 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. In the recently concluded assembly session, the Government of Tamil Nadu enacted a law to ban online gambling. There were several incidents of people losing money and committing suicide due to their participation in online gambling. To discuss more, we have with us Mr. N. Kartikeyan, a practicing advocate in the Metra Sai Court. He is a specialist in cyber crimes and teaches cyber laws in the Tamil Nadu Police Academy as a guest lecturer. Welcome, sir. Welcome. To begin with, most people are still unable to distinguish between online gambling and gaming. Can you just briefly explain the difference between these two? You know, gaming and gambling, there is a difference. The application of any game played with the application of mind. A game of skill is called a game. A game of chance is called gambling. You know, like playing rummy, you use your cards. The cards and how to assemble a card, how to convert it into a winning situation. It's all based on the skill of a person. Without the skill, no person can win a rummy. So it is called game. Gambling in the sense of using an identical card, you know, like if the people used to play, you know, like Magatha, Ulle Vide, these are the local games to stay played using the same cards. That is, in those games, there is no application of mind. It's a game of chance. So game of skill is called a game and game of chance is called a gambling. Different sections of the population are getting involved in this online gambling, particularly the middle class. Is there any data available on the quantum of money which is being lost in these type of gambling? You know, Google has to report that because in most of the times, you know, these games are played using, you know, applications downloaded from Google Play Store. And Google Play Store, what they do is they have a GPBS system, you know, Google Play building systems. And whatever the money paid, it goes only through the Google building system only. Only if Google gives a report, we'll get to know what is the amount exact amount and what is the amount involved in it. And the analyst and mentor, we can't get any information on this because most of the people who have, you know, already lost their money are affected because of this online gambling. They will never report this instantly. You know, like police officers are never reported in every police station. That's the issue because when it has been reported, it comes on record and accordingly we can calculate it, we'll get the data out of it. If it is not filed, then we don't get any data out of it. That's the current scenario. Are the people reporting about the loss of money in this gambling so that the police can take action on this? It is not only the middle class who play this game. It's also the upper middle class as well as, you know, the high class people also play this type of games. And if they use this money, you know, they won't report this because it will become, you know, a status issue for them. You know, as if, you know, they've invested something and they've lost it and it also reflects on their, you know, status as well as their image. They don't want to tarnish their image for filing a complaint. So normally, we don't report it. Only a few complaints are reported. It's only according to me, there's only an article for NYFAR, you know, like it is not the exact amount which we are getting it. So people have to report that whether they're getting back the money or not. They need to report it. Then maybe we get a consolidated information about it. Victimization of those who are playing these games or losing money or another issue which is being widely reported. Does the government or any other agencies are in possession of such information? See, there are two types of applications. One is the repeated applications from the repeated company. If they play using those repeated applications, they will lose money. They won't earn money. They will lose money. But according to you, there won't be any harassment. Now, there are some fake applications as well. Similar to the genuine application, there are some fake applications in the name of, you know, instant loan or instant credit or something. And once people download those applications into their mobile phone and it will gain access to their contact list and mobile phone gallery, including their cameras as well. Subscribably, what these guys will do is like after, you know, fetching the information from these, you know, customers, they will lend money to them. You know, like you can, you can, we'll lend 5,000 rupees or 10,000 rupees. Using this money, you can play, you know, the online games. And once you lose their game, you need to, you know, pay back this amount. For example, they say that they will lend you about 10,000 rupees, but actually some thousand will be credited. How many 3,000 will be credited as your processing charges or interest or penalty, whatever it may be they call it. And subsequently, they demand that you need to pay about 15,000 back to us. And the interest rate will be about 80% interest rate or 70% interest rate. So even if you couldn't be able to make that, they will start, you know, harassing them by way of mocking their photographs because already they got access to their mobile phone gallery. And they will mock their photographs and send it to their contact list. They're studying with this guy, fetch money from our company and by using your name and they're, you know, you are using your credentials, they have purchased, you know, these applications and other stuff. So you are responsible to make a payment. So a similar kind of messages in various forms will be sent to all their contacts in order to finish their image and reputation among their circle. And because of this, a lot of, you know, suicides have happened. We have seen a lot of cases like this. After several incidents of people losing money and several suicides being reported, the government has enacted a law in the assembly. How and to what extent will this law be effective in stopping these kind of illegal activities? It's a very good initiative taken by the Tamil Nadu government, you know, to curb these kind of issues. But however, implementation of this, it is difficult because if any government, you know, any state government passes a law, then implementation will be done within the boundaries. But here it is cyberspace. It's very difficult to, you know, confine the boundaries in cyberspace within the state. And moreover, if you could look into our Indian constitution, there are three different lists out there, you know, state lists, central lists and concurrent lists. Only, you know, the subjects available in those lists can be placed by the relevant parties, such as, you know, either it may be state government or it may be central government. They can pass law only on those subjects. But however, gambling comes under state subject, so only state government has to pass a law to control these kind of gambling. But however, implementation in the sense only, you know, when a state government passes a law, Google will not remove these kind of publications from Google Play Store. Because they need to get information or instructions only from the Ministry of electronics and information technology, which is a central government. But central government can't pass a law in this aspect. So though the state government has passed a law, it is very difficult to implement it because how it can be implemented is only if someone reports that this guy is playing these kind of games or this person has to download these applications. Only if a manual report has been done, then the government can take an action against them. It is not that they can control them remotely or like only based on the complaints they control. But it is not so easy to identify the person who is playing these games, you know, even sitting within the home or they may play something or even as a family member doesn't know what he is doing in his mobile phone. So it's very difficult to implement it. And moreover, banning is not a solution because already, you know, various high courts of this country as well as the Supreme Court already stated that, you know, Rummy is a game of skill. So it is a game. It is not a gambling. So the state government can pass a law only for gambling, not for the game. So Rummy is already declared as a game. It's a game of skill. So even though a state government passed a law on this, easily it can be cracked once the pens and party files are sued before the fight. So central government can have a regulatory body for this purpose. Similar to what we have for movies, BRS and such report. Similar to the gun, we are the central government should have a board and any other applications, what are not only this kind of application, any application, when it has to be uploaded in the cyberspace, Indian cyberspace, they need to get an approval from this particular body. And after getting a certification, then that can be posted in Google Play Store or Apple App Store. If this is the scenario, then we can have a check and balance, you know, all these aspects, and we can control them. It's a regulatory body which can control it. It's not about the banning. Even if you ban it, even the central government passes a law to ban this. For example, if you're banning, you know, Rummy X or Z, then the same company will start another application in the number and name of Rummy ABC. Okay, so banning is not a solution. A regulatory body which has to verify this, a regulatory body consists of technical member, legal member, and the stakeholders involved. That's a public security data part of the body. And after getting an approval from them, then this can be posted in the cyberspace. This is the only solution which can be done. After the government decided to pass the law in the assembly to ban on India, the E-Gaming Federation of India has decided to approach the court demanding the law to be abolished or to be a state. What is your comments on this particular move of this organization? Now, of course, it is expected, you know, like already we anticipate this, you know, normally they will be filing it. Whereas already a similar subject is, you know, in question before the Supreme Court of India. Previously, even the previous government passed a law on this, it was challenged before the metro cycle. And based on the order of the metro cycle, now it has been moved to Supreme Court. The appeal is pending right now. And similar kind of, when the appeal is pending, a similar kind of law has been passed in some level. So again, they can challenge it by citing the previous precedence as well as the pending appeal as well. There is no doubt about it. Has the union government taken any steps to control such kind of applications which are affecting the people? Central government has recently passed the guidelines on, you know, misleading advertisements and endorsement of misleading advertisements. It's a very good issue to take into consideration because, you know, like these applications are already available in, you know, App Store and as well as, you know, the Play Store. But however, it has been endorsed by so many celebrities in this country. Now, based on this endorsement and based on the promotions only, there are a lot of crimes are happening right now. But however, this new guidelines which was passed in June 2022, it's a very good, you know, initiative by the government, which says that if you pause any endorsements, you know, misleading advertisements regarding any type of applications, then it is considered to be an offense under the Consumer Protection Act. The affected party can approach the consumer for this aspect. So it's a very good initiative. As I said, the state government and the laws enacted by the state government has a lot of limitations. What is the way forward in stopping these kind of applications from looting the money of the common people? Central government can have a regular, you know, checks and bans on all this social media, similar to what we have in China. In China, we have a complete control of the cyber states. We need a similar kind of control in India as well because if you could take India, India is one of the largest users of all these social media companies and all these state chains. If we have a control, definitely they are bound to obey this because they don't want to exit from India. They don't want to lose business in India. So definitely if you have any control over that, then that will be a boon for us. It is not only the issues of technical aspects, you know, it is all about how strict we are in this country, you know. We can, you know, live with this issue to the concern, tech chains itself, you need to find a solution for this. Technically, you need to identify these kind of issues and you need to report us. It is not our duty to find the technical aspects on this. It is your duty to find it and you need to report back to us. And based on the report, we will take action. If you give a false statement or, you know, a fabricated statement before the ministry, then the accordingly actions should be taken against them. Definitely we will have a checks and balance to control this, but only the central government has to take any shape. Because according to section 69 of information technology, government has the power to intercept, monitor and decrep any information. So based on this provision, government can initiate any kind of action against these, you know, social media companies or tech chains. Creation of awareness is another aspect which is being widely talked about when it comes to these kind of frauds, you know, leading to the loss of money of the people. So will creating awareness help in any way in countering these kind of problems? Awareness, we can create an awareness, but there can't be a solution because I say, you know, you would have seen a lot of OTP fraud cases. It is happening in this country for more than 10 years and banks are also creating a lot of awareness on this. But each and every day we are using hundreds of complaints on that. Awareness alone is not a solution. Awareness is one of the park, but however, we need a regulatory body to control this. It's not about controlling the human being, it's all about controlling the technology companies. So we need to take initiative to control these kind of technology companies rather than controlling the people. So as I said, there are a lot of technical complications and limitations of laws enacted in keeping control of these kind of applications. So should the UN and government be more proactive in coming up with new laws to prevent these kind of activities? No, definitely we need a completely new law because according to India Information Technology Act was enacted in the year 2000. Subsequently it was amended in the year 2008. But the technology which was available way back in 2000 and the current technology is completely different. There is huge difference. So when the technology upgrades, the legal system also has to be upgraded and accordingly the law has to be enacted. So we are expecting a new kind of property. Even we don't have a privacy law in this country. After the independence of 75 years, we don't have a privacy law. But all of our private information is gathered by these applications in the name of giving access to your mobile phone, contact list, cameras, everything. So we need a law which is also pending. You must be aware of PDPA, Personal Data Production Bill which is pending for so long. Several bills were presented before the parliament and it was got lapsed repeatedly. We need a stronger enactment for this purpose to control the cyber space.