 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mike Edison who's the author of sympathy for the drummer why Charlie Watts matters Mike welcome to the show Hey, thanks, man. Glad to be here. Awesome. Yeah, this is great I I am lucky enough to have met Charlie Watts So this is a really cool episode that I've wanted to do kind of uh, we're gonna talk about a little bit about him as a Person but also you were telling me just kind of how rock and roll has changed over the years and and and really You're gonna tell us why Charlie Watts matters Charlie Watts is the guy Charlie Watts is the uh, you know the guy that drives that car I think he's the only guy All the other rolling stones can can agree on if they all get along with No, Charlie Watts no rolling stones. He said it many many times, you know, that is The key to their sound is is his rhythm is his drums. He's Very uh, what you an auto didact, you know, you know when I was coming up when I was playing the drums Like everybody else I think of my age. Oh, it's this thing to black Sabbath Blood zeppelin and a lot of fifties rock and roll too. The stones were confounding I mean even the kids I knew were playing along with rush and saying oh man, this is where it's at It never moved me first because you can't dance to it. So forget that Um, but also you could learn to play like Neil Peart You could learn a john bottom part. You could learn, you know, the tricky triplets and the and the tricky Based drum parts, but to play like Charlie Watts. You couldn't learn. There's a poetry in there He swung the band so hard, but he did all these counter intuitive things opening up the hi-hat places that you wouldn't imagine He had kind of a flawed technique which he sort of made his greatest asset So to try to learn to play like Charlie Watts. It was kind of like learning to Learning to write poetry. You couldn't just learn it. It wasn't a trick It was something that you had to fully commit to and you just had to live with it and breathe it It was much much different. So when people ask me how long did it take you to write this book? I usually say 45 years Yeah, you've been studying your whole life. I mean you hit the nail on the head by Saying that he's not like these guys who are the mega drummers who were you know, they're They're just known for their insane chops that like you said you can learn I mean Charlie is is his own style. I mean, he's his own kind of drummer similar to Ringo Yeah, Ringo is great. And you know when I was coming up and say, ah, he doesn't do anything I couldn't do after two lessons, which is just ridiculous Ringo and people who've read my other books No, that's the biggest Beatles fan in the world But the guy has got incredible touch incredible feeling The way he plays part of it's because he's you know, softball playing on a righty kit So it's hard to duplicate But hey, let me ask you this so the Beatles break up and they start making solo records They call anybody in the world they want and they all call Ringo. What does that say about the dude? Yeah, that's very true. I mean you can't learn that stuff So I'd be very interested in maybe starting off with hearing a little bit about Charlie's upbringing. I don't know much about that So I think it'd be good to know, you know, where this where this guy came from Well, uh, the book sympathy for the drummer by Charlie Watts matters It's not a typical biography in any sense. It's more kind of like a Gonzo rush. It's sort of a wide-eyed appreciation. So The biography for free park sort of goes like he was born and then he was in the Rolling Stones I mean, I didn't want to tell a story of him growing up in Warthorne, England and we've kind of heard this But uh, yeah, he was an art student and Charlie Watts would have been successful You know, even if he didn't join the Rolling Stones In fact, I would say they need him more than he's ever needed them He was a commercial artist a graphic designer You know, he still designed some of the large stages or helps In the design of some of the large stages and some of the stuff they do now Um, that's 75 to where that whole lotus stage that was his idea Uh, you know, he's an artist at heart. Um, Charlie came up, uh, you know, listening to jazz. That was the era Um, people forget this was a pre rock and roll era when he was a kid and he heard the song walking shoes Uh, I think it's a Jerry Mulligan quartet with G. Cole Hamilton on drums That's played on the russians. It's very suave. It's very cool. It's it's more roll than rock and that also is the continued Uh secret to their success of the Rolling Stones. It's more roll than rock. They are the Rolling Stones they're not the rocking stones and people forget that in the equation of rock and roll Roll is always the most important part That's the sexy part. That's the adult part. That's the jazz. I always say any any any kid Can rock, you know metallic rocks charlie watz rolls, you know, it's the swing and it has to do with You know anticipation and not hitting that point of climax too quickly. I know you have a lot of young listeners So um, we'll keep that metaphor to a minimum, but that's what it's about You don't want to climax on the first note and charlie knows that it's about anticipation And and really that's how you create tension in a song and there's another myth too That charlie watz some sort of metronome, which is uh, you know, it is nonsense because there's hardly a Rolling Stones song That ends at the same speed it begins. This is something that you know people who aren't drummers say about drummers Oh, he's a metronome or you're supposed to keep steady time Not really quite true, you know, you can pull back a little bit when you need to but you can definitely push the Course as you can totally push the end of a song Uh, you know, john bonham did it all the time john bonham slows down in crash mirror for instance Which is incredible without seeming like it's dragging. It's a snap or bow So, uh, charlie watz though has such a feeling and like we're talking about chops Neil pier and all these other cats know these prog rock guys with charlie watz. What's the most obvious thing Um, is that it comes from his heart not from his hands I mean he could certainly play there's no question about it But he's not doing, you know quadruple ratamacuse on his rototoms. That's not what this is about You know, this is very simple. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got the swing Yeah, that's so funny and it's The slowing down I think is like you're right where it's it's sometimes Like people think you need to be perfect But like There's they just they weren't recording to a click then and his his feel was so important and there's some recordings There's some stone songs Where like they would overdub a tambourine and the tambourine is like a half second like a like a couple milliseconds off from the snare consistently like everything is just kind of a natural like It feels more organic than super polished music. And I think that's that that's the blues. That's the role There's so many things on rolling stones records that more polished professional corporate organizations You know bands, you know would consider mistakes. Whatever you make it onto the final product There are a million like flubbed little ghost notes and places where he's trying to catch up to keith Or or you know, I mean there's so many places where keith hits that note and charlie starts off behind the I listened to Some stone stuff with kenny aron off A buddy of mine I worked helped him out on his book Kenny, of course first call, you know studio drummer and He's currently with out with john fulverty, but he's played with everyone from the rolling stones and and on charlie Watch solo records to um, you know, you know, sorry, I mean every one of the world's played with kenny aron off And we listened to some stuff together, which was a great treat and Kenny is an incessant Charter he loves to write everything down Kenny is a conservatory trained and you know, here's a guy like a metronome boy. This is time is impeccable And we listened to the intro to hang fire just by example We'll do a bunch of stuff and I can he what is going on here And he goes oh, it's it's incredible because he puts three accents all in the wrong places and he speeds up This is only in two bars of music the song hasn't even started yet And he says man, you know, you know, I can't believe they you know that got onto the record I mean it's it's wonderful I mean he was in awe He's like no one would ever let me play like that if I played like that and get fired Yeah, that but it's the very thing that makes the rolling stone so special Absolutely. Do you know so like Not to go too far into the biography side, but how did charlie get into drumming? Was he just like He drummed as a kid and took lessons and I was in here. He heard the jazz the radio. He's a big jazz fan This is very important. He's basically a jazz drummer. He always wanted playing in a blues band was perceived as a step down He was playing some modern jazz meaning like the loneliest monkey like this and a little trio of coffee shops and whatnot And occasionally the british blues scene and you know in the early 60s And you know playing with you know guys with john mail He wasn't playing john mail But the people that were on the scene with the guys that became into the pretty things became fleetwood mac and later became the faces and you know all these cats should be paged Etc etc all these people in the early british blues scene, but charlie was a jazz cat You know, he didn't really like tawdry rock and roll. He really wasn't into all this or Chuck Berry until He's richards and brian jones kind of sat him down with it Um, but what made him play the drums like I said was this song uh This uh chico hamilton on the drums and then uh flamingo by earl bostic He always says was another early favorite, which is almost more r&b Than the jazz, but it's a really really sexy uh swinging saxophone part And charlie was a kid. He took the neck off of a banjo And got some wired brushes and used the banjo as a drum head and just began playing along until his dad bought him a proper drum set Um, obviously he's a natural but what's crazy is if you listen to the rolling stones over the course of their career Um, when they started out, they were you know a talented cover band They had a great sense of playing the blues and playing with chicago blues and arpo and jim reed You know and stuff like this muddy waters obviously Um But charlie was playing pretty minimally and then things began to open up later It's it's pretty cool because you know most drummers arrive Kind of kind of already formed when you heard john bonham on the first lead's up in record That was the john bonham you were going to get in the next nine years I mean obviously he grew creatively with the band But a lot of that stuff was already in place his technique was formed Keith moon was already a lunatic on the very first who record Um, and yeah technology changes the band grows and styles change But that was the guy with charlie by the time you got uh, gimme shelter You know, you know the record let it bleed and you started playing street fighting man things were opening up a lot You know his style had changed And if you hear him playing jumping jack flash on the single it's very minimal And if you heard him play it just a few years later, he was finding space within the space He was finding places to express the jazz and do those things that make me insane Like where he opens up the hi-hat the you know counterintuitive place and it really it just jerks the song the right way It just really swings and you can't anticipate it. You can't copy it. You can't learn it It's it's poetry, you know, and that's the very difference from jazz. I mean it's it's it's improvised There's something about and I have a buddy of mine who's a guitarist and a singer And I played in the band with him forever who he'll play the drums But he'll do it's exactly like you're describing where obviously charlie watts is on a little bit higher of a level than my my friend gordy, but Where he opens the hi-hat in a certain place that as a trained drummer I would never do Ever and it's like a thing where i'm like, man, I would never think about that and and and charlie does that as well and just these like this certain way of playing that's very like I don't know. It's just like a it's not showy. It's not flashy and and I think It's important to say through all of this and even in my brief experience meeting him He is the most humble Least like pretentious guy you could ever meet in your life almost to the point where like From what I understand. He just he doesn't really want to talk about the stones. He knows he's in the stones Yeah, he's not he's over it. Well, I I didn't uh, you know talk to the guys Before I did this book and honestly, i'm glad I didn't I made a perfunctory Get a request to talk to the robin stones, you know and mobster individually Charlie has a hardcore no interview policy. I mean the only times charlie's ever really given interviews Since the 60s Was when he was working on his jazz band And I'd say if he went on tv with his jazz band because I think honestly He had the same fear every other jazz musician in the world has is that you're gonna get to the club I the only person there is going to be your wife and your best mate Because there's no one wants to come see a jazz band and he decided I better get on tv and promote this because otherwise Yeah, he doesn't want to talk about it. I mean he'll talk to you about um Big bad drummers and bebop drummers all day long, but he certainly doesn't want to talk about the rolling stones and You know, I've heard you know that they dig the book the people in the stones the stones organization And I was kind of like really because you think they'd be kind of tired of reading about themselves by now And I was told well you wrote about charlie and they'll actually all like him You're the only guy that figures out write a book about charlie and while I didn't Run towards the sex and drugs. I didn't stay away from it either. It's part of the story Of course the big part of the rolling stone story, but this isn't um You know, you know some some hypers and sensual sensationalized, you know symphony of yellow drug journalism like You know, like so many rock and roll books are this is actually a book about the music And yeah, there's plenty of sex and drugs, but it is really about the music Yeah, you I want to pause there because you made a very good point and I should have done it earlier but just to give a shout out to the uh to our mutual friend don mccauley who is uh works with charlie Watts as his drum tech and does all kinds of stuff and it's just a He's in the stones crew. Um, he sent me a note as you said The people on the crew love the book because it's about charlie. Let me read what don said, um About the book he said what pulled me into the book right away was how mike described the current Happenings in the pop and arts culture throughout the world in parallel with the era that charlie's coming up as a young designer and inspiring drummer He really draws out the connection of how charlie and his mates live as trend setters through the world of rocker Beatnik and jazzers still to this day. It's a great read and it's not just for drummers So that's from don mccauley who again is just a well I'm awesome because i mean don aside from being charlie's tech works with some of the best drummers of the world As a real student of the art form. Yes, um, you know Which is like, you know, it's the same for any musician and in drummers. I don't know maybe maybe more than other cats I'm not quite sure but have lost track of where it all comes from And this is why it's charlie. Watts is so important because the rolling stones even today with the show their touring show They're bringing out They are the only band that exists that still can connect directly connect the dots They connect that that hot blue spark of electricity I like to call it that goes from muddy waters and marvin gay and james brown and bow diddly You know right up to the now because you're the last one standing You're the only guys they learned literally by playing with bow diddly and watching little richard every night They learned literally sitting at the feet of howling wolf You know, they learned it hard for and one reason charlie watts is so great Is because he understood that some of this blues music that a lot of when i was growing up a lot You know my friends who had like, you know, I mean, I don't even call the right only drum sets are like furniture stores You know with 400 drums gongs. Yeah, you know, yeah, wind chimes and lord knows what you know I can only wonder where all that stuff is now Yeah, really, you know, and they just sort of say this blues is so easy to play I'm like, yeah, and people tell me pizza is easy to make It's only got three ingredients So how do you screw it up and get there's so much bad pizza in the world? Oh, man, that's all these cats who had no problem playing along, you know with you know four sides of a russia album But couldn't swing a shuffle beat or play a punk rock beat without tripping over themselves Yeah Yeah, man, that's so true. You can't it's again you you can't teach this stuff and You said it before and I don't think it should be skipped over about how the stones were raised in like post world war two if not towards the end of world war two Uh, england and that is like, I mean it was bombed out, right that people can't imagine that and I imagine dropping Bombs on new york city. This is people living in london And nazis are dropping bombs of airplanes on this city, you know america. We war is something that happens Happens elsewhere. Yeah You know people you don't understand what it must like to be here in the air raid sirens going off And then playing you're growing up as a kid playing in the rubble and we demolished build it That has to shape a little bit of your psyche growing up and obviously they think I mean they came out they came out great But I always think of the stones as being um, like we mentioned the Beatles just like a little bit more Like I kind of think of them as parallel bands in a way But just being a more raw version just if you have both of those Beatles are more polished stones are more raw and and I think Just the sound the drumming and and I know they they you know, they were friends and all that stuff But uh, it's just more rock and roll. You know the Beatles when they started, of course We're a rock and roll band very true playing in hamburg, um, you know playing You know six sets a night and taking lots of amphetamines to get through it You know, uh, and you know, they looked terrific and there were other jacket kind of rock and roll band playing little Richard And you know, I think they were more into rock ability and uh, sun sounds and of course, they were very to Elvis and Pearl Perkins Whereas the stones You know gravitated immediately toward urban black music, you know Chicago blues and all the cats that were in Chicago, of course came up through Mississippi And they idolized bodidly and slum harpo and jimmy reed They especially fetishized and his drummer earl phillips who was one of the great unsung heroes in the story earl phillips who um You know, if you listen to jimmy reed, it's and he only he's only got like two songs and two rhythms And yet it's so mesmerizing and brian jones and keith just sat charlie does it you gotta listen to this cat It's so simple, but there's an anticipation to it. You know, it always sounds there's always a sort of Sort of like makes your heart kind of kind of palpitate just a little bit Even on the slow songs because he doesn't always land what you think it's going to and charlie heard the jazz He heard, you know a purity of fluidness I heard the poetry in it where I think a lot of guys like a seventh Idiots like grew up with you know, kind of just poo pooed as you know, old cats And it really know how to play but it's jazz and charlie heard that and earl phillips also went on to play Um, so the howl wolf's greatest songs of johnny hooker these one chord songs no changes They're just hypnotic mesmerizing. You know songs like those smoke stack lightning or back to our man or 44 You know all these howl wolf songs The other great drummer of of course coming out of chicago was fregg below who charlie watz said he owes his career to Wow, and he's the guy who was the house drummer at uh chest studios chest records in chicago Yeah, played on most of chuckberry's hits played on a lot of muddy waters records played a lot of howl wolf records And this is a guy He was he was also a jazz drummer who kind of settled back into playing blues because when uh, his career really got started Jazz had kind of gone on a style and blues was the thing to play if you were uh an african-american in chicago at the time And charlie said as recently as a couple years ago when the stones did their blues record He goes, I owe it all to fregg below man He's got such a deep knowledge of all these jazz guys and and don has put it before like describing him He said charlie's a jazzer and I just even love that term of calling him a jazzer because it's such a classic It's like saying a rocker but a jazzer like there's no denying that the guy is just a jazz Uh, do you think he obviously he loved playing with the stones and had all this success? But do you think It's probably an unanswerable question, but I wonder if he maybe later on he probably enjoyed doing his jazz projects Passionately more than you know going out and playing with the stones because that's his Upringing well, you know, I don't want to say you like it better or not Um, he's not here to ask him and there are two different pieces, but there's obviously a reason why he does it. I love I think I think it's indisputable that charlie Watts of all the wrong stones is the only one that's put out solo records that are beyond criticism What do you mean by that like meaning that like, you know, you listen to what I mean is listen You know the wrong stones really broke up over big jaggers solo career because he thought yeah Because he you know has had this lifelong crush on david bowie and thought he'd be that guy But he can't be I mean god gave him the rolling stones But you know who are perfectly capable of making bad pop records. They've done lots of yeah So why would you want to go out and do it on his own and what he said? Hey, look buddy, if you want to go do Irish lullabies with Liberace, you know You've got my blessing do something that the Rolling Stones can't do But if you want to go out and play in a rock band or a pop band, you know, what's wrong with you You've already got the best one in the world and so big jagger makes a couple of solo records or who knows how many there are now They're no one wants and no one cares about Heath's records are very well intended. The first one's pretty good, but you know Honestly after listening to it, you kind of wonder why you're not listening to the Rolling Stones It's so similar. You can't get away from it. It sounds like the stone wood is made so a couple of cool little records Um, give me some next pretty cool record doesn't hurt the charlie watts plays the drums I'm almost the whole thing any paints ron wood paints and all that stuff But after listening to a ron wood record, you're kind of wondering why aren't I listening to the Rolling Stones or the phases? You know, but with charlie watts, he's playing in a jazz band and no, it's not charlie parker And it's never going to be you know, max roaches quartet, but it's really likeable and it's not intended to be any But besides that, you know, it's it's not the Rolling Stones It's something he cannot do within the confines of the Rolling Stones He's following a different Muse and therefore it's beyond criticism I feel like he It comes off Very clearly and it's a great thing that he doesn't really he's doing it for his own happiness He's doing it for himself instead of being like, I'm gonna be you know the same I'm gonna be I'm gonna go off on my own and get all the glory. It's like I think he's Scratching an itch that he has where he wants to be in a jazz band and everyone likes that Well, that's that's the big big shortcoming of big jagger is that you know, I mean he said at some point I want to be bigger than the stones And you know, he said that's not you know, that's not possible, you know, and you know to the point of like You know, he's pulling a gun on a singer. I'm sure That would be the key style, but it was broken. How can you be bigger than that? Why would you want to be and I think mix relationship is with his ego and with the audience Keith's relationship is with the music of the band like charlie's is Yeah, which is the priority the priority is the music not the start-up Not celebrity Now can we take it back a little bit and talk about So as sort of like don mentioned it and it is quote that I read but like talking about them is like Not just fashion but just icons. Where does charlie fall into all of that? You got mick jagger being the lead man But how was charlie seen in that in in the band? You know what I mean? Was he a fashion icon and all that good stuff too? Charlie is great taste as I say in the book Not only was he like pouring over the pages of downbeat to look at, you know, all the drummers and read about them He was also checking out what they're wearing and here's a guy that shows up to a gig You know impeccably wearing, you know a suit now. He's very famous for wearing his salvo roast suits and you know and bespoke tailored You know clothing, I mean, yeah, he looks wonderful. I mean, I mean you can't really play a rolling stone set in a suit But when you see Charlie Watts, I mean there's a reason why he went from being on Best drummers list to best dressed list. Yeah, and you know, and you know, Mick might work You don't know what kind of frock he's going to show up in you know, I mean Mick wears capes and football You know, it's okay. You know, it's okay. They're rock stars Yeah Charlie is you know, I was also sitting behind the drums. I think that's enough of a statement Um, yeah, but you know, it's okay. Everybody in a band. This is why we have bands, right? We play to our strengths. Um, Charlie Watts is a solo act. Mick Jagger thought he could be but he was wrong Um, they have the rolling stones and everybody contributes and it's a magical thing when you have four guys Who are so not interchangeable and not replaceable when one plus one equals five When the hole is so much greater than the sum of the parts that's that's a formula You don't want to be fooling around with it doesn't happen that often You know, I mean every band you always know you always know who the guy is who's the mercenary I mean you've been advanced this guy joined because he owned a pa this guy You know had a van you could drive us This guy was the only guy who had a basin was willing to come to rehearsal But when you get four guys who really belong together It's special. It's really special And that's the stones. Yeah, and that being said, I mean the wrong stones are Mick and Keith and Ron Wooddown and Charlie Watts most of all because Charlie Watts is not replaceable Obviously the guitar player Ron Wood position has been replaced a few times, but Ronnie is clearly one of them Yeah, I think big Taylor wasn't really one of them You know, I mean and he was great And of course that was probably the best error of the stones But I always compare him to like, you know, he's like the designated hitter the power forward, you know He's like some gaudy free edge and you hire so you can win the championship for a few seasons But the truth is he's not going to retire wearing that number No, you know, that's that's it. He's a mercenary. He was amazing But like he quit the Rolling Stones because he thought he could do better. I mean, I mean No, you can't And I think Bill Wyman is one of the most un You know heralded musicians bass players really the most underrated cats in the history of this whole thing And part of it's because the way the records are mixed and he's very much Deep into the mix. It's not really a full big round fender bass sound And because Charlie doesn't play in the pocket the way a lot of other cats might like, you know Bonham and and John Paul Jones played together more as a conventional rhythm section with the bass and the drums very much You know in the pocket like the meters like Booker T and the mgs Like most rhythm and soul bands, you know learn to play that way But Charlie's really playing with Keith and Bill Wyman's job is sort of kind of kind of ride herd over them It creates what they call and has been called the wobble Right because Keith will start and Charlie kind of chases him Which is how he's just a little bit behind the beat and playing behind the beat is very important that creates that anticipation It gives you that great forward sense that you know that that sense of urgency Um, yeah without going over the line because once you cross the line, it's very difficult to come back And you have Bill Wyman whose parts are wonderful and complex, but they're not overblown and they're mixed down close to the guys Um You know, so the whole thing kind of just gels He's a little bit ahead of the beat Charlie's a little bit behind Bill's really right on top of it And that's a very unique thing other bands rhythm sections don't function that way And if you know, you listen to the best of the rolling stones Especially starting in the late 60s through the great period of the early 70s and but even through I mean some girls Which is its own masterpiece. Yeah, you hear all these things and by the way by the time some girls came out This is 1978 the stone started in 1963 about Charlie Watts is a completely different drummer At this point he is opening and closing the hi-hat in very bizarre places They're playing punk rock or what's supposed to be punk rock respectable and whip comes down Um, which is really just very pure rock and roll. They're all two chord songs and a lot of twang a lot Chuck berry a lot of country in them, but to listen to him playing the drums It's incredible What just happened and yet, you know, it just just moves along They weren't playing punk rock in the sense that the sex crystals and the Ramones or the clash We're playing punk rock all who have whom had great rhythm sections and very effective in what they did This is sort of more of like what the rolling stones thought punk rock should be like Yes, more of the attitude of punk rock, you know, people forget, you know Also, I'm I'm an old guy and I came up with all the punk rock and people forget that You know, it was attitude and it was music and and yeah, it's hard to play because it's hard to play like The Ramones. It's really impossible to play like that. I think you know, I may be the only person in history who's ever called the Ramones virtuosos And it was just I very very rarely give drum lessons, but I'm since we're all locked down I've been giving some uh online drum lessons to some of my friends kids just to keep them their hands busy But I always show them the Ramones to say like, you know, this is it one two three four That's the lesson but look how hard it is to do with precision with effectiveness drive You know, there are million bands I know that can do it, but I only know one who ever did a good enough That's a great example of a band that's on the surface is like, oh anyone could do that and it's like well, no Not not not at all. You know, there's there's so much to it. It's nearly impossible. So yeah, but the punk rock thing You know, it was not something that a bunch of millionaire rock stars who were which is why they recorded that record They're being accused of being bloated. They're being accused of being drugged out They're accused of being disconnected from what's really happening in the street because they are rock stars. They are the old guard. They've become You know, they're the corporation they've become part of the problem about the solution And they take it to heart and very well They should and they come out with this record with songs like respectable and whip comes down and one thing is punk rock was never about Money punk rock is about having no money. So it's only a serenity to which the songs are going to relate But they played so good. They came they answered the call with such energy at such brio You know on such vivacity and such venom and it was like the sleaziest lyrics They ever came up with and what's also important note too is that's the record that had missed you on it Right. So they're playing punk rock and they're also their biggest hit a disco song at a time when a lot of rock and roll fans I don't know if you recall There was a disco sucks movement. Yeah, they hated disco at the time a lot of people Hated disco music out of hand for various reasons and I've you know, it's very You know trendy, of course in certain intellectual circles to say that disco anti disco movement the disco sucks movement Was based on homophobia and xenophobia because you know, it had such a strong african-american Latino and gay roots, but I think honestly The people in the midwest were getting disco We're getting a watered-down version and basically just had a bunch of littered skittered fans and ted nugent fans Who didn't want to wear gold chains and wear these clothes because their girlfriends told them to Yeah, and by that point disco was over anyway because the music had to become bad But the rolling stones were into black dance music way ahead of the curve They were listening to black great black dance music and you know in the early 70s before you know, it had hit You know the mainstream of america Man, I mean don't forget they they knew marvin gay. They were there they played with james brown So for them to play disco It was just an extension of what they were already doing It wasn't like pink floyd says hey, let's put a disco beat onto our record because you know some some suit told us to and Yeah, it worked at a big hit, but exactly. Yeah, you know, no it's going disco. I mean Yeah, it it makes me think too that like it's just the term disco like miss you is such a great song and if you didn't It just like yes, it is disco But like if all that other disco didn't exist and that was what disco was Then everyone would love disco if that makes sense if you didn't have all the water down here disco You got to listen to the tramps, you know, you got to listen to disco inferno You got to you know, you know listen to the earth wind and fire and all the really great black dance music That is definitely qualifies as disco, but all the stuff that came before Um the bg's and staying alive staying alive is a great song But the whole era sort of brought it into the shopping mall Mm-hmm And like anything else like punk rock like like jazz like like blues like modern art like hippie culture The second someone realizes you could make money off of it. The mainstream some corporation is just going to co-opt it Right. Yeah happen every time hip-hop was considered, you know an outlier in you know music in the Bronx And you know something that was kind of like an underground You know practically avant-garde movement until someone realized you could sell soda pop with it And it became embraced by corporations, you know, and these are writing big checks That's the way it goes Happened to punk rock, you know more than once Now let me um, I want to talk about some gear stuff two things So obviously I want to talk about charlie's drums, which are just sort of a unique setup The u-fip symbols and all that stuff, but but first I've always been intrigued Maybe it's my kind of engineer side of things audio engineer side of things I want to know about the mobile recording studio Oh, that is a thing of such I fantasize about having one of those, right? Yeah I mean, what do you can you share a little bit about it? I know that other bands they lent it out and it would be like Led Zeppelin's using it and it's that they're you know estate and all this stuff What's the deal with that? Yeah, it's not like an ice cream truck. You just drive up and And it's there. I mean we're talking about it. So I think what's the actual name of the Rolling Stones mobile recording Uh, I mean it is it's like it's a it's a truck. It's a recording studio And yeah led Zeppelin uses used it and um Because they led Zeppelin had a castle So yeah, bring around the stones Uh, you know, I think they used it. Um, you know, it's funny to say, oh, we recorded this at mix house at star grove Have you ever seen a picture of quote-unquote mix house? I mean, you know, it's like twice the size of marlago Yeah, of course, you know, so it's you know, it's a little shock macaques with a record. Um I'm not a gear obsessive But I would love to take this to a place we talked about to the ufib symbols is charlie's rediscovery of the china symbol And if you talk about this it is a little bit inside baseball But even my non drummer friends are like, oh shit, you know, I get it. You know, you're right because the china symbol was a thing that by You know by the late 70s, you know belonged in prog rock bands mostly, you know It was guys with double bass drums hitting that thing. I call it the confetti cannon of the drum world Right, it's like And it's just sort of like an effect symbol and charlie waltz starts using it around the sum girl's time And there's no precedent for this for a straight ahead rock and roll band to be using it. It did appear china symbols in Big band an old-time jazz like yeah Dixieland error when it was part of a guy's contraptions And maybe they don't even know that the drum set is called a trap set because it was contraptions And if you go look back and see, you know, the guys playing with count basic or we are strong You know, they'd have temple blocks and tam-tams and gongs and you might see some weird china symbol in there as well As well as like a bicycle horn, you know, these are the contraptions and you know, thankfully charlie hasn't insisted on using a bicycle horn under the record, but Yeah, but the china symbol pops up and it sounds really cool And if you start watching them in 1978 he's got two of them now because he has that swish knocker He keeps on on the right but that one on the left and he just Wangs it and he just beats the living hell out of it uses as a ride symbol But it offers yet a new dimension and sound to something that had already been very established So I think this is so great that charlie lots is still evolving to the point. I mean, it's all over I mean every record after some girls But even on their blues record blew alone so much they cut a few years ago God, it was already spent more time than I think his past since they cut that record He's using a china symbol Like I said previously the realm of, you know, you know rushes and You know and yes this of the world on a howl wolf song and on these old chicago blue songs and it sounds great And there's no precedent for it Yeah, it's just like, okay. I've got this thing. I'm gonna use it And it sounds great. It's so charlie It's it's a beautiful percussive piece of nuance that I don't think anyone else would have had I think most engineers or producers would say get that thing out of here. What are you crazy? He's like a trendsetter. He's effortlessly saying let me bring in a china and a swishknocker and uh, it's gonna be great But I bet if another drummer sat at his drums and played it it wouldn't be As great as it is if charlie's doing it, of course not because the sound is in your hands You know, I mean, you know, I mean talk to any, you know, I mean You know dwayne eddy used to always say the twang's not coming out of my guitar. The twang is in my fingertips Yeah Yeah, that's so true and he uses the old speed king pedal And he's got the gretch set up and and even the fact that we're just said before it was a ufip Which is an italian cymbal brand which i'm working on doing an episode on ufip for everyone listening but um It even that how many drummers in america are using ufip cymbals? I mean, it's I know their splashes are super famous and everyone likes to use those but um That flat italian ride that he you know allegedly found in like, you know an alleyway that someone threw up That's become his main symbol. Um, and that's the charlie what sound the charlie what snare drum sound Is something worth addressing to and this is goes beyond the gear This has to do with the way it's recorded and the way it's been produced And there's a came a point and I think it's like tattoo you this I address this And simply for the drummer as well when the drums on tattoo you are so freaking loud and so sharp and percussive They're practically over modulating Um, I would love to do it. I'd love to have the conversation with you sometime You know, but I like the greatest snare drum sounds of all time and I think that's um You know the martha reeves of the vandela song nowhere to run I think that is like one of the great sounds later. I just found out they were they had some they were using them Changed the kind you put on snow tires Back it up and that's why it sounds so good because it doesn't sound like any other motown record and I mean, there's certain, you know, obviously john bonham's got this great sound And there's just a few things like wow this sound is great and charlie watch. So This is one of the smart things they did chris kimsey, uh, the engineer and bob clear mountain and mixed it they ran From a mic a mic that's charlie signal and don't forget that a lot of that stuff on tattoo was Recycled it was outtakes and odds and sides ran it through An amplifier the darn amplifier in a bathroom and mic that and ran that back to the board So it's got this crazy trashy sound on it. It's very aggressive. I mean it starts on Start me up Also, by the way the greatest example of a rolling stones mistake They start the song, you know Backwards on the one in the three not the two and the four and somehow managed to correct it the first two beats And you know turned up this colossal cock up into a bag of cash Which is exactly what they're so good at Man, I didn't I didn't know that was like a mistake. I always thought that was just kind of a cool like charlieism They do they do it a couple times, you know, they do it on other songs If you listen to get your yas yas out it's right on the beginning He starts in I think maybe he just can't hear it He comes in on the wrong beat and has to sort of double up on the snare on the snare of the bass drum To get it back to a normal two and four on the back beat I love that they keep it and they keep it and that's the version they keep, right? Yeah, of course, right? Because um Listen to it. I think the introduction to star star. I'm uh It's only rock and roll. It's kind of weird like sort of Squib thing drum. I don't even know what that one is, but it's just wrong except it's so cool and sloppy and great I couldn't imagine it last thing, you know Making it to the final product and any other band's record and yet there it is. It's so cool It's just it's just so right. It's so them But so the snare drum sound though gets really big and aggressive on tattoo you and like like the song neighbors and and hang fire it's really incredible and Every record after that the snare drum just sort of keeps getting louder and louder. It seems I think they realized That even if they were making bad records and they certainly made some very bad records um Making dirty works and there weren't even all the studio at the same time and Keith has shown up midnight work until Early in the morning and you know make showing up at noon and leaving before Keith gets there And no one's talking to each other and it sounds like it They're realizing that the drums are the thing that really signifies The sound of their own songs There's something about the way what charlie watts is doing and if you listen to it like their last record of originals A bigger bang the first song is saying that big it's like this sped up drum roll We're just kind of catching up to the open cord Keith or mic plays It's the sound of charlie and it just keeps getting loud on voodoo lounge Like the first five songs i'll start with charlie watts without the guitar. Yeah charlie And charlie has become sort of like the the signifier of the band You know, they realize like all of a sudden they realize what they've got for a long time to realize it But it is the signal sound of the band The most level-headed least flashy guy in the band Is i mean i would describe him i'm sure everyone what is the rock Of the band he's the guy that can get along with everybody I'd say the book he's it's kind of like, you know It's kind of like he's the star of this british sitcom You know trying to keep the peace between like some cross-dressing You know singer and a drugged up pirate lead guitar player And he's the guy that kind of can get rich the differences between them with jack sparrow's dad Now personal life wise charlie's been married for a really long time hasn't he yeah Is to charlie and famously uh who he met before he was even in the stones And you know, I mean it's one of those people say it's a rock and roll love story because I mean look at everybody else. I mean the way mcjagger spreads his scenes like the captain kirk or rock and roll You know, he's got kids on every planet. Um You know and you know and kids has kids are romantic and you know, we know those stories But charlie got married and stayed married You know by all accounts, you know very happy and Lovely richly supportive wondrous relationship. They live out of the limelight on a farm Man, yeah, I met his granddaughter. Uh briefly. She was walking around. Um the backstage area at that show I went to which again, I was like, this is what where the hell am I what's going on That's granddaughter but um He famously and I don't know if you know a lot about this part to talk about Because I guess he's pretty private about it to some degree. He's a famous collector. Yes Um, and and our friend dawn would know more about that But he talked charlie talks about it because he's a he's a drum nerd. Yeah, like like we all are right It's just a matter of degree in budget. I guess At some point he collects he collects things. He collects civil war memorabilia. Um He oddly collects old cars, but doesn't know how to drive Um, he says he doesn't know how to drive. Yeah, he never learned how to drive Yeah, you know, you live in a city sometimes people don't right? Yeah from london And I grew up in new york city I I mean I do drop but I know a lot of people who never learned because you live in new york city I I mean, I don't have a car. It's one of the great things about living in new york city Well, and he's probably driven everywhere. You know what? I mean as a stone. He's not driving But he's got apparently, you know, so as like a model a You know, who's a was out in this backyard that he could sit and start up But he can't really take it But apparently his drum collection I mean he owns bits and pieces of your famous drummers collection going back to the early jazz days And I know he's thrilled when he gets, you know, hey, I just got one of 20 williams symbols Or you know, or you know, I used to belong to sin cat litter dave tough some of his, you know, big band heroes Um It's weird. I personally don't fetishize drum equipment. You know, I play I play a silver sparkle Ludwig super classic set which to me is like the I know it's like the ultimate thing and it's the only drum could I've had you know forever and ever and I Don't really think about it. I fetishize guitar. It's a lot more to be honest with you You know, um, well, I mean at some point to me a floor tom tom is a floor tom tom You know, I you know, the funny thing is I remember when I bought this set This is the second drum set I ever owned and I bought it in the late 80s For that I had this rogers set and I don't know why I bought it Maybe it was on sale or something like that. Um, but I had sort of it kind of kind of beaten up And I didn't have cases for it and dragging it around in New York when I was in a punk rock band It just it's gotten really really beaten in it. I needed it and I went to One of the better boutique drum shops in New York City and I said I really want like green sparkle, you know, I really 60s I think I saw John Bonham playing that green sparkle blood wings. I really love great. They said, what are you nuts? No one wants that kid. They don't make that anymore And at the time I just wanted to do the regular size drums too Meaning the conventional nine by 13 tom or an eight by 12 tom I didn't get it up the nine by 13 and 10 by 14 and of course the 16 I'm 16 four tom tom But at the time in the 80s power toms for the thing and they were selling all these drums that were deeper Right and yeah, normal for the rock and roll And they're like, you know, we don't make drums like this. You're like living in the past You know, what's wrong with you? So they called up blood wig. They're nice They said, oh, we can put together a set of all the old sizes And we have enough silver sparkle to do one drum set. I said that is great. That was perfect And but within five years everybody was playing sparkle drum sets, of course, you know, yeah Now you can get champagne. You know, I used to love the slingerland champagne sparkle That's what I do to kind of kind of lost after and fetishized a little bit his finishes more than, you know, the round Badge, you know, Gretcher, you know, certain errors I mean too many drums need to be wood They need to be maple and they need to sound open and they need to sound good I think the problem is most guys don't know how to tune their drums Yeah, for sure one thing and it's some people just don't know how to record them Which is absolutely. Yeah, and you know, and charlie has been fortunate in both cases that he has, you know He knows what good drums are supposed to sound like and he works with, you know Great engineers the best guys in the world who know what the Rolling Stones drums should sound like yeah, and I think Obviously don being being the guy who's there with him and I think and I think it's the same for like keith where a lot of their guys They've had their techs for a long time I know keith has had his guy forever, but It's just it's like a thing of just trusting people to take care of your equipment and all that stuff and And it's funny too because I was reading something that that again our friend don mccally wrote earlier on a speed king Ludwig speed king Facebook page talking about how he goes through and looks for hairline cracks Every day before the show on the three speed kings he uses to make sure that there's no problems I mean it's It's about thinking ahead that makes you on a level you have to and everything is about redundancy I mean how many how many how many bass drum pedals do you think they travel with? Um, how many drum sets? I mean, I you know, I mean, I haven't played the drums Uh on a gig in a while just sort of like it's I don't know There's a time when I I spent all my whole life playing the drums I've put all over the world playing these punk rock bands that kind of almost sort of made it But big enough that we played in japan we played in paris we played in london opened up for the ramones all over the world We did a lot of great stuff But new york is a very unfriendly place for drummers if you live in an apartment in new york city forget about having a drum set Yeah, you know, I'm not even allowed to have a piano in my apartment. It's too loud And I started I started playing guitar more and more and and it's working for me But I always bring two guitars to a gig. I can't believe guys who bring one guitar to a gig even to play a bar Gig you know to play my local bar for you know, 40 minutes because what happens if I break a string I mean knock on wood. It's happened once in 45 gigs. I don't break a lot of strings But the one time you do It's not fair to the audience. It's not fair to the other guys in the band. You put so much work into this thing You look like an amateur Hey, you got the bass player tell a joke while I change the string or make a repair. Oh man, you got to be ready You know, whether there are five people in that bar or whether there are 80,000 people in that stadium That's just being a professional you can't You're at that level You don't see them say oh, can we stop? We need to restart because a snarehead broke or something. I mean literally there would be Like a tech who would switch out the drum while they're playing between beats. I mean It's at such a high level that it's just Insane and like you imagine if charlie waltz bass drum started slipping like I remember these gigs that we used to play they'd be playing, you know It wasn't a cinder block or something in front of the bass drum or You know or the the claw the thing they used to use didn't wasn't locked into the carpeting well enough The drum started slipping and I'd be pulling it back and that doesn't happen to charlie waltz. Of course. No, it doesn't How many high hat clutches? I mean you think charlie's clutch ever slips like it ever opens up accidentally when he's playing miscue No, I think don's got that on on lock That's awesome. Well before we wrap up and actually hear more about your books your other books Any other fun, you know charlie information from the book any any key stuff you want to you want to hit on before we Wrap up. I I think you know charlie is a soldier I mean, he's a gentleman and I I think you know He's he's a warrior poet in the classic sense and what I was saying before is really you asked Why does charlie waltz matter? I think you know, that's I mean obviously the premise of the book and And I think anybody who gets into it sort of understands the poetry, but it's real simple I mean the guy could swing a battleship, you know, and if it don't swing it don't mean a thing a lot of guys play Harder, but no one really plays heavier if you know what I mean because that swing is the thing Like you know one thing we didn't touch on either is like How much swing there really isn't like they're early heavy drummers or something I have to talk about You listen to john bonham If you listen to the early black Sabbath I mean it's obvious these these guys were listening to gene krupa and lee belson and buddy rich and max roach You know and that's where they were learning from because they didn't have rock and roll to drop out they didn't have All this time and you know for someone now to like say hey, you know, it's really easy to play like the rolling stones You know, think again Think again think again This is you're listening to a guy who learned literally sitting at the feet of the greatest bluesman in the world And there's no one to replace it Yeah, and you know, it's really amazing if you go on youtube you look like how to play like charlie waltz You will find almost nothing Because it's interesting. Yeah, I've never thought about there's nothing to explain a lot of people will there's a couple guys explaining that He lifts his stick up, you know on the two and the four he doesn't hit the high hat You know in unison with the snare drum of the two and the four with this very common normal And that's kind of a stylistic ticker charlie waltz But that's easy to explain But that's it and yet if you look up how to play like neil puritt They're like kind of like 35 000 videos of guys in their bedrooms playing flawless versions of tom Sawyer Exactly because you can learn because you can learn that but charlie there's nothing to learn It's just you have to live it. You have to it's about a commitment to the thing, you know Yeah, I don't think you're born with it. I think you're born with the open. It's openness to accept it Yeah, you know, I mean no one's born writing Poetry but to become a great poet, you know, you immerse yourself in it and you learn from other people And you keep your ears open and you know, and you don't get impressed by You know flash and and it's sizzle over substance You know, you realize that the competition isn't first of all, but it's not a competition and the concept of who's the best Really is not relevant. That's the question you're asking You know, you don't really belong in the conversation because oh, but who's the best drummer? What difference does it make who's the best rolling stones drummer is the question you need to be asking? Yeah, there's No doubt that he does not it just He doesn't care Like he cares about a lot of things, but he does not get caught up in those types of like Things he he does all he cares about is doing his thing and being charlie watz and none of the other superficial stuff matters He doesn't have what I call the suburban jock mentality of virtuosity You know, which is how many notes you can play per measure and you know There are 30 guitar players and 100 drummers that we can name off the tops of our heads that are all about that And charlie is about the song. He knows it's his job to put the song over it's his job to put the band over It's his job to make the singer sound great And that's it. You have to give up some of your ego when you come through the door. There's a zen to all of this And and yet he's the guy that gets largely the most sustained applause at every stone show these days he's kind of like a beloved member of the group where I think people relate to him and just like They have a connection to him Just as this solid he's just a sweetheart of a guy Yeah, and he's put up with michael all these years and that deserves its own kind of you know award Um, yeah, but he's the glue. I think people know that longtime fans know he's the guy Yeah, absolutely Cool. Well, mike, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and then take it on home here And we can wrap up on that and some other books you've written. I mean, you're a You're an author my friend. You've you've got quite a few books under your belt Yeah, yeah, this is kind of what I do. I always only ever wanted to be a writer and a musician I don't know somehow I made it work. It's kind of unbelievable and very fortunate cat So yeah, sympathy for the drummer why charlie lots matters is obviously why we're here in my most recent book and It's available wherever Books are sold and amazon and whatnot. Although I it's tough times But I I strongly encourage people to support their local independent bookstores if you can find it online from an independent bookseller Um, I mean me I make the same amount of money on a carer, but I really should support your independent local bookstores It's very important. Um, but I got here through a very odd route. My first book was called I have fun everywhere I go Um, I used to work for high times magazine the the marijuana magazine. Yeah, um, this is after I had worked for, uh penthouse magazine and some girls magazines as after I dropped out of film school I sort of sort of was having this kind of dual career working for a kind of sleazy magazines Which I just found worked and they accepted me and it worked and turned into a nice career Now on the other hand I was playing in these punk rock bands that were kind of catching on And we were playing uh all over the world Berlin paris like tokyo like I said and just trying to to balance these things and you know I'm still making records. Uh mike Edison.com. Please visit me. I'm gonna have some new stuff and some surprises Of course right now the whole world is on hold. Um, so everything's a little weird right now But yeah mike Edison.com. Please visit me and there's lots of writing and there's videos and um, you know, I've uh It's great. It's really hard to you know, make it as as an artist, especially You know in the 21st century, you know people seem to think content should be free and I feel bad for You know, it's weird Bart. It got easier to make music over the years Now everybody's got a garage band or a laptop or you know, when I You can make a record sitting in your kitchen table And we have computers. I mean jeez. I mean imagine You know, you know, Charles Dickens scratching it out with a quill pen Um, but you know when I came up Uh, we went to recording studios that were you know large and expensive and difficult to use There was no internet and just to get a gig at the corner bar I mean meant having to go there and wait for the guy to show up And if the guy didn't show up, you have to go back another night And it was it was a different world and I think all of this um kind of flows into This book sympathy for the drummer Is that like this kind of old world experience that just isn't there. I mean, I'm a dinosaur I really These jobs I used to have like, um, you know writing for dirty magazines and Playing the drums the kind of punk rock bands I used to play for these jobs don't exist anymore Yeah, but they may definitely made what I do now much more powerful and stronger for knowing it and hopefully You know in the same way that like the Rolling Stones are connected to a very very important past And I really kind of fear time when people My my niece told me, you know, she's uh couldn't Name a single Elvis Presley song. I really kind of broke my heart. Yeah, you know, she's You know, I said she's 16 and said you can't name a single Elvis song and she's just sort of shrunk and said, hey, it's not my generation Um, she's uh couldn't name a song. It's like when is the first generation that's gonna come that's never heard of Bugs Bunny This kind of thing's horrified me, but I think the Rolling Stones Will last forever and I'll tell you why and I think because the rhythm And the and the blues and and the sleeves and the rock and the roll and the drugs and the fashion and the sex And everything that they traffic in everything that has made them so great It will definitely go out of fashion or will come in and out of fashion, but it will never go out of style It's so built on such a primitive instinct. It really comes from the heart not the hands It really comes from from the hips, you know, it really is and it's about sex. Let's be honest I mean, when you listen to the Rolling Stones, you want to dance and the dance floor is where the revolution always begins And that's why the Rolling Stones will never fade away Beautifully put that's a great ending Everyone can go to mike edison.com. That's e d i s o n mike edison.com and Again, thank you Mike and I want to give a big shout out again to Don McCauley who's always just a great public show and Friend of both of us and just a great guy in general Don's enthusiasm and encouragement has been incredible. So yep. Thank you Don And thank you Bart for having me and for everybody who's listening, you know drummers. We're we're breed apart You know, we are no one dances to the guitar solo No, we're the best that keeps coming up in episodes where people say that they're and it's so true There's something special about drummers. So um, I'm glad that you're you're echoing that point today Damn straight Awesome. Thanks mike. Thank you Bart If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast