 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ interview show where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. For 10 years, the Chandler Center for the Performing Arts in Randolph sponsored the Vermont Pride Theater Festival. The festival had two different components. In the winter, there was a fundraiser to help support the three performance pieces that would be part of the actual festival that occurred during the summer. Vermont Pride Theater mission was to present on stage the issues and concerns of LGBTQ Gromateurs in a context that encouraged interaction between audience and performers in order to build understanding and acceptance among these Gromateurs, their families, their friends, and the wider community. However, for the 2019 summer session, the organizers of the Pride Theater Festival decided they didn't want just another traditional theater piece. They wanted an original production, a production that was based upon the true life experience of LGBTQ plus Vermonters. So the Pride Theater reached out to Maura Campbell, who was a playwright who had lived in Randolph and who was friends with many of the people involved with the Chandler. She, over a series of months, interviewed 18 identified LGBTQ plus community members who had grown up in Vermont and were willing to tell their stories, stories that range the gamut from coming out stories, falling in love, losing friends to AIDS, incest, trauma, sexual abuse, and a high school senior project to top all high school senior projects. Maura interviewed Howdy Russell, Graham Frichette, Timothy Grennan, Keith Ghostland, Kim Ward, Paulette Patel, Madison Messier, Josh Hoffman, Mark Hackett, Elliott Pepp, Chris Roberts, Ray Merrill, Steve, Stevie D, Stacia Bullock, Nancy Manny, Gail Sherry, Middlebury Pratt, and Gene Mudgeit. What resulted was standing in this place. Currently, the Pride Theater has published copies of standing in this place and is making it available to LGBTQ plus nonprofits, libraries, and schools, so that the stories of true LGBTQ plus Vermonters aren't forgotten. A bit of an acknowledgement. The work of playwright Maura Campbell to develop the script was funded by the Physicians Computer Company. Its transformation into the book form was funded by the Gay and Lesbian Fund of Vermont, the Samara Fund of the Vermont Community Foundation, the Vermont Humanities Council, and the Ann Slade, Frey Charitable Trust. And these are the comments from Maura Campbell about the creation of standing in this place. I arrived in Vermont in January 2019 to begin a series of 18 interviews with people who grew up in Vermont and identified somewhere within the LGBTQ spectrum. As a native Vermonter now living in South Florida, I knew a few of the people well, a few of them casually, but most of them were strangers. When I learned during the initial interviews and countless hours of telephone conversations that followed was that I was aware of little about the gay rights movement in Vermont, other than what I had gleaned from headlines over the years. The fact is that several of the older interviewees had been active instrumental in even history making and their efforts to change attitudes, legislation, and culture in our state. Their efforts not only made a difference in Vermont, but also affected in influence states throughout America. Younger interviewees who had lived their lives out loud from an early age, something inconceivable for the older group are making a difference simply by being themselves. But I also learned was how important it was for these gray folks to tell their stories, indeed how necessary it was for them. And the stories were not easy to tell, nor were they easy to absorb. I believe that everyone shared their most painful and most joyful moments and bravely allowed me to include these in the play. Creating a narrative in the script was a challenge. However, the cast was multi-generational, and as I learned from their stories, I got a much better sense of what had changed and what had remained over the decades that separated them in age. In the end, I realized that what united them beyond their identification with the letters LGBTQ was they felt compelled to stand on the stage at the same time the most safe, frightening, and sacred place imaginable and tell their stories. Many of the cast members told me that the experience changed their lives. I know they changed mine. So that was the narrative from the playwright. Now I invite you to listen to the experience of the three of the people who were part of that production. Thank you. Several years ago, the Pride Theater at the Chandler in Randolph created a unique production standing in this place. And the objective was to document and tell the stories of true, actual LGBTQ plus Vermonters. And joining me for this special edition of All Things LGBTQ Interview are three of the people who were part of that production. And I will introduce them one at a time. First, Graham, if you will unmute yourself and say hello. Hello. Welcome. And Timothy. Hello. No, that's still Graham. Timothy, say hello again. I did. Hello. There you are. And finally, someone who should be very well known to all things LGBTQ viewers. Hello, Kim. Hello, Keith. And Graham. And welcome back. It's been a while since you've been on. Yes, it has. Well, it's always good to be on. So thank you for having us. Okay. So I think I want to start with there were 15 people who told their stories. How did the Chandler reach out to you to be included in this production? And why did you say yes? And Graham, I'm looking at your smiling face so you get to go first. Okay. So I don't quite remember how it is that Mora found me. It could have been through my parents because they have done a lot of stuff with Chandler. But we can just say it was magic. And I was a senior in high school. And I had been doing, I studied queer history in high school and in my senior year specifically. And it just seemed like a really amazing opportunity. And I thought it was a super cool project. And so I was like, why not say yes? Of course, I'm going to tell my story. And yeah. And Mora is the playwright who collected your story? Yes. Yeah, I actually, I got to meet her. I remember us sitting down in the pilot room at U32. She came to my high school and we talked. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Graham. And Kim, if I understand a bit of your history, you had already been involved with both the Chandler and Pride Theater. Yes. I had been doing Pride Theater performances for about four years. And when I caught wind that, oh, we're going to ask Mora Campbell to write this piece. And she sent out Sharon who runs that program sent out an email. Anybody who wants to share, let us know. And I said, yes, of course. Yeah, why not? Were you also involved in formulating the idea of exactly what the Pride Theater at the Chandler wanted to do? No, I was not on the board that was choosing scripts or anything. I would just come in and either I was in pieces because people invited me as directors. I found a piece one year that I really wanted to direct and propose that I do it. You know, it was just more as a performer and a director. Okay. I mean, because my recollection was that when people were sitting around and talking about what plays they were going to produce that year, it was brought up with this group of people already involved that, wait a minute, why aren't we trying to tell local stories? And they had done a similar project working with veterans. So and Timothy, how did you happen to become involved in this project? Well, it's an interesting story in that my boss at the time at work, and I were working on a major crisis with a system at the time. And out of the blue, while we were, I was giving him an update, he says, there's this project we're going to do, and this is what we're doing. And would you like to be a part of it? And the conversation kind of went with, well, it took me by surprise. I'm not used to doing anything like this. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to. So the first question I asked was, who else is going to be in it? And, you know, he said, well, you know, they hadn't nailed down or hadn't, everybody hadn't accepted yet, but they were working. And he looked right at me and he said, well, they're going to reach out to Keith, because I can't remember if they had reached out to you at that point or not. But I said, okay, and so the deal was as long as Keith did it, I would do it. So then there would at least be somebody there that I knew, because that was my biggest fear. It's like, I'm going to stand up on stage with, you know, a group of people that, at that point, I didn't know. And so that was, that was the start of the whole conversation and how, how I was going to be involved in the whole meeting with Moira, piece two. It's like, yes, I'll go talk to her, but Keith has got to be with me. And part of that also is because you were a big part of my story in coming out and, you know, and all of that stuff. And it's like, okay, I need to bring somebody with me that, I guess, I guess you'd say makes me feel comfortable. I hate to use that word, but that's really what it was about. So that was how I came to be part of the process, which, which was amazing, the process. So what was your experience like Timothy talking with Moira? At first it was being afraid to really open up to her. But then as that interview that evening went on here in Montpelier, when we were there, really, it was, she was genuinely interested in hearing what we had to say. That was the first thing that came across to me was that she was general, genuinely interested in what we were saying and what our stories were. And the types of questions she asked, you know, whether they were clarifying or, you know, just, how did that make you feel or this or that? It was, it was an extremely emotional interview. It's the most emotional one that I've ever done. And that's, that's about how that's what I remember. It's like, and, and it was very, it made me feel really good after it was done. Now, Graham, you said that Moira came to Union 32 and interviewed you there. What was that experience like for you? I mean, it was a really good experience. I had never really talked to, because at that time she was a stranger. I was like, I don't know who this is. I had never really, like, told a lot of my personal story to somebody that I didn't know, somebody who was a playwright, somebody who like was was really interested, like Tim was saying. And like someone that was older, because I'm, I'm trans, like I'm non-binary. And sometimes it's really, and I, you know, I was in high school, it's like really daunting sometimes to talk to someone like that and be like here are all these like little details that some people really don't agree with that some people like really don't understand. But it was cool. And it sort of made me appreciate some of my littler stories inside of my big story to be able to to tell her. So like, yeah, it felt really special. I want you to hold on to that thought about little stories within the big stories. But Kim, out of all the three, you have the most experience with theater and directors, etc. What was your response to the interview with Mora? And was there any aspect of it that surprised you? Well, yeah, when you speak of being a playwright, I knew Mora from years ago. So we had had pieces showcased in the same showcase before. And she'd worked with me in the Vermont Playwright Circle. So I knew her really well, first of all. So that was nice and comfortable. Yeah, let's chat about it. The other thing is, because I've been in theater for a long time, and I've written about bisexuality, and I talked about, and I'm a kind of a blather mouth. So I don't, you know, I tell everybody. And I'm older. I'm in my, I'm not going to tell you whole now. I'm going to be 56 in May. And so I was pretty comfortable talking with her about it. Was there anything that was a surprise? I don't know that there was. I've also done things like transcripts, the women, which was literally a piece that was put together from 72, you know, women's interviews. So and I've written things where I've interviewed people. I was the biggest thing that it was a surprise was seeing what the script was like when it was done for me, because I knew what she was doing process supplies. But what's this all going to look like when you get everybody together? So that was really neat to see how it, how she really tied everything together. So I'm getting the sense that her, the product that she shared with you was one that you were comfortable with. But I heard you mentioned, you know, that as someone who identifies as bisexual, was that the core of your personal story that was being shared? And if so, what was it you were hoping that the people who were sitting in the audience were either going to hear or what they were going to experience by virtue of you sharing that? Well, you know, one of the reasons I decided I would do the interview because at first I was like, man, I'm sure there's plenty of people or whatever was that sharing came to me again and in email said, Kim, we don't have anybody who's by or pan or anything. Will you do the interview? So one of my hopes was that that element would be in there. Because oftentimes, you're so much more visible in the queer community. If you're in a lesbian relationship, like I was with someone for 17 years who's a woman, people are like, oh, you're a dyke, yay. And I was like, yay, you know, but really not. So, so getting that invisibility cloak sort of removed. And that was the core of what I shared was how I came out to my mother, what her reaction was, and also sort of how I dealt with, you know, people always saying, oh, you're friends with your ex-husband because you're a lesbian. No, I'm friends with my ex-husband because we're adults, you know, right? Oh, it's, you know, because he's not threatened. I'm like, oh, some guys are pretty threatened by that. So yeah, getting that story that's unique to being by or pan out there was part of my goal. And I think it worked fairly well. I think it's it's a difficult, it's a bigger, it ends up being a bigger topic. I mean, I don't know if, Graham, if you feel that way, sometimes it's like, oh, I'm a female trans, I'm a male trans. I'm, you know, it's like, it's a larger topic to say, I don't fit into this one box that you're thinking exists. So that was some of my hope when I did this. And thank you, Kim, for leaving us right back into, so Graham, you know, you identified as trans, pansexual. Was that your story that you wanted to share? And what were you hoping people were going to experience by virtue of hearing your story? I mean, yeah, I think that is the story that I wanted to share what it's, yeah, what it's like being non-binary and trans and having a sexuality that doesn't always make sense to other people and being young and yeah. And I mean, it was the way that my story was presented was, you know, a little bit shifted and like modulated for an older audience, like Mora wrote the show so that people who had like little to no understanding would hopefully be able to catch on and like kind of get what was going on. And so there was like, I don't want to say dumbing down, but there was like a simplifying or sort of like a, we have to start with more of the basics building blocks here for a lot of these folks. So I think with that goal in mind that like the way my story was presented was perfect and was how it was meant to be. All right. Thank you. And Timothy, what was your story and what were you hoping that people in the audience were going to hear and experience? My big thing was in telling Mora, you know, about way back in the beginning. Back in the, was it the late 80s, early 90s? Well, like when I first met you, is that it's a scary thing in the beginning. Doesn't matter your age. It's a scary thing. And that there are certain parts of our life that we embrace at that time because it feels, at least to us, to be safe and a comfortable place to be. And that's why the whole Disney world came into, came into the story because way back then that was, for a lot of reasons, the one place where I felt like I could just be me. You know, it's a fantasy world, so to speak, I guess. And maybe that's what I was living in was a fantasy world. But that's, that's the part of the story that I really hoped people came away with is, is that it's difficult in the beginning. And the whole thing about, you know, the first time I met you at the dinner, you know, at Sherry's house and all of that. And then, you know, going to Disney world all the time. And also the piece we're not truly having a conversation with my parents. I'm pretty sure they knew. But it was one of those deals where nobody just ever talked about it. You know, and I know there are people that some people will probably say, well, that's not right, or, you know, but we're all in our own situations. And that to me, at the time, just felt that's what's comfortable. And that's just the way it needed to be. You know, I was never told that I had to leave, you know, being thrown out of the house like some people are, none of that. There was none of that. Yes, you know, we can argue till we're blue in the face, whether it's right or wrong. But it's like, we're just not going to talk about it. You know, and then the whole conversations about, well, how come you don't have a girlfriend? Well, that stopped a long time ago. So there was never any sense that I had that they didn't know, or were pressuring me. It's like, well, you know, okay, there was no the big talk about, you know, we want grandkids or anything like that. There was none of that. And so that's what I was trying to portray with my story was just how difficult it is in the beginning. And then as you ease into it, and then you find these bits and pieces in places that just feel comfortable, and that's where you want to be all the time, to the point where now it's like, you know, in my age, 59 in May, it's going to be like, okay, because now it's like, I don't I don't have a problem talking to anybody about it, telling people about it, you know, it's, and I guess that just comes with now life in general just feels comfortable, even though we know there are people around that probably would like to see all of us just kind of go away. But you know, it's it's that point. And that was that was the point of my story that I hope people came away with. Oh, for the next question, I think I want to start with Kim, who has the most actual on stage experience. You walked into a room essentially with 14 other people who you didn't know, sharing very personal parts of your life. And then you walked on stage and shared it with an audience, fills with people. Was there anything about that process and that experience that took you by surprise that you didn't expect? Found it really a nice surprise that the group of people that were in the room, like, gelled so quickly together as a group, because when you're in a play, oftentimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes you'll have little groups that split here and there and they sort of get into cliques or something. And this was a room full of people, some of whom I knew, most of whom I did not, but who were here for something different than we're going to create Shakespeare or you know, death of a salesman, we're gonna, we were here to tell our own stories. So that was, it was a pleasant surprise how quickly people came together. And I had never worked, now he's with the director, his name just went out of my head. Charlie. Charlie, I was gonna say that. I'm like, I never worked with Charlie. And so his process of working was also this very interesting surprise, shall we say, very different. So Graham, what was your experience? And was there anything that you didn't anticipate that occurred during the process of rehearsals and production? My experience, I mean, overall was really amazing. I was a little bit surprised because in high school, I was sort of in a very, a very queer bubble. So of course, I was a little bit surprised to be like, one of the three, like trans people in the whole thing, which is kind of, I was like, oh, oh goodness. But it was, it was amazing. And I am really grateful that I met everyone because I feel like I made some lifelong allies. And it's always really good to meet queer elders, don't take that, don't take offense to that. And I'm just, yeah. And so it's like, I don't know, it's amazing. And it seems like I've known a lot of the people for so much longer. But just a lot of, yeah, the whole, the whole process, I think was just amazing. And I was also glad, like Kim said, that we all gelled very quickly, because I think that I was very, like, anxious in a lot of the rehearsals, like, and for the show. Definitely, because I had only ever done, like, I was in musicals, I was in the musical all of middle school, all of high school, but I had never walked into, yeah, a room of basically of adults. I was the youngest person in the production. I'd never had walked into a room full of adults and been like, okay, you're gonna do theater, like, with all these adults. But yeah, it was, it was great. It was a good learning experience too. Okay, we may have been adults, but I don't think any of us were grownups. And, and your elders could probably stop by rabble rouser and say thank you to you. So, Timothy, you and I knew each other, but you walked into a room with people you didn't know. And for you, this was the first time you were telling your story in a public forum Mm-hmm. Were there surprises for you and how you responded to that entire experience? Yes, the one big thing that surprised me was the emotional support from everybody. I remember that first, where we sat all sat, well, we were in the church or somewhere, weren't we, that night where we did the first read of the script. And it was difficult to say those words out loud to a group of people that other than you that I think that was the first time we all met was that was that first read through. And it's just everybody was so patient. And I really felt that everyone in that room, regardless of age, understood what we were all going through. And everybody's emotions were probably different. You know, there's, you know, excitement being scared, you know, just, you know, maybe some sadness, happiness, you know, that's just like it was all of these emotions all rolled into one. So that's the big but the but the support that was the thing. And then during the production, you know, during our performances, where we're all downstairs, you know, at the Chandler downstairs in the in the was it the green room or whatever it was, you know, and just kind of chilling and just talking and, you know, laughing and, you know, that that is the one thing about the whole production that I will always remember is that emotional, the feeling of all the emotional support that I think we all had for each other. So talking about support and emotion Timothy, when you were actually on stage, and there was an audience sitting there. Mm hmm. Did you get a response to or from the audience? That's interesting because for the two performances, I basically tuned out the audience. I was concentrating on all of us on stage and everybody's reaction that we were all having on stage. I can honestly say, I did not truly pay attention to what was going on in the audience. And then, you know, after the fact, like you had brought it up when we were talking, you know, on our way home after one of the performance, like, Oh my God, nobody got up to even go to the bathroom. You know, it was like three hours, wasn't it about three hours? Nobody even got up to go to the bathroom. And it's like, Oh, I didn't even notice that. And that's when I started to realize that I had just shut the audience out. And I think part of that was because I've never really having conversations with my family that first night, there were 12 or 13 of my family there. And I only told two of them that I was even doing this. And they all went out on their own, bought the tickets and said, we're coming to see it. And so that's the other reason I think that I just tuned the audience out. It's like, I couldn't, I don't want to say stand, but I couldn't bear to see their response, or whether it was emotional or what was going on, because I was afraid that I would fall apart on the stage and that be all she wrote, that I wouldn't even be able to read it. And so that was, that was my big thing was just I completely tuned out the audience. So Graham, from having done musicals in middle school and high school, did this audience feel different to you? Yeah, it definitely, it was definitely not the same. I just remember feeling, oh, I was so, I was really anxious. And I don't think I could, I couldn't block out the audience like Tim could, but it definitely just felt like more of a wait, like we were delivering this big thing. So yeah, I felt, I remember feeling nervous. But then also, Tim, your story would always, I would always be emotional during Tim's story. Oh man. Yep. Okay, Kim, as the seasoned elder, how did this performance in the audience feel as compared to other things that you had done with the Pride Theater? It was bigger, because we had a huge cast. And for anyone who does theater knows, there are family members coming to support. And it was very similar to other shows that we had done in that it was a very supportive audience. And I am thinking as we're interviewing today about people who hadn't even told family members about what their orientation was, who then invited them to the show to find out there. And so like there was this tension that was like, we'll see how this goes. But it was a very supportive and a large audience. And that was great. But it is different. I like the way Graham put it in that it's you're delivering this thing to this audience. And it's not just that you're giving lines, you're telling something that's very personal. And even if you haven't experienced every story that's on stage, because it's this history of Vermonters, it was very powerful. Yeah, just to have that audience hear it and reflect it back and support us. Was there anyone that you invited to come specifically that you wanted them to share this experience? Well, my ex partner Terry was there. She came. And so I mean, I invited a ton of people because I always do. Hey, I'm going to be on stage. But Terry doesn't often get to come to the theater and she came specifically to see it. So that was really huge, you know, to have her see this whole community of people. She grew up in Vermont, too. So yeah, but everybody knew at that point. I mean, there are no secrets in my family or friends at this point. So there wasn't any of that kind of or, you know, and my story was pretty light. The person I was talking about coming out to is my mother. She's passed away at this point. But she had told I mean, Terry and I were together 17 years. So she had totally accepted her into the family. Yeah. And Terry already knew most of your secrets. Oh, yeah, she knew all my secrets. All of them. She knows Doug. We call Doug our ex-husband. He's not my ex-husband. He's our ex-husband, which pisses off his mother to no end. She wasn't there when they went through things together. But yeah, no, but he loves it. But, you know, yeah, there's no secrets. Yeah, there's no secrets. We're going to have to do an addendum here to the so that's another interview. There you go. So, Graham, was there anyone that you reached out to saying, please come to this performance? I mean, all of my family, I have sort of like a funny family dynamic sort of complicated, but I invited both of my both sides of my parental units and they all came. But I think it was the most important, like I remember asking my stepdad Jim to come because part of the story I told in the show was about me and him. So I was like, please come. They were all there. And how did your stepfather react to your performance? I think that he, because he's pretty shy. He's like kind of private. So I think that it made him, I don't know, I'm looking for like a different word besides special, but it just was like, I think he was a little in awe that like he was part of this thing that was in this big show. And then even if people don't know him, like he's, we're both immortalized, like in this show and our little relationship. Yeah. And you shared with him in a very public manner how important his presence was in your life. So Timothy, were there any people that you specifically invited to come to the performances? No. It was interesting because my thought, and I guess at some level, my hope was that nobody would. Why? That's a good question. I'm not sure I haven't answered. It came up at the family camp when after we had done our interview when we were coming up towards the performance, when I had said to a cousin that, oh, just kind of nonchalantly, I said, oh, by the way, I'm doing this play with Keith and other people at the Chandler Theater in Randolph. And it's happening. And we, at that point, we had the dates and I told them the dates and all that. He's actually the one that got the ball rolling and bought all the tickets and brought most of his brothers and sisters, his brother didn't come but his sisters. And then I had told my aunt on my father's side and her entire family came, including the current boyfriends of the teenage girls that came to the opening performance there on that Friday night. So in the end, it was very, very emotional that they all wanted to come and see it. Because I just had in my head that, you know, from the way back in the beginning days where you just didn't talk about it. And it was like, you know, you didn't tell family because you were afraid of, well, how are they going to react? And it's like, well, am I going to never talk to these people again? There was still all of that feeling. But in the end, they proved me all wrong, which was excellent. I mean, it was, it was good. We got pictures after the show of all of us together, both sides of the family, because the cousin that I told that the family camp is my mother's side. And then the other side and my father's side was there. So it was kind of, it was really, really nice to have participation on both sides of the family. It was really, really important and extremely emotional for me. So as, as we move on to talking about the next questions, you know, I just sort of in passing and your family sat there and watched as I portrayed your mother on stage. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah. And the interesting thing about it all none of us have ever actually spoke or talked about the performance at all. But they don't treat you any differently? No. No, everything's the same. But it's just kind of, kind of interesting that we never, after the fact, we never talked about it. Not a word was said. Is that because they're Vermonters? We just don't talk about anything. I think so. My whole family is that way. It's like, okay, it's like, you know, some crisis or something. It's like, you know, you deal with it or you, you, whether it's a crisis or whatever it is, like a wedding, maybe or something like that. And then you just don't talk about it again. And that's, that's just the way it is. I mean, from what you share during this interview, that's very much in keeping with the family tradition that, you know, there are these issues. There are events that occur. You live through them and you sort of work through them together, but you never really talk about them. Right. It's like, okay, that's done. That's over. Let's move on. Next crisis. Yeah. So Graham, talking about the next time, if you were offered a similar opportunity in the future, would you accept it? Yeah, I think I definitely would. I don't see why not. I think it's always worth it to like revisit stories like open over again and to expand. Right. Obviously, I've grown, like if, if this whole group of same people were like approached again, and it was like, what if we do this, but like a different version, I'd be like, yes, I'm there. So, so you're ready for standing in this place 10 years later? Yeah, that sounds really cool. So Kim, I know, I, I know that, you know, just asking you this question is a little silly because Kim not accepting an invitation to be on stage, but, but what you went through in knowing what you now do, if you were offered a similar project, would you buy in? Yeah, I think I would. I would definitely concur with, you know, it's this particular group was amazing, but I also came out of the show thinking, why am I not writing more about my own personal story as a playwright? And that was something that shifted for me, like I don't need more to write this story, but she's a great playwright. And she wrote her story, which was this, but that's the biggest thing that comes up for me is maybe if I talked about my own queer story, it would be me writing it. And are you in fact doing that? I have been writing some pieces, yes, yes, so we'll see. So, so Timothy, your approach again and said, we want to tell your story, would you accept? I have to agree that if it was the same group of people, it would be a definite yes. Yes. If the players were different, I don't know, because I just wouldn't want, this is a really hard question to answer, because if it was the same group, like we've all said, yes, it would be a definite yes. And I think that's where I went in the beginning. It's like, well, who else are you asking? And then who were you going to interview? Because I just would be afraid there might be conflict between people, unintentional. Nobody ever goes into something like this and says, oh, I'm going to be a pain in the butt today, to everybody kind of thing. But I probably would say yes. Was there any aspect of having done this and lived through it and then gone back into your life that there's something that's changed or something that was unexpected that occurred as a result of having been in this production? Absolutely. For me, it was gaining confidence in the fact that I can tell my story. And if it gets a little emotional, it gets a little emotional. That's okay. That's the big piece. And so now it's like, you know, I have no problem talking to people about my life, who I am. I hate to use this phrase, but I'm going to use it anyway. It's like, you know, I don't run around advertising it because I feel in today's day and age, in theory, we shouldn't have to. But I think that's more of a Vermont thing than a national thing because there are still states and people around this country that, you know, it's not like here in Vermont. Well, I know we have issues in Vermont that I've looked at it as relatively a safe place to be who we are, you know? And so if we can get our story out, if we were to, you know, if ask to do it again, if it helps one person feel like they're not alone, then that's it. That's, then it's successful. And that's kind of what I came away from this at is being on stage with all of us, different ages, different stories, different backgrounds. The common thread was, you know, all from Vermont. And it's like, okay, I truly, you know, in 1989 was I'm not here, I'm not the only one in Vermont. Because I think a lot of us think that growing up and it's like, I'm the only one like, well, no. But at the time we didn't know that. So that's, that's the biggest thing I came that I learned from this. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Graham, anything that, you know, from having experienced this and then stepping back into your life, something that was unexpected or the impact that this had on you. So throughout the show process, and then after going back into my, my regular life and all the things I definitely had, and still have a deeper understanding of Vermont and Vermont's queer history. There's so much of our stories that goes like, not well documented or not documented all unless you live through it. And I had no idea about like, take back Vermont and all these different things. And so it's sort of, because they don't teach you that Kim is making faces, they don't, they don't tell you about that in school and like the different impacts. And so I had like a better understanding of like, why some town, like just an understanding of, yeah, this town is a little bit more like this, because this specific parts of history and like that stuff happens in Vermont. And yeah, it just more appreciation. And then obviously, like Tim said, I'm like, Oh, thank God, there are like more of us. There's so many of us. I'm so glad. So you get a sense of history and culture and heritage that you didn't even know was out there waiting for you. Okay, Kim. Yeah, I know I'm making these big eyes when you said you didn't know about take back Vermont. I'm like, every time I drive from Northfield home to Burlington, from Montpelier to Northfield, there's this sign that is completely faded now, but it used to say take back Vermont. And I just remember living through that. And, you know, you've gone to outright Vermont and I was doing running support groups before you were born probably. And, you know, Howdy, who was in the show was the person who got it all rolling in this sense of continuance and generational connection is exactly what I got. And I missed it as soon as it was it was done. I was always glad to run into Graham in town. Hey, you know, to see people. And I miss it now. And I'm like, I miss all those guys, we've got to get together. And I think that you and I Keith talked about this a lot during the show, which was, yes, we've, we've, you know, supposedly won all these rights. And what we sometimes lose is this cultural connection that is a sub. What is it? It's sort of a result of being ghettoized or having to be in safe places. And now how do we shift that so we can be who we are, but we can also have that sense of community. Yeah. And so hearing you say that you didn't know about take back Vermont makes me go, you know, there's a reason that we have all of these stories in this one piece. It does give a sense of the history. We need more of that. Yeah. Big time. So with that, I want to say thank you to the three of you for spending this time sharing your experiences. And more importantly, thank you for standing in front of a theater filled with people that you didn't know. And telling a story they may not have heard. And for some people sitting there, it was the first time they saw themselves coming back to them. So thank you. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember resist.