 Without there being a survival situation just shooting innocent animals just for a steak then I'm not saying maybe it'll make me sound terrible, but I probably could Well, it does make you sound terrible makes you sound heartless to be honest Yeah, we can do it. Do it. How long are you gonna be here for? Come come come come away here. I've got that one percent battery. Okay, come on quick quick quick I think you're seeing some more friends later today. Oh really? No, we can have a picture with your phone Just because I got a I want to I want to terrorize everyone I've seen you on TV all the time. I follow you on YouTube You're the reason we're doing this out It's going on Come on, bro. What are you doing? We're out here speaking up for him and you're out here paying for them to be in the slaughterhouse As I said, I'm just on a different sort of moral scale to you guys Just got different beliefs, unfortunately. Like what's your belief system? Um, as I mentioned earlier, I kind of don't believe animals can be innocent or guilty I just kind of think they're animals I know like as I mentioned earlier I think it's necessary not biologically or dna. We're just like learning how to make a fire or Or going to school. I think like that's something a necessary thing. This is necessary. Yeah for what reason? Um, as I said, if shops were to put nutrition or no, they don't know when the shops aren't closed But you never know like no no no now like why is it necessary for you now? The same reason to like learn how to make a fire or be outside. You don't need that now because we've got the technology Okay, so then we don't need slaves anymore. We don't need you know people doing our work for us We don't need animals to be butchered and stabbed and enslaved either We've got shops. We can buy plant foods. How do we justify it? I don't think shops will always be open though But they are now they are now. So how do you justify it now? Um, that's a good question. I don't care about hypotheticals. I'm talking about right here right now in Melbourne. Why can't you be vegan? Part I guess it's a bit of a cop out but I guess I just Not like but yeah, I just think it's you like the taste just be honest. Let's be honest with each other You know, you know, it's not about making a fire or it's a necessity It's because you like the taste you don't want to change or something's holding you back from changing But you agree that it's cruel I don't you don't think animals have value It's not to the same extent that humans do you know well, I didn't I didn't say that I said do you have it though? They feel pain and suffer you agree Yes, okay, so why should we cause pain and suffering and or take their lives from them if they have any type of value? Why don't we just leave them be? I think they could benefit us This is why you stabbed them for your benefit like but you only like the taste it is not really that much of a benefit other than taste Man, you got me like a moral conundrum. Yeah That's why I enjoy watching. So, you know, I'm like say someone was born with mental disability All right, you might say that they don't have the same intelligent capacity as you right? So you might they might not even suffer to the same depths as you can see far So do you think they like we can just do what we want to them because they don't you know live up to your Um, you know stature of moral value Um, I guess because they're human I'd have that same sort of connection I know you said it was a little bit different when I mentioned to yourself earlier But just like I'm pro-choice and I think like that's like a harder moral decision than drinking Pro-choice wait a second. You're taking someone's rights away. You think we should have the choice to take someone's rights away Pro-choice for slavery Well, that's that's a choice slavery is a choice enslaving someone's a choice So you're either pro-choice across the board or you're selecting who your pro-choice to abuse and kill is I guess I'm selecting the animal say in that case Put yourself in the pigs position gas chamber stabbed in the throat and I say I like the taste I don't know why but I just don't I don't have that same sort of connection You don't have to empathize too much with them. You could just say hey, is this right or is it wrong? But when I'm fishing or doing anything like that, I don't feel like it's wrong Yeah, but stick a hook in a dog's throat. Do you think that's wrong? Like even with dogs, I still don't have that stick a hook in a kid's throat. You think that's wrong a child human I think more human is completely different Human supremacy you haven't heard of that Um, he was mentioning earlier the you think we human beings think we're better than every other animal so we can do what we want to them Not not necessarily better But just look out for each other. I guess we can look out for each other and still not stab animals in the neck Like it's Rick being vegan is is a non-action. You're just not doing something evil Yeah, like I'm not asking you to do something over the top. I'm just asking you to not Put these animals in these places. Yeah I'll see you say it's like a non-action. It's not neutral and then I'm the carnage If you were to see a baby lamb caught in the wine scene What's your first reaction? Uh to help I guess exactly That's actually a really good point If I had a lamb here cutting their head off slowly, you'd probably be like, hey, joey I don't care about animals, but stop doing that. Hey It depends on the context like if we was in a kitchen or something like that, I'd have no qualms of it Me torturing an animal for you to eat I wouldn't call it torturing. I think that's the the difference between myself So if I don't torture someone it doesn't matter if I cut their head off or not Like for me torture would be doing it on the basis to inflict pain With longevity whereas like if you just do it for the food, I wouldn't personally perceive that as torture As long as you justify it with eating them you can do basically Anything you want to do the animal without torture So just enslaving them breeding forcibly breeding them keeping them in factories cutting their head off With animals, I don't think they can be employed or slaves. I don't really think they can be slaves Why don't I think it's possible? Why not? Do they desire freedom? I don't think they have they don't have desires Well, I think that like instinctually they've got instincts absolutely But I don't think they want to So if I cage an animal and burn them with a cigarette lighter, do you think they have a desire for me to stop? Feeling pain. I guess so but like a cow on on a dairy farm or something like that I don't know that it knows it's in prison. I don't know it knows there's something beyond the wall Well, well, I don't know that you're a sentient being until you tell me So what traits could a cow display to show that they're suffering? I mean they could limp they could pine for their young I guess what would it take for you to escape? Well, well, I think if you try to stab a cow or shoot them in the head, they try to move No, but I mean when they're just roaming around the farm and stuff like that Put well put these animals in a in a knot box, right and they try to escape the knot box I don't yeah, I guess with the knot box with factory farming. I guess we probably hear apart I'm not talking about factories. I'm talking about slaughterhouses where they all go Slaughterhouses. Yeah, they definitely find that they don't want to be in the slaughterhouse. Do they? Probably not no But again Sorry go ahead. No, I was just going to say like you're standing here arguing arguing to me for slaughterhouses to exist For the the reason why I'm not necessarily I understand it's been morally questionable The reason why I kind of accept it is because it provides cheap food for people But plants are also a cheap source of food and we can't like justify this horrific Holocaust of sentient beings when we have all these other alternatives Chuck you out in the jungle when you're trying to survive and you do what you've got to do to survive Maybe I wouldn't be standing here arguing with you but like You know, we've got vegan options and you know technology and plant agriculture and if I was to like turn away From like factory farms, but would fish in still be fine Why would you like I want to know why would you drag a fish out the ocean and suffocate and stab them And kill them when you have a vegan burger As I say, I think that it's firstly fishing will be a valuable skill as well how to bring food home As well as you know the taste stereotypically as well You know, we've got seven billion people on the planet. Well, the most consumed fish. I think it's wild caught and Farmed fish are about half and half. There's about 2.7 trillion marine animals dragged out the ocean every year like Why? Yeah Yeah, I think I'd much prefer lining fishing as opposed to you only eat fish and all the other animals you don't eat like gas chambered pigs I think I recycle a diet. I'm on like I've done like three months where I've done pescatarian Like I kind of mix it up, but it depends like how active I am health at that particular time Yeah Well, if you can justify to yourself this type of violence And you you're okay in your in yourself to live with that like I'm not okay with it Well, I think it's evil. I think anyone who knowingly contributes to this has got um, conscience issues. I really do I I can't Watch that eat a piece of their body an animal who's suffering in a look at this Begging for their lives. Yeah Animals begging for their lives and you're telling me that they don't feel that come on man But but no one can force you to do anything But like if you can live with that if you could shoot an animal in the head like that Without there being a survival situation just shooting innocent animals just for a steak then I'm not saying maybe it'll make me sound terrible, but I probably could Well, it does make you sound terrible makes you sound heartless to be honest because if you can reach for a vegan burger right there and that is the the um That's the result of the non-vegan burger and you still choose a non-vegan burger when you have all these options I Think the factory farming again like that that is awful, but I mean it's not that's not factory farming. That's a slaughterhouse Yeah, but I supposed to go fishing in the weekend. Like I don't more and feel that's you gotta get the fishing We're talking about this animal factory farms and slaughterhouses What why the factory farm for me as well feels terrible is because like that traps their entire life Whereas if they were roman free like I'd feel but they're still enough in a slaughterhouse Wait a second. Why would you feel better if they got freedom? Because they've made this sort of whole like they've been yeah So you agree that they can be slaves if they desire you just said to me before that they don't they don't how do you know They desire freedom. I don't think animals desire freedom, but you'd feel more comfortable if they were free Yeah, so you've contradicted yourself. They're like animals can't be slaves, but they desire freedom with the freedom aspect of it That they'd be able to I feel like it'd be a little more of a natural process I feel like it wouldn't be like gmo They wouldn't be eating all that crap injecting it like that's why I'd much prefer or feel healthier Just having an animal and then killing it myself as opposed to that. I don't get me wrong. I do eat from there That's for cost reasons If I had sort of the opportunity to eat how I'd want I'd want to eat everything organic Everything natural. I wouldn't want to eat from there, but for cost reasons. Unfortunately, I do You know veganism has got nothing to do with health. It's all to do with the ethics of exploiting animals when we don't need to yeah Um, yeah Yeah, ethically speaking Yeah, I've just got different morals, unfortunately Yeah, do you agree that humans deserve rights to be you know to to not be enslaved and killed and like just basic fundamental rights of Um, yeah, I guess so you guess that yeah, I guess so the reason I say I guess so is like at any point Society can turn and go, you know a bit crazy. I hope that survival mode That's a dear to you know, um, we're fortunate enough to live in a society where like I walk down the street feeling pretty comfortable and relaxed Um, not not looking at each other. Have you ever been a true victim of violence? Yes, but yeah, have you been held hostage kidnapped gone to your head? Uh, not hostage, but I've been bashed a few times been bashed. Yeah, how did it feel been having no power over those people? Um Not not the best. Yeah, not the best. I know what it's like, too And this is what we do to these animals every day They can't they don't have anyone speaking for them only asked. Well, we're speaking for them. They can't speak for themselves And like people like the taste so they go through this horrific life of misery and murder for a burger, you know And people like this calling stuff out to people who are trying to speak out for them That's a bit unreasonable. Do you think that man's ever been put in a gas chamber and beg for his life? I don't think he knows what it's like. No, no I think what his behavior there's a bit unreasonable But I love the fact that you guys come down here have a chow's people Like your activism's fantastic. Just unfortunately. I'm on the other side of the fence. Yeah Like the way you approach really Well, you're making me think quite a bit like a couple of things you've said Like this is why I think like you're so popular like you very articulate yourself very well It's not a hard topic to debate for me. It's really simple for me. It's really like Like you're making a choice to be cruel when you eat these products, man You're making a conscious choice To deliberately be cruel When when like, uh, I'm not too sure if you could sit on the paper you gave me but when you said, uh, milk is murder. Yeah The word murder I'd also associate that with like human beings Like if you would associate it with human beings, it's not the only definition of the word I'm not I'm not like playing like a definition game on semantics game Yeah, yeah, I don't mean it like that But like for example, if someone murdered someone or if murder took place I'd want the murderer to be put in jail. Me too. Whereas like with this. I wouldn't want anyone to be put in jail Someone tortured and killed your dog. I'd want them to be punished Torture I'd say again, you're not gonna like this but because it's my doll. I'd want them to be Put in because I've got that ownership on it because they've done that with my property on that basis Then I'd want them to face legal For property damage, not because the dog deserves any type of right to their own Yes, okay, like if if someone was hunting in the wild I wouldn't want them to face when I'm going fishing up the family. I don't foresee myself to get jail time for that What I feel like is it's a lot harder for people to put themselves in the victim's position If they've never been truly victimized Some people can like some people have empathy. Some people just don't you don't really need it to just look at that and go Wait a second in your mind logically without no emotion. Let's go. Is this justified? Am I am I really choosing to be cruel or you know, like if you can justify it in your mind I mean, I don't know like play the mental gymnastics and For me, it's really simple man. It's not it's not a difficult topic full of nuance It's really with the mental gymnastics like the way I kind of justify it like, um, I don't know if you know like backpackers in Australia We've got to do like a lot of farm work I'm not like putting backpackers in any position with the animals and so forth So the sort of conditions that are required to mass produce anything are horrific And I think the calculation that I'll do is when something's done in mass It's a lot cheaper and then it'll benefit the masses in order for like the vegetables to be given to us I get it a lot of people don't have toilets and there's tampons and people all over the sort of food Like even for the phones and so forth, but then it does provide a cheap product for millions of people and then in my mind I'm like That almost seems like reasonable in my head. So obviously slavery Yeah, would make products a lot more cheaper. You wouldn't have to pay anyone. Yeah But is that justified then? No The reason so there's a line isn't there there's a line Yeah, there's a lot and for me this this is the line when you take people's rights completely away Chuck them in a gas chamber and bolt gun them in the skull To make things shit, but you can make corn cheaper. You can make Wheat cheaper I guess my line is more that they're human beings Yeah, yeah, but that's that means what does that mean a different species? It's just like dogs matter more than pigs humans matter more than dogs like you can find The children with the same sentient capacity as a pig, you know You can find full-grown adults with the same sentient capacity as a cow or a chicken, but we look after them We don't rob them of their rights Would you just how much sentience would you place as I mentioned earlier yourself with the clamp like? Oh, I mean, let's just start with a cow. Do you burgers? Okay, so we're not going to go to a clam if you still stab in a cow in the throat Okay, why would you go to a clam? Let's go to bacteria. No, you still stab in a cow in the throat The reason I mentioned that is because from my understanding, I don't know vegans can be Different and have different perspectives I'm just curious what your perspective would be because they don't have like a lot of the stuff that you've mentioned to me With the nervous system the brain and stuff like that. There's an animal that doesn't have that Well, why would they have nerve ganglion? I think the beginnings of nerve ganglion But why would I have that discussion with you if you're still stabbing cows in the throat? I mean, it's a really unproductive discussion. Like if you were just vegan except for clams We could have that discussion. But you're not you're still you're still causing all of this So let's let's go cows pigs lambs chickens fish You know, then we can go down to the ones and earlier you kind of mentioned like all the animals are on a same sort of value I don't think I said that. Oh, sorry. No, no, no, I said they have to I said they they deserve fundamental rights I didn't say that you're as smart as a chicken or like I'm obviously there's differences between us in intelligence and looks and you know But like to deserve fundamental rights, which is like the rights of freedom and not to be abused and enslaved I mean, look we give that to babies and infants and even dogs like we're starting to You know agree. They don't deserve to be tortured or killed like we've got the rspca protecting dogs Just have a massive double standard when it comes to these animals was a double standard I 100% Agreed there's a double standard people will go to china and protest them eating dogs Whilst have a steak in their mouth. I completely agree. There is a double standard. Yeah I personally wouldn't have that double standard what you do You just have it with humans and animals. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you do in that case. Yeah Yeah, you think you're a human supremacist. Do you think that anyone below us in your mind deserves or doesn't deserve any rights? With the below Even I don't think consuming something necessarily makes it below yourself either Like when things are consumed that we're all part of the same ecosystem. Well, you're treating them like shit We're treating them like shit We're actually turning them into shit You're eating them and turning them and shitting them down in the toilet sentient beings who had the capacity to feel love and Have their families separated and feel pain and they want to live we're turning them into shit The man has that dominance has to be dominant over something It was a lot of slaves because the Nazis whatever it is now it's an animal holocaust They have to be dominating over something just weaker Yeah, yeah, I mean there was there was human on human stuff going on too not too long ago I mean I had this probably a similar mentality to you or they're here for us. It's benefiting us. It's good for it It's cheaper, you know or the weaker than us that whatever it is or they're not smart like us Whatever we used to excuse we used to enslave and kill each other. We use that with animals now. Yeah I think with um When an animal consumes another animal, I don't think that is saying i'm above or below or anything like that Is consuming an animal we're all part of the same. I mean most animals are herbivores So most animals don't consume other animals and 75 percent are herbivores Like why would we copy the the behavior of other animals in the environment if we don't need to like we don't Have to go and kill each other and eat each other or we don't need to kill animals anymore, dude Like it's a really unjustified act like especially this like the whole population we need factories to feed the population I guess you'll say that there's a victim involved But I don't think the majority of the things we require are necessary from Watching tv and stuff and you could argue that they're negative for the environment This has got nothing to do with the environment. This has got everything to do with the rights of sentient animals that we're murdering Um, let's not get it into an environmental argument, which we could talk about the environment separate to veganism Veganism is about animal exploitation Like if someone was being exploited and killed for that tv and you come to me and said hey joey I heard that whatever that brand is is exploiting and killing people and turning them into bacon. Let's talk about this topic I'd be like hell. Yeah, but you've got every single right to live in this world without being enslaved in the western world without being enslaved and killed This is legal here I'd get arrested for saving these animals here I think with So right now For example with snake venom. I think there's so many things that could long term Help human beings the potential cure for cancer or these sort of things. I think animals Can definitely help us with it. How does that justify eating a burger which you have no necessity for in any way shape or form You're not dying of a snake bite. You're not dying of cancer right now. You're eating a burger because You want to because you like the taste. Absolutely, but I'm more saying in terms of the benefit that we can Take from animals like well, I could do the same excuse to take benefit from other humans too. It's not justified That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it doesn't justify it Like I know it's easy to go out to these gray areas clams and you know What a snake venom and all that but I want to talk about the burger first, you know Like you really have no reason to be doing that. You know what I mean? Definitely strong points There's no There's no that that B12 thing that we kind of mentioned earlier Don't have to enslave anyone and stab them to in the throat to get the nutrients out of their blood Just trying to find little things too. Oh, absolutely. I'm definitely glory My electorate is so strong. I'm probably I'm definitely glory Yeah, you got it, you know, you like you love the taste that much and it's provided by me part of your habit Like it might be a bit daunting to change makes such a big lifestyle change But what I would if someone's not willing to change Like what I at least think is honorable is they admit that it's cruel and unnecessary, but they can't be fucking changing You know what I mean? Like that's what I respect that when someone tries to claw at all these justification for something That's obviously so it's evil. You know, that's when I'll start to lose respect for someone. You know, I mean Because I think there was some sort of things I'd be like that's a hundred percent morally wrong But I do as I say Although we could argue like I'm clawing with this and that I do think this What are those some benefits? What are those things with animals? There's benefits to raping a woman too I I ejaculate and I get I get pleasure. Well, there is there's a pleasure from raping a woman. I don't think it's justified in any way I think they should be imprisoned and castrated rapists, you know what I mean? Like of course we could talk about benefits to doing things, but is it justified when there's a victim involved, you know Sure, there's b12 in your blood. I could get that b12 out of your blood and you know With humans eating other humans like you've become sick from that It's a it's it's not the issue though. It's about a rights violation. That's what I'm talking about You know, I mean not about a health thing or environment thing. I'm just talking about animal rights being taken away exploited They're being killed. They don't even have rights Not even recognized as victims Another valid point Are you again? I guess you're gonna say this is like clawing again Yeah, you're looking for gray areas thrown at me. I'll just get you straight back on the burger. Yeah Oh with the burger I'll have a long time to think about it I just want to be honest. I don't think I'd ever change to be honest But there's always time, you know, a lot of my friends are vegan as I said, um My friend mentioned they're going to be meeting you later. Uh, Denny Okay, I think you're going to be meeting her today or tomorrow Oh, cool. Yeah You should come to the gas chamber with us tomorrow. I've got a flight today That's why I'm like checking checking my clock a bit. It'd be cool to take you to the gas chamber in um the diamond Yeah, there's a vigil tomorrow diamond valley. Yeah, unfortunately. She she did invite me to come give it a go I've got a flight flight today to New Zealand, unfortunately Wait a second. You're not you're not her boyfriend. No. No boyfriend's Andy Newcastle you'll see him later Small world It's been a good conversation, mate. I do follow you on youtube, man. I love your content I appreciate this conversation because um It's given me a good, uh Platform to just to to attack these arguments Really solidly. Yeah, you know, I mean like I'm very fixed in this position And it's like I'm seeing you go out reaching out here and there and it's good to stay fixed it on the topic 100% if you can justify eating a You know Murdered animal to me in a burger when you've got another option there right there then Email me and we'll talk about it 100% Yeah, how's it say you're fantastic what you do really do appreciate it really good talking to you, mate Don't be deterred by the people shouting out and it was lovely to meet you as well Take care brother have a good flight. See you mate Well, I think um, this was a very Good example of what not pandering can do like it does like obviously I wasn't as You know quote unquote polite as I'm some people want you to be but I just was direct with him. I didn't um Beat around the bush. I was I was I didn't really pander to any of his arguments I just kept it on point didn't let him take it out into the the wilderness with all these different gray areas And it was a productive conversation still even if you walked away after I said I think that that you're a terrible person for watching This and even if you walked away then I would still say like he's going to think about that, you know I'm not going to say that you're not terrible for watching this and eating me Literally contributing to something horrific on the screen. I have to say what I feel so Who knows without conversations going to go you cannot measure where that conversation will go You can just have the conversation speak your truth Defend the animals how you would want to be defended and move on to the next person. So