 Welcome to the BCV channel. I am your host, Pastor Seco Woods. Please do the following. Please like, subscribe, share. Hit the notification bell at the bottom of the video that wouldn't want to go live or post any content. You'd be one of the first to view it. Also, if you'd like to support this mission financially and you would like to do so through the donation links below, we thank you first and foremost so much for doing that. We do appreciate it. It helps keep the channel going and our operational obligations to a minimum as well too. So we definitely appreciate that. Thank you so, so much for that. Also, if you'd like to become a body lifer, you can become a body lifer by clicking the donation links below at the bottom of the video. A body lifer is an individual who continually and consistently and desires to support this channel and Love, Life, and Marriage with the Woods financial. You can do it again through the links below at the bottom of the video description here on this channel. Also, if you'd like to support the BCV merchandise, you can do so as well by clicking the donation or clicking the BCV link rather, just below the donation link. And it's also ticked across the screen as well too. BCV merchandise, we have all of our hats and other merchandise as well there for you. And you can check them out at your leisure. We do appreciate it. And thank you so much for your support in that regard. Also, moderators, thank you so much for joining. I appreciate your faithfulness and your support to keeping the chaos and the confusion down. We do appreciate that. Also, Facebook family, we thank you for joining. Brother Kevin, sister Cassie, welcome. I see you over there on the Facebook side. Please share this video. If you can on your pages and on your platforms, we do appreciate that. Thank you so, so much. YouTube family, I'm going to give a little roll call. Thank you as well too for joining the live as well too. Definitely appreciate it. Rightly dividing the work. Appreciate your brother. Welcome to the channel. Sister Sheila, good to see you as well, sister. Welcome, welcome. Of course, my lovely bride. She's always here in the house supporting and keeping me encouraged with the content, testimonies and testimonies. What's going on, my brother? Good to see you. Good to see you. Brother AT, good to see you. Vision and servant, good to see you as well. Please go over to her channel, Apostasy Files on YouTube and support her work. Her content is very informative as well. Please do that. We do appreciate it. And yes, as my wife said, please like as you enter into the live. We do appreciate that. Let's get the likes up if we can, please. We have 23 that are watching right now and have nine that have liked the channel. So please, if you have not done so, please like the channel. Please do so. We do appreciate that. Thank you so, so much. Brother Bobby, good to see you. Good to see you as well. Thank you. And also Stevie Rankins. Hello, how you doing? CG, good to see you as well. Good to have you here. Glad everybody is here. Thank you so much. All right, this is part two. This is gonna be part two. And part two came earlier today because I was thinking about the counseling aspect. We keep hearing about the counseling that women receive and the counseling that they had been told at Grace Community Church and at the master's seminary, master's university. And we have, I know people have been curious to know what kind of counseling are these individuals receiving? What kind of counseling and information are being given to the members at Grace Community Church at the master's seminary? What kind of training are they being given as well too regarding these abuse cases? I mean, it's not just one. It's not just the Eileen Gray cases, not just the Wendy Gray cases, not just the Karen Caldwell cases. It's many, many others. And I believe that once MacArthur is off the scene, once he is taken home, that there are gonna be other cases and other individuals that are going to breathe a sigh of abused relief and a sigh of relinquishment of fear and they're gonna be coming forward, just like Ravi Zacharias, unfortunately. It is going to happen because again, the fear factor is a real thing. It is a very real thing. So people are going to come forward, people are gonna speak up but of course you're gonna have people defending and covering and making excuses and caping for them. And some are not even gonna say a word, they're gonna speak loudly by their silence as they are doing now, as they are doing now. And what we're called to do, we're called to be our brother and sister's keeper. That's what we're called to be. And so anytime we are able to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves to defend the cause of the weak, to defend the cause of the innocent, then we should be able to do that. We should be able to do that. And not only we should be able to, but we are commanded to do that. Gracious me, welcome. You say, finally made it to the beginning of the live. From New Zealand, hello, hello, how you doing? Good to see you. Thank you so much. And yes, happy birthday to brother Bobby Dean. May God bless you with many more years to come. Yeah, they're gonna swear it's all good. Absolutely, unfortunately so. And the reports of abuse and tolerance are lies. They say, yep, they're definitely gonna do that. Greetings, it's Deshaun. They're good to see you. Good to see you. So let's get right into it. I got a few things I wanna cover. Don't wanna be before you all too long, but I wanted to get this information out because it is important. I do have a testimony from a former graduate of the master's seminary, of the master's university, rather, I have a written testimony of a former member. It wasn't given to me directly, but it is public record. And so this sister's testimony says a lot and it speaks volumes. But first I wanna lay it out in the foundation, the biblical foundation for us as believers and how, on what God expects of us as Christians regarding abuse, regarding mistreatment of our fellow image bearers, regarding injustice of any kind, injustice of any kind. Psalm 82 verses one through four. Verse one, the Bible says, God takes his stand in his own congregation. He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked, he says. Salah verse three, vindicate the weak and the fatherless and do justice to the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy, deliver them from the hand of the wicked. Do we see this? I mean, this is what the word of God teaches and tells us and demands that we do. That we are to vindicate the weak and the fatherless. Verse three, do justice to the afflicted and the destitute. We're commanded to do that. Rescue the weak and the needy and deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. We don't allow them to stay with those who would harm them, abusers, things of that nature. We're called to do this. We're not called to sit back and let injustice in the church abuse of any kind go on because of who the favorite preacher or Bible teacher or theologian may be. God calls us, he commands us to protect, to defend and especially and particularly to men. And this is what he calls us to do. And it's a non-negotiable, by the way. And these are things that I believe the church have been derelict in their responsibilities and their duties to do so. What makes us sit back and watch sin and justice, ill treatment, abuse of any kind occur among God's people says a lot about our love to God because the Bible says if we love him we will keep his commandments. And if we keep his commandments, one of the commandments is we love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we love our neighbor as ourselves we're gonna treat our neighbors as though we are the ones that are experiencing the injustice, the abuse, the ill treatment, the harshness, the verbal abuse. Some people think verbal abuse is no big thing. No, that's not what the Bible says. The Bible says that reckless words pierce like a sword. That's what the Bible says. If the tongue of the wise bring healing then we know that reckless words pierce like a sword. James says out of the same mouth we bless God and then we curse those who have been made in the image, in the Imago day, an image of God. He says out of the same water, out of the same fountain rather comes both blessing and cursing. He says my brethren, he's talking to Christians, these things ought not to be. It should never be in the characteristic of any believer that we're known to be abusers, that we're known to be individuals, brothers or sisters who tear each other down. And that doesn't matter if it's in the church house or if it's in your house, if you are a man and you are verbally beating your wife. I mean, aside from the physical aspect, but if you're verbally tearing down your spouse and you are verbally mistreating her, you are verbally condemning her and making condescending remarks. How would you like it if God would do that to you? Because when God rebukes us and when God gets on us, he does it perfectly. And he knows exactly how to bring discipline and pain to the appropriate areas where it needs to be corrected. And I'm talking to Christians, I'm not talking to the world. The world can't do what God's word has commanded us to do because we have his spirit. And when we do this, man, when we go contrary to the word of God, the Bible says we grieve his spirit. We cause his spirit to feel anguished. We break the heart of God when we do those things. That's why he says grieve not the spirit of God. And so we're not talking about, or at least I'm not talking about perfection. I'm talking about our daily striving to put to death the deeds of the flesh. And one of the deeds of the flesh that the scriptures teach is that when we are railing and making false accusations, or when we are clamoring or using clamorous speech, yelling and shouting at our spouses. That's the form of verbal abuse, gentlemen. And I use the words, gentlemen, in air quotes, because you can't be a gentleman if you're tearing down your wife. And ladies, you don't get a pass without either. Your tongue is just as sharp. Your mouth is just as cutting as a ginsu knife, as a scalpel. The Bible says a wise woman builds her house, but a foolish one plucks it down with her own hands. And so we ought to ask ourselves the simple question. Am I walking in the spirit when I find myself responding to my spouse, my children, in ways that I know grieve the heart of God? We will have to honestly conclude that we are not. And now it's one thing when we do it at home, but it's another thing also, not making it less, but it's also another thing when the church that we should go to for help, for healing, for comfort, for guidance, for direction, for counsel, when they fail and some intentionally fail to do what they have vowed, what they have made a covenant promise by God to God and before the people of God that they would shepherd the flock of God's people, that they will be faithful under shepherds of his people. So that when they stand before God, they can with a pure conscience, not perfect, but pure conscience in the regards to how they treat it and how they have shepherd it and how they have guided and fed and led and protected God's sheep. They can say, Lord, you know that I by your grace and by your strength have shepherd it your people and that you have entrusted to me faithfully. I did not allow the wolf to come in and we're not talking about false teachers. The wolf can be an abuser. Didn't allow wolves to come in until the sheep fold and ravish and abuse your sheep. I protected them. I kept them from harm. It's one thing when we talk about doctrine, it's easy for us to talk about, yeah, yeah, we preach some doctrine, we preach against the wolves. When we have the very wolves that we claim aren't that are wolves and they're doing the most damage to God's people. And so with a clear conscience, I believe and I pray that anyone that is watching this video and you are a teacher, you are a leader, you are a pastor, you are an under shepherd, you should ask for God to give you the grace to lead his people in such a way that when you stand before him, you can like the apostle Paul in Acts 24 in verse 16, say that you lived your life with a pure conscience before God and before men. Acts 24, let's look at it. Acts 24 in verse 16. Paul says in view of this, I also do my best to always maintain a blameless conscience both before God and before men. Notice he's not saying that he always does it right, but he says, I do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience. Before God and before men. I don't know if John MacArthur can say that anymore. I don't know if he could say that he could agree and align with what Paul the apostle said. I don't believe any of the elders that remain can honestly say that they have lived and have maintained a clear conscience, a blameless conscience before God and before men. Not in light of what we've seen, not in light of what we've heard, not in light of what we have now been made privy to, they can't. And that my brothers and sisters is a shame, which is why I want to continue with what I have come to discover and have come to have been brought to my attention, biblical counseling. Again, biblical counseling. There's a blog, well in fact, let me do this. Let me do this first. I want to do this first before I go to the blog. I want to set the tone here. That's what I'll do. I want to set the tone. I'm going to go to the source itself before I go to a secondary source. I'm going to go to the source itself and the source that I'm going to go to is what I found this morning, which made me do this part too. And this is straight from the mouth or from the hands or from the library of John MacArthur. Believe it or not, he teamed up with fellow elders at Grace Community Church and they collaborated together and wrote a book titled Biblical Counseling, an introduction to biblical counseling. And what I want to share with you are just some excerpts of the book regarding their position and view on abuse and counseling and homework. Now, interesting, as I'm about to read this, let me go back for a second. As I'm about to get ready to read this, some of these things, I guess it reminded me of the training and the teaching that my wife and I had when we sat up under biblical counsel and biblical counseling ourselves. We actually are biblical counselors and we have received NANK counseling. It's actually NANK stands for Nuthetical Association for Nuthetic Counselors, National, excuse me, National Association for Nuthetic Counselors. And I think they've now changed the name to A-B-A-C-B-C. I think it is Association of Credit at Biblical Counsel. I think it's what it stands for now. But nonetheless, we were directly trained by individuals who received this type of teaching because they received it through NANK and they received theirs through the Master's Seminary and Master's University and received it from professors and teachers that some authors and contributors in this book wrote. So although we don't have a formal degree, we have informal training and countless hours of informal training because we got it directly from the individuals who basically were matriculated their doctrine and their teaching from NANK. So we pretty much know what we're talking about. And now I will say this, let me say this at the outset, I do believe and I do support biblical counseling. I make no apologies for that. I make no qualifications for that. I do support biblical counseling. I believe the Word of God is sufficient. I make no bones, I make no hesitations with that as well. No apologies for that as well. I believe that the Word of God is enough. I believe that the Word of God is sufficient to deal with man's mental and social and physical issues. If it was not, then we would not have Psalm 19. We would not have Romans 15-14 where it says we are all able to newt the tail, to admonish, to counsel one another. The question is, how are we administering what God has given us to do? Now, it is not to say that I would tell people not to take medicine or whatever. That's between you and your doctor. But if you're talking to me and talking to my wife, we're gonna ask you questions. And then allow you make the decision for yourself. But we do not hold to integration counseling. I do not believe that the Bible and psychology should be mixed or intermixed. I don't. When it comes to counseling, I'm a segregationist. Psychology has their place, they do what they wanna do over there, but don't bring it over here into the spiritual and into the biblical realm. And if you think about it, psychology is where you get the word suke from, which means soul or mind, the immaterial aspect, the immaterial part of man, what we don't see. So, again, just wanted to put that out there because I don't want people thinking that I'm against biblical counseling and that I'm against everything that John MacArthur and others teach. I can divide and I can parse and I can hold fast to that which is true. And the things that are not true, I don't hold to it. Simple as that. But we make no apologies about what we believe. We believe that the word of God is enough and it's able to sustain us and it's able to keep us if we desire to be kept. But just wanted to put that out there. But in this book here, I found some things that I believe contradict what we know to be true regarding how they deal with abuse. And I don't want to use victims, but I hope you all understand the spirit behind what I mean by that. Abuse survivors, abuse victims, those who have been affected by abuse. Their philosophy, what they have in writing versus what they've said are two different things. So let's jump right into it. This is chapter 10 of the book, Introduction to Biblical Counseling. And it was actually in my library, in my Bible software. Talk about Providence, huh? Ain't that, ain't God good? And this is, again, a proper page, I believe page 139, I believe, of the book. John MacArthur's Introduction to Biblical Counseling is the title of the book. And so it says, quote, when people have been abused, mistreated or neglected, they are usually tempted to blame the abuser for their problems and to respond negatively to anyone who reminds them of that person. The biblical counselor does not approach such situations by ignoring what occurred in the past, but listens attentively to their history, identifies with the pain they have experienced, then lovingly and patiently deals with their sinful responses. Now I want you all to follow that, okay? They said that the biblical counselor does not approach such situations by ignoring what occurred in the past, but listens attentively to their history, identifies with the pain. Listen to this, have identified with their pain, that they have experienced, then lovingly and patiently deals with their sinful responses. And I would say if there are any. And seeks to refocus their attention on their resources in Christ and his way of dealing with their past. And I'm just gonna try to read the highlighted portions because I haven't highlighted for reasons for your attention as well too. Look at the bottom portion of this. Biblical counselors should never excuse or justify ungodly behavior in themselves or others because of past or present circumstances. God's word is unequivocal about that. Again, biblical counselors should never excuse or justify ungodly behavior in themselves, in the counselor themselves, okay? Because of past or present circumstances. God's word is unequivocal about that, they said. Counsel given, and this is another, I mean, all I'm doing is reading their receipts, ladies and gentlemen. Counsel given without the acquisition of life context information may be irrelevant, inappropriate, clinical, sterile, and even hurtful. Without pertinent historical and current facts, biblical counselors may make the same mistakes that Job's counselors made and actually add to the distress of counselors. To use the words of Job, they may be guilty of tormenting, insulting, crushing, and wronging people, the very people they are trying to help in their attempt to do good, they may actually do evil. Talk about your smoking guns. I mean, I don't know how this hits you all. Again, it just, it screams hypocrisy. It screams hypocrisy, it screams, it also screams injustice to those that have been told otherwise. To those who have been told to stay with the abuser, who have been told to just, that they're being irrational, all of those things. This is very, this is very incriminating information. Page 151, I believe in the same chapter. Matter of fact, I wanted to read these Job texts for a second. Then Job responded, this is Job 19, 1-3. How long will you torment me and crush me with your words? Remember, they were accusing Job of sin. And they were supposed to have been there to help and to comfort him. How long will you torment me and crush me with your words? These 10 times you have insulted me. You are not ashamed to wrong me. And then I'm also reminded of Job 16 too, where Job says, I've heard many such things. Sorry, comforters, are you all? He's talking about Job's friends who came to help them. And he says, man, y'all not helping me at all. Instead of comforting me, y'all are crushing me. Y'all are killing me. And then of course, Romans 14, 16. Therefore, do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil. Page 151 and 52 of the book. Again, those are just joining reading from John MacArthur's introduction to biblical counseling. How biblical is the counseling that they have been rendering to people? Evaluating whether your counselies are mature or immature will determine to some extent the depth of the instruction you can give them, whether it should be solid food or merely milk. It will also help you to know how much you should focus on instruction, because if the person you are dealing with is a mature Christian, he or she will primarily need encouragement and support. Mature Christians with problems often know what needs to be done. Counseling becomes simply a matter of helping them to do what they already know is right. And mature Christians, on the other hand, often require extensive instruction before they are ready to take the steps necessary to solve their problems. Is this person unruly, faint-hearted, or weak? In First Thessalonians 514, you have heard me cite this before, the apostle Paul provided a third way of evaluating counselors. He mentioned three categories of people and the general approach we should take in dealing with each of them. And we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the faint-hearted, help the weak, be patient with all men. The first type of person mentioned is the unruly. Yes, yes, Testament, this is Lagos. Yep, yep, yep, this is not my Bible software, Lagos. The first type of person mentioned is the unruly. In the original Greek, this word is attackakos, which means to be out of step, to be defiant and rebellious. It speaks of someone who are disrespectful, listen to these words now, disrespectful, self-willed, and stubborn. And follow these adjectives in your mind when we read Eileen Gray's testimony, a brief testimony. You tell me which one this woman was and which person David Gray was and how they counseled these individuals, but I'll continue. It says the original Greek word means attackakos, attacktos, excuse me, means to be out of step, to be defiant and rebellious. It speaks of people who are disrespectful, self-willed, and stubborn. They are obviously set against doing what God wants them to do. Paul said to admonish these people, that is to warn them. He also said in Titus 310, that we should reject the factious person after a first and second admonition. If these people do not respond to our warning and merely want to argue, then we would be wasting our time to continue counseling them. And Proverbs 26.4 says, do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him. We do not want to allow such people to influence us in a negative way by drawing us into useless arguments or other unprofitable discussion. Therefore, we must simply warn them that the path they are choosing can end only in judgment from God and that we are available to help them when they are open to counsel. The second category of people mentioned in this passage are the faint-hearted. That Greek word is oligo speukas, literally means small soul. It refers to people whose souls have striveled up. They have become discouraged, weary, or despondent. Their problems do not stem from rebellion or obstinacy, but from a feeling of defeat and a lack of ambition. Instead of warning them or otherwise confronting them, Paul says that we should encourage them. I believe it is significant that Paul did not say it minus the faint-hearted. And in this ironic, I had been saying that before and never even had even read this portion until today. But he says, I believe it is significant that Paul did not say it minus the faint-hearted. Faint-heartedness is not necessarily sin. People can end up in that category simply because of difficult trials and disappointments that cause them to struggle with discouragement. Gus, which is the individual that they use in an example in this story, Gus may be in that situation. And because of that possibility, his counselor should have been more hesitant about rebuking him before the problem had been adequately interpreted. Sometimes I fear that we biblical counselors, listen to this, I fear that we biblical counselors are too quick to label discouragement a sin and call for repentance from people when we should first show them compassion and provide encouragement. The third group of people mentioned in Thessalonians, 1 Thessalonians 514 of the week. The Greek word translated weak is ostinace, which means without strength. And it is used most often to describe those who are physically limited. It is also used in a general sense to describe people who are simply deficient in some way. Their deficiency may be a lack of education, opportunities or finances or perhaps a physical problem. These people sometimes find it harder to do what is right because of their weaknesses. According to Paul, they need more than encouragement. They actually need someone to come alongside and help them do what they need to do. Do you all hear this? This is not my writing, this is from MacArthur. Introduction to biblical counselor. This is from his own writings. He says they need more than encouragement. They actually need someone to come alongside and help them do what they need to do. The Greek word for help is antichomai can be translated support or hold to. Some people have never had anybody be faithful and committed to them. They are accustomed to being criticized, neglected and deserted in their time of need. They have never heard anyone say, I am committed to you. I'm going to be your friend through thick and thin and I'm not going to give up on you. They need to sense that someone sincerely loves them and is willing to support them regardless of their deficiencies. That's page 151 and 152 of the book. Introduction to biblical counseling by John MacArthur and Wayne Mac. Page 198 is the last segment of this book. I wanted to read here. And anyone knows anything about biblical counseling, you know that they give assignments and homework and there's nothing wrong with that. As long as the homework and the assignment is applicable to the person's situation. So I'm going to read this and then you all tell me in the comments you all tell me in the chat what's missing? What's the missing ingredient in this assignment here? The writer says they're following assignment and I believe Wayne Mac wrote this chapter. The following assignment which I gave to the woman with the abusive husband is an example of homework that facilitates practice. I asked her to go over her plans for the first thing each morning. This reminding her how she planned to handle specific situations. She also prayed for about 15 minutes asking God to help her put her plans into action. Each day at noon, she went over her plans in her journal to see where she had succeeded and failed. She then thanked God for her successes and asked him for his help throughout the afternoon. When she failed, she asked God to forgive her and then asked him for help in changing in that area. Early in the evening, she reviewed the events of the afternoon and then did the same for the evening before she went to bed. Each day, she repeated this pattern and recorded everything in the journal for discussion in the counseling session at the end of the week. Specific homework assignments like this help counselors to practice the biblical truths they are learning. We should never let our counselors merely make a mental or verbal commitment to change. Instead, we should give them the opportunity to live out their commitment and make concrete changes in their lives. As they do this over time, new habit patterns will form and the old sinful ones will begin to disappear. Now, I just wanted to read that portion to you because I wanted to ask a simple question. What's missing in this? For these people that's being abused. What's missing? What's the missing element in this situation? Can anyone tell me? Probably you said scripture is missing from homework. Okay. What else is missing? And it's not necessarily the homework aspect that I'm talking about, but remember, the woman is being abused. So let me give you all a hint. The woman is being abused, okay? They're being abused. So how are they getting help? It seems to me that it's always the individuals that are being abused, that are being in the focal point, but not the abuser. There you go, right there. Exactly. Counseling for the husband. Counseling for the husband. Why is the husband, exactly. Thank you, Sheila. Another, there you go, there you go. A safe place to go. Remember, the woman, the author already said that she was being abused. She's in an abusive marriage. So you're given a homework. How about a haven? How about that? Just saying. Now remember now, they're talking about care and talking about love for the individual and making sure that they are heard and listened to and things of that nature, right? But it seems to me that that wasn't given to her. It wasn't given to Eileen Gray. And that's my point. So what I wanna do now, now I wanna go to an ex-biblical counselor's testimony. An ex-biblical counselor's testimony. These are her words. These are her words, not mine. These are her words. And I'm gonna read it to you. And this one I'm gonna read because it needs now to go on record. In case somebody may not be able to read this, I want people to hear what this woman said because she was a graduate of the master's university. She studied and went through biblical counseling when she was there. So let's go right over to it. And here's her website. Website is called The Awkward Spinster. The Awkward Spinster. And she gave her testimony in light of the CT article that Kate Shelnut wrote regarding Han Cho's departure from Grace Community Church. And so she gives her testimony and it says this quote, I am a woman who graduated from John MacArthur School, the master's college now called the master's university in 2006 with the master's in biblical counseling. I was very active in biblical counseling in the white evangelical world for almost 20 years. Because of this, I feel the need to voice some inside truths about how counselors were and how some still are trained to counsel women by Grace Community Church. The master's seminary, the master's university and many others in the biblical counseling world. Let me just say the facts exposed in this article are not at all surprising to many of us who came out of that world. Horrible and heart wrenching, yes, but not at all surprising. Nor is this article the first time many of us have heard about concerning counseling cases coming out of John MacArthur's vast sphere of influence, especially in the conservative white evangelical spaces in Southern California where many churches and pastors venerate him as almost Pope-like. Some evangelicals honestly believe his school and seminary are the only true Christian ones in the country, if not the world. Every time an article like this has come out exposing how women have been encouraged to stay with their abusers, even keeping their children with abusers, my DMs and texts blow up with messages from former classmates and counselors, all women. Notice, all women have been encouraged to stay with their abusers, even keeping their children with abusers. Since my DMs and texts blow up with messages from former classmates and counselors, all women who experienced the same things were told to counsel women in this way. We discuss these things quietly amongst ourselves because we know there will be repercussions in our lives if we speak openly. There's a cult-like silencing of anyone who questions even a tiny bit of John MacArthur's teachings, a closing of the ranks, anytime there is even a mention of possible mistakes made and a villainization of any and all who beg for repentance and reform as, quote, persecuting the church, end quote. I've lost best friends, mentors and entire church homes by speaking up against injustice in our ranks. As so many of us who are questioning what we were taught and masters have. I admire and respect Han Cho for speaking out against this to CT as I know a bit of how much it cost him. The case is brought forth to light in this article and others in the Roars report involve women who were at their most vulnerable, abused by their husbands. Sometimes their children were being abused too. These women sought biblical counseling from those trained by GCC and the schools connected with John MacArthur. Biblical counseling is his own brand of counseling. It's a movement that began in the 1960s with men like J Adams and Wayne Mack with the belief that, quote, sufficiency of scripture, end quote, meant counselors should exclusively use the Bible to help others through times of hardship. Well, I hope to that position and I believe that position is true, but I know that there's some disagreement and some debate with that, but that's fine. But I do hope to the sufficiency of scripture to deal with issues that are spiritual. But the writer continues, the biblical counselors who trained me looked down on psychology and other secular mental health practices unnecessary at best, dangerous and sinful at worst. In the past decade, there has been a slightly more liberal approach to biblical counseling than when I was trained between 2003 to 2006 with more involvement from therapists, psychologists, social workers, and people actually trained in domestic violence counseling and care. There are many good capable men and women who have been trying to change things in this bubble from the inside out. And there are churches and schools that teach these newer methods of biblical counseling. But there are other still many churches and Christian schools that teach the older approach and out of this stems much danger, especially for women. In John McArthur circles, we were taught a very strict patriarchal complimentarian view of women in marriage and the church and in life in general. This teaching includes submission and obedience in marriage and an extremely self-sacrificing approach to relating to one's husband. Requirements for wives include maintaining a peaceful and quiet demeanor, always giving the husband the benefit of the doubt, as well as endless forgiveness, prioritizing him over oneself and one's children. And rarely, if ever, considering divorce. This unquestioning obedience is sometimes taken to extremes like counseling women to have sex with their husbands even if they're not in the mood, don't feel safe and loved, or when it's painful so as not to push their husbands into infidelity. This idea of biblical self-sacrifice extends to telling women they should do their best to please their husbands by staying thin, putting on makeup and dressing up, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Otherwise they might provoke him to potential violence. And this endless forgiveness includes counseling women to take back their abusive husbands when the church deems they're repentant enough. Biblical counseling students were explicitly taught that if a counselor told us their children were being physically or sexually abused, spanking in other forms of corporal punishment the church didn't consider too extreme and emotional abuse didn't count, we were to tell the women to call the police and give her time to do so. If she didn't report it, the counselor was to report it to the pastors of the church with the expectation that they would call the police. This isn't quite what mandated reporting requires but pastors and late counselors of the church are exempt from mandated reporting laws in many states. This horrible, this is horrible and needs to be changed as soon as just need to be changed, excuse me, they should be held to the same standard of protecting children as secular counselors. In many classes, in my classes, excuse me, in my classes, we were told to take child abuse very seriously and utilize the governing authorities as God's extended hands of justice. To see specific counselors at Grace Community Church not following this protocol discussed to me. This is what they themselves taught me which reveals their hypocrisy and suggests their first priority is keeping cases of abuse hidden so that they don't reflect badly on the church. When it came to a husband abusing his wife, our teaching became murky. I was taught that we did not have to report such abuses to the police as a wife wasn't a minor and therefore there were no laws saying we must do so. Instead, we were encouraged, we would encourage her to self-report but the expectation was that most women wouldn't want to do it this way. We could help women get to a safe place but encourage them to do so temporarily with the eventual goal of reconciliation. Even if a husband cheated on his wife, thus giving her the one and only ground for biblical divorce recognized by John MacArthur and his followers, she should do everything in her power to reconcile with her husband for though God allows divorce in this instance, it is not required or preferred. Divorce for abuse was not considered biblical. As a counseling student, I was told that even legal separation should be discouraged because separation usually leads to divorce. So it was better for the wife to stay with a friend with the expectation it would be just for a few weeks or a couple of months. The church was also supposed to call upon the husband to repent, counsel him, hold him accountable to permanent change and to teach him how to quote unquote court his wife and win her back. The ideal outcome would be to send the wife back to her husband with a nice little bow on top. I must admit this was really the actual outcome. It takes more than this to change a violent husband and many never do change. One of my professors used this metaphor when discussing the case of an abused wife. She was a soldier in the great spiritual battle, a soldier fighting for the soul of her husband. Sometimes soldiers get injured, but they keep fighting. And how does the wife win her husband? Without a word, by her quiet and graceful righteous demeanor and endless patience and forgiveness, of course. This was based on 1 Peter chapter three verse one and two, which says, wives likewise be submissive to your own husbands that even if some do not obey the word, they without a word may be won by the conduct of their wives when they observe your chase conduct accompanied by fear. Many churches do not consider abuse a part of this equation and would tell the woman to leave. But my professor at the master's college told us about a counselor who went back to her abuse of husband to save his soul like he was a war hero. Even when she continued to be abused, he held her up as a great example of a Christ-like wife and a golly woman. One of the main tenants of biblical counseling is that you must help your counselors find where their own sin in the situation lies, the idol of the heart or the root sin. And this applies to everyone, even the victims of abuse. The idea stems from the Calvinist view of total depravity, meaning sin has infiltrated every part of us. Therefore, anytime we counsel someone, we must first ask them to confront their own sin as no one is perfect. So even if a wife goes to biblical counseling because her husband punched her, she must spend time agonizing over how she has not been the perfect wife and repent of whatever sins she committed against her husband. He is to do the same. Then they can come back together as the perfect repentant Christian couple. Do you see the danger here? Rather than believing the wife and counseling her to safety, she is held culpable for her part, quote unquote, in the abuse. Was she a nagging wife? Did she withhold sex? Was she too distracted by her job of children to focus on her husband first? The victim blaming can be subtle, but it's very dangerous and can tear these women down and push them into more danger. The examples of women not being believed when they go to biblical counselors about abuse are endless. Right now, I can think of a teenage girl who was raped at the Master's Seminary. Her perpetrator was believed instead of her and she was painted as a Jezebel. I think that's the same story that I read. I know of another girl who went to her dorm advisor for spiritual help and was referred to biblical counseling to a woman who then sexually prayed upon her. I know of a master's professor who sexually harassed students but was dealt with secretly. He was able to move on to other schools and churches and repeat his offenses there. He's not the only professor I know of there to whom this has happened. I also know of a young wife who went to a Master's Seminary train counselor because she was experiencing painful intercourse. She was counseled to keep trying because her body was his body and he might quote unquote, stray. Otherwise, it turned out she has some medical issues leading to the pain. The church never apologized to her. I can tell you case after case where biblical counselors trained by John McArthur schools and churches didn't believe women, harmed women, shamed women and never repented nor were held accountable. I don't want to disparage all biblical counseling in a world where therapy is prohibitively expensive and health insurance won't often cover mental health care, biblical counseling offers a free and affordable option for people to get help through their churches. It can build relationships and networks of support that secular counseling can't always offer. But some things like grief and loss, it is incredibly effective. And as I've said before, there are some remarkable people working under its umbrella doing important, life-saving, life-giving work, writing books, blogging, podcasting, teaching and counseling with God's love and great skill, trying to change it from the inside out. But for me, it felt like years of banging my head against the brick wall. Painful and injurious with no budging from the institutions. Whether a counseling gets compassionate, Christ-like help as opposed to harsh, victim-blaming mandates can be hit or miss. So if you're seeking biblical counseling, looking to the church or organization offering it and what they believe, as well as the individual counselor, ask good questions. And if you find this hurting you more than helping, look for better alternatives. There are many who still venerate MacArthur and his ilk as infallible leaders, but I plead with them to examine the evidence such as the very damning details found in Christianity Today and the Roars Report about how a grace community church is harming women and children who are victims of abuse. From my personal experience as a biblical counselor, I know that inherently dangerous and misguided methods of training and practicing in this field have helped lead to this harm, not only at GCC, but at many other churches and Christian organizations. These reports should discuss us and prompt us to call for accountability, true repentance and justice. There's something horribly wrong when a church defends abusers and pedophiles and helps them harm women and children. I need to read that again. There is something horribly wrong when a church defends abusers and pedophiles and helps them harm women and children. Psalm 82.1-4 tells us where God's priorities lay, protecting and enacting justice for the vulnerable rather than siding with the wicked. Our priorities should match this. God stands in the congregation of the mighty. He judges among the gods. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Defend the poor and the fatherless. Do justice to the afflicted and the needy. Deliver the poor and the needy. Free them from the hand of the wicked. In case we forgot what Han Cho has said, I'm not gonna read this, I will put this in the description link below this video, but I just have to read this paragraph again because it's incriminating and hypocritical on what John MacArthur and Grace Community Church and Kerry Hardy and any other counselor, any other elder has advised women to do. And now when they have made wrong and found it to be wrong, their response is sinful. Again, this is from Christianity Today, Kate Sheldonette broke this story, February 9th, 2023. Last year, Han Cho concluded Grace Community Church had made a mistake. The elders had publicly disciplined a woman for refusing to take back her husband. As it turned out, the woman's fears proved true and her husband went to prison for child molestation and abuse. The church never retracted its discipline or apologized in the 20 years since. So again, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, John MacArthur, Grace Community Church, the elders that are currently there in light of what they know now and in light of what this investigation that Han Cho, former elder of Grace Community Church, who was asked and who was tapped and tagged to conduct an investigation, now they know the facts of this case, all of them. Each and every last one of them are in unrepentant sin. As a lawyer and one of four officers on the elderboard at Grace Community Church, Cho was asked to study the case. He tried to convince the church leaders to reconsider and at least privately make it right. He said, Pastor John MacArthur told him to quote, forget it, end quote. I want us to read that again. He, that is Han Cho, said Pastor John MacArthur told him to quote, end quote, forget it. Forget what? Forget the fact that they were wrong. Forget the fact that 20 years later, it's proven based on the preponderance of evidence, the overwhelming flood and deluge of evidence that Eileen Gray was right and that David Gray, who sits in prison serving 21 years to life right now was wrong and should not have been protected, should have been the one who was excommunicated and never to return to Grace Community Church and Eileen Gray and her children should have been the ones protecting them they weren't. That's the point. When Cho continued to call the elders to do justice on the woman's behalf, he said he was asked to walk back his conclusions or resign. Just wanted us to see that. Just wanted us to want you all to see that. And yes, that is absolutely correct. And he was denied bail to the severity of the abuse. For 10 years, he is not eligible for a parole hearing for 10 years, I think to 2032, I believe. He was denied. He was denied parole. He's not able to even have his case heard again for 10 years because of the severity and the savagery of this man's treatment of his children. And if you read the court documents, it is sickening, it is sickening to say the least. And that's all I can tell you, very sickening. What I wanna highlight, and I'm not reading all of this, but I wanna ensure the hypocrisy. Remember, because I read to you, the biblical counseling, the introduction to biblical counseling, that John McArthur, that you can go to the website or you can go and purchase you one. Nothing that I read in that book sounds like these people here. Nothing, absolutely nothing. This is Eileen Gray's petition, sworn statement that I'm holding in my hands. And I just wanna read to you how she was treated by these biblical counselors and Carrie Hardy was one of them. She says, against our better judgment, responded that it's David Gray and I, which is Eileen, obtained counseling from unlicensed counselor from Grace Community Church named Carrie Hardy. Before Mr. Hardy became a pastor, he was a pharmacist, responded, which is David Gray and I had eight joint counseling sessions with Mr. Hardy in one short meeting. All eight counseling sessions were taped recorded with the full knowledge and consent of all parties. Add one private session with Mr. Hardy. In his declaration, Mr. Hardy makes many false statements. All right, let me stop. Hold on, Jack 17, this says something that I believe that is breaking. Jack 17 says, I was a biblical counselor for many years when I attended a Word of Faith church. And with all of the heretical teaching, never encountered or heard of anyone having experienced anything like this. My gosh. Wow. Wow. But hey, we wanna talk about charismatic, right? She declared in her statement, Mr. Hardy makes many false statements. He wrongly judges my motives and draws conclusions based on insufficient facts, as well as questionable information that he has received from responded who has admitted in writing that he has a problem with lying and slandering me. Mr. Hardy has not demonstrated Christian love in his counseling, his declaration or his actions toward me. I believe he does not have the best interest of responding or our children in mind. Mr. Hardy has repeatedly harassed, slandered, and emotionally abused me. He has also used intimidating co-origin tactics. In his declaration, Mr. Hardy states that he has other opinion that I separated from my husband because Eileen simply doesn't like David. The fact is I separated from respondent over his physical and emotional abuse of our children in his unstable, delusional, and suicidal state of mind. Respondent confessed to repeatedly abusing our children in writing. Respondent handed Mr. Hardy his four-page handwritten confession entitled My Sins Against Eileen and his resolved list. Respondent told Mr. Hardy that he had made these lists on his own and that he and I had gone over the first list on Sunday. Respondent confessed to his abusive actions that he had perpetrated upon our children and 37 things that he had done to me. Mr. Hardy didn't read any of it. Mr. Hardy didn't read any of it, but pushed it back across the desk to respondent. This is what it's telling. Mr. Hardy falsely claims, Mr. Hardy falsely claims that I never wanted to reconcile with respondent. That is false. Mr. Hardy told me that I should reconcile with my husband upon his own command and that of the leaders of his church. I have desire to reconcile our marriage and that is why I entered counseling with him. I have repeatedly requested that Respondent and I obtain professional marriage counseling since he repeatedly refused professional counseling for us and for himself, we remain separated. Professional counseling for us, excuse me, Respondent stated I would violate my conscience to do it, I cannot do it. My reply was it did not violate your conscience to kick blank and abuse the kids but it would violate your conscience to seek help for your marriage. Based upon that and the fact that Respondent has continually threatened me, lied, stalked, falsely accused me and has demonstrated emotional instability, I have chosen to remain separated and so protect my children from this abusive man. Here's what the counselor told to the counselor Lee about what she is now describing as abuse. Now remember, in the biblical counseling book and the introduction to biblical counseling that is authored by John MacArthur and several others and particularly Kerry Hardy is also a biblical counselor. So he gets his information and is teaching in his training from the master's seminary, master's university. Quote, on two occasions, Mr. Hardy said to me, you are irrational. The first time Mr. Hardy was telling me to reconcile with Respondent against my will. I said to him, I would like you and the elders to prove to me that you trust David with your own children and the children of the people in this church by hiring him back. I also said, when you restore his job, then I will know it's time to consider his return home. Mr. Hardy became noticeably upset and said, quote, you can't expect us to do that. You are irrational. You are making irrational decisions, end quote. The second occasion that Mr. Hardy called me irrational was on November 6, 2001. In this recorded session, we discussed Respondent's immoral behaviors without two daughters, his delusions and his chronic lying. We also discussed the fact that Respondent did not think that his immoral behaviors were wrong. His conscience was not working properly. Toward the end of this session, Mr. Hardy said, quote, it doesn't matter if he is not entirely repenting, end quote. I know we've heard this before, but some of you may not have, but again, this is the biblical counseling that these women are receiving and have been receiving when they report abuse to leaders at Grace Community Church, so-called Grace. He says, quote, it doesn't matter if he is not entirely repenting. She responded and says, wow, clearly Mr. Hardy did not seem concerned for the welfare of our children. When I told Mr. Hardy that I was afraid of Respondent and afraid to allow him to live with us because he was still unstable, lying, unable to judge right from wrong in relation to his own actions and had a long history of violence with his family, Mr. Hardy said, quote, you are irrational and proceeded to berate me verbally. He told me that he and the elders of the church were now telling me to end restraining orders and reconcile with Respondent. Mr. Hardy told me that I had wrongly separated from my husband. He also said, quote, it is not entirely biblical to run from abuse. It is not entirely biblical to run from abuse. He was referring to verbal and emotional abuse, yet I protested and told him, I'm gonna protect my children, not entirely biblical to protect my children. So Bush can protect America, but I can't protect my children. Mr. Hardy was seeking to put a guilt trip on one of his trusting parishioners. During our joint counseling session, Mr. Hardy was emotionally abusing me. I kept wondering why the focus during our counseling was on getting me to accept suffering and abuse from Respondent. I was being told that Respondent would be emotionally abusive again. Yet Respondent was not being talked to about why he abuses his family, nor did I ever hear Mr. Hardy tell him to stop doing it. He did not appear to care about Respondent's problems. One day Mr. Hardy said, quote, I don't care anything more than he won't physically hurt the kids. Past that, I'm not concerned, end quote. I did however hear Mr. Hardy over and over tell me that I was to submit to my husband, even when abusive, learn to accept his abuse by quote, suffering biblically. Mr. Hardy and Grace Community in the church did the very same thing the Catholic church did with their child abusing employees. They encouraged Respondent to work with another group of children without warning anyone about his child abuse and emotional instability. Mr. Hardy and Bill Shannon told me that they would not be renewing Respondent's contract. In this meeting they told me of their plans to end Respondent's job. They asked me what kind of work Respondent's can do, what Respondent can do, and so forth and so on. But let me read this because again, McArthur talks about sending people that we shouldn't send people away to other places or give them a place to hide when they're under church discipline. Remember that sermon that I gave to y'all? Restoring Biblical Eldership? They asked me what kind of work Respondent can do. I told them air traffic control and teaching. Mr. Shannon suggested sending Respondent to obtain a job at LA Unified, but I brought up the fact that he had abused children. One of the men said, quote, yeah, but a child abuse index had not been filed so he could still get a job teaching. I remember this is all recorded. This is all on tape recordings by consent. She said, again, I brought up the fact that he had abused children. One of the men said, quote, yeah, but a child abuse index had not been filed so he can still get a job teaching. End quote. Bill Shannon said, quote, LA Unified never calls us for a reference. The men discussed sending Respondent there to obtain a job. Respondent now works for LA Unified School District at the time of this whole case. Now he's in prison now, but. Mr. Hardy used cult-like tactics of coercion and intimidation when I withdrew my membership from Grace Community Church. From that point on, Mr. Hardy sent me five harassing letters and she dates the dates of the letters. He also talked to members of his church who then came to my house and harassed me about leaving Grace Church and about my separation from Respondent. Mr. Hardy stated in his first letter, dated, we don't automatically remove someone from membership. For that reason, we are leaving your membership status intact. So she wants to leave, the attorney, her, you can't leave. You excommunicate her, but when she wants to leave, you tell her that she can't leave. She said, does this church operate like a cult? I was being told I could not withdraw my membership of my own free will and so forth and so on. But I just want you to get the gist of what? The gist of counseling that she received and others. And in case you all think she's lying, the end result of Mr. Hardy's bad counseling is that my husband goes on without receiving adequate help and remains separated from his family. It's during the day of this letter in 2002. The children I suffered a plight of social rejection and are seeking to recover from his and Respondent's emotional abuse. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration was signed the 20th of day of August, 2002 at Panama Ramar City, California. Their name is signed at the bottom. Sound like blood in, blood out to me. But again, how biblical is John McArthur's biblical counseling, ladies and gentlemen? You tell me. You tell me. Because I'm confused. I don't know. Just going through the comments here, just reading the comments in the chat. And I'm done, just wrapping this up, just reading the comments here. Let's see. Make sure I don't miss anybody asking me a question or anything like that. Susan, Susan Walho, welcome. I never seen you before, but welcome. Thank you for joining. Okay. So I just want to make sure I didn't have any questions that was directed to me before I ended the live. So anyway, again, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, again, thank you all for joining. I ask for you all's prayers. I want to be faithful to what God has called me to do. And it has had its challenges, to say the least. Because of these things, of course, the attacks that come in because of these things we're doing, people are trying to get my channel shut down. They're trying to circumvent people from talking to me and things of that nature. So I mean, it happens, right? It happens, but I'm not going to quit. But I ask for you all to prayerfully keep up but I ask for you all to prayerfully keep us lifted in prayer. Not only are we dealing with this, but we're also dealing with just, you know, church, you know, we are now having to make some adjustments and some changes again, church-wise. You know, the stuff is just ridiculous, y'all. But my wife and I, we strive to encourage each other. We strive to, you know, keep each other, you know, lifted. But it's hard at times, y'all. It is hard. And so this is why I encourage body life. This is why we encourage each other to keep each other close, to keep each other lifted in prayer. I mean, to support channels as much as you can by sharing it, by, of course, liking it, thank you. There's 46 likes and there's, you know, 53 of you are watching. And so I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. Because again, it helps us to keep pushing and to do what we're called to do. And so thank you. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, it does sound like ABC on steroids, doesn't it? But yeah, so, yeah, we ask for your prayers. We ask for your support. Again, those who are able to support the channel, you know, please do so. You can do that first and foremost by liking, subscribing and sharing it, love life and marriage with the woods and applies for that as well too. We would really appreciate the support and the encouragement as well. And if you'd like to do that, you can do so by clicking the donation links below or you can also screen grab this, the ticker tape that's going across the screen. Those are the methods that we encourage people to go to, to use because YouTube sometimes is not consistently going and getting those who have been donated through super chats and things like that. So we want people to know if you're going through this, these means here, it definitely comes to us and we're able to have it expedited to our accounts as well too. And it helps us to keep the channel functioning. But you know, it costs money and it costs resources to do ministry. So we ask for you all support with that as well. And so we do appreciate that and thank you all in advance for that BCV merchandise. You can actually go there as well too and support the channel through purchasing gear. We have our website that is in the process of being constructed and we're looking forward to having that so we can add you all to our mailing list. You can be a part of what we are here that we are doing here on BCV and love life and marriage with the woods. So continue to keep us in your prayers. We do appreciate it so, so much. This week, Lord willing, I think I'm going to have a live discussion. It may even be a panel discussion with a Freemason, former Freemason and maybe a Freemason but we'll see if the Freemason is willing to accept the challenge. But I do have a former Freemason who has expressed interest on coming on to the live. It will probably be this Friday and we're going to talk about secret societies and Christianity and secret societies, how secret should Christians be in getting involved in organizations like Freemason and also with frats and sororities. I'm looking for people to join in that. I do have a brother and I think he's in here rightly dividing the word. I think you're here. He's pro-frat and I'm trying to get some people to join that came out of fraternities and sororities. So if you know someone that has, please email me, let me know if they're interested in being a part of that discussion. I would love to have them on and we can have a robust, real, biblical, theological discussion. But low one of this Friday, we're going to talk about Christians and secret societies like Freemasons, how secret is the Freemasons and should Christians be a part of that? So that'd be this Friday low one, I believe at seven central. So yes. So market calendars, I think would be a great, great live, good discussion. Again, so like the video, share the video, put this information out, let people know about it and we definitely appreciate it. 54 thumbs up and 52 are watching, man. We met the goal. Appreciate it, y'all. And for that, I give y'all a little air horn because y'all deserve it. Y'all deserve it. So thank you very much. Give you the air horn. And also give you the air horn. Appreciate it. Thank you all so much. All right, thank you, thank you, thank you. So anyway, you guys have a great evening and y'all know the drill. Whatever you do, do all to the glory and I've got. God bless. Thank you for sharing this night. God bless you. Good night.