 Bueno, pues muchas gracias por acompañarnos en este evento de Future Tense, Convergence Lab y el Tecnológico de Monterrey. La conversación va a ser en inglés, pero si prefieren escucharla en español, hay una opción para interpretación en la parte inferior de sus pantallas. Entonces nada más hay que dar click ahí y ya van a empezar a escuchar la traducción. So welcome to, is your university designed to create a better future, an event brought to you by Future Tense, Arizona State University's Convergence Lab y el Tecnológico de Monterrey. My name is Mia Armstrong and I'm the coordinator of Convergence Lab, which is an ideas journalism and events series brought to you by ASU that connects ASU with partners like the Tec de Monterrey to consider ideas of mutual interest and to work towards a better shared North American future. We work closely with Future Tense, which is a partnership of ASU, New America and Slate that explores emerging technologies and their impact on society. Today we're going to be discussing how universities can design and redesign to create a better future, not just for their students, but for their entire communities and I'm selfishly very excited for this conversation because I'm a former student of both ASU and the Tec de Monterrey. I studied abroad for a semester at the Tec Camposida de Mexico in fall of 2017 and I had a really life changing experience there for a number of different reasons so I like to consider myself part Sun Devil part Borrego. For those of you who don't know ASU is a public research university committed to excellence access and impact. It was ranked number one in the US and number five in the world for global impact in research outreach and stewardship and as a good Sun Devil and with my boss listening here I'm obligated to also say that ASU is named the most innovative university in the US for the sixth consecutive year this year so forks up to that. The tech of course is similarly innovative institution one of the most innovative and in Latin America and throughout the world. It's an institution dedicated to social entrepreneurship and academic excellence, as demonstrated by its ranking among the top universities in the world for employer and academic reputation, and the fact that I learned this today just three months after graduation 21% of graduates either currently own a company or starting a business which is quite quite remarkable. The tech has more than 30 campuses across Mexico and locations and several international destinations as well. And so as you know we have with us today present David Garza of the tech and President Michael Crow of ASU. We could probably spend the next hour going through their lengthy and impressive bios but that time is certainly better spent kind of getting to the substance here. So I just want to highlight that in addition to the shared experience of confronting the challenge of 2020 as a higher education institution. These two presidents and their institutions have an extensive track record of cross border collaboration, including a joint executive MBA through our business schools. High impact research on water and sustainability, the modeling of North American energy futures through our decision theater network, rule of law programs between our law schools and many others including a collaboration that will be announcing at the end of this conversation so stay tuned for that. And so, given all that I want to go ahead and launch into the substance here and I'm going to do so by kind of pulling the audience so I'm going to launch a poll for all of you all who are joining us on zoom. And I'll be able to see it on your screen. The question is, in my mind, the biggest challenge facing higher education institutions is training students to succeed in light of the fourth industrial revolution, adapting to digital and hybrid education models, promoting accessibility and inclusion, or finding alternative revenue streams and business models it's supposed to say there. This is a real nail biter so make sure you get your votes and I'm going to give you all about 20 more seconds here. Last call. I'm going to go ahead and close this poll. And I'll share the results with all of you. And so you can see it was pretty close the winner here was training students to succeed in light of the fourth industrial revolution automation and rapid technological advancement. I want to dive into that especially more and certainly all of these challenges. And, but to do so I'd like to go ahead and start with kind of an umbrella topic that I think hovers above all of these challenges which is university design and leadership. So President crow in your recent book the fifth wave the evolution of American higher education, you kind of trace the development of American higher education institutions across four waves of historical development and then you propose a model for a fifth wave institution so if you can kind of give us the brief spark notes version of evolution across those four waves and what you think institutions should be evolving into in the fifth wave. Thanks me and thanks everybody for putting this together. It should be a lot of fun so the 400 years roughly give or take the US has had higher education institutions the first wave was basically the colonial version of the British College of Oxford or Cambridge in the Harvard Princeton Columbia and others that started as small colleges in pre revolutionary America that were a handful of these they got going. They were basically the, the slightly modernized version of what we call Greek academies teaching the classics teaching in a very elite model and teaching very small numbers of people. That wave the first wave is continued in the US evolving over 400 years some of those first wave colleges have gone on to be other things. Others like Bennington College in Vermont were formed just less than 100 years ago. They were formed in the Olin College in Massachusetts, less than 25 years ago. And so that model has continued to evolve and it's populated with a fantastic set of of four year focused classic oriented, full immersion oriented schools. You think of a school like Colorado College. You think of a school like Bowdoin College schools like that that are fully operational. The second wave in the US was really a function of the fact that those colleges were all private. They're all started largely by religious organizations initially and then by citizens after that. And so they couldn't get those going in certain parts of the country so in certain parts of the country Greek academies got started in the southern states South Carolina and Georgia were the first public universities in the public colleges in the United States and they tried to replicate the same thing so the universities of Georgia South Carolina North Carolina and Virginia are the best examples of then the second wave starting can call those the public colleges, the public Greek academies later over the subsequent, you know, 250 years or so. What we saw were teachers colleges were added to this more state colleges were added to this community colleges were added to this and there are now hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of even low thousands of colleges in this second wave and they're still evolving and moving forward. I will say that that wave also had colleges that then moved up to the other waves later. And it's a little bit problematic because there's been a lot of complexity with those colleges performing. The third wave was a truly American manifestation, called the land grant colleges that emerged as a way in which to evolve the United States during the Civil War, colleges focused on agriculture and engineering colleges focused on the sons and daughters of working class people, because college up to that point up to the Civil War in the United States was basically an elitist thing. Elite families, very limited enrollments very limited participation, no practicality. And so the land grant colleges emerged there's including the historically black colleges and universities that are land grants there's less than 100 of these institutions and they have evolved in the last 60 years, then the big breakthrough in American evolution was the fourth wave, following the third wave which was the emergence of the research university, which was a combination of the British college and the German technical university and brought to the United States in three institutions between 1876 and 1890. That was Johns Hopkins University Stanford University and the University of Chicago, all of which were formed by philanthropic forces as private institutions that then set the example for the emergence of universities. Right after that happened. Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley, Michigan, all these other schools decided to become research universities doing science doing technology granting PhDs and evolving and these four waves have been fabulous for the United States I mean they've been fabulous assets, each of them each uniquely and unlike the private sector, where waves have changed through evolution always mean the previous form goes away. Not true in higher education all four waves have their own evolutionary patterns. Now they also have their own limits. What has happened in the United States is that wave four then became more and more selective, more and more concentrated on research and then wasn't able to scale with the population wave to the public colleges and universities have had difficulty. Being successful they graduate less than half the students that attend wave one has become so unbelievably expensive tuition between $50 and $60,000 a year, unbelievable costs and then very few seats, and then wave three the land grants there's only a handful of those. So, some of us thought it's time for a new wave and driven by the previous waves were driven by the forces of the country the democratization of the country, and so forth so the fifth wave of which as you is a prototype. We're now no longer the only fifth wave school, our research intensive universities in many ways, sort of an American version of tech. In fact, we learned many things in my in my almost 20 years of visiting tech and engaging with tech and that was scale commitment to all of the citizens commitment to the entire life cycle of education high school college everything and so. So the fifth wave universities are highly democratized research intensive scalable high speed technologically driven institutions, very much in the spirit of the scale and diversity of the United States so the fifth wave. So which issue is a prototype, Purdue is another prototype. Others are coming along very similar to tech in a lot of ways I think we're a little bit more research intensive than tech. And so, but but it gives you the sense but but but tech is very scholarly intensive nonetheless. And so, and so we're very much a university in this fifth wave so the fifth wave the way to look at it is universities that are devoted to scale and access and excellence all in the same institution. Yeah. Well, thank you so much President crow prison Garza I want to give you a chance to kind of reflect on that certainly there are significant differences between the higher education systems in Mexico and the US but there are also a lot of similarities. And then maybe you can also, you know I know you're the architect of this new model that the tech is implementing tech 21. So kind of take us into any reflections that you have. In terms of this idea of the fifth wave institution, and then maybe the sorts of design aspirations that you all have at the tech via this model tech 21. Sure, sure. Thank you and first of all, I mean it's an honor to be here with you and with all the audience and, of course, sharing this space with with Michael, I mean a friend of take them on the rate. I think that the ASU and Michael will be in our history books because the relationship has lasted now for three precedences. And it's been an inspiration also for us, what ASU is always doing and I find this concept that Michael presents very very interesting very provocative. You know, but at the end of the day, I think that what lies behind what Michael is sharing with us, it has to do with impact. And I think that we as universities we always need to reflect and think about the impact that we are having. We actually increase that impact. It comes to my mind that precisely this week, one of the senior leaders approached me, and he mentioned that during the past 30 years that we've been doing distance learning, and that we were leading distance learning in Mexico and perhaps in Latin, Latin America, we have reached roughly are around 100 and 170,000 people in the in the different degree programs. And now during the past nine months, we have and this has been perhaps in taking just one course or taking some courses or taking a full degree. And now during this past nine months, we have over 100,000 students taking a full distance education. So, you can see the type of world that we're living in, and how we need to reflect about that impact that we need to have. Mexico, it's a country with great challenges, one of those challenges it has to do with coverage. Currently around 24% of young adults attended college. We have a 25, 34 years old bracket, and this is about close to half of what the OECD average is so to that's a big challenge that we have in our country. Take the Monterey and institution with presence in different cities together with the sister university tech millennial together we we account for 150,000 students with presence in about 4040 cities or so. Something that I've been sharing with the community is that I would like our institution to focus in the coming five years in the three eyes, the eye of innovation, the eye of research which in Spanish is investigation and the eye of internationalization. And I think that by doing that we can increase the positive impact of our university, because we need to also realize that we as a university, we have different missions, we have educational mission, but we also need to contribute to the research and to advance and to contribute to the economy, and we also have this outreach outreach mission. Now related to to your comment also about our model what we have been doing in the past, in the past seven years now. Tech 21 is an initiative that we started in 2013. At that time, the idea was to we ask ourselves, well, can we do better in terms of how we educate our undergraduate students. And part of the reflection was, well, we see that the world is changing very fast. Well, this concept of book a volatile on certain complex and be was at that time, we were talking about that. And we also fell in love with with this, this phrase that says that when our graduates finish their degrees, perhaps they will work on jobs that do not yet exist they will use technologies that haven't been invented, and they will try to solve problems that are not yet in a radar, those problems. So, we started working on how we can transform the current educational model in what we now have in place it's already implemented all since last year, all of our undergrads are going through this model. What are the key elements of Tech 21. It's essentially center on challenge based learning. It's, it's a and what we mean by challenge based learning is that we actively involved the students in tackling relevant problems within a real world context. The faculty identify some problem and the problem that is linked with either industry NGO, the community, and they bring that problem as part of the learning process. Some of these problems are social projects, some of these are business problems. There's a great variety of type of problems. Do you know there is this Chinese proverb that says tell me and I forget, show me and I might remember, but involve me, and I will learn. So now, more than 50% of the undergraduate curriculum, instead of being lecture based courses are actually challenges that the student has to participate and many of these are actually within groups so students are placing situations where they have to quite innovate. So we need we think that with this they can develop leadership skills that otherwise perhaps in the context of a traditional lecture based course might be more more difficult so we have found that it's a very good model for for developing not just the disciplinary skills but also preparing the students with a broader, broader sense of, and a broader, also, broader development of competencies, many of them, sometimes we call them soft skills that are very hard to develop, and that this model allows you to do that. I think that that's really phenomenal and it really gets to this concern that our audience expressed right about how to educate for changing circumstances under the fourth industrial revolution so just briefly, President Crow I want to give you a chance to reflect there. When ASU thinks about challenge based learning. How are you kind of incorporating that within the curriculum at the undergraduate or graduate level. Well, probably the best way for us to think about that is we've tried to we've tried to create an environment in which the culture of our institution can be adaptive and flexible and maximally creative that is we if people think that the best way to teach something is the traditional way then that's okay, but then that traditional way shouldn't limit the creativity of others who believe that there are other ways to teach. And so, so much so for instance that you know we're, we have a major project underway right now where the student is an avatar inside an alien zoo, 12 light years away from earth, in which they're interacting with a species collected by an unknown species in which they're learning evolutionary biology, and they're learning ecosystems and they're learning biology in a completely different format now that takes immense creativity. So just down the hall there might be somebody that says well that's all, you know, focus focus, who wants to learn that way so what we've tried to create is a way in which we're, we're more open to finding the pathway that produces the best learning outcomes across the broadest public population. We're, we're here to serve the entire demographic of our society. We're not the handpicked demographic that that that so many schools are focused on and there's nothing wrong with that it's just that if everybody did that, we wouldn't have the means to move forward so like David, and what they're doing at tech with tech 21. We're trying to facilitate the birthing of all these different ways of teaching and learning, and then allowing maximum creativity and maximum evolution and that's really what we really focused on. And for the most part, in fact that more than for the most part our faculty have embraced that they're unbelievably creative and unbelievably excited and interested to be doing things in new ways. Yeah, I think that that flexibility and that creativity is crucial. And so I want to go ahead and take a chance to switch tones or switch paces a little bit here. As president, you know that we're in the thick of finals or exam season so we wanted to go ahead and turn the tables on you all and ask some exam style rapid fire question so the rules here are that you'll get 30 seconds to answer the question, or less if you can do it unless when your time is up and alarm will sound and I'm not going to be lenient about time so that's that but I will however switch off who goes first for for the sake of fairness. So, so I'll set any questions. No. All right. Great. And so President Garza let's start with you and what is your message to students or educators who are feeling discouraged after a year of unprecedented challenges. I would say that I am tremendously proud of all of them. And I would tell I will tell them, do not focus your energy on what you did not get or did not do this year would rather think of what you've got, and as yourself, what you're going to do with that, especially think about attitudes I would say, values habits that perhaps you have positively changed during this year. So focus on what you've got. And what would your message be to students and educators. Well, we really don't have time for discouragement what we have time for is adaptation and moving forward discouragement doesn't permit forward movement you can. You basically have to say to oneself, we've learned a lot. Fantastic opportunity to move forward here at very very hard and harsh teaching moment that we're all in, in which we have to realize how we never will allow this to occur again in the way that we've learned so it's really a moment to not be discouraged. Yeah. And so present comment ask you to complete the sentence here for me a university is a place in which knowledge is created synthesize stored and transferred to not only students that are on the campus with you in a in a fully immersive learning environment but also should be an open beam of the most intense laser light imaginable, empowering learning and creativity throughout the entirety of our society. Very good and present Garza. I would say one of the most transformative influential and resilient institutions that humankind has ever created. And I would also say a place to unleash your potential. And present Garza. What is one university outside of North America that you admire outside of North America. Of course there is a issue outside of North America would say, I think that perhaps Singapore University of Technology and Design, because of its distinctive approach to things highly interdisciplinary experimental you would say I mean it started from scratch, thinking about how a university, a different university could be. So I think that that's one that I would put in. Excellent and President Crow outside of North America University you admire. Well there's several University of New South Wales in Australia is highly entrepreneurial highly energized Dublin City University in Ireland is unbelievably created very much in the tech model, Ben Gurion University in Israel. There's also universities that we're working with in Africa that are fantastically desirous of transformation so there's a lot of fantastic institutions on the planet, really moving forward. That's great I don't know if you get full marks there because I asked for one but but we'll maybe you get extra credit depends on who the professor is. And so I understand that that perhaps you two have been well not perhaps you two have been very busy managing the COVID crisis for your institution so maybe you've had less time than the rest of us to watch some pandemic TV pandemic movies do some pleasure but I do want to ask, you know, if you have a pandemic TV pandemic movie recommendation or if you read for pleasure what you recommend folks should be reading right now President Crow. So there's a fantastic book called the Ministry of the future written by Kim Stanley Robinson if you want to really understand what lies ahead we're have to kind of have to reconfigure how we make decisions and how we structure ourselves it's fantastic and then the Queens gambit which is a multi part series on Netflix is really fantastic into the notion of intellect and human development and competition and competitiveness and gender and bias and all kinds of things it's really a fantastic story. I just finished the Queens gambit and I echo that and we actually just recently had a future tense event with Kim Stanley Robinson talking about ministry for the future so if you are joining us and you missed that event you can watch the recording on YouTube. But President Garza any any recommendations. Yes, you know something that I watch during the pandemic. It's this documentary series about our planet by David Attenberg. I think that it really gets you in reflecting about where where we are and what we need to do for a planet. So there is this series about the planet. There are also these documentaries about our universe. I think that it's always fantastic to realize about where we are in this universe and what humankind has been capable of in terms of books. You know not right now I'm reading the biography of Robert Iyer from Disney. An interesting story so what the experiences on that yeah. And you guys were very good about staying below 30 seconds it's a little disappointing for me I would have liked to hear the alarm sound but but thank you for humoring us with those with those I see President Crow was cheating a little bit there. I thank you for humoring us but those rapid fire questions and I want to transition into a segment here talking about research which I think is an incredibly important pillar of both of your institutions. And to do so I want to bring the audience in again via a poll. So if you're on Zoom you should be able to see this poll here. And the question is do you think enough North American universities are designed to conduct research that will help our communities confront existential challenges like the pandemic or climate change. And of course the answer is yes no some but not enough. I think this is fairly straightforward so I'll give you all about 20 more seconds to finish up answering. We have a clear winner so I'm going to end the poll and share the results. So you can you can see here the resounding answer was some but not enough I think certainly that was that was my response and perhaps a little bit of a obvious answer there and my understanding is that the two of you as educational leaders are kind of committed to trying to change the default answer to that question to be yes and I think a lot of people who are joining us on this call today would would also include that as one of their missions and I think one of the things that's been clear in this crisis is that universities have simultaneous obligations to both their students and their communities right and so I'm interested in you taking me into how your institution has responded to the COVID-19 crisis at the community level either through research or other activities present Garza you talk about this idea of having a high tech high touch institution so tell me what that means and how you've taken that approach in your response to the pandemic. Yes, essentially before we knew about the pandemic. I was sharing with the community that perhaps we are we are seen as a high tech institution because of our background because of what we do because of the innovative use of technology, but that we also have that we need to keep in mind that we want to be high tech and high touch and high touch meaning that connection with the community that connection with the needs of the community and internal community and external community related to when the outbreak started and the lockdown with the finance essentially a set of principles to tackle the pandemic and one of those principles was related to how to make available to the community, to the community, the all the capabilities of tech academic leadership health capabilities. We have implemented over 250 initiatives initiatives ranging from COVID monitoring technology in wastewater by the way in collaboration with ASU building ventilators assistance robots and there are nearly 30 treatment protocols. We have also a health system tech salud or health system has had a tremendous leadership role at the national level. They have attended over 2000 patients are very, very low mortality rate and also participating in these protocols and we have provided also support to different organizations throughout different places in Mexico, regarding their help in the reopening protocols and in the during the lockdown session. Yeah, thank you so much President Garza that's really phenomenal and President crow one of the parts of ASU's charter is assuming fundamental responsibility for the social cultural economic and overall health of the communities that serve so how have you done that in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. So there's sort of a setting aside that day to day operation of the university there's sort of two parts of that one part is really important and that is that we now have a starker understanding of what we didn't do who we didn't educate who we have that we have an unprepared population doesn't understand what a virus is that we have unprepared schools, who who have difficulty managing through a complex moment requiring requiring very significant resilience and so we've initiated a huge internal reassessment of ourselves relative to what we do and how we do it and how we're working but having said that what we're doing in the immediate moment very similar to David and tech is everything we can possibly do to lower any barrier between the university and our intellectual assets and our creative assets in the community so we launched ASU for you. Which has teaching assets for families that are at home training programs for teachers to move in new modalities ways to provide learning assets to anyone anywhere. In any configuration through however their lives happen to be going forward as well as we've built designed and deployed a high speed saliva based testing system that we then make available to the public and we've tested hundreds of thousands of people here in Arizona in addition to our own community. We probably have 200 or more research groups working on every aspect of coven and coven related things that we possibly can decision making community engagement epidemiology testing. And so basically, and I think this has been a positive in all of this the university has found a way to, as you suggest from our charter. We're just become engaged with everything not just the running of the institution but the helping of other institutions and the helping of the community and, and, for instance, a group of our students built a 300 node distributed manufacturing network for PPE to be made for communities that had less access and did that with distributed remotely managed 3D printers and just everything that you can imagine you take the students the faculty the staff everyone. All together. And you say that there is no barrier between the university and the community whatsoever. And that was very natural for us that that's been just a, just a way in which we've really felt comfortable in terms of working so. So, but at the same time we also see our response to the pandemic has been, you know, somewhere between a D minus and an F at the social level and the community level and the political level and the decision level. On the scientific level, it's been tremendous. But we also now realize the limits of science science is not sufficient to produce the kinds of solutions that one needs in these things and, and this pandemic then is an example of and a example of some of the complexities that lie ahead so our siloed world inside the university clearly has not produced the right kinds of knowledge products and training backgrounds yet that we think is going to be helpful and needed for the future. Yeah, so you know I think that that's that's crucial right and that you know this this communication and connection of what's going on inside the university to the outside world kind of breaking out of these these silos. I want to talk a little bit you mentioned this idea of kind of the work that your students have done that staff and professors have done and I think certainly in the tech students and staff and professors have been key to responding to this crisis on a community level. I want to talk a little bit about innovation and research management so you both lead enormous universities or university systems and kind of my question here is, how do you do it right and how do you think about research or innovation management and kind of finding this sweet spot of supporting but not controlling president gap side you want to talk about that briefly. Yes, you know, I think that the most impactful innovations come from from the faculty. And essentially what we as administrators have to do is to set up the environment, such that those innovation can, those innovations can flourish. So, for example, we have this low cost holographic type projection system that can be used for distance learning that we've been using actually during the past years for distance learning. What we set up was a program with seed money for faculty to start their innovations they applied and they started working on this one thing came to a took them to another level and think and that now things are at the point where they are being used. So, I would say that the same way with the OTT the Office of Technology Transfer, and we try to see how we can connect that environment, not just nationally but internationally, we set up also enough branch of the OTT office in China, and we also have these events, these yearly events for disciplinary and interdisciplinary research on one aspect of the innovation of education this will happen next this month, and then in February we have one related to disciplinary research, but there is that there is the opportunity to do researches to interact and to do some do some pollination and then work on more innovations. Of course there is the funding element. So for the funding that comes from the university sources, there might be some directional aspects that we want to promote related to some problem orientation that we want to to contribute through to through our research. So that's also another way in which we sort of try to orientate the type of innovation that we try to do. What about you President Crow, how do you think about innovation and research management. Well I think there's three dimensions to it so the first and the most important dimension is the support and empowerment of our individual faculty, who we've really given this assignment to be great teachers and masters of their subjects and I don't mean just science and technology faculty, but English faculty, history faculty, music faculty, opera faculty, whoever they happen to be business faculty. And that means finding a way to facilitate each of our faculty members to be able to be at the edge of what we know in their subject, contributing to it, understanding taking in insights and perspectives from other people so the first and most important thing is the support of our faculty in every possible way. The second thing for us at ASU is to weaken the barriers that have existed the social and cultural barriers among and between people in different fields, allowing us to have low levels of resistance permeable engagement across all fields and we work really hard for that and then third for us has been to pick a handful of really really exciting complicated things that we want big chunks of the university to get behind so our global futures laboratory which involves 600 faculty members, thinking about where we need to build our planet positive outcome a sustainable outcome for our relationship with the natural environment and then a second one that we're initiating which will sound a little weird but not to me. It's what we call our inner planetary initiative which we hope to grow into an inner planetary laboratory humans will not be bound to this planet much longer. We will be settling the solar system will be mining the asteroids will be will be moving off the earth we won't have to deplete the resources from the earth because there may be resources elsewhere, and etc etc so that's a second thing and then our second thing for public service and community solutions is another example of an entire college devoted to the notion of preparing and evolving solutions at the community level so that we can have a better social fabric and social systems and social support in our society so it's all three dimensions support for the faculty eliminating barriers and then driving forward significant initiatives that engage large fractions of our energy. Well, thank you so much I, we have about 20 minutes left here and I want to direct our time to the topic that is most interesting to audience members so I'm going to launch a poll here for audience members on zoom. And the question is, as an audience member would you rather talk about access to education, internationalization or preparing for the next crisis. I choose your own adventure here, and we'll talk about whatever you tell us you're most interested in quite close so if you if you haven't voted yet I'll give you about 10 more seconds to do so. I'm going to go ahead and close the poll here. And it was close but it looks like the winner here is preparing for the next crisis. Maybe the best way to start here is to ask you both what crises are at the top of your mind what what keeps you up at night at night in terms of when you're thinking about what we need to prepare for in the future. So for me it's our lack of understanding of complexity and resilience that complexity will require so. So technological changes and technological advances are going to free human beings up from tasks that are repetitive and so forth and so on. We're going to have autonomous systems autonomous vehicles we're going to have all these kinds of things. We haven't prepared an educational enterprise that allows people to now really full fully move forward towards the potential of their life we're moving towards unbelievable complexities from the fact that we've gone ahead and warmed up the atmosphere by two degrees Celsius on average and possibly as many as five degrees Celsius between two and five degrees Celsius, let me guarantee every listener, no aspect of your life will be the same going forward. And so and so we're so underprepared. This pandemic is partly a product of our lack of preparedness, our lack of understanding and so for me, the big challenge is getting people to understand complexity and resilience and the need to work these things out. And we're not there yet as we can see in the middle of what we're in right now. President Garza what what are some other crises that maybe keep you up at night. You know, of course, come to my mind, climate change. As Michael mentioned, massive migration, I think also comes to my mind, sustainable development goals, the agenda 2030. I guess that this is a good framework of some of the potential crisis there you will find climate change will have a clean water challenges that we have that we you'll find the aspect of inequalities that we have. But I would say that the more general I learned recently this concept of wicked problems. And I think that that's the main the main aspect that we are facing we are, we are going to be facing more frequently. And I think that this is wicked problems a problem that is very difficult to solve. There is incomplete contradictory information. There are many stakeholders and with different opinions, and there are large implications, economics, social environmental personal beliefs and so on. There is this interconnection. So I think that that has to do with related with the complexity that Michael was was talking about and I would I wouldn't mention in that I think that before the pandemic, the pandemic, we had one storm coming and that was the fourth industrial revolution, and then comes the pandemic, and then we have two storms collide and now we have a mega storm, because also the pandemic is generated in lots of changes. So what are some concrete steps that you would like to see universities in general take to kind of meet those, those two mega storms. President Garza, why don't you start us off. Well, you know, I think that this crisis has taught us that we can take bolder, riskier decisions, and we can do things differently from what we used to do. I think that definitely one thing that comes to my mind is that international cooperation between among universities to try to to go ahead about these complexity issues will be fundamental because we are institutions that we don't have all the capabilities, all the resources, all the expertise, but we are complementary. And I think that that will be a key in the upcoming. One of the things that we have, we have to work. And I think that this aspect about the high tech high touch element is something that we also need to embrace more and more I mean be very conscious that we are, we are within a community, but we have a global community as well towards all of these issues, none of these issues will be solved locally. All of these issues require global cooperation. Yeah. And so President correct me if I'm wrong but but the way I understand that in terms of the model of the fifth wave institution is it's working towards collaborative rather than competitive institutions in order to solve some of these problems so kind of take us into to your vision for for more collaboration between higher education institutions and and some concrete steps that we might take to address these complexities that you've outlined. Yeah, so one of the things that Jonathan Cole the very capable scholar of the design of universities from Columbia University has talked about for a long time is why are all the leagues in the United States and in Mexico sports leagues between schools we compete athletically against each other and then we compete in every other possible way, and we compete basically to become more and more and more exclusive. And so, while that might be fine for some schools that can't be the path for all schools and so to emergent fifth wave schools like tech and ASU, you know the notion for us then is how do we find a way to on a regular basis. As David has already mentioned to have leagues focused on global climate change, not competing only for resources to take the expertise that's at tech and the expertise that's at ASU and I've been arguing for this for a long time, and build truly transnational research enterprises we don't have that in general, we have transnational projects, a few faculty members working together we don't have truly transnational things. The problems are at a scale let's take just the pandemic. Because we were broken down into these segmented isolated universities that weren't really working together and governments viewing the world in different kinds of ways. This pandemic got away from us almost immediately and it's not back in the bottle yet. And it's not back in the bottle because we still can't figure out how to work together in ways and so we should not be assembling once some kind of crisis occurs. We should already be assembled already working together so we need leagues focused on, let's say, let's say something that we learned from tech. So we learned from tech that you could do a great job, taking university assets and then teaching in high schools, and then take the millennial. You know where you've got a whole new model a whole new way to advance engineering education which we've also absorbed those things. We will probably be working with tech and others to make sure that that there is no problem that the universities in some form of connectedness can't be engaged in. It is impossible to take thousands and thousands of colleges and universities, and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of faculty members spread out across disciplines, and organize them quickly enough to be engaged in the kinds of problems and challenges that we're facing it's we already have to be organized and we now have the technology to do that we have the systems to do that we have the drive to do that we have the understanding to do that. And if the virus hasn't gotten your attention yet nothing will. And so, and so we now have everyone's attention. So now what we need our new models new ways to work together to take all the intellectual assets that we have and bring them to bear. What would what would that enterprise actually look like like I'm thinking logistically let's what are the steps to arm, you know, model this out. Well, let's take something like let's just take something like North America so North America is Canada, the United States and Mexico. So that's 330 130 460 30 that's 500 million people. Living in one of the most rapidly evolving economies on the planet Mexico's economy is going gangbusters, you know, in the last 50 or 60 years you know it's risen to be a G 20 country it's about to overtake Russia, in terms of the size of the economy. Canada is very successful the United States is very successful but none of us have worked out the issues of sustainability, or water, or any of these other kinds of issues, we haven't worked on those together, they're not separable by countries. The region is so large. Let's call it approaching 10 million square miles, you take 10 million square miles of the planet 500 million people and only three countries. We have to find a way to bring all the major institutions of higher education together within those within that region and start producing the people and the solutions that we need for the region not for the little local thing that will never work the scale is too big. We have to scale up. We need new institutions, new collaborations, new structures and new designs to be able to take the intellectual assets of the universities and apply them to the scales of the problems. Yeah, and I want to bring present Garza in here a little bit present Garza you mentioned kind of one of your big eyes is internationalization. And one thing that I've been thinking a lot about certainly this has changed because of the pandemic but if we look back to the 2018 2019 school year around 15,000 Mexican students studied in the US and around 6000 US students studied in Mexico but those are really low numbers if you compare them to other countries and you also think about the social economic cultural familial ties between the two countries. And so kind of what are your aspirations for US Mexico knowledge and research exchange and in this sort of model that President Crow has outlined. So real quick, let me let me just talk about the internationalization aspect and then focus on the US Mexico aspect. The way when a technical terrain has been promoting internationalization for many, many years I think that that's also something that we share with ASU, but currently we have about 1% of our students graduate with an international experience, and every year about 7,000 students go abroad. Just from just from tech, but what we want to do is to move to continue increasing that mobility of students, but not just talk of internationalization just about mobility from the brother students, but take it to the next level from the generation of students to internationalization of tech. And here what we mean, it has to do it related to what Michael was saying in terms of trying to engage in long term initiatives, not just because one faculty is working with another faculty that's a that's a you need to have that, but what are some other in long term initiatives that will be impactful for both institutions for both countries. So that's how we want to evolve towards being a more international institution also tackling global problems, not just local problems, but actually problems that ones that we contribute to the global aspect, we are contributing to the to the local element. In terms of the US, Mexico, our internationalization aspect, you currently in terms of student mobility. In our case us is the fourth country for election by students. Here, there are many reasons I mean students young students want to be as far away as possible from home for the type of experience, there are costs are related aspects, and perhaps during the four year, the during the past years. So this notion that perhaps there was not a good opportunities for them in the states compared to other places. Definitely we need to be more creative in terms of the incentives, but I think that the key element it has to do with the fact that internationalization internationalization be seen a that needs to be seen, not just by undergrad mobility, but by other elements that we can have the virtual mobility not to replace the person, the face to face and the potential mobility, but to complement that we can have international internationalization through these long term initiatives that we can launch together I think that border initiatives will be very important also for us and Mexico to tackle and to work during the upcoming years aspects related to energy water climate change migration, poverty, and so on. So those are some of the other things that I would I would share at this point. Yeah. Thank you so much and just kind of to wrap us up here quickly. I want to ask you both to share in about a minute or so. What, what has been the hardest, most painful lesson of this crisis for you and, and how are you adapting your institution to make sure, you know, you, you move, you progress and develop after that lesson. I mean, why don't you start us up here. You know I don't know that all the lessons have been learned yet because we're not through this yet. You know I estimate that we're less than 50% through the actual management move to the management of the pandemic itself. And I can talk more about that but the hardest lessons are the most painful lessons for me have been to watch our political systems be incapable of understanding actually what's happening. And to understand that we educated those people, and we created those systems and to watch scientists communicating in ways in which they engendered fear versus confidence by talking in a certain kind of tonality and so our inability so the thing that's caused me the most pain is to see the limits of where we are so here we are now 8 billion plus people. We have a global pandemic that is wreaking havoc across the entire planet. And we are except in totalitarian states, you know where a few people make decisions and force those decisions on other people, except for those places and a few other exceptions it's been extremely difficult. And the difficulty is a function, which we in the educational enterprises have to own. And so we have to own that we've underprepared so that was more than a minute but that was that's a big lesson so so it merits more than a minute but present Garza what what is the most painful lesson for you and how, how are you planning to not have to relearn it. Let me let me share it in three level of responses for that one is perhaps personally, I would say the most painful moment was learning that some member of our community got infected and died during the lockdown. On campus level or university level, I would say that losing the campus experience for the entire community, the, especially for freshmen and for new faculty for students that are graduating and more global level, I would say this lack of seriousness of taking the facts of science and evidence to take decisions and ignoring that I think that that I would say were among the most painful lessons and in terms about what can we do to prevent I will go into the campus experience, I would say that we need to appreciate every single moment when we go back to campus and don't take it for granted and enjoy every single interaction and think that those face to face interactions are transformative opportunities that we as individuals have in a university community. I think that's that's so true and that's that's something I learned I was on on the tech campus during the 2017 earthquake in Mexico City and obviously a horrific tragedy and that moment of getting to go back to campus and and hugging classmates was with something that I'll always remember. So this has been a really interesting educational and aspirational conversation. But I think certainly that the measure of these conversations is the way that they translate into action off the screen or maybe in the old days, hopefully in the future as well kind of outside the auditorium. So in the spirit of that present crow and present Garza are going to close the conversation by signing a memorandum of understanding present crow has a bear that expands existing collaboration between the tech and as you on student exchange programs. The program known as accessal gives bilingual ASU students an opportunity to take tech courses online, earning credit toward an ASU degree. And, you know, really what it is doing is increasing access to a binational educational experience marked by excellence. Thanks to the tech's impressive academic offering so we can see both presidents have signed the mo you I think normally we would we would have a round of applause here so I'm clapping. So hopefully our audience here at home is clapping as well. And, and I just want to give a special thanks for making this program possible to Paola Garcia Jose Cardenas and Julia Rosen at ASU, as well as Juan Pablo Mura, Raul Rodríguez and Sylvia farias from the tech. So I just want to give you each 30 to 60 seconds to tell me here what what the program means for your institution and what the significance of signing this mo you is going to start President Garza. Yes, I mean, talking about one of the eyes the eye of internationalization I mean the opportunity to interact with ASU and to get to it with some youth people in the states. We were talking about related to the this fifth wave and to access to people that otherwise cannot have opportunities. Some of our students will participate in this program. Some of our faculty will be also taking taking place and I like that now we're taking these steps related to access and related to so how take them on the rate and also interact and have more impact with community that ASU is also serving. Thank you President Garza President Carl. Well, all I would say is that you know Mexico and the United States are, you know, very, very close first cousins, you know, we're, we're two democracies emerging here in the Western Hemisphere that have, you know, really gone through civil wars and revolutions internal and we finally have, you know, brought to this point and we're modernizing and culturally evolving and moving in the right direction and one aspect of that is the kind of relationship between tech and ASU two universities in two different countries that have the same vision for the future, scaled impact on a national and then this agreement allows us to take that a relationship one step further, more students engaging like you did me a more, more people engaging and then using technology to shorten the distance and reduce the cost and make it more accessible and make these things happen so for me it's just another step in the further emergence of this North American community between Canada, the United States and Mexico but the relationship between tech and ASU being an unbelievably important part of that and so we're very excited about this next step. Thank you so much President Crow. Thank you President Garza. Thank you to all of you who have joined us here online. It's been a real pleasure for me and I just wanted to let you know that you can keep up to date on future tense events future future tense events on new America's website. And then you can also get the latest on activities from all three institutions by following them on Twitter that's at future tense now at technical today and at ASU underscore MX. So with that, thank you so much. Take care we didn't say and hopefully we can see each other in person soon.