 Hey Josh. How's it going? Howdy. Hello. You know with the purple hair and the red walls and the black furniture you're given a real serious goth vibe right now. Yep that's what I was like in high school. I never wore anything but black. Yeah I still wear almost nothing but black. So weirdly I went through this phase in high school where I was monochromatic which included white and I ironed all of my clothing. Wow. I don't know why. I really can't remember why I thought that was a good idea at the time. But it's still the case that if we have to iron anything around the house which is pretty rare in Oregon as you might imagine. I'm the one who does it because. I just a little ironing that I don't know. Well before the pandemic obviously Paul's sister spent the night plus and he left for work before she got up in the morning and she woke up and she asked me where where our iron was and I was like I know we have one because we have an ironing board and that's big so I know where that is. Yeah but I finally ended up calling Paul at work. I was like I can't I can't find it. Surely we have one. And he's like oh yeah it's in the back of the top of the cupboard behind all the cleaning supplies. I just never ever ever iron anything. Yeah now that you mention it I'm not sure where ours is. Because you know Oregon is not exactly a big permanent press state. Yeah. As a matter of fact this was a joke it was always it was a compromise between my sweetie and me is that like you know we're moving to Oregon and yes that means that you can that means that you can wear sweats all the time if you want to. Yup. Because this is always the argument with me is anytime we're going out I was always you know putting on slacks and a press shirt and everything else and looking at her putting on jeans and a sweatshirt and going. Yeah anything other than jeans and a sweatshirt tended to be overdressed in Oregon. Yeah. I used to live just off of Hawthorne Hawthorne and 43rd and my my mom really loved it when she finally figured out that like she could walk to the corner star at the end of the block in her pajamas and she would see other people walking to get their papers in their pajamas and nobody was going to look twice at it. Yeah the yeah well and you know now thanks to COVID I have an entire shelf in my closet of pajama pants. Yup. The L.O.Bean coming out right L.O.Bean was one of those catalogs came out with like a bunch of new patterns for pajama pants. Okay well we'll see if anybody else is going to join us otherwise we just knock this out. Yeah the and okay well the automated recording is on so officially CNCF governance meeting we both know about the code of conduct so no need to repeat it here and the if anybody dials in I will remind them to sign on to the notes. But in the meantime let's go over some things so there's this sub-projects template and this is where it was really useful to have you read it blind because I'm like no that wasn't what it was supposed to say at all so clearly that needs to get changed. Um the um so which I could do from the notes um the um so for the roles here the idea was that that's interesting and I'm just going to look at it in my text editor. So here's what's happening with the steering committee is the steering committee consists of an elected appointed representative from each of the member projects plus a maintainer representative who is generally elected which is which is actually a different person than the representative from each project. So I think we probably need to name those clearly different things yeah because that was obviously not coming across the um and and how is the maintainer council different than the steering committee? So maintainer council is for each project okay so so you've got you've got say five projects under this umbrella each project has their own individual maintainer council is council to grant should we call it maintainer committee um maintainer group I was trying to come up with a word that would make it clear that this group had a governance function. Yeah um but also yeah the problem with it being called council is it kind of makes you think that there's something grand that there's one and it's for the whole project as opposed to being for each individual project. Um yeah so I yeah that's a good point I think maybe maintainer committee might be better than um and I think try to think of ways to ways to sort of solve this I think that when you when you talk about so you talk about you know members of that projects maintainer council and then you start talking about the maintainer council and so it should say yeah that the the projects every time yeah or or each maintainer council or something to indicate that there's multiple of these yeah I think that's where I got wrapped up I was like oh the maintainer council it's a thing for the whole the whole group and then I think maybe what would help is you know maybe if you're just clear about the scope like right up front like somewhere right under that heading that you put something along the lines of there there is a maintainers council for each individual project and then later when you talk about the steering committee you should say that you know something along the lines of the steering committee had you know the scope of the steering committee is across all of the projects or something or something yeah there might be some way to be clear about the scope that might help okay yeah okay maintainer representative and member representative is different what's the difference between those uh who gets to vote for them uh the maintainer representative is voted for by the collected maintainers of all of the projects and the member representative voted for the collective org members of all of the projects in the umbrella project okay um so um the um and you know for a template it's not completely necessary it was something that conveyor wanted um the um and and I thought it was kind of useful to show as an example um of you know what sort of a composition you might have here and then you know and then I've got the note in there saying depending on your project can be one have other kinds of representatives such as an end user representative or cncf sig representative or whatever yeah um the I wonder I wonder if it would be worth simplifying it because I think a lot of what I see more commonly not necessarily in cncf projects but as a community representative so I wonder if we say general community representative instead of both of these instead of trying to distinguish between the two of these okay and then add more details under the depending on your project you might have other kinds of representatives yeah okay and then put that as examples yeah okay yeah um because then they can define them however they want and we're not cluttering up the template with extra definition for things that some projects probably won't want anyways okay or we can even simplify it and not include community representative and include that down in the depending on your project section um I think having I think having a general community representative is a good idea for this kind of project okay um because one of the problems that you can actually end up with oh hey Charles welcome hi Charles please put your name on the notes we're discussing the sub-project template for projects that are sort of umbrellas over a bunch of little projects yeah I was just looking through that yeah the uh and um and Don very hopefully did a blind review of it pointing out a number of things that were not at all clear so we're trying to fix those the um so um yeah so put those in as examples so the advantage of having the sort of generally elected representative there's a couple of advantages of it um the um the main one being that one of the things that can happen in these sorts of projects where you have representatives coming from each sub-project is like the problem that we have in the U.S. Senate where you actually have over representation of the smaller projects and so what almost inevitably happens with the quote-unquote community representative is since they're elected generally by all of the contributors they end up being an additional person from the bigger sub-projects um and and you actually kind of want that right because if one sub-project has 50 contributors and another sub-project has two you want the one with only two contributors to have some representation but you don't necessarily want it to have equal representation and this is a simpler way to do that than maintain or head counting yep no that makes sense um plus it gives you the idea of anybody who can make it to the level of org membership is theoretically um you know eligible for a role in governance which encourages people yeah um particularly because when you have very simple maintainer committee management to the individual sub-projects it tends to not be quite as much turnover as you'd like the um okay so yeah and so that was the idea of that and and I think it works as an example but I think you're right if we don't need to have two different classes yeah um as in the example and if we call it a community representative then it's pretty clear that it's not the person that we're people were talking about for the individual projects yeah I will I will add all those revisions in and um squash merge and then the other one that was confusing um for me is down in the adding projects section yeah and and that was the languages so what I want to say for projects meeting criteria it needs to be consensus of the major contributors um to the project in other words if a project is going to join the umbrella project they need to have a consensus vote of that sub-project of that independent project not a consensus vote of the umbrella project the umbrella project can improve them by simple by whatever their regular voting process is so what so what you're really saying is that the um if I run a project and I want it to be under this group yeah I need to get consensus for the major contributors within my project before I get to the staring committee right okay okay yeah I think that needs to be clarified a bit but now I now I understand because I was like how how does a project vote right well because the problem is with the project is that a lot of projects for aiming to join don't have any defined governance structure yep yep and but and it's also important even if they have a defined governance structure with some sort of majority vote for joining an umbrella project and effectively joining the cncf at the same time yeah majority vote is not good enough yeah right you don't want to have two maintainers who are opposed to it and hold out and leave the project over it yeah avoid it so yeah I think I think what might make that more clear is if you if you're explicit about before before putting it in front of the staring committee all main contributors of your project must have consensus that they want to join okay something like that might be better yep because I think that's what I was getting wrapped around like projects don't vote but the major contributors yeah vote by consensus to be okay the um and the experimental projects thing was was okay by you uh yeah yeah I just I wanted to have a clause in there for you know the predictable circumstance where somebody has a personal project right and there's like one contributor and you don't necessarily want to give that governance representative uh representation yeah um the um okay yeah I thought that made sense okay the um okay so I will do all of those revisions and squash merge um it'll take a little while put that in there Charles you have any comments not yet not for me um also add I need to look at Carolyn's headers for the website stuff um because presumably we should have some process where we approve the template for before it goes in in the general sig so I need to mark it as draft somehow but none of these currently have headers on them so I need to find out what that looks like okay and that'll be good because oh you know general elections maintainer committee maintainer council and sub projects are the three sort of major governance structures I've encountered in the world of open source I mean I guess my other question for this for for this group is once we have those three are we kind of done with our generic governance structure templates I tend to think so unless we start seeing something else yeah I mean those are the three that I know of for for you know open governance structures and beyond that you're getting highly specific I mean there obviously are other things with like company representatives and liaisons and that sort of thing but it's all that that kind of stuff is all very specific to the project yeah okay it would be nice to cross that offer to do list yeah and I thought the sample was really good I mean my my comments are fairly fairly minor aside from clarifying which people get to do which which things yeah yeah well the other thing that we need to we're going to need to do an association with this is I've been working on the contributor ladder thing because this one particularly the sub projects relies on the contributor ladder the elections one kind of does as well and so that really needs to be published as an example yeah the but that's in the other working group so except the contributor ladder is actually kind of a governance document as well particularly if certain steps in the contributor ladder give you voting rights then it becomes a governance document so okay so I'll do all that and I'll squash merge and I'll let you know when it's when it's in there so you can review cool um the other thing that I had for today is so for the conveyor project which is being composed as an umbrella project I one of the things that they want to do is they wanted to allow sub projects to bring their governance with them um which meant that we needed to have a definition of open governance because they require all sub projects to have open governance and where's their definition of open governance I can point to and there really wasn't anything that I regarded as a sort of complete list of criteria and this has also come up within the CNCF because I recently had to talk to a project where they had one position within the governance that was appointed for life and I'm like that's not really open governance and they were like well where's the definition of open governance um so I was thinking it was something we should think about working on as a working group and then submitting to the TOC for approval because not having that definition means everybody has their own sort of interpretation um the um so I put down the criteria um I was using um you know for open governance and so I'm just introducing this if people get a look at that and add um you know to see both whether all of those you know whether all of those criteria are necessary like are some of them superfluous do a definition of open governance um whether or not we're missing things that are kind of required for open governance um and whether or not everything is clear the one at first glance the one thing that I don't see is anything about decision-making processes which I see is kind of a key to open governance is having a clearly defined decision-making process where it's it's clear who's making the decisions I feel like it's kind of implied in a couple of these but yeah it's implied but it's not clearly spelled out which is good so I it seems like you first add a clause to number one go into structure in yeah yeah yeah yeah and then add it to three as well there yeah I know some people are going to disagree with me in number four I'm a big fan of number four yeah I mean we've seen in k-native the problems you can have when they're held by companies uh-huh so okay well I mean give the exact criteria some thought because it's something you definitely need to think on what actually I wanted to bring up more you know with you and Charles and e-hoar is whether or not this is something we want to think about proposing to the TOC like I think it would be helpful to projects to have a clearly spelled out definition of what is open governance because that becomes a requirement for graduated status but without that criteria I would be willing to bet that not all the members of the TOC have the same list of criteria for what is open governance and so then we end up with our problem that a lot of projects have complained about right that whether or not they meet the criteria depends on which TOC member they're talking to yeah which is is painful for projects I mean I think if we say that open governance is a requirement then we need to we need to define what that means yeah I think proposing it to the steering committee is probably the right thing to do yeah okay for the TOC whatever it's called yeah I'll have a think on that and see if I see anything else yeah somewhere in there one of the questions I wanted to throw in there was making it clear what eligible means um in that you know when we're saying that somebody is eligible we're not saying that they necessarily get that status automatically there might be a process involved but just that they cannot be ineligible due to externalities and we'll also have to carve out an exception on nationality CNCF is a US based nonprofit and so the truth is that people who live in a handful of countries are not actually eligible for leadership positions I don't think we can add something about subject to US laws yeah yeah US non yeah something okay okay I do this also run this by Chris A because I know he was spending some time thinking about this yeah he'd be a few weeks ago so that's a good idea okay so other stuff I don't have any specific agenda items okay yeah we don't have any new projects showing up asking for help we are not doing the governance thing for um kubcon spring as far as I know but contrived strategies it is doing one yeah yeah I considered submitting something for backstage but then I looked at the hours and I was like oh I don't really want to give a talk at four in the morning I have a talk about governance a little bit about governance yeah I'll watch the recording yeah well be fair it's pretty much the exact same talk that I gave at some other conferences yeah I'll forget which one's probably if it's our summit I think because I was like this is a you know it's a tiny European event I'm not gonna build a new talk for it but I if they want one of my existing ones it should be interesting I've never been to fosback stage I hadn't ever heard of it until you actually mentioned it on Twitter so the um which is which is nice and you know next year when we can actually travel I might submit something or even go depending on how well it syncs up with fosdom and dev conf yeah an excuse to go to Berlin the um it would be nice because actually last time when kubcon was in Berlin I didn't get to do any sightseeing at all um I took advantage of the fact that it's a three-hour flight from Berlin to Israel to see my Israeli relatives but then I got no sightseeing time Berlin Berlin's amazing it's got there's just so much stuff to see yeah um the um well we can dream eventually we'll be able to travel eventually eventually someday um yeah I miss it not gonna lie it took me a while to miss it because you know given 2019 I was actually a little burned out on travel I I figured out that I actually spent over 100 days on the road in 2019 wow um and um so actually the first six months it was like wow I can stay at home and even now I have to admit I'm very happy to not be in the Czech Republic right now which which I would be in a normal year yeah because this is not a good time of year to be in the Czech Republic just weather-wise you mean or is there something going on yeah no no weather-wise yep yeah well it's like Fosdem right I just yeah here's my butt off yeah well and you know uh Czechia being inland is even worse although in some ways it's worse because it's not quite cold enough so it's not all snow it's all slush yeah no my problem with Fosdem is always that it's so cold outside some years that you're just you're freezing you're all bundled up and then you go in the rooms with like a thousand people yeah and then you're roasting and so it's this constant yeah yeah I don't know Fosdem was never my favorite conference no but I used to go every year because there were a bunch of people that I would you know you get an opportunity to talk to people that you just don't see at a lot of other conferences yeah well before um so last year I was briefly considering doing the thing where you you know go to Brussels but you don't actually attend Fosdem itself because there were enough interesting satellite events that that I might have gone to all the satellite events and and considered it you know done um because I really don't I don't like the whole San Diego Comic Con arrangement of of the talk rooms and that sort of thing yeah I was talking to Dirk about this um and he's like you know I we don't really encourage people to go to Fosdem because they don't get that much benefit out of it but I was like going to Fosdem is not about going to Fosdem it's about going to all the satellite events for the projects that you're working on that hold yeah events there like for me there's always a to-do group meeting there's always a chaos con yeah yeah it's about all it's not necessarily about Fosdem it's about all the stuff that you can attend that goes around it yeah and um copy left con yeah interesting to go to particularly because at the time I would have tried to get them to take a stand on Cal but but couldn't quite justify it yeah um particularly because as things turned out that ended up being my last chance to see my grandmother so the um so I'm glad I wasn't at Fosdem instead yeah totally um okay well if nobody has anything else that is the end of our meeting for today um do take a gander the definition of open governance see how you can tweak it etc um and if it if it works for you and we'll work through it um probably rediscuss it the next meeting then submit it to general SIG contributor strategy to push to the TOC sounds good okay cool thanks for your work thank you thank you thanks for showing afternoon evening everybody yep bye bye