'm really curious because we've, you know we've acquired to do that we've reached out a little bit, but clearly we've stayed relatively homogeneous for a long time. Any insights. It's really hard to say, but there's like a, it's really hard to say, because I don't know right but, and I've worked in very male environments and I decided about when I went through that thing a few months ago I was like I need to find co founders. I only asked women. And then recently somebody asked me to lead some panels on governance, and I thought I'm only I'm going to make sure that the panels are four people and three of the four have to be women. And I had zero problem finding qualified women in this in these specific things that I wanted that were really awesome and excellent and whatever and I don't have any answers but I do know it's solvable, and I was looking at one of the one of the things that popped up I can't read all the chats but one of them that popped up is how do we get people over 50 to speak to under people under 30 and I'm like what are you talking about. I have almost no for I mean I love this group, because it's one of the few groups of people in my age group that I belong to, but I belong to almost all groups that almost all my friends are under 40. I belong to almost all my colleagues in the disciplines that I work in our 40 and my co founders. I think she's around 30 and you just do it and you be selective about who you want to be around, and maybe ask your wives, or one woman in your life that you think would like this group, why she wouldn't join. I don't know, and I keep coming because I like you guys and I've grown up in this environment and your wise group of people who I just am very fond of. I don't. You know, and there's certain women group that I belong to but there aren't very many that are have the level of wisdom of this group and I don't. I just haven't found them yet, or I haven't created them yet. I'm certainly starting. We haven't invited them yet. And, and maybe there have to be separate groups like I feel like something like a game be women group, or something, you know, that's specifically only for women that can come to you know like. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I have the advantage of I can start with just women because I am one. I mean, it's just small reasons when you talk for about money panels, like a few years ago, I decided to stop participating in metals. I've been invited to panel to all my say no sorry I won't do it. Why not well because and then people think actually there's a wonderful thing we quote just happened thought of it yet or just haven't thought of them. We are where the where the mind goes as default is really familiar and it takes a little bit of a layer of pushing past that say, when we were putting together critical path capital. We got beat up books advisory board is full of healthy like 4045% women but nobody. And I was challenged on that and my first response my major response was well, I don't know highly experienced people in the sustainability game who are people of color and I just caught myself and thought, why is this bullshit coming out of my mouth. You know, four minutes I thought 20, right. Seriously, seriously accomplished. We like each other, and they just hadn't thought of them in my first move. I started calling people up had three in no time and so there we go. And it was the it was the default habit of the familiar world that I had to get slapped to step out. And so it's enormous wealth of opportunity people richness different perspective that I just wouldn't have thought of natively because you know, how I came to be. Thanks. We all have to remold that. Yeah. Thank you. Kevin you were in the queue earlier and dropped out I think you're probably next and then Doug B. Yeah. You know on the Cherokee and often have clever ways around these things you know that the Eastern band have the head man. But a few years ago, the woman of the head man said he's not worth it anymore she went to somebody else and he became the head man. And it was like, if you've ever read the book Darwin's rainbow, pretty interesting thing about gender transformation in in things like fish, where it's all women and but they need to have one of them become the big male who protects the women. And then when that one dies, another female becomes the useful big male that protects the culture. So that was just kind of interesting. And also on churches, the US has tax benefits to be a church that other places don't have, and they also have zoning things that other places don't have you can get around zoning you can call it a church. So, there's just some interesting structural advantages on on the US that is better that remain from when churches are more culturally central. Thank you. Doug be then Pearl. Yeah, just to sort of enrich the subtext here. In an elemental frame, and what I'm referring to is is him away and tradition five elements stuff. In water, are the feminine divine feminine centered elements and all the nurturance caring. feeding supporting stuff resides and and moving up the elemental train fire and air are masculine are the are the divine masculine elements. And balance by in between the elements is sort of the, the holy grail, but in our societal frame. The hierarchy, which is, you know, testosterone is fire and air. It's all rationality and data and information and knowledge and, and all of that, which is all air and fire which is all about transformation of things into energy and to light into warmth. And this is the feeding part, the sustaining part. So, it's really easy to confuse gender and properties and attributes and energetic flows and qualities. And it isn't about gender, it's about the underlying substantive stuff around divine feminine. And the properties and, and the divine masculine and they are, they are, you know, polarities that like at least in the natural world and, and then sort of spiritual and energetic realms are things that are the balance each other. And we're in a system that is growth has been and is grossly out of balance. It's been a long time. And, and I personally really welcome the idea of divine feminine heading into a divine feminine period and, and having those qualities and those properties inform and guide what we're doing. So I just wanted to sort of stir that into the mix to take it out of the gender blur. Carl. On that last note I was just having a conversation with Doug yesterday and one of the things that came up for me was what a difference of word banks and if we interpreted the word. Dominion that's been in the Bible with stewardship. And that kind of gets to the masculine and feminine feminine to I actually in the one that had posted stuff about kind of 50 is the new 30 and there just seems to, I mean I'm part of dozens of groups and there's hardly anybody under 50 and any of the groups I participate in and we've done some, we've done some generational projects that we're trying to do but it's how do we, how do we draw on those people, and then to have two degrees and organization development and I think that's the, that's the community to reach out to grace because I'm there's at least a dozen meetings in life. I've been like the only, only guy in like a meeting of 10 or whatever so the women there was probably, it's probably about 70 30 women to men and the organization development area. Cool, I'm resisting the urge to bring up reproductive rights and the astonishing movement to limit women's reproductive rights in this country and my lack of comprehension on how women can't be standing a month saying wait, hold on a second. It's, it's, it's like boggling to me. Doug is your hand still up from before. Okay. Mr. Jones. The woman who did her masters on aesthetic injustice, and it was the way the masculine form of communication and form filling out was hurtful to women in ways that the men didn't see what they were building. I'm saying, aesthetic injustice, it feels wrong. And yet, by engaging, they're already, you know, engaging in the, the terms of engagement that the men have set up. So it was a pretty interesting kind of thing. It's an awkward phrase for it can someone, can you or someone explain it better to me. It feels wrong, you know, and it's built to feel wrong and not pay attention to how it feels wrong. The root is is is an extensively extremely masculine form of communication that's why women aren't here. This is this is a men's play playground. It's not. It's not more than that. It's fine with me. I'm a white guy playing in this world. But you know, aesthetic injustice is not a phrase that you have to think about a bit, you know, how is the, the thing you walk into, not built for you. You know, and, and if you're the ones building it, you're not aware of that's, you know, the male unawareness of the systems that we invite everybody into and why can't they comply. Well, you know, that is, because it just isn't right. And it isn't right from an aesthetic standpoint, that's her point. And, and that is, you know, it, but if you start engaging transactionally around it, then you're, you're already, you know, playing on the on their church. So it is designed to, you know, frustrate male logic and I hope that's what it's done by intruding here. I think it was interesting what I can't remember who said that the guy about the groups that he belongs to. And he's saying like he belongs to a lot of groups that are a lot of women, but the other groups you belong to are the ones that are people over 50. And that's sort of it right why don't you step into the groups with the people that you want to mix with instead of saying oh they should come into like that's what Kevin's pointing to to it's like oh there's an aesthetic weirdness about it. And why don't they join our group instead of how about why don't I join their group and see what that's like. Yeah. And I think a piece of what we're talking about right now clicks back to something that came up earlier in the call that I would love to spend more time on which is how do we organize OGM to be of service to groups and issues and communities that we care about. And how do we organize OGM to do some more sense making around it and what one of my frustrations is seeing good ideas float by and the info torrent all the time, and not be pinned into some space of shared memory. I'm having a hard time explaining that in different ways I spent an hour and a half with David Weinberger yesterday who's lovely and a philosopher and we were sort of kicking this around a whole bunch and I'm just trying to figure out what is the right language so maybe this is a topic for a future OGM topic call. Because it matters a bunch. What we're doing here. Maybe our blindness to our male culture would be a great topic. Yeah. Which is exactly what I wanted to say I want to thank and acknowledge you grace. I'm sitting here in a place of discomfort and sadness, which is absolutely fine because that'll lead me to think. And what you articulated that it's not even possible for me to understand what the difference is because of the difference in biological experiences. Just touched me in a certain way. So thank you. As a wrap. As a wrap I'm going to read the poem that Ken posted earlier in the chat, and he has just dropped off I was going to ask him to read it but I will do so real quick. It is manifesto the mad farmer liberation front and goes as follows. Take profit the annual raise vacation with pay want more of everything ready made be afraid to know your neighbors and to die, and you will have a window in your head. Not even your future will be a mystery anymore, your mind will be punched in a card and shut away in a little drawer, when they want you to buy something they will call you when they want you to die for profit, they will let you now. So friends, every day do something that won't compute. Love the world, work for nothing. Take all that you have and be poor. Love someone who does not deserve it. Denounce the government and embrace the flag. Hope to live in that free republic for which it stands. Give your approval to all you cannot understand. Praise ignorance for what man has not encountered. He has not destroyed. Ask the questions that have no answers. Invest in the millennium. Plant sequoias. Say that your main crop is the forest that you did not plant that you will not live to harvest. Say that the leaves are harvested when they have rotted into the mold. Call that profit. Prophecy such returns. Put your faith in the two inches of humus that will build under the trees every thousand years. Listen to carrion. Put your ear close and hear the faint chattering of the songs that are to come. Expect the end of the world. Laugh. Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful, though you have considered all the facts. So long as women do not go cheap for power, please women more than men. Ask yourself, will this satisfy a woman satisfied to bear a child? Will this disturb the sleep of a woman near to giving birth? Go with your love to the fields. Lie down in the shade. Rest your head in her lap. Swear allegiance to what is niest your thoughts. As soon as the generals and the politicos can predict the motions of your mind. Lose it. Leave it as a sign to mark the false trail the way you didn't go. Be like the fox who makes more tracks than necessary. Some in the wrong direction. Practice Resurrection. I'm going to read a book by Wendell Berry and I'll repost a URL here. In my dojo we were talking about one of the founders of the dojo a woman named Yoko who's phenomenal and who I learned used to between classes be on the phone to everybody to like make sure they were in class and if she noticed somebody missed a class you would call them and all that terrible whip. And I don't think whipping is the way to do this and I hate the word whip. But it was a thriving dojo under her reign partly because she deeply cared that people were participating and the people showed up. And Ken mentioned earlier that he had invited four women and they hadn't had a chance to show up. And I've done little of that purposely sort of intentionally and I need to do more of that so I will, I will do that. Thank you all for being here. I really appreciate this. Thank you.