 So, without further ado, we're going to move to our first presenter, a colleague of mine known to many of you. Andrew Josie is our VP of Standards and Certification here at the Open Group. Andrew oversees all certification and testing programs for us, and he also manages the standards process for the Open Group. Since joining us in 1996, Andrew has been closely involved with the Standards Development Certification and Testing Activities of the Open Group. He's led many standards development projects, including specification and certification development for the Archimates, Togath, POSIX and UNIX programs. Andrew is a member of the IEEE, USENIX and Floss UK and the Association of Enterprise Architects. And today Andrew is going to talk to us about virtual certification and training. Please put your questions in the Q&A channel here. And then Andrew will be joined by another colleague of mine, Karim Broch, who's the Director of Certification at the Open Group, to answer questions on a panel. But for now, Andrew is that there ready to go in Oxford, UK? Over to you, Andrew. I'll switch it back on when we take the Q&A. Okay. So, before I just check, I've got the control of the slides, which I have. So, this is the agenda that I'll be covering today. So, I'm going to be looking at basically three topics, Togath training, Togath certification, and then lastly, looking at open badges. However, before I do that, I just want to start with a few words about the Open Group. The Open Group is a global consortium that enables the achievement of business objectives through technology standards. We have over 750 member organizations, which are headquartered in 46 countries, and we have staff and local partners in 12 countries. Talk a little bit about how we create our training and certification programs. They're based on the standards produced by our members. So, the standards are developed and reviewed by acknowledged leaders in their fields, ensuring that our certifications are based on industry-accepted best practices and expertise. Moving into the first part of the talk, I first of all want to talk a little bit about Togath training. The Open Group has 68 training organizations worldwide offering accredited training. Each course is assessed by the Open Group to ensure it meets the quality standards to be accredited training. Accredited training is delivered in 15 languages, which I could read them all off, but I'll leave that one today, but there's a fair selection. I think we cover most languages that you would need, we hope. And we have training available in a number of delivery formats. So those include classroom, virtual, e-learning, and also blended learning. All of the Open Group accredited training course providers are able to deliver their courses as virtual instructor-led courses, and some of them provide e-learning courses. We have a number of resources on our site to actually make it easy to locate the training. These include this link here that I'm showing here that you can scan the QR code if you're particularly interested. We also have a calendar, so you can search for different types of courses. This is showing the ones that are virtual classroom-led, and we also have links to e-learning courses. Looking at certification, many of the Open Group standards have become industry standards over time. You may have heard obviously of the UNIX standard, that's a very well-known industry standard that the Open Group manages on behalf of the industry. The TOGAF standard is the DEFACTO EA standard that's out there. It's widely referenced in recruitment, and what we find is the Open Group architecture certifications regularly feature in the top paid IC skills list, such as the foot report. So if you look out for the foot report, you will see that TOGAF certification and some of our other certifications are regularly featured at the top of that list. What is TOGAF certification? Well, it's a globally recognized and portable credential. It allows you to demonstrate to employers and peers a commitment that you have to EA as a discipline, and it's market-driven. So what we mean by that is there's education, training, and certification out there to support the standard. There's a rich ecosystem available. Today we have a portfolio of TOGAF certifications available, and I'll go into a little bit more detail on these over the next few slides. Looking at the certification levels, the main certification levels, we have two of those for two purposes. There's TOGAF 9 Foundation. The audience there is looking for... It provides a basic understanding of the TOGAF 9 standard, and mainly I targeted the audience of roles associated with an architecture project. And that's really intended as a first introduction to the TOGAF standard. If you were deciding that you were deciding to do step-wise development and learning. So if you want to do it that way, you can do TOGAF 9 Foundation first rather than going for the higher level, which is TOGAF 9 certified, which is about a deeper end, which gives a deeper understanding of the standard. And that's really intended for professionals working in an organization where the standard has been adopted and individuals who are participating actively in architecture projects and initiatives. So it's really responsible for architects. You know, it's for architects responsible for developing artifacts and those who want to introduce TOGAF 9 into an architecture practice. There are two paths to certification. So there are two choices. As I mentioned, you could do step-wise development, or you can go direct to combined to TOGAF 9 certified via the combined route, the combined part one and part two exam. The TOGAF 9 foundation level includes 13 learning units. I won't read these out, but this gives you the idea here. As I mentioned, this is at a foundational sort of conceptual basic concepts and understanding of the standard. And then for the certified level, we add to that an additional 27 units, 27 learning units, making a total of 40 units. The certifications are supplemented by open badges. I'll talk a little bit about what those are in more detail in section three of this talk about what an open badge is. But the first open badge I'd like to talk about here specifically is the badge for the TOGAF standard version 9.2. Since TOGAF 9 certification has been active since 2009, we needed a way to show that an individual has up to date knowledge of the 9.2 release. And this is the badge that we issue for those people who have actually taken that refreshing refresher step or have earned their certification recently. There are two paths to earn this badge. Either you take an accredited 9.2 course. So you can directly come into this with your TOGAF 9 certification. So that's more for recent people. Or there's what we call TOGAF Essentials 2018. And that's the path for individuals who've taken their certification before the 9.2 release was available. To take the 2018 assessment, you basically, there is a brief course. It's about a three hour course. And then you take an assessment, which is an open book assessment which sort of tests you on your knowledge of the changes between 9.1 and 9.2. Once you earn this badge, you will also be awarded the 9.2 badge. So this is what we call an up to date knowledge credential. Another recent introduction is TOGAF Business Architecture Level 1. This is typically a two day course focusing on business modeling and business architecture based on the TOGAF standard version 9.2. We have 11 accredited courses. We also have a study guide. One thing to note here, there are no prerequisites. We have virtual study and remote exams available. It's suitable for managers and architects. So this is what we term a sort of specialization certification credential. We also have another specialization certification credential, which focuses on risk and security with the TOGAF standard. That's the fourth one in that original set. I would be remiss, of course, not to mention the that the open group has other related certifications, some of which I will return to briefly at the very end of this talk to show how we actually sort of bringing the standards together in a certain way. Now, enabling all of our certifications, of course, there are exams. Most of these are now enabled for remote delivery over the internet. And there's a small number that we're not able to deliver. For example, the Chinese language exams because we're not in LA and we're not. It's not possible for us actually to deliver those in China and we have English speaking practice and so on. So obviously, we've seen a dramatic shift in the in the number of remote exams taken in the last two quarters. So there's actually been a five, five fold increase in the second quarter that we just just completed over the first quarter. So we've gone up from three hundred and sixty exams taken in the first quarter to now over eighteen hundred in the current quarter. We use the solution called on view from Pearson view. And you can click on this link here if you're interested to watch a little video that will take you through that. It actually uses some AI technology to allow self check in using a smartphone. As I say, there is a YouTube video with more information. And if you are considering taking your exam at home, there is a system test. You can use check the suitability of your device and internet connection. Obviously, that's very important because not everybody is in an environment where it's suitable for your internet. But also if you've got children roaming around the house. So you've got to plan ahead to make sure that you take your exam at a quiet time if you're going to take your exam online. I'd like to now finish this middle section on certification with a look at the status of the certification worldwide. As Steve mentioned, we've here are the headline numbers. And as Steve mentioned, we've just passed the one hundred thousand certifications for Togaf nine. I was actually trying to think about what it was a good what is a good way to sort of visualize the number of people that that might be. And I went to Wikipedia and I looked up a list of stadiums and the two stadiums I could find closest to that number was one is the the the stadium. I think it's where the Texas Longhorns play. Apparently at the University of Texas in Austin, which I think that was just one thousand and then the Melbourne cricket ground in Australia is also one hundred thousand. So obviously at this time with the the pandemic, that's not exactly something we'd want to want to do, actually pack everybody into one stadium. So this is the worldwide distribution. So the distribution of worldwide certifications. Forty six percent in Europe. This is actually quite easy for me to calculate right now. I've got a hundred thousand because I can sort of look at look up the charts. I write there's nineteen thousand in North America. That's nineteen percent and so on. So you see Europe, forty six percent North America, nineteen Asia, twenty two Oceania, six Africa, four percent and South America, two percent right now. Now let's look in detail at some of the worldwide friends. As Steve mentioned, we're now in one hundred and fifty countries. We were at one hundred and forty nine countries in the previous quarter. And I did look up, which was the most recent country you've added, and that's actually Liberia in West Africa. Now, for those of you with very good eyesight, you might just about make that out on the math. We will zoom in a little bit in a minute. So we've had steady growth in the number of countries where we've where we've had sort of where we have certifications seven years ago. It was 62 countries five years ago, one hundred and twenty two countries and two years ago, one hundred and thirty seven countries. So we're I think we're starting to run out of countries to to add them, but I'm sure there must be must be a few more that we haven't haven't got so far. So let's zoom in and have a look on the left. You will see you'll also you'll see some numbers on this screen. It shows the top twenty and on the next one, it will show twenty one to forty and then forty one to sixty. If we look here, six of the top ten countries are in the northern hemisphere, including the UK at number one, USA, Netherlands, France, Canada and Germany. In North America, besides the US, which is at thirteen thousand one hundred and fifty five, we see Canada at three thousand eight hundred ninety four. We also see Mexico. They're actually number twenty three in the world with they've just gone over a thousand now, so they're with a thousand and one certifications. If we move down a little bit and we look at Central America, the number one country in Central America is actually Costa Rica with sixty eight certifications, followed by Panama, the twenty three. I don't actually have Panama on the map there. If we go around South America, we can see a top three of Colombia. They were number twenty four in the world with nine hundred and thirteen certifications Brazil, number thirty in the world with five hundred and eighteen certifications and Peru. I don't have the place for Peru written down, but they've got two hundred and twenty five certifications. In Africa, we can see the top three are South Africa, who's number ten place in the world with just under three thousand. Egypt, four hundred and fourteen and Nigeria at three hundred and thirty two. So those are the top three in Africa. In the Middle East, we have the United Arab Emirates at seventeenth in the world with just over fourteen hundred certifications and Saudi Arabia at number twenty one with twelve hundred and twenty. Moving around to Asia, obviously, we see a dark color. They're reflecting the high number in India, which is number three in the world with over eleven thousand four hundred. Now, China's number eight in the world with three thousand one hundred and thirty two. And Singapore and Japan have been jostling for position, but Singapore has just moved up to number sixteen and Japan has dropped down to number eighteen in the world and they've got just either side of fourteen hundred certifications there. In Oceania, we see Australia at number six in the world with over five thousand six hundred certifications and not forgetting New Zealand right there out at the far edge, which is at number twenty five in the world with with over seven hundred and seventy. If we look at the last eighteen months growth, we can see some of the trends here. We can actually see that India has been the number one growth country in the last eighteen months with over two thousand two hundred certifications followed by the UK, USA and France. So it's just a little chart to show which countries are growing the most. Most I'd like to finish today by looking at open badges. OK, so open badges are a way that the open group provides digital versions of its certifications, contribution awards and also achievements. We've actually partnered with the company to do this. So it's not something we do on our own. We actually partner with a company called Creadly, and we use their acclaimed platform and as with all things digital, you know, these open badge enables more value than just a certificate. You can get a certificate out with it, but there are other things that you can do. When you earn a certificate, you can now easily communicate this to your peers and your professional colleagues, and you can do that electronically. And it's very simple and I'll show you how to do that in a minute. Similarly, when you're ready for your next career move, they allow you to more easily communicate your certifications and your achievements to your prospective employers. The open group has a profile at the claim, so an organizational profile. You can go there and we actually got a directory. This is quite new. This is something that we put up in the last six months where you can search for individuals by badges, skills, name and location. So, for example, if you're looking for a specific skill in a specific location, you can do that. Or if you're looking for, you know, those people who are certified in a particular location, you can do that. Obviously, whether people appear in this is down to the individuals, whether they decide to opt in to have their entries listed publicly in this way. So, let's illustrate this by actually looking at my acclaimed profile. So, let's actually go and see what I've got over in the open group over at the acclaimed system. Here, you can see that I have, I think it looks like I've got 12 badges at the moment, and you'll also notice there are slightly different shapes of badges. These are three different types of badges. And there are the top left one, as you can see, is the open group certified, Togaf 9 certified. That's a full certification badge. The next one to the right of that, you can see, is the Togaf standard version 9.2 badge. That's actually a certification credential. And you'll see some green badges on there, and those are actually what we call contribution awards. I'll step through a little bit about what they are in a minute. So, if we click into a badge, we can see in one click information about the badge and what it took to earn, and also with a single click, there is real-time verification. So, here I'm clicking on my Togaf standard version 9.2 badge, and we could click and we could verify that. If we click on that, so you also see in the middle of that badge, there are skills. If we click on the skills associated badge, we can look at the job opportunities. So, here it's on the next slide. If we see the skills, if we click on the skills associated, we can look at the job opportunities for that skill. So, here we're looking at what the claim calls labor market insights. These are the opportunities for Togaf in the USA. This is data that I pulled just, I think, two days ago. And it's actually the data here is pulled from live job postings, a claim sources it from more than 25,000 global job boards and corporate career sites. So, it's a good way if you're looking for an opportunity, you can go in and all you want to see what opportunities are available for people with your skills or people with your certifications, you can click in to your badge and see what the job opportunities are. So, now I've got my badge. What I want to do is to share that with my peers. So, I go into my badge, I click on the share button and what we find is that most people actually share to the LinkedIn platform. And a claim makes it very easy to do that. It's all fully integrated now. There was a time when the claim would require you to copy, basically would put up a bunch of fields of information and ask you to copy that into a form on LinkedIn. The good news is the integration, excuse me, has improved this last quarter and now it's much simpler. You literally just click the button and it will add that to your LinkedIn profile. It's also possible to share it to your feed. Here we will see a couple of examples where I've shared some of my certifications on my profile and also where I announced a new badge on my news feed. What's quite nice is when you share your badge to your news feed, you can also customize the message that you want to put in when you do the sharing. And here I sort of made a little advert about the availability of a new study guide that ties into the contribution award that I received for being the author of a new publication, which brings me on to contribution awards. Now, these are available to all participants within the open group. They're available for a number of different categories. We have them for authors, co-authors, contributors, reviewers and translators. And these are for the open group standards, guides and case studies. And it's a very simple process for making claims. You basically, there's a form, you log into it, you pull down the document that you want to make a claim form. And then you just need to upload the one page, usually from the front matter of the document, which is either the about the authors or the acknowledgments page where your name is listed. And then usually when next working day, typically you will get a badge issued. Last thing I want to cover today is give you a preview of a new set of badges we're introducing soon. In fact, some of you with the eagle eyes may have spotted this go round on one of the event news sort of role where they display between sessions. This set of badges are what we call Togoff roll based badges. So these are for roles based on Togoff, on the Togoff Enterprise Architecture methodology and framework with options for visual modeling using the Archimate language and also digital approaches using the digital practitioner body of knowledge standard. So this is where I mentioned earlier that we were looking at how to tie certifications together in a certain way. And there will be two levels of a badge available for this. There'll be what we call team member badges for those with foundational knowledge. And then there'll be practitioner badges for those with a practical understanding including analysis and application. So here you can see the summary grid of which qualifications, which certifications you would need to hold in order to qualify for which badge. And the idea is that these will be automatically issued by our badging system. These won't be at any extra charge. They will just be automatically issued when individuals have got the prerequisite certifications. Okay, so to summarize, that's where you can contact me if you need to reach out to me, feel free to do that. To summarize, I've covered three topics today. I've covered the open group training. As you can see, we've enabled that the virtual and e-learning delivery. A lot of emphasis this past quarter and a bit just to obviously cope with the changes that are occurring due to the pandemic, the ongoing pandemic. I am pleased to report that actually I've seen some test centers are starting to open again. Obviously we saw a wave of closures going across the planet and we're starting to see a wave of opening. So obviously China reopened first and then we're also starting to see other countries across Europe. So hopefully fingers crossed things will return to some form of normality eventually. You see the open group certification is enabled for remote delivery. We've got all of our exams just about apart from a small number of different language exams of Chinese ones as I mentioned are enabled for remote delivery. And we're now using open badges widely as our digital first approach to issuing certifications and awards. That's where I'd like to stop this today. So we'll move to Q&A, I think, Steve. Thanks, Andrew. Yes, Q&A. We'll go straight to it. Thank you very much for the overview. And I think Corinne is available as well to answer questions. In fact, Corinne's answered one or two in the Q&A channel. So, but let me go to the first question that came in. I completed TOGF 9 and RQM8 3.1 practitioner certifications last year. Are open badges awarded retrospectively or do I have to do something? Yeah, if you've qualified for an open badge we go all the way back to 2009 and we will issue badges. You just need to make sure that you have opted into the program. Send an email to badges.opengroup.org. We will tell you what to do to be able to claim your badge. We require individuals to opt in to the badging program. We're not able to issue badges without people opting in. That's obviously due to GDPR and all that sort of privacy legislation that we have to follow. So we need an explicit opt in before we can pass an individual's details to our partner credibly, a claim for them to issue the badge. So there is a step, but as soon as you've opted in once, that's it, you're in there and then basically the badges are automatic. And the good news is that we currently say allow up to 10 working days after you complete your certification. Well, we've done some recent automation and it's now running three or four times a day. The job that looks for people who've got certified and passes their badge over to our badging system to be issued. Now, we don't issue them every three or four hours, but they're in the queue to go out and we usually do that at least once a day, maybe a couple of times a day. Great. Okay. And we've got a request. Badges at opengroup.org, I think was the email address that you gave. But a request, maybe one of my open group colleagues could put that in the chat. We've had a request for that to be put there. Thank you very much. And from the same person, given that they have a Togaf and an Archimate, excuse me, a Togaf and an Archimate certification, that might make me eligible for architecture modeling practitioner under the new... It may well do. There is a requirement. And if you look at those badges, you will see that they're all 9.2 based. Right. And so we will have to make sure that that person has got the 9.2 request knowledge. So that's either by... I've studied recently and what we're able to do, we look at all the exam results that come in and we look at whether a venture was used. We know what type of venture it was. And if it was issued as part of an accredited course, then we know that is 9.2 because the courses have been required for 9.2 for quite some time now. The other way is if you did your Togaf 9 certification while it was still on 9.1, is you can do the Togaf Essentials Update, which as I say, it's relatively short. It's a three-hour course, an open book assessment, just a refresher, and you can qualify that way to update your Togaf certification. And then you will be eligible for the new role-based badges which are coming. They should come out, well, hopefully fairly soon, but we're probably going to make some announcements probably in about a month's time. But we may start issuing them before then. Okay. Okay, that's good. Thank you. In that person's case, they've just clarified they do have 9.2, so that should be straightforward. Yes, it will be. They're probably in the list. I think there are about 450 badges we've computed that will go out in the initial wave of all the role-based badges. So the next question that came in was, actually Karen answered it. I don't know if there's any additional comment we want to make because that's the detail, but if someone's 9.1 certified, how much of a difference is there to bring up to date with 9.2? And it's not that much because it's only a three-hour course. It really isn't. You can probably even look out at the YouTube videos we pushed out on the Open Group YouTube channel in April 2018 to get a good idea of what it is because I think we did a one-hour video which is a condensed version of the three-hour course. Okay, thank you. Then we've got, let's see, we've got here, how can I get involved with the TOGAF core group which works on testing and core syllabus, etc.? Okay, well that's within the Open Group Architecture Forum. There is a certification standing committee that does that. So you need to work for a member company as I think the short answer. So for that one who has got membership in the Open Group Architecture Forum to get involved with that one. Okay, next question. I took TOGAF 9.1 level one and two lessons and also the 2.1 argument training. Is there a website where I can update my knowledge to take the current exams? I'm not sure about a website. Obviously, all of our accredited trainers have lots of resources. So you could obviously go to the Open Group. You can look up the list of accredited training courses if you want to do a training course. There is an option to self-study and obviously we've got self-study guides as well. So it really depends how you want to do your learning, whether you want to attend a course or whether you want to do it yourself with self-study. Yeah. Obviously, you can download and read or read the specification online. That doesn't cost anything. So you can familiarize yourself with the changes between ArchiMate 2.1 and ArchiMate 3 actually just by looking at the spec. I believe there is an appendix that has a summary list which gives you a good starter of all the things. A lot of the changes between ArchiMate 3 and ArchiMate 2.1 were really sort of under the water line to improve the sort of plumbing or whatever you want to think of it as. A lot of things like them which would really sort of help out the tools, the tool suppliers because there's better definitions of how they do the derivation rules in the language, how the language can be handled by the tools. Right. Okay. Switch topic a bit. The contribution was the open group presumably knows who's contributed to each publication. So is it not possible to another questions come in? Is it not possible to short-circuit the process and just issue the badges to those people? That's something I'm looking at and obviously for people who have opted into the badging program, that is possible. But again, I still have that problem of I'm passing private data across to a partner organization. I need that explicit permission. So when we go to the contribution awards page, as I mentioned, it's a very simple form to fill in. But in there, you click, you click a couple of, you know, I give the open group permission to pass my data and tells you what data we're going to pass as about four or five fields of information that we passed to Credly. You know, what the badge type is when you earned it, what your email address is, what your first name is, what your last name is. That type of thing. Yeah, it's something we could look at as an enhancement over time to do more. Obviously, you know, we are always looking at how we can automate things more. But this is a start and we're, we will be able to build on it. That's, I guess, is the short of it. Yeah, yeah. So I hear that the open group has other certifications called open professions. What's the difference between that and Togaf and Alchemic certification? Okay. Actually, I don't know if Corinne ever wants to answer any of these. I'm happy to take them all for the moment. But when there's a hard one, I'll leave that to Corinne. Well, so the question was, what's the difference between open professions and the Togaf and Alchemic? Open professions, certifications, and I'm telling you, yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the Alchemic and Togaf certifications are knowledge based. So this is about assessing your knowledge of the subject area and obviously the different levels of the certification take you down in at different depths of that knowledge. So there's the foundation, the basic concepts, and then certified is about analysis and application. Open professions actually is looking at things from a completely different perspective. And that's about skills and experience rather than just knowledge. So obviously there is a knowledge component, but then looking at skills and by skills, and by skills, I mean it's not just technical skills, it's soft skills as well. So it's communication. In fact, there are probably better, better other people on the, on our call, he'll be speaking later, who are actually certified in that program and can probably speak better for it than me. There's no exam involved in the open professions program. It's all about having your skills and experience assessed. And the way you do it is there are about five sort of components that you need to get. And we split this, it used to be one single, what we call a package you had to submit, but we've actually split that down into now what we call milestones. So you can do a little chunk of it. You can do say your professional communication badge and get that. And when you've got these, the complete set of badges that you need, then you get your certification badge. So, and the last stage will require you to go up against a peer review board where you will actually get interviewed by your peers and they will interview about your experience profile and to obviously ensure that you meet the requirements. And there are three levels there as well. There's certified master and distinguished if I've got that right. There's a slightly different way. It's in the industry talks about T-shaped people and this is sort of looking it across the top of the T, I guess. Right. And there's a question that Corrine is answering in the chat right now about somebody who took and passed the TOGAP exam in December last year. And the claim shows that he is TOGAP 9 certified, but his TOGAP manual says he's TOGAP version 9.2 from his training organization. And I think the answer is that the trainers sometimes deliver version specific courses. Yeah. So, obviously the course is accredited to 9.2, but the certification TOGAP 9 certification applies to all the 9.x releases. And we have the badge to actually show the specific version of the standard that you're up to date with. Yeah. So, if he's taken a course that is 9.2 and it was taken with an accredited trainer, then you probably ought to be able to qualify for the 9.2 badge. We can always look into it. Just send us a note to badges at opengroup.org. We can check into that. Depends how long ago it was. Yeah, we can always look at that. We've got a little bit better at issuing the badges recently. End of last year by the sound of it. So, Corrine seems to be dealing with it in the chat. So, thank you, Corrine. Okay, if my organization is looking to build NEA team and wants to start with TOGAP training and certification, how should I go about it? Okay. So, I guess, again, it's that decision whether you want to look out for one of the open groups accredited trainers to take you on that journey. You can obviously go to our site. We've got a list, as I mentioned. I think it was at 68. 68 accredited training course providers. Also, you can look in our calendar for where courses are being delivered. If you want to, we can deliver those virtually as maybe one day. We'll be back to on-site as well. So, there's the choice, really, whether you want to go down the accredited training route or whether you want to, again, people could self-study or people could do e-learning. There's a whole, our trainers deliver in multiple modes. That's right, multiple modes, multiple geographies. And it really just depend on the circumstances. But you will find quite a lot of information on the full list of accredited trainers on our website. And it might be useful to put a specific link to that in the chat for people. If we can get a chance to do that, that will be great. Yeah. One thing is just go to www.opengroup.org. And then at the top bar, there is a certifications on the top tab. And there's a massive menu that comes down from there. And you should be able to follow the path, I think, once it's prepared for certification. So, have a look at the ideas that are there. Right. A question, I'm just just coming in. It's come into the chat, not the Q&A, but for members or current TOGAF certification holders who are working in organizations that are not members of the open group, how do they gain the role-based badges? That's not dependent on membership, is it? No, no, the role-based badges will be, the eligibility is based on individuals having the certification. So really what the role-based badges do is they reward people who've got two certifications. And so it's about, and the badges are basically knowledge skill sets. So it's about emphasizing skill sets. So if you've got, say, TOGAF certified, and then you've also taken the digital practitioner, body of knowledge exam and pass, got that certification, then you can get the digital EA team member. I think that's the digital enterprise architecture team member at this point. We're not doing a practitioner for that one yet until we get a higher level of certification in place for the digital practitioner. So as soon as we get that in place, we'll also have a practitioner, say, for the TOGAF digital enterprise architect. Okay, okay, that's great. Andrew, Corinne, we're going to leave it there. Thank you very much for the overview and for taking your questions. If there are more questions that come in, I'm sure it looks like Corinne will be looking at those for a short while longer. Okay, and we'll do our best to answer those. And badges at opengroup.org is a good place to go with any questions about badges. Yeah, and people can reach out to me on these contacts here as well. There we go. So thank you for the overview and the questions. Thank you, Corinne, and a big virtual round of applause. Andrew, thank you. Thank you.