 In this video, you'll learn about the three types of public services that keep our countries running and how you, as a service design professional, can design for them. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Sally. This is the Service Design Show, Episode 169. Hi, my name is Mark Fontijn and welcome back to the Service Design Show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are those hidden and invisible things that make a difference between success and failure all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet? Our guest in this episode is Sally Halls. Sally is the head of the Policy Lab in the UK. Having years of experience working in the public sector, Sally is going to share a different side of service design with us today. Let me introduce this episode with a question. Think for a moment about all the public services you use in your country. What comes to mind? Getting your driving license, extending your travel documents, maybe voting registration or paying taxes? These are all public services provided by our governments. Now also think about the day-to-day services running in the background that keep our cities running smoothly. Like keeping our roads safe, providing education and doing garbage collection. All services that our governments are tasked to do. Now imagine not having the right policies in place to secure our economy, protect our country or even allow you to travel freely. Well, this brings us to the topic of this episode because you're going to learn about the three types of public services that need to be designed for and how the differences between these types of services impact you as a service design professional. So if you stick around until the end of this episode, you'll know how to design services that people haven't explicitly asked for, how service design professionals are bringing the voice of the public into rooms of policymaking and how you can find fulfillment in your work when working on multi-year projects of which the impact isn't immediately clear. Well, that about wraps it up for the introduction. Now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Sally Halls. And welcome to the show, Sally. Hi, good to be here. Yeah, excited to have you on. Interesting topic. I don't think we've covered it that many times will explain what the topic is in a second. But Sally, the first thing I always start with in these conversations is a short introduction to give some context to who we are listening to. So could you share a shine a light on who you are and what you do these days? Yeah, sure. So I'm Sally Halls. I am a service designer. Currently, I'm in a role where I'm heading up the policy lab at a government department and that enables us to bring service design methods into the policymaking space. So we get a very different experience of service design and a very different experience of the kind of services that we work on. Yeah, quite a unique environment from what I already learned from you in our prior conversations to this conversation. So I'm looking forward to exploring that a bit more before we do that. We also have a lightning round. I have five questions for you to get to know you a bit better as a person next to the professional. Just the first thing that comes to your mind and we won't dive deeper into them. But let's see where this takes us. Are you ready? Yeah. All right, Sally, what's always in your fridge? Always in my fridge. Butter and oat milk, I think. All right. What's your favorite holiday destination? Oh, any kind of a warm beach with a sea that I can swim in. Yeah. Especially now that we're recording this in the middle of winter. If you could recommend one book, which book would you recommend? I am reading at the moment. I'm reading Hello World, How to be Human in the Age of the Machine. And that's by Hannah Frye. And it's really fascinating. It's all about data science and algorithms and actually how they're currently being used in our society and really helping me to think about how we can start to kind of bring some of those principles into our work. Link in the show notes, as always. Sally, what did you want to become when you were a kid? Oh, the first thing I remember wanting to be was a librarian, which is not very exciting, but I've always been a big reader. So I guess it opens your horizons, right? And last and final question, which is a tradition here on the show, is do you recall the first time you learned about service design? Yeah, I think it was when I was studying or when I was in my first job. So I actually studied industrial design and back then, service design wasn't really a thing. It was just starting to be a thing. And you kind of heard it, you know, heard it whispered about on the grapevine and I was very intrigued by it and and was very fortunate enough to actually be able to become a service designer over the years. And here we are. Everybody seems to have a story around their encounter with service design, which is which is quite interesting. Thank you for sharing the answers to the lightning round questions. Definitely give some context. But let's transition into the theme and topic of today. Like I said, it's something that surprisingly hasn't been covered a lot in the conversations on the show as far as I can remember. And that is we're going to explore different types of services. Somehow we don't get to discuss what services actually are on the show a lot. We do talk a lot about the craft and the tools, the methods, the conditions in which service design takes place or in which it can thrive. What we rarely actually talk about services. So this is going to be our opportunity to do so. And you framed it really nicely by giving I would say a framework of three different types of services. Maybe we can start with that. And what are the three services types of services that you distinguish? So I think that normal normal services are things that we kind of identify as services of what I would call transactional services. So there is a very clear ask from the user of I am trying to achieve something and I will, you know, perform some actions and may pay you some money in order to achieve that outcome. And I think that's probably the bread and butter of service design work, really. And I think services are quite difficult to talk about anyway, because they are so intangible, aren't they? And so it becomes quite difficult this conversation to have when you are trying to kind of pin down what a service is. But, you know, typically we're talking about, you know, I want to access healthcare, I want to see a doctor, I want to be able to save my money with a bank or, you know, I want to be able to purchase a book and have it arrive within 24 hours, right? Which is, you know, what we are all used to and expect these days. But once you start to move away from the private sector and those kind of services and you start to think about public sector and what the government delivers, you start to encounter some slightly different services. So in the department I work in, we deliver what we call, what I call preventative services. So these are the services that help us to, you know, live our day-to-day lives and, you know, maintain a kind of normal state of society, as you would expect. So, for example, you know, I am able to walk the street safely. I am able to, you know, go out and feel confident that I can come home again, you know? And these are the kind of services that there is no explicit ask from the user. There is just the expectation of what the norm is. And actually it's when these services disappear, when you don't deliver these services that then you start to notice that these services were being delivered for you. And then the third kind of service that I wanted to talk about was around, from a service design perspective, they are an arms-length services. So there are services that you are commissioning. So actually, you know, government departments, they actually commission a lot of services. They don't deliver those services themselves. They ask, are there agencies, are there bodies, are there companies to deliver those services? But as a service designer, the tools that you suddenly have to design those services become very, very different. And so I thought it'd be interesting to talk a little bit around, you know, what do we do as a service designer? How do you ensure that your service is delivering a successful outcome when you're not able to do any of the service blueprinting, you're not able to talk to the users directly yourself? Yeah, because that's the case, for instance, where those services are at arms length and delivered and maybe where the journey is designed by a third party and you don't, like, you're commissioning them, like you said, right? Yeah, so I can imagine that that's a different dynamic. And the preventative services, I do see a lot of them in the public sector. The thing in my head was garbage collection, right? Yeah, that's one of those things that you sort of take for granted almost. Maybe that's a characteristic of these kind of services that you take them for granted. And once they disappear or break down or the garbage collectors go on strike, then you sort of suddenly notice, hey, that was actually consuming a service. And those are these preventative hidden services. And the common ones, like you mentioned, the transactional services are the ones that we are most exposed to as a service design community, right? Yeah, absolutely. And because there is a much clearer relationship with the end user, you have a clarity around this is the user, this is what they're asking for. And I will work through these steps in order to deliver this for you. And I think as soon as it becomes a preventative services or the arms length, that relationship breaks down and that. And so it becomes more difficult to talk about, I think. I have some questions around that. But first, I would love to explore that in our prior conversation and in your notes. I saw that you mentioned something about it. There is some confusion and maybe misconceptions around these preventative services. Yeah, so I think preventative services, they are often discussed in different ways. So within government, I would say they're not traditionally thought of as services and we often talk about them as capabilities. And so, for example, do we have the capability to detect explosives at the airports, for example? And the way in which you talk about things really dictates the way you think about them and then the way that you seek to kind of manage them and improve them. And obviously, we're all very familiar with airports and having to queue to go through airport security. And actually, when you talk about, do we have the capability to detect explosives? Yes, we do. We have all these machines and they're able to scan and what have you. But when you frame it differently, when you start to put humans into that equation, you start to think in terms of can we ensure that everyone can get on their plane and make it to their destination safely without encountering explosives? And can we do this in a quickly and efficient way? And you start to think about, well, what is the human experience of that? How can we better improve that? And you start to think of it much more as a service and through that you can then start to implement service metrics and start to look at customer experience, et cetera. Any idea or clue or hunch on why the language is more focused on capabilities and maybe having the right tools rather than providing a service? Like is there a historic context that explains this? It's a good question. I mean, often these are capabilities that are being delivered by operational teams. And so, you know, you have people who are, you know, performing the same task day in, day out and they're not being seen as, you know, a skilled service that is being delivered. There is absolutely a whole skill set that, you know, these teams need to have in order to deliver those kind of actions and tasks. But because it is being seen as an operation that a government is delivering, I think it then, you know, government services have been going through a bit of a, you know, a revolution over the past half of many years, particularly in the UK. And, you know, there's been a real transition between how we think about our interactions with the public. And so, you know, GDS government digital services, they were kind of, you know, the people that really initiated the change and helped government to think differently about the services that we're delivering for our users. You know, all of our policies actually, they end up being delivered as services and that's how government interacts with the public. And I think it's just a continuation of that. So we started with the most visible services and, you know, it's a slow, it's a slow change. You're trying to move a very big ship and turn the ship around and, and the operational, you know, operational staff and those kind of hidden services are at the back of the big boat, I would say. Yeah. And I've worked in the public sector in the Netherlands on some services and projects and one of the things you often hear is like, it's a monopoly on these services and you can't choose like paying taxes, right? There's just one entity you can go to and the same probably goes for your garbage collection, but you also mentioned that for these arms length services it's harder to talk to the user. I'm curious, what are some of the specific challenges that you see around these preventative and hidden services? Like what makes it more difficult or challenging for services are professional to work on these preventative services? Let's focus on those first. Sure. So I think with preventative services you are, I'm often, you know, designing for the whole public and there is no specific user and so there are no specific needs and so it becomes because you're designing for everybody you're almost designing for nobody, if that makes sense. And so it also then becomes challenging to have those conversations with the service providers with the people who's, you know, buying that you need and whose opinions you need to change to help them kind of understand, well, we're trying to help people, for example, I don't know, with the border force, you know, you're saying, well actually we're trying to prevent the dangerous materials from coming into the country so that the entire population can live in a kind of peaceful, secure, safe country, right? And so it's a very high level objective and that can make it quite hard to then tie the activities that staff are doing, the day-to-day activities with kind of tangible, measurable outcomes. And so, you know, that might be the vision, I guess, and then you need to start to break it down into much smaller kind of objectives and targets where you can then start to tie the activities to those outcomes, that makes sense. Yeah, it makes absolute sense. And like the feedback loop is less strict or less connected or I don't know what the right word is, but you sort of like being at the security and doing border control, like it's really hard to feel that you're contributing to a sense of safety inside the country. Like that's a pretty, yeah, pretty loose feedback loop, right? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, are they getting any feedback, right? Actually, is that feedback coming in? And there are so many other factors as well. It's such a kind of complex problem, right? And so how can you tie this action that you are performing over here to this kind of bigger initiative? What does this mean for you as a service design professional? How do you handle these situations? I mean, it's difficult, right? It's always, a lot of what we do as service designers is often kind of advocating for a different way of thinking, a kind of a mindset that kind of puts the customer first and helps realign the services and how they are being delivered around kind of delivering to those user needs. And it is the same as that. It's just an extension, right? So, you know, we are still trying to achieve an outcome for a user. It's just a little bit more removed, but you can still go through some of those same service design activities and you can really help to kind of, I don't know, even just bringing the conversation into the room sometimes just achieves a bit of a different mindset because until that point, you might find that a lot of the people in the room hadn't even thought about it in that way. You know, they've been looking at productivity outputs, right? Like, how many decisions are you making a week? Or, you know, how many discoveries are you making a week? Or, you know, XYZ, right? And that's a very different metric to how safe do our citizens feel, right? And so, I think, just helping to bring in that bigger picture and helping to kind of elevate the kind of the horizon that people are looking at is probably a really useful role that we play as service designers. Related to this, I'm curious, like, let's say a new colleague starts in your team tomorrow and they are coming from an agency or consultancy side having primarily been exposed to these transactional services, the commercial sector. Like, what would be some of the things that you have them do first or maybe some lessons that you first would share with them in their onboarding process to, yeah, to get them up to speed? Yeah, I mean, it's a challenge that we are constantly and can't doing as we onboard more stuff. So, I mean, the first thing we ask them to do is to kind of go through some of the policy-making training to understand, actually, what do our policy colleagues experience, because that immediately gives you a different sense of what the job is, right? These are the people that we are working alongside and these are the things that they are being asked to deliver and our role is then to support them. We also, you know, we have to brief them in all the different kind of policy areas that we work in and each of those areas comes with a very different mindset, very different culture and that brings with it a different way of working, a different way of engaging with the stakeholders and then once they become familiar with the policy areas, then you can start to talk about, well, actually, one of the ways in which we are working, how are the ways in which we are able to make an impact and I mean, we don't have all the answers. We're still learning, you know, and every day we encounter new problems and new challenges that, you know, we have to feel our way into, but, you know, it's always interesting, that's for sure. Yeah, I can imagine. This, there was one question on my mind that also comes from my experience with working with the good public services is that have you found a way to sort of celebrate success? And what I mean with that is, again, like you said, you mostly notice these services when they start lacking or they start malfunctioning. So yeah, if you're redesigning the garbage collection service, I found that it can be really hard to sort of find pride and find joy and find a sense of fulfillment and that you're doing a good job because like you can almost only fail. What's your take on that? Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I think it's fair to say, you know, it's the work can be quite challenging and it can take a while for the impact of your work to kind of manifest. So, you know, some, you know, explorative work we can do, you know, it might take, for some policy colleagues, it might take a year, two years for that actually to kind of manifest in a policy outcome and then it takes, you know, a further amount of time for then that to kind of actually be experienced as services by members of the public. But you have to take success as, you know, changing an opinion as, you know, influencing a decision towards what will achieve a better outcome. And those are the things that kind of is the ripple effect, right? Actually, if you have someone at the top making the right decisions and the impact of that will then impact, you know, hundreds, thousands, millions of people, depending on, you know, what that service is. So... Yeah, so it's way harder for you to actually evaluate if services are improving because it just can take a very long time before they ripple out into, before the general public starts to see the effect and like who will say that the garbage collection has actually become better? Like that, that's, it's just one... But where your measure of success is, are we seeing decisions being made that are more in line with, I don't know, more in line with, how would you describe that? I would say are the decisions actually, do we think the decisions are actually going to have a better outcome for the service users, for the members of the public? And, you know, a lot of our work is about evidencing the decisions that need to be taking and helping senior people to understand this is what the public are experiencing at the moment. And actually, if we take these steps, that will improve it in this way. And often that can be counter to, you know, what is currently being considered. And so if we can change that opinion, then we have gathered the right evidence and we have created a compelling case to ensure that the right outcomes are going to be met. And when you mentioned evidencing, what can you, can you color that a bit? Like, how do you do that? What is that? Sure, I mean, a lot of it is around kind of understanding what users, members of the public are experiencing at the moment. So, you know, through deep dive interviews, we will often then, you know, kind of, we'll still do the journey mapping, kind of understanding the experience, the end-to-end experience of those people. And typically you'll find that, you know, the service that they're experiencing is being delivered by multiple, you know, agencies and teams and companies and what have you. And so often we are there to kind of help join all of those silos together and to kind of really help those teams to understand the problem in the whole and the different levers that are available. And, you know, policymakers will typically see opportunities in terms of policy opportunities, but they may not necessarily be so connected with how it's being operationalized or how, you know, the kind of digital and technology solutions. And actually, those are all levers that can help, kind of, build momentum and build, kind of, change towards the policy outcomes that they are looking to deliver. So, in my, in the way I would summarize this is, one, is you're bringing in the voice of the public inside the organization even more than it is maybe already there. And the other thing is you're looking at what you're delivering from a more holistic cross department, silo, breaking perspective. That's at least the two things that I'm getting from your story. Yeah, I think that's probably right. Yeah, and then. Thank you for everything. You can use this recording to share through the organization. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense and doing sense making. And then maybe being less involved in actually designing the actual services but providing your colleagues with the right tools, with the right insights to make the right or slash better decisions. Yeah, that sounds like a great summary. Thank you. I'll use that. We've talked now about these preventative services, but you also mentioned services that are at an arms length. I would love to dive into that also a bit. And I think you gave an example at the start, but maybe you can help me to better, even better understand like, what are these services that are on arms length? Good question. So, I mean, typically, as I said, a government department will commission a number of different services. It's not possible for us to deliver all of those services and they can be varying scales. So, the police forces, very large service, right? And at a smaller end, you've got various support services that might be being delivered for much smaller populations. And actually, it's quite a challenge and it's quite a different way of thinking when you start to think about, well, we are commissioning this service and how do we ensure that they are achieving success? So, let's take an example, right? If I was to ask you to, let's say, we've had some news in that, children aren't working to school anymore and we're kind of seeing all sorts of kind of obesity problems with them. And actually, how can we encourage children to start working to school? So, we think, okay, well, we need to, how can we help them? We'll commission some kind of, help walk your children to school service, right? And so, how do I, if I look to commission that service, how do I know what success looks like? Am I just saying, well, I just need you to get the children to school safely? And then you start to dig it down a level and you say, well, actually, I need you to get the children to school safely and they need to be there on time. They need to be escorted by people with the suitable kind of background checks and qualifications and actually, well, how many children can you take? And actually, what are all the kind of frameworks that I need to put in place in order to ensure that you can do your job correctly and safely? And what am I asking you to do? What am I contracting you to do? That makes sense. And what are the outcomes that I'm measuring, right? And actually, the way in which it's, you're still talking about kind of services and principles, you're still looking to kind of quantify the outcomes and measure what is this kind of satisfaction and what have you, but you have to do it at a stage removed. So I need to put things like that in the contract. I need to think about actually how am I governing your service, right? What are the meetings that we have? When do I touch base with you? How are you reporting back to me and how well the service is going? And how can I be sure that what you say is actually true, right? And so you start to think about all of these other tools, I guess, that you have that you need to think about to ensure that this service over here is operating correctly and that we can achieve the outcomes. And there is an extra level of responsibility, I guess, because it's a government department and you need to ensure everyone's safety and well-being. Yes, I think so. Well, my brain always goes into examples that I've seen and you mentioned the walking your kids to school example. Recently, I was in a local hardware store and they provide a service of putting solar panels on your roof. But that is, it's not a service from the hardware store itself. It's done by third party supplier like under the label of the hardware store. And I'm thinking like this might be something similar where you sort of purchase the service through the hardware store, but it's actually delivered by third party. And when we look at that example, what is there to design? You mentioned the contracts, like the conditions, but let me just rephrase the question again. Is there something to design and is that do you feel the work of a service designer still? Yes, because the way you design the contract, the way you word the contract very much impacts how the service will be delivered. So if you can input into that process, you can help to ensure that the service is being set up in the right way. It's being managed in the right way, and the funding agreements and how you look to fund the service can also impact, you know how well that service can operate, et cetera. We often talk about this, but in this case it's even more your designing for the conditions in which the service can be, where you're increasing the chance of success for the service. Yes, exactly. You're kind of trying to create an environment to enable the service to flourish, and you're trying to create an environment that will nurture that service, right? How do you kind of set the right guidelines for that service to kind of travel down, which will ensure that it won't diverge and kind of go off on some kind of random track and actually not achieve the outcomes that you're looking for. It's interesting because we do hear this a lot, and it's not even with arms-length services, but it's also like designing the internal organization in order to deliver a specific service. Like, it seems that as service design professionals, we are doing a lot around designing the environment that enables a certain type of service experience to emerge. And in this case, the service might not be provided by people who are under the same roof as you, but have a different logo and sticker and name on their organization. But in essence, yeah, you're still creating or designing the environment. Yeah, I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. And once you've created that environment, then I think the organization design is becoming a big thing. I think we're seeing increasing amounts of projects where we are being required to think about how the organization is being set up, how it's being resourced, what is the role and remit, and actually what are the responsibilities of the people here than that. And all of that, they're all just new or different levers to ensure that you reach the outcome of what your service is trying to achieve. What would you say is the most difficult part of designing services that you describe as being at arms-length? I mean, you can feel quite twitchy about wanting to get stuck into the actual service, you know? Like it's, you do have to kind of, it's not your role to get involved in the detail of that service. Your role is actually around understanding the parameters to enable that service to succeed and to ensure that those are being designed and then created correctly. And often that means working with staff who are very colleagues who are very far removed from your typical design colleagues. They don't talk in design terminology. They don't necessarily understand your design vocabulary. And so there's a lot of relationship building, kind of communication, trying to understand, when I say this word and you say this word, do we mean the same thing? Are we aligned or are we using the same word? Totally, you know, cross-purposes. And I mean, it's amazing. We are constantly aware of the need to do this and yet we are constantly finding that it's a challenge, isn't it? You know, we are always talking at slightly cross-purposes when we are really trying to achieve the same. Yeah, I don't know if that's a specific challenge to the service design field, but it is definitely a common theme in our practice. What would you say are the common mistakes that you see people making when you, what I found interesting, let me go back for a second, what I found interesting is that you said it's itching to get into the actual weeds of the actual service and that's not your role. So the way I described it in my head is like you have a different design material. You're not designing the service anymore, but you are designing the organization or your design contracts, governance, calendars, meetings, stuff like that. And working with that other design material that has to have a certain interest and you have to also get pleasure out of that. Yeah. What are some of the common mistakes or pitfalls that you see maybe people getting into this kind of work, making when they are not being able to design the actual service, but rather have to work with the other design material, the organization? I mean, I think a lot of it is often counter-intuitive to be working at that level, I would say, you know, as a service and then you do expect to be kind of working in the nuts and bolts of how that service operates. So it feels a bit counter-intuitive in it, therefore feels a bit uncomfortable. And actually that can cause us to kind of perhaps lean back a bit to kind of be a bit like, oh, I need to do this thing, but I'm not, I don't feel comfortable, I don't feel confident. And, you know, as with all of these things, as with all the challenges that causes more issues, you've got to embrace these things, you've got to lean in and get involved and really start to kind of understand these new tools that we have. And, you know, Key to that is always asking questions and I feel like there is a lot of, you know, we can be, especially if we don't feel confident, we can be very cautious about asking questions and not appearing to look stupid and everything else. And actually, you know, no question is ever too stupid, right, the stupid one is the one that you don't ask. And, you know, if you feel nervous about asking that question, think about how you can reframe it, right? Ask the question, but ask it in a way that, you know, that kind of draws out the information, but doesn't, you know, doesn't make you feel exposed and, you know, helps to kind of shed light on the situation where you can really feel able to practice and to add value and to, you know, really bring those skill sets that you have to a kind of very different problem area. Now, if you're open to sharing, I'm curious, what was the last moment that you felt uncomfortable? Yeah, that's a very good question. I mean, we are currently scoping out a new project and it's a new policy area and every time we work in a new policy area, you know, you're working with colleagues who are so knowledgeable about this area and your job is to get up to speed and to read all the reports in the past 10 years and understand all the different, you know, initiatives that are happening and all of these conversations, you're always trying to understand the scoping and the background and the context and it's always a little bit uncomfortable, if I'm honest. It's always, you know, you're always operating in the unknown and that's what we do as designers, you know, we are there to kind of operate in these kind of tricky, unknown kind of problem spaces, but I think I've learned to lean into the discomfort. I think that was my newest resolution with this year was to actually kind of lean into all those moments that I find uncomfortable and to really embrace that discomfort and, you know, and that actually part of that helps us to work better, to perform better, you know, that's like adrenaline does help us to get going. Yeah, that is the fun and exciting part of our work, like being in the unknown, in the unknown, exploring the unknown and being comfortable with the unknown, but it's definitely easier said than done, especially when it comes to yourself. Like, it's easy to tell this to somebody else, to your client that they need to have patience and trust the process and that everything will be all right. But yeah, when you have to share this message with yourself, then it's often a different story. And yeah, yeah, imposter syndrome is very, very near, as always. What? Yeah, if we would have had this conversation five years ago, no, let me rephrase this again. Like, if you were listening to the service design show five years ago and somebody was on the show having a conversation with me about these types of services, what do you wish you would have heard in that conversation? Like, what do you wish you would have known, I don't know, five years ago that you know now from experience? I always found, you know, I always had heard about Policy Labs and I was so excited about the idea of bringing kind of our design methods and ways of working into that kind of, what felt like a very more serious kind of problem space as it were. And actually, I think I was quite intimidated by it. I think it took me a while to kind of reach a point where I felt experienced enough and confident enough to even apply it, right? And actually, you know, the only way to gain the experience is to apply and to get involved and to start working in that area and, you know, if you're even vaguely interested, then, you know, absolutely get in touch with your local, you know, Policy Lab or initiative that you can find and reach out and just show that you're interested and, you know, it's an incredibly exciting area to be working and it is always, you know, every day is really interesting. There is never a dull moment, so. Yeah, yeah, so don't wait till you have the experience to start and gain the experience while you do the work. Are there any useful resources, links that you can recommend for people who want to dive deeper into this topic? Yeah, absolutely. So there is, in the UK, we have a policy design community where, you know, people working in this area come together and there's, so there's a kind of very active blog so I can share the links for that. We also have things like the kind of open policymaking kit, which is also a website which kind of helps policymakers to work in a much more open and kind of explorative way, which is quite useful for designers as well, to understand, well, here are the ways in which we're trying to educate our policymakers, so it kind of gives you the kind of a different way in. And then in terms of kind of government services for those who aren't aware, there's Lou Down's book on good services, it's just a general kind of go-to bible and often kind of gives very good examples of kind of government services. So maybe that's a kind of entry level into kind of public sector work. We've discussed a lot. If you could take an attempt to sort of summarize our conversation up to this point, like what would your summary be? I mean, I think the summary would be that there are many types of services out there which require us to kind of have different relationships with the users and engage with different tools perhaps, but actually the kind of the intention behind how a service designer works is always the same, right? And it's just we need to be flexible and adaptive to kind of work in these new areas and really help others to kind of embrace the service design ethos and mindsets. Yeah, and thank you for sort of highlighting and double clicking on the word service because I think we need to do that more often and even develop a better understanding of the different flavors of services and the different characteristics of the different services. And there's so much more to learn and explore and there's already a lot of knowledge around that. So I hope this got a few people interested to dive deeper into these topics and learn more about preventative services, arms length services and maybe come up with their own definitions and ideas on what kind of services are there out there and what does that mean for us as a service design community? So yeah, thank you Sally for coming on and shining a light on that. I found it really eye-opening to learn about these three types of services and how they impact our work as service design professionals. Hopefully this got you thinking as well. If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to the channel so that you'll be notified when new episodes come out. My name is Mark Fontaine and I wanna thank you for tuning in to The Service Design Show and I look forward to see you in the next video.