 We can have the conversation and then hopefully we'll achieve quorum At some point if not, then I think we need to take it to I mean we can do the straw hole You know here and but then maybe take it to email Okay, sounds good so quick update no real update on hackfest planning, but we are still Assuming that Chicago is going to work September 21st and 22nd just finalizing some details there Hoping to have that completely locked down very soon, but just in final discussions there Europe if you haven't submitted your Preferred date patterns for that for the final hackfest of the year Please go into the doodle poll and do so at your earliest convenience. I don't think I've done the Europe one yet Did was location? Specified or mentioned nope it wasn't we're really just looking for A broad date patterns that work best for folks so then we can dive into location from there. Yeah And if there are preferred locations or if anyone has venue space in those Definitely reach out to us as soon as well. There was From an IBM side of things I know that the team in Zurich was interested maybe yep And I'm chatting with them already. Okay All right, that's all on hackfest unless anyone has questions there for a Backup to your Chicago. I've ordered you a thread just a few minutes ago where we're looking at some space in Minneapolis So if you're pretty far down the road with Chicago, then that might not be relevant, but Hoping to provide another option there cool. And you know this time or not. We're always looking for future locations. So Whether it's a backup, you know for September or ongoing it's it's good nonetheless Minneapolis in September is way better than It's kind of really the only month you really want to be here I'm just gonna put that one out Unless of course it's Jackson Hole that's a different story Okay Then are we all good with the the hackfest discussion then? All right, let's Transition back to the conversation we left off last week regarding the The annual TSC election process and I think that You know the process aside, which is the dates and you know the the voting You know using the condorset approach and so forth. That's basically not something that we can That we can change but there was you know, I think there was some legitimate discussion last week and You know that the approach of just counting people that have landed a commit here or there everywhere. Oh Yes, can somebody put the Todd the link to the process draft. Yeah, they see put out one second So so the process aside, I think you know the The conversation last week was hey, you know in terms of the list that Tracy had compiled Of people that had landed a commit. There were an awful lot of people who have been making very valuable contributions to hyper ledger from the technical side of things and You know, they're They're their contributions weren't reflected or you know weren't being considered and you know For those who weren't on the call last week again last year. We went through a similar Discussion and we basically said that the work group participation and again active participation in a work group meaning some contribution of some sort whether it's editing, you know, the white paper or proposing and editing a requirement and a use case or You know presenting to the architecture or identity groups and so forth that those you know material types of contributions as well as chairing a working group would would count towards the voting Eligibility and as well as the you know the ability to run for the TSC itself. So You know, we had a further email discussion The end of last week and I think over the weekend I put out a proposal I think this was the only proposal if somebody else put one out and I missed it or You know, please please speak up and post a link into the into the chat, but I think I had one of the The last emails and and and I put out a sort of a formal proposal Which is in the pardon me in the agenda. It's copied into the agenda here Basically, and I think the stupid go-to-meeting thing go away so I can read That in addition to the github Garrett committer data for the preceding 12 months that we would And the project maintainers that we'd also include the list of work group chairs and then from each of the work group chairs collect a list of contributors Again sort of based on the the criteria that I on before active contribution some some something that involved Contribution and and then that would be We would add to that a dispute resolution process So if somebody felt that they weren't included in the final tally That they could appeal to the work group chair remind them what they had done and the technical advocate I think we just have one right now. So that's Tracy And then the final determination we left to the staff to decide whether or not to include the individual who's disputing their Exclusion if you will from the list of voters and so I'd like to put that up for discussion and you know, we can amend this and we can augment it or whatever, but I'd like to just sort of put that out there for a Discussion and and I don't know if we've achieved quorum yet, but Certainly we can have a discussion and maybe take a straw poll if we aren't a quorum We've not reached quorum unless she hunter maker here So I think it looks good. I I would I would like to hear from the pin I don't know if he's on but he's the one who brought it up I thought it was a good point he raised and I think this proposal addresses it at least to my understanding so Just to clarify Chris. I mean we have only one list, right? The least is both the people who have the right to be nominated and the people who actually have the right to vote Yeah, there's only one list. Yeah And there's this mark I'm in favor So any other thoughts Yeah, Mark Wagner, I'm in favor of it. I like it anybody not like it And I mean anybody doesn't have to be a TSC member. Well, that was it wasn't hard Heart was just bringing up an interesting point in chat. Oh, I'm sorry and I pushed all that out of the way So I didn't see it. So what he's suggesting is similar to the work group chairs being able to add names that Maintainers of project be able to add names that one is probably going to be a little harder for That whole appeal process though because Like I'm not sure that I would be able to properly judge Whether or not somebody who appeals and says well, I should be part of saw to its contributor list even though I haven't contributed anything Because I'm not aware of that kind of conversations, right? Unless those conversations are public where I can see that somebody is actually Like doing design documents or something like that. It's gonna be a hard judge to say Well, they appealed in Yes, they should or no, they shouldn't So I was wondering what what the motivation for this would be I mean at the Project level like this where it's around repo Typically, you know code or documentation is what it's all about So I I am trying to understand is that too meant to Catch the case of like what Mika was saying somebody who works in the back and feeds the developers with Informations that to agree them and what not? So, you know, I actually did have a follow-up conversation with Mika about this In email and it's unfortunate he's not here but You know, there's I think, you know, there's a there's a valid statement that you know, some people contribute sort of indirectly You know by virtue of helping to write a spec or what have you and You know, and then that gets translated into code and I think that, you know, again, if there is a spec maybe it should be published and then it's really part of the code, right? You know, you can you can trace it right back To something that's that's that's you know, that's measurable that's objective I think the subjective. Oh, so-and-so has contributed You know, I think as Tracy said well, I could just I could name a bunch of people I suppose and You know, but their contributions are not directly measurable and So then it's just really my word against everybody else's I think that Again, it's not hard to actually make a meaningful contribution whether through a working group or You know contributing to the editing of a spec or something like that That gets posted in a wiki or in the in the code base I think that counts. All right You know, it's unfortunate that you know, as I said in my note that unfortunately the wiki itself is really crappy about Trade tracing who's edited It really only shows you the last edit I suppose in the back end There's probably some way of figuring out, you know, the actual log of edits and so forth, but Media wiki It's just crap. Sorry But Certainly, you know from a from a code perspective, you know specs are They're fair game as far as I'm concerned So, you know, if there is a back-end spec that maybe it should be part of the code base Or at least tracked in the wiki for the project the wiki does actually will show you per page and across the wiki recent Right, but it doesn't show you all of them Brian. Yeah, it does age shows you the old revisions And we can get that from it and it's not media wiki anyway That's that's I don't think Changes in the wiki are one of the challenges here. I couldn't find a way of getting them Maybe like the revision Yeah, when you click on that you get reasons you don't get the whole list and I take it Todd, we're still We Because design strategy architecture all these make up or success factors or any good project All right, I mean Todd, I guess we should just team this up for an email Well, we'll do I'll send that right after the call All right. Thank you Next up is the survey Tracy. You want to pick this one up? Yeah, so Attachments on the line as well. So Catherine Kind of approached me and wanted to run a survey to find out more about the developers She was thinking about focusing it on the Hyperledger's composer in that community But thought that maybe we might want to expand that to to the entire community and she's a great idea So I'll just you know give kudos to Catherine right off the bat The idea really is to find out more about who is part of the Hyperledger community so that we can better serve them right make sure that we're providing the right sorts of tools and infrastructure and That things are actually working for them. So as you've seen I've put out just a draft of kind of the survey of what we're thinking about and Yeah, I I really just I think it's important that we understand who's part of the community and the diversity of our community and Really helped to make sure that they are getting what they need out of us Thanks, Tracy. So Catherine you have anything to add? No, I think Tracy's Tracy's really captured it I think it helps us not just from for the technical community But also for how we get the word out about the projects that we're working on and as we get to the next Iterations of each of these projects make sure we're kind of going in the right direction. So I'm really I think this is a great opportunity to really learn a lot more about Kind of who's using it and how we can serve them better. So thanks Tracy for all your help on this. I really appreciate it Thanks, so yeah, my only comment was on the first question, which was the the question about sexual orientation and It just seemed so out of place because there were no other sort of No other questions like that about you know, whether it's Ethnicity or age or the crotchety old man or whatever, but And It so it just sort of stuck out. I think if we had the others I Appreciate and I understand, you know the the point about wanting to Understand diversity that I think that's important But it's because it was the only one and it was the first one it just sort of like I said, it just sort of stuck out So which other ones should we add should we have? race there as well Certainly or you know, if not that then location, right? Where are you right? Are you in China, India? Pakistan so there is a location question There's a country, okay Do you want to ask about age? Why not ethnicity? What what are the objects? What are the objectives of the survey? I mean, you know community normally set up by Volunteer and people go there and do things mostly anonymously To contribute but you know, why why would we want to know ace and race and genders and location and all of that We want to understand the diversity of the community as much as we want to understand I mean from both the the technical questions we're asking but also, you know, who our community is about and it is a It is a priority to try to understand You're from the very least from the gender perspective that has been brought up to us by by members of the governing board as well as by journalists and others and it is a Certainly a hot topic in our industry So that's that's why it didn't stick out as the question to ask. I Think adding one or two others around, you know, age diversity and ethnicity might might be appropriate as well And if it helps it stick out left, that's fine Also, we're adding an opt-out if people don't want to answer demographic questions. They don't have to expect another possibility Questions, yeah, none of the demographic questions are required. I made sure that those were not a required Sort of things so that if people were not interested in providing that information they could skip them So And However, some of these attributes can be optional We have to decide which ones are optional a For the option is that matter how old a contributor is as long as you contribute But race, you know, it's one of these things that I think just a clean So but some of them can be optional Maybe having a little Introduction as to why we are even asking that would help because when you explain what you just said It's a hot topic in our industry. We're trying to find out in a diversity in our community It makes it a bit more or less surprising at least So maybe if that were in the survey then people would understand why we're asking and feel more comfortable Well, because the other the other end of this Means that you know once we collect this information and if people voluntary provide information How would we protect this kind of information and so on and so forth, right? This is an anonymous survey. It's an important thing And if you have to be careful about not asking too many questions that may make it easy to De-anonymize but being anonymous I think there's some protection there. It's one reason to ask fewer rather than more questions Right, okay Just a quick question here if the governing board really wants to know the kind of the diversity metrics Can we get them to tell us what they want to know because that seems like the the easiest thing to do here? I Can say that the the one specific thing that they brought up is gender diversity they haven't brought up diversity in other ways Right, but that's with regards to contributions. Yes With regards to the community Yeah Contributions of all sorts right Yeah, actually, I'm not clear on who the survey will be targeted to now that you mentioned that this is this is active Contributors or this is just anybody who's using the code Yeah, but you know the another comment that I have here is this I Think it's okay with me for the survey to be Anonymous and hyper ledger community as a whole because at the beginning someone mentioned either Tracy or Catherine mentioned that You know, we are going to take the survey first and target the Composer project I'm very leery of that, you know as as as we start to get you know surveys into a narrow Project like Composer like fabric like sort of like We start getting this kind of you know information that we stop, you know It's not good for the community in saying that you know Composer is more diverse than Done fabric more, you know And so things like that that I don't like to see it surface up and people stop and I think Tracy been Tracy and I agree with you All right, Tracy and I think are absolutely on the same page as you really what we're trying to get is an overall sense We sort of I'll admit we started with Composer, but as we thought about the hyper ledger community more broadly We thought we want to target really anyone that's touching hyper ledger to understand who that is So, you know probably most interested in developers because they are a lot of who is interacting and building Both contributing to the code and building on top of it, but there are obviously a whole host of People from you know different roles including marketing legal and just getting a sense of what that broad community is like I think would be really helpful For a variety of different initiatives So, you know as we as we go that it's meant to really be as inclusive as possible There's some specific questions around what is your role? How are you connected to hyper ledger and I think that'll give us hopefully a snapshot of you know Where we are at this point in 2017 With the community and the the most important part is just driving people to respond to it And so making sure that we get it in the right channels that we get You know a decent sample size because I think that's more than anything that's important If we only have the people you know the 26 people on this call respond We're going to have a very skewed perspective Versus if we're able to get you know the broader community that has a couple hundred people Um, I think that's potentially you know compelling stories for For the for the Linux foundation for hyper ledger and for everyone that's working on this Who's who are we soliciting to participate in the survey? So in terms of the channel that Tracy and I have talked about We thought we would put it on the hyper ledger website and Tracy correct me if there's anything I meant rocket chat The mailing list And then we thought and then we really wanted to solicit your perspective in terms of other channels that we should use to to get this out to the community I think um the The mailing list doesn't necessarily capture everybody brian doesn't Kevlin Keep a list of all the the contacts Maybe we should share it with all the member contacts Yeah, I mean we can certainly share it with the with the comarque with the sponsoring members of hyper ledger I think the developers are just as relevant too Well, I mean, but if we should share it with them then they and ask them to share it with their their teams or whatever And then what would be a complete definition of community with that include The corporations out there internationally As opposed to our more Internal community or You might say the the more direct organization And I think the survey was written with developers in mind um And I think the the hardened soul of the community is the developer community the sponsors are important um and The non-technical working groups are growing and important. Um, and I'd like to include them but as as In the in the bucket of contributors, which is why we've you know included them in the in the vote, for example I think it's roughly the the same list. I mean for me, it's it's there's some synonymous there between uh, um the previous conversation and this one, um, which is uh Yeah, I think we are kind of defining um, you know with a little more christmas Who who the developer community is who the the hyper ledger community is and that's that's not a bad thing at all But I I guess I guess I take that particular view That's a perfect. Yeah, and I think I think that's why we were thinking about things like rocket chat the mailing list, right is because there are there are a lot of people on rocket chat who are Trying to use our different projects, right and trying to understand them and um, you know I I think they deserve a voice in this as well as the people who are contributing source code, right? It's the people who are spending time with your projects and trying to Use them. I don't think we should overthink this one because It's completely voluntary in the first place. So all the people with privacy and security concerns should not take the survey, of course but It's a choice. It's anonymous. It's anonymous too. The most important thing um, heart is here talking about linkability which I mean You know, of course Anybody can read uh, whatever he has said on these chat windows if they care to look at the uh So anyway, it doesn't matter the the point is that we are all participating in a kind of a semi-public way The recordings of all these conversations are available You know, there's video from All kinds of You know the meetups available. So I don't I don't think we should overthink this I think it should be just You know instead of debating this to depth We should really Say, okay. This is a survey The sample size is important We'll publicize it through all channels Let's look at the results Let's promote it I agree with you. We've been like my point about the the introduction to the first question the gender is You know, I would be worried that people start looking into the survey Look at this question say what the hell is this and they just shut it down because they don't want to Have anything to do with this So I you know, I thought that explaining a little bit why we have been asking this We'd get them over that and say if you don't feel comfortable feel free to Skip that and then you just avoid people from being turned off right of the bat So I think from a structure perspective we can put that at the end of the survey So it's not the opening we can put in a quick like this is why we're asking you questions And if you prefer not to disclose check this box and you don't have to answer And hopefully that gives that that doesn't turn people off from the start Hopefully get some good information and then for those that are concerned that don't have to respond That's a good idea That's great Okay, do you guys have any specific or strong opinions on things like timing or other channels that we should consider? Okay, I'm going to take that as a no So great out in the middle of summer Yeah, I think I was sorry. I was just coming off from you. I would I would think kathryn and tracy Or maybe brine or you know Somebody could post a blog and say hey, we're trying to figure out who our audience is and Who our community is and we'd like you to just as another me because some people just subscribe to the blog great idea Yeah, we can do that and tracy. Maybe once you get back from vacation we can Get there something going Cool Yeah, on a loosely related Item the On on rocket chat and we were just talking about Understanding who we're we're reaching and so forth. I'm a little uncomfortable with the Anonymity or pseudo anonymity out on rocket chat I think it would be easier to understand or better or kind of transparency if we had email addresses visible in the Profile of each participant there I actually agree with you then I find that a pain it is just You know, it's not clear to me whether it's intentional or not but people You know, it looks like people are hiding even though. I don't think that's necessarily what they mean to It's sometimes a pain to figure out who am I talking to there? Right, what's the detriment to supporting anonymity in the chat? I mean, what problems does it cause other than a minor annoyance to I don't know who this person is? Well, there's there's probably a few things. I know some people are probably on there with some kind of Agenda that would be more clear. I think it's also more clear as a If somebody is taking a position on One of the projects it's more clear if they're actually associated with the project if there's some other Weekly identifiable facet there like their email so I'm going to push back on this one only because from a security perspective Anonymity tends to be a very important aspect Um For people who are coming to us saying hey, I think I've found a bug or I think I found a you know a security vulnerability A lot of security researchers like to carefully maintain their anonymity For many reasons and I would also argue that Knowing who they are It doesn't really matter if they have an agenda agenda, I guess, you know, or it doesn't matter if you know who they are and they have an agenda Sorry, I'm trying to explain here like It's okay. If someone comes into an open source project with an agenda, right? Yeah, I think it's okay. Whether they're anonymous or not parents Um Yeah, anyway, I have a question for Brian here Brian from the city Direction, what is the last line? I'd say for collecting the sort of community-based data. I was going to use of you Um by you might say the executives it's Could you explain a little more so we get a feed by how that is And therefore if it's more strategy and direction, then it's it's important that we have to survey I'm just make certain I said optional as we see fit I'm sorry. Were you asking about the strategy for the um This question around anonymity of rocket chatter around the survey in the survey and community. Yeah, what is the rationale for selecting that data? Um, so much strategic perspective if there is one So the survey is to better understand ourselves and to ask are there uh, I mean, this was this was something that Wasn't isn't being driven top down. This is something that um, I you know What some of our participants are are leading and saying that they want to see right? So But I think we can it's not easy to answer questions about um You know the diversity question the distribution of interest across different languages the distribution across the world Uh of the contributor pool. I can answer the question about distribution of Geography from our sponsoring numbers, but I can't answer that about our developers unless we actually ask the question, right? So Um, it's not it's not hard to understand. Um, and if somebody were to say hey, there's a diversity issue Without without meaningful numbers. We can't either actually respond or or if we try to you know Make a change to improve that number. Um, there's no way to objectively measure that I uh, without something like this, right? So Uh, it's it's it's not very controversial that that organizations or communities would want to Ask themselves a set of questions like this. Um issues around confidentiality of the data and You know mitigating bias and other things certainly much more relevant and I'm happy to see those issues brought up here So, uh, but uh, hopefully the the the need for something like this is uh self-evident So returning quickly to the the rocket chat thing. I appreciate Dave's viewpoint on providing anonymity Options, I think that there's probably enough ways to get Email addresses that if somebody really wants to hide their identity they can But we basically be Putting any small burden in front of somebody who felt That they needed to be anonymous there and and that might still make a little bit of difference to us that that if most people aren't trying to work around that that We have better sense of who's actually communicating on rocket chat and then the other Aspect being that I think everybody has to provide an email address in order to get a linux foundation id So they're not anonymous to the linux foundation That is the point Dan that That I agree with Dave that on the on the first In the on the face of it They you know people should be anonymous, but if they engage in egregious conduct like trolling and Talking, uh, you know talking shit basically Then they should be unmasked there's Or kicked out even because it depends on what what they what they do But if they're just engaged in day-to-day activities and they're contributing You know, they have the option of remaining Anonymous and I support Dave here Yeah, if someone really wants to be anonymous on this then you're going to log into tor You're going to like run tor browser. You're going to create your email account and linux foundation id Through tor and then you're going to start signing up and doing everything So So, you know, even if you just If you just sign up directly from your home computer and use a linux foundation You know, and you're just a pseudonym and people are still going to be able to de-anonymize you in theory Um, I I guess that was my large larger point here is like that the only benefit That is being proposed here is that, you know trolls would be unmasked and you like You know, we could try to police our chat to keep trolls out But as you just pointed out if someone's intent is to actually troll they're not going to be so stupid It's to log in on anything that's going to allow them to be unmasked, right? So it's not going to solve the troll problem And it creates a problem and somebody who's abusive well But even then they're going to probably use some anonymity tool and then then the Then what you're doing is you're adding a benefit or sorry adding a barrier to entry that doesn't really result in the benefit you're seeking Do you see I don't want to suggest that there's even necessarily a troll problem that needs to be addressed. It's it's it's something that's Less severe than that. It's just it would be nice to have more transparency there It helps you understand a little bit where somebody is coming from or Be able to understand that the person that's committing out or you know submitting a pr Something is the same person that's in in chat and if somebody Wants to avoid any of that. They still have all those mechanisms that that heart throughout Um, so I don't think it necessarily provides a harm if we make the email address visible But it provides a transparency benefit Okay, I mean I would argue just ask them. I mean if there's a question ask them like is this you who's submitting this change request? I don't know. I'm Sorry, Dan. I I'm very jealously guarding the ability to act anonymously because our entire world is going in the opposite direction And um, I think it's going to be a big problem in the near future. So um I I would like us to see Us like as an organization supporting anonymous action, honestly And it's my own personal bias. I'm just going to say that's my own personal bias just because I I like to be able to be anonymous online I mean, I I don't want to Sorry, we'll probably have one more on this. I don't want to hijack the agenda here I know we still have the project recording thing to discuss, but maybe we can take an agenda item for uh next meeting to Maybe finalize a decision on this So it's Richard here just listening to this debate. I mean the the the key thought that strikes me in any kind of community And not just the bucket chat one here is I'm actually less concerned about there being a valid email address because that's That's easy enough to to spoof when you use a personal one and no one really knows who you are but um, but um, but I do find it extremely useful for a sig to be able to um Correlates contributions over time. So knowing that somebody um, who's who's commented in my head built up a reputation as a sensible or Or constructive that when somebody with that same idea is commenting later That it's the same person and I can then map that to um to poor requests or contributions So provided there's there's stability of identifier over time and across relevant platforms then then I'm happy But if we don't have that there's not a problem for me, but if we if we do then that's okay for me Uh, it's kind of contentious subject, but I would say it all depends on how the data is to be used I mean we are collecting data here So if having an email address because this is internal data to the organization of hyperlensing or The little foundation whichever way you want to look at it. If that day was going to be used for different purposes Whether it's a survey whether it's to understand analytically how our consumer environment of immunity Uh, it's associated with different types of most projects. There's so many use cases to comply as long as you have the right data So it may be the email addresses shouldn't be used for months. As you've done this It should be a mandatory membership requirements if one is using chat or any other Appledger that So Okay, well, uh, again, thanks for accommodating the segue everyone and the the side discussion here and probably get back on the uh, regular agenda Yep. So the next uh topic is and I lost my place here Uh reporting so that's tracy again Yeah, so uh regarding the project reporting thread So last time we talked I Was hoping to get some responses on the thread So far that thread has been silent. Uh, and so really want to make sure that we're we're making progress towards Allowing the the tsc to understand the state of our projects whether they're In a healthy state whether that development is happening in the public Whether development is happening at all And and so really we're just I guess really call out for if we are going to have a discussion on the mailing list How can we make some more progress here? So again, you know going back to the reporting my only feedback was I didn't think that monthly was I mean unless again, we can get most of this stuff sort of collected and then we're just adding in Some highlights. Um, I saw monthly was a bit A bit much So if we change that to quarterly then the The proposal would be acceptable I think so And you know again, I I do think we have to I mean, I think there's a certain amount of specific Specificity and you know the types of metrics that we're looking to collect on on the projects But we can work through those You know, how do we automate those things? Yeah, let me know Tracy if you need me to to reply to the list or verbally here is fine I think the only the only thing I remember sticking out besides the the frequency that chris just covered is the I think one of the first items there was email addresses and Uh, maybe ironically with with my last comments the the email address is there um I haven't found those to be a good uh Identifying quality, let's say so, you know trying to if we're trying to say that that if you've got 400 gmail addresses contributing on a project That means that it's not Substant Exclusively from a single company that doesn't really tell you that because a lot of those People might be using their gmail accounts instead of their corporate addresses Yeah, I I tend to agree with that dan. I mean certainly you know with I try and track, you know, who's contributing to fabric and I try and disambiguate between people's gmail addresses and maintain a list of aliases and so forth, but um You know the reality is in open source a lot of people when they do contribute whether they work for a company like intel or ibm or adachi or anybody else um oftentimes they use their personal Email account as they contribute either because maybe they're not contributing as a function of their day job and Or because they want to carry that You know, they want to they want to carry that sort of resume with them if they go from one company to another And so a lot of people in open source tend to value their their personal technical eminence as And and so they they they tend to sometimes just avoid using their corporate email For that reason and so You know, again, I don't know if we can You know, I think to the best of our ability we should try and figure out, you know How do we how do we sort of know that indeed? You know as you pointed out that just because we have a bunch of gmail addresses that they're not all from the same company Um, but by the same token, I think we do have to respect people's um choices in that regard so Yeah, I I agree. I I don't think there should be a requirement that people submit under a certain kind of email address It's just I that's not a field that I would bother tracking because of those things that you just listed Yeah Um, okay. I think we're potentially talking about two different things um, we're we're talking about the The project update that uh, I just pasted a link in the chat about um Which doesn't ask for email addresses Uh, it does ask for a contributor diversity, but that's not like they give me the list of email addresses, right? So on the project updates what I would like to say is, you know, when we started with the tsc We said we shouldn't have those calls become like just status report calls because that would be boring And I think we've successfully done that at the same time. We have maybe gone a bit overboard in that We we do not have much reporting at all except when something really big happens No matter how much I would like to be able to follow more of the other projects than fabric that I'm directly involved in It's hard and if it wasn't for the uh hack fest where we learned a lot about what's going on at other projects You know, we wouldn't have much information So I think it would be nice to find the right balance so that we have some kind of reporting to you know To know more about what's going on elsewhere Okay, so I think we've beaten this horse to death Fast approaching end of job here. So unless there's any other agenda items, I think we can give people four minutes Thanks everyone guys. Have a good day